are you fed up with all the headlines about sports relationship with gambling what can the industry do to protect itself against the public backlash sports sponsorship has caused are the operators putting enough thinking into specific deals all this and more on the GI huddle hello there folks and welcome to the third installment of the GI huddle with myself David Cooke and the rest of the gambling insider editorial team first a man who would love nothing more than to wear a gambling inside a logo and blazing on his sleeve it's Tim Poole good afternoon everyone second a man who sleeps in gambling inside the merchandise pajamas it's math UN debate good PJ's are hard to come by hello and third a man with the perfect face for any advertising campaign its Nathan Joyce very nice so it sponsorship of course is something that gets talked about a hell of a lot in the gaming industry especially in the UK at the moment and there's the headline figure that gets put on on all particular football sponsorships last season it was nine Premier League shirt sponsors you know from gambling companies 17 of the 20 for championship clubs being sponsored by gambling companies but we sit across you know although all the mainstream sports really particularly in the UK so a question for the floor to start off with should be you know should the industry be concerned about how it reacts to the press attention that all the sponsorships have caused surely the industry knew it was going to expect this backlash hey you only have to look at tobacco and alcohol over the years to realize that so they knew that this would come by weekly hasn't stopped them them the amount of money in it it won't contain slowed them in the future yeah no I agree I think a hundred percent the industry in any industry for that matter has to be concerned about whatever kind of press attention that it is generating from itself you know in the day and age of clickbait news and everything like that websites know what's going to generate a lot of attention quickly and they have that data very fast so they have to so the industry has to be aware that like if you put out something if something controversial happens people are going to want to read about it and gonna want to know more about it and so they have to be just yeah be aware of the attention it's going to generate yeah I agree that it shouldn't be a surprise but I I wouldn't be concerned personally because gambling is a product that's intrinsically linked to sport you can bet on sports so I see there's no issue in terms of sports betting companies sponsoring football teams or you know sporting tournaments so yeah I wouldn't be like I said like I said it it's expected but I wouldn't be concerned because I think gambling companies are doing nothing wrong example of what we're seeing this week you know just in the last two days and we've seen three Premier League team confirmed gamming shirt sponsors for the next season we've got wolves with man Ben X we've got Burnley with love bet them today with Aston Villa with WACA who consequently sponsored wolves last season but what I would probably expect to see is just the announcement the logo on the shirt will see it every Premier League game and chances are that will be that in terms of what we you know the mainstream see see about it so why are we not then seeing the operators use the sponsorships for good causes or have we seen any clear efforts from operators to use these sponsorships for good causes and to create a more positive image about the industry yeah I think it's a valid point and those are great names by the way those love Batman backs it's a it's a valid point because I think there are examples of some real good being done so we had a 32 red they were doing something with mental health will this one ship with Derby and the two previously when they sponsored Swansea that there was they donated season tickets to people from a homeless shelter something along those lines a figure movie it's not exactly that but it was definitely you know in that in that ballpark but yeah they should be promoting this more I really don't see why operators don't you know just put like their their brand is all over a kit so you know they should be shouting about these achievements and if the guard you know the Daily Mail said Oh evil gambling company donates to good cause it's not gonna have the same ring to is it because there's no way of misreporting that story there's definitely an issue though of like sort of shouting about your own good deeds right if you if you do something positive yeah that's that's good but if you're the one to really circulate it around the world then it's like okay what they're really doing here is just trying to get some attention yeah if they're donating to season tickets I might be your well in good 400 500 pound max baby did an article on the comment would be yeah but you're getting millions and millions of pounds of revenue from exploiting people yes or two season tickets inviting to the game we're gonna see how bad a Heisman that's not gonna really do too much good as it little I think that the media always put a negative spin on it so if you hear about it great but if you like Matt said if you go all here we're doing this this is great it's always gonna have a bad backlash to it I'd really like to know actually from just my perspective and see how about the natural effect it can happen assumes and we're only you know four people in this room so you know we don't obviously represent the entire cohort people will be watching a Premier League football next season for it for example but there's seeing a brand name on a shirt have any effect on exam in terms of wanting to bet with that particular operator does it make you want to switch from any account that you