a lot of people do this on dates and it drives me crazy Look watch this Vanessa yesterday you and my team did some matchmaking Yes Okay so we had the very first date and I pre- coached a gentleman and I was coaching the girls via an earpiece and I was shocked by these dates Please don't do that This is why we're having a baby crisis I got angry after this date Why i was like girl we handed this guy to you on a silver platter She was physically attracted to him and I asked her "Would you like to go out with him again?" And she said to me "Really?" Yeah Yeah And now we are missing opportunities for connection the thing that's going to make us healthy happy and live a long time Vanessa Van Edwards has helped over 400,000 students crack the code on human behavior decoding universal body language and sharing sciencebacked secrets for better dates smoother conversations and bigger career wins Vanessa Van Edwards welcome back The first place I want to start is can we change who we are they've actually researched this and every person on planet Earth has these five personality traits and they fall on a spectrum high medium or low and they're somewhere between 42 to 57% heritable for example neuroticism which is how you worry and high neurotics like me produce less serotonin more slowly Serotonin makes us feel calm and so like I am having far more negative experiences than the same person in the room and that's genetic But there is 30 to 40% potential for change You want a better relationship you want a raise you want a promotion you want more friends The good news is anyone can learn these cues and techniques such as decoding the seven universal micro expressions we all do unconsciously How to spot a liar the number one mistake people make in a first impression and how to become a master communicator Can I teach them to you please let's start with This has always blown my mind a little bit 53% of you that listen to this show regularly haven't yet subscribed to the show So could I ask you for a favor before we start if you like the show and you like what we do here and you want to support us the free simple way that you can do just that is by hitting the subscribe button And my commitment to you is if you do that then I'll do everything in my power me and my team to make sure that this show is better for you every single week We'll listen to your feedback We'll find the guests that you want me to speak to and we'll continue to do what we do Thank you so much Vanessa Van Edwards welcome back Thank you for having me back How you been oh my gosh your folks are so kind Can I just say since the last interview the incredible people have reached out and just been supportive and kind They ask amazing questions and so I'm just so grateful So I've been really good Just in case anybody doesn't know who you are and what you do you're going to have to take me back What is it you do and who are you i'm a recovering awkward person and I help other awkward folks learn how to communicate I have books and courses and I love helping very very smart people share their ideas better Communicate online and in person Oh all of it All of it Slack text email online in person on the phone We can talk about vocal power video power You are communicating all the time even if you don't realize it And I that's that's the hidden opportunity How important is it like how pivotal is it and can it be for someone's life if they master the skill of communication first impressions and all of the things that you educate us on so articulately it will get you everything you want You want a better relationship you want a soulmate you want a raise you want a promotion you want a business you want more friends you want a support system it will even get you longevity That's how strong I feel about it If you have incredible relationships and you're able to communicate your ideas so people like you and they listen your life changes But is it is it not genetic you know like are are we set in our ways look there are certain people born out the womb charismatic Great hand gestures great eyebrows right out the womb There are those very unique people but most of us learn charisma Most really really charismatic leaders they've learned ah this non-verbal cue gets people to smile Oh this vocal power people pay attention and lean in And they've accidentally or purposefully learned how to hone their charisma And the good news is I think anyone can learn it Anyone no matter how awkward you are believe me I'm proof You can learn it You're proof I'm recovering awkward person I was so awkward I have I had a really hard time communicating with people I was not wellliked I was had very few friends If I can learn it anyone can learn it I promise It's almost impossible to believe that you were an awkward person I promise I You know also awkwardness dresses up in different ways right so I think most people when they think of awkward they think of that stereotypical robotic unreadable saying weird things That was not my brand of awkward My brand of awkward was trying to be impressive when I clearly wasn't Telling funny stories that were not funny talking too much Shocker right it was saying the wrong things and overcommunicating I also had that Labrador energy you know like that golden retriever energy where I'm like do you know what I mean she just stuck her tongue out I'm like super into people And that was awkward because people would be like "Back up It's okay." And that was awkward because it created I I was so overeager I so wanted people to like me that I feel like you know I was leaning into everyone all the time and that created awkwardness for people because I was trying so hard Write into the show or speak to me in the street and it's so surprising that the thing even if they live in these you know densely populated cities the sort of most pressing issue on their mind is I don't know how to make a friend And it's funny because sometimes they start to be in a gym and it's like there's 300 people surrounding us right now and not knowing how to walk up and say hello or introduce yourself Yeah But a lot of us I think have casual friends We have like you know acquaintances people they know what we do but then we don't know how to level up Like I believe that everyone should have core friendship values Mine are for me personally respect meaning they don't show up late They respect my time Self honesty I actually like honesty but I prefer self honesty in a friend I had friendships that didn't work for a long time because they lied to themselves about things And I am not a liar So I would be like "But he's terrible to you." And they'd be like "What no he's not." Selfdeception doesn't work for me That's a core friendship value Cannot do it Do you know what I'm saying self honesty Self honesty specifically Um and the last one is depth So once I started going deep I realized I need that I cannot have a surface level friend Like I want to know how is your marriage but how is it really like I want to go really really deep And if I sense that there's any kind of hesitation there we're not going to be friends So I think it's important to think about yes hobbies great like you want to do activities with these people but what are your core friendship values and how do I figure out what my core friendship values are okay Think about all the things that drive you crazy about your current friends Okay Okay Yeah Think about friendships that didn't work out that had a lot of potential but like they you just they fizzled you never quite had a good time with them or friends that you get together with them all the time but they still they still wouldn't be a best friend Why okay Yeah Like what what is blocking what is missing there and it could be on either side right it's like not all just up to them So think about what drives you crazy and then like what makes you feel healed what makes you feel good what makes you feel calm what makes you feel like yourself Personal responsibility is a big one for me I think give me an example of that Just like it's it's a deep belief that you are in control of your life and you are control of your outcomes because then it's like almost the antithesis of victimhood Totally And you don't want to be dealing with a friend who's um chronically engaged in like victimhood you know So that was you want heroes And how many people have you taught the skill of better communication and better connections to in the last decade oh my gosh Well at least 400,000 students who I can count but millions more Millions 100,000 students Yes And it's it's actually probably way more than that but that's just what we can count And what is like the essence of what they're trying to get cuz obviously a skill is a path to something that they want What is the thing that they want they want to be master communicators Why they want to be able to ask for what they want and get it If you are a master communicator no matter what you want again if it's a partner or a business deal you can get it if you can communicate Well can you make me a master communicator for sure Let's do it then Let's do it The first place I want to start is with first impressions Yeah And how one can make a great first impression because first impressions are like I make them all day every day When I meet people on the podcast in business in in the street at the gym someone might listen to the show they come up to me So I'm constantly trying to think about how to make a better first impression because from the work that I've read of yours they really matter right they really matter They really our first impressions are actually very accurate They they find 76% accurate with our personality traits In other words people can accurately guess after a first impression how extroverted you are how agreeable how neurotic Actually neurotic is the hardest one to guess We can hide that really well Openness and conscientiousness We're pretty good at guessing that Like I could guess that based on just the first few seconds of interaction which means they're lasting So if you've made a bad first impression it's hard to recover I I hate to be the bearer bad news We can work on it but nailing that first impression will set you up for a lifetime of success with that person So it's very important that we don't throw them away And this is the number one mistake people make in a first impression They do it like this Oh hi Nice to meet you Looking down at their phone or their iPad or their computer or their notepad or their book When we are looking down it looks very much like the universal defeat posture Universal defeat is when we tuck our chin to our chest We usually have our very little space between our shoulders and our earlobes We have our arms close to our sides This Yeah Don't you feel kind of horrible you look horrible Oh thank you When you check your phone every time you check your phone you accidentally look like a loser And I mean that literally in terms of losing and winning So in a first impression you're waiting in the waiting room for a big job interview You're waiting for your date for possibly your perfect person And what are you doing checking your phone So I'm I'm sat there looking like a loser Yeah That first impression that happens in the first few seconds of seeing you And this is another mistake introverts make They think their first impression happens starts the moment they start talking No your first impression happens the moment someone first sees you That's when they walk into a room open the door walk into a restaurant or look at your profile picture Profile pictures are even more important They've found that people make a first impression of you within the first 100 milliseconds of looking at your profile picture That's so fast that you barely even realize you saw a picture But we are so attuned to look at someone's facial expressions their body posture what's visible our clothing our ornaments And what's fascinating about this research is they found that different pictures of the same person can give different first impressions which means we are in control of our first impressions If different pictures of the same person like if you have five different pictures of yourself and you put them up all different LinkedIn profiles you people are going to make different judgments of you which means you can control the kind of judgment you want to make by picking the right picture but also having the right body language when someone first sees you Someone did a study on that Yeah I think Simin Vazier I think did this study Yeah don't quote me but I I believe Simin Vazier does a lot on digital first impressions And what's incredible is that small tweaks to your cues can have a massive impact on your impression So for example I've played around with this on mine where I'll have my hand in my picture Like there's a big difference If you were to see me like this with my my face on my hand it's called a face platter Okay so for anyone that can't see you you've got both of your hands out and your chin resting in the middle of it It's called a face platter right think of like my face on a platter for anyone who's listening This is a very different impression than this Like same face face platter warm almost feminine kind of girly versus this Very professional very competent Just that one difference So all these cues are changing especially if you're h for impression happening on dating profile apps on LinkedIn in your email like a little picture in email your website It is changing the way people treat you and think of you Okay So let me show you some profile photos I would love to see And you tell me what they're giving All right Okay What is this giving okay so she's leaning her head to one side with her cheek on her hand First immediately a head tilt Head head tilt is a universal sign of engagement and warmth She's giving me nurturing vibes Doesn't Don't you want to tell her all your problems like I would guess she's a therapist or a life coach She has a watch on which is a good ornament for competence So she's probably a therapist or maybe a psychoanalyst Probably has a degree She also wears glasses We like women in glasses and makeup for very competent That actually ups our competence factor By the way this is just the research not my opinion And she has a a sweater tied around her uh top and that's very conservative So I would say warm and nurturing Could be a grandmother likely in a self health profession Correct So some cues there we can learn from is we want to balance out the friendliness the the warmth the approachability with the with the take me seriously So you take her seriously because of her watch and her glasses and her lack of a smile Those are all cues of competence We like that We also like those cues of warmth Head tilt hand on face and a soft smile So in that way it's a perfect bl balance or blend What about this guy profile photo okay So we are seeing a gentleman with uh no hands So we see no hand gestures just his face He's also tilting his chin down and his forehead is forward Um you also see a genuine smile The best thing about this picture is he's doing an authentic smile because you can see those cheek muscles are activated Uh zepper upper zygomaticus Terrible at saying that but these muscles are activated So very likable Oh yeah I like that Good job Yes I love this smile Um so we love that authentic smile So he's very warm and approachable He's also making eye contact with the camera Slight head tilt I would actually say this is very warm almost too warm If he is a doctor or a professor or someone who needs to be taken seriously I don't know if I'd go to him with my problems It's a lot of warmth for that photo And by the way I want to make this as helpful for folks at home So think of your impression like a thermostat You can dial up your trust and your approachability by adding cues So if you want to add warmth or trust or liability you can add a head tilt You can show your hands Movement is also one So sometimes you'll see people who are like leaning their head over to the side or even in the process of a walk That's why all those photographers use wind Oh yeah Yeah It actually adds like this weird element of warmth if you want to dial up um competence power If you want to be taken seriously especially if you're in a career where you've been challenged or interrupted or not taken seriously or underestimated you really want to dial up competence in your profile picture Like the cover of my books I am not smiling And that is because I'm a quite a smiley person and I want people to take me seriously So I made a choice to not smile on my covers What about this chap all right This is a dating app profile photo Look I love it Okay this guy has a cat around his neck And you know what i love it Why because if you love cats you're going to love this guy If you hate cats you're going to swipe We want to make people not like us with the ornaments we choose right like I love when my husband wears a cowboy hat because certain people are going to love it Certain people aren't going to like it He's going to find his people We're in Austin Texas so it would be weird if he like wore it in London or something like that D what' you think okay so I do not like sunglasses in photos at all And the reason for this is because research shows that we can produce oxytocin which is the chemical of connection even through a lens When you can't see someone's eyes it puts a little barrier in our head of like I don't know I don't know about this person That's chemically your body being like I cannot see her eyes So I'm a hard no on sunglasses This is like she's very distant from me Even though she