[Music] welcome to audit the audit where we sort out the who and what and the right and wrong of police interactions this episode covers the right to film public libraries and the supremacy clause and is brought To Us by time to change jersey styles channel be sure to check out the description below and give them the credit that they deserve on May 6th 2024 independent citizen video journalist and First Amendment Advocate Jen kums began to film in a parking lot outside the county clerk's office in Montgomery County Tennessee as she was filming the office's drive-through vehicle registration Windows she was approached by a security guard who informed her that she could not film on the property without permission when M would not answer his questions about what she was doing the security guard called to request that a deputy be dispatched to remove Miss kums after the security guard placed the call Miss kums continued to film and walked in front of the Clarksville Montgomery County Public Library which was in the same complex as the county clerk's office Deputy Evans of the Montgomery County Sheriff's Office responded to the call and the interaction that followed was captured on his body camera Hey sir how you doing good how are you good I'm scared for my safety of this guy okay I'm here to do official business okay and I'm going to exercise My First Amendment right that's what I'm doing hey let's get the road okay that's what I'm doing okay this security I'm not breaking any laws all right um so I mean you're just going around filming yeah okay um I'm a citizen R journalist this is what I do with government officials MH and I'm here on official business I want to check into the tax maps stuff like that and I did film by the DMV because that's something new I've never seen that before not breaking any law sir and I'm not giving you my ID either okay cuz Tennessee is I'm not it's not a s State okay unless you unless you being unless I'm being arrested for something then I have to give you the my ID right right now you're not being arrested okay you're not detained um you're free to go okay going to be escorted off the property though it's against the rules here to film without express permission and for me to ask her what her purpose is here and her tell me it's none of my business well that's incorrect so she's not allowed to film here unless you have exp explicit permission from the facilities engineering manager those are the rules here this is County government property this is not public property ma'am government is public property no ma' it is not I'm sorry but you cannot film here without permission I don't need anybody's permissions exercise my lady off my property yeah give me just give me just a second can I talk to your supervisor um probably not [Music] um I want to talk to your supervisor because I'm here to do official business with public records okay give me just a sec so security guard wants this lady kicked out of here because he said she can't film here without permission yeah she's asking for a supervisor I'm like look we you don't need one I'll just talk to the security guard and be like look man per my supervisor she's not hurting anything and not bothering anybody she can film here she's outside the library yeah she's just being an auditor yeah and I don't know about her trying to get into she can film inside the library right I just wanted to make sure I just want to make sure I'm right like yeah okay yeah cuz I don't she's not doing anything wrong hey so I just got off the phone with my lieutenant yeah and I mean he said she's good to film and walk around no no she's not she's not you don't know the rules here okay you need to you need to check with somebody before you make that that's my lieutenant dude I don't care I the rules here I enforce I want her off the property she's not allowed to film that's not up for debate period I mean do I have to call you know mayor golden or something I mean if you want I mean like I said I just got off the phone with my lieutenant I don't care what your Lieutenant said he doesn't know the rules here either okay she's not allowed to film without written consent from Mark who is the facility's manager right if I ask her what she's doing I expect an answer not it's none of your business I'll do whatever I want I want her off the property it's that simple she's not allowed to do what she's doing your Lieutenant is not his decision to make these are the rules period And I enforce them if there's a problem with that I'll I'll you know if you're not going to back me up then I'll it's not that you know I'm not wanting to you know like she's she's not allowed to do what she's doing you don't get it this dude this is government property not public right she can't do it here without written permission and consent when I ask her what she's doing and she refuses to tell me she's leaving property that's all there is to it I mean from my understanding she's not breaking any laws according this is County government do you know what the rules are here at the County government um facility here do you know what they are anywhere open I mean it's open to the public please do you know what they are do you know what the rules here are no not I do that's my job I'm telling you she's not allowed to do what she's doing and I want her off property period it's really simple she's not allowed to do what she's doing and after giving me