[Music] in 2023 her story of alleged clergy sexual abuse by International House of Prayer founder Mike ble rocked the Christian Community and it led the House of Prayer to permanently separate from ble then she was known simply as the primary Jane Doe but on this podcast she reveals her identity and gives new details of her story welcome to the Roy report a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church I'm Julie Roy and this Saturday February 8th the woman known as Jane Doe will be appearing at the restore conference in Phoenix Arizona joining her will be Tammy Woods another Survivor of sexual abuse by Mike Bickle and Elizabeth herder a former House of Prayer staff member and a key advocate for bickle's victims several months ago I spoke with Jane Doe and it was then that she told me that she wanted to reveal her identity and speak at the restore conference but then she had some serious health concerns and we were unsure if she'd be able to make the conference but I'm so happy to report that she's had a remarkable turnaround and she will be able to make the restore conference but a couple nights ago we were talking about her appearance at the conference and it was then that she said that she wanted to record this podcast one because there's so much of her story to tell and we have limited time on Saturday but two because she wanted people to know why she's revealing her identity before the conference and so I am so honored and thrilled to introduce you to this amazing and brave [Music] woman well again joining me today is the woman known previously only as Mike pickles primary Jane Doe but in the late 1990s when the abuse began she was just a 19-year-old intern at the International House of Prayer and she was known as Deborah Perkins so Deborah welcome it is such an honor to have you join me thank you Julie it's an honor to be here and it was an honor too in November 20203 to be able to report your story exclusively uh you came forward to one of our reporters uh Rebecca Hopkins she did I thought just an outstanding job yes she did with your story yeah but now you're coming forward with your your real name and at the time that we did the you wanted a pseudonym so why now do you want to come forward and tell the world who you are well when I really woke up to the the abuse it was me listening to a Bill Cosby Survivor and the power of her testimony was actually what woke me up and so I just if it could help anyone to put my name and my face to my story I I want want to do that it is so important and I mean even as Jane Doe I know this story made a huge huge impact in fact when it came out it was almost like just these you know like shock going through the Christian world because uh previously it was you know there was a statement made by The Advocate Group saying there were several women out there but to have a specific woman come forward and tell your story really an unbelievably courageous thing you did and and you were on the front lines like you're the first one that took an awful lot of Courage Deborah and just um you know I I I just want to say I'm so proud of you and what you did and it it really really was huge so thank you for doing that and for being willing to really be on the front lines yeah it it's an honor it's an honor it really has started you know the Avalanche of of other women coming forward and we know that there's a investigation that's going to be coming out in fact it may come out before this podcast comes out I know it's it's very imminent and we're looking forward to in some ways looking forward in some ways gretting what that's going to say uh but I think it will be revealing I said in the open that you had details that I'm just realizing uh because when we write a story like this you can only put so much in a print article but one of of the things that I just recently found out was that Mike didn't just groom you he groomed your entire family in fact you knew Mike ble you met him when you were 12 is that correct yeah talk about how he groomed your family so my dad went to a um conference in California um it was a Vineyard conference and Mike bckl was a speaker um my dad is a Nazarene pastor grew up conservative Evangelical and we just were curious to what God was doing in the charismatic World um we were unfamiliar with that world and so his first experience was hearing Mike and John wiber and Paul Kaine at a Vineyard conference in 1989 and I was 12 at the time my dad came home he actually saw signs and wonders at this conference it was powerful and Mike was this when some um you know this big personality but like approachable and so my dad um had gone up to Mike at the conference and just started asking my questions which turned into them going to a couple lunches together which was unusual favor right and so my dad my dad came home from this conference jast he had met this man Mike ble and God was moving in ways that we didn't know and so we we were con we loved so much about Mike um he loved the word and he loved the spirit and so it was this combination um and and then you know he was just wome and and easy to to talk to approachable and um yet he was a world leader and and he showed my dad such favor and kindness and uh so it really changed the trajectory of my whole family um soon after that we moved to Oklahoma and my dad again took a a pastor role there at a Nazarene church and we would then drive to Kansas City any time we could to listen to Mike and it's teaching and so I remember the first time I heard Mike it was on the life of David and I'm 12 years old and he was talking about David being chased by Saul and going from cave to cave and I remember