a lot of people only discover how to live when it's too late it can happen to even children I would not say that I live like there's no tomorrow but I treasure every single day that I'm alive and well so these are topics that are really excite me and I feel so privileged and blessed to be in their midst to really distill some of these words of wisdom [Music] welcome back to TFC budget debate I'm your host Reggie AKA or financial coconut you see I have changed a set of clothes every day there'll be a different set of clothes but we record back to back but uh I think today's podcast is an important one primarily because I think a lot of Millennials are thinking about this right which is the whole like retiring in Singapore looks a bit uninspiring so so I brought together a team of people to kind of try to help you paint a better picture what does it mean to retire in Singapore in the next few decades right so uh defie want to introduce yourself or Hors that don't know you yeah hi hi everybody I'm DNE I'm the financial planning Solutions lead at money hourl so we are a financial advisory firm under tasic trust so we are here to help um maybe singaporeans make better choices in terms of their financial planning so that they can have a better retirement okay so what does your role Encompass as the lead now what do you do yeah so in terms of financial planning I think there's a whole spectrum that you can look at from the day to day to the insurance plans you need to the Investments and all the way to retirement estate planning so we take a very comprehensive look at all the uh options that you have out there try to come up with Simple Solutions that can work for majority of singaporeans yeah yeah but as with all plans I think the assumptions are what is important the goals are what is important right because I do think for a lot of our audience they they understand the general idea of financial planning right but if the end goal is different that means if I'm not retiring here if I'm retiring somewhere else or if I'm doing this whole retirement method in a different way then the whole formula changes right so I think that's kind of where we are where we are going with so yes our proud retire Ashok back on the show introduce yourself for all that don't know you hi I'm Ashok I retired about 5 years ago I'm almost 60 and I have two adult children so uh I guess I'm not sure if children want to be called adult children that's a good point but it's okay we asset we asset in our parents point of view we are always kids right so yes yes uh yeah so that's me yeah yeah okay so and and Dr trong for our audience that don't know you would you like to introduce yourself I'm still working also in my late 50s sadly sadly not retired yet thank you for having me I'm I'm so glad I'm here because I've got two big gurus here and I I see regie as another Guru oh thank you I am Dr Chong poing from HCA hospice this is a charity uh that is the biggest in Singapore looking after children and adults with very serious illness who want to spend more time at home and potentially die at home I happen to also be the vice chair of the Singapore hospice Council which is an umbrella body that represents 25 uh agencies that uh serve and support uh families in Singapore fair fair I know um a lot of people in the care economy they are really serving right because from the numbers they don't make as much as other other categories right so from the people that work in the space they don't make as much as they Med income you know it's is that's why that's why he retired you still working no no no no but but people go above and beyond in this category to do a lot for society right so certainly yeah I suppose uh you you bring out a very good point uh there are other aspirations other than remuneration or money that excites us I'm very happy to be in my own space so can can you actually highlight a little bit for us like what is a hospice you know because like for the uneducated I feel very jittery talking about the episode for the uneducated it is a space where people go and you know finish their last L of life you know but but what what really is the ecosystem of hospice what what does it do and and that whole thing you know paint us that picture hospice is a philosophy rather than a space or a location in other words it is an attitude it is a a way of life so what we do are to help people do that living and potentially die if it does happen maybe it sounds a bit abstract but I would just say that U anyone with a serious illness with a risk of dying can be you know supported by hospice and we help to kind of almost like a tour guide help them to navigate the healthcare system help them to bring out all the important things in life other than dying or my expiry dates uh and also to uh perhaps make some legacies not the wheel but legacies that uh you know beyond their time people can still remember and uh can remember it sweetly yeah so I I will say I I like that story line of a hospice that I want people to know the other word that people use is pallative care so uh palive care is something that is a little bit more Upstream so we introduced it once somebody's diagnosed with uh cancer somebody is diagnosed with a very sort of advanced organ failure or perhaps even dementia so we bring in paliative care to start those conversations Upstream hospice somehow just has this connotation of like end of life care but it's not just about care it's about like I say an attitude