the hard time I want her off the property I got other things to tend to but I mean I'm not allowed to kick her you most certainly are allowed to escort her off property yes sir I've had it done many times don't please don't tell me you can't do that correct but she's not doing anything wrong oh my goodness we're going to go over this again yes she is she is violating the rules here at County government property you're not she's not allowed to do what she's doing Deputy Evans informs the security guard that he will not remove Miss kums from the property because she is not violating the law and the security guard insists that she is not allowed to film in the parking lot now we've discussed the right to film in public many times here on ATA and I've included links in the description to several episodes where we discuss this issue in further detail in general it is important to understand that although both the Supreme Court and the sixth Circuit Court of Appeals which has jurisdiction over Tennessee have not directly addressed the First Amendment right to record every federal circuit that has considered the issue has determined that the first amendment protects the right to film the police with some jurisdictions recognizing a more expansive right to film government officials or matters of public interest we will discuss the constitutionality of filming inside the public library later in this episode but as Miss kums was only filming government buildings from a public parking lot it is likely that a court would find that her activities were protected by the First Amendment good talk to the supervisor [Music] I4 all good yeah she's just filming and the security guard got a Cas of that in escort at this point I'm like she's not breaking any laws he's like well like but she's breaking the rules I'm like yeah I'm like if you want to kick her out you can but I'm I'm not I I understand what his issue is I mean like everywhere that's open to the public she can go but I don't know I don't he's he's not getting it I'm like dude she's not breaking like if you want to call the mayor you can call the mayor okay but I mean like she just agreed with I don't care what she agreed with like I said you guys don't know the rules here this is my she's filming me without my permission which is another violation sir she needs to go period so see like I mean you're allowed to record I mean like no not here you have to have written consent and the person being filmed has to give consent I do not she is to leave property it's that simple that simple those are the rules here and this is my job okay if you're going to undercut me I'm not yes you are if you're going to undercut me let I need your name and badge number so I can turn it in but I call you guys I expect to be backed up okay not to be told what it's like off property off property it's a different set of rules what I'm saying is she's not breaking the law she is you don't get it you just don't get it dude you work for the county you still don't get it she's not allowed to do what she's doing on County government property either a scor or offer please give me your name and badge number so I can take it higher I'm sick to death of not being backed up here okay I'm trying to do the job they tell me to do and you guys are cutting me off at the knees she's not allowed to do what she's doing she's not allowed to film me without my express permission and I don't give it she needs to go period Well I mean she is Tennessee had it's a one way going to argue with me I don't get it may I have your name and badge number yeah I'm Deputy Evans K 954 I'll have my with me there you go I like to have a S4 to do public records request no ma'am you are not I'm asking him you're not asking me this is my post this is my post you're not going in that building es she's not going in these buildings dude she's not doing it why you go against government policy like that man it's not the law County it's County government ma they have their own rules here that have to be followed I like to have an escort please she's not going in that building I'm telling you right now thank you I like to have an esort H you go just a sec I mean you can make phone calls yeah I can believe me I'm in the right here she's not allowed to do what she's doing on this property period all right yeah you might want to swing out security guard's got a case of that he's like I'm not allowing her in any of these buildings and I'm like she's not breaking the law she's just like First Amendment auditing and I'm not I'm not I'm not fishing it's not the auditor that's the problem yeah I got my supervisor coming um dude it's the rules aren't going to change because your supervisors on the way it's that simple look I understand you know feeling some type of way with somebody feel filming and stuff like that it's against the rules on this property it's not how I feel about it it's period it's cut and dry but I mean it she it's not it's not illegal dude you're not you just you don't get it you don't this is County government property and I work for the county yes then why are you not backing me up here because enforcing the rules that I have to enforce here I mean if you listen if you cut me off at the knees then you effectively cut my job off I have no Authority here to do my job if you don't back me up and I I will call Wes and talk to him about this I've already had to do it once already