Transcript for:
Lecture on Brendan Dassey's Case and False Confessions

[Music] good evening my name is Steve drizen I'm the assistant dean of the bloom Legal Clinic I'm co-founder of the clinic Center on wrongful convictions of Youth and tonight I'm here in a different capacity tonight I am here as Brendan bass's attorney to all of you in this packed Thorn Auditorium and it's so nice to see this Auditorium impact to all of you in the two filled overflow flow rooms to all of you in cyberspace watching us via live feed Welcome to northwestern's pritsker School of Law and tonight the smash Netflix series making a murderer comes to Northwestern as we present the case of Brendan dassi a true story of a false confession tonight's program will be broken up in a number of parts during the first part my colleague n Laura NY Ridder and I will take you inside the interrogation room we will show you clips of the interrogation some of which were not in the movie and you'll see what we saw when we first viewed Brendan's interrogation and confession and we will explain to you why we are convinced that his confession is both coerced and false but before we get there let me recognize a few people without which this event could not happen and without which um we would not have been uh as successful in the film as we were first person I want to recognize and I'd like him to stand if it's okay is our Dean Daniel Rodriguez since arriving in January of 2012 Dan has been a very strong supporter of the clinic in general and the center on wrongful convictions in particular and I want to thank Dan personally for all of his support there are two members of the dassi legal team who are not going to be part of the formal program tonight that deserve recognition the first person I want to recognize is Tom G Tom would you stand up please this is Tom's 40th year as the legal director of the bloom Legal Clinic Tom taught me everything I know he taught me juvenile law when I was a student here he hired me after I graduated and he taught me how to be a criminal defense lawyer and he taught me how to be a clinical teacher and you might remember Tom from episode 10 in the film Tom's our most seasoned trial attorney in the clinic and he just had to be part of this team and we invited him and he was the uh the lawyer who cross-examined Mark weager and Tom fasbender the two investigators who interrogated Brendan we have another special guest tonight an unsung hero of the dassi legal team who also makes an appearance in episode 10 he's Bob Dvorak and Bob would you stand up please where are [Applause] you Bob is a criminal defense lawyer from Milwaukee he started out as our local councel and pretty soon he became our co-counsel and if we win in federal court and I hope we do Bob will deserve much of the credit in episode 10 you might remember Bob's cross-examination of the smirking defense attorney Len kachinsky and the sniveling defense investigator Michael O Kelly what you don't know what you don't know is that Bob was like a blood hound and he tracked Michael o' Kelly all the way across the country and he finally found him in Idaho he hopped on a plane he went to a conference where o' Kelly was speaking and at the end of the conference he served him with a subpoena and that subpoena required Michael O to come back to Wisconsin and bring all of his documents with him and all of his videotapes and it was from that subpoena that we got that videotape of Michael o' Kelly interrogating Brendan on the the night after his motion to suppress had been denied so let me get a sense of who's in the audience before we move forward how many people have watched making a murderer I don't want hands I want a show of claps [Applause] Applause and the reason I want to Applause is because I think it's really important that we honor both Mora deos and Laura ricardi the filmmakers who are not with us tonight but may be watching somewhere as far as I know for their brilliant job of Storytelling in that 10 episode show I mean they had to cut through over a thousand hours of film footage to get to that 10-hour series and I think they did a brilliant job how many lawyers are in the [Applause] audience now be honest lawyers some of you are not here for making a murderer purposes you're here to get those pesky hard to get CL professional responsib credits I have to remind you to turn in your clle evaluation sheets at the beginning at the end and consider this that reminder if you don't turn them in you might have to go in the marketplace and pay money to see some mind numbing CL programming how many are not lawyers in the house how many are Northwestern law students faculty or alumni is Ken Katz in the house no if he's there we welcome him and and and this is a law school and we welcome the free and fair exchange of ideas and points of view and uh I don't know if he's in the breakout rooms or not or he's watching I just want him to know that he has nothing to fear this is a law school this isn't a Donald Trump rally but we hope you watch this and you will learn something and we will make sure you get a copy of it part two of tonight's program will be a panel discussion moderated by judge Michael K Brown a criminal court judge and former criminal defense and civil rights lawyer from Minneapolis okay stand up stand up okay and joining him and and Laura and I on the panel will be Bob milin a former high-ranking prosecutor in the Cook County States attorney's office Bob and Antoinette Kavanaugh a forensic adolescent psychologist Antoinette both of them will give their special insights on the interrogation and confession of dassi and during this session Judge Brown will pose to us all of us some of the questions that you have forwarded him to him but we have a special treat for you now making a murder has struck a cord deep inside the millions of people around the world who binge watched the film I just learned that our Dean on a Saturday started at 8:00 in the morning and watched it straight through with his wife that's the way to watch it right but it sparked a much needed discussion about so many issues relating to the quality of the Justice we give to defendants in the criminal justice system and one of the people who watched the film who felt compelled to act after seeing the series was a young and a talented singer a songwriter from Hannah City Illinois a small town in Central Illinois not too far from Poria she picked up her guitar and she composed a song that so eloquently captures the pain and the loneliness and the isolation that Brendan dassi must be feeling today she is here tonight to perform perform her song with her band The Underground and the song which I hope will be a hit someday is called bad man so without further Ado let me introduce to you SMD and the underground from Parts in Central [Applause] Illinois [Music] Mama I'm calling from the inside tell my father father that I found you know I'm trying to come home mama I'm calling from the inside I can't sleep for these bad dreams please say you still believe I'm not the mad man that they show on the TV Mama they made a bad man out of me my Mom calling from the inside how is the guard in the car has he gotten very far mama calling from the inside yes I'm reading all I can and I'm longing for our land just a sad man drowning in the sea Mama they made a bad man out of [Music] me m m calling from the inside and it's the perfect kind day to throw another day away mama calling from the inside yes I'm clean in every plate but I'd rather waste away at least the dead man can say that he's free Mama they made a bad man hold of me [Music] poor poor people lose poor people lose all the time poor poor people loose poor people Lo all this time poor poor people L poor people L all the time poor poor people do poor people do on [Music] thank you it's SMD in the underground their music can be found on YouTube which is where I found it and the underground is Brandon muber and on drums it's Bob Kelly thank you very much now it's my real my pleasure to introduce you the real star of the dassi team in 2007 when I was asked to represent Brendan dassi I had a student in my class she was in she was one of those once in A- lifetime students and I assigned her to work on Brendan's case little did I know that she would grab a hold of that case and never let go she worked on the case after she graduated she came back to the clinic and worked on the case as a fellow for a couple of years and I eventually hired her and she replaced me as the legal director of the center on wrongful convictions of Youth and she has become the lead attorney in the dassi case it's my honor to introduce to you Laura nrer well I'm going to guess that the fact you're here means that most of you know the story of making a murderer in 2003 Wisconsin resident Steven Avery was exonerated of a rape he didn't commit after spending 18 years in prison 2 years after his release he went on to be accused of the brutal murder of 26-year-old Teresa halbach eventually as the state worked hard to build a case against Avery his nephew 16-year-old Brendan dassi was swept up in the sting Brendan was brought in for police questioning initially because he was his uncle's Alibi at least in part but he eventually gave the police a detailed confession on videotape to helping Steven rape and murder Teresa huk Brendan was tried to Great media Fanfare as an adult he was convicted received a life sentence like his Uncle he's fighting that conviction and we're honored to represent him in that effort now the making a murderer story is fascinating and it's rightly captured the attention of the nation but while it's fascinating and while it's a useful case to study and understand the story is still raw for Brendan for his mother his family those close to him because Brendan is living it while we all sit here in this beautiful Auditorium this evening he's sitting in an 8 by10 prison cell a cage really in rural Wisconsin where he's going to be sitting until he's 59 years old this is a serious Injustice for those of us who believe in Brendan because let me tell you right now I believe Brendan dass's confession to the rape and murder of Teresa halbach is false and that's what I want to talk about today false confessions it's a hard thing to wrap your mind around the idea that someone would someone would confess to a crime he didn't commit so let's begin our discussion by listening to Brendan himself explain at least as best he could why he falsely confessed you all know from the series that 16-year-old Brendan was interrogated by two officers at the manit toalk police station on March 1st 2006 without a parent or a guardian present the interrogation was captured on videotape and we're going to watch several parts of that interrogation video a little bit later but I want to start now by showing you some of the very last seconds of that tape because after Brendan finished confessing to rape and murder the officers allowed his mother to come into the room and talk to him she'd just been told that her 16-year-old son her youngest child her special boy with a low