so uh we don't have just doctors and nurses working in the hospice we have got counselors we have got spiritual care people we have got volunteers plenty of them okay fair so help me understand like from your experience with the people that you work with right like what are some you know very interesting things that you've observed you know as they go through that So-Cal last phase of life just so our audience get be color but I'll just start by saying that a lot of people only discover how to live when it's too late it is something that I have taken to Heart personally and uh I would not say that I live like there's no tomorrow but I treasure every single day that I'm alive and well so I think that's the lesson that I I hear from some of my uh beneficiaries that I've had the privilege to support and I think this is the message I want to tell everybody don't wait until it's too late and uh also death happens anytime so the other story I want to say is that uh it can happen to even children so I I'm actually strained to look after dying children as part of a hospice and paliative Care kind of discipline so uh it's not just uh something that happens to older people I have looked after younger people adult children um who are like 20s 30s and 40s who are dying they wonder what they've done to their own life why they didn't retire early enough and uh what have they got to leave behind after they die so these are topics that uh really excite me and I feel so privileged and blessed to be in their midst to really distill some of these words of wisdom and also insights that I would never had kind of gone to you know realize uh living my cushy Life as a doctor Fair can I add something on top see I'm talking as an outsider but I actually feel it connects well with Finance as well we plan for our finances we have to plan for death because planning for finances means that you don't worry about your future planning for death means we can actually live life well because the fear of death is diminished when it's familiar rather than when it's something which you don't want to talk about and it suddenly comes upon you and you know it forces you to think of words like enough because when you have it enough then in a sense you can move on to the next stage and the next stage and the next stage which retirement is one of those enough so yeah of death I kind of agree with you uh conceptually is um is logical but uh actually in my experience people don't plan for their death they plan for their retirement they don't plan necessarily for their death because uh for some strange reason they think they're Immortal uh they think it will not happen to them other people maybe yeah until their child get diagnosed with cancer until their wives uh you know get diagnosed with some serious illness and then get told you've got only three months left so uh often times it's really last minute it's in a state of panic it's in the whole kind of helplessness situation and and I I wonder how that comes to be uh at least in in because you don't have the conversations if we have the conversations I feel it should be easier if you start having the conversations on end of life or death when you're still healthy but but it is a fair it is a fair extension right of retirement means eventually you kind of like plan to death right so it's kind of like a natural progression so so defy will say when she whips out the calculator like oh how much time are you what's your Horizon and not just that because uh I think it is a fair statement to say that in the last L of life that's where a lot of medical expenses go out right so so that whole thing it's also part of planning your finances right I'm beginning to see a lot of intersection that's why we are doing this yeah yeah any thoughts there for for our audience yeah so I think there's always the longevity how you long you live and then how many years you live in bad health so I think the years that you live in bad health is something we need to plan for and it's partially covered by government schemes like cashal life which provides smooth transition level of payout that that helps with the caregiving if you get diagnosed so so from from your point of view is it enough like some of these policies that government has kind of introduced over time you know so like what other than cpf Life cash you live you know and some of these integrated shoe plans there so many changes right so like is it enough you know like what's the situation now or so I think for government schemes is always designed to meet the very very basic needs so same as medicial life casual life also provides that basic needs if you need a little bit more you want a more comfortable a figure that you think you might need a figure higher than that day you need to get additional Insurance you need to save a bit more need to start investing early so that's the house view yes okay okay so so so government provides that just enough but if you want more you definitely need to save more and plan for it okay okay and and to push it a little bit more then recently there was some Chang right like okay this out the budget recently there was some changes to the integrated Shield plan you know like U any comment that you you want to say I know there's like a there's like a market mechanisms at play right but but it it affects the way we plan our finances it it affects the models that that we that we use because government policies a bit harder to shift right there's a