just really touched by the way that Mike seemed to know Jesus and I as a 12-year-old um I I went up to him after the message and I told him how powerful the message was and how it touched my heart and of course that's when it starts you know and you know he just lights up and he starts to just like lavish like on me of just oh my you you're you're your dad's daughter and you know and he would just like I've wanted to meet you ever since I met with your dad and you know and so then it would lead to us having dinner together with his family or us just in his office so and we just couldn't believe it like he was our new hero in the faith and we had favor and so anytime we would come to town we got time with this man and so that went on for many years um before I actually moved to canas City yeah so that was your 12 I mean part of me would say did he really have interest in you when you were 12 but then we know now Tammy Woods her abuse started when she was 14 so that's not outside the realm of possibility but it was 7 years later when you were 19 that you moved to Kansas City and at this point he's at metr Christian Fellowship right he hasn't started the International House of prayer but you come on as an intern at metr Christian fellowship and then the grooming became much more intentional it sounds like talk about some of that grooming that Mike did with you and how it impacted you at the time I remember the first Sunday I was had moved to town he came up to me at church and he said that he had dreamed about me well you know I'm Nazarene background so the prophetic dreams that's a whole new world to me and I was like Mike ble had dreams about me wow uh but he would just talk about the sovereignty of God that I was now here and he knew I would one day move here so it was just this grandiose awesome like the big story of God but then my part to play in it and he was going to help me um you know in my destiny and so he would start prophesying to me and he was literally at every meeting I was at like it was just crazy how quick he moved in to my little World um where in this internship the leaders of the internship were just blown away at the their new found favor with Mike um you know they were nobody's before yeah before that they weren't getting that kind of attention right no like and I have a brother that had already was already in Kansas City and the same for him he he just suddenly had so much favor with Mike and and so you know Mike would come and do Bible studies for our internships but now we're doing prayer meetings and Mike's leading the prayer meetings and so he was just everywhere I mean I remember I was reading a Charles finny book and and he it was outside of the the building and he comes up to me and he's like wow that's my favorite you know I can't can't believe you're reading this book I mean know strike up a conversation um and of course he's he's already our family's hero so um I'm really comfortable I trust him more than anyone really I mean my dad's like saying this this is the the man and talking so highly about him and so um yeah that's that's where it started he he would bring me gifts um I mean it could be as random as a jar of quarters um but he he just it and he's a awkward kind of guy too but like everyone just goes oh that's just Mike and so he could he could everyone gave him a passcard he could get away with anything it was just oh my gosh Mike you know we just all like looked up to him so much yeah it's it's interesting somebody said to me kind of looks like an IBM salesman or something like that he he in so many ways not who you would expect to be this charismatic leader but I think everybody felt like he had like this direct line to God and as a result that's when he became sort of a larger than life figure it's something else I remember you mentioning that I think you told Rebecca for the story was that there are a number of other young women who were a part of this internship and he would come over and have like movie and pizza nights just with the women without his wife without his children and at the time like you know and I get it like I remember being that age and being super naive myself so like I I can understand but now looking back like how weird is that that he would do that it's so weird none of us saw it it's so crazy it's so crazy he always surrounded himself with young women and yeah that is so weird and and then there were some prophetic words for you comparing you to Esther right I mean what exactly did he say in that that prophecy that was so impactful for you so he had given me a word um on October 3 30th um it was at a Wednesday night prayer meeting and um so we had a couple of internships that were a part of the church at this prayer meeting and he had everyone pray for me and he said and he gave me Song of Solomon Stick n that I was God's favorite which you know you think about that's special but you know we're God's favorite and um but that's kind of how it started and it really moved me I I've had a really personal beautiful friendship with God since I was four years old and so when I came to Kansas City I I was a a young woman that loved the word and really loved Jesus and really was devoted and dedicated um and so that night was really special to me of wow you know uh I want to just get everything if I haven't already Jesus I Just Surrender everything to you and you know and so that was so special that I just said to Jesus you know can you confirm that this was you um by giving Mike Isaiah 49 um and that was just a precious passage to me again I'm not a prophetic person at this time um but it was I was really wanting Jesus to to say yes