IQ and different needs had just confessed to a brutal crime and she asks him did you do it let's watch that moment together caught on video just a few seconds long did you huh not really what do you mean not really they got to my head huh did you catch that it's very quiet they got to my head that's it that's Brendan's explanation for why he falsely confessed they got to my head think about that we want to spend the next hour unpacking what they got to my head means what did these interrogators do to get to Brendan's head what psychological pressures can cause someone like Brendan to confess or to falsely confess to a horrific crime we'd like to answer this question by talking first about false confessions and police interrogations in general and then dive back into Brendan's case and look at some more clips from his interrogation in depth so let's begin by talking about false confessions now the realities are that while false confessions are a very difficult thing to understand why would someone falsely confess to a crime that they didn't commit especially one as horrific as this crime the reality is that the work of organization like the center on wrongful convictions and the Innocence Project have uncovered hundreds of proven false confessions these are confessions that people have given to brutal crimes they've been convicted and then after their conviction sometimes years later DNA evidence has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're innocent in fact in murder cases homicide cases like Miss hok's case we know that false confessions are actually the most common cause of wrongful conviction and here's the interesting thing most false confessions are detailed they sound believable it sounds like the person knows what they're talking about how does that happen we're going to talk about that tonight but there's a couple of myths out there about false confessions that I want to dispel right away the first one is that it's obvious when a confession is false right we all think well I'd be able to tell a false confession when I heard one because of course the person wouldn't be able to describe the crime the person wouldn't sound like he or she knew what they're talking about but that's not true again these confessions are detailed they sound accurate they sound believable another myth I would only falsely confess if somebody beat me right also not true in these cases there's not a single case amongst them of physical abuse rather all of these false confessions that I'm talking about were obtained through the use of psychological interrogation techniques nobody laid a finger on these people and we're going to talk about how that happens another one only juveniles or persons with mental limitations would falsely confess well that's not true too it's true that they're more vulnerable to those techniques in the interrogation room but each and every one of us every one of us has our breaking point and the question is when do those psychological tactics in the interrogation cross that breaking point and in fact we know that false confessions are so powerful so powerful that believe it or not 81% of people who falsely confess to crimes who took their cases to trial who fought their cases who stood up for their Innocents were convicted nonetheless this is a real problem so we want to talk today about the three errors that occur during police investigation can cause false confessions to happen the first one is the misclassification error this answers the question well how did the wrong person get inside the interrogation room in the first place then there's the coercion error once you get that wrong person in the interrogation room how are they convinced to say something so dramatically against their self-interest and then the third error once you've got that wrong person in the interrogation room once you persuaded them to make a confession well if you're innocent how do you know what to say what words are going to come out of your mouth about a crime that you weren't even there for that's the contamination error and we're going to talk about all three errors today and then take a look at Brendan's case to show you how those errors play out in his interrogation so let's start with misclassification now to understand the misclassification error how did that wrong person get inside the interrogation room you have to understand how police questioning works because there's two stages of police questioning there's the interview which is just what you would think it would be a lot of open-ended questions police trying to gather information where were you when this crime happened did you know the victim why might somebody want to do this to him or her information seeking questions just what you'd expect and then there's a second stage later very different the interrogation very different it's not about information seeking because people are only interrogated police it's a police dominated process okay the police dominate the interaction it's accusatorial and it's about getting that statement so but let's back back up for a moment and focus on the interview right this information seeking phase now during the interview these questions are being asked information is being sought but something very different is also happening during the interview police are trained to watch the ways in which people answer questions to read their body language to notice their choice of words this is what's referred to as behavioral analysis and that's what's really happening during the interview police are watching how you answer those questions and they're making judgment based on the way in which you answer those questions because police are actually trained that deception can be detected by the way in which you answer questions and that all it takes is proper training for a police officer to turn into a human lie detector so let's take a look at uh some of these training materials that teach this behavioral analysis this is a handout that is used by a company called John E read and Associates they're based here out of Chicago and about 50 or 60 years ago they developed uh a psychological interrogation technique that has since become the most widely used interrogation technique in the country about two-thirds of all officers around the country are trained how to interrogate in the re technique so let's take a look at this handout because this is a handout that Reed uses to to train officers about behavioral analysis you can see here on the left hand side we have deceptive denials these are phrases that people who are supposed to be lying use then here on the right hand side truthful denials these are supposed to be indicators of innocence of telling the truth so let's take a look I didn't take that money that means you're lying I didn't do that to her that means you're lying look on the other side I did not rob anyone well that means you're telling the truth I did not rape her that means you're telling the truth all right let's keep going these are some slides used by the president of John E Reed and Associates during a presentation that he gave at the University of Arkansas about his interrogation techniques and again on the left hand we have U body language cues that are supposed to be used by somebody telling the truth right hand side is cues that are supposed to be indicators of lying so let's take a look truthful individual is composed concerned Cooperative direct sincere and open kind of sounds like a Boy Scout a truthful individual has open Palms maintains frontal alignment don't turn that body frontal alignment and a truthful person makes smooth posture changes let's look over here though for lying what means you're lying slouching means you're lying lacking frontal alignment means you're lying hand over mouth or eyes means you're lying how about this can you read that I don't know means you're lying I can't recall means you're lying referring to God or religion my God I would have never committed this crime that means you're lying now if the sounds crazy to you I think you're right readen Associates claims an 85% accuracy rates in these methods of detecting deception but virtually every independent study that's taken a look and evaluated these message these techniques has found that people are not human lie detectors even officers who have been trained in this technique even officers who've been trained Fair no better than chance when they're trying to determine whether somebody is telling the truth or lying they're right about 45 to 60% of the time it's basically a coin toss the truth is there's no human behavior that is unique to deception there's no physiological giveaway that will tell you when someone is telling the truth or lying but this is a powerful powerful myth amongst law enforcement because it leads to this misclassification error making wrong assumptions about whether somebody's lying and therefore guilty based on body language and choice of words and whether they say I don't know this is a powerful error it can lead to bias in the investigation and it can trigger interrogation so the interrogator has spent some time during the interview process evaluating and assessing the body language and the verbal responses of the suspect who's in the box and he comes to a conclusion that the suspect is lying to them and therefore guilty and that conclusion drives the next part of the interrogation the next error is the coercion error so in order to understand the coercion error you have to understand that interrogation is a guilt presumptive process every interrogation and I've seen many especially interrogators who are trained in the read technique Begins the same way there's usually a break and the interrogator will come in after the interview process and he will make a direct accusation to the suspect that the suspect is guilty we're not here today Brendan to talk about whether you committed this crime we already know you committed this crime we have the evidence and often times they'll have a file filled with papers in it could be blank papers that they use as a prop I've been in investigating this case for weeks now I've talked talk to many many people and everybody every piece of evidence I've come up with points that you're guilty what we need to find out today is why you committed this crime at the beginning of an interrogation an innocent person's confidence that they will emerge from the interrogation process unharmed is Skyhigh what do they have to worry about they're innocent often times they're here to cooperate many times they just vol unteer to come to the police station because they have nothing to worry about but the goal of interrogation is to bring that confidence level down to such a low point to such a place of hopelessness where the suspect no longer believes that his innocence can save him and where he is powerless to resist the accusations and the demands to confess when the suspect reaches that low point point the read technique is designed to give the suspect an out and we'll talk about that in a second so here's Robert Taylor he's one of the clients we