unbelievable man supposed to be working together here we're both right I mean but she's not causing a disturbance she's not hurting anybody not listening I mean it doesn't none of that is that's irrelevant it's irrelevant she can't do what she's doing she's filming me without my permission on this property is not acceptable but I mean she's allowed to she that's not against the law either dude yes it is you don't have no idea what goes on here you need to learn what goes on here before you come make a decision cuz you don't know you do not know am I getting an esort to do a public record request that building I'm not talking to you sir I'm security here and I'm telling you you're not going in that building filming she's not doing it not talking it to you sir she's not doing it period but she's allowed to no she's not I mean like oh my God you so hardheaded she is not allowed to do it you can't film yeah you can no oh my god dude you cannot on government property without the security guard tells mums that he will not allow her to enter the library and Deputy Evans informs him that she is allowed to enter and film while public libraries are held open for public use courts have concluded that they are not so-called traditional public forums for First Amendment purposes which means that the government has a greater amount of authority to regulate First Amendment activities on the property than it would in traditional public forums such as parks and streets for instance in the 2003 case of Nest versus Board of Trustees of the Columbus Metropolitan Library the sixth Circuit Court of Appeals held that quote for the purposes of First Amendment analysis the library is a limited public forum as such the library is obligated only to permit the public to exercise rights that are consistent with the nature of the library and consistent with the government's intent in designating the library as a public forum traditionally libraries provide a place for Reading Writing and quiet contemplation now while the issue of filming in libraries has not been decisively litigated it is certainly possible that a court would determine that blanket policies prohibiting filming inside libraries do not violate the First Amendment given the conventional purpose and atmosphere of a public library however rather than banning all filming inside libraries the office for intellectual freedom of the American Library Association suggests that libraries now quoting consider policies that allow for photography and filming of the library building and collections that does not invade the privacy of Library users and that Library employees allow First Amendment Auditors who are filming in accordance with policy and are not violating Library policies that protect Library users's privacy or that prohibit behaviors that constitute harassment of users and staff to film without intervention the Clarksville Montgomery County Public Library Patron conduct policy does not ban citizens from filming inside the Library although the policy does state that quote patrons are not allowed to engage in behavior that is disruptive to library operation and that now quoting again patrons are not allowed to harass threaten or physically harm a patron or employee the policy also prohibits quote creating loud noises or disturbances which interfere with staff and or other patrons' use and enjoyment of the library accordingly because this policy would not forbid Ms kum's from engaging in non-disruptive and non-h harassing filming a court would likely conclude that the security guard could not prevent her from entering the library I want an escort you are not going anywhere Inside by buildings so period I don't think I can give you an escort um well I don't want this guy assaulting me that's I'm trying to avoid you know what as long as you're on this campus I'm going to be in your Shadow whether you like it or not just don't assault me no one's touching you no one's touching you so can I go inside to do a public mean you can't if I start walking into that door guys try to I will physically stop her she is not allowed to do that you need to get on this now do you understand why I'm asking for esort because he stated he's will to put not allowed to go in there the county clerk is who called me to come take care of this right so you're going to say that you know that she has no Authority either well I mean if if she elected official and you're telling me she has no authority to let me do my job if the county clerk didn't want you in there they have the right to ask you to leave I'm doing a I'm doing a records request and that's like under a stot um I don't know a whole lot about that and I don't know where you would do it um like a public she is like the codium records it's she very well could be like I said I don't know a lot about that so she's the person to do it with so maybe I'm not getting my point across clearly um um I don't you have no point my friend I'm sorry I don't mean to talk like that but I have the point but if if she asked you to leave you do have to leave she's not going in Period I'm you're not going in that building against you um lawsuits involved possible lawsuits I'm here to do a a simple public record but then you have to go through the process ma'am you have to get permission from our facilities manager I don't need I don't need permission to you have to give permission from our facility manager yes that see so let