Deborah this is me um I'm with you and and so that Sunday morning it was November 3D 1996 I um I come to church and um Mike comes right up to me and he says Deborah I had this dream about you last night and he says it was about you and John Wimber and you know and he goes let me pray for you after my message today come up to the ministry time and I will pray for you and I will tell you the train and so you know after the message I come up and and fascinating Diane was there with him and he starts to give me the biggest prophecy of my entire life but he starts with the dream and he says in the dream I saw Isaiah 49 written over your life and he said and the Lord said give her the language of her heart and he said and then he starts to prophesy and he said Deborah you are like Esther but it's not just like eser you're going to raise up thousands of Esters and all of it was like this it was a big word but it had a sobriety to it and a fear of the Lord for me at least of if this is true then I really want to give you know everything I I want to just every part of me in every way that I know how to give myself in that kind of surrender and Devotion to God and um so then that was the day that he actually left for a trip which he always had this big thing of that he didn't travel much um that God wanted him to stay in Kansas City um so it was a big deal if he traveled and um that was when he left to go to Asia um and that day I was and it's a Sunday so I don't know why but I was at where we had our internship and I was the one that answered the phone um and so he got that number somehow and he called me and that was the first time that I remember him calling me and he he was he was kind of like in a giddy laughing mood um and he was like hi Deborah and I'm like is this Mike and he goes yes then he started talking about the word and he started giving me names like he said I'm just gonna call you Esther or I'm just gonna call you shulamite and that's some of he has a lot of coding that he does um and he's like I'm about to leave on a trip and I just was gonna call and that was a really cool word what today and wow that's just so awesome about the dream and that's when he started to come in thick with um I I soon after moving to Kansas City had I felt like I was at the center of his world and um it was powerful and I just had no grid no grid for it to be anything but this man of God that was going to help you know disciple me and um that kind of thing yeah it was interesting just having a discussion with you and several of the women uh Tammy woods and also Elizabeth herder who are going to be at the restore conference with you in just several days which I'm so excited about but you and Tammy both noted that Mike un uncharacteristic for a predator often a predator looks for women who are broken or have some sort of broken background very needy on the other he wasn't like that with you like he he actually looked for women and families that were really stable like you had a great relationship with your father you weren't looking for a father figure you weren't needing uh you know this man in your life um and you know kind of one of you know if you don't have a father in your life then often you have this hole that you're trying to fill with it but if you do have a great father in your life and this is a strength but in a way it became a weakness in that you just trusted men especially someone who's a good friend of your father like it never it it would never enter your mind at that point would it that this man isn't trustworthy or could do something bad right exactly I came from a beautiful Christian home my family was just amazing my bows of my parents extraordinary in the way that they um pastored me discipled me led me loved me um I mean just a f Foundation solid in Christ and um so yeah you're right and Tammy and I both have the same story with that we both came from really great families and and you know Mike was same with with Tammy's parents he was close with my parents I mean as soon after the grooming started he went to Oklahoma City and stayed him and Diane stayed at my house um he called me from the L landline in my own house while I was in Kansas City um he's bold too wow I the it's just kind of hitting me the the level of betrayal I mean of your father of your mother of your entire family I mean this is and obviously of you but it's just it's so wicked absolutely Wicked um I know that during sometime around this time you got the prophecy that now we know a lot of women have gotten this prophecy about Diane when did that happen and again for those who might not have heard this before what was that prophecy that he gave to you the prophecy was that Dianne was going to die his wife and that we would be married um the first time that he said that to me he called me from that trip to Asia and so he's in another time zone um it was daytime for me but it was night for him and he called I was living with a host family and he called the host family and the dad answered the phone and so he comes you know again landline days and he says um someone's on the phone for you and so I get on the phone and Mike's laughing and he tells me how he had disguised his voice um and and so of course I'm just it just all the things he does is utterly shocking and it's supposed to be right so I'm not I'm in a shock like he's calling me from from Asia um and and then he was he wasn't himself like um I I soon was like why he's laughing he's talking really loud um but in that in that space he started to tell me you know um I need to tell you something it's really serious but the Lord has spoken to me several times that Diana