exonerated here at the center on wrongful convictions and this is how he described this overwhelming process of interrogation being interrogated felt like I was choking like there was no more air left in the room after the confrontation phase the next thing interrogators are taught is to interrupt a suspect don't let him say that he or she is innocent don't let them assert their innocence because Reed teaches its interrogators that the more the suspect asserts their innocence the more they become psychologically attached to the notion of their innocence and the harder it is to get them to confess you'll see at this stage that interrogators will move very close to suspects knee to knee within touching distance of the suspect and many times they will touch or Pat the suspect to urge them on to confess and during this process what we see in almost every case of a false confession are what are called false evidence PLO and false evidence PLO are are lies about evidence claims that police officers have evidence against the suspect that they really don't have and this can send a suspect into a into a place of panic and Desperation once that suspect is in that place and remember these false evidence employes they can be both general or specific usually they're more General because if a if a police officer tells a suspect we have your fingerprints we have your DNA we have you on video um the innocent suspect will know that that's not the case or at least there's a risk that he will know that that's not the case and not believe police officers usually they're more General General there it's the omniscience Ploy the all knowing police officer telling the suspect over and over again we already know we just need to hear it from you and police officers are allowed to lie and they have lied with abandon since 1969 in a Supreme Court decision of Frasier versus cup that blessed the practice of using deception with uh during interrogations now it's important that although police officers are allowed to not lie John E reeden Associates cautions police officers not to lie under these circumstances deceptive tactics should not ordinarily be used with individuals who have significant mental limitations or with young children or with youthful suspects of low social maturity in the next edition of Reed's manuals he should have a picture of Brendan dassi next to those words after the suspect is at that low point we see the tactic of minimization this is the out the out is a suggestion to the suspect that there are only two Alternatives both of which make the suspect guilty but one of which gives the suspect a face saving moral or legal excuse while the other Paints the suspect as a cold-blooded heartless deliberate Prem meditated killer did you intend to kill the victim or was it just an accident did you plan this act or was it just a temporary loss of self-control did you instigate the assault or were you just responding in self-defense did you want to participate in the rape or did your uncle force you to do it these alternative questions that give suspects two choices are implied Promises of leniency the suggestion is if you accept the less inous version that you will be treated more leniently in the criminal justice system and they work unfortunately they also work to produce false confessions these are three other teenagers who falsely confess to crimes they didn't commit and the perception they got from signing this confession or from agreeing to the police story was that if they just confessed that they would be allowed to go home the police officers didn't say specifically you'll be able to go home although they did say things like um we'll wrap this up soon um you know you can get on with your life other kinds of phrasings that suggest that they could go home once the suspect admits to some involvement in the crime the police officer's job is not over because while getting an admission is powerful evidence what they need to get a conviction is to have the suspect give the police officer the details of the crime that only the true perpetrator would know now this is a real problem for an innocent person he's got a guess to come up with those details and as Lura said at the beginning of this presentation many of these confessions are filled with details and many of those details are accurate how does that happen well it happens through the third error which is the contamination error and the S most significant source of contamination is what's called is fact feeding leading questions by the interrog ators that give the suspect the answers that they are looking for and the suspect will adopt those answers and incorporate them into his own confession sometimes it's leading questions sometimes they show the suspect crime scene photos sometimes they take the suspects as they did in the Central Park jogger case to the actual crime scene all of this kind of of police fact feeding is frowned upon by everybody in the world of policing here's Neil Nelson he was a police commander in St Paul he took a false confession from a 13-year-old to the murder of his father and it was only after he reviewed the recorded interrogation that he realize that he gave all of the details to the suspect and thank God it was videotaped because that videotape allowed him to see where he went wrong and he forced the prosecutor to drop the charges all right so we've talked about the three errors right misclassification coion contamination and now we want to turn to Brendan's case and take a look and see if we can find those errors in the police interrogation that he endured okay so to start out let me give you a little bit of background um Bren as we saw in making a murderer was questioned at the police station on March 1st 2006 which is where he confessed to the rape and murder of Teresa halbach but what making a murderer did not show was that that was the fourth time over a 48 hour period that Brendan was questioned by police okay now the first time was this up here the early afternoon of February 27th 2006 officers come to Brendan's high school he's in 10th Grade 16 years old they have him pulled out of class they bring him up to the principal's office and they question him there now this interrogation is only captured on audio tape they didn't bring a video camera with them so that's all we have and it's really hard to understand audio tape so I'm going to play a little bit of it for you here in a minute and you'll see what I mean but that's only the first thing that happens while they're at that High School those interrogators ask about the fact that he was at his uncle's house for about an hour that night he did help his uncle build a bonfire they did that all the time right nothing unusual for Brendan but over the course of that audio taped interrogation they say things to brandan like you must have seen things in that fire Brendan come on Brendan what did you see you must have seen a hand Brandon you must have seen feet Brendon a head something and over the course of that interrogation Brendan eventually agrees he says yes I saw fingers toes and a forehead paring back exactly the same body parts that the officers told him they knew he had seen they also plant with him the idea that there was a sexual assault involved well Brendan after you saw the fingers and the toes and the forehead in the fire you must have talked to your uncle about it and asked him what is this and he must have told you that he assaulted this young woman isn't that right Brendan and eventually on audio tape Brendan says yes that's what my uncle told me so after getting the statement from him at the high school they take him then that same afternoon to the two rivers Police Department the nearby Police Department and there they put him on video that's a screenshot of the video and there they get him to repeat the statement that they worked on at the high school so now they capture it on videotape later on that evening there's a third questioning session that same day it's at a local hotel it's in the late evening now I don't know much about it because that entire questioning session was unrecorded we don't know exactly what was said we don't know exactly how long it lasted but we do know that two days later on March 1st 2006 the officers came back to Brendan's high school they pulled him out of class again they put him in the back seat of their police car and they drove him 45 minutes away to the manitowa County Police Department that's where the interrogation that we saw in making a murderer happens and that's where Brendan gives his confession to rape and murder so let's take a look let's think about that first error we talked about the misclassification error right this behavioral analysis idea remember this slide this is the slide of characteristics that are supposed to be shown by people who are lying let's look says slouched here's a screenshot of brendon's interrogation he's slouched says hand over mouth or eye eyes sure enough he's got his hand over his mouth rigid and immobile well this is a screenshot but what you're going to see in the videos is he doesn't move very much he kind of stays in that one position barriered posture he's got his hand in front of him like this it's a barrier and you know as for these verbal things somebody who says I don't know must be lying let me tell you if there's one thing that Brendan dassi said hundreds of times during that interrogation it's I don't know I think what was happening in that interrogation room is the officers were using this notion of Behavioral analysis to make judgments about Brendan based on his body language based on his choice of words based on the fact that he answered questions I don't know and we can see where that got us now there's another part to this misclassification error I think in Brendan's case okay this down here is an email that was sent by a man named Pete Bates he was the defense investigator hired by Dean Strang and Jerry buing Steven Avery's attorneys and the defense investigator was researching Brendan's background just in case Brendan decided to testify against his uncle they wanted to be prepared so this is an email that that investigator sent to Dean and Jerry let me read it he says this kid Brendan has had problems since kindergarten particularly in the social area it's noted from as early as third grade that he can't look an adult in the eye he's withdrawn he doesn't function well with others he's been in special ed classes since grade school he has trouble understanding vocabulary both to and from him he's been continually diagnosed as having a learning disability he's easily intimidated and withdraws into himself in confront ational situations this is Brendan's disability but I think that that too these characteristics too caused those investigators to make the wrong judgments about Brendan this failure to look people in the eye this withdrawing during social situations this is his disability and I think it also is the misclassification error so what I'd like to show you now is a couple of clips from Brendan's interrogation I'm going to start here with clips