my supervisor get here yeah he'll he'll explain it cuz maybe I'm missing something maybe I'm not getting my friend you're missing the point you're missing the point she needs to be property period now if you want to go and get permission to do what you're doing I have no problem with that ma'am you just have to go through you have to go through the proper Channel cuz like I mean it'd be the same if she walked into the sheriff's office with a camera you're allowed to do that you're allowed to film inside the Sheriff's Office we're not the Sheriff's Office it's County we're not the Sheriff's Office it's public property it is not man' it's private no it's not it's this public property uh yes no it's not it's government County oh my God is that private why do you think out we can't let cars park here overnight because it's not public area right it's not public it's not priv hey real quick did the did the county clerk ask you to leave when you went in there okay I was outside the whole time but not I okay I I just want to make sure I'm relaying everything correctly so she's here filming um wanting to do like you know filming stuff um my I want to introduce myself I'm a friend nice to meet you I'm a friendly person I'm just here to do a public records request under the Tennessee statue and want inquire about their policies and stuff that's it and I did film on the side of the DMV because that's something new that I never saw so I it's like but I never went inside okay I stayed outside um I'm just exercising my first member right as a citizen yeah not breaking any laws like I don't know what's I don't know what his security I don't know what his deal is okay so it's my understanding that the clerk's office didn't ask her to leave she was outside the whole time but I guess one of them might have felt nervous and now he's not wanting to let her in down please so that's where we're at and I was trying to explain to him like Hey she can go in she can film watch hey I just watch your back a second okay um no you're good um you're not doing anything wrong as long as inquir what the public record absolutely absolutely no um as long as you're not accessing restricted areas or anything like that yeah no you're good um we just got to I'm going to have to talk to him yeah how's it going man you doing okay you doing good um you know where the clerk's office is so I could go straight there so the clerk's office is right here okay um like I said I don't know anything about the process to uh do a public information request I'm just afraid that he's got to put hands on me when he's not going to do that okay do that no you're yeah you're fine yeah like I said you're not access restricted areas you're good to go yeah just want to keep an eye on him cuz you know like I told her or I told him you know like she's free to film wherever yeah she is not absolutely is but he's he's a little upset about it he's saying that it's private property and I'm like no it's it's government it's public prop anybody can be anywhere so that's correct except for you know restricted areas but he's like well that's the rules and I'm like look man that's the law what I'm telling you so yeah no we're good you're good how it going man good good good well apparently the library has much different rules than a lot of the other places in the library you cannot film without Express written consent you also cannot film somebody in the Library without their personal consent okay apparently so here's the thing with that but this lady's dealing is okay appar it it is absolutely here's the thing with that that's why I was saying like like I was probably not explaining it correctly you know I wasn't try Li says that their policies are not going to tr La yeah I mean she can still be asked to leave but I certainly can't let her go into these buildings filming and disrupting well you can U as long as she's not there's nothing you can do to stop yeah as long as she's not interfering well that's restricted area she doesn't have business in the office going to in the sense that's where they've got a fall back just like we do just like this gentleman right here is filming right now I can't stop what I'm doing yeah yeah sure just because he's F yeah I feel you Sergeant forner explains to the security guard that even if the county did have policies in place that prohibited mums from filming the policies could not quot Trump the law according to article 6 Clause 2 of the US Constitution which is commonly known as the supremacy clause quot the Constitution and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof shall be the supreme law of the land and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby anything in the Constitution or laws of any state to the contrary not withstanding this means that government policies or even state laws that violate the rights conferred by the Federal Constitution cannot be legally enforced in court in this situation the First Amendment right to film would take precedence over any policy the county had in place prohibiting peaceful filming in the public parking lot and a court would likely find that even if such a policy did exist it could not be constitutionally imposed on Ms kums so you've got to learn to work around that we're okay unfortunately you know like oh not unfortunately but I mean that's just I mean it's especially working in the public you know you're going to have guys I with so