currently use on any gambling site to gun use use those operators in particular because I just thinking of you know times when I might you know watch Formula One as a kid see Marlboro advertised on the back of Ferraris thing about how it didn't make me want to smoke cigarettes but I don't know if there's any gonna psychological effect in seeing so many I don't know yeah wouldn't say what makes me want to switch or do anything sort of active because of this information but it does you know you just you just made aware of it right you like oh this is maybe a brand I didn't know about or this is a new company that's trying to make a name for itself it just generates that kind of attention yeah a lot of the sponsors which we've seen in the Premier League I like a me know the Far East and that sort of sort of population and how their market yeah that's the other market in the Far East to not only look out the big six and expand into other teams as well and they can exploit that so Bournemouth can only reach so many people for example within the UK but with the Premier League getting bigger and bigger in Asia people might want to then maybe switch teams or support other sides and I think that someone like Lester C has brought out with them when in the Premier League so I think that's what it's more appealed out I don't look at do we 8a and think oh if I can get better odds there than on William Hill or bet365 you're gonna go with reliable operators especially within the UK he's a the UK operator worried about example now but on reflection bet bright which came in you might have a little look of them because you might see something different autumn more offers but if they're not based within the UK I don't think I'd want to switch yeah I might be unique in this I certainly wouldn't switch based on a sponsorship but when I was looking to create a new account this season I looked at BetVictor and I support Liverpool and their partnership so it did kind of sway me like I'm not sure if I'm alone in that but you know there is an example of worked at least a little bit so yeah because it was your club you like yes yeah exactly that affinity a little bit more exactly yeah but as Nathan says mainly a lot of this brand awareness is is aimed at the Asian market yeah I would agree that with with UK operators I thought that Brian being a forest fan I would never but never backed anything with them before being a small operator normally likes prefer to go to a big one so yeah that makes a lot of sense to us to at least check them out if they're uk-based they see where the industry has got an issue was see where operators have an issue is when PR departments sit down and marketing department sit down they talk about how they're going to publicize a sponsorship of a football team or any sporting event for that matter you can try and engage the players by offering things like free bets or special offers for example but then there's always going to be a negative reaction to that at the same time and in terms of people saying oh you're just using this as a chance to entice more people to gamble so in a kind of maze think what can you actually do that helps the consumer or does something for the consumer that they'll enjoy or be entertained bible's so not at the same time create more of a backlash in the media I think the best example I've seen is like free code trouble another - yeah long games and stuff because that benefits everybody if some turns around and says why we're paying for your code travel which is gonna be 30 pounds and you're going with three or four people I think that's one of the positive things is actually getting the people to the games and then I'm not the master experiences you're not AI thinking oh this is gonna set me back a little bit or this is all here because of gambling you're there in a box where you've got like season tickets just Tim touched upon earlier you're just gonna you're just there to appreciate the game because you apply for that competition or you're going to the game with free travel because you want what the football game you know looking at it from a betting angle or trying to think that you've been learning to swim to do with having a bet you know so they force it yeah they've facilitate the sport the game the enjoyment rather then better observe or a bonus signup or something like that yes so I looked today in football index has I'm gonna keep going about to follow in my mind that not even forest fan yeah cast listeners there are other teams available they're not football index sponsored forest today and non forest did like a post on social media but then the first link to it from football index was all forest fans put this code in and then you'll get a 10 pound free bet and I just think that's the wrong way to go about it I think you need to approach it from a personal point of view is in the freakos trouble or tickets or something like that yeah it's on top of anything else it might just be a bit generic yeah I might to do something yeah that's safer even a lot of fans aren't particularly happy with varying operators if you there's been a few stories sort of mentioned over the last couple of days you click on all of them and it's just negative feedback so the last thing you want to do to draw into all this have a free bitterness because your forest fan or your a bit of fun with us so yeah I think they just need to approach it from a completely different angle and just strip that back completely and one of the big stories regarding shirt sponsorship which got national attention recently was regarding GBC I don't know if part of this is because there seems to be a bit of an obsession with GBC CEO Kenny Alexander the Lawson people when it's all about his salary in particular but with them saying that