that show the coercion the second error that we talked about today in particular clips that show that omniscience Ploy that Steve talked about this tactic of pretending that the interrogator knows everything there is to know about what happened there's nothing you can do to fool me I know it all already let's watch this unfold and and these clips that I'm about to show just to orient you are from the interrogation on March 1st but they begin talking about things that Brendan had previously said two days earlier on February 27th and we know like Tom said we know we reviewed those tapes we know there's some things you left out and we know there's some things that maybe weren't quite correct that you told us okay we've done we've been investigating this a long time we pretty much know everything that's why we're talking to you again today why did he why did he have you come over there did he need help with something remember we already know but we need to hear it from you why did he have you come over there and were you there when this happened no okay was she dead there then or not yeah how do you know that I have a feeling I know how you know that we already know BR we already know come on be honest with us be honest with us we already know it's okay we're going to help you through this all right come on be honest you went back into that room don't let us ston we know you were back there let's get it all out today this will be all over with Brendon be honest you were there when she died we know that don't start lying now we know you were there what happened let's just start with the room in which he finds himself you notice Brendan is sitting on a couch but he's literally backed into a corner isn't he and he's got two police interrogators right in front of him blocking the exit to the door which is to his right and what are they saying to him we already know Brendan they're building a psychological wall we know what's right you can't dissuade us there's nothing you can say to shake our belief that we know exactly what you did and they walk him through every fact of the case this is just a just a sample you were there Brendan we already know you went back in that room Brendan we already know you were there when she died Brendan we already know again and again and again and I think that this Dynamic frankly was particularly devastating for somebody like Brendan who's just a kid in school who always gets the answer wrong but really wants to get it right so this is part of the presentation of false evidence against Brendan the officers claiming that they know exactly what happened part of that process of Confrontation and accusation and it goes on for some time but after this process brings Brendan Down to that point of hopelessness my God they say they already know what I did they're telling me they have evidence they're not letting me even assert my own innocence they just keep accusing me what am I going to do what am I going to do after they bring him down to that point of hopelessness these officers tell Brendan what's at stake they remind him what's at stake and then they offer him that out that Steve talked about so this theme these next clips that I want to show you they start on February 27th so you'll hear that audio from the high school and then it continues on March 1st let's watch got people back sh dep office did something you some people don't care some people back there saying ising so no what is [Music] chest make it look you can make it look hard you we want to go back and tell people that you know brenon told us for you not be able to tell people brenon was honest it's not like Steve he's honest he's a good guy he's going to go place in this life but in order for us to do that you need to be honest with us so far you're not being 100% honest understand we'll go to that for be hon because Mark and I looked at looked at the tapes looked at the notes and it's real obvious there's some places where some things were left out or maybe changed just a bit to to maybe looking at yourself to protect yourself a little um from what I'm seeing even if I fill those in I'm thinking you're all right okay you don't have to worry about things um we're there for you um and and and we know what Stephen did and and and we know kind of what happened to you what he did we just need to hear hear the whole story from you as soon as we get that we're comfortable with that I think you're going to be a lot more comfortable with that it's going to be a lot easier on you down the road uh if this goes to trial and stuff like that Honesty here Brandon is the thing that's going to help you okay no matter what you did we can work through that okay we can't make any promises but we'll stand behind you no matter what you did okay because you're being the good guy here you're the one that's saying you know what maybe I made some mistakes but here's what I did the other guy involved in this doesn't want to help himself all he wants to do is blame everybody else okay and by you talking with us it's it's helping you okay because the honest person is no one that's going to get a better deal out of everything you know how that works you know honesty is the only thing that will set you free so this is getting serious for Brendan now right they've already told him we know everything there is to know about this case we know exactly what you did and the district attorney now they tell Brendan the district attorney is thinking about charging you in a murder case but you know what Brendan we can help you we can go to bat for you but you have to tell us what we believe is true honesty Brendon is what will set you free that's what they tell them okay and they promise him all of these things are Promises of help if he just says what the interrogators believe to be true they even say to him multiple times I'm going to help you out Brendan now these promises of help interestingly in recent years just the past few years have been disavowed by Johnny Reid and Associates that company that trains police officers how to do interrogations it says avoid interrogations that are centered on this theme that the person who will get help If Only They confess but that came too late for Brendan because this is just a sampling over those four interrogations over and over and over we hear Brendan I'll go to bat for you Brendan I'll help you you'll be set free Brendan you just need to be honest with us now these promises I believe were particularly potent in Brendan's case because of some other things that the officer said I'm going to show you a few more Clips both from the high school and then from March 1st at the police station in which the officers told Brendan that they weren't officers after all let's watch these clips Mark I [Applause] father after we go your help your mom said you'd be honest with us and she's behind you 100% matter what happens here that's what she said cuz she thinks you know more to we're in your corner we already know what happened I'll tell us exactly don't lie well that's powerful on a 16-year-old your mom thinks you know more than what you're telling us your mom told us that you'd be honest and tell us those things well of course that's a lie she never said that but Brendan doesn't know that and they're telling him your mom wants us to say these things that we know are true and they Ally themselves with Brendan's parents We're Cops but we're not right now I'm a father I've got a son of your age I want to come over there I want to give you a hug no wonder these promises of help hit home for Brendan these officers who are saying these things to him are acting as though they are going to protect him like a parent would protect a child there were three facts three absolutely critical facts in this case that were not widely known in the media in the general public Johnny reeden Associates tells investigators that they should hold back some facts because if the in if the suspect can give you those facts then you have a pretty good idea that what the suspect is telling you is true even better if the suspect can lead you to evidence that the police didn't even know about that's a pretty good indication that the suspect in fact committed the crime but there were three held back facts and the investigators in these next clips are desperate to get Brendan to give them these facts what happened between February 27th and March 1st there was no interrogation on February 28th one thing that happened was that the investigators got a report from the Wisconsin State Crime Lab and for the very first time they learned that Theresa hallback had been shot and that she had been shot in the head they needed Brendan to give those facts to them they also knew another fact they knew that somebody had disconnected the battery cables from the battery in Teresa hallback's car they needed Brendan to say that either he did that or his Uncle did that and they also knew the whereabouts of Teresa's purse her camera and her cell phone they were found in a burn barrel on the salvage yard if Brendan could give them those details they could be assured that Brendan had committed this crime now let's see how they got those facts where where he St in the stomach what else did he do to her he did something else we know that well she tried she he tied her up we know he did something else to her what else did he do to her he ched her what else did he do where we know something else was done tell us or what else did you do come on something with the head Brandon what else did you guys do come on what he made you do Brandon we know he made you do something else what was it what was it [Music] we have the evidence friend and we just need you to to be honest with us Dy cut off her hair okay what else what else was done to her head that he puner what else what else he made you do something to her didn't he so he he would feel better about not being the only person right yeah mhm what did he make you do it to her what do you make you do Brandon it's okay what do you make you do cut a cut where on throat what else happens to her in her head extremely extremely important you tell us this for us to believe you come on Brandon what else we know we just need you to tell us that's all I can remember all right I'm just going to come up and ask you who shot her in the head he did why didn't you tell us that I could think of it okay what else did he do he did something else you need to tell us what he did after that car was parked there extremely important before you guys leave that car tell you left uh the gun in the car that's not what I'm thinking about he did something to that car took the plat and I believe he did something else in that car I okay did he did he did he go and look at the engine did he raise the hood at all or anything like that to do something in a car yeah what was that what do you do Brandon it's okay what did he do what did he do under the hood if that's what he did I don't know what he did but I know he went under did you put some things in that burn barrel that night no what happened to Teresa's other personal effects I mean