lot of political penalty when you shift it too hard right but the private markets you know they just made some big adjustments and we like huh like that how right so so any any point of view so I think integrative show plan is very familiar to a lot of us I think seven and 10 Sor have the integrated shoe plan and there are many many tiers to it you have the very standard B1 plans all the way to the private hospital so we Advocate that you buy the best that you think you need so it need not be the Private Hospital one it could be the B1 one but it gives you the additional level of assurance like covers things that might not be covered by medicial life like pre and post hospitalization expenses and then maybe like dialysis so it gives the additional level of coverage but you should always um work at a budget make sure you get a plan that you're comfortable with yeah and unfortunately as you enter retirement PR get too high you have to prepare to downgrade even if you have never used it really really so so okay maybe is there any shared point of view here around premiums downgrading and then that that whole thing yeah because because my my point of view is like yeah it's a reality because your premum just Spike right you know as as you enter high probability category of you know getting any illnesses I I I did a panel and then one of the the guys raise his hand say uh you know I'm so and so age and uh I got no way out of this right there's no affordable insurance around then I was like yeah the market forces will never allow it to happen right so if the state wants to do it then that's a different that's a different question right uh but but that's a LIF reality for a lot of retirees right any any thought here around some of these like insurance policies they go up what will you do maybe maybe share a little bit how are you managing your finances so far so I have seen how the you know the table as how it'll go up I've also seen the table itself change at least once in the last several years so in some ways I'm not even sure what I'll be paying at h85 I think I should be able to afford it because many of my other expenses will go down I also have a hope and you know you never know if this will actually come true that because compared to 2017 years ago when I came to Singapore the amount of support the government is giving has been increasing over the years uh organizations like yours are also providing sort of the non-financial support so I think when I'm 85 if the premiums have become unaffordable at that time I think there will be a lot more support because there will be lot more old people there will be lot better techniques to manage end of life care so personally think about it but don't be terrified that you'll be out of if you're in a lower social economic level I think there could be worries but hopefully the government will step up as it has been is it enough I mean for to the public It's never enough but I think uh you know it's come a long way okay so the assumption is msf will continue to get a bigger and bigger budget M will continue to get a big bigger budget you know a sacret cow that the government or the policy makers never slay uh which is for us to own our own Healthcare so uh I I'm not quite sure your dream will come true that the state will sort of pick this step up uh my kind of opinion is about I could decide to eat in a hawker Center or in a Michelin star restaurant on a routine basis it depends on my own means and my taste for food you know how about your taste for dying and how it should look like where should it happen for example I think those are fundamental questions that I ask myself all the time since I'm doing this like hardcore you know uh day in day out so so uh running a charity like uh mine we provide uh Services which includes bringing the doctors nurses and social workers into the homes of the patients free of charge I go on rotar every day almost uh to actually uh give them a helpline that they can call me even at 12: midnight uh to tell me my mom is in a lot of pain can we do something if I could instruct them over the phone I will if I couldn't I will pick up my bags and I visit them at home just to ensure somebody's mom is not in pain just to ensure in case she dies she should not die in pain so these Services have been you know available for the last 30 over years we just celebrated our 35th Anniversary and I like to think that it will continue although maybe I call it idealistic uh kind of mindset as a charity we do struggle to keep ourselves in that black we still trying to think of various uh clever ways to uh ensure that our operations can be covered and and bless you know bless us we have lots of philanthropists uh you know and donors and funders who are uh able to help us in those in so many ways all these years uh I hope that this will continue but something will give and that's when I think what you also said uh is true the government has actually stepped up you know year on year I'm seeing I feel like uh the people on the palive care and hospice scene are riding a w because the state recognizes that this is a looming sort of uh future it has invested heavily in various schemes that Reggie mentioned earlier and it has become so much easier to look after somebody at home now if this is their wish to to kind of die at home compared to years before and I think uh I look to the future with a lot of uh good faith even if my organization can no longer provide this for free I