JD, I'm not sure if you've been paying attention, right? But there's a bit going on with Kakula. So, some some broom pillars of burst effectively. And the extent and severity of this situation is is still kind of yet to fully play out. The both Ivanho and Zajin have put out some commentary to the effect to describe what's happening. And it's early days, so we still don't kind of know everything, but that the share price has fallen about 20% already. I'm talking about about Ivanho in in this case. And as everyone's kind of trying to piece things together, um, I thought it would be just absolutely awesome if we got the insight of Neil Ringdal, who who is a mining engineer who is so like pointed and thoughtful and great at explaining like what he is interpreting based on the press releases. Um, I caught up with Neil this morning uh just on a on a on a call and I asked him some questions mostly because he put out a couple of tweets which I I just found so insightful as he um as he spoke about what you know his interpretations of the events are, how serious they might be and what the implications could be for for Ivanho. 100% mate. It's uh the biggest copper mine in Africa. It's one of the biggest copper mines in the world. It's been a glowing success story for a number of years now. obviously owned by Ivanho as well as Zin and the Congolese government and like you said the the news has sort of rocked the stock market. So we tacked on a little bit of a conversation with the koala at the end as well to get a more of a um a markets kind of perspective on this and how he kind of interprets the event. But I'm super excited to share the uh the technical conversation with Neil as he sort of understands it his experience in underground operations. Very excited to bring bring Neil's um voice to the potty. Let us know guys if you um you want more from from Neil in the future. I I really enjoyed speaking with him and um but first mate it's Friday which means it's call KCA Friday. Normally I like to surprise Adam on Fridays but today he's told me to call KCA's recruitment manager Christian Dave. Hello Tra. What? You saved my number. Adam's picked you up. Absolutely mate. So, uh, yeah. What would it take for a guy like me who has zero underground mining expertise to to become an underground miner? Uh, have you got a manual license? Yeah. Yeah, that's a good start. Yeah, for sure. Um, like we're we're all about helping our clients, so it's what they want. if they need entry level people and they want to come to us. But in all honesty, they are coming for those experienced people, people with the skills that they're looking for, people that are a bit tired to find. So we generally have to go digging, excuse the pun. The thing with KCA, we're all pretty much ex operators. It's people they trust, people that have done it. So, we can relate to the people we're we're speaking with, obviously know some of those nuances that might be required and understand what they actually need in both the candidate and and the client. We know what it's like to be on site. If the desk coming down the hole, if you don't have the people, well, that's not working. So, when they call, they generally need someone and they need him yesterday. So having that sort of mindset as opposed to just like just recruiting, you know, see what happens. Um I think that helps. Just got KCA. I I like to talk about uh things that I'm interested in and I've always been interested in Ivanho. I actually think before you know this is negative news but I must just say I'm very impressed with the ability of that company to execute on building new mines and power plants and you know they're very very very good at that. um you know they they've done projects they've made you know projects have been on time and they've had their glitches and uh but they've been able to work through them and I guess this is another one but I'm also a shareholder so I like to talk about I like to uh talk about uh stuff I invest in and I know what it's like to be on both sides of the story. You know, I've worked for public companies before in executive positions and you know, um there's that famous phrase that goes, you know, if there's a bad press release uh in for a mining company, then the news must be very bad at very bad indeed because they always have to try and present the uh bad news in the best possible light um because of the obvious impact. It's material material information. So, it's always quite difficult to decipher these things and I felt I just wanted to, you know, share my own thoughts on what I thought was really going on behind the scenes and what might be the case, what might be happening there. Well, yeah, I think the it's been super useful because originally it appeared like, you know, the owners of this operations, a Jin and Ivanho, disagreed on maybe maybe it was semantics or or the sensitivity um as it related to what was actually happening here, but there there was a geotechnical event of some sort, but the the severity of it kind of took a little bit while to understand. you were pretty astute like early on when there was that initial understanding that there could be a bit more to the story. Yeah, I mean my ears perked up when the first press release came out that there was some problems. Um and uh then then I got very concerned when the second press release came out and there was some objection to the Zigan press release uh from Ivanhost. the