a woman usually has a purse right tell us what happened to that I don't know what happened to it what happened to her uh her cell phone don't try to to to think of something just I don't know did Stephen did you see whether cell phone of hers oh do you know whether she had a camera no if you know what happened to a cell phone or a camera or her purse you need to tell us okay the hard part's over do you know what happened to those items you par how do you know cuz when I passed it there was like like a person and stuff when you passed what the brain Barrel did you look what did you see like a cell phone C purse it is extremely important Brendan that you tell us this information that's Tom fast Bender telling that to Brendan you need to tell us this information so we can believe you Brendan that's mark weager telling Brendan that they knew they needed this information they wanted this information and they wanted it in the worst way and they got it in the worst way they fed Brendan those key facts and then they suggested to a jury that Brendan had come up with them on his own he didn't this is one of the worst cases of police contamination I have seen in over 20 years of looking at interrogations it is terrible police practice and it led in part to Brendan's wrongful conviction so what happens now Brendan has confessed he's given them the details that they had fed to him they've got what they think they need they have that narrative a horrific narrative a narrative that has caused people in Wisconsin to have nightmares we've heard from some of them it's a narrative that we believe is completely false and the reason we think it's false is because there's not a shred of any evidence in that trailer to suggest that Brendan was ever there there's no blood there's no semen there's no saliva there no fingerprints linking Brendan to that trailer there's no marks on the headboards from the handcuffs that were supposedly used to restrain her and I ask you I've had three 16year old boys I know 16-year- old boys they can't make a peanut butter sandwich without leaving a mess do you really think Brendan dassi is going to be able to clean up that mess so well that he leaves no trace of himself in that room it didn't happen they tore apart those floorboards they tore apart the paneling on the on the on the wall they dug deep into any cracks in the foundation there was no trace of her there so what happens after Brendan confesses and these clips these are two of them before the mother is brought in before Barb is brought in then two after the police leave the room and and Barb enters the room and to me these are the most heartbreaking Clips in the entire interrogation and let's watch them very quickly am I going to do you at school before school probably not I mean we're at 2:30 already and school's over at what 3 35 35 yeah no what time will this be done well we're pretty we're pretty much done you we may have a couple followup things to ask you but it's pretty much done you do understand that you're under arrest now so so could I call my girlfriend and tell her I couldn't come today we'll give you an opportunity to to do that okay did you kind of I mean honestly after telling us what you told us you kind of figured this was coming yeah is only for one to he where am I going where do you think you're going [Music] you going to juy that's where you're going to juvie jail about 45 minutes away there I had a question what's it what would happen if he says so like his story is different but he says he he adms to a do what do you mean like if his story is like different like I never did nothing or something did you huh not really what do you mean not really they got to my head huh didn't see [Music] anything what do you need by [Music] that what do you mean by that Brandon were you pressuring him who are you talking about him what do you mean pressuring him me talking to him no we told him we needed to know the truth we've been doing this job a long time Barb and we can tell when people are telling the truth and in my opinion he'd never be to live with himself if he didn't tell somebody there's no way he could live with that nobody could live with that I think Brendan knows that it's so heartbreaking because here's a child who doesn't know where he's going he do doesn't know for how long he's going only for a day here's a child who just confessed to participating in a rape and murder and he thinks he's going back to school it's where he wants to go he has a project in the sixth period he has to complete we also have come full circle if you will the officer comes in the room and he says he can tell when people are telling the truth because he's been doing this for a long time Barb and the result of such thinking in this case was what Laura and I believe is a patently false confession they got to my head this is Brendan's way of recanting and note that he recants at the very first opportunity when he and his mother are alone and note how he shuts up immediately when those interrogators rush back back in as his mom starts trying to get at why he confessed and he says they got to my head the best interpreter of what Ben Brendan meant by he they got to my head the only real interpreter was Brendan's mother she knows what it means when he said that she knows that it means he was pressured into lying these last Clips especially the one with Barb and with Brendan were never shown to the jury in this case um they never got an explanation from Brendan as to why he confessed in that moment right after the police officers were finished where are we today we've just taken you through the three errors that we see in all false confessions and we've taken you through the clips that we believe show they were present and they controlled the outcome in Brendan's case Court declined to suppress Brendan's confession the motion was brought by Len kachinski his attorney uh we don't believe it was litigated very aggressively by Mr kachinsky but again during that motion to suppress the tape was never played for the judge he was convicted on the basis of his videotape confession the recantation was never shown to the jury there was no expert testimony presented in this case to describe the phenomenon of false confessions no experts were presented even though Dean Strang and Jerry buing had hired an expert to evaluate Brendan's confession and that expert was ready to testify in the event Brendan flipped and testified against Stephen at his trial that expert was ready to testify in Brendan's case but his lawyers chose not to call him the other thing the lawyers did in their defense case and they were much better lawyers than Len kachinsky were was but they didn't know how to litigate a false confession case they never once played the tape in their case in Chief so the only time the jury saw this confession was when it was played straight through in 3 and 1 half hours from start to fin finish and they never played that recantation unless you break it down into chunks for the jeury unless you show them what we showed you today that all gets lost in the mind and the eyes of a jury you need to use the tape we litigated this case all the way through the state courts we spent a week in manak Wisconsin put on all this evidence our postconviction was petition was denied we took that up to the appell at [Music] court we lost again and we tried to get this case to the federal court into the state supreme court and they denied our petition for leave to appeal so now we're in the federal court and we have two claims that we're raising on avus Corpus one relates to ineffective assistance of council for Len kachinsky decision to leave and abandon Brendan with the police officers to get another confession from Brendan and a phone call from that confession session from Brendan to Barb was used against Brendan at trial and we're litigating the voluntariness of the confession we're making the case that Lan kachinsky should have made that this was both a coerced and contaminated confession we're going to now move on to the second part of this and I'll turn it back to Laura well it's now my pleasure to introduce to you the honorable Judge Michael Brown who will be moderating tonight's panel discussion the honorable Judge Brown was appointed to Minnesota's Fourth Judicial District Court by Governor Mark Dayton on September 4th 2015 he's currently assigned to the civil and criminal rotation and serves on the Statewide judicial technology committee prior to joining the bench Judge Brown was a civil rights attorney and served in numerous appointed positions with the Minneapolis Department of Civil Rights and the Minnesota human rights Department he also practiced criminal law and authored academic articles on police practices Judge Brown has been an adjunct professor and a faculty Mentor at the University of St Thomas School of Law in Minneapolis for 8 years where he recently moderated a making a murderer panel there as well please welcome me and join in please join me in welcoming Judge [Applause] Brown all right well good evening I want to start off first by highlighting uh some things that I've learned about the center for wrong wrongful conviction of Youth and I think this clle is really well in line with uh the mission that the center has which is to do Outreach advocacy education and litigation that seeks to implement policies and practices that will ensure that the evidence used against youth is reliable now since the debut of the Netflix show this last December uh many viewers of that documentary have become interested frustrated and sometimes confused about the systemic problems in the criminal justice system as highlighted by Brandon dass's case now because entertainment and media have pushed these issues into the mainstream conversation it's critical that we address them now and that is well in line with this panel and let me just start out by saying and sharing a story if I can uh one of the typical questions that I may ask potential jurors is whether or not they watch any crime drama television shows that's awfully helpful question to ask because then you get a sense of what people think is going to happen in the trial and prior to December I had what would be I think typical or standard answers standard television shows CSI and the like but after December I asked the question uh in a very serious felony case and I actually didn't get a whole lot of hands up up out of a group of 25 I thought that was kind of surprising and then one brave soul raised her hand and she said well does making a murderer count I thought yes yes does that's what I'm asking I said okay hold on raise your hand if you've seen making a murderer and my goodness everybody's hand went up I actually had to ask the question in the reverse I said okay put your hands down okay raise your hand if you haven't seen it and there was like two people I called them and they said well we're going to go and watch it after all right but my point is is that this is the sort of effect that's having on the legal profession and so this conversation I think is very appropriate so