Hello and welcome to the Somatic Approaches in Therapy Summit. My name is Kaleigh Isaacs. I'm the founder of the Awake Network and I'm honored to be joined here by Pat Ogden. Dr. Ogden is a pioneer in somatic psychology, the creator of the Sensorimotor Psychotherapy Method and founder of the Sensorimotor Psychotherapy Institute. Dr. Ogden is co-founder of the Hakomi Institute, a clinician, consultant, international lecturer, and first author of two groundbreaking books in somatic psychology, including Trauma and the Body: A Sensorimotor Approach to Psychotherapy, and Sensorimotor Psychotherapy: Interventions for Trauma and Attachment. So today I'm in conversation with Dr. Ogden about Sensorimotor Psychotherapy, and we're gonna be going over some key concepts, tools, and practices. And so thank you very much for being here with us, Dr. Ogden, we're really looking forward to speaking with you. Thank you. Pleasure to be here. So to start off, I would just love to hear your perspective on how the body can help bridge the gap when talk therapy has not been helping a client move forward or find the healing that they're looking for. The way I see it is that our body shapes itself around all our experience of attachment and trauma. So if we've experienced trauma, we might have patterns in the body like this that maybe indicate fear, maybe indicate that, you know, we want to, we don't want to show ourselves, we don't want to be visible. And talk therapy can work with those issues around it being safe to be visible or you're not in any danger now. But if the body is still like this, it's not gonna be fully resolved. And if you all who are watching, like I can feel it myself when I do this. If you do this with me, just do this and start to notice what happens. It's like I immediately feel... my heart rate actually gets a little faster. I feel, I don't feel quite as comfortable or as safe as I do, OK, then you can let it go, as I did when my shoulders are down. So our bodies can take us into old patterns implicitly, unbeknownst to us. And especially with trauma, you know, trauma first and foremost will impact the body because it impacts our subcortical, Instinctive defensive responses and our physiological arousal. And, you know, talk therapy is kind of around, I see it as kind of a roundabout way of getting arousal to calm down or integrating those defensive responses. I don't see it as directly impacting the effects of trauma where they hit us, which is in our body. So for example, if we have a traumatized clients whose hyperaroused and they're just "hahh" like this, their arousal is way up, we can try to talk them down and do visualizations or whatever around the trauma's over, you're safe, it's okay to calm down. But if the physiology is still revved up, we're not addressing that physiology directly. So the body, like through what we call somatic resources, we can calm the body down through self-touch, through grounding, through all kinds of shifts in our posture and movement that will impact the trauma where it resides in the body. And it's the same with them instinctive defenses. These are instincts, these are subcortical l instincts. Nobody has to teach us about fight or flight or freeze or feign death or, you know, fawning or cry for help. Those are inborn. We see it in infants. Some of Ed Tronick's videos, he's an infant researcher, there'll be a little baby who's upset. There's one video he has where the mother's angry. This tiny little baby puts up its hands like this because nobody ever taught it that, You should defend, those are instincts, but when someone has trauma, they develop patterns in these instinctive defenses based on what's worked in the past. And for many childhood trauma survivors, for example, what's worked is to freeze, to not move, to just be still, wait till it's over because fighting back didn't work. You know, you couldn't get away. You couldn't call for help because the person who's supposed to help you is also could be the abuser. So because those are instincts, we can't reinstate those empowering defenses as efficiently if we're just working with talk therapy. So we can, but we can track when we're working with, I'm thinking of a client who was abused throughout her childhood. And as she was talking, her hands would make this gesture, where they would lift up like this. And her body was telling us of a need to push away. But for her, if ever there was, if she ever made that motion, it just would have made the abuse worse. So, but in the safety of a therapeutic relationship, she could execute that motion and feel the empowerment of that. I think she said, it feels like hope. It feels like maybe there's hope that I could defend myself. So we can shift those patterns of defensive responses on a somatic level. And then it changes our beliefs. It changes our emotions. Gosh, I can give you so many examples of this. It's just fascinating. Like, I'm thinking of another client who had very early abuse, really in infancy. And, of course, an infant, you know, you can't really protect yourself by pushing away. And so her protection was to just dissociate. She went into kind feign death hypoarousal, so. It was really hard for her to even stay present in the session, you know, when we were processing this. So, and she was agoraphobic. She didn't go to parties. She didn't like groups. And we can imagine if you don't have the somatically felt sense of being able to protect yourself, and this is not a cognitive thing, it's a implicit