has a beautiful smile I can't see the upper cheek muscles and I can't see her eyes is does that apply to real life too the sunglasses point Like does it disconnect us from people you know I haven't seen research on that I've only seen research on sunglasses in photos So I'm going to say in person I think it's okay But I will say like have you ever been with someone and they like take off their glasses to see you better has that ever happened to you yes It feels good Yeah Like they can if you want to show someone I'm going to really listen to you Take off your glasses or roll up your sleeves So there's also we know this is a cue is like let's get into it I often see like leaders when they're getting into the get into it part of their speech they roll up their sleeves Another one that I like is this one rubbing your hands together Okay So this is a universal get ready cube If you are about to share something really really good to your team You want to go like this guys I got something good today You would like it You would like it if we were in a team meeting Yeah Okay Right You got because it's a universal cue of warming up So going back then to first impressions how do I make a really bad first impression a really bad first impression Yeah So we'll do the bad first then we'll do the good You said one of the the worst things one can do is to walk up on their phone on a device etc Okay So bad is taking up as little space as possible Yeah Right No space between our arms and our torso no space between our shoulders and our earlobes Um the second thing is hidden hands So hands in pockets hand to the table hands not in shot We like to see hands especially right away It makes us feel intention right we like know what's going to happen So I'm like "Hi good to see you." I put my hands a lot of my hands are in my profile pictures That's a bad one is hidden hands And the last one is avoidant gaze We really do like to make eye contact within the first few seconds of meeting someone It makes us feel like someone's avoiding that oxytocin It gives us a chemical burst of trust They've even you know had people do nose sprays full of oxytocin and it immediately makes them share more open more connect more Yeah So we want direct eye contact visible hands and a broad body What about I call the triple threat by the way The triple threat That's the triple threat What about when sat at a table like this because I I sit here for hundreds and hundreds of hours listening to people Yeah And I am I've never said this before but I'm always really quite conscious about my body language because I don't want to signal the wrong thing but because I'm thinking about so many things at once I'm like doing research while someone's talking I'm reading my notes I'm writing sometimes I'm jotting something down and I'm thinking about the next thing I'm thinking about the edit There's a lot going on in my head Um I never want them to misconstrue it as like a reflection on them Mhm So what would you re how would you recommend that I conduct myself whether it's as a podcaster or in a meeting when you're with a client or whatever to signal that I'm warm and competent and all the good stuff Okay So first easiest one is you're always angled towards me I'm so grateful that you don't have us angled at a V So many podcasts I do are like that and it is very hard to connect with someone when they're like that So you're already laying the groundwork of of of being aligned in your office right now If you work at an office move your chairs so they're not at an angle towards you that they're right at you That's already going to set you up for success because I know we're on the same page even if you're looking at something else Then you want to think about 60% eye contact It's very specific In Western cultures they find that the ideal the sweet spot for oxytocin is 60 70 to 70% Some East Asian cultures it's less eye contact So that's okay But if you can hit that 60% That's not 100% Especially when I'm making an important point Like you'll often be doing nose and you'll look up at me when I'm making an important point That's all I need to know I got this Keep going And then really powerful people make eye contact at the end of their point So you could be talking like this explaining this remembering something but let me tell you at the very end of my point that's when it matters Interesting And I think you actually do that pretty naturally I don't know if you realize you're doing it but if you're in a meeting or pres presenting or you're an interviewer that's actually what matters more is that at the end of your sentence you're sealing it with that eye contact Yeah Cuz I look I'm doing it now I look away because I I'm struggling with my ideas trying to articulate them and then once I've got it I come back to you and make the point like that Yes And that actually is good It shows me that you're processing We know as humans that I cannot do complex math problems while making eye contact Yeah We can't do it And so actually it makes you look very thoughtful and pensive for the 40% you're not looking at me when you're gathering that actually leaders do that because they're showing I'm authentically coming up with the answer It would be very weird if you were delivering 100% with 100% eye contact because I would feel like it was scripted Yeah That's one of the reasons why I think um presenters make this problem and I whenever I watch like Shark Tank or Dragon's Den a big mistake they make is they're so rehearsed they don't break eye contact and it gives you sort of a robotic feeling So if you're practicing a presentation you actually want to have a little bit of like adlib in there You want to be processing around because it shows you're authentically grabbing the information and that shows competence right highly competent people they don't need a script because they know their stuff so well that they can just grab it out for you They can think on the spot Low competent people are memorized That is why like the TED talks that we like the best the pictures we like the best they're basically having a really smart conversation with you and you like it So I like that you're gathering away from me that you're thinking of a question The worst interviews I have are where someone is just beating me with questions and not thinking about it you know Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Okay So gestures eye contact um it's okay to make only 60% eye contact That's the triple threat The other thing in a first impression that I really like is breaking the script right i think in a first impression it's okay to be like "Hey good morning." But when we do the how are you good How are you good How are you good How are you and you get like that horrible like loop I'm going to challenge everyone to try to break the script with how are you so when someone asks how are you don't say good Don't say busy but good Try to answer with like a little bit of humor Okay if you can Now I'm not funny So we should take this advice with a grain of salt You are funny but I'm not that funny But there's a couple things you can do So one is you could answer with a number So like you laughed I didn't even do it yet You already laughed right seven Most people say seven I was going to say seven Oh really right So if you're like someone's like "How are you?" And you're like "Seven on the 10 scale right?" Like it just it breaks the script a little bit I also love when you say um what you're wrestling with So I might be like "Just been fighting my inbox all day but a good 10 out of 10." Like sometimes good to give like a little bit of context of like what you've been dealing with for the day Or if you know that you look a mess you can be like "Better on the inside than the outside." Better on the inside than the outside Okay Right Like something that just gets people thinking a little bit It kind of breaks the script And it makes for a very nice first impression So first impressions make sure the conversation doesn't hit a dead end essentially And and and break the script Yeah Break the script Break the script So like I'd rather you take a little bit of a risk and have some conversational courage to not do the script right because then you're going to make a way better first impression And that also means not asking how are you but instead being like what's good so like when I start a conversation like anytime I try never to ask how are you i try to say what's good anything good today it's a very subtle subtle change on that and it it makes people think for a second in a good way They're like oh yeah what's good and it totally changes the nature of the conversation I've I do this here sometimes So when a guest comes in the question that I always ask pretty much everyone that sits down is like "What's front of mind for you at the moment?" Is that a good one i like that one a lot I would prefer Okay What have you been looking forward to are you looking forward to anything in your life because is that because it's positive yeah It's juicing excitement So like our I think our job if you want to really be a master communicator is you are gifting good chemicals You know that phrase like leave people better than you found them Yeah I take that quite literally I think master communicators are literally gifting beautiful chemicals to the other person They're making people feel super full of dopamine Dopamine is like very simplified excitement motivation energy They're gifting testosterone You feel capable You feel smart Wow you're good at what you do right and you leave feeling like like I'm so good This is for men and women You're gifting serotonin calm belonging You got this You can be yourself with me I give you permission to be yourself I love you for who you are Like I think one of the reasons why people often verbal vomit on me Like they tell me everything about their lives I think it's because I'm I'm like trying to gift them serotonin I want them to feel that like they can be absolutely themselves and I accept them for exactly who they are So serotonin dopamine and testosterone If we can gift those out I call it like the chemical cocktail Like that's the cocktail I want to give to everyone in my conversation And that's what master communicators are doing And how would I give you all those things okay So you break the script by just waking me up right like this is going to be different Then you ask "What have you been looking forward to?" Like if you ask me what's been front of mind I'm going to probably give you a negative answer to be quite honest with you Have you do you usually get negative answers to that question negative or neutral or it's typically something workrelated So they'll say "My book tour I'm trying to get this published." Blah blah blah Yeah And you're bored aren't you uh it's somewhat interesting to me cuz I write it down and then I'll talk to them about it But I mean if it was a social conversation it wouldn't be interesting Yeah And I would argue like you would be more engaged if you got an exciting answer even in this setting So you're bored they're bored So one if you're like looking forward to anything got any fun plans coming up those are all like gifting little bits of dopamine Then capitalizing on any moment that I call it a meto moment I have this theory It's called thread theory And it's this idea that in conversation we are throwing threads at each other So like if we have a shared thing I have thrown a thread you get it and you pull it And it's like you're trying to get even more out of me The more threads there are between you and me the more we like each other and the closer we get Me too moments create serotonin When I say I like X and you're like what i like X too We're like like chemically And that makes me feel serotonin It makes me feel calm belonging I can be myself So anytime in a conversation that someone says anything that you agree with or you feel like I have that too you want to capitalize and be like thread me too How do you stop it feeling like you're making it about yourself though because if you said to me you've got a cyber truck outside If if if you walked in and said "Oh I've got a just bought a cyber truck." And I go "I've just bought a cybert truck." Okay So there's a big difference between how you said it and how I said it Okay So I say "I just got a cybert truck." "Oh yeah join the club." That's what you want me to say yeah I wouldn't say it like that though There is a difference here because I'm British and British people are very like we're very like you know what I mean you're so demure Is that what it is we're just very Oh yeah join the club Could you imagine i would have liked it You would freak out that you're saying that you would like it because it's so weird Not because I like weird people Is there anything else in the first impressions bucket before we move on to second impressions and what I mean by that is really like how do I then cement and invest in that relationship so I can keep it Mhm Okay So if you've made a good first impression you are set up for success It's great If you're making a second impression because you weren't sure how the last one went right or you want to kind of build on it further Your best bet is to show them how much they were on your mind Everyone's number one worry in this world is did I leave an impression am I memorable that's what we want to know So the very first thing you want to assure them is h I loved our last meeting I've been looking so forward to this lunch Right so can you assure them that you're so happy to see them talk to them hear from them say anything on the phone oh my gosh I'm so glad you called Like that warmth of you were right to call you were right to text you were right to show up right like if someone texts me I of course like not if I'm texting one all day long but if someone texts me and I'm like "Oh my gosh I'm so glad you texted." I will literally say that I was just thinking of you right like "Oh I'm so glad you reached out I always love our conversations Like that immediate you're good here is serotonin That that's that belonging feeling of like you're already safe You're letting someone be themselves right off the bat What about online first impressions is there anything that I need to think about if I'm on because so much of our lives runs on Zoom or Google Hangouts now So yes Okay So first can we talk about just um like dating apps first of all okay So they've actually done research on this You are better off opening with a unique word or phrase than just hi hello how are you so like howdy if you're in Texas even if you're not in Texas howdy aloha what's good anything that's not that hi or hello is a little bit different It's going to make you stand out So if you can Hey Nope You're defeating the spirit of the study here Okay Okay So like not a hey not a hi not a what's up not a how are you Okay But like can you have like a like like a signature phrase or like uh bingo i would take it You would take it Bingo I'm in your inbox They they study this and they found that we're there's so much noise There's so much noise that if you can be the red apple So this is a story when I was I used to be a camp counselor when I was younger That's how I made money And I noticed this phenomenon during break where I would bring always a basket of fruit for break And usually it was all red apples or all green apples And I noticed if I had a basket of green apples and one red apple every single camper had to have that red apple But I would ask them "Do you like the red apple better?" And they'd be like "No I just want that one cuz it's the only one." And I've never forgotten that in that I think that really special people master communicators are the red apple They're not oranges They're still fitting in with everyone but they're just like a little bit different And that's I think how it should be both in business and also in romance is can you be a red apple well you're still the same You're not like wacko crazy but you're like a little different than everyone else So like a bingo or a howdy or an aloha or a shalom or whatever it is I think that it makes you stand out just enough where you have that kind of peak effect The peak effect is like you piqu someone's curiosity a little bit and that that really works That's why marketing campaigns that are a little different they always work better And what about then on Zoom and other sort of business professional environments okay so in Zoom in professional environments please turn your camera on Yeah please turn your camera on This sounds obvious but more and more people are turning their camera off especially if you have backto-back meetings but if you can have your camera on just for the first few seconds it is a gamecher for people's perception of you So one is make sure that you are not accidentally negative Here's how this happens Can you see me can you hear me oh Oh hi A lot of Zoom impressions happen where someone is caught off guard or they're in the middle of like can you see me can you hear me and they're fixing themselves and then they make a first impression No your first impression already happened It happened the moment your camera turned on Remember your first impression on video happens the moment someone first sees you not when you start talking So your first impression is usually "Hey morning." So you raised your hand there I always I always give a wave or a hi I make sure my camera is at least 3 ft away from my nose Like I literally have measuring tape to make sure I'm not too close I make sure that my body is angled towards the camera And then usually I have a question ready And here's why In