hope that one day Medici Shield life and uh some of the other help schemes will be extended to uh Home Care currently it's not so hospice or end of Life Care happens in three different places in the hospital in the home or in a hospice which is a facility where people go till Regis to die and an educated view no it's correct but what we are providing people are options there are real people who need to move into a hospice if the symptoms are so overwhelming that caregivers are struggling to cope if I've never gotten married I'm already 990 and I'm single and a loner who's to look after me a hospice it will welcome every one of these people with openup that's Aur who will want to die at home actually three quarters of us in Singapore except that the services have not uh ramped up enough in terms of capacity to accommodate them and that's where Minister on has been investing lots of resources and in some ways urging us to ramp out of capacity because uh this is the fact uh people are getting older and people are kind of getting sicker strangely uh because you built a new hospital it's full the are always crowded right so uh I mean this is the reality but I I think as I've said uh I have good faith of how uh you know the charitable sector the state and also hopefully the rest of us will be able to kind of recognize this have conversations about them and be more prepared rather than more panicked uh when the situation comes because it can happen anytime so but but I I think for a lot of our audience they would also like to kind of get a wider picture you know around like retirement in Singapore right that is an important part but like what is good retirement you know like we want to inspire them a little bit right like I think the Crux of the question is people are thinking of going elsewhere to retire right at least at least people with options you've been doing this for a while and you're quite you know iterative if how you look at retirement so how has that wisdom kind of transcend over time where are you now thinking about like retirement in is retirement in Singapore like good or quality you know from from your point of view I am financially comfortable in retirement it is not cheap to retire in Singapore if you don't have a fully paid home if you do as Dr Chong pointed out you can choose to eat in Hawker centers you can choose to cook at home until you can't so self-supporting children as if you have children fully paid home and a willingness to live the good life without NE necessarily spending much which is possible I think living ruring Singapore is not difficult that's my personal view having said that as I said I might not be the right person because I don't have to make all these difficult choices which other people might have to make can you elaborate what is living the good life in Singapore mean to me living the good life is not about Singapore or anywhere else living the good life is just having a definition of enough in your mind and being able to stay within that enough so there are two ways to have enough one is to have a lot the other is to want little I think the first one is not always in our control the second one we can train ourselves to do it if we not come naturally and I think you know I tell younger people whenever I you know we talk about retirement train yourself to want little then you can still spend a lot if you choose to but it's not a compulsion it it's a choice so to me the good life essentially means having enough which means trying to want as little as possible yeah yeah fair I think it's really in line with what we are also trying to advocate so what we do the financial planning space so we don't even start with what insurance or Investments to buy but really look at our daily habits so there's one thing that we strongly Advocate which is paying yourself first which is from your salary instead of saving what you have the left of what you have spent but to set aside your savings first and then spend with what you have remaining and then you try to build this habit until you're used to it such that the end of your working life you have a nice n and you are able to live with less than you think that you want yeah and also budgeting is also something that we encourage to always look at expenses and look at what you what is really a want and versus a new did Money a will try to model this thing like how much do singaporeans really need on average okay so we're not saying like in a normal distribution there's always a people on both sides right but we're talking about like most of the people based on the data sets that you guys have right where do most people you know live or spend you know in in that like consumption pattern in in so in terms of financial planning space we look at income replacement ratio which is what's the retirement income you need as a percentage of what you last Dre when you're working so internationally it's about 2/3 so if you for example if you earn 1,000 you should get at least 600 in your retirement that you're able to lead a retirement lifestyle that is close to what you're living before you retired So based on internal studies and Matrix you need to save about 12 10 15% about 12% of your salary every year so the thing is cpf the cpf system actually stays up to 37% but actually a lot of it goes to housing it goes to the ordinary account and at the start of your working life only 6% goes to special account so that's actually quite a big gap especially at the start