sense in your body of being able to say no and protect yourself. Well, it wouldn't be very safe to go to parties, because you're just wide open, you don't have that capacity to set a boundary or to get space. So, um. We did work with different defensive actions, ringing actions, pushing actions. And I remember she came back the next session and said, well, I went to a party and she said, and it felt OK, you know? And she said I felt like I could go and I could feel safe. And her hand made this reaching gesture, you know, of proximity seeking. And I thought to myself, yeah, once you feel safe in your body, that you have that capacity to defend yourself and protect yourself, then you would feel more comfortable reaching out to others or going to parties and interacting with others. I don't know how people can get that sense just through talk therapy. I know there's a lot of research that talk therapy works and I know it's very effective. But from my perspective, it's the experience of it that makes the difference, that physically felt experience of I can keep myself safe. And that's a somatic experience, not just a cognitive one. Thank you, Pat, that's a beautiful example. And I'd love to a little bit later, get maybe into some specific details about defensive actions and how you might, going through how you work with a client more detailed in a direct way. Sure. And before then, I'd like to ask you about something else that you brought up, which was the importance of resourcing when working with trauma. And I was hoping you could say a little more about the role of resourcing and what that might look like in session. And maybe also share some specific ways that clients could be supported in resourcing in session. Oh, sure, of course. Well, most traumatized clients have difficulty with arousal. It becomes dysregulated. That window of regulated arousal, what Dan Siegel called the window of tolerance, it can be very narrow. And then get triggered very easily into a hyperarousal or a hypoarousal. And it's so critical on so many levels. To bring arousal back into that window when it's hyper or hypo aroused because that dysregulated arousal is, it's bad for us in so many ways. It's bad for our health, it's bad for our psychology. We don't feel comfortable, we don't feel safe. So resources help a client feel the agency to bring that arousal back into the window. So we work with it different in a variety of ways. I think one of the first important elements is for clients to start to recognize when their arousal is approaching the edge of that window. Because if they don't recognize the signs, the arousal can get way over or way under, and then it's much more difficult to bring it back into a window. So we teach, we help clients learn about the signs of that. Like when they're triggered, what happens in your body? You know, does your heart rate speed up? And you can think about this. You know when you're triggered we all react differently, but there is some common elements that often happen. We might tense up, our heart rate might speed up, we might wanna get away, you know. We might feel discomfort or like butterflies in our belly. Our arousal might just go up or it might go down. We might feel like the energy is just draining out. When we recognize, when we learn those signs of from our own body, then we can recognize when arousals starts to get dysregulated and then we wanna help clients find a somatic resource that works for them. And this is very specific to a client and their body. There's never one size fits all. Our bodies are so different, y'all. So different, the way we live in our bodies, where the tension patterns are, how we breathe, how we move. Like if we just look at our bodies, Kaleigh, I mean, we're so different, you know, the way we're sitting in our shoulders, everything, the position of our heads. Yours is a little bit to an angle. Mine might be too. I don't, I'm not sure. But our bodies are so different. So we want to help folks find a somatic resource that really works for them. And sometimes it's take some, let's try it. Let's try things out. And let's find what works for you. And once it works, then the client has a forever resource, you know, not that it doesn't change over time and not that there can't be more than one resource. So we talked about how trauma affects the body and somatic resources then will directly impact that effect on the body. It can directly help our arousal calm down. So, For example, just try this with me, just some self-touch, just placing your hands on your body. I like to put mine on my chest, maybe you have one hand on your belly, maybe for you it's a hug, maybe it's even a stroking motion, maybe it's a massage of your shoulders. But if you find a soft touch that feels right for you right now. I'm checking, my hands automatically go to my chest, but I wonder if that's right for me right now? You know, no, I think this feels, yeah, this feels more resourcing for me right now, so find a soft touch that feels great for you. See if you want your hands still, if you want your hand moving. And then just notice for a second what happens. And this may or may not be a resource that has an effect on you. Like for me, I immediately take a deep breath, my shoulders let down, I didn't even realize there was a little tension in my shoulders. So this is good for me. The self-touch, yeah? So you can check out what happens in your body. If your breathing deepens, if your heart rate slows, yeah, I feel like