person it's so much easier to make conversation especially around context or like oh you know how was it getting here i loved your cybert truck Very hard on Zoom And so what happens is you get on you go hi Hi whether good where you are It's like it's so awkward Be ready Be ready with an anecdote or a question I like an anecdote So if you've done anything good interesting seen anything good or interesting I want you to be ready to share it It sounds like this Hey morning Oh my gosh I just discovered the best breakfast taco in Austin Best breakfast taco in Austin Have you ever had a breakfast taco whatever But like I was ready to go with that anecdote I think that that's how we should pre-start all of our video calls is like some small anecdote or story and that also helps in conversation like I believe everyone should have a story toolbox So in conversation there are certain topics that will always come up Weather traffic and where you're from So here's my challenge This is what master communicators do Whenever those three topics come up I want you to have one story about each of them It could be a trivia It could be a story It could be a fact that you're ready to go to shift the conversation away from boring weather to something really interesting When someone asks "Where are you from?" you should say "Oh I'm from Los Angeles Interesting fact interesting story." That little interesting story Like someone the other day said to me "Oh I'm from this place in maybe Liverpool." Liverpool And he said "Oh it's where Banksiey's from." And I was like "Oh." And we had a whole conversation about Banksy And I was like "That was it." He said where he was from but instead of being Liverpool I'd be like "Cool Never been there." He was like "Liverpool it's supposedly where Bangsy from?" I was like "Really but don't we do we even know who Banksy is?" And he's like "Well we don't know but he could have been in my high school." We had a whole fun conversation about Banksy And I asked him afterwards I was like "Do you always share that comment?" He's like "Yeah because it creates the most interesting conversation." So when you say where you're from have an interesting fact or interesting story Um I read a book about traffic literally to have interesting stories about traffic Like for example in Los Angeles everyone says the 101 the five the 10 That's the only place in the world where we say that So sometimes I'll even like someone will be like "Oh traffic." And I'll be like "Oh so are you athe person do you say 'the' and we get in a whole conversation about." So like I have little things that create a little bit of juice and I'm always rotating them out So in your phone create a note called story toolbox and have the topics that typically come up in your conversation and start saving little stories for them It is the same stuff It's like 80 90% of the time it's the same stuff It's the same questions How are you where are you how's the weather traffic I'm constantly adding to that story toolbox and I'm rotating out my facts and trivia cuz I get bored What if you like stumble across the same person twice and you don't realize you've hit them with the same story because if you if we do I don't talk to the same people again Just if we did a couple of Zoom calls and you kept coming on going "Are you a that person?" Or I'd go "Wait a minute." Like no If we were doing regular Zoom calls you would know that I'm probably going to ask you what's good and you'd probably be pre-thinking about what's good in your life Like I have a friend who always asks "What are you learning?" And whenever I go hang out with him I make sure I'm learning something Like it actually preps me in a good way So you would know me for certain questions And that would I think my my experience is when you're known for asking better questions people actually come into the conversation more excited with better expectations to interact with you So like be known for it Like fine be known for the traffic trivia Or like worse comes to worse Someone says "Oh yeah the the thing We talked about that last time." And I'll be like "Oh my gosh yes." And then I forgot you're from Ohio Great I remember you How important is the background on your Zoom videos pretty important I also um have a thing against like blurred out fake backgrounds I don't like when people use a fake background I think there was actually some Harvard business research on this but it was during uh COVID so it kind of changes you know the the research But as a human we get very distracted by fake backgrounds So please think twice about blurring out your background or putting a fake background around you like you know one of those backdrops The the the eye it's like a green screen You know when you see on a green screen your eye is like something is not right people will perceive you as more inauthentic I would much rather you have conversation cues behind you right like you have the most wonderful bookshelf of cues and captivate up there right like my books which I love Um and you rotate those books out So as I'm talking if I wanted to make conversation with you I could be like "Oh my gosh yes Peter Aia's book outlive so good Did you like it what was your biggest takeaway from that?" Like it gives me gifts of conversation I also noticed like one time I was looking at Kevin Hart He was on a Zoom call and his background was all of his favorite comedians behind him and it was like a great conversation starter and he even had um uh one of the comedians behind him was like holding up his hand like this like literally in a permanent hello and I was like oh my gosh like Kevin Hart doesn't even realize he's doing the best non-verbal cue there is which is palms like we love a palm and what about looking at the camera versus looking at the face of the person so I try to make them as close as possible so like just physically speaking if you can try to make your camera and your and the person as close as possible it's going to help you be more authentic right so like my my screen is not over here I see some people will have the mistake of they're like you know they're off to the side as and like kind of looking over their shoulder at the camera Please don't do that So I have mine even like up propped up So like your face would be very close to the top of the camera If you can get 50% eye contact with them and 50% eye contact with the camera I'd be very happy Research does show that we can get oxytocin through a screen Really yeah Yeah even though it's not real our brain is still sort of oh yeah they're they're looking at me they're talking to me they're not hiding anything So 50/50 if you could do it Now we were talking a second ago about first impressions um then second impressions but also dating profile photos yesterday or the day before My team here took you to a bar in Austin Texas and you met two different couples that were going on a first date and your job was to coach them both so they had success on that date And on that first date one member of the couple had an earpiece in so you could speak to them directly and give them advice on what they should do We're going to play some videos for anyone that's um able to watch but you give me the context and what what happened and what you observed I was shocked by these dates I was shocked because every single person except one hid their true feelings and that did not serve them So we had the very first date and they were very well matched by the way Like I liked both of them What was shocking about this date though is the female Ashley I could not tell if she liked him I literally had no idea And I was in her ear So I was whispering in her ear things to say and to ask I was giving her all the warmth cuz she looked very cold You would never have known she was into this guy You would not have known She said "Oh yeah I'm really physically attracted to him." Like what you didn't act attracted at all And her questions were all very factbased What I wanted her to do is bring in more warmth so we can watch it if you want Let's watch See are you ready to meet your lady are you ready Okay So what is going to be your opening line this is the We got to prepare a conversation starters because we can't do a how are you a how are you we can't do that What if I started with a who are you okay that breaks the scripts I like it That I mean yeah that's like what the Can I give you another one though can you consider uh what's been good and remember this could also the same tip if you were to see someone in a grocery store someone in the park It's like what's the opener when you it's cold right so like I I don't like a how are you i don't like a what's up dog Yeah Weather's great right no No No I know No no So like like what's what's been good or like what feels good to you if you see something you like about her feel free to authentically compliment If Oh god Right If you're like "Oh my gosh you look beautiful." You know like that's a good one So I think you can ask like what what's the goal you're working on like cash still a little good Because then they'll say I mean know what do you think you're going to be in Austin forever that's a very casual way of being like what's your five-year plan my goal is a little bit of depth I know I know you can make friends with anyone but I want you to see if there's like an actual connection there Okay Okay And then to see if it's if you want a connection with her I want you to ask her out at the end of the date Yeah So what did you observe there when you watch it back okay So do you see he got nervous yeah his body langu Oh because I knew it's easy for him to make friends with anyone And very likable men sometimes have a have really a hard time getting serious relationships because they're so likable They can make friends with everyone They get confused about where the where the depth is Is that a bit of a defense mechanism as well it's a defense mechanism It's also what he's good at We want to do what we're good at which is you know making a chitchat And a lot of people do this on dates They'll be like "Where are you from in Austin?" No that's the wrong question What you ask is "What are your favorite secret spots in Austin what do you love about Austin what are the most underrated restaurants in Austin?" That is breaking the script And that happened to them on the stage There was a good five or 10 minutes of boring fluff because they were on that And I was like "Get to the deeper questions." So when you're asking these questions to prepare ahead of time what's the most underrated thing what's your favorite thing that would have been better but he got very nervous when I started I challenged him on depth So the next video is them meeting M feel free to pause it if there's anything pertinent or anything interesting you want to show me What's your favorite spot to go to around here then um to be honest I don't go out very much Okay nice What do you do i Okay she If someone said that to me I'd assume they weren't interested in me Exactly right Okay so this is called dreamkilling in conversation When someone asks you a question and you shut it down by saying "I don't do that I don't like that I don't want that with nothing else left Like she just stopped I don't to be honest I don't really go out that much And he said to me afterwards that's the thing I'm most nervous about is that she sort of shut that down So when you don't like something don't dreamkill the conversation A better way to answer that would be you know what I do love to be in my jam jams at home on the couch watching Netflix but for the right occasion I can get out and party sometimes Mhm That would have been a better way to answer that question because it's a little bit playful and it's not totally dreamkilling his charisma And watch this She's going to act like she's not interested at all but she's actually very attracted to him She said that to me Work a lot Okay Tell him something you love Tell him something you love What do I love um what do I what do I love what I love to do uh work out be outside Um be active Yeah these are waters Okay Yeah I was like I don't know what this is you would you know if you would like one Always always do a cheers Cheers Stephen Cheers Cheers Cheers What does that do okay Cheers Mhm It immediately warmed her up She was very very stiff in this And I was like I said to her in her ear by the way he did not know Kendrick poor Kendrick he still doesn't know that I was He We never told him I never told him Okay Surprise Um he didn't know that I was in her ear whispering She was so stiff I said "Tell him what you love." because I was trying to get her to show any kind of warmth or excitement at all because she was so stiff and then she still she was like "What do I love i work out." I just can't believe that she actually liked him Yes Because everything about her is giving I can't wait to leave This is why we're having a baby crisis Is because we're afraid to show that we like someone She was physically attracted to him and into him You would never know it I was the one saying "Cheers him Say what you love ask him about his family And so I think that this is a crisis because we think we're being obvious but we are not being obvious Yeah I don't know I know I was just sitting here like this is a Tuesday which is crazy How long have you been in Austin two years Okay What no That's great right like like that's why that didn't work You just heard it That's why I don't want you to do on a date It's a conversational dead end No numbers questions Unless you are absolutely desperate for conversation you're willing to ask a follow-up But it was like "How about you?" Horrible How long you been in Austin she went "Four years." And then there was a gap She had no intent at all of asking a follow-up question Right No No intent at all asking a follow-up question And he didn't know what to do with it It's funny cuz when I watched this I think he really likes her because he's leading the conversation and she's just hitting the ball back That's right But actually she was very into it She just didn't know how to hit the ball back Right So if you're going to be in conversation you want to be a master communicator By the way there are drivers and passengers in conversation This is what I'm researching right now You actually don't want all drivers right like you don't want two people asking all the questions but you have to be a good passenger But she should have said two years but actually I feel like Austin has changed so much in the last two years Have you noticed that have you been here for a long time like she should have added one more thing to not dream kill Uh like three years Okay Yeah I'm from Ohio Okay Like the Akran area Okay So ask him what do you love about Ohio do you love Do you miss Ohio no No not really I mean I'll go back My whole family's there right can I ask how old you are uh guess Oh okay Guess 30 Um 30 Yeah Why did you say guess 30 okay So I was giving her a micro win So she remember we're trying to gift dopamine serotonin and testosterone Very simplified It was not going great right i was watching and this is like oh my god we're talking about Acron Ohio we're in trouble now right so he tried with her So I knew if she guessed right it would like make her feel good And I needed her to feel good So she would start driving She would start driving the conversation So that's why I made I told I knew his age I'll be 31 in like a week But okay I know you're not supposed to Oh wait Your birth So you're an Aries I'm an Aries too Me too Moment They set this up on purpose They literally did Yeah Wait so what day is your birthday april 1st Okay Oh I'm March 29th What are you Are you serious I think that's my mother's birthday What's her body language giving here very closed Yeah And in I never done this before I wanted to say to her "Open up Laugh more Touch your lips Touch your hair." There's a lot of things that women can do to show I am feeling physically attracted to you But I was like like I wasn't sure she was physically attracted So here I am thinking is she physically attracted if she wanted to show him I'm into you she could have touched her hair She could have touched her lips She could have touched the side of her face All of those are gestures of like self-touch that show interest but she didn't show any of that She also was see how tight see how little space she's taking up Defeated body language let's say So very very closed off We are going to be in trouble if we can't show that we like someone I also want you to notice as soon as they had the me too moment the thread theory they both warmed up Yeah they did Yeah Like once we get a me too moment it's like so much faster to laugh more She actually like literally physically relaxed cuz we I love dancing and they like always have a DJ It's more like clubby You love dancing Say I love dancing I love dancing Yeah I love throwing ass That's what I She was going to let that go but I was trying to give her a thread I love dancing And also I'm trying to get her to say love So a lot of the questions I like what do you love about Ohio do you love dancing like when you use more words like that you're actually queuing for that I think we talked about last time that when you use like when they had people split up into Wall Street and community people who were told they were playing the community game actually acted in a more communal way When you use words like love and excitement and good and looking forward you actually create those feelings So on a date you want to be using the words that you're trying to create especially because she actually felt something She liked him a lot But