is going to die and he goes and I believe that we're going to get married and again now it's more shocked not just that he called me but now it's like and I'm losing agency very fast um in this time he's he's just come after me and he's so sophisticated in the way that he man iates um and lies and I mean it's just he is a dark deceiver but he it but it's masked behind my spiritual hero and my dad's friend you know and so um I soon thought something was off um and then he started to tell me about the alcohol that was in the fridge and that he had been drinking and again that was so odd because you know I came I was raised nazarine we didn't drink like in I'm just going okay okay well at least you're free but wow I mean but it's just um it was really messing with me the whole thing just shocking and um but that's when he started that telling me that and you know he would tell me an every different way for years after that um I mean he would talk about the house he was going to build me and how it was going to be modest on the front but it could be as big as I wanted on the back and um um and it was going to be on his you know and just and that again that was a aha moment for me maybe let's say eight eight years ago was like oh the the whole thing the fasted lifestyle live simple well we're finding that he's funding all of this double life that he's living you know and that's lots of Mone is going to this double life of sin you know um so yeah that was the first time that he told me the prophecy and again your 19 he's 42 married he has children I mean just the inappropriateness of this is is just off the charts completely off the charts but again you're 19 and you're naive and you've never experienced this you know one of the things that's that's striking me though as you're telling me this story I mean obviously that was a false prophecy Diane's still very much alive decades later um but the previous one you had actually asked for you know some sort of sign that this was real seemingly got that sign how do you how do you how do you deal with that like do you think God spoke through Mike or do you think he was a fraud the whole time or I mean like what do you do with that word obviously you still know the date that you got it you know and it does it still have meaning to you or do you feel like it was from God or do you feel like it was just Mike's manipulation or what do you make of that well the beautiful thing was that I was truly connected to God in all of it and so if if God had spoke to me through that Isaiah 49 that St true whether Mike got it or not um but it's it's God is mysterious and I I just have to say I'm going to have conversations with God one day ask him these questions because that one was harder harder for me because I didn't tell Mike that so how did he get it I think Mike has always been a fraud when um Tammy's story broke I it just went to the next level of the underbelly and the Darkness the evil the wickedness of this man the thought of I the thought of him being 25 and her being 14 I just so so I don't know how he got Isaiah 49 um and the good the good thing is I stayed tender before Jesus through the whole thing so I'm not like God why would you allow that I trust that he I mean he kept me you kept me that's that's the testimony and so um it took me a while to wake up to the fullness of who Mike is um I think we still don't know but uh but but the testimony is Jesus you kept me and um in the right timing in your kindness and in your gentleness in your mercy you woke me up to the evil of this man wow so in 1997 he convinces you to leave this internship at metr Christian fellowship and become basically his own like research assistant put you up in an apartment and now this I mean now you're having I mean you having a lot of contact with him before but I'm guessing as his personal assistant you're having you know just seeing them probably every every day for several hours a day yes I saw him every day um and it was several hours if I was averaging I would say you know maybe five hours a day um it wasn't like just at the apartment um we would meet up different places in the City libraries cemeteries um cemeteries yeah kind of creepy but it really creepy but he knew that no one would go there and so it was it was a place we could go you know people knew Mike in the city so there was you know he kind of had his stopping grounds of where he thought it would be safe to go um now I know that you know there were several women all along so I'm wondering if he had different places he took me to or um but yeah so it it was uh really unfortunate that he was in between being the lead pastor of Metro Christian fellowship and starting the International House of Prayer because in 97 98 and 999 he had told all of his you know staff and accountability people that he was in some kind of transition which afforded him all of this time um with no accountability with me um I remember when IHOP started how I was so relieved because not only did he now have a full-time job but it was 247 um so it it you know started to dwindle how much time we would ever have alone together and he gave you a a key to his office was that at this stage or was that later when he was had started the International House of Prayer um I had a key in the very beginning like 1996 and did any other interns have the key to his office or was that just you I think it was just me I I had a friend that was that he said I could bring her um with my key so um yeah that was that was a thing him it's a thing that we've watched with all of the different women have come forward is keys to his office keys to his hotel room I mean he gives