welcome to neuron noodles neuro feedback and neuros pychology podcast featuring Tech Legend Jake gunkelman he's the man who has read well over a half a million brain scans and Dr Marie swingle author of ey Minds our goal is provide information and promote options for better mental health the neuron noodle podcast is supported by listeners and businesses just like [Laughter] you so uh uh at at the summit we're going to have the live stream and everything that's going out actually going onto the big screen in the bar oh cool so um and we're trying to have people get to their seat before we restart and we're going to be playing musical chairs with with music and when the music is stopped then everybody has to basically be seated and um and uh if you're not you basically have to stay out because we don't uh at that point the you can't play music on live streamed stuff through YouTube because the music would be caught as a violation so the uh the the live stream will cut away to Funky bad that you put in you know in in his place and uh and and you will be back soon and then uh when when everybody is seated and everything kicks back in at that point uh the Music Stops but uh anybody that's not seated basically can hang out out in the bar and and wash it um that'll keep everybody on [Music] schedule well we're going to try we uh they got a playlist apparently and um uh they're they know the precise timing uhhuh uh uh you you've you've got a a a set uh break time uh of like 15 minutes or something and so you you've got three minute 4-minute song to get everybody up and out uh something a little pey and then some some song that everybody knows uh it's a short two three minute song so you got to get to your seat and um they'll the bell in the bar may be rung at the point in time that that you you know you have to sit down right and um anyway uh uh everything is going to be on tablet or computer or phone uh so no no printed program it saves us a couple thousand that we can give for student scholarships instead of printing stuff and it's all all the Powerpoints everything will be available on on the on the online Link that's smart that's really smart then uh may maybe there's an online person there because I believe they can uh people can donate money through the Chats on uh on YouTube if there's Q session rain it down on each year getting better getting better getting better getting better you know well I uh I I really look forward to uh the the group uh getting together and it looks like pretty much everybody has bought a box lunch so that they can hang out uh during the lunch break it it I think it'll uh kind of bond the group as one uh right right kind of big big on mass and having the bar there for happy hour uh is not a bad thing at all you know I agree with that yeah that's my session well you know it's um it people come fresh out uh with content to discuss and um ideas to bounce off each other and you uh and where where do you get to talk to people like that you know I mean who can you talk to about EG in in depth I mean you know my my profession isn't you know the you go to the ball game and so say what do you do you know well uh I specialize in the computer analysis of the Brand's electrical activity huh you know so I can't discuss it with anybody and you know when Durk and I get together we we talk uh deeply about brain function and the kind of foundational mechanisms and you know that uh important discussions so uh and those you don't get to talk like that with somebody who actually knows what they're talking about very often right right no I worth worth every single penny every single second that you spend there and we got to keep the uh the clocks moving keep them on schedule keep them on schedule yep um and Antonio uh Martin Murrow coming over from uh England got some very interesting uh uh infas slow data um uh and and uh looking at uh activity down at you know 06 uh Hertz and um uh interest in prepost uh data um right at at that frequency so it's uh he he's been doing some interesting work using components for feedback and uh that's I think something that's going to be um kind of one of the next steps for some people uh similar to somebody considering doing uh zcore feedback uh the component feedback basically Taps you into the actual component that's deviant and you uh train it you know so uh and and let's say you have a left frontal slow Focus that needs to be trained well that component is not sensitive to eye movement so you you've got a a de artifacted signal by using the component and anyway it's a I think a an idea whose whose time has actually come a long time ago there's you know Julie Anon has published in the area uh uh training deep brain modulators um yeah but um it we we'll see and then Makoto's got some really interesting stuff that looks at the the cortex at various layers and the C and the kinds of cells that are there and the activity uh that's that's happening in it in the basket cells that end up having gamma in them and stuff so it's a uh it should be an interesting meeting oh no doubt no doubt J something in the back of my mind literally the uh cerebellum we don't ever talk about it uh that much I know it's hard to get to and I remember some software was able to get the signal all the way like recently got any any new news on that or care um it it remains uh for those softwares to prove their outcomes and uh that uh remains I mean you've got software that uh the ba basically what they believe is that there's a way to see through the brain uh like it's transparent electromagnetically transparent so that uh ventricles and uh uh white matter and gry matter are all the same density sort of and then uh so you can focus at a distant location and see the activity there but when the generators are local generators that end up having uh a closed loop um that don't have a a directional Vector that they generate um seeing them from outside is uh theoretically not possible historically the cerebellum uh recordings can be done with an electrod side but an electrode on the surface doesn't get a paramal cell signal so uh but there were people in the ner feedback world that kind of went you know uh sub inion uh at the back of the head and thought that they were feeding it back and um you know uh but I you know you're going to pick up some signal off the back of the brain back there but I don't know that it's cerebellum if they if they could figure that out Jay like what what would be the next step for well you know it's not like we don't actually you know the cerebellum by itself wouldn't really be of any interest at all it's how it works with the brain that's really important and so you know where where does it hook in well the basil ganglia so the frontal to Basil ganglia to motor strip uh function is smooth and uh uh the but it's also works up front not just for motor movement and everything but also for aect and and attentional uh so it's it was