even beyond a date right in a professional context Yes So that then it would be like uh let's have some wins like what's good right you're trying to have efficiency and productivity and trust and collaboration If you want to have a collaborative meeting literally in your calendar call it collaboration meeting If you want to say hi team every time you say team you're priming for team Mhm Right So those words really matter I'm I'm kind of like like a early bed kind of person Yeah No I love that I I'm not I like I could like every night or just like the weekends I'm extremely extroverted so it's like okay absolutely let's go And then it's like I'm so tired Yeah Um I'm extroverted and introverted Like once I'm out like I'm not I'm probably not going home Yeah But then it's like I also love my like alone time I'm learning Okay So do you hear she's using vocal fry when you use closed body language it affects your voice So I vocal fry is when you're like I love going out and I kind of love Right So she's starting to go into a little bit of vocal fry here which is not attractive We do not like vocal fry Why is she doing that i think she's doing it because she's so closed It's very hard to get good vocal power when you're that closed right so you can hear it here Wake up and it's next week Yeah Yes Who did that but then it's like I also love my like alone kind I'm learning to love it more Yeah We could still go get a drink if you wanted if you're not busy Or go another day after your birthday Okay If you're interested we can do that after my birthday Yeah Can I ask you a question on that he seemed to bottle it there He He said "We can go get a drink if you want to If you're interested or we can go but I I it's cuz she didn't immediately be like "Yeah no." I got a little angry after this date Uh basically tell me you'd love to go out Just like No I would love to go out when I get back So Yeah Let's make it happen That's in about 45 days cuz you're going to Europe Yeah for 30 days Maybe something sooner Are you leaving uh like right on your birthday no I'm leaving on the 21st but that's in 10 days And I haven't finished booking the whole entire trip Yeah I know how to run those numbers Yeah she rejected him I was real mad after the date because I asked her "Are you attracted to him?" "Yes." "Did you like him?" "Yes." Did you have fun yes Would you like to go out with him again i'm real busy I was like girl we handed this guy to you on a silver platter He's fun You're attracted to him and you're too busy Busyiness is not a mark of success Busyiness is going to prevent you from finding your person And this is a problem we have We're so busy with our self-care rituals and our workouts and our work that we are missing opportunities for connection And connection is the thing that's going to make us healthy happy and live a long time We have to stop saying we're too busy to connect with good people Was she actually too busy like or is she scared or something cuz I just don't understand that I literally think she thought she was too busy And I was like get your priorities straight And so this is not even if you're looking for your person I also see this with friendships Friends where we we put our friendships last But actually if we were having a hard moment or a health crisis who do you want your support system and your friends We have to start prioritizing the connections in our life especially with good people And so I it made me angry because I thought this could be a great person for you Do you know what's really wild is had they met in a village 100 years ago they'd been married married babies married But I guarantee if you hadn't intervened in this situation and this wasn't if you weren't sort of coercing them to like to hang around with each other they'd never see each other again Yeah And I said to after after the mics were off I was like "Go get him girl Go get him." And they did And they sat in the bar and they chatted for the entire hour and they walked out together Yeah They left together By the way let's get some DAO babies Let's get some babies I will be an officient at the wedding We can do it together I imagine Imagine if they But it's so I've been thinking about this a lot lately We were talking about it as a team I was saying one of the issues I think people have these days is we just have too many options too many choices Yeah So jam choices Do you know the jamster though yeah Yeah You have two you have you know 20 jams on a table Yeah People will pick none because there's too many When there's only three people buy more Yeah Very simple And this is going on in dating at the moment Do you know what it was a friend of mine um we were having a debate actually in the room over there a couple of days ago And they were saying to me I just need to meet more guys And I'm sat there thinking your actual job is networking Like you get paid to meet people You know more people than anyone I know I could say right now I could say to this person I need a chiropractor in Las Vegas and this person would should go I know the guy Oh wow So I was saying like the issue might be that you know you have too many options Too much jam Too much jam Okay So too many choices is one But I also think like we are so accidentally we become so obsessed with our morning routine our evening routine our rituals our self-care Selfcare wasn't even a thing that we talked about when I was on social media 10 years ago So what happens is I see rigidity There's a new rigidity happening for both men and women but a lot of women too where oh I can't go on that date because I have to do my morning routine I can't do that thing because I have to get my workout in And I think that we are putting our connections in last place When actually if we want to know what's really good for our health and our longevity it's our relationships We get the most of the good chemicals of the good h happy laughs and the endorphins when with other people and we keep putting it last You must meet people though that they've been on like a 100 dates and they they tell you that they just can't find the person and you go 100 dates like 100 years ago you wouldn't even know 100 people Yeah And you'd be happily married Yes Yes I also think our checklists are getting in the way Checklist So many single people I know they'll tell me they have a list They have a list of things that they really want I when I met my husband I did not have a list but there was just a connection there And even though we're very different on paper it just worked And so I think that when people have a checklist it actually blinds them to seeing a connection right in front of their face Yeah And she said to me I don't know if this is on camera or not so hopefully it's okay if I share it but she's like you know I just I don't know if he's as career oriented as I was Like that's really important to me And I knew that was on her list On her list on her internal list career is right up top Now they didn't even talk about career So I said "Well do you did you even know what he does?" Well no So she was judging him based on his personality That's it And it didn't check the list And so what can happen on these dates is they become very conversationally transactional What do you do check Where are you from don't know Check So you're trying to get You want kids mhm So this these checklists I think are creating a lot of rigidity and then you add in the busyiness the busyiness trap which is I'm so successful I'm so busy busy is not a mark of success Do you think there's also an element that we've got more and more ambivalent with if we the more and more we date the more it becomes transactional the more we show up with without passion or interest or curiosity I I don't know if that's ambivalence I think that is um numbness Like people have gotten really attractive I don't know if you've noticed this Yeah they have My goodness people are so pretty Like I'm on Instagram and I'm like "How does everyone look so good?" Like I I didn't really know anyone with an eight pack when I went to school Like did you like No No Cuz that wasn't really a thing I'm like old right like I No no one had that There was no social media So like people had like you know normal looks Now people are extremely attractive And so I think that the bar has gone up so that we're all like numb to how beautiful people are how funny people are how kind people are because we've been on a thousand dates or the funniest best thing they ever did is on their Instagram and we saw it So anything else is like h seen it like nothing is impressive anymore Like I there's two challenges I recommend for people who are in like kind of a funk Like if you're in like a you're burnt out or you're feeling lonely or you're like things are not working there's two challenges you could consider The first one is really hard and it's the no mirror challenge It's you go 30 days without looking in a mirror Something really crazy happens when you cannot see yourself and see how good you look and see what you look like And it's especially powerful for women I did it for 30 days Um and I went you have to do all your normal things You have to go to meetings You have to go out but without looking in a mirror which means you usually you don't wear makeup you know you don't do your hair you kind of just go out as you are First you realize that people still like you even if you don't look perfect So no mirror challenge can give you a lot of confidence and also can show you where your true relationships your true friends are The second challenge is a social media or an online blackout challenge which is if you don't have any dopamine from your phone you have to go get dopamine oxytocin from inerson relationships So if you have a blackout where you cannot go on any social media or have any kind of interactions on your phone and you have to go out in person you actually do Like I remember when I used to travel for work and I'd get to a city and there was nothing to do Like there was no phone in my hotel I did not have an iPad You could read a book or you could try to go out And that's what I would do I would like get to a city and I'd be like "Well I have nothing to do in the hotel room." There was literally nothing to do I had my book or I could go to the hotel bar or I could go walk around the city And I met more people in that time of my life than I do now even though I'm connected to more people than ever I was just thinking then about something someone said to me a couple of days ago which links to what you're saying Someone said to me that much of the cause of the insult culture is these young men spend lots of time playing video games and the video games gives them the sense of accomplishment the sense of building It also gives them the like dopamine hit when you like win a sword or some coins or something And so I was just also thinking about that in the context of being like a workaholic Like if I'm working all day every day on a screen and I'm constant which is what I do when it comes to like going out and meeting people and networking for me it's like hell And I'm wondering if there's a link there I'm like maybe if I wasn't on the screen all for like 12 hours a day I'd have more dopamine left over to go speak to somebody Dopamine And also the energy flip wouldn't be so massive The energy that you're using on your computer is very much output right like you're you're putting your energy into your machine to create content of some kind When you go out it's a feedback It's back and forth Yeah Go having your brain switch from one to the next is very jarring And if you already get dopamine from your screen why what's the motivation for going out in person there's only downside My computer has never energized me but these conversations always do Mhm Yeah Why would you go out you're already having the best conversations you can do and you're in control And look I don't know Just saying I think you like control Do you think I like control in what context do you think I like control in the reason I I bring up the control thing is if you are on social media you are in complete control You decide how often you scroll You decide where you click You decide when you're done with someone you just exit their video Well you know in conversation if I don't like your answer I can't go off I can't turn your volume down I can't double click on your like I actually have to sit and listen to you And I think that you know if you're in control of your conversations and even like at this table you are in control Like I'm talking a lot but like you could interrupt me anytime you want and I will answer whatever question you ask me And so I wonder don't be mad at me If in like real conversation like I could ask you anything that I want Like right now I have a thousand questions for you but I'm trying to not ask them Ask me the questions Well I asked you the one about control but you didn't really answer You attached it back to me You don't think you're a control freak probably Okay thank you Yeah probably It's all context dependent because when you said control freak I was like well I don't have any control in that part of my life That's like a democracy But typically in in business I think that I'm a control freak Yeah If you ask my team they'd say "Yeah he's a control freak." So I would control freak Am I he's laughing He was already laughing about it Thank you Jack You're welcome So I'm not a control freak This is this is No I am Yeah So I think look I don't know But my guess would be why you don't want to go you know out with people is because you have to give up control and you you you have to be in a conversation where you might be asked something that might be boring or you don't like it And like why why i do struggle I really struggle with like um going to like networking events and stuff I really struggle with that stuff I don't love a networking event but I've found that if I have a very specific goal it's better So like for example if I like I'm researching my next book I'm looking for conversational case studies So if I am going to the event and I'm like okay tonight I'm going to try a new question and see how it goes You know I'm then I'm like okay I have a purpose Or if I'm like I'm going to practice some new jokes or if I'm like I'm looking from a a new you know business inspiration like that helps me So I think no one really likes networking events but if you have a goal it makes it a little bit better Just for a second I want to talk about a company I've invested in and who sponsors this podcast called Zoe Like me many of you are big on tracking your fitness and your sleep But how many of you understand how your body handles food metabolic fitness is all about understanding your metabolism's response to food And we all react differently So Zoe created a test to help you understand how your body responds And it starts with their famous test cookies which are identical test meals with the same sugar fat and calorie content of the average meal and therefore acts as a metabolic challenge You also wear a continuous glucose monitor that tests your blood sugar levels I've done this test and it left me wondering how my metabolic fitness compared to others like me and my results revealed everything So if you'd like to learn about your body's response to food head over to zoey.com to order your test kit now And if you want a discount use code steen10 at checkout for 10% off your membership As a Zoey member you'll get an athome test kit and personalized nutrition program to help you make smarter food choices that support your health That's zoe.com with code steen10 We're talking about business there If I want to communicate more effectively as a leader in business are there any ways that I can become a little bit more I guess there's different types of leaders that struggle with different things but how do great leaders communicate what do they do well oh this is my favorite topic As a leader especially if you're trying to get meet people and new people especially your what do you do needs to be I am a who helps A lot of leaders struggle with building the right connections and so they'll be very either like intellectual with their answer So like or very vague So like I've heard business leaders say "Oh you know um I run a tech company." That that is a dream killer for a conversation People don't know what to do with that So what you're better off saying is "I have a tech company and we help aspiring cooks." So this kind of actually pulls us to another conversation you had in our fake date scenario Yeah If you click on the first link there with the with the gentleman whose name is Tim Tim Oh yeah Tim I found it really fascinating watching you help Tim introduce his profession I love Tim So Tim is my person Okay Tim is my person Like he he Let me tell you about Tim So Tim is a code monkey/software engineer which we'll watch that video in a second He is highly technical He's very kind He loves what he does And on the date he was actually the only person of the four speed daters who showed warmth the entire time And I didn't know I even said to Jack I was like "I think he's into her." And I asked him afterwards I said "Are you into her?" And he said "No." And I was very impressed with him because he still showed warmth congeniality and kindness even though he wasn't physically into her And I was like "This is magic." I also think that Tim came across as a little bit nervous and a little bit awkward and I was like "Oo Tim if we could just dial up your confidence and add that to your warmth you are going to find your person." And so I love Tim We can watch his interaction The first