keys so then um he goes to Europe and takes you and several other uh people team of about five of you right um there was five women and then there was one male he always had women didn't he always women around him um and then that is when things really began to turn to an overt uh sexual nature would you describe what happened on that trip so we were in several places in England um and France our final day was going to be in Paris and it was going to be our free day so we were you know we were doing book tables we were staying with host families um but in Paris he was going to get um a hotel now we were in Paris for two nights and um the first night we were um I was with my my girlfriends um that were my age um in a hotel the the next night um was different and so let me just describe that day we were taking a tour of Paris and um we had a tour guide and suddenly we're crossing the street at the L and suddenly there's no mic and all of us are just looking everywhere I mean it was literally like a suddenl and we're like where did he go and um and the rest of the day we spent looking for him and you can only imagine that we got Krabby became this weird who knows Mike the best um and it was just it was an awful day and so we finally and I still don't remember how we knew where we were to go to the Hotel this is before cell phones but we went to this really shady hotel in a shady part of town and Mike has this Sinister like smile on his face when we walk in and he's like he actually saids you know like scold us for where if you really knew me you would know that I would have stayed in the same place all day and he said I stayed at the lube all day and and waited for you guys and we're like we were there we were just all so confused but then he's going to save the day and he tells us that he's used his honorarium money to buy us each a hotel room which you know I'm thinking I don't want my own hotel room um but that's what happened and so I went to my hotel room and again you know Paris Europe it's really small and as soon as I walk in the the landline the phone rings and it's Mike and he says hey let's let's meet um at the restaurant across the street and again if I was thinking clearly I would have not said yes but I I wasn't at this time and um so I met him at the restaurant and um I remember he got us a couple rounds of cocktails and um had you ever drunk before like you said you're raised nazarine probably teoler right I had only had a glass of wine in Europe on my um I did a det A discipleship training school with used with a mission and they told us if our host family serves wine you drink drink it so I had a glass of wine before this um so you're I mean basically he knows that you don't know how to handle alcohol you've you're very young yep um and so you know I can remember I can still remember the restaurant where he's sitting where I'm sitting the next thing I remember is we are walking just to the alleyway right next to that restaurant and um and that is where he began to to kiss me and I don't mean just like Kiss like it was just full on and um yeah and then that's where I don't remember I the next thing that I remember was waking up the next day in my hotel room and I remember not being okay like I'm out of sorts I I I'm my brain is fuzzy I'm it's not like I'm sick not but I'm I'm just not okay I I I have my clothes on um but that's the day that we're going to go to the airport to come back to Kansas City and so I I'm just the whole time was even like carrying my luggage on cobblestone streets and um to get to the train station I'm just trying to okay act normal act normal and I Remember by the time we got to it on the airplane I was fine and I just remember being okay like I'm so glad I I'm I made it and so um yeah that was that was the first time I remember him sexual abuse at that point I mean now looking back I think when anybody hears a story like that you're thinking sounds like a date rate drug was given you something like that um at the time did that enter your mind and even how did you how did you process the kiss which you remember um how do you how do you process that I would think that would mess you up pretty bad it did my first journal entry I always would have time with the Lord Every Morning Journal the first one that I I just in this last year and a half or so I looked at it and I said that I felt like I was drowning and I was trying to come up for air um um but the the abuse just really progressed from that point and Mike at first would ever most times he would say he was so sorry and and um and we would need to repent and then he would lead me through Psalm 51 prayer that David wrote after committing adultery with basba and we would we would pray before the Lord and asked for forgiveness and it was just like he overstepped or we overstepped I need to take resp responsibility in that too and um and that he and that he was and that we were sorry and we were repenting um and so that that would go on and you need to know like it a lot of times we would be together and it was just all really spiritual you know it was it was I'm reading all of these desert father books and I'm I'm writing things for him I'm doing research for him I'm um we're talking about the fast lifestyle I'm I'm taking transcribing his notes and putting merging them together uh we are talking about dreams um we're talking about he has this whole prophetic history um so it wasn't like we crossed a line all the time you would have it just happened here or there at first he would lead you through a prayer obviously putting responsibility on you I mean we know now now which honestly this wasn't even talked