undervalued a long time as just purely some kind of a shock absorber for your for your motor system so you weren't jerky and tremulous and you didn't overshoot with your grip and you know the and it does all that but it does a lot for other systems but we see that frontally and frontal centrally we tap into the network you don't have to stick an electrode into a spot if you're into the network that's got that in it uh and and that that's ultimately the the the necessity of of uh uh defining it as a spot and thinking you're seeing something from it still is to be proven I mean they're selling the software but the you know the U there there was a an interesting panel discussion and uh santhia kerson had a meeting and uh uh uh Durk myself uh Joel lubar and Bob thater were all on this panel discussion all online and uh you know Cynthia she she throws a hand grenade into the middle of the room room to get the discussion started Jay what do you think about you know SW Letta you know well that's quite a question you know so um I I said well let me start by saying what makes the EEG you know paramal cell uh post preap postoptic potentials added not the not the actual action potential um and it's the summation of those you know they that's they're oriented radially so you pick them up on the surface and um there are deeper structures in the brain that are monopoles that you don't see on the surface and uh uh those are historically uh considered silent from the surface but if you have an electrode in them you can see what's going on and we add to that that that's basically you EEG features but we add to that event related potentials which you know your brain can have a reaction to something and that's an Erp added into the EEG signal uh and then there's slow cortical potentials the slow uh Baseline drift of networks being hooked up and unhooked and that neural network Dynamics is quite often filtered out but it's still part of the EG so if you add all those together you've got the EG um thinking that you can see something that traditionally has not been seen and everybody agreed you had to stick something in there to get it that that's an extraordinary claim and I'd be really tickled pink if it's true but you know extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence so you know I'm I'm still waiting for the extraordinary evidence I have yet to see it uh Durk next and they say what do you think he says well I agree with Jay I haven't seen the evidence and I'd be happy if it were true but I haven't seen the evidence and uh historically uh these structures are uh imagine you're in a football stadium and you're you're on one side of the stadium and everybody on the stadium is roaring and the the the PA system is going and there's a car in the parking lot on the far side with the doors closed and somebody's having a quiet conversation what's the likelihood of hearing that you know that we've got all this noise between us and these very silent features and to say you can hear them is an extraordinary claim so um he He suggests that since you know he puts stimulators into brains all the time I mean that's his he's a neurosurgeon he does that and if you got Parkinson's disease and you you got an advanced Tremor they'll stick a a wire in with a a little chip on it and those chips are much more advanced now than they were uh uh Burst Mode firing on chips was invented by Durk you know nobody did that before him so uh he totally out out of the box and uh well what what frequency did they operate he wanted 600 htz in in these chips so he could record Spike trains and and actually record what's going on at the location of the chip in the brain what are the spike trains doing so when he puts these into the subthalamic nucleus to turn off Parkinson Tremor he can actually record the subthalamic nucleus ah so we've got a little sensor deep in the brain that is a spot that they say that they can see now Durk says so put your electrodes on the top and tell me what I'm seeing you know and and and if you you know if you can do that that that would be U interesting so uh and um the response from uh Bob was well that's awfully small the subthalamic nucleus is awfully small well you're the one who's put it on the list of things you said you could see so is it to small to see or can you see it and you know that uh he backed away from the offer of the proof and anyway they he came up as his turn and he he said well I've got 400 articles from the Library of Congress uh all supporting this and uh Durk said well just a second now I I just published a paper and I I pulled like six 700 papers and and going through those I found like four or five that I could use as references in my publication so which ones of these 400 that you say are in the Library of Congress are you claiming as evidentiary proof uh for your Technique and he showed a couple and Durk said well that that can be interpreted a lot of different ways I mean you can get that outcome in other ways so I so so far not not convincing yeah yeah I I I would be Tickle Pink if if we can do it and um it'll play out I mean science is that way um if you can actually show uh uh uh sarabella uh problems and measure them and um my question if they could if they could hear that room Dr Marie welcome welcome good to see you good to see you we're talking about the Sarah billum I had something in the back of my mind literally the sarb balum and uh we were talking about the new softwares out there that claim that say they can read them and if they can read them Jay doesn't believe it but if they could what kind of things could uh we help autism I've just thrown it out there well we help autism now I the and like I said the cellum interacts through the basil ganglia with the frontal lobe motor strip and frontal lobe affect and a tensal regulation so it isn't like we don't end up working with it we don't assume we've got an electrode in it because we don't and uh to see it from outside uh it's not oriented with parameter cell layers so you can see it from outside and those those that say they can see it from outside are uh making a fairly extraordinary claim um for for EG and now Meg you can see all sorts of activity within it but EEG is not Meg so um and you know the the proof is in the Publications and uh you uh publish uh outcomes based on uh work that you do um uh you're going to have to have uh them published in good journals there's predatory journals out there for those of you who um look at Neuroscience um there's a list of predatory journals called Beal's list be a l BL be's list of predatory journals if it's a predatory Journal a couple of things you'll notice number one their impact factor is usually very low uh quite often below one uh and that means nobody's going to read it and uh if you're publishing that kind of a journal uh meta analysis can't use that publication because the journal quality is too questionable for the respectable journal