clip of Tim there I thought was fascinating That one there Okay You're going to have a great date First I can I help you out with some some advice Okay So ignore the cameras completely Okay Um you're making great eye contact which I love Um she's probably going to ask you "What do you do?" Okay What is your answer to that question i am a code monkey or a software engineer Okay cool So anytime I meet a software engineer it's a good answer but it's a conversational dead end Yeah Because unless I'm a software engineer I don't know what to say So I'm like so what I want you to do is actually create a hook So you're going to say um so what kind of coding do you do uh I do a lot of backend stuff That's probably too much Nope Don't even know what that is You have to think of a hook to give me so that you don't have this What do you do software engineer What do you do teacher cuz we have to have a We can't You can't say I'm a software engineer Do you like art we can't do that right how long have you been doing it how about that i've been doing it for five to six years and been loving my team so far So Oh do you lead a team uh I hope to one day but not right now But you love your team Okay So I think that that could be your hook So I think you could say like I'm a code monkey aka software engineer Um the best part of my job is playing with code all day but also like hanging out with my team Yes Then you're giving me a lot of hooks that I can then say next Any body language questions for me Your body language looks great You're making eye contact I love your visible hands You already watched my Stephen interview Oh sometimes Okay Okay Perfect So I think it's great Mutual laughing is really good too So like that's great If you're ever nervous just just laugh Okay It's gonna go really well Okay You got this Okay So this is exactly what happens with highly competent folks is they have an answer to the question that's just the answer That's not how good conversation works Master communicators make it very easy for people to ask a follow-up question or to get hooked in So whatever your answer is as a leader You want to give people enough hook to be able to be like "Oh I want to know more about that." Software engineer didn't do that for Tim Now her response to this question is terrible Terrible Did you see what happened in the date no Oh my goodness So uh what do you do cheers Cheers to you as well Um I am an AI consultant and I make tech content Oh okay Yes In the tech space In the tech space Yes Awesome What about you i am a code monkey or code monkey Oh no No Software engineer No I love my job Tell them something good Okay Yeah we love code monkeys Yeah No Uh I used to be a code monkey No way Yeah You used to um for like six years seven maybe Yeah Did you like it um I did but I Okay I thought I liked it and then I realized I didn't No way Yeah It was like one of those things where after it's over you're like "Wait a second I wasn't that happy." Do you I have to say I don't think he should call himself a code monkey Yeah Yeah it's a bit it's demeaning Yeah And also people people don't know what it is really Like I didn't even really know what it was I was like what but it sounds kind of you her reaction was telling She went oh no I know And so so so she says oh no So first of all I said to her afterwards why did you do that if you disagree with someone you can disagree with them but then give them something else So she was basically like oh no And then he's like yeah I love what I do Yeah But I think he has responsibility there because he shouldn't describe himself as a code a monkey anything Yeah The minute you you sound like you are a like a involuntary like slave to something against your will Totally If I said I was a podcast monkey you wouldn't think you wouldn't think "Oh amazing I'm so happy for you." Would you no I'd be like weird Exactly It's the word monkey that they're adding makes it seem painful I I think you're right He He came up with a better answer And this is like this is the takeaway for leaders is what question are you asked all the time i know people in business are asked the same questions all the time either networking or in their business pitches I always think this when I watch Dragons Den or Shark Tank is like you were you knew this question was coming You want to have a really really good answer And so making sure that you're ready for the answer and the more stories you can use the better right like that's why I'm like I want you to start that note in your phone of all the stories of all the different topics that come up is it's so important to have good answers with those questions that you know are coming your way What's a great answer then give me an example of a great answer So if I'm the CEO of a media company what's a great answer if someone says "What do you do?" Yeah I'm the CEO of a media company So you want to start with clarity So what is it exactly you do i I don't like people who have like these crazy weird metaphor metaphors for like Right Right So tell them what you I'm a CEO of a media company and uh you know we work with amazing clients like so tell me who's the best client you worked for the most interesting client you worked for what's the most interesting project you worked for like tell me that story or tell me how you moonlight so if your job is boring be like oh you know I'm a CEO of a media company but um I garden on my free time like like give me the the side hustle so I can say oh what kind of media or tell me about the gardening so give an interesting story about who it is you work for or give me a side hustle that's really interesting or a passion And I heard you say that using the word because as a leader is important to getting people to come with you Humans need reasons When there is a reason even if it's a silly reason it helps us feel more motivated So it's a very very silly study that was done that looked at this where they had people go up to a copy machine in a library and ask "Can I make copies?" Now everyone who's in the line for the copy machine has to make copies Mhm They found that people who went up to the line to to cut the line and said "Um excuse me Can I make some copies?" They got rejected They were like "No dude Get in the back of line We're all making copies." But if someone said "Excuse me can I make copies i really have to copy this." Like with a reason people were more likely let them cut Even though it was exactly the same thing as the first thing The point of the study was to show that if you have a because even if it's a silly because people are more likely to do things for you Now I don't love this idea but I think the important point for us is you want to know your why That's why I said tell people who you help So if you're a CEO of a media company who you help is your most interesting client Or if you're a life coach don't just say I'm a life coach or I'm a a consultant I'm a life coach I help women who really want to get their nutrition under control Then I know who you work for That's your why And that gives someone a reason or you know I'd really love to work with you I think that I could really really change your nutritional outlook and put you in more control of your of your nutrition That because even though it's implied even though I already heard it it hooks someone in to go "Ah if they have a why I can buy into that why." Mhm And I don't think he did a very good job on that However he was very warm with her even though he wasn't into it I thought that was very respectful How are either of them supposed to know if the other person is attracted to them exactly This is why I'm doing what I'm doing The number one thing that is causing loneliness is we are withholding our liking both with friends and in romance With all of these daters none of them 0% showed any kind of obvious liking How are we going to have babies how are we going to have marriages if we're withholding our liking how are we going to have friends if we don't know if someone likes us i think we should be going around showing amplifying our likes to people that we're with So how do I signal that I like someone and how do I know if they like me okay so verbally I think it's very easy right you can be very direct and be like "Oh my gosh this is so much fun." So like my magic phrases right if someone is interesting funny likable fun say in that moment h this is so fun This is so interesting Being with you is always so interesting So that's one way you can do it is affirming the adjective that you're already feeling and saying it out loud right like I think that Kendrick was very funny And I actually said to him in our like pre-in I was like "Oh you're really funny That must be a double-edged sword." He was the first guy The first guy Yeah I said "You're really funny." And that made him feel really good I was like "Oh yeah Yeah I am." And I was like "I think that's good but also probably it's harder to get depth." He's like "Yes that's true." So if someone is funny interesting delightful a good conversationalist tell them That's the first thing is like don't withhold that We don't tell people do we never We don't tell people Just thinking about a meeting I had last week and I was thinking God if id started that meeting just by telling the person what I thought of them really positive thing it would have completely probably made them feel good Yes Goes back to your point about giving them serotonin or and it makes you more likable Like we like people who like us So the more obvious you are with your liking actually just makes you more likable So affirming them making sure that they know that you were thinking of them So like I was just thinking of you I was so looking forward to this I was looking forward to this all day And then non-verbal liking So for men vocalizations H oh we love those We love a triple nod We love a head tilt We love a lean All of those Yeah Seem oh you know I there was something funny that I read recently which is women list humor as a number one trait they want in a man Men don't care as much about humor in a woman They want a woman who laughs at their jokes Of course I thought this was so good and so helpful that that for a man yes it's good if you can work on being funny because women do like it But if you're a woman you actually don't have to be that funny You just have to be willing to laugh And that brings me back to liking Being an easy laugher like being ready to laugh is one of the most likable complimentary things you can do for someone else If that was good thank you I like was this real or not real we like it I like it You couldn't even tell Well that's a very believable laugh It was good There's sometimes people will like withhold their laughing or like they'll be like "Oh that's funny." Right so being an easy laugher is also like the fastest way to tell someone "I like you." When we laugh we are absolutely showing we like someone So non-verbal and verbal liking is like very What if you're not funny because a lot of people we've sort of categorize ourselves as being a funny person or a not funny person So is there a way if you're not funny to be funny yes And it's being the best passenger ever If you're not a joke teller the joke teller is the driver right in a conversation They're telling funny stories They're telling funny anecdotes They're very funny They're driving Well drivers need passengers to laugh at their jokes So you are going to be the best passenger ever You're going to laugh at the joke You're going to bang on the table I love table bangers You know I have people in my life who are not very funny but they love to bang on the table when I tell a funny joke and that makes me feel so good They don't need to be funny I'm happy to try Right so if you're not funny just be very good at hyping up other funny people You also could be a curator of funny You find the best funny gifts You find the best funny clips You share the best funny posts Like you don't have to be funny to be a curator of funny Like I have a friend who's not that funny but he has the best clips and memes that he sends me And so I think of him as funny even though he's never told a joke He's just passing on other people's funny totally But it it it's associated with him But that does make him funny cuz he knows how to select funny Cuz I've got a friend who sends like the worst gifts like they're never funny ones But doesn't it make you laugh gifts What do I mean the gifts are so sad I've got one friend My friend Ashley sends five gifts But I got this other friend who I can't name Yeah Please don't name them No Just in case everyone's listening He literally sends not funny gifts We've all got a friend that sends like the bad meme and you there's like they drop it in the chat and everyone's like thumbs up you know but like doesn't it make you kind of laugh don't you love them for it i love them but I think could they improve their meme game yeah Like I I wouldn't take the risk I had hit me fire emojis in a long time I wouldn't be without conviction Okay I If that was them if that was me if I'm like I'm not that funny I can learn to be funny Do you think you can learn to be funny i I think I have Like I think I I've learned to be a little bit funny with like my sense of humor I think um take an improv class Like really really take an improv class A lot of humor is just trying things and seeing if they land So if you're not funny and you want to be and like something good to work on take an improv class and work on being funny on stage I also think you can study funny people and see how they make their jokes Like and you can have the same jokes For example I have a friend who whenever he's over at our house and I say "Babe," to my husband he goes "Yes." And it's always funny It's always funny It's the only joke he really makes but I love it And so I think that you can also have like sort of jokes that you figured out that you just use over and over again And touch is that a cue of interest yes I love touch but you have to be a little bit careful with it because if you do it inauthentically or awkwardly it's like a total fail and looks terribly horribly wrong I love a high five Like I love like "Oh my gosh that was great." Yes Oh my gosh we're both into that Like I love like you're making you can pull off high fives What like I don't know whether this is a British thing or not but if I started high-fiving people in in meetings people would think I was very strange No I think people would like it No I think I think it's I think people have like a model of you Okay I think they understand like the upper limits of your enthusiasm when you're excited who you know your playfulness I think high-fiving it's outside your bubble Jamaima do you know Jamaima out there she could high five She'd get away with it because that's like I think I have high five Jamaima There you go Yeah Okay So all right Find your thing You have a flavor Yeah Right Everyone has a flavor Your flavor is not high-fiving but it's probably something else like a dry sense of humor In fact they they did a study where they looked at worriers and not worriers like neurotics and non neurotics Neurotics are known for making self-deprecating jokes and we like it about them Like they're constantly making fun of themselves and we like it Whereas low neurotics people who are not warriors who are like really confident they love to make jokes about other things but never about themselves So like everyone has like their flavor and that's good You got to find it And you should study people who are like you right like there has to be like I love to watch um like uh those talk shows like you know Jimmy Kimmel or whatever And I pay attention to the interviews that have more than one laugh every 30 seconds So my goal in a keynote like I give a lot of keynotes for organizations I try to have a laugh every minute if I can I think that if you have a laugh every minute you're considered funny and that actually opens up the brain to more learning So on interviews I pay attention to who are the interviews what are the interviews where they're getting a laugh every 30 seconds 30 to 60 seconds And I'm paying attention to how are they doing it and that is how I've learned to be funny Like for example like a really easy one for for humor I've learned is like if you have like one two three things and the third thing is weird people almost always laugh So if you're like "Oh you know Texas is great What's the land of uh tacos cowboy hats and hot girls?" Like if you make the third thing a weird one people kind of like "Ha." Like they think it's funny And so like if you have like you can begin to play with those things if you learn But I've noticed that as a pattern just like anecdotally by watching people So I think you could find someone who's like you Like you should find a a British smart guy Who's a British smart guy who's funny jack Jack's smart Okay D and just like see what kind of jokes they're making I bet you those jokes will work for you too They do Yeah Yeah I like steal jokes from British Mafia for sure So like that works I also think there was a study that was done about like charisma and we're talking about master communicators especially leaders I work with a lot of leaders and what I tell them is you can actually channel your role model that will completely change your body language They asked presenters to present on stage a little one minute presentation which by the way very hard to do if you're not a presenter So they had have them give a little presentation on stage and they took them off and they said "Okay now we want you to channel Steve Jobs and give another presentation." Now don't