they're talking about ending shirt sponsorship completely then and they've done plenty you know through bet DAC in particular not so much with lab rocks or with coral as I know in football but what will this plan was what effects are will this plan have on the market and the perception of the market so I think GBC are in a pretty unique position in that it's a it's a major player and it's a giant and if they stopped all football sponsorship with their brands arguably it wouldn't lose them any revenue because everyone knows these brands anyway and it will probably just save them some sponsorship costs I think that they're perfectly entitled to go this fruit and as you say it's because there's a lot of attention on Kenny Alexander and I can certainly understand its point of view his a not so much agenda but they want to reduce the pressure on themselves in this sort of in the public eye but for me the when there was the the voluntary advertising whistle to whistle ban I think that was that was a good sign for the industry but I think now trying to stop all advertise all sponsorship is a step too far for me and you know I have written about this previously if you don't mind me shamelessly plugging my article and on the matter if you want to hear more not at all but yeah I think it doesn't really affect GBC so for example a smaller operators of bet bright is a perfect I didn't do too well in the end but when when they signed with not even forest people would get that exposure whereas Ladbrokes coral be win all these brands they don't really need that exposure because they're already very well-known brands yeah they are very well-known of things would have been the immediate future you're definitely like it wouldn't sort of affect them too much but it will be interesting further down the line to see if there has like a knock on sort of effect because I mean if they're not getting the amount there as much as they were before will that eventually catch up with them yeah is it easier for LA Brooks to say cos love to associate don't I do they even sponsor any football teams big football teams just the investment SPFL failure yeah so you look into the Premier League it's easy for them to turn around and go right I don't think there should be shirt sponsorship deals anymore exactly that's not yet allowed Brooks at all yeah if they can wipe out a competition completely especially from like the Premier League in the championship which is so heavily viewed surely that's us two plus the Leopards and they look like the good moral people out of it anyway exactly you can cut it's hard disagree with that and I think that's something we've got to be wary off because like Matt said earlier if if people aren't going to take press releases seriously you know if you're promoting your own good deeds this kind of thing some people will be able to see well actually you know you're going to benefit from this so does it mean as much the next interesting point is about how the gambling sponsors in in football have creates so much attention but not for doing it with the top club even though the top guys all have official betting partners we've not seen them on the shares and just you know around some of the numbers the other day and saw that the average big six front of shirt sponsorship last season I guess your friend listeners who are to where you know just run through those big six on our Manchester United Manchester City arsenal liverpool chelsea Tottenham Hotspur the average shirt sponsorship for them was worth about thirty-eight million pounds per year if you're looking at last season's deals whereas the other 14 teams the average is 5.3 million pounds per year so we're looking at a difference of about 30 million pounds in a year but which you know to a tier 1 operator you wouldn't you know regard as a huge amount of money yeah that's not very change to demands when certainly when we see about the amount the industry spends on marketing so why do we think the gambling operators are not paying the rate that you need for a top club like what we saw in beer when was sponsoring the likes of Real Madrid and AC Milan about 10 years ago I think it might be due to the bad publicity if they're gonna be paying excess of however what you stated there how much difference or 30 million about 30 million 30 million but just perceive negative feedback is it worth it for them probably not yeah I think that's a big issue and also it's just it's just the attainability really because look at Liverpool Standard Chartered that's a was that an investment bank is it its bank financial kind of comedy yeah what so many I mean these are massive companies so it would be it would be tricky to compete with them and I've spoken to two CEO Paul Fox who said that as a gambling company you just won't get the top six shirt so I think for the reason that there's a lot of competition because we have to understand gambling is a massive industry but there are there are bigger industries out there and as Nathan says I think the exposure then well what would be interesting I'm going to throw out there if let's say Liverpool was sponsored by a major gambling operator with the funds and marketing available availability for Liverpool a club all that really good at marketing imagine them being sponsored by a massive gambling company but being able to promote it in the right ways having better PR having more a more creative approach could that actually sway public opinion a little bit towards it probably not but you know it's an interesting scenario I think yeah interesting if you we previously spoke about with Paddy Power when they put a bit of effort and a bit of thought into it didn't make it particularly gambling related we all really enjoyed it in that words but then we've completely slated