two major shareholders had a disagreement. And I think it wasn't really anything, as I said in my first tweet, I don't think it was anything malicious. I just think that maybe there was a little bit less understanding or maybe there was some concern about the the possible misunderstanding of the audience what was in the Zigan press release, but essentially both press releases were saying the same thing. The one said that there was spoiling and falls of hanging wall. The other one said that there was some seismicity and uh you know pillar bursts. Okay. And when you have pillar pillars bursting, you get spoiling of the pillars. That's what it's called. When you know the sides of the pillars flake off, that's called spoiling. And you'll get bits material falling off the hanging wall as well. And it's obviously very hazardous. If anybody's in that area, these things happen uh you know seismic. It's mining induced seismicity. In other words, the seismicity wasn't there. That's very likely in my opinion. It wasn't. It wasn't. You know, that part of the Congo is not very seismically active. As far as I'm aware and uh so it has to be mining induced and and that's that's quite normal for many operations. You know, even on our mine here in Honduras, we have we also get uh we also get pillar bursts from time to time, but we don't have the same kind of very widespread board and pillar layout that they've got at uh at Cula and in a shallow mining environment like at Cula, you've you've got a you know, when you when you hear about seismicity in a in a shallow mining environment and multiple you know multiple events or or multiple you know you know bursting of pillars because that's that's very big cause for concern at any m okay it's okay if you have one now and again but if you have multiple to the extent that your main accesses uh you know are you know have to you have to get people out of there and that you know you have to start looking at alternatives to replace your pumping system because your pump columns have broken uh because of the because of the pillars bursting you know that suggests that there's something more serious okay can can you help understand the the difference between yeah like experiencing this in a deep mine versus a shallow mine and why why the extra level of concern? Um well with deeper mining uh you get more elastic behavior to the rock because of the depths. You also have a stronger horizontal stress component normally um as well as a strong obviously a very strong much stronger vertical stress component with a deeper mine. You got all this weighted rock above you. You also get horizontal stress, increased horizontal stress. And with ultra deep mines like you know the deep platinum mines and gold mines in South Africa and in some of the deep mines in North America um uh that I'm aware of, you know, you you you get the the rock actually behaves more plastically and so your support regimes are different, okay? Uh to what you need, you know, they're more of a yielding support. Um, and you have to you have to do a mine layout that's, you know, that suits suits whatever environment you're in. In a shallow mining environment, you you're dealing more with dead weight. Okay? So, we're talking anything less than some people might think is deep, but it's thousand m or less is for where where I where I grew up was considered shallow. Um, and so that's that's the environment we're talking about at Kakula. cooler. I don't know what the depth is now, but it's probably less than 500 m at this stage. I know the or body goes down to about 1,000 mters, but they haven't got that deep yet. And um so it's fairly shallow. And so when you do a mining layout, and it's also a flat body. So when you're mining a flat wall body, you obviously got to leave pillars to support the the beam, the weight of everything above you. Those pillars have to be designed for the entire rock mass above the pillar and the bit that's you know overhanging in the excavations between each pillar. Okay. And um and then how those pillars will fail uh will depend on the size and amount of stress on them. And so if you make them smaller or if you start with a big pillar and you mine out you know or you make them too small uh depending on the rock characteristics themselves it will they will fail uh they'll either fail plastically or uh you know they'll burst okay and um you know when a pillar burst I think it's important to understand that it can still have a yield resistance after bursting it just means that the solid part of the rock in the middle of the pillar ly cracked. Okay. Yeah. And you have broken rock on the sides that spool out. Okay. But as long as you keep that intact, it's still got some support resistance left. Okay. Um things can happen where you have if you have a very hard body for example and maybe the foot wall or the floor is very soft you can have what will happen there is the pillar will stay will will punch into the foot wall and and it'll it'll seem as if the floor is coming up but really the pillar's punching into the foot wall. Okay, that's a different type of failing mechanism. Um, you can also have the reverse. If you have a soft hanging wall and you have a hard or body that you're mining, it can punch into your hanging wall and that's going to be that's going to also be pretty bad. In this case, uh, from what I've read from the technical reports, the foot wall is very hard and then the all