of your working career we are able to compound more so actually that's why we set up this uh rubri rules of Thum to encourage people to save that 10% more of your income or maybe build up to 15% so that you are able to keep it up and then as your salary grows you also increase our savings okay but but Singapore has a quite a high saving rate right in general that's what I understand to be so it's a two3 replacement income even a fair measurement right because because if if let's say I make 10,000 and then my savings rate is 5,000 that means objectively I spend less than half of it right so that could kind of compress my formulas even more right or or or to be safe if you save half of your salary you're doing very very well I think what she's saying is that you retire with slightly more than half of your salary on a maintenance basis every month and and I think you could look at it as um expenses rather than income because I think what you earn in your maybe 40s will be quite different from what you need in your when you're approaching retirement maybe your children have grown up you finished paying for your home maybe you have um htb least by B so I think your your expenses do go down as you enter different phases in life okay okay can I add a little bit more to your pay yourself so I have a slightly broader view which actually chimes with what you're saying about Charities Etc I actually think right from first paycheck provided you're not literally living you know below the poverty line give 10% save 20% and keep all your spending within 70% because saving 20% prepares for your in a sense your material future but you got to prepare for your legacy what do you leave behind what is your feeds your soul or feeds your spirit so I actually think right from day one giving is also important thank you I it also forces you to think about those who don't have and therefore it forces you to spend less because you think oh they have even less so I can spend less yeah I think Dr Chong found himself in the right panel he's very happy like wow very nice no no I I totally agree I suppose uh all of us are gifted by you know the one above uh in in in many different ways yeah so you are gifted in the you know the financial kind of expertise and and uh competencies I'm gifted in my medical Knowledge and Skills so I give back by serving you give back by donating yeah so I like to think that 10% you uh kind of recommended really helps your karma for one of a better word right and it what goes around comes around I I I I totally believe that and I feel like I'm so blessed you know doing the work I do and so many awful things in my life I've kind of overcome it I like to think it's part of my karma strange to hear a scientist say this but I I I I like to think so yeah so the other uh sort of thing I wanted to say uh is also in line with what you said teaching yourself to need less so uh the words I keep hearing people who are dying tell me if only I had done this or not done that if only I had retired early actually U you know Rings really loud in my head every time I think about my own retirement why am I still working you know where's my family what priorities uh in my life I put right up there the the most important thing I heard was also actually you need so little to be happy and these were very wise words said by so many different people at different strata in society somebody who was not so educated even a child who was dying was able to say something like that to me I I like to think that this is almost like a maxim it's like a you know something you will not argue with and I I I feel it's a notion that I use a lot uh as I help people to reframe what you are losing you are gaining in so many different ways yeah yeah I I feel like very hard to argue with [Laughter] that but but but back on this topic of like painting a picture for for young younger Singapore at least Millennials LA right when they look at you know retiring in in uh Singapore you know there there's a lot of like qualms about like oh yeah you know it's such a small place you know it's uh very intense you know like like it's very tight and it's great for business great for train you know a lot of those things but is it really a nice place to live out your life or you know to live a different phase of life right because I think these days people on the retire younger and younger right so there's that whole this whole spectrum of thought you know that goes beyond you know some of these like hospice element or jump in and and from a a young baby boomer perspective uh but really it's just the stories I hear from uh friends and also patients and Families you actually don't need to retire only when you're old you can retire younger and then come back to work again I is that called a retirement is a retirement necessarily permanent so I have heard of very many people stopping work at 30 and then going out to see what's out there because they are afraid they will miss something just recently I uh you know was uh walking on a tour in Japan with my wife and struggling to climb the hills and then we start asking ourselves okay so these are the things that we have saved money to to do at this time of our life I could easily pay for the trip which cost a lot of money uh but I worry that I might not be able to enjoy it when the time comes so therefore uh I begin to see how Youth and time become so important so precious that we must never waste it and therefore think about if you truly