much stupid stuff here man it's un like I said I'm not trying to not trying to not back you up but is stupid huh the first liit is stupid that's not what he said sir that's not what he said no sir not what he said like I said he said he deals with stupid stuff he didn't say stupid things happen here you know just silly stuff inter you're fine no you're good fine but yeah that's I mean that's something that you know it's just part of the you know freaked out Teresa over there and and it happened but I mean they've just got to learn to work around oh where did she go anyway she went in there she the county all right as long as she's not accessing restricted areas now if they ask me to remove her now the county clerk yeah can ask her to leave but as long as she's like causing any commotion or anything which I don't think she will right but but I mean when you start getting complaints well I don't want to be filmed that's not a valid reason yeah that's not a valid reason I mean it it like he can film he can turn around and film anybody in the public right now he want to it's annoying to some people but it's there's nothing wrong with itches is it's archives is actually down there I'm still going to have to go and make sure that you know there's not a problem down there well if there's a problem they'll call they will yeah you're not going to have to follow around the whole time I'm going to tell you I've when you do start doing that at that's where the problem's going to be for let them do their thing I I still and I'm doing my thing I'm doing my thing so I walk this place all day every day if I happen to walk in that direction I'm not following her I'm doing my job absolutely right absolutely so that's all all right the chop I just want to make sure no you're good man maintain here all right thanks for coming out appreciate yall after Miss kums left the encounter she was permitted to f film inside the clerk's office without any further interference from the security guard she posted the footage she obtained from her perspective on her YouTube channel on May 7th 2024 the day after the audit and later obtained deputy evans's and Sergeant fortner's body camera footage and shared it on her Channel Miss kums reported in comments on these videos that the security guard had been removed from his position on County property following the encounter overall Deputy Evans and Sergeant forner get an A for defending Miss kum's First Amendment right to film maintaining respectful demeanor throughout the encounter and refusing to violate Miss kum's constitutional rights by removing her from the property while I would have liked to see Deputy Evans be a bit more confident in his interactions with the security guard I applaud him for calling his supervisor to confirm that his understanding of the right to film was correct before taking any potentially incorrect or unlawful actions and I hope that other officers will learn from his example to become more willing to ask questions when they are uncertain regarding the legal nuances they need to apply to a certain situation both officers should be commended for their patience and professionalism when dealing with the security guard's aggressive and rude behavior and taking the opportunity to educate him of the protections provided to the right to film in public Ms kums also gets an a for remaining calm and respectful when faced with the security guard's beligerant strongly advocating for her right to film and refusing to comply with the security guard's attempts to interfere with her first amendment activity although Miss Kum sometimes struggled to articulate her arguments she overall did an excellent job of exercising her rights in a peaceful but persistent Manner and challenging the security guard for overstepping his lawful Authority even when the security guard became aggressive and rude M kums did not stoop to his level and she did not engage in antagonistic abusive or argumentative Behavior like some Auditors do allowing her to objectively document the encounter that occurred with without any sort of manipulation on her part I commend M kums for her efforts during this audit and I encourage her to continue her pursuit of First Amendment advocacy the security guard gets an F for maintaining an insolent and hostile demeanor in his interactions with both mums and Deputy Evans demonstrating a fundamental misunderstanding of the protections granted to filming by the First Amendment and seemingly misrepresenting the policies of the government facility where he was employed I am unsure why the security guard was so upset about Ms kum's non-disruptive filming and it is possible that he was actually reacting to the bruising his ego took when mums politely refused to answer his questions regardless security guards who work on government property need to have a firm grasp on the applicable First Amendment principles for their facility and it is essential that they do not violate the constitutional rights of citizens who exercise their rights in that public space hopefully the security guard learned something from this encounter and will'll avoid making this mistake again if he is ever employed to work on public property again let us know if there's an interaction or legal topic you would like us to discuss in the comments below thank you for watching and don't forget to check out my second channel for even more police interaction content [Music]