body itself is quite soft and then the material on top of it is also quite soft. So they have to do a lot of shoting and um you know a lot of support a lot of uh shoting is just basically putting a concrete skin on the inside of your tunnel. Um and then um you know you know your usual your whatever support your local support regime they've got in form of of of of bolts or anchors and uh then you've got your pillars which are holding up the mass everything above it. And so I don't know what's what is bursting. We don't have enough information uh available to us to know exactly what's happening. It could be the concrete skins on the shot crete that's bursting but I don't think so. I think probably the pillars are solid rock pillars and even though the the rock is very poor. Uh the old body is very poor. Uh it's it's that's you know it crunches and when it crunches it makes a burst and it gives a it gives you know it releases energy rapidly in that as that happens. And then what's worrying to me though, and that can happen fine, you know, sometimes you'll have a small pillar that's kind of taking a bit more load than than than the others around it. Maybe there's bigger spans between that pillar and others and it'll fail. It'll fail like that. It will be a big thump underground. You'll hear it. It'll give you a scare and that pillar will spool. And if you're nearby, you'll be okay. As long as you're not standing next to it, you'd probably be okay. But when you have multiple pillars failing that suggests that they are losing. So that beam that pillar fails. There's a little bit of movement. Now that hanging wall beam has to be supported by the remaining pillars which are still stiff but they also start failing. Ah cuz you're bringing extra like a runaway train. Okay. So you'll get a whole area that starts to fail. Oh no. And that's what's concerning. Okay. uh if it was just one or two pillars it would be okay but it seems to be widespread otherwise why would they have to evacuate the whole mine okay and so that's very concerning and so it's not really the failure mode which is what was the the objection of of the I don't know guys were you know objecting to what Zigun mining was saying in my opinion this is just my opinion okay um you know the uh I think I think it's I think it's something more serious. I'm more concerned about the number of pillars that have failed and it'd be great if we got some clarity from the company on that and I'm sure we'll get that but you know they have they have to be very careful how they how they uh you know how they how they explain this you know to avoid liabilities. Yeah, it's um it's it's a risk that was detailed in in the technical reports 20 like initially in 20 2019 and uh do you is is that a risk that's there just because of the the mining method itself or is it to do with the um you know the the the ground conditions as well a kind of combination of all those factors course it is I mean I don't you know at this stage it's too early for us to comment on whether whether it was a bad mining method or obviously there was something that that was planned that never went according to plan that resulted in this. So I mean I'm actually looking at the technical report right now here and it says you know in the 2023 it talks about you know major structures namely the westfall structures that still contain soft infilling and this coupled with tight filling during drift and full mining operations. It is unlikely seismic activity will occur on these structures and so it could be the fault structures that are moving. Okay. But the fact that they've talked about pillars bursting and spoiling I think it is the pillars. Okay. Then they say in the next sentence of this uh technical report the bracket pillars that will be left along the large structures will also assist in containing seismic activity. So if you have a fault going through an or body and you're mining along the other side, you put a pillar on either side of the fault. You don't actually mine on against the fault or through the fault except for your accesses and you leave a pillar. Those are called bracket pillars and that's to prevent because you'll have a different stress regime in this block which is defined by the by the F on the one side. It'll have different stress and this block will have different stress depending on the load. And so you can get movements on a fault and it can create that can be seismic. Okay. And that's what that's what happens in a deep mine very often. Okay. And I think that's what they were concerned about here. Okay. Um but it's not a deep mine. Nevertheless, it's a consideration that was taken into account by the geotech guys. Okay. And an induced localized. So it goes on to say however induced localized seismic response associated with strain bursting and or pillar bursting which is the same thing may occur. This will be contained a result of tight filling and correct sequencing during cut mining operations. The seismicity in this case must be related to the pillars failing. Okay. And then probably because they were too small or the mining spans were too large for that rock mass rating for that particular rock type. Okay. And and um you know in the previous technical report they said there was not enough information. They need to do more work on it. I'm sure the team there have been doing work on it. But they made a decision based on recommendations by subject matter experts