have a pension for some of these adventures in your life you know move away from the normal kind of G and and walk out courageously to pursue those things and then come back again right so and then another dimension is about how uh now I'm pondering my retirement yeah I I know I'm a late Comer but uh the same age you're on track you're on track so um I wonder whether I should even retire because I fear uh actually not working that leap is is very frightening yeah but but I I thought I I just needed to bite the bullets you know at and and do the stuff that I've always wanted to do outside of medicine because I've got so many other passion whether it's as a volunteer as a botanist or even as a designer uh but I might not have enough time on my side and I don't want to like uh when somebody comes and see Dr Chong when he's dying oh if only I had yeah you know those are those are regrets I don't really want to live with or die with M definitely what your thoughts yeah yeah the person Al I think for retirement you need to have a good retirement you need a few factors so one is money the other one is good health and I think the last one is having a purpose yeah you must well very upas today's discussion must and want to do the very you know I know say it's wrong I don't saying it's wrong yeah yeah just just so you you have something you look forward to it could be volunteering it could be pursuing a hobby you've always wanted to in your youth but something that you look forward to every day so so is that the magic that is lacking in Singapore right because more and more people when when they think of going elsewhere okay so so that could one reason of course is cost right and if we if we put aside this cost element to to to the discussion that means we assume our audience can choose right so maybe they want to seek some value they want to seek a different way of life you know that that's their own perogative right but we assume that they all can afford right but the the fact that the internet is so into like oh maybe we need to go somewhere else maybe Singapore is no longer a place you know for me to to live out my life it also depends on what you want retirement So So currently the my Elder generation who are retired what they want actually is family and friends exactly yeah which you cannot find where you move to a reement village exactly and and that's the that's the part that that's the social network that you use yeah and and maybe that's the part that that we are lacking right where where because things are moving so fast we're so transient you know we're doing so many things as a country that more and more singaporeans maybe don't feel like they want to stay here I don't know are we going there to your point about relationships I think what you get is what you invest in and I think if we invest in relationships we will have relation broadly and whether it's family or friends so if you go somewhere else when you're still healthy and young you can build a community there perhaps and if you're here with people around you and yet you don't invest in relationships then you're not you're going be lonely even in Singapore so I don't think it's more about how much you put into it fair fair fair I also think it's about courage and passion yeah yeah you did say about courage right you know totally totally the whole IDE stopping these people from retiring if you want just go I mean yeah so but they are afraid they are worried or they are concerned you know which is good because we we mustn't be Hasty or irresponsive ible but I feel like uh it really takes a lot of Courage when I say passion I mean you must want it and you must want it very hard because uh life is uh a lot about trade-offs you cannot have your cake and eat it right so you just needed to decide which is the most important thing to me at this point in my life and then just bite the bullet and and and see what uh life brings you okay I I find you know uh again it's like My Philosophy now of living like there's no tomorrow uh but again uh I also resonate with de's uh point about uh purpose yeah as long as uh there is this purpose and I equate that with meaning uh which is some of those uh which is an attribute that actually sustains so many people once that is clear actually nothing can stop you yeah uh whether it's family uh if that happens not to be your priority at this point in time uh it is about pursuing the the either possible or the potenti I I think those are the stuff that people young people in particular need to you know uh think about rather than wait till later like oh I we always talk about my wife and I was oh when we are retired we want to go learn French we pick up P has it happened I picked up Pi French not French okay French can wait French can wait yeah you know I I I this are ruminations honestly uh that you know both of us have with each other uh thinking at at the cups of retirement I have a kind of theory of retirement feels if you'll bear with me for a couple of minutes so I think there are a few buckets of things work gives us one is money status identity so when we give up our jobs nobody calls us say Dr Chong you know for instance because you're not that identity and the status is gone money most of us have prepared by the time we retired so we think of money but you don't think enough in my opinion about status and identity then there's the second kind of bucket is busyness and engagement so work Keeps Us busy so morning toight something