about sadly uh back then but adult clergy sexual abuse we understand now that when somebody's a spiritual leader over you in some Spiritual Authority you don't really have agency that person you can't really give consent because there's this huge power differential and they're manipulating you yet it seems like in doing that like let confess together that he was putting this on you to make you feel guilty to make you feel like this is your thing too did you I mean were you beginning to deal with guilt on on your own for this even though it was yeah that's that's what kept both Tammy and I that's what kept us silent was that that shame again because he prayed on our utter Devotion to Jesus and and and just really Pure Heart after the Lord and so the shame you know kept it locked but I mean honestly it wasn't until I heard the Bill Cosby Survivor share her story where she was drug raped um that I fully woke up and that was in March of 2023 and so when I heard that story I was in my kitchen and um I she was talking about how she didn't like alcohol and that bill knew that and that he still gave her the alcohol and then she's saying that he slipped drugs into it as well as she knew that later um and some somehow that had the power to just break my my shelf you know I putting all of these evil things about Mike on a shelf for a long time but then it just broke and I the phrase that went through my my mind was it wasn't your fault and for the first time I saw I saw me at age 20 and him at age 43 and I had lost all agency and um and then I and I saw how powerful he was you know and it just all connected in a moment and I just hit my kitchen floor and wailed um and I had been on a a journey of of seeing things for a while and you know um something's not right the book by Wade Mullen something's not right had been going on in me in my inner most being like it just was like oh something's not right in so for years I would say for at least 17 years I had been um gently but confronting Mike on every different thing whether it was leadership or theology or another woman or I had a dream or I saw you do this to a woman in front of me and that's really wrong so I had confronted him um again thinking I was a dog that actually had a voice um thinking that he would listen and then it took me a while to realize no he's not listening and then then it took me a while to go you know you're the evil man behind the curtain even the whole the whole thing you send your flying monkeys to do your bidding but and I told him that too um years and years ago um gently again with tears but um I said Mike I I can't follow Jesus and stay at IHOP I said that should that should alarm you I go I can't do what God's asked me to do as a Believer and stay here and um anyway so but I woke up that that was my big wake up moment was hearing the Bill Cosby Survivor um and that's what that's where I remembered Paris and um and then of course the memories start all coming back and at first it's just kind of they're just here and there and you piece it all together but then it just starts to get more fluid and you begin to see the narrative the false narrative and and just how powerful it was I mean just even the desert fathers like he he would talk about they went to a desert well that was how he got me isolated I was spending hours a day alone with God now the truth is I was so that was the beauty of it you know the the put put me in a cell and it'll teach me everything I need to know you know it was true I I was connecting with God in that place and so that's how I I survived but but really actually had a a life in God in that time but he he used it all I mean the fasted lifestyle everything was to get these young women isolated Alone um all in this beautiful spirituality um yeah so it actually ended somewhere around 2,000 your dad bought you you a house eventually so you moved you moved out of the apartment several women moved in with you and and then it's it sounds like there were some others who some other women that came to IHOP that seemed to get his attention did did you get at the time though I mean you're seeing these things but you didn't really you kind of thought you were the only one for a long time correct I thought I was the only one and that's I think that's the biggest shock to me now is because I saw so much I confronted him on so much why didn't I just fully go there I I don't why I just never and I mean they say it takes especially the level of trauma that I experience and the sophistication of it it takes many years before you can unearth that trauma and remember um even just scientifically where it goes in our brain um so you kind of suppressed the memories for a long time yes I I it it was not there um I mean so a after some of my friends were coming around that first apartment um he didn't like it because he got he was there a couple times and um so he then got another apartment that was five miles further down the freeway and so I didn't live at that apartment but I would meet him at that apartment and and now it's it almost feels like a horror film you know it was in this really gross part of town and it was dirty and we had no there was no furniture it's just like it's dark but anyway um that was in 97 um I think and and then my dad got us the house in 98 so and this whole time even there were sometimes when you met him at a hotel it seems like the the line he didn't cross cross with you and with with Tammy Woods is there was never intercourse it would never everything but but but not that in some way of thinking did he think that somehow made him more chased so I didn't know this until 2023 after I had woke up