the purpose of the panel this evening is to discuss the Juvenile Justice issues that are being raised by the documentary specifically the panel is going to talk about false confessions police interrogations and wrongful convictions so you have now heard from Clinical professors Laura NY Ridder and Steven drizen the attorneys for Brandon dassy and we also have some takeaway points the three erors in the interrogations is going to be one of my takeaway points but our panelist tonight are going to be joined uh by two other experts Dr antonet kavenoff and Mr Robert [Applause] milin now I'd like to begin with uh Dr kabova Who is earned her PhD in Clinical Psychology from Northwestern University's fredberg School of Medicine and her board certification in forensic psychology through the American Board of Professional Psychology now she has served as the Clinical Director of the Juvenile Justice division of the Cook County Juvenile Court clinic and was the clinical professor at Northwestern University School of Law for 10 years and in her private practice has been AED as an expert on multiple Miller versus Alabama cases and evaluates Youth and adult in a variety of forensic issues now Mr Milan is the managing director at stro Friedberg firm in Chicago office and I understand that office has locations across the globe he provides strategic Consulting and a variety of matters that deal specifically with digital technology he's kind of a digital detective if you will before joining that firm he was an assistant United States Attorney in the northern district of Illinois where he's prosecuted cases on all levels he's also served as an Adjunct professor at the Chicago Kent College of Law and has been a guest legister at various distinguished law schools around the country so I want to join me in welcoming our panel for the discussion tonight all right so you heard a little bit about my background and I am on the uh Minnesota Statewide uh judicial technology committee so I'm going to try to use the technology that's always been part of my plan I'm in between I use technology and I use paper I'm going to use them both tonight so here's what I want you to do I want you to join me with the technology uh the audience will have an opportunity to ask questions and we had originally reached out to those who rbpd and asked you to send in your questions I actually have some of the questions that you've already sent in now if during this conversation or anything that you've heard tonight you'd like to ask a question we'd like you to send that email to that address that you see there what's going to happen is is that I'm going to get that and I'm going to vet those questions and we'll try to integrate those questions into the conversation that we're going to have tonight uh just a couple things I want to point out about it first of all the panel tonight is going to be focusing on aspects related to Brendan dass's case so the panel will not be taking any questions about Steve Avery's case also not going to talk about the theories of that case or get into the Weeds on any evidence issues specifically all right so with that what I'd like to do is I would like to jump in right away to questioning and for the first round uh I think what I'd like to do is I'd like to start with uh Professor n Ridder and you just gave a very interesting conversation and presentation on the subject of juvenile false confessions and so what i' would like to know from you is this what is next what can be done to prevent juvenile false confessions well it's a great question and it's something that a lot of people are thinking about especially in the wake of making a murderer right what do we need to do to prevent situations like this from happening again there's a wonderful organization out there in law enforcement called The International Association of chiefs of police this is an organization that we've worked with to write the first ever juvenile interrogations protocol that is geared at avoiding false confessions from people like Brendan and this is a fantastic protocol because it makes a lot of specific recommendations that you can match up to exactly what went wrong with Brandon right it says never make these sorts of promises of help that we saw during Brendan's interrogation right never suggest to a child that they're going to get to go home back to school whatever If Only They tell the truth it says never disclose facts about the crime during an interrogation don't be feeding the information to the person you're trying to get the confession from because then it's not really their confession it's your confession right you're just putting it into their mouth and it makes other very important recommendations don't let a child like Brendan go into that interrogation room without a parent or better yet without a lawyer who can adequately make sure that kid knows what's at stake so that child doesn't sit there thinking this is only going to be for one day or I get to go back to 6th hour after this happens Mr Mary uh from the prosecutor's perspective does the lack of cooperation in Brendan's confession in the form of evidence or otherwise give you pause or concern yeah from a prosecutor's perspective you know Dr kavanov and and and Laura and others can talk about you know the the child's psychological issues and and the demeanor as Laurel pointed out and those things that that other others look at but but from a prosecutor way I looked at a case was corroboration and to me and I've taught this over and over again but a confession is absolutely worthless unless you can corroborate it I'll say it again a confession is absolutely worthless unless it can be corroborated and if you look at the Brendan dassi case there is zero Cor operation to back up that very very weak confession he gave the evidence that would have been left at that scene could not have been cleaned up by the the sharpest individual let alone Avery and dassy there is no way they could have cleaned up all that blood there is no way that there wouldn't have been marks left from Shackles on the bed and everything else there's no way that that that young woman's hair wanted been found in that trailer or seen on the sheets or the bedding not a chance that that those things wouldn't have been found and the fact that there is zero physical evidence to corroborate a very very weak and ridiculous uh confession taken by that young man should be enough for the Wisconsin prosecutors and the Wisconsin police to walk away from that case all right Dr uh Kena I like for you to talk a little bit about how forensic psychologist could have assisted in Brendan D's case Okay um I think that one of the things the judge saw when he said when he ruled at the um motion to suppress hearing was that he saw nothing in the videotape that worried him and I think that that's we could see it if you're schooled on it as we've been schooled on it tonight but the problem is what's psychologically coercive to one person may not be psychologically coercive to another it's individually based so that's why it's important to have a forensic psychologist talk to Brendan and ask him things like I see in this videotape you're silent here what are you thinking or when the police said we can help you what did you think they mean because it's important to know from his perspective and that's what a good forensic psychological evaluation should do which is ask him questions so that the court can understand what was going on for him in the moment additionally a forensic psychologist will talk to other people who know Brendan well who are not just his mother he goes to school that right there is a wealth of information the psychologist will talk to his teacher saying things like when he doesn't understand does he tell you he doesn't understand when he doesn't understand how does he act does he get quiet or does he get assertive um a forensic psychologist would also I have problems with imagining how he understood his rights as well so forensic psychologist will ask the could ask the teacher could he understand the words that that the police used in giving him his rights those sorts of things also to test him for listening comprehension so that we can see what his listening um at what grade his Le his listening comprehension skills are at and whether or not we can expect this these are things that move you beyond what you can just see in the videotape and I think that that's the judge saw Brendan has the power to make rational choices that's what the judge said and I think a forensic psychologist would help you understand that's not the case all right Dean drien what are some of the police interrogation reforms that you would recommend and how would you go about getting the law enforcement Community to endorse those proposals well one of the things about this case that is important to remember is that this was the first interrogation in a major homicide case in the state of Wisconsin that was electronically recorded from start to finish the center on wrongful convictions of Youth was involved in the litigation that led the Wisconsin Supreme Court to electronically record all interrogations of juveniles and if that had not been recorded we wouldn't be here today there would be no movie or at least there would be no story of Brendan dass's case and we would be left arguing about whether the police officers in this case coerced Brendan or whether uh and the only the only information we would have would be the police officer side of the story and the story of a intellectually challenged 16-year-old kid like Brendan we just wouldn't have a movie so first off every conversation interrogation interview between a child and a police officer needs to be electronically recorded same goes with adults who are suspects as well um with regard to interrogation tactics I think we outlined all that was wrong with this I mean they violated their own protocols they know not to feed facts but they fed facts they know not to make promises of help but they made promises of help um they know or should know that police officers are not human lie detectors um and they have to stop um training police officers to think that they are so is there a a technique that you would recommend other than the read technique there are a couple of techniques that are out there that I think are much better than the read technique um there's a technique that is picking up steam throughout Canada and throughout the UK it's called the peace technique it's an acronym and I'm not going to try to remember what all the letters stand for um but it's a technique about investigative interviewing um it's not a confrontational interrogation there's no line lying or false evidence PL allowed but you keep the suspect in the room and you get him to tell his story in a narrative fashion and then while he's in the Box you go out and you send police officers to break his Alibi and to come back at him and show that you know that he's lying and over the course of time many many suspects will confess when they know that they're caught in a lie and the interrogation and