is happening women are a little bit better than this because you're anyway multitask I think men are quite linear in the way we do things so men struggle with the tramit more in my personal experience so that busyness and engagement so you do things that keep you occupied and some of the things that keep you occupied also involve your mind you know uh you get interested you get absorbed and the third and that's I think most important which you point to one is a sense of purpose which uh is meaning and of purpose which we all look for and you can find it in all sorts of strange things it doesn't have to be in something meaningful like you can say I want to be build a fantastic collection of old records it can give you a sense of purpose but you have to find the sense of purpose but the other thing is at work most of us who do who are professionals we have challenges thrown to us all the time that we are actually not equipped to do but we learn learn and we execute them sometimes we fail sometimes we succeed but we're always learning new things and challenging ourselves in retirement if you're not careful you kind of coast and I think that itself can be a source of Aging whereas emotionally and mentally you stay younger longer in my opinion I mean I'm not a doctor or a psychologist but if you are giving yourself challenges where you can't fail Lear the piano could be one French could be one uh so I think we need to create all those nice things which keep us Young when working in retirement so that's I think some of the things that people without articulating it fear about retirement what am I going to do what's going to keep me interested will I have a sense of purpose will I decline gradually interesting I'm taking notes now yeah yeah yeah no mental notes I I I never thought the panel would end up here but I think it's so much better than just a pure discussion oh sing to expensive need to go somewhere else you know because because now it is about contextualizing those needs into what Singapore then can offer you as a platform right to achieve those other needs and if Singapore then can you know build that platform to achieve all these other needs you know in retirement then it's a no-brainer right then then it's it's a good choice could be something you seek out for yourself it's something that you are aware of and you actively go look for it and you think about it and you Ponder and you look for it rather than what is provided by the country State L hierarchy of needs but more more parks are helpful right youan thinking about like uh you know what else is there for me what what what is the most uh I suppose uh something that transcends our daily lives no I think these are the the thoughts that I hope you know our people who are watching uh can Muse and and reflect on yeah yeah um so so that's that but maybe in closing right uh do you have certain wish list that you would like to see you know within the retirement ecosystem that Singapore continues to move forward right I think that that's something that we can we can share you know with our audience for me personally bigger Mar safe ecosystem Sho needs to be stronger the state needs to take more personally when when I look at my older relatives most of them seem quite comfortable I think because they have a fully paid home which is quite a big asset which there are many ways to monetize now so what is lacking I feel is the things for them to do things to keep them engaged because they used to be working and suddenly when they stop work they have all these free time and I I think that could be more channels and more activities more things that they could that could engage them more actively like maybe part-time employment a casual employment things for them to contribute back maybe I I thought a question back right why are these people not taking it in their stride to go and try new things because nobody's stopping them right because I keep hearing these things oh we need to do more for the elderly we need to do more for was like elderly right if they if they able right they can still move around right they can like cut my queue at the bus right why can't they go and figure out something do right like like you know what I mean like so so just want to kind of open up that like because it always feels like we're helping them they're not that jalot what right like like you know so so the new elderly is a different population all together like us soon so any any other things you would love some wish list broadly we are a bit of ages society and I think maybe it's not just organizations and corporates looking to hire older people casual or part-time or at the same time older people also having you know what kind of expectations they have uh so maybe it's a dialogue the government's already talking of has been doing this re-employment stuff maybe more needs to just uh uh more time needs to pass more attitudes there's a lot of interesting stuff that's happening even you have the Sunray scheme where you can hire uh you know good people with govern 7% of pay for 3 years I think that's amazing so there's stuff there it's just we don't need any more schemes we need it all to start working yeah maybe more stories you know there are like more celebratory and less like oh need help need help so maybe Singapore is feel oh you know the Elder life very chalot you know but yes any any last things I I I have two things they are from two different sort of domains one is related to mind