um I was talking to a friend and this friend I a trusted friend uh we were at Starbucks and she's looking around to make sure and I'm like what is she about to say and she said did Mike fle ever do anything physical to you and this I mean this was like I've just told Murray at this point right and I'm like but I start to cry and I start to shake but I tell her my story and tears are streaming down her face and she said to me I have permission to tell you and to tip my hat off to you that there's a current woman and if my shelf hadn't broke already I I just wept for weeks and weeks at the horror of this and so soon after that I found out this woman told my friend that he had that Mike had said to her that Bob Jones told Mike that he could do anything he wanted with a woman except intercourse and keep his mantle wow and it makes you wonder the the level of his own self-deception I mean deception is always a part of a a predator's Behavior there's I mean obviously he was deceiving you constantly um and deceived many others but there's a self deception I mean that he could think that he could behave this way with multiple women betray them betray their families betray God destroy lives entire lives like you went on to have a life we know people who have not gone on to have a life who whose entire lives have been destroyed by Mike ble and he can think that because there was an intercourse that he has a mantle it's just I that is that is AB absolutely shocking and yet and yet not in in the sense that this is what we know now I mean the more stories I do the more the the profile of a predator becomes more clear and the self-deception is is just off off the charts um so so you kept quiet from so 2000 to 2023 so 23 years you're thinking and I think you said to me me you believed you were his darkest secret that's the term that both of you would use when you referred to this Tammy says his greatest mistake and I thought I was his darkest secret um yeah yeah the two of you have so many parallels and I know we're going to get to when when the two of you finally began communicating cuz I know that was was huge for you um but let's fast forward now to 2023 you told us about the Bill Cosby thing and that was in our article what was not in our article was you had a series of dreams I don't know if that was before and after but it was right around the same time tell me about these dreams that you're having in 2023 in February on February 5th of 20123 I had an incredibly powerful dream where um Jesus was um descending and I was descending with him and so it was just like his life like just the beauty of coming as a baby born in a manger his little life like like just the the suffering servant the 30 years before he even you know had a Ministry and then and so I'm just like watching him in in this descent from being fully God and just as a man and so it's hard to describe in the dream but so he's descending and then he continues to descend um into hell like he di I watch him die and and weep with him and then then he actually descends into hell and then he begins to ascend and all I can do is oh the power oh the power and he puts the ocean on his back of the Garment okay well all this is happening in only ways dreams can the back of my house is a courtroom and Mike is in the back of the courtroom and he's sweating and someone else is on the stand and he goes phew I don't have to take the stand and I said to him you're next and I wake up now there is a lot of beauty that I can say but I just want to talk just briefly that the the mystery part of the dream is that Lucifer wanted to ascend you know I will Ascend I will S without descending and and so it was just this this just stark contrast to the beauty of Jesus and as Believers and followers that we live a life where we descend before and we we say yes to pick taking up our cross and following before we Ascend with him in the power of his resurrection um but in in that moment he was saying I'm exposing Mike I'm going to expose Mike and so that was February 5th well I wake up and it was a Sunday and I I said to my husband babe and I tell him the dream but I said I've had this dream before and I had the same dream well when I get to church and I do this all the time because I'm a dreamer I looked up February 5th and February 5th to the day six years before I had the same dream about God exposing Mike and so I I had such fear of the Lord I wanted to get on the floor like I'm like you're going to expose Mike like and again I haven't woke up yet this is February I haven't fully woke up and then March 5th I have a dream and in the dream um it begins with Darlene Cunningham who's the founder with her husband Lauren of wwam abused with admission and she's in this news reporting room and she with joy and with tears is giving this tribute to her husband of a life well lit and the Nations all the nations are just celebrating this life and and has Lauren has touched so many and and he dies this humble man and so it was it was just this beautiful scene and then the rest of the Dream Begins to be chaotic and there's just everyone in every different stream in the body of Christ in at this like Convention Center um and it's huge you know just thousands upon thousands of people and I'm seeing people again from Nazarene you know denomination I mean all different streams and um I get lost in the my hotel and I'm now in the maid's quarters and so it goes from this really beautiful hotel to kind of dark and dingy and so I'm in the quarters and I hear Mike and he's in this drunken rage and I've never heard him in this kind of rage before and he's yelling at two women who I knew at the