the confession rates of suspects in the UK with this less confrontational approach are just as high as they were before they made the switch um from the techniques that we see in the United States all right I'm going to move along a little bit and I want to get back into the series and uh perhaps uh Mr mil I think this might be a good place for us to have a convers a little bit deeper about it uh how can the public better understand the theater of the courtroom versus the theater of programming that you see in making a murder Fair of the courtroom versus the fair of the program that's right all right I'll try to run with that I'll uh theater I don't know if I'm going to answer this exactly but I'll just little a little bit but that's all right I I looked at this I like the dean I did a crash course on making a murder this week I watched all 10 episodes and three separate days and I found myself screaming at the television and screaming at m at Mr Katz like the rest of you and and as I broke this thing down this is how I looked at it it's uh it started out with the conflict of interest I mean how did this whole thing start going South that they were wise enough to call in a special prosecutor a moronic special prosecutor but they they they brought in a special prosecutor but they weren't wise enough to keep the original cops out of this um and that's shocking so that's how this whole thing starts going sideways followed by Katz's press conference regarding Mr dass's confession which was outrageous followed by the facts that Katz commits a huge Discovery violation by questioning Bobby dassy during the trial about a a statement that the defense attorney's never heard about before um followed by the defense attorney for Brendan kachinsky absolutely selling him out with the investigator following followed by a series of rulings by the judge that were outrageous one no gag order I mean why prosecutors and defense attorneys are stepping up to cameras after every day of trial is beyond me um and Then followed by what I already mentioned which was Zero corroboration to substantiate the confession this was more than a perfect Stone storm this was an was an absolute disaster uh I know I didn't answer your question but I just had to say those things and so all right then uh how concerned not going to let you off the hook then um How concerned should the public be then about uh police planting evidence and that sort of thing is that something from your experience as a prosecutor I think you said uh he shared with me that you were prosecuted for 25 years yeah I was prosecuted for 24 years most as a Cook County prosecutor and the very end of my career I was a I was a federal prosecutor but you know the reality is most uh police officers and and I think everybody would agree with this most police officers and most prosecutors want to do the right thing the problem is we've just seen too many false confessions and wrongful convictions and I got to tell you for me to say that that's a tough thing to say I mean it was a tough it was a tough thing to uh See the Light it was It Came Upon Me Maybe 16 years ago um but it's just true one um wrongful conviction is one too many and in Cook County alone we've seen dozens uh and throughout the country it goes this isn't just an Illinois problem it's across the country and so to answer your question it is a concern planning EV planning false evidence does it happen yes did do I think it probably happened in in the stasy case yes uh based on the key the key is is inexplicable to me how they missed it seven times and found it on the eth time um the blood I'm not so sure about but to answer your question planning evidence I don't think is a huge problem it's always a concern but taking false confessions which end up in wrongful convictions or misidentifications which end up in wrongful wrongful convictions is a huge problem in this country and it is something for every one of us to be worried about so one of the things I think that is interesting from the song that we heard that kind of picked up on the theme is this of fairness to individuals who are in lower social economic statuses how how much of that plays a part or a role in our criminal justice system now I'll start with uh Dean dris well what you saw in a murderer is you saw um the two best lawyers that stevenh Avery's money could buy um I don't think the fact that they were paid a substantial amount of money would have made a difference both Dean Strang and Jerry buing are just criminal defense attorneys who uh you know at heart and they would have litigated the heck out of this case but it did enable them to get experts um and hire the best experts to work on the case and present um a much stronger defense on step's behalf than what Len kachinsky did for Brendan Len kachinsky was paid $40 an hour to represent Brendan dassi um and that's shameful that that's that's not enough to keep the lights on in most criminal defense attorneys practice they have to lose money to take a case like this and the quality of defense attorneys that you often get at $40 an hour um is pretty atrocious um Brendan would have been much better off if he had the Wisconsin state public defenders office representing him instead of one of these contract attorneys so I think that you know poor people lose poor people lose all at time is really a very apt way of describing what happened to Brendan dassi let's talk about the press conference uh what are the thoughts on having the press conference with so much information coming out uh prior to there being a trial can I take this one you can take this one I see you're eager to answer that one yeah it was outrageous you know I I don't think the Wisconsin State rules are much different than Illinois and in Illinois you can't do that you can't hold a press conference like Katz did and uh lay out all those details which as we now know really weren't laid out in dass's statement they were they were really laid out in the police statements uh you just can't do that and what really bothered me about it is that no judge stepped in the trial judge didn't step in and say what was that all about and admonish him and then issue a gag rule instead it was the opposite both sides came out after that and held press conferences every night after trial and that that didn't help Mr dassi or Avery so as I stated earlier everybody messed up in this case from the defense attorneys to the prosecutors to the police to the judges um nobody stepped up and did the right thing I just in there on that point you know the story that was told during the press conference which was lifted from Brendan's confession which was fed to him by the cops you know I think there's something really tragic about that story that's gone frankly overlooked um in all the making a murderer craze which is that this is a story which all of us I think up here believe couldn't possibly be true this story of of torture of of stabbing and throat cutting and hair cutting and choking and so on and so on sexual assaults um but it's a story that's been presented not only to the people of Wisconsin but to the hallo family as a true account of their loved ones Final hours and I think that's a tragedy that they're laboring under this belief that's been given to them by the prosecutors in this case that that's what happened to her I'm not minimizing what what did happen you know to be murdered is a horrible thing to be shot in the head is a horrible thing but this Narrative of torture that the state has accepted it's it's almost a crime against the halok family to to leave them under that belief if we're just stepping in and taking over from you well actually I got do that I actually had a question okay but I want to just talk about two things so the question about how this the theater of TV differs from the theater of the real world is the one point and then I want to talk about U making electronic recordings law in Wisconsin so people I think what um this Netflix series did is it helped people understand what can go on in an interrogation people didn't have any idea that this is what happened I interview people who have been wrongfully convicted all the time I'm retained on cases where it's a disputed confession all the time one of the things that in adults this happens to adults it's not just a kid thing one of the things that makes it so easy is that people think this isn't how the police police follow rules police should do it in a lawful way and so I think the thing that I like about Mak of a murderer is that it helps people understand how things can happen that's my one point my other point was um picking up on what Steve said people I think mistakenly um fail no people fail to appreciate what kind of resources they can get when they have a public defender's office the person that made it so that all interrogations have to be videotaped the person who actually um took the case to the state uh appell Court was Eileen Hirsch who was a public defender I was a phensic psychologist on that case I testified one of the things that was so great was eileene had behind her and with her not only the clinic here and the research of the clinic here what Steve was great at but also the resources of her office people think if I hire a private attorney then I'm getting something good well in fact you might be but you're going to have to pay allaart for everything you get like if you want an investigator you have to pay for that investigator if you want a psychologist you have to pay for it when you have a public defender in the public defender's office it's not that way for the defendant and I think that that's something that um TV does a poor job at at not accurately portraying what great resources you can get when you're represented by a public defender often so thank you for allowing me to sort of take over there well you have the floor right now and I had a question for you so that's actually ties in really well so can you talk a little bit about this idea that law enforcement went to Brandon dass's classroom they pull them out of the classroom and they bring them into the principal's office what can you talk a little bit about what some of the effects of that would be on him okay so of course I'm not a lawyer but for all you people who are getting credits it should make you think of jdb versus North Carolina because the idea is what happens when you go to the principal's office like let's think about those times that we went to the principal's office you can't just get up in the middle and say I'm out of here you have to stay there okay so this and we think you don't go to the principal's office for something good you go because you're in trouble and I think that shake shapes the whole interaction with the police and it also shaped this idea that was repeated up until the fourth um interaction with the police which is I talk and I get to go right he went home the first time he went on home the second time he went home the third time and sure enough at the end of the fourth time he's like well do I get to go home now and that's not just unique to