the other ones related to money and I'm going to ask you you guys for advice related to my area of work it would would be about recognizing that really in line with your theme of uh relationships and families I often found people struggling to look after their loved ones whether it's young or old who are dying struggling with work and caregiving duties yes you can throw them the caregiver Grant uh but actually people need to work they're afraid of losing their jobs and and you hear people are like getting more and more maternity leave if you can give people maternity leave to look after a baby who's just born can you give people some kind of leave to look after somebody who is dying at home on the other side of the uh Spectrum so I I I I'm a strong advocate for this compassionate Lea is for somebody after that someone has died which is a kind of a t too late I think that that's what I'm hoping for uh that's personal no no and I think it's it's a you you can essentially just make uh childcare Leaf multi-use right like you can without without family care right very small number of number to keep to do all the you know heavy lifting at home if you truly want people to die at home because currently it's uh you know outsourced to our domestic helpers but if I'm dying I want my wife my son my daughter to to be close to me rather than like you know busy in her lawyer's office or you know stuff like that the other uh one is related to money so uh as you guys know um I lost my special account as a the doctor uh who has worked all his life uh you know building this n a suddenly the sa was taken away from me uh I thought doing my own sums the way I know uh I had this amount of money and then suddenly it goes somewhere else so I'm like now struggling to find instruments of different types that are safe at this age I don't want to you know mess with it in any other way it's a big struggle and I don't think I'm the only one struggling so I'm I'm really hoping my wish list is the state sorry uh can think about a scheme uh whether you know entrusting it to a fund manager or whatever that ordinary singaporeans who don't really know how to invest uh don't want to burn themselves at this stage of their life can then uh invest the money with a decent return as part of a whole package of you know retirement planning so just to push that a little bit right from your point of view like cpf live is not enough or because you have too much sitting around you why why you why you not consider 10 more than 10K a month currently shamelessly and I'm going to get only 3,000 even if I put it up at yeah enhance right so when you tell me I need 60% or you know uh for subsistence uh and and certainly 3,000 is Never Enough ining can go Japan already uh no I'm fine I'm I'm learning a lesson to to to sort need lesser uh and and actually you know uh pulling it down in terms of expectations uh and and I can uh do so much more with less and if my patients can I can too so I I think that's that's my that's a fair that's a fair question because the annuity program essentially you know pays you all the way right it's like a longevity risk management but maybe some some additional thing that can create that varying I I think one of those themes that surrounds retirement uh it's security very big for me I want to have that sense of Safety and Security as I kind of like age and then I can you do my lofty stuff like okay I don't have to worry about money and I go and do my other things whether it's volunteer work and what it's it's it's very funny when you are struggling inside to go down there to help people the mindset is about oh they're worse off than you but then it feels a bit like a sham I and and I think if I can feel secure and safe inside when I go out I go 100% I give my all because uh I have been responsible and I have saved for my own family or myself I think that's that notion that struggling with so before the state comes in with any solution do you have any solution your like money hours point of view maybe I I give you the last word yes yes yeah so so I think when it comes to investing or handling money accumulation is always always easier there are so many ways for to invest yeah so so the problem comes to decumulation with that nest egg that you have built how do you start to withdraw in a sustained way so that it can last you until end of life and it's sufficient for you so currently there there are some funds out there but we're not sure whether they are low cost enough and adequate enough so I think hopefully it's something we can look at to design another like retirement income plan that's low cost and safe okay and gives the uh in closing thank you for your time you know I hope more of our audience get a wider view of of retirement right it's not just about geography it's not just about cost I mean all those things are are real right certain way of life is real you know but I think it's a lot more of some of the bigger you know like more atas questions you know that high level high level which I do think a lot of working professionals will struggle with right because it goes beyond money it's a lot identity you know invigorating the Mind existential crisis it's all these other things so yeah if you have any other questions for our guest and put in the comment section uh if not you can go to the financial coconut.com drop your email so that future we have anything we'll let you know and with that we'll see you on the next panel bye-bye [Music]