the ones where it looks like someone's gone right got ten minutes before it's me rooming in the darkness why this down and see what happens so yeah I completely agree with that yeah it would be very interesting to see how that how that goes I think I agree with both of your points and I think it would be it sort of makes sense in a way that operators don't necessarily want to push for the higher bracket of primarily teams or stuff because I mean when you've got where you don't have to pay 30 I mean you can just pay five point three and still have your name on a shirt of it like you're gonna it's gonna play Liverpool one week and all the Liverpool fans will see see that shirt and see that sponsor and then man United it a few weeks later and you know you're gonna be playing these top six teams twice a year so maybe the kind of way that you know the difference there and say oh we don't really need to pay third in melee and we can just get away with five here and still get similar levels of publicity yeah exactly and the fact that the backlash which gambling companies gay so know they're always trying to be in your face but the fact that they're not sponsoring and it seems particularly really in the Premier League suggests otherwise to me and just to go back to another another shameless plug for myself something when they about when you spoke to the two CEO Paul Fox because they literally used to sponsor Swansea City in the Premier League and it's interesting how we see this week w88 who used to sponsor walls now sponsoring Aston Villa hopping from one Premier League club to another and it just makes me think and and this is something that you know I'm sure you would have discussed them as well how much due diligence goes into which particular Club or which particular partner and operator once in the Premier League do they think about this much at all or it appear their case of we know the number of eyeballs on this league the actual team we go with doesn't matter yeah I think it's a not to disrespect operators in any way I think it is it is the latter and not as I say not because of a lazy approach but just because the solution is that simple like matt said the to give a specific example of swansea played Man United lunchtime kickoff once so it was the only game the whole world was watching and so basically yeah all the eyeballs are on there and it's yes like I sure well shortcut does sound disrespectful but it but it is it's it's it's that rather than sponsoring a top six company you can pay less and still get massive exposure I don't think the football teams really care what the sponsor looks like either I mean the day there's so much pressure to reach the Premier League or to reach the championship if one baton opera is offering five six million and at one sort of an eight million I mean it doesn't really matter then they're getting two million that go towards potentially signing to play which will get into the Premier League and then hopefully it snowballs from there I mean you know you only have to look good nori seaweed like Leo Vegas I mean I don't think they really wanted like poor prints all over their home kit but if they get any extra money out of it which is obviously held them out over the years now they're back in the Premier League I mean it shows that money talks and then when it comes to you know what the big UK names do it's just quite interesting that you know the lab ropes the corals the William Hill's the Paddy Power's the bet fares we're not seeing them go down this same route as many of these many Asia facing operators are doing maybe these smaller to mid tier operators are doing but where we often do see the likes of the bigger UK names in Spore in sports like darts like snooker like boxing they're not necessarily going for the biggest point but we'll but going for maybe a more traditional gambling audience in that sense with those other sports the spite anomaly is bet365 with Stoke City but we know that society one-off cater members of who I'm Stoke City yep and but why do we think that the big traditional UK names are going about it this way I really don't hope it's really interesting to see especially with darts I mean I mean Ally Pally the William Hill Dassin and in December it is massive but no one's ever called out oh I hang on a minute why it's all about William Hill and it's the same with snooker with betfred in that so I I honestly don't know I think maybe footballs in the microscope too much that people and the money which like darts and Snuka and those bringing in he's my new compared to football so maybe they don't see an actual issue or an actual problem there X is inching at amazing when was the last time you read an article saying something on the lines of sneakers dangerous relation with gas or boxing dangerous relationship with gambling or darts dangerous relationships yeah exactly we unconstant Lisi football's dangerous relationship with gamble yeah and how many people were watching the Joshua fight last weekend yeah I mean and the Rings might covered in William Hill yeah that's never ever brought to our attention yeah I do think Premier League clubs are very eager to push like they're the family factor from for their kind of what did where their entertainment essentially what they provide you know if you see like the like I'm sure like on tickets just on pictures of things it's like a dad bringing his son down to the grounds for a game or you know something about that where they're really it's almost like part of the business model to say like can get your kids involved bring them on down this Saturday and watch your favorite team play football so I think that they sort of feel that there might be a bit more like they're there to take the responsibility there don't they and they