a person with a low IQ I've interviewed many people where I've where they've said although I told them what they wanted me to tell them that I killed this person I thought I'd have dinner with my parents that night or I thought I'd be able to take my daughter to a soccer game that evening so it's the repeated interaction that starts with the school that I think sets the precedent for him of what to expect it also impairs his ability to appreciate the adversarial nature of what's going on and how it's increasing so I think its impact is great and it's one that's cascading over the his interactions with the police so one of the trends that's happening across the country now are these conviction Integrity units that you're finding in prosecutor offices so independent uh units that are dedicated to reviewing uh allegations of cases of wrongful convictions uh does this suggests that prosecutors have a proactive role in addressing wrong convictions all right Mr Mar uh you know if you prosecutors are let me just back up you know when it comes to taking somebody's Freedom this is what every prosecutor should think about when you take somebody's Freedom it's not like horseshoes it's close doesn't cut it you better get it right and when a prosecutor's office locks somebody up uh they better use the same sense of urgency to fix it if they've locked up the wrong person and that's why these conviction Integrity units or DNA review units whatever you want to call them are so important um every uh major prosecutor's office in this country should should have that unit that goes back and looks at these cases um we started it in Cook County back in the early 2000s we copied it off of San Diego San Diego actually had had that unit and then we opened it up and and we're very successful we actually actually exonerated a number of people over those years um but there's another important component of this and Wisconsin should really start to get it and that is when you're a prosecutor and a potential wrongful conviction is brought to you the adversarial system should end I mean one of the biggest problems about this is you go into court and you're battling and it's it's all adversarial but when you are brought a potential wrongful conviction that has to end and the the prosecutors should work with the defense attorneys to find the truth forget about win or lose let's just get it right and what that's not what you're seeing in this case the fact that Steve and Laura and Tam have brought this to the appell at court and you know to post convictions the appell at court with zero success in light of what we just watched and now they're in the federal court and I bet Tom today is going to win the dassy case and and uh I hope I win that bet and I'm convinced I'm going to win that bet but Bren and dassy will walk he'll get out because he has really good lawyers and because the truth is going to come out this is just too embarrassing um but I but I I hope that uh Wisconsin wakes up and they get in in regards to wrongful convictions uh the adversarial stuff ends and they work shoulder-to-shoulder with the defense bar all right we have about time for one more question and what I'd like to do is I'd like to find out from each of you what your thoughts are on this uh we've received multiple uh questions from the audience uh that are simply asking why wasn't Brandon dass's mother in the interview room uh so uh Dean Dr I want to start with you we'll just go right down the line and get some thoughts on that before we close out so in the state of Wisconsin There's no requirement that a parent be present when a CH when their child is being interrogated that is a requirement in about 12 or 13 states around the country in Wisconsin it is considered a factor that a court may consider in evaluating whether the resulting confession is voluntary or involuntary um but the fact of the matter is is that um Barb Das um who is um somewhat of a pitbull uh in terms of the way she defends her son now was not given information that she needed to have in order to be able to help him back when they were interrogating him police aren't required to inform parents um what the purpose is of the interrogation and in this case these investigators downplay or minimized what they were doing they said we just want to ask Brendan a few questions he'll be back in no time at all call us a little bit later and you can come pick him up and so she gave permission to them to interrogate them and she's had to live with that decision for the past eight or nine years so one thing I want to say is that she should have been there but even if she were there I I'm not confident that she would have been able to adequately protect Brendan police officers are trained to marginalize parents Reed trains them to do that to sit them in a different part of the interrogation room to talk to them beforehand and say please don't interrupt us um so parents are powerless during interrogations when they're present and too often they do more harm than good the reality is is what we need in interrogation rooms are lawyers lawyers need to be there for children not parents you know the only thing I would have to add to that is that one incredibly positive thing to come out of making a murderer and the story of Brendan and the story of Barb his mom is that there are states around the country that are starting to consider making important changes in exactly this issue whether or not a parent or a lawyer needs to be present as a requirement in the interrogation room when it's a kid like Brendan who's being interrogated Tennessee is considering adopting a lot of this effect Rhode Island a bill has been introduced requiring either a parent or ideally an attorney to be present for children like Brendan in the interrogation room California also considering a Bild of that effect you know let's not stop there let's get this moving in Illinois let's get this moving in Wisconsin let's get this moving around the country because we cannot have another Brendan dassy I think that um and I've said this for years I don't think it should be an or parent or an attorney I think it should be an attorney and here's what I think is a good indication of you could call her a pitbull she's probably that when she's on firm ground and understands the playing field right when she doesn't understand what goes on what did we see we saw her ask the police did you pressure him that question is so wonderfully naive that it lets you know that she doesn't understand the adversarial nature that she doesn't understand what's going on she loves their boy that is clear so it's not about love right but it's about whether or not you truly understand and I think so frequently I've seen parents whose understanding of the legal system and of their Miranda rights are sometimes unfortunately at the level of their child because they haven't gone through it themselves remember you see later on in the movie um in the where they're talking about what does the word inconsistent mean he asked the mother the mother's like I don't know what do you think they sort of had this little back and forth right so I'm not sure that she would have been able to um properly advise him and I think that if we see her as a pitbull we don't realize then that this may not be an arena in which she can actually show those skills so I think you really the way to address this is to have an attorney present I've also seen cases where parents were present they told the kids something like you need to talk to the police I want to go home after this I'm sick of being here and the judge said we saw there there was a parent present it's fine so parents being present is certainly not enough and if we stop there this kind of thing will continue to happen I uh I differ slightly with with Steve and Dr cin on that I believe that if had had the mother been in that room they would not have obtained um admissions against his interest those long long delays and when the kid is saying um I didn't do it and they're saying you know they're they're going the head Brendon the head you know come on what happened to the head I believe she would have stopped it and I believe the reason why she wasn't in the room is because they didn't let her in the room I that's what I believe I believe that they knew that the police knew that their odds of obtaining uh admissions from that young man plummeted if she wasn't in the room and so she wasn't told and wasn't invited to the room that's what I believe and then just one last point on that on the confessions taken by those police officers think about it the cops knew they were on tape and they were behaving that way I mean how moronic is that I mean they know the whole world is going to be looking at this someday and they behave that way on tape and to me that's one of the most shocking things of the whole case well well I want to thank the panelists uh tonight for their conversation their input and their insight and I do believe the world is watching the tape okay it takes a village to put a program like this on and it takes a leader to allow the villagers to help us put this program on I want to thank Dean Daniel Rodriguez one more time for his assistance this is always dangerous cuz I know I'm going to leave people out let me apologize in advance I want to thank Darnell Hines and Christine brai from alumni relations and development I want to thank Katrina Peters who's back there and it's met the sound all night I want to thank David Edinger who has been filming this and has been in charge of the cameras for this event um I want to thank Nikki Albertson and Kirsten fortun and and everybody from The Lost School staff who helped put this wonderful event together I want to thank hope rehack who was an assistant to the center on wrongful convictions of Youth I want to thank Dolores Angeles who is my assistant and Lara's assistant and I want to thank Megan crane who is our colleague at the center on wrongful convictions of Youth let's have another hand for SMD in the underground and for all of our panelists as well lastly this is not a fundraiser we did not charge money for you to come here and get this clle credit and we could have charged money as as many of you know Dean Strang and Jerry buing God bless them they're out there they're going on a 40 City Tour talking about making the murder and they're charging $50 up to $100 I just learned that Ken Katz is going on a speaking tour as well and charging a lot of money um but we wanted to open this up to the general public we wanted especially law students to come see it and we wanted a bigger audience so we didn't charge money uh and Dean and Jerry are charging money and they're not even giving out clle and this is this is my reminder to you to please turn in those those clle forms if you are moved if you are inspired by today's program if you want to help the center on wrongful convictions of Youth represent Brendan dassi and other juveniles just like them you can donate to the center on wrongful convictions at our website www.cw.edu Center thank you very [Applause] [Music] much