to do a particular mining method and then they went and mined it and now what's happened is they found that the regional lobe bearing capacity of these pillars seems to be in question. Okay. And that's the question that they are probably looking into right now. Is it that bad that they have to go and redevelop a whole you know new mine adjacent to the existing mine or is it is it going to be um uh something that is um you know uh uh maybe they can manage. Maybe it's just, you know, a a localized area in this in one in, you know, in a in one section of the mine. They can still continue to mine. And then you have to ask yourself the question, what mining method were they using? And it was a drift and full mining method with backfill. There's a brand new backfill plant on site, fully commissioned, very state-of-the-art. But there could have been a management decision there, and that's what I suggested as well. There might have been a management decision to delay the back filling and just mine the primary drifts and then not not come back and back fill them. Just mine the primary drifts and keep going because it's such a huge or body. You could probably get away with that as long as you don't go back and rob any pillars. But maybe maybe that's what maybe that's what the issue is. Uh maybe they you know maybe they should have backfilled those. Okay. And uh or maybe there was secondary extraction going on ahead of time. people were taking a bit of a chance. It could be an operating thing. Okay. Um the geotech uh consultants will been quick to jump on that if that is the case. I'm sure. Okay. Um and I'm sure the truth will come out in the wash. But it could have just been a case that the pillar designs were, you know, there's normally multiple factors as well that causes something like this. Like any incident in the mine, it's not one factor that normally results in an incident or or or an injury or a fatality, there's normally multiple factors. Just like, you know, when you look at an aircraft investigation, I'm sure you know about the Swiss cheese principle where you have these walls of safety and they but each have their each have they're not they're not fail safe and they've got holes in them and so if the holes line up uh perfectly, then that's what happens. You got to think like craps. Yeah. So the the like the the way around this would it would it have likely have just been to Well, okay. So maybe it was maybe maybe if it was the lack of back filling back filling might have maybe mitigated it, but would could there also been an issue with the pillar sizes themselves being too too small? Um yeah, of course could be. Yeah. Um, I looked at the mining plan in my tweet and I tweeted a picture of it. Uh, you know, you could see what they did in 2019. And then there's a photograph of the mine, what's being mined in 2000. Not a photograph, but a built part of the mine. And you can have a look. You can see you can see the drifts that they've mined. And they mine out very quite a large area. It looks like about 500 meters or more in span uh over maybe a kilometer or two. Uh it's I mean they've been mining at quite a rate there and so it's a big area that's mined and it's like you know coal mines develop like that too. This is a very flat old body. So it's very similar to coal mining, underground coal mining. And uh when you do board and pillar mining, coal mining, you know, you've also got to bear in mind that your pillars have to be designed for for uh the full load over the full span. And if one area fails, the weight bear the load in that area that's failed can transfer onto the adjacent area. And I think that's what's happened here. Um and unfortunately it looks like it's gone a bit close to the development uh into the you know the main the main access development. It might have that might have gone and affected the main access declines. Uh and I only only come to that conclusion because the pump pumping system was uh damaged and they're looking at replacing you know getting in new pumps and new and new lines to to keep the mine dry. And uh I would imagine those lines would probably be in the main access declining. You would think that it would be in a more protected area. So So that is a concern. Yeah. When you when you highlight those two photos, one from 2019, the other one from 2023, what what are you comparing there and and sort of seeing that's different? You can see the block that uh they said Roman pillar mining area. Okay. I look at that Roman pillar mining area there in scale and I can see the green declines going down there. Then I switch over to the next picture uh you know as built in June 2022 and I can see that rin pillar mining area uh they've done some rin pillar mining there and then there's lots of fingers going along there if you look very small the all gray fingers. Yeah. And those are the those are the developments and in between are the pillars. Okay. And I'm not sure which of the pillars have failed and which have not, but I have to imagine that all of those pillars have gone and they've moved over towards the north port or access area which is looks like the mining gets quite close there. Okay. To that east service uh per east perimeter service drift that they've got planned there. Okay. And uh I don't know if you can show the audience where I flash. Yeah. But that area there between the north portal and the east perimeter service drift is what I think is where