can't sort of just Ram it down people's throats as much as maybe then or gambling aware audience would in snooker pool or any of these other sports you've mentioned yeah I think it links back also to the same issue of Premier League sponsors attracting sort of Asian market and Asian fans the likelihood is now obviously there's going to be new customers every time or every year and especially new customers who just turn 18 so technically there's a new market right there but generally speaking football fans will know the big UK brand but maybe there's a there's a sort of potential for new players in these sort of smaller more niche sports that might not be as accustomed to betting because they don't have it and on every you know team's kit or every players kit in that sport if that makes sense so that the UK market kind of there might be a little bit more potential for growth in the darts or a snooker rather than football where everyone who bets on football the likelihood is they know about 365 William Hill and people are up I think it's when you go to the football with it be friends or whoever you normally thinking about who's gonna win today and you're talking about it you are naturally talking about the game in a betting angle whether you're gonna have a punt on it or not but when you say when you go through the darts a lot of the time it's fancy dress with your mates and it's like five six players and a lot people just want to go for the atmosphere they don't actually even know who's playing and a lot of the time people aren't even watching the dance they're just that pretty much get drunk and have a good time with you mates so you're approaching it completely different so you're not in the mindset of or what BAM I gonna have here especially in like the preliminary rounds of like the Darcy in December mmm yeah it's only not that same traditional kind of father-son feeling in that first dance master into it their dad is not the same as going to the first yeah and potentially is a good revenue maker for an operator because if you don't even know he's playing but you're there and you had a couple of points and well you know maybe not in the most responsible fashion thought yeah I'll have a punt you know could be a revenue therefore operator go back to you know Matt's point about about the family feel because I know that you mentioned it in an article recently about Huddersfield fan yeah who said about even when they don't put the sponsor on the children's shirts the children's size churns it might be kind of pointless if they keep seeing the logos and everything else around the ground so yeah so that in that article what I wrote about was um this guy went to the game with his son and he got the Huddersfield Town kid for his kid and when they got into the stadium he was just looking down at his shirt and up around and down at his shirt and up around the place continually again and again and they're like you know the group that they went with his like what are you doing Wilson what are you doing and he said well this is just the silliest thing ever because the most difficult place for me to see this sponsorship is here on my shirt I have to like make it effort to look down at it here whereas all I need to do is open my eyes and look around this place and I see and I see these gambling sponsorships around me it's interesting because I just feel people are always talking about this you know think of the children argument but I I just don't know where where we all stand on it in terms of if you try and avoid these people no trying to avoid teaching people that these things exist in the first place does that make an awful lot of difference when somebody grows up and turns 18 okay yeah it's a difficult obvious obviously you can't gamble until you're 18 we all know that so it's a difficult one I think they they're doing the right thing by not putting it on but then they should probably be the option for adults as well whether they want to display it or not so if a parent is worried about their child growing up and seeing it yes you're gonna see all around the ground but you've got a look at a lot of funds you don't actually get to go to the games all that often and just see on TV so you you pretty much was watching the game in my eyes if the daddy's not to have the sponsor as well then maybe that's there's a lesson in there or anything like that but if if the ad or has the choice to follow sue as well then that might have a more sensible message or I come across bear to the child who's obviously wondering as to why his show he's different but at the end of the day the kid is gonna be he wants to wear that shirt not because well you know it would be sweet if it was because his dad was wearing it but the end of the day his his idol that centre-forward at his favorite football team he wears a shirt and he's got the bedding logo straight across there you know yeah so it's it's always gonna be a difficult one to say like oh yeah we've taken off the kids so that's gonna that's gonna be better I think obviously you know it's illegal to gamble before your employer a team but that doesn't mean that it's not happening right yeah the thing is if you're if you cash in mind bats you first have a football shirt or even thinking about how you pick this shirt or you like this shirt because of how it looked yeah yeah you know looking at the month mentioned bet low logo and thinking if I can have a bet they're all yeah I think I might use auto glass when I've got a car yeah I think on the point of education I think this is something again Matt went to a seminar this year and yeah was it was it like amp yeah yeah yeah they said that they're very much in favor of having betting education for kids and I think yeah you shouldn't be pretending it doesn't