tell anyone what you're doing but just in your mind just just channel him When they got on stage they were more charismatic They used more vocal variety They used more hand gestures They were more confident They spent almost double the amount of time on stage and they liked it more simply by channeling Steve Jobs So I share this because I think you don't necessarily have to be funny or charismatic on your own but if you're channeling the most funny person you know or the most charismatic person you know it can transform your vocal and non-verbal cues to be more like that person Micro expressions Yes Okay I feel like when I ask you a question every question is your favorite question I have some that are not my favorites but you haven't asked them yet Okay good Okay good This is what got me into into this work was actually micro expressions So there are many people especially if you have um narcissists in your life who misinterpret neutral expressions as negative So one of the problems I had early on that caused me to be awkward is I thought everyone hated me I thought everyone was angry at me So I would misinterpret the expression I would think they hate me which made me even more awkward It was a very bad cycle So what one of the first things I discovered with this work where I was like why doesn't everyone know this i was 20 years old and I stumbled upon this idea that some of our expressions are universal that across cultures and genders and races we make the same facial expressions for the same emotions Now there's some some controversy about microp expressions and how universal they are but there are seven that we've found have a lot of universal applications and I would love to teach you those seven please Okay let's actually start with fear So fear is a universal response and when we make this face it helps keep us safe It's when we widen our eyes so our eyelids our upper whites show we raise our eyebrows up and we usually open our mouth like that The reason we make this face innately is because if we see a tiger like back from caveman days our mouth opens takes in oxygen and opens in case we have to yell for help or run for our lives Our eyebrows and our eyelids lift up so we can take up as as take in as much of the space as possible The safest face I can make as a human is this one Right i can say anything I can take in oxygen I can see as much as possible That is why we make that expression expression when we feel fear When we see it and you see it a lot in business environments you are spotting oh I just tapped into a little bit of nervousness and it typically happens around confusion So I will sometimes be giving a presentation and I'll notice someone will go and I know I just said something that they didn't like or they made them nervous or that makes them feel a little bit afraid and I can say "This makes sense Are we all good let me rewind and reexlain that again." So I spot the fear and I immediately address it So what you want to look for is those upper whites of someone's eyes That's how you know that someone just triggered you triggered a little bit of nervousness in them When you say upper whites of someone's eyes what you what you mean i literally mean the upper whites up here So not lower Like when I'm afraid my eyes peel up so you can see the upper whites of my eyes It's very unnatural to do that right like you would never do that normally We do that when we're actually feeling afraid Now I I tend to raise my eyebrows up to show like a punctuation but this is like it's a much bigger expression Yeah So when you see it make sure that you immediately address it so you calm that fear Okay So fear is the first one The second one that I want to talk about is disgust So disgust is a very negative emotion We make it when we don't like something So it's when we crinkle our nose up and flash the upper whites of our teeth Yeah it's a space We do it to inhibit our nasal passages like when we smell something bad or taste something bad But interestingly we also do this when we don't like something we hear or see I I see this a lot with lie detection So we do a lot of lie detection research and I've noticed lying makes people feel dirty We do not like to lie And so people will often lie as they'll make the disgust expression as they're lying So I'll say you know so what do you think of the new guy oh yeah Yeah you know he's pretty good And they hold this expression up Look for secret disgust If you ask someone a preference-based question if they are lying they will often show disgust because they're literally disgusted with themselves for having to make that distinction So it's an inhibitor And you always want to look up here We don't do that naturally right we don't do that naturally at all So that's a really good one to look out for Also you can predict behavior better with disgust right so if you ask someone a question and they go um you know that they're not in a good headsp space That's when you immediately want to give permission Hey look I'm on your side I'd rather just know what you really think I have prevented lies Yeah By giving someone full permission to just tell me the truth Yeah I think I'm I pull that sometimes when I don't want to do something So someone might say "Do you want to go to this restaurant?" I go Yeah And you don't even realize you're doing it because we make it accidentally It looks like a mulling but actually I've given away that I actually don't want to go And why not be in relationships where we can say "Hey look we're good We don't have to go to dinner." Yeah Like I'd much rather say that Okay that's disgust Anger is a really interesting one So anger they did computerenerated faces and they found that when you make the components of anger it makes your face look stronger People perceive you as stronger So the reason we make this from an evolutionary perspective is because when we are angry it makes us look physically strong which makes sense before we get into a fight So anger is when we usually uh tense our lids we pinch our shoulders together and we harden our lips and we often jut our jaw out So jut your jaw at mem like before a fight people often will be like what's up what's up they jut their jaw out because it makes you look stronger It's a way of like showing territorial gestures And we also tense our lips and tense our eyes This makes us see better So right before a fight No you look confused Okay I'm sorry I'm trying to Okay So so um harden your lips Yeah I thought I had a heart on my legs Oh you actually did it perfectly just a second ago Yeah Yeah Yeah And then um you see those vertical lines appear and then tut your chin out at me Yeah That's like what are you doing i don't like this And if you hold that expression you'll begin to feel angry and defensive Isn't that weird yeah So it makes you look strong That's why we make that face I always look out for in the business environment You don't often see that full anger right but you will often see a chin jut So if I'm like in a meeting or I'm a team call and I'm looking and someone goes "Yeah I know that I've just made them a little bit angry." Typically in anger people do two things They go on the offensive or the defensive I want to prevent either So when someone's angry they go "It's not my fault it's your fault." Offensive Or they go on the defensive Not my fault I don't want that Right so they'll often attack or they get very defensive and I want to disengage that completely So I'll say hey look we are on the same page If you see someone in anger you want to immediately go into shared mutual understanding mutual goals Mhm Okay So that's anger Let's talk about a good one which is happiness So happiness we've talked about before which is the only true expression of happiness is when the happiness reaches all the way up into our upper cheek muscles all the way up here I know I've tried so hard with the smiling thing since we last met but it's really not going well for me I know But when you are happy like when you laughed earlier authentically it does it automatically It already does it So it's this upper cheek muscles When we reach those upper cheek muscles don't fake smile I'd rather you real smile That looks good Does it actually yeah Yeah that was good That looks good Oh yes I like it I'm always on the lookout for fake smiles right like especially in in the work setting is if someone especially in sales I do a lot of sales trainings If someone's like "Oh yeah I I love this but they don't love it You're not done selling." Like keep building rapport So you're looking for the absence of real happiness That's what you really want And that's really You said it's about this section Yeah This section of your face So this should go up and the eyes all the way up Yes And you remember anyone can fake smile It's all in your upper cheek muscles All in your upper cheek muscles Okay Here Yeah Like that That's it That's why you have to be careful with Botox because um there's a lot of I could talk a lot about Botox if you want to but when people um Botox their smile wrinkles they actually feel less happy So there's a feedback hypothesis of when you show an emotion you actually begin to feel the emotion So people who have Botox their smile wrinkles can't make a true happy face and actually feel less happy It's also the same with negative emotions So if you Botox your anger you'll actually feel less angry They've started to use it for anger management is if you botox your anger muscles you actually are less volatile So there's all kinds of things that happen with our face when we begin to change it Damn Okay so that's anger Um sadness Yeah sadness is the most contagious of all the expressions So sadness is the hardest one to fake It's It's really hard to do So the first thing is you pull your mouth down into a frown and then you puff out your lower lip Mhm And then you pinch your eyes together and kind of droop your lids Mhm Uh-oh Made you yawn You know what's funny is if you make a sadness expression it will either make you yawn or cry Oh your eyes watering Yeah it worked I think the yawn made the eyes water But it's all but it's all part of the same system Oh right Isn't that crazy so funny Yeah Isn't that weird how that happens so you know you've made a good facial expression or a good sadness expression when you actually begin to tear up Mhm They found that when babies want attention they pout out their lower lip because we find it quite cute right like when babies do that we're like "Oh we need to we need to help you." So it's actually evolutionary that when we do that it actually is a way that we get help So when I see that that downward frown he'll pull their mouth into a downward frown I know that something is going on for them And I'm careful with this at work especially It's empathy compassion or space Like if someone's going through something at work you don't always want to be like "Well tell me about your divorce Go ahead and tell me about that." No you might want to be like "Look if this is not a good time for a meeting we can reschedule We don't have to do this right now." So I think that space is sometimes the best thing Or can I help but it's hard to tell the difference It's hard to tell So I guess you you've just got to ask Yeah And I think like that's the the mistake that people make when coding emotions is they think that they have to rely completely on their own reading No If you see an expression you don't know what it means be like "Hey all good Are you good you want to tell me anything?" Like asking for clarity no matter what the emotion is whether it's good or bad is always good A little trick I also use if you want to calm someone down and you're not sure what's bothering them name an emotion you think it is and have them correct you So I will often use the word upset because people will almost always correct you So I'll say "Are you upset?" "No I'm not upset I'm angry." "Oh good Now we're at least on the same page I know that you're angry." Interesting And that really works well Sometimes that winds people up a little bit Yeah But at least you hit the truth True It does start the conversation Yes And it gets you to the truth of like what are they actually feeling okay we did those ones Um contempt Contempt and surprise I believe are last So we'll do contempt last Surprise is a very easy one It's actually the longest of the micro expressions because we want to see it from far away So right we just like go as wide as possible Um surprise is not positive or negative The most important thing about surprise is the difference between surprise and fear Here's why If I say to you did you know about that email that was going to be sent out on Monday to the whole team surprise I had no idea versus fear I didn't know So surprise versus fear is very important when you're trying to gauge um does someone know something or not know something It works really well with kids and teenagers too because they're bad at hiding it right they're really bad at hiding it And so like if you're like did did you did you take my phone probably not Or probably did right like you know another I think did I tell you my favorite one with kids is also nodding Nodding cues work really well with kids and partners if you didn't hear it from me Where if we when we nod yes in this culture it means yes When you nod no it means no horizontally With a kid you can often be like do you want to go to the playground or do you want to stay here often times they will pick the one that you associated with positive cues because they are reading your cues to figure out what the better choice is So oftent times with my kids I'll be like do you want to wear this shirt or do you want to wear that shirt and I'll show discuss and they're like well this one obviously So you can also associate cues if you want to encourage someone to make a choice if you know that both choices are the same with kids it works really well Okay the last one is contempt Contempt is scorn disdain pessimism It's a mark of superiority and that's why it's so dangerous When someone feels contemptuous they're often feeling better than you or they know better than you or they think better than you In marriages it's particularly damaging Dr John Gottman found that when he observes silent videos of a couple he can predict with 93.6% accuracy if that couple will get divorced within 30 years If one member of the couple shows contempt towards the other that basically if you're in a relationship and someone is contemptuous of the other person they show a one-sided mouth raise Contempt is a one-sided mouth raise or a smirk Yeah Mhm If they show that it means they feel better than that person And if that is not addressed it fers and it grows into disrespect and hatred So Gottman looks for contempt because he knows if someone in the couple feels contemptuous of the other person they feel better than that person And that is not an equal marriage Is that the only way that it comes out the the smirk is the most reliable way that contempt can come out Okay Measurably right like what about the eye roll you know an eye roll can be sort of silly but like I could like contempt no matter the context is not good right like if someone is like I don't think so You know they feel better than that's never a good thing And I roll you could be like ugh you're being so silly right so like contempt is the one expression where one you don't want to accidentally show it in your profile picture so never show an an asymmetrical smile And two if someone is showing you contempt you have some rapport building to work on Now you don't know what that contempt is It could be about you could be about the relationship It even could be about self-contempt right but you want to immediately be like "What is going on what are you feeling what's going through your mind what questions do you have for me to make sure you're addressing whatever the reason for that contempt is so it doesn't fester?" It builds though doesn't it with relationships Is there do you think there's any turning back when you've bu because people will think about the people they know in their lives and there'll be some relationships where they've kind of built up contempt over time So the minute you see this person again you're already kind of on edge You're probably already smirking eye rolling whatever The only way the only way is shared experience Talking more usually doesn't get it like you can talk more but if you have shared experiences where you're building oxytocin or you're building adrenaline you're doing something new together that scares you both a little bit it creates all kinds of chemical connections and bonds I think that's why sometimes when people go on like a couple's retreat or a big couple's uh trip it resets them It really resets them chemically If you are showing contempt you might disrespect that person You have to go into shared activities where you can build respect back Can we change can we I guess this is a question that a lot of people well like it's quite foundational to learning from you and listening to you is this like deep belief that we can change who we are because so many of us think that we're kind of stuck in our personalities and that they are rigid and that they come from our trauma our childhood our genetics But as it relates to like my personality I guess what is my what is a personality and can I change my personality should I change my personality you can kind of change your personality That's probably not the answer that you want but they've actually researched this and when you look at personality it's composed of five main traits known as ocean Openness conscientiousness