time know today are victims of him and he's yelling and he says why didn't you cover for me why didn't you cover for me and he's he's so angry um and so I wake up from this dream and I said to Murray I that said I said to my husband when Lauren Cunningham passes away God is going to expose Mike to the globe and he is going to be in a drunken rage about it and then it was a Friday and we were actually with um our friends having taking communion um when we get the news on October 6th that Lauren cunning H and passed away and one of my friends comes up to me and she says didn't you have this dream that when he passes away Mike was going to be exposed and I'm like w and um I said yes and then it was that Monday so that was a Friday it was that Monday that Murray went to um confront Mike and he was gonna go with someone else as Matthew 18 says to do but Mike wouldn't allow it so Murray went by himself yeah and a lot happens between March that was March 5th and October yeah 9th we'll get to what happens when when Murray goes and confronts the leaders at IHOP um but let's let's go back to you're you're having these dreams you're telling your husband about the dreams and Mike so he knew he must have known at this point he doesn't know at all the extent of the abuse but he knows what your opinion of Mike is and and maybe shares that with you that you know you both don't have a very good opinion of Mike at that point what what was his opinion of Mike based on we still we were still utterly shocked by the underbelly of this whole thing um day by day we would think we had been shocked enough so at this point in March was when I think Murray started waking up to how evil this really is in March was when Mike called the 21-day fast for Israel and when he did that he you know he sends a email which in the header it's like the biggest moment of his life to all of his former leaders anyone and everyone right and when he did it was a Sunday night and of course the way he's going to manipulate and use his power is Monday morning you're going to get on a zoom call right well most every leader you don't reach out on a Sunday night they're they're going to be busy on that Monday morning right but he in his arrogance is like no you can get off whatever you're doing and get on a zoom call right but it made me angry and I said to Murray I don't know what he's hiding but this is the biggest smoke screen I've ever seen of him and turns out there was actual evidence that had come forward that weekend a video of his son's Affair and um and so there that it was about him hiding that and um so when I said that to Murray I could I could see it on Marie's face like I know what you're telling me is true but wow so Mike is that guy like whoa okay okay I'm listening I'm listening and you know i' already had the courtroom dream about mik being exposed uh and so so then he also had his app come out in March and I was disgusted by it and that was when I actually remembered um because in the app he has all of these pictures of his face well I mean the guy is he he's 68 at the time I think and I'm like what like is this about Jesus or or you like who does that and then and then I remembered that you know as a 19-year-old he took me to his trunk in his car and and uh and he took out all of these magazines um and it was all of him Christian magazines with his face on the front cover and he just gives them to me as a gift and when I had started wow wow and for for years in my waking up process I started to put my husband in that place and I'm so I'm thinking would my husband at age 42 take a 19-year-old to his car and give them magazines with his face on the front cover sick like he he would he would never let ever let allow a magazine with his front cover first of all and so so anyway um so Mike I would say March for me but also for my husband was Mike's a bad guy Mike's a bad guy [Music] this concludes part one of my interview with Deborah Perkins and there's still so much more to tell in part two you'll hear the moving story of how friends and former IHOP leaders banded together to support Deborah and expose evil like when anyone talks about my courage I want to say it was an army of us guys it was an Army and we all went to war we've gone to war every day it's Kingdom clashing against Kingdom this isn't about exposing just sexual sin this is a system of evil and a system of darkness and men and women showed up you know showed up day after day and were so full of that courage to stand for righteousness again that's coming out in part two of my interview with Deborah Perkins and it is powerful so you'll want to be watching for that in the meantime I hope to see many of you in Phoenix for the store conference Deborah will be there along with Tammy woods and Elizabeth herder and an amazing group of other speakers and if you don't have a ticket you still can come and buy one at the door for more information just go to restore 2025. and thanks so much for listening to the Roy report a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church I'm Julie Roy and just a reminder that the Roy report is listener supported so if you've appreciated these podcasts and want them to continue please consider helping us out with a donation to give just go to Julie roy.com donate that's Julie roy.com donate also please subscribe to the Roy report on Apple podcast Spotify or YouTube that way you'll never miss an episode and while you're at it I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review and then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content again thanks so much for joining me today hope you were blessed and encouraged [Music]