I imagine the pump column might be. That service drift is a decline going down probably down up by the looks of it. Um and and uh we got to see you know uh that axis will have been cut off. the part of the analysis you you you know you've put out there that grab grabs me and clearly the the share market as as well was kind of your thumb suck implications that there might be for um both both mine life and and operating costs. Um how how did you how'd you come up with with those numbers? Uh good question. It's I guess um it's uh it's what I think could be the implication. I mean, if you look at the again at the map, um I imagine that North Portal ramps pretty good down to the bottom of the straight section there, but maybe you have to redevelop all the way around to get to access, you know, uh you have to develop all around right around that caved area in a worst case scenario. Um it's quite a lot of development. There's no scale on this particular plan, but uh those are big ends. Those are 6x6 m ends. Twin ends. They're, you know, forming the east service perimeter drifts. There's two of them running down there. So, you can get an idea. It's a couple hundred meters, few hundred meters, maybe 1,000 mters of development that you'd need to reconnect to that existing design for the east perimeter service drift. And then you have to go back into the or body and develop into the or new new access drifts. Um, so I don't think it's that unreasonable to say it could be anything from 6 to 18 months uh if you have to redevelop the mine if that whole area is unsafe to go back into. But as I said, those pillars might be good enough, you know, and if the size settles down and the whole thing settles down, you may still be able to go back into the area that's where the pillars are burst and you may still be able to use some of that infrastructure again, you know, and do it safely. Um, and then just back, you know, and then the the impact will be a lot lower. We'll I'm sure everybody's doing their sums and their design work and their inspections and that and and working out what to do. And we need to give the company some time to to come up with a plan how to how to, you know, how to reestablish this. Uh again if we look at the resource and reserve most likely we're going to have a decrease in the reserve uh because you have to you know in your reserve calcs you leave pillars outside outside of reserve. Reserve is what you can actually put in the mill. So any pillars that you leave behind stability pillars you leave behind will have to come out of the res out of the reserve. And obviously if this has failed, we need to be more conservative with our design. So one would naturally conclude the pillars have to be bigger. Yeah. Okay. Um it's possible they won't. I mean if they can work out a way to back fill and do you know complete extraction uh that would be great but that would be another whole new mining method altogether and I don't know what the geotechnical implications of that would be. Okay. Um but uh but but I suppose that's a possibility. I think more realistically they'll probably end up going with bigger pillars and that would mean you know how much bigger pillars do you need? I don't know the answer to that. Um but you know even if the pillars are are 10% bigger you're probably looking at about a probably looking at about a 30% reduction in reserves. Yeah. Okay. Uh maybe maybe less but probably something like that. looking at this layout substantial. Okay, but it's substantial, but it's not it's not really an enormous given the size of this resource. It's such a magnificent resource. Okay. So, they it's just going to take longer to longer to mine. It'll take them much longer to ramp up to their planned uh their planned numbers that they, you know, they've got in their uh the phase is it phase four, phase I can't remember which phase they're on now, but in their next phase of expansion. Okay. So, it'll just be a slower ramp up. And they also obviously doing homework as I mentioned. I think they'll they'll they'll be looking at increasing production from Camoa and maybe they can fast track the it seems like Kakula West is not that badly affected. If you look at the map, it also seems like you know that south portal ramp is a little bit further away from most of the minings to date. So not as much bypass development may be required there to go and reestablish something to the west and maybe they can get into that a bit faster. Gotcha. Um got so so we got to wait and see what they say there. Gotcha. The twin the twin the twin um portals in this case you would you would you would assume you know helps the continuity of of operations as opposed to having like a an elongated period where you can't actually mine. Right. Correct. Correct. Yeah. You know and I guess you know you look at all the plan development there. um it's quite hard to see you know with this you know simplified diagrams for it would be much better to see more detail and I think there is more detail available there I haven't looked Ivanho has been very good at presenting detail on their expansion plans as they go with you know presentations and videos and I've been you know been looking at these for months and months and years and years every quarter I think every month they put out a new photo album of each of their projects And it's very interesting to see what they do. There's a lot of very good info that I get from from