everything's slowing down for me. But don't worry if that didn't happen for you, you know. I had one client, for example, who was, he had some really severe trauma. And he talked about how he loved to pet his animals. And he did this kind of, he said it just feels so tender towards them, you now. And I asked him if he could bring some of that tenderness to his own body. And he brought his hands to his chest. And his arousal immediately started escalating. He said, I shouldn't be doing this. And he said, I shouldn' be doing, I don't deserve this. I don't deserve it. I shouldn't do this. He said it's bringing back all the bad memories of when I was abused. It wasn't the right resource for him. Definitely wasn't right resource. So we stopped. Said, OK, you know, that's not the right resources for you. What turned out to be the right one for him was what we call a stop sign. Just putting your hands up just in a stop. Like try that with me, just stop. And feel the effect on your body. I'm sure it's different from the self-touch. It's definitely different in my body. In my body, I feel like I feel it in my spine, and I feel much more, I'm protecting myself, I can take care of myself, nothing's going to come in that I that I don't allow. But it's very different from that comfort. But it's still, I can feel how it it works with my arousal. Yeah. So for some people, this could t bring their arousals right into the window, you know. For others, this wouldn't be the right resource. One client that we, we tried this resource early on and she immediately got frightened. She said, if I ever said, no, the abuse would get so much worse. I would just get hurt so much more. So that wasn't the right resources to start with. Yeah. So we have a variety of resources, you know, there's taking a breath, um, which very interesting. Very complex resource. Because many trauma survivors, they have this kind of like if you just if you do that with me, like, "uh oh," you know, and for some survivors that never fully relaxes. And can you feel that tension in your diaphragm? And you know so if it if your body has that tension and the diaphragm, and you try now to take a deep breath. I mean, it's just frustrating, right? You can't, I can't even get a deep breath from this posture. Yeah, so let that go, don't sit in there very long. So I've had so many clients who come and say, my yoga teacher, my therapist tried to get me to take deep breaths and it just didn't work, it was so frustrating. And it could be because the diaphragm's tight. In which case you do other things like maybe you bend forward a little to relax the diaphragm and then take a breath. Or it could also be that this client doesn't need a deep breath, that they already are almost hyperventilating. I found this out about myself. Deep breaths never worked for me. And I mean, I've been doing yoga for 50 years, but whenever anybody would say, take a deep breath. I would just be like, not me, you know, and I started to discover I'm an over breather, I breathe, I take in too much air. So deep breathing does not relax me. What actually relaxes me is holding my breath. And that'll balance the the chemistry inside, you know. So breath isn't the simple resource that many of us I used to think it was. It's not that simple. When used in the right way, it can be a wonderful resource. Like, I was, I didn't, I only discovered this, I mean, fairly recently in my career, that if I hold my breath, that balances the chemistry and then it's easy to breathe. But if I try to take a deep breath, it's just, it doesn't work because I already am over breathing. Yeah, so you gave us two sort of contrasting specific movements that might be resources for different clients or in different moments of the self-touch and kind of exploring that caring quality and then this, which is more sort of a boundary. So if you're exploring that with a client, what are some ways that that might become a resource for them? Is that something that they could? That they would literally do that motion when they're in a moment where they're feeling that they need to be resourced? Or could you walk through that a little? Yeah, absolutely. You know, and I do want to say that, you know, you develop these resources by tracking a client's body as well. It's not just random, you know. Not just pulling it out of a bag. No. You track and you explore and then the client practices those resources when they at home, you know, like I had one client where this kind of resource and she would take her arms and make a bubble around herself as well to feel her boundary and at work she said whenever she felt triggered she would go to the restroom and do this inside the stall until she felt calmed down. Other resources like this might be a little more, you might be able to do that in public. You could definitely take a breath in public, you could definitely like try just pushing your feet into the ground, feeling your feet to help you get grounded. These are the things that nobody would notice. Even a little smile, there's so much research that shows if you smile. Your brain doesn't care if it's an authentic smile or a fake smile, it starts to produce endorphins. So these are all things that we explore with our clients until we find the resources that fits their body and then they practice it. Now if I can say something more about the complexity of those resources, which I hinted at, but should we do a little experiential with this maybe? Yeah, that would be great. We like