extraversion agreeableness and neuroticism Every person on the planet Earth has these five traits and they fall on a spectrum high medium or low These traits are somewhat heritable somewhat genetic So there is a portion of our gen genetics we cannot change For example personality traits are somewhere between 42 to 57% heritable Meaning some of it is just literally our genes expressing themselves But that still gives us quite a bit of wiggle room What I like to focus on is if you are low on the spectrum and let's say neuroticism which is how you worry you cannot become low You cannot become highly neurotic It's too big of a it's too big of a swing But you could probably dial up to medium if you wanted to or if you were high you could probably dial down to medium So you have let's say 30 to 40% potential for change So if you want to change your mindset your goals your personality you have about 30 to 40% I think freedom to grow or change in a way that you want to if you're purposeful Can you give me the definition of those five yes Okay So openness Openness is how curious you are how open to new experiences you are how creative you are I think it's why you're willing to have new people in this setting is you like having new questions You're highly open people are extremely curious Okay The opposite is low open Low open folks love habit tradition routine Jack just said I was a control freak though Yeah Control is not about openness Okay Right Like you're willing to move around the world You're willing to meet a lot of new people Low open people want to everything to be the same They don't want to travel They don't want to experience new things And the reason for this is actually they found that highly open people have a certain form of gene called DRD4 which means that when they experience something new they get an extra load of dopamine That is why extremely high open people are adrenaline junkies They seek really new experiences all the time because they want that dopamine hit They actually get more dopamine when they try new things Low open people have less dopamine for new experiences So they're like "Why would I go travel when I have my perfect setup right here?" They are I think what's really important about personality is there is no bad there's no wrong We want diversity of personality because our high opens they explore They're the ones trying all the new things Our low opens honor our traditions and our rituals So in terms of finding a partner very important If I were dating right now I would probably make the dator take a personality test so we could see if we're matched I would literally I put up this test for free So I have a personality test It is up for free I think every single person should take it Know your own personality and also know your best friend's personality your partner personality What would you be looking for okay So I know what ma what matches really well together A high open and a low open are going to have trouble Okay So someone who is spontaneous wants to try new things new experiences versus someone who just wants to sit at home and do the same old things go to the same restaurant Yes So let's talk about this very practically I know very quickly So yes you can have hopefully have people take the test and then look at the results Like you should actually screenshot it and look If you're not sure ask someone "What do you usually do for lunch?" A high open will be like "H I love trying new places The new thing they always order the special every time." A low open person wants to go to the same restaurant with the same waiter order the same meal and they would never try the special why risk it Very different approaches to the same thing So in a relationship every single meal they're going to have a problem Like it's really easy if you have the same level of approach to new experiences Entrepreneurs as a leader leaders very good leaders are typically higher in openness So it tracks for you that you're high and open because you're willing to try new things You're willing to risk it for the biscuit You're willing to say "Okay I'm going to risk this new idea to see if it's going to work." I love risking it for the biscuit I know And that's because you're driven towards more high dopamine However high open entrepreneurs have shiny object syndrome where they are constantly chasing new ideas No And it doesn't always work No not me Okay I'm joking Of course you do it right You don't Yes Exactly And that can be very distracting So if you are working with a high open leader you are probably extremely frustrated They keep wanting to try new projects Do you think if I'm building a company I should look for people that are equal in openness to me or should I look for counterbalances that's it Okay But god they're going to frustrate me They are going to frustrate you but they're going to keep you in check True Right Like you should never have your C CFO as a high open person True That's true That's so interesting So true So like the best people like diversity of hiring is so important in personality The mistake I see in corporate because I do personality trainings for corporate is managers hire their same personality and they're all having the same problems They can never have followrough And that brings me to conscientiousness Yeah Conscientiousness is where I think opposites attract This is where I think that works Conscientiousness is your approach to detail So it's high conscious people love like I'm high conscientious I love alphabetizing I love color coding Office supplies make me so happy I love Post-it notes and files I like purses with 15 different compartments Am I losing you yeah you've lost me Okay I've lost you Yeah cuz you're medium open I mean sorry You're medium conscientious I mean all the things you just described I'm absolutely none of those things right cuz you're medium But I like detail in work Like I like work to be great and like us to care about details but I'm not like organized in the way that you described Right And also you're not doing all the details No Right You have a team doing the really difficult details of the research or the editing because you can do it but you're not super super conscientious I'm super super high conscientious So I love the details I have a color-coded calendar for my family for example I'm the only one who looks at it I wish I was more like that So highly successful people typically are more conscientious And this is what we have to remember is they've studied this Two low conscientious people in a marriage have more financial problems Yes So unfortunately this is one where high conscientiousness can help you a lot in marriage with finances in business But medium is okay So if you're low you can work on dialing up your conscientiousnesses with tools with training with habits books That's why habits books are always on the bestseller list It's because all the low conscientious and medium conscious people of the world know oo if I want to be successful I just have to get more habits By the way on the first date with Ashley and Kendrick Ashley said that she had a spreadsheet for how she spends her days And he was like "Whoa a spreadsheet." And she showed in that answer that she was super high conscientious That is really good to know in a new relationship is someone's high or low conscientious A high conscientious person they will never be late but they get very mad if you're late So it's really good to know the conscientiousness of your team and of your partner so you can better predict their behavior Is there an element of neurode divergence here as well because I'm thinking if someone has ADHD or Yes I think that they're actively studying this now I think neurode divergence neurodiversity there is personality trends with that I don't know exactly what they are yet but I know that they're looking at how does the neurode divergent community deal with conscientiousness or openness I know that also for example neurode divergent folks have a different chemical response to even eye contact So like I talk about eye contact a lot but I have to be very aware for my neurode diverent community Eye contact is harder for them and that is because when they're connecting they want to be processing and thinking So it's much harder more distracting for them if they're making eye contact So there's a lot of ways in which they are having a different response to um an interaction or a connection Okay extraversion So this is the one that this is the cool kid I call it the cool kid of personality is that everyone talks about extroverts and introverts but actually ambberverts are much more interesting to me and most people are ambberverts They fall somewhere in between extrovert and introvert Introverts get energy from being alone Extroverts get energy from being with others Ambiverts can dial up into extroverted energy but they need a lot of recharge time Like I slept like 11 hours last night in preparation for this interview right like I knew that it was going to be a lot of intense like interaction time So I wanted like a lot of flat laying in bed time because I'm ambervert leaning towards introvert I get energy from the right people but I can't do a lot of socializing Are you like this off camera like if I asked your husband what you're like when if I said to your husband "Do an impression of Vanessa." Show me what that impression would look like Vanessa at home It would be this but weirder Like I'm like I'm like a weird person at home It would be totally like this but but bigger Cuz at home I'm really comfortable Like I'm a silly mom Like with my girls like I'm dressing like a dinosaur I'm doing dance routines Like I'm very silly at home He would probably say bigger if you were to ask him Bigger Yeah Like more animated than more animated Oh my gosh Do you think I'm that animated i thought you were pretty animated Oh my gosh I'm even more animated probably at home Really yeah cuz I'm even more comfortable Okay I'm putting on plays with my girls Like I'll I'll do the whole Frozen soundtrack I wouldn't do that for you here but at home I would How many episodes we got to do before you do the Frozen soundtrack a billion Okay A million No one will be with us if we do a billion episodes Okay So extraversion is important Now this happened on the date as well is he said "I'm a super extrovert." and she said "Oh I don't go out that much." This can also be an issue in a relationship If someone is super extroverted they need lots of people time versus someone who is very introverted They don't want the people time That is constant tension in a relationship You also have roles in a company where I'll notice that people will hire for a role where the role requires extroverting For example if you're in sales you cannot be introverted It's very hard to be introverted because you're having a cold call you'll have him to smoo and build rapport You have to enjoy those networking events So it's important to factor in what is the ideal personality for this role So for example I have roles in my company where I actually don't want an extrovert Like I don't want to chitchat I don't want you socializing Like I want you to be super high conscientious and really direct I I we've we've had this where I've had a role where I had to let someone go because she wanted to chat too much And I was like I can't I can't chat I don't I don't have capacity to chat I just like let's let's work right side by side but don't talk to me Kind of not really Do you know what I mean you know what I mean where like I I knew that our team wasn't extroverted enough for her And so you want to really be careful about hiring a role for your personality So extroverts Okay Interesting Oh by the way um the best leaders are high extroverts They found this High extroverts Yeah What am I two stars out of three Middle Middle Makes sense Like I think that if you were out sch smoozing more it might help your business but might not Might be distracting to you But that's what the research says I think if I was more extroverted I'd be a better better leader I think my business would be more successful cuz I think it' be you'd be find it easier to form new relationships and you know and we could dial that up for you but you couldn't completely change right like we could dial up your extraversion but it would take a lot of energy that's the thing is we have we can change anything we want but you probably can only change it 30 to 40% it's going to take a lot of energy and the question is like do you want to do that okay agreeableness agreeableness is the hardest one to get agreeableness is your approach to teamwork highly agreeable people want everyone to like them and typically say yes to everything They're agreeable So the problem with agreeable people on a team is you ask them for something and they're like "Oh sure Yes Yeah I know these people." But they shouldn't say yes Yeah And that is because they so want to be liked and they they so struggle with people pleasing and boundaries They don't have enough um value in their own boundaries They'll say yes to anything but then they can't really do it You have to be careful with a highly agreeable person because they often overcommit Yeah I tend to find someone that's very agreeable They especially in the context of business where you're trying to figure out what the correct answer is So you have a problem and you're trying to pass out what the correct answer is You never end up going to them because they will say either what they think you want to hear or they'll just take whatever your idea was You never get good feedback from an agreeable person Exactly You never get honesty Yes Because they they can't I have trouble with highly agreeable people as friends And that's because they'll often I'll be like "Hey do you want to go to this concert in two weeks?" Oh yeah And they cancel me last minute always Yeah Cuz in their minds like maybe but probably not But they're afraid to tell me You don't want your CFO to be agreeable No Now let's talk about low agreeableness Low agreeableness Those folks default to no They are highly skeptical They don't usually want they will not do something for getting along And because they default to no they typically can be dream killers Yeah So if you're in a pitch or a presentation they're like "Nah it never work No it'll never work." Or you know you're with a highly a low agreeable person if they Google fact check everything you say Mhm Now you have to know when to leverage them right like I know when to leverage my low agreeable people I know when I want to go to them Like my husband can be very low agreeable In fact leaders are often low agreeable because they can't say yes to everything They have to be willing to say no They have to willing to have people be angry at them So I know when I go to my husband for an idea I have to be ready Ready for the dream killing because he's going to be hard on me and that's good The last one my favorite neuroticism Neuroticism is how you approach worry So you're medium A high neurotic is a worrier This is me High neurotics believe that worrying is an investment in failure prevention Yeah We worry to protect ourselves And here's what's really important to know Low neurotics are very emotionally stable They usually don't worry They say things like "Don't worry about it." or "It'll all work out." They do that because they actually have a different chemical response to negative events What they found is that high neurotics like me we carry the short form of the serotonin transporter gene Serotonin makes us feel calm It makes us feel like everything's going to be okay High neurotics we produce less serotonin more slowly So if something bad happens to me let's say I get a bad email my adrenaline shoots up my cortisol shoots up I begin to worry my body is slow to respond with the serotonin that will say "It's okay It'll be okay." So I literally have a negative response for longer That is why we worry High neurotics chemically feel things worse than lonerics So in a relationship lonerics are like "Why are you worrying about this you can't do anything about it anyway." And the hierotic is like because if it happens it will feel very bad and my serotonin hasn't kicked in yet So my husband is low neurotic I'm high neurotic This is a great match Is there a gender stereotype here yes So women are typically higher in eroticism and higher in agreeableness So they've actually studied the difference between genders Women are higher in neuroticism and agreeableness than men Men are also typically higher in extraversion So women are typically higher in worrying Yes And yes people and people pleasing Yes And men are typically lower in worrying and less likely to care about pe people pleasing and more extroverted by by nature Typically we take our time when it comes to hiring at Flight Story because I fundamentally believe the success of a business is directly linked to how good you are at hiring And better hiring starts with smarter insights LinkedIn who's a sponsor of this podcast has some of the strongest hiring data available to help you identify the best candidates for your business Their platform will even pair you with those who match what you're looking for which might lie outside of the job description and more in their unique skills and interests Because these days hiring isn't just about finding the most qualified person but also finding the one whose experience abilities and interests align with your company's mission And it goes beyond candidates who are applying for jobs too In any given week 171 million members who aren't actively seeking jobs are open to new opportunities Find your next