those photo reports and and and what they display is really impressive stuff. And with this team that they've got, they they'll do the best that they can do. It's unfortunate markets don't really give credit to teams uh you know for success really. um they've quicker to give discredit to discredit a team when they have something like this and I've mentioned that in one of my comments to some of the questions I got to these tweets is you know it's it's very easy for us to say yeah it could be management and it could be management right but these guys have done a really good chop really good job of it so we should give them the opportunity to see what they can do to come back market doesn't care about that the market's going to sell on the news right market's forward Yeah, unfortunately they're done. It's baked in. It's baked in now. So, uh, you know, so now everybody wants to know, well, what how bad is the impact? It's hard to say with the information we got and we we're really just grasping at straws here, but but I try to give it a go and and I decided that for now I'm backing out. So, I sold my stock and but that doesn't mean I think the company's going to do badly. Uh, I just think it's, you know, a wise thing to do and, you know, I'm sure they'll come up with a plan to resolve this and and, uh, you know, they'll get back into it again. And this is mining. You mining has these problems. Projects they all, you know, we always say projects get delayed. Projects will be late and they will overrun on costs. You're almost guaranteed that to happen on every project. This one kind of that's happening maybe a little bit later in the cycle. we're really in operation, which is not good. But there's so much expansion going on within within this, you know, mining complex here. Um it's something that I'm sure that they'll be able to deal with in the medium term. Yeah. Yeah. I it's um we're always forward looking for sure, but I don't think any other company could have could have uh done what what has been done in this part of the world to actually bring this operation online in the first place. in the market needs to be patient because if they you know and and I guess that's the danger that's what happened with the pressure is you know I know what it's like with these things you uh you know when you're on the side of something like this happening you you almost go through a phase of denial okay and then acceptance um you know and anger you know all the phases you get when you've got a terminal disease or something you know it's a similar type of thing And you have to be careful. I mean, if you're an executive, uh, you know, responsible for an operation like this, you can't just go out there and put up. You got to make sure you have all the facts and you've got to have it signed off. And you got to hear what the experts say, and you got to hear what your people say. And then you've got to make some tough decisions. Then you got to think about how you're going to formulate this to the market. You've got to try and do it in the best possible light, of course, because you want to have a minimum impact to your business. uh I mean to your share price really uh if you know if we're honest about it and and you know if you think about the concept of a company mining company or any company uh I I have this rather naive well I'm told this naive way of thinking about it you know the old way is you buy you buy a company stock because you believe in the future your future you know and the value of that stock is should be directly proportional to the future value of the dividends Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't worry, I still think that way, too. But um not not everything not everything's valued on DCF these days in mining, but you've got all these people who have to short the stock on news. Okay. And that makes things really really difficult. Um odd jobs. So, so you know, it's kind of crazy that the company's the share price dropped as much as it has because, you know, there's other minds that this company has control of. And you know, while this is a big part of it, it's it's not 20%. Right. The the um the the one part of everything that that um couldn't help but notice nearly any commentary was and it relates to press releases, but Turner's law of mining press releases. Now, I actually haven't heard of this before. I'm you know, I'd love to I'd love to just just hear you tell me about that. Relates. There's a there's a newsletter writer by the name of Mark Turner. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And uh he's he's the one who's always said that you know if if a mining company has to put out given the mining company has to put out or news it always has to always present it news in the best possible light you know. So if it's bad news that comes out it must be very bad. Okay. Indeed. All right. And uh I guess it's tongue and cheek but it's true you know uh unfortunately you know we've seen that before with you know with many companies uh you know they have to release bad news um uh you know there's that Australian M Capricorn um yeah well 29 medals Capricorn copper right 31 medals okay it just got worse and worse such a great Yeah I mean there's a perfect example. Yeah. Okay. Uh it's sometimes that happens and you know it's mining we mining we say you know happens you got to deal with it. So so that's what happened here and and they got to deal with it and they'll get