experientials. Often what a resource that people do is like an alignment in the body and more of an upright posture, right? So if you all try that on just sitting really tall as if you're, you know, the top of your head is being lifted up. And there's research that shows that this kind of good posture or aligned posture, it supports negative mood recovery, it supports implicitly accessing times in your life where this posture was operational. So you might be, like I had one client who remembered her confirmation as a young girl in Catholic Church and how proud she was. When she took on this posture, that was a really positive memory, right? So this can be a really wonderful resource that has scientific evidence that it actually strengthens our confidence and helps us with a more positive attitude. OK, now try this with me. Try just letting your body slump and just almost without kind of like, we'll see what it is for you. You know, what is this slump posture? Is it, does it feel, you know, hopeless, does it feel defeated? Does it just feel exhausted? Do you feel like, oh, why bother? Do you feel like it has to do with not having value? Like, what is it for you? Like when I go into it, I go like, oh, I try so hard and it doesn't work. You know, why even try anymore? It's a real defeated kind of posture. Yeah, just check it out what it is for you. And then imagine that this is a part of yourself, you know, like dissociative clients have different parts inside from trauma. Like if this is just a part of you, right, that's defeated or hopeless or feels like you have no value. And then come back into that aligned posture. Come back, lifting your body up again. Take a moment. And what happened to that other part, that other aspect? Like, I'm like, where'd it go? I don't really feel it in this posture, right? And often in practice, if we're not aware of dissociative parts in a client, we can override a part with a resource that other parts aren't in agreement with. Other parts are going, that's not me. No, you're too visible. I'm not safe when you're in this posture. And if we are not aware that the client's likely to come back and go, oh, I forgot all about that resource. I didn't practice it, because they weren't completely in alignment with it. That makes sense, yeah? So try this, try this one more thing because this is one way to work with it, if you go back into that slump. Take a moment to sort of access or sense that aspect of yourself like that you know whatever it is for you and and pretend it's a part of you just pretend okay this is a part an aspect that is defeated or hopeless or you know whatever. It doesn't want to bother anymore. And when you have a sense of it, kind of in slow motion, start to come into that alignment, but stop the moment you feel like you're really losing touch with that part of you. And then pause and maybe like for me, it's about right here. I'm definitely not fully aligned, fully upright like I was and play with that interface a little bit. And you might even like, I noticed my hands automatically came to kind of my dorsal hinge where that interface is. And so you can feel that part that feels defeated or hopeless, but you can have a little bit more alignment. Yeah? Just a little. So that you're including both parts. Does that make sense, Kaleigh? You're kind of resonating with that. Yeah, I love that. It's, you know, thinking about parts work in general, and just yeah, the wisdom of not overriding with positivity, or in this case, the sort of upright, positive posture is a very physical representation of that. You can't be that way in a way that's integrated, but feeling in the body exactly where it is that something might be getting overridden is really powerful. It really is, and I think as a somatic, you know, psychotherapist, we want to be aware of that because we can, I guess, I don't know, I don't want to quite say do harm, but we, well, we could. We could do harm. But we can definitely be ineffective. I'm thinking of a 13, a young girl I had who was suicidal. There had just been a suicide in her school. She was very smart, but she was bulimic, suicidal, hadn't spoken at school for two years. And she, this was just a consultation from the school. And she came into therapy like this. And my first thought, of course, as a body therapist, was let's find some alignment in your body. But she's suicidal, you know? So the last thing I wanted to do was to override this part of her, which was the part that felt so horrible about herself that she wanted to die. So first we had to work a little bit with that part. And she did go into this worthlessness, nothing I do matters. You know, nothing I can say matters. She went into this worthlessness, but we also were able to kind of comfort that part a little bit. And then at the end of the session, we explored this. And she said, she felt more confident when her head was up, but she got super anxious. You know, this was this part that didn't want to be so visible, but she felt it in her tummy. So she ended up putting her hands on her tummy to connect with that part and she could have a little more alignment. So now, you know, we find a way to communicate with the parts without overriding. In that case, I think it could have actually been dangerous if we'd just gone with this. Mmhmm. Because the other suicidal part could have gone underground and gotten more energy, you know, honestly. And so, yeah. Yeah, so we're speaking about these specific tools or ways of resourcing, and I'm