great hire on LinkedIn and start today by posting your job for free just by visiting linkedin.com/dac So if I'm sat listening to this conversation right now and I'm sat next to somebody and I'm like I think they might be a narcissist Oh no And I I'll turn to them now So if you're sat next to someone you think's a narcissist just turn to them and say "Hey we should do this personality test on Vanessa's website What what score on the personality test would I be looking for to spot a narcissist oh goodness So narcissists tend to be uh higher in extroversion They typically love to be around people because it feeds their narcissism Again that does not mean that all extroverts are narcissists I don't know about conscientiousness I don't know if that correlates Typically narcissists are lower in agreeableness because they believe in themselves so much that they don't they're like I don't need people to agree with me I'm totally great by myself Typically they are lower in neuroticism because they don't worry They're like "Everyone likes me I'm so great Why should I be worried?" And I don't know about openness So luckily whatever their answer is you don't have to be too worried but you do want to have a conversation that goes like this I see that you're really low in neuroticism which means you don't worry about things When has that served you and when has that not served you the most important thing about personality is first analyzing yourself knowing where you fall Second is analyzing someone else How do they fit with you and the last step is do you optimize or compromise A narcissist will not compromise with you So you'll find out if they're a narcissist If as you talk about the compromises they won't When they talk about how they're neurotic they never had a problem with it Oh their agreeableness it's always been great Oh their extraversion they're perfect Their conscientiousness they do everything right They've never made a mistake Their openness their way is the better way A narcissist typically believes their personality traits are perfect typically So it's actually not their score it's how they relate to the score Interesting That should be a red flag And you said at the start of the conversation certain personality traits correlate with longevity Yes they've studied this So you want to guess which personality traits last the live the longest well I'd say if you're high conscientious then you're going to live pretty long because you're not going to take many risks You're not going to [ __ ] up But there's a close second Health Um so high conscious people are very good at habits exercising brushing teeth taking their medication and there's one more that correlates to longevity I'm going to say high extroverts because you make more friends That's it You have a partner That's it So if you are a high extrovert you have a support system You invest in your support system and you're getting a constant dose of oxytocin and serotonin which makes you feel so good which makes you feel belonging which means you seek out people when you needed help So who want advice extroverts live longer Yeah Extroverts and high conscious people live longer You want to know who lives the shortest can you guess you tell me The people who live the shortest who have the lowest lifespan are high neurotics We worry ourselves to death We have more chronic stress more anxiety and more depression So neurotics have a an issue And this is me We have a problem with our serotonin right serotonin is very complicated There's doing a lot of research on this If I don't produce as much serotonin and I produce it more slowly I am having far more negative experiences than the same person in the room Like if I'm in a car and we almost get in a car accident and I'm the high neurotic that affects me all day long I'm like jittery and jumpy all day and people earlier like what are you talking about we didn't even get in an accident It's cuz their serotonin kicked in right away began producing They're like "Oh we're good." Whereas mine is like a slow faltering car It's like I know people like that I feel sorry for them Exactly And they don't live as long So I am working very very hard in my life to one dial up my extraversion to have a really strong support system because I know that supports me both mentally and longevity wise But I'm also working on how to curb my neuroticism to dial down my worry to know that it's not an investment in worry prevention Worrying more does not prevent bad things from happening but having resilience does What about optimism and pessimism you know optimism is not a part of the personality spectrum However high neurotics tend to be more pessimistic Okay right so the more you worry the more you think bad things will happen Did you read hear about that study a study in 2015 um where they looked at the blood test results of extroverts found that they had stronger immune responses than introverts it doesn't make doesn't that make so much sense so extroverts there's a lot of things happening for extroverts one is they're exposing themselves to lots of different immune systems So they're getting more antibodies by exposing themselves to lots of different immune systems But two when they're with people they're happier If you're an introvert and you're with someone and you're unhappy and stressed your cortisol is up your adrenaline is up you're not having as good of a time Whereas an extrovert is getting all this energy getting all this dopamine which is fueling them which is making them feel better which makes them stronger I was reading about something a couple years ago as well that showed um that if you have stronger social connections it's like an insulator of stress Yes So then if you're lonely and you experience stress you physiologically feel it worse It's stress insurance Yeah Like investing in your friendships the reason why I talk about it so much it is stress insurance And by the way lifelong singles they can predict lifelong singles So lifelong singles typically low in openness which means they don't want to try new things They don't want to go to new places They don't want to go to new restaurants They won't go out and meet new people because they're low in openness Low in extraversion so they don't get energy from being around people And they're low in conscientiousness They can't even plan it That is a trifecta of you're going to have a hard time meeting your friends meeting your people because you don't get energy from people You're not open to meeting new people And you cannot have follow-through with trying to get the habit to get those new people This episode is really important for those people because it means a you're not alone There's other people who have this Two it could be your genetics at work right i think that sometimes people get like down on themselves for it I'm like look like it could be how you're wired You're not set up right to be getting energy from people Okay we have to work on that That means we have to find the right people in the right situation So if I have that person I have a lot of lifelong singles who are my students I say "Okay we can do this We can do this." Okay you don't get energy from people You're a low extrovert Where do you get energy knitting okay books great Hiking great Extreme sports great That's where I want you to hang out I want you to get energy from the activity not the people So that way you're getting all this good stuff from the activity Meeting people becomes a side effect And it's easier to be extroverted to fight with that extroversion because you're like "Oh they're doing the same activity." And you don't even have to be high open because if you love that extreme sport go to the same place every week at the same time but do it all over the city Mhm That way the first time is going to be hard but it's a ritual It's a habit And then whoever is coming in new that's your that's your app That's your people So there's ways to do this You just have to invest a little bit in it I I I truly believe that lifelong singles can find their person They just have to be looking in the right ways Is it important for me to know someone else's personality type when I meet them when you first meet them you don't have to know their personality right away However they found that you can tell many of the personality traits from a handshake From a handshake So like if we if we handshake I'm I'm like overthinking it now Like he like didn't shake my hand I was like overthinking it cuz I was going to do What are you going to do don't do anything crazy Okay Okay Like pretend that we just met Okay Just pretend Pretend Oh it's so good to meet you Okay so extroverts shake firmer I usually do this as well So sometimes I do this Very good And that's typically a mark of extraversion So like that speaks to like a little bit higher on the scale We tell from handshake of the firmness of the length of the amount of pumps that happen All of those things are informing that sort of like uh our brains like like figuring out someone's personality So you can actually pay attention to what your instinct is It's probably right They've even found um the weirdest this is like the weirdest They did a study where they observed people shaking hands and they filmed them and found that in that minute after shaking hands almost everyone touched their nose or their face and they found that their nasal dilation increased Meaning when we shake someone's hand we're kind of smelling their hand like I smell you It's so weird It's so weird But that's what we're doing It's cuz we're stressing out something about their personality There's a lot I think under the surface that we don't even realize is happening Like I swear that when I shake a nervous person's hand and I smell my hand I get a little bit nervous Really yes Like I don't like to be around nervous people because they like trigger my own nervousness Yeah Weirdest weirdest thing ever That's a really interesting thing Like you get a vibe off people when you meet them The vibe is real Yeah It's so real isn't it that's that first impression That vibe is so real Yes That's why I encourage people to not go to places where they're uncomfortable because people will pick up on that vibe Like go places where you thrive like go to the go to the activities do the things that you actually like because that's going to come across It's going to affect your vibe This is so true I I did something the other night actually with the team Do you remember that thing we did the other night i probably shouldn't say it but I went to a place which I'm like really uncomfortable in Oh why'd you do that because I They told me I had to go Yeah But you didn't like it I hated every minute of it Right I Your vibe was for sure off And I looked at myself in the photos after I was like "Fucking hell you're having a terrible time Like you really don't want to be You cannot hide it It's like my little thing was like I was like you like terrified You were probably like really afraid So I think that like energy curation is important here Yeah it's so important You can't fake it very easily can you when you and I don't think we should try to fake it right like I would much rather you set yourself up for success and say no to the things that don't work for you And there's one way that I kind of understand what I think about a person is is my vibe because it's so interesting doing this podcast I've met hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people and within the first five seconds I can feel them Yes And I don't know how to explain it other than it's almost because I sit in my little room doing my research and then I'll come out I walk around the corner and within like 3 to 5 seconds I know whether we're good to go and we're ready and we're calm and we're or if there's something off Yes Yeah Yeah That is real There's something off That is real So when you feel that anywhere on a date with someone you're hiring on a team you should trust that feeling because it is something that we cannot we have not explained with science yet It's pherommones It's the shape of your face It's the feeling of your hand and mine It's there is something happening chemically physically and you should trust it Like have you ever been led astray from that we have a closing tradition as you know on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next not knowing who they're leaving it for And the question that's been left for you is what are you doing on a daily basis to improve the life of someone else and how can you serve others better this is weird Of course of course it is Um I knew I wanted to write books I actually think of myself as a writer Like I want to be I wanted to be a writer I've always wanted to be a writer When I started to be a writer in 2007 social media did not exist Your job as a writer back then was to write books And maybe if you were lucky you had a three-month book tour To be totally honest with you I did not know I was signing up for this I did I did not If you had told me that being a writer would mean sharing videos of my home and my personal life every day I probably wouldn't have done it I don't love that part of my job to be honest with you And so um I know though that I have to share on video every day every day right to be able to get people to read my books Which part of it don't you like all of it I mean all of it Which part do you hate the most um trying to synthesize something very complicated into 60 seconds I don't like it I think communication is very complex but I know it's essential to boil down a tip into a hook and then a framework and I don't love that And so um when my career started to change like I was writing books and then it was like oh it's you know 20% of your job is marketing now 30% of your job is marketing now 50% of your job is marketing now writing books is six months of writing and the rest of your life is marketing I did not sign up for that So um I get up every day and I post videos on my stories and on my social media and I do that to serve I do not do that because I like it and if I could skip it I would but I can't It's how I'm able to write books and so that is how I serve Vanessa you are um you are an extremely rare force in this art form Thank you You really are It's I I loved it's so funny on the podcast when I love having I love the conversation I have with somebody and I walk away with it feeling like I need to watch it back again and take notes because there's so many new concepts that that feel so valuable to me But then to see the way that the world reacted to you oh my gosh it was incredible It was like unbelievable It was insane I feel like I met like 8 million new best friends That's kind of what it felt like I mean as of now I think the the video is like 8 million I don't even That doesn't even count audio It's the most downloaded audio episode we've ever had of all time So it means that's probably another six or six or seven million people or something And it it really did feel like I found my people Like I felt like literally it was like finding 8 million new friends where I fel I met 8 million recovering awkward trying to connect trying to figure it out people who are like learners and we were just flooded with love and it re-energized everything that I do cuz I was like I have got to help everyone like I have got to be more helpful and so like it was just such a gift like thank you for giving me the space and asking the questions because I just have met the most amazing You deserve it Oh it's a special gift Thanks It's blown my mind how desperate and hungry people are for this information Yes Vanessa thank you so much for being here again I really appreciate you and thank you for the you had a profound impact on our show You brought millions of new people to our show that had never listened before So we owe you tremendously and thank you for what you're doing You're a very unique person You're you have all the right balance of like wisdom articulation You're challenging but in the in the best possible way So and you're weird and you know you are and you you you own it which makes it um admirable endearing and uh a force for for change cuz so many other people out there are struggling to step into their own sort of weird authenticelves Vanessa thank you so much for being so generous with your time It's wonderful to see you again Thank you Thank you for the from the gazillions of people that stopped me in the streets and in the gyms and everywhere I went and sent me messages and just like overwhelmed me with this like wave of appreciation because of that episode and shared it with their friends like crazy Thank you on behalf of all of them too Please keep doing what you're doing Okay Yeah I will Thank you The hardest conversations are often the ones we avoid But what if you had the right question to start them with every single guest on the diary of a co has left behind a question in this diary And it's a question designed to challenge to connect and to go deeper with the next guest And these are all the questions that I have here in my hand On one side you've got the question that was asked the name of the person who wrote it And on the other side if you scan that you can watch the person who came after who answered it 51 questions split across three different levels The warm-up level the open up level and the deep level So you decide how deep the conversation goes And people play these conversation cards in boardrooms at work in bedrooms alone at night and on first dates and everywhere in between I'll put a link to the conversation cards in the description below and you can get yours at the diary.com Wow Wow