through it and hopefully the whole management team responsible for this don't get fired. Hopefully they, you know, they they carry on going and if they do get fired, it's because they haven't done the right job. They haven't done they haven't made the right decision. They made a bad decision. Yeah. Okay. Um but I imagine I imagine they'll survive it given their great performance to date. It's in a difficult jurisdiction as well and that's part of the problem. Uh these sort of things unfortunately are going to happen more and more going forward because there's less and less good mining people out there who can who are able to run mines and mining companies. You get you get accountants and apologies to any accountants who are CEOs and and business development guys and and bank you know bankers who are CEOs mining CEOs but they they don't really know much about mining and and and it's easy to cut costs but but is that really the right thing for the mine? And you know, you can get into the whole quagmire stuff, but I think that's the biggest problem is we got and the mining engineers we've got aren't really that good. Uh the few good ones that are out there are taken. And you know, everybody who comes out of university wants to become a manager tomorrow. No one really wants to do the dog work, you know, and be a drill operator and a and a and a shift supervisor for five years. and and you know they want to get promoted and because there's no one in the business doing mining, no one wants to go into mining, none of the kids want to go into mining, there's uh there's less skills out there. Uh and so people get promoted really fast, too fast uh and they don't have the experience. And so inexper, you know, even amongst the miners, you get guys who who make who make, you know, bad decisions because they just don't have the experience. They haven't had enough time learning from the old-timers how to how to mine and what to look for when you look at a mine when you go and visit a mine. If I was if I if I didn't already decide to be a finance guy, Neil, I'd be listening to you right now and I' I'd uh you know, I'd just I' I'd study mining engineering and I'd know because there's a skill shortage I'm going to get paid so well in the future, right? But the thing but I mean uh the number of of guys you know I take a lot of respect for the oldtime miner guys who didn't go through and didn't get a degree in mining and they they are sidelined you know because other guys have degrees but they're the ones with the real experience. They're the ones that teach the people with degrees something but it takes time to do that and if the young guy is a high flyer he's going to take the highest job. I mean most of most young mining people they take the highest paying job they can get. Yeah. But sometimes you learn what you need to learn. Yeah. Yeah. And so you end up with people running mines who who have half the experience they should be. Mhm. And then these sort of things happen or they have a grade control problem and the mine has to close down because they never they never did their they never did their homework properly. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the reason. surprising. So, it's not surprising that this sort of thing could happen even with a large company like Ivanho. Yeah. You would hope that these guys would attract the best, but you know, it's this mind is in the DRC. It's not that easy to work there. Uh, you know, I've got friends who've worked there being there. Uh, it's not there's better places in the world you can work and so they have to pay very well and they may not get the right people there. I don't know if they can. I know I've turned down a couple of Congalles jobs. I went to the Congo earlier this year. I didn't make it to uh to Kaka Okamoa, but um but yeah, that was a a an absolutely transcendental experience flying into Lumumbashi airport. I tell you that much. I mean, I do love Don't get me wrong, I love parts of the DRC, you know, but Lumbbashi area and the copper bell area, I don't I don't love. Yeah. Unbelievable. Well, Neil, this has been um an absolute privilege to to get your insights and you I'm I'm certainly very grateful. I'm sure our audience will be extremely grateful that you've been generous enough to to share your you know your your your views reading between the lines and tying it all in with your decades of um real mining experience. Extremely valuable. If anyone's interested in in finding Neil, he's prolific on Twitter. I'll put a link in the um in the show notes, but thank you so much, Neil. This has been um this has been absolutely pleasure, Travis. It was good talking to you and hope to talk to you again sometime, mate. How good was that insight? Unreal. Unreal. Yeah, Neil is just like an absolute wealth of technical knowledge. Um very generous to share share his insights with us, I think. And it was interesting, right? One thing we didn't even cover with him, um, but I've been thinking about, mate, is just like, have you noticed there's been this like real flurry of of unexpected disruptions in mining operations lately, especially in Africa as well, not just Kakula, but like in the last few months, I've noticed um obviously Alphamin's spicy mine when uh that got suspended because the rebels got close. Cyrus's Balama that got suspended when farmers protested of all things. Sabier's Kof mine, hoist failure in the shaft. I'm pretty sure all those things were within the last couple of months alone. It's pretty brutal for the mining companies out there. So, I think there's a sort of lesson to expect the unexpected if you're in the mining business. That is a good saying. I think we should put that one on the wall, mate. Um, I like that. Yeah, it's it's it's interesting, right? Think about it. Because the best preparation you can have to be ready for the unexpected is actually just making sure that your insurance policies are appropriate for your mind's bespoke risks. 