sure we'll get into others as well. And as you mentioned, it really starts with a sense of listening and tracking. And then that's where there's an exploration coming from. And I just so appreciate everything you just shared. And this what's happening for me is just this emphasis that these somatic approaches are very potent. And so if there's a sort of change agenda. "I'm going to tell them to fix their posture or if they just do this a little bit that," it's kind of magnified and to be really just have a lot of care with that. So I'd love if we can speak a little about what you brought up earlier about starting with tracking and maybe even sort of run through the process of what that might look like in session of how you're feeling the client and how some of this exploration might arise from that place of feeling. Yeah. Well, tracking, people often think tracking is just looking at the body, but it's not. You track with your whole being, you know, your intuition, your eyes, your ears, all your senses. You know, I think of Fritz Perls. Fritz Perls used to say, "I'm the bullseye, the arrow hits every time," which is a little arrogant maybe. But what he was talking about was that he would open up to his client, and then what was important would just impact him. You know, and I think that that's important. We have to like open our system and have this kind of gentle focus of tracking where we're seeing what jumps out, you know, in their words and in their body. I always tell students that whatever the presenting problem is of the client, whatever they're talking about, it's gonna show up in the body. Body is going to reflect it, period. And it's your job to find out how the body reflects those difficulties because then that will give you the way through, you know. So if a client's talking about oh, I never get any support, you know, I just, I always think of my clients. She was like, she felt so helpless and she never got support. Nobody ever supported her and her body was just limp. Her arms were kind of limp. So I asked her kind of as diagnostic just to reach out. In fact, try it. Just, I'm not gonna demonstrate, just reach out with your arm or your arms and however you want and notice how you reach out, I'm not demonstrating because I don't want you to copy me. Notice how you reach out. Notice your facial expression, the tension or lack of in your arms. Is your arm halfway like this? Or is it fully reaching out? Is it palm down? Are you pulling back at the same time? Are you both hands? Are you eager? Are you leaning forward? Are your hands palm down. Whatever it is, you might wanna, you don't have to hold your position. However you reached out, I'm telling you, it has worlds to do with your attachment relationships, because this is a proxy, you know, John Bowlby taught us that these are proximity seeking actions that are inborn. Nobody teaches a baby how to reach out to the parent. But if like with this client, she reached out like this [arm halfway out], like halfway. And the words that went with that were, why bother? Nobody's gonna be there. And there was kind of this helplessness with it. And that was the story of her attachment relationships. So when we're tracking, like hearing her story, there's no support and then seeing her arms kind of hanging by her side, then we can do a little experiment. Well, just try this if you're willing. What happens if you just reach out? You have to be careful not to demonstrate it because then they'll just mirror neurons, they'll copy you. And that will just take you to the depth so quickly. Which, as you were saying, Kaleigh, body therapy is very powerful. So we have to be aware of that. It can go too fast beyond a person's tolerance if we're not careful. But we're looking at how, we're sensing and looking at and feeling into how the body reflects and sustains whatever is the clients bringing. And that might kind of bring up some specific suggestions of resourcing or other movements that you might play with. Oh, totally. Yeah, like that reaching for her was diagnostic, you know, and I knew it would hypothesized it would take her deeper, which it did. And then we could work on that whole issue, you know, child parts came up and help change the beliefs that, that she learned that nobody was ever going to be there to support her. So, yeah. Pat, I'm wondering if you could speak a little bit to, obviously there's a lot happening that sort of feels like a bottom-up approach, I would say. Can you speak about sort of also the top-down and the bottom-up and how those two meet in Sensorimotor? Yeah, yeah. Well, that example I just gave was a good example, because we're exploring this reaching out, right? And then she comes up with, nobody's ever there, why would I reach out, nobody's there, which is, you know, more cognitive, the beliefs. So we're really integrating top down and bottom up, especially when we're working with relational issues like that. One of the ways that we stimulate the cortex in Sensorimotor Psychotherapy is through mindfulness. I mean, this is really a hallmark of Sensorimotor Psychotherapy. I think that we are working with how experience is organized because it's you know, we can all have the same experience. Say we all, we all get fired from our job, whatever. Like we all have that. Okay, we're all going to organize inside very differently around it. Some of us are gonna say, well, I was doing a good job. You know that's on them. I don't know why they, you know, I feel confident with