exist because they you know this this might seem a strange example at first but you'll see where I'm going with this if there was no sex education there would be more teenage pregnancies because people said people need to know about these things and if you teach a kid about gambling doesn't mean they're gonna be a problem though it means that when they turn 18 they'll know that you know can't until 18 and then I'll you know hopefully if they talk you know the right way the challenges of them gambling responsibly all behind yeah it's the same with cigarettes same with alcohol you know awareness increases like the more knowledge you have the better your decision will be when it's time to make it I mean we saw the introduction last season from the AFL on the sleeve badges to add responsible gambling to change them entirely they were like luminous yellow so obviously you drawn to it straight away but that's an interesting approach I don't know why if they've don't know just to tick a few boxes and jump through a few hoops to allow the sponsorships to continue as if to say we'll be doing our bit here but they're still allowing all the gambling advertisement in the first place so I'm not quite sure what I see that I don't think they were just taking a few boxes to be honest but if they're not I'm wrong there's still responsible gambling they're on TV on all the players shirts from Lee - all the way up to the championship for all to see but I think the day is only a sleep sponsor so it's not like right off the chest is it obvious to see so and then just to move things across the pond because this is where the narrative always seems to be so different over in the US and as since we saw the passport peel just over a year ago we've seen you know the NHL partner with MGM the NFL partnering with Caesar's New York Jets with MGM and AAA how differently do we think betting sponsorship is being perceived by US media and US players as well it's all new at the moment isn't it nice that the way you've allocated when it when the betting first came my cast your minds back when babe first you start becoming awful Borchers and sponsorship deals with premier league teams and championship teams we weren't straightaway like approaching it with caution and being liable this could have huge effects in five ten years time it was all excited and new he's an end that's especially what's happened in the u.s. at the moment so maybe down the line they'll be having the same discussion is what we're having now but at the moment money's being fed into the all these different sports and all these different leagues through through gambling and I think they're just in a period at home where it's just all exciting and new yeah I think Jackie I think the new thing is exec was as soon as our last podcast really I'm you know that the u.s. is still very focused on bass then for a lot of politicians at least the idea of mobile seems to be this this groundbreaking new thing but there I think the US market will get to the same stage as UK market is in terms of perceptions and then then it would be better to you know compare it one thing that is interesting is we discussed this the other day in terms of shirt sponsorship it's an it's not really a thing in the US yet so we in turn to see if that does become a thing no no is anything to be more about plastering over the broadcast rather than the actual share so where do we see this issue heading we know what happened next could the backlash create more discussions about complete advertising bans you know like we're about to see in Italy or do we see the operators maybe addressing the issue and making sure that the storm calms a little bit there's always gonna be people who are going to push for a complete ban on advertising and well I think more rules might come in tighter regulations yes and yes I don't think the complete complete ban will happen and if it did that would be pretty scary so would those Crusaders push the ban gambling altogether if they were to achieve a full ban on advertising I mean that's like that would be sort of the the potential step further down the line but but no I don't think we're gonna have a complete ban it's bringing too much money to football as well especially first off slightly lower league teams who need this sort of money to help them out I'm not falling into financial affair problems yeah so I think it's too much money in it and I think it's gone too far down the line to completely stripping back it will stay prominent and teams will keep renewing deals as we've been seeing over the past week yeah I think it's it's not good it's not gonna go away and I don't think it should whether I agree with what GBC is doing with it with its ban that kind of thing will help because if one operator does a little bit less for example they're the bet DAC sunland sponsorship where they've we should mention that the way they've they've given they've donated their sponsor to a charity yeah that is a really good thing as I you know I can't say her and say oh it's terrible that that's happened it's a really nice initiative and yeah here and there they were they'll certainly be a political battle in terms of there'll be a debate had and held over the next few years and it might be up to people like I survey of all articulate gentlemen to say that no sponsorship is okay and you know let's keep it that way should hear the outtakes before you call us that's well we're two months away from the start of next season let's see how this issue develops thank you for your time gentlemen and of course to you listeners please keep checking into gambling insider.com and our GI variety newsletter for more info on this and all gambling topics plus our may/june print issue 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