100%, mate. Mining companies cannot afford to have insurance policies that are not up to scratch. I just don't think it's conducive to a good night good night's sleep. You're a minor, right? And the worst thing about it is it hits you when you can least afford to be hit. That's why you got to call CRA Insurance JD. They are the gurus. The gurus in mining and construction insurance for underground for open pit or infrastructure projects. Gurus. Get yourself covered for all possibilities. The unexpected things is what you got to be worried about, mate. Gets even better, mate. They don't do cookie cutter solutions. Tailored. We're talking tailored solutions. Right for your company, right for your situation, right for your mind, right for all the risks you are going to face, the ones you know about, the ones you don't know about. And we're talking dealing with experts, quick and easy claims, mate. I think every every mining disruption, it's you didn't expect it. If you expected it, it probably wouldn't have happened. You know, that's like everyone thinks that their policies have um sufficient coverage and then something comes up and it was like, "Oh, damn it. If only I had bespoke insurance brokers that properly understand the bespoke mining risk of the jurisdiction and the operation that I have and can ensure my policies are adequate and can price things appropriately. Oh wait, they exist, mate. It's called CRA insurance. Oh, by the way, mining contractors, mining service providers gets even better because because they understand mining, it means that they will get you better policies at a better price. Thanks for the support, C. Go. Now to the conversation with Koala. Have you got any thoughts? uh not a mining engineer so hard to want to be guarded in my comments because it's not my area of expertise. I know the Ivano people to be exceptional and straightforward operators. I think that they wouldn't have had a site visit that I understand they canled um or anything if they thought that the initial seismic was going to continue. And I think this is one of these uh just very unfortunate situations. Um and you know what I will use alphamin when GMA felt M23 or when the mind shut as a good example the market hates a void of information and uncertainty. You have a spike of uncertainty. If you take the complete bullish case it's ah there's so much copper there. One or two quarters doesn't change the nav on a 40-year mine life. I do think there's levers to pull given the capushi ramp. Um that should generate some cash. Um we'll look forward in two to three years and um even if a portion of cula is sterilized um there's enough levers to pull there that you can uh push more at Kimoa, maybe push more at Kula West, develop one of the other um like I mean there's like six different proposed mines just in the Kimoa joint venture area. um you can go pull in. It'll be lower grade ore. Um but you can keep those mills full. It might take a little while in a worst case scenario to get those mills filled again. Um but I mean look, it's it's not great, but it feels like one of these classic the stock could be down 20 to 30 40% uh initially and we wake up in 12 months and it's recovered 60 to 70% of that damage. as we just get more clarity and disclosure and understanding of what it is. I mean another good example is when Glen Core DOJ happened stocks down 10%, it was down 56 billion in market cap from memory in July 2018. And then when we finally get the settlement like five years later, it's it's not even $2 billion. And it's like why' we freak out? It's like because the market just hates a void. So, I'm looking at Ivano very carefully. Um, you don't get chances to buy worldclass opportunities on sale. Even if it's got a little bit of a scratch on it now potentially, it's still a world class uh district opportunity and team. How good was that from both both Neil and the Koala? a full episode with the koala um with everything except for that little quip is going to be out either Saturday or Sunday this weekend. So stay tuned for that one. JD, we've got some partners to thank. We do. Thank you to the awesome partners at Mineral Mining Services, MMS, Grounded, Sanvic Ground Support, CR Insurance, Krill, KCA side services, Crossboundary Energy, and Black Diamond Services. If you don't like it, you can always become a recruiter. It sounds like Yeah, that's that's easy, I reckon. Yeah, well, you know, that's a very valid point. All right, mate. I wasn't sure if you were calling to just let me know or like I was actually recording. I was like, oh what I realized? Yeah. Well, I was thinking in my head, it would be funny as if if I put on some voice and just pretend I'm some rando and my friend told me to call you to get like a job and I'm just asking a bunch of dumbass questions. But then when you answered, "Oh, hey Travis, you threw me off." And I was like, "There goes my whole stick."