my work and we're gonna just go get another job. Others of us will be angry and our bodies will mobilize differently. Others of us will collapse and say, I'm never gonna be able to get a job I want, we will all react to anything that happens in our own individual way. So we're never working with the content of what happened. We're always working with those patterns of organization. And that is really critical. What was your question? It tied into your question, now I can't remember. Oh yeah, just curious about the intersection of the sort of top-down approach and the bottom-up approach. The top-down and bottom-up, so right, and mindfulness. So we use mindfulness to study the organization of experience, right? And so that automatically is integrating top-down. It's not a pure bottom- up approach like massage or most yoga, and this is directed towards trauma. It's just bottom-up. You're just working with the body. But we're constantly working with the beliefs, you know, the emotions and the body. So with trauma, we do focus more on the body, because the way we see it is that it's the shifts in the body that is going to say change the belief, like the client I I mentioned earlier, who never felt safe in groups. Well, it was a shift in her body where she felt that experience of being able to make herself safe, that shifted her belief and enabled her to go to that party, you know. So we're working with trauma, really focusing on bottom-up. But when we're looking with attachment and relational issues, we're also working with the beliefs that are formed and the strong emotions that are formed in our most closest relationships. So there's a lot of emotional processing, shifting of beliefs, and as well as working with a body, so. Thank you. Kind of top-down and bottom-up. And sort of bringing it back to this theme we've been exploring around working with trauma. I was wondering if you could share a little bit more about the role of the therapist in making sure that the client doesn't reach a state of overwhelm or going beyond the window of tolerance, sort of how you would approach that and some things that you take into consideration. Well, the first thing that I would say to any therapist is you are gonna go over that window of tolerance and be gentle with yourself. It's not a failure. This is how you learn, you know, you can't help it because you, especially if you have a dissociative client, they're often, it's very hard to tell sometimes when you're going too far and when you're not going far enough. And it's tricky because if you just stay in the middle of that window, you're not gonna really be effective in helping your client change, you know, if arousal is always regulated. So you've gotta go to the edges. We really talk about, we work at the edges, you now? But if you go too far over or too far under, if your client's arousal gets too dysregulated, then it can be counterproductive. One of the things that we really want to do is help a client recognize their own signals of going too far over and too far or too far under. So we'll often, like a client, like I remember a client who he had violent outbursts, you know, he was a veteran, he would just, he never hurt anybody, but he would destroy property and all. And so we worked with that as a memory, like OK, before you started destroying property, what was going on and how does your body feel? And then we, and we moved, you know, slowly into when he destroyed the property so that he could get familiar with the signals in his body that was queuing him in to that he was about to, I mean, I think of it as his fight response just took over and he just lashed, oops, lashed out. But that's empowering for the client to begin to notice those signals, right? And I think that's really, really critical to teach your client. You're not always gonna know, you'll do your best. I mean, we all know the signs, the heart rate goes faster, a person might start to tremble, they might find it harder to breathe, their eyes might bug out when they're hitting, going over the top edge of that window. You'll track those things and then you'll say, okay, let's stop for a moment. How are you doing? Maybe we need to slow down. Let's come back to that resource of your hands on your belly. And I want them to be in charge of it though. So you're sort of tracking and sharing with them what you're seeing as you go along, helping them to. Yeah, but yes, I mean, you have to pick and choose what you're gonna share. There's so much going on in the body. But if you see these signs of hyper or hypoarousal that's more than just working at the edge, I might say, you know, how you doing? I wonder if this is too much, should we slow down? Like, you what's going on inside? Can you tell me what you sensing in your body? You know almost, I always feel like I almost want them to come to the decision that yeah, I need to slow down. I mean, sometimes I'll just say stop. But for the most part, I want them to recognize and make that decision, because that's what's empowering, you know? Not me just saying, OK, time to slow down, you now? Does that make sense? Yes. I mean, there's sometimes when you have to take control. Like I remember one client, she had a flashback in the middle of the session that was so powerful that she was just like gone, you know. And I just, then I have, you know, you take charge. OK, stand up, look at me. You get very matter of fact, come back in the room, you know, and so there are times when you take charge, that it's necessary. But for the most part, I would rather facilitate the client coming to that realization. So for those who are participating that might be trained more primarily in talk-based therapies, what are some ways you might suggest for them to bring in some of these principles or practices of Sensorimotor into their work? Well, first of all, I would say, start getting curious about the body. That's the main thing. Start getting curious about your own body, what your own body does and how you move in different situations. So you can start to develop a sense of that the body has significance and power in our well-being, you know? And you develop that from the inside, but also, just getting curious about how people move, how people go to the mall and watch people. I used to do this in the 70s with Ron Kurtz, who was my mentor. We would just go down to Boulder on the outdoor mall, and we would just sit there and watch people because nobody moves the same. And everything has significance in how we move, you know, how we walk. I mean, it could be an injury for sure. It could be modeling after our parents. And it also could be how we embodied our experience. So to get curious and develop that sense of value that the body has value and meaning in psychotherapy and then start looking at how the body participates in the client's issues, start getting interested in that. Thank you. Well, I think we have just about five minutes left, and I wanted to ask if there's any particular practice that you might want to share for us to close on. Well, let me think a second. One of the things that keeps coming up as we talk that I'd like to share for a few minutes and then maybe just do a little experiential is the importance of our kind of philosophical spiritual foundation for our work, and we all have it, we all we all have beliefs, things we adhere to, often it's implicit, you know, like, do we really believe the client has the answers inside or do we believe that we're the authority? You know, like examining, what do you really believe? Do you really believe the body has intelligence or do you believe that it's more a rational mind? Like looking at those foundations because that's gonna create the atmosphere for the therapy. You know, that's going to be the waters you swim in. And in Sensorimotor Psychotherapy, we have a set of principles that many I learned from Ron Kurtz, who's the brains behind Hakomi, the Hakomi Method. And then we've developed these principles since in Sensorimotor psychotherapy. Principles like organicity, which means every living system does have the intelligence inside that they need for their own healing, period. I mean, in the 70s, when I was working in a psychiatric hospital, that was like revolutionary. I was supposed to have all the answers. But do you really believe that, you know? And if you do, then it's going to guide your actions. You're going to be nonviolent. You're not going to push because you're going trust that wisdom in your client. You're gonna help them take that next step to enact that wisdom, you know? You're not going to try to push them in a direction they don't want to go. So principles like that, like unity is another one of our principles, you know, mind, body, spirit wholism, that we're always working with the whole person. So, I would encourage everyone to really examine what you believe is true in terms of the human condition and human relationship, because that's going to influence how you define the therapeutic relationship. So that's really, I think those principles, and they're more like relational alchemy, presence and mindfulness. These are really the most important part of Sensorimotor Psychotherapy, because everything, all the theories and all the techniques come out of that mindset. So we really strive to embody those principles. So, yeah, if people want to stand up just for a moment, I wonder if I can do this with these headphones plugged in. Just stand up for a moment and come into just sensing your body and sensing how this material is landing for you. Just take your time. And then see if you can just, and let your body guide you here. See if you could find a movement that feels somehow integrative, that somehow feels like this movement maybe can support me just to integrate what's happened in this past hour. And the key here is to let it come from your body. Don't do your morning stretches or anything. Just let it! Let your body guide you. And if you feel yourself going into some pattern response that you do all the time, just pause and come back to your body with the intention of integration. And notice what it's like to just trust your body. Everybody's got their, well, we can't see each other. You can see me, but you don't have to worry about anybody seeing your movement. It can look weird, it can look really strange. And just let your body guide you here. With that intention of integration. And then take a moment, maybe a moment in stillness and just notice how your body feels now. That's something I often do at the end of a session with a client, and I'll close my eyes, they'll close their eyes, and we'll just move with integration. And I imagine you can feel the difference from how you felt when you first stood up. I sure can. I feel the energy flowing much more fully in my body. Yeah. OK. Well, thank you, Pat. This has been wonderful. I'm so, so glad that this will be a part of the program for folks to participate in. Oh, thank you too, Kaleigh. I really enjoyed it. It was delightful.