to accept something that's been published there and quite often you'll see the person who's uh got his publication there also sits on their review board now uh that they they they contact you online and invite you to submit something and oh by the way invitation you get to sit on the editorial board yeah yeah yeah and and you know by the way there's a spe you could do a special edition you know and you'd be the editor of the special edition and you know there um but it's it's a predatory uh deal it's not you know it's not a real science journal and uh th those are out there and uh the people who do the work um if you you know if you've actually done the work and you publish it there you've wasted your time publishing it there and and once you've published it there you can't publish it somewhere else you can't dual publish the same content so um pick you know pick the journal that you're going to publish in and and make it a respectable journal and uh you know they they may go back and forth with you about the writing and so forth but it's worth the it's worth it to get into a journal that is going to be seen you you know impact factor 2 3 four six you know you you've got major viewership and uh the impact factor is just that I mean what's the impact going to be thud you know uh and you put it into a journal with less than an impact factor one it's a thud you know no nobody saw it U anyway what are the top journals then what are the top three subjectively you know for for let's say you're looking for a journal that's open to neuro feedback and egq uh there there's uh the the ecns uh EEG and clinical Neuroscience Society has the clinical EEG and neurophysiology uh uh Journal as uh as a their kind of associated Journal uh APB has the APB uh not just Skip One a and you got the acronym for the journal uh applied psychophysiology and bi feedback that's the journal uh they also have kind of a um magazine like Journal it's still peer reviewed but it's it's bio biof feedback and um that that's a perfectly good uh Journal it actually has a good impact factor um uh um isnr has uh theirs which is an an open source um uh Journal which uh is is one one of the kinds of things that happens in Predator journals a lot of them are open source so when when isnr went their own way when uh their their publisher basically took over um the publication and um they they didn't have access to control of anything so they they basically uh split up and set up their own open source Journal it it's it's actually got some viewership now so it they they end up having to kind of prove themselves with their track record that um open source can be a mistake but uh it can be done well as well what uh if I threw out the cerebellum like what do you think we will like what's the Titanic out there what are we going to find in the brain that is going to help take whatever symptoms and alleviate them you know we already see so much from the cortex if you know what you're looking at you can work with almost anything out there we work with intractable epilepsy where people are having hundreds of seizures a day are out of control doctors can't help them with medications and we train them how to not have seizures and be off all meds and now seizure free medfree for years um we we take people with Autism where they can't speak and are unable to make eye contact I mean just what you would consider full autism now the dsm5 got rid of the Aspergers category I thought that was actually useful at one point um but that the um the those kind kinds of um diagnoses are based on behavioral presentation and with training of the brain you can end up getting things working well enough so that you can no longer be diagnosed as autistic now uh you can't catch it so you can't cure it uh but you can train somebody to operate their brain to the point where they're not diagnosable as something that's wrong like that uh we can work with anxiety we can work with uh affective uh disregulation uh um uh schizophrenia is an iffy uh thing it's uh there there's there's not a lot of ultimate success in that area um there is uh amazing success with enhanced function for people that are usually considered untrainable uh Down syndrome and severely uh uh developmentally delayed uh kids so here I think one of the the errors that we're we consistently make is we're looking for the Holy Grail I mean I don't think there is a Holy Grail um but I think what uniformly we can do and and and Jay has Al already mentioned a couple of the areas where we're still a bit stuck in terms of helping folks but you know literally we can train therefore we can improve almost all states and traits that are exhibited uh through signatures in the EEG I mean it's really that simple you know again qualif you know caveat qualifier if you know what you're doing right so if you have educated yourself in such a way that you can recognize the signatures and that you know how to Target them and I think we're getting more and more refined I'm going to be a little bit biased um you know people who really know what they're doing are getting significantly more refined people who don't bother to learn how to do this are are going I don't want to say Global but they're just kind of doing the wiggle jiggle um just just trying to shift everything at the same time and sure those programs kind of do something you know you shake things up a little bit but that the power I think is in the the excl ex you know exclusive ability to read the raw EEG and the conversions um and then targeting uh based on the symptoms that you see but I think um you know talking about what what Jay is was referring to um I would love to see within my lifetime if we can really get after certain forms of psychosis and schizophrenia again we can quiet a little bit um and many of us are really proud of the little bit we can do uh but for example the breakthroughs that we've made in autism um again it's it's a neuro atypicality um you know we don't cure it as Jay said but we can really refine some of the behavior so quality of life goes up for the individual and everyone around them schizoph the The psychosis we can dampen it a bit J do you have any um hope in that area is anybody working on this and finding some some some of the issues that are off in psychosis are sympathetic parasympathetic balance issues uh they're sympathetically over aroused to the point that they're uh kind of out of control and uh that's controlled in the insula and you can train the insula if you know what you're doing yes somebody asked me well what electrode is sitting over the insula and I said well the electrod sitting over the insula doesn't record it at all uh because it's shooting its Vector is lateral underneath it C3 and C4 kind of sit over top of it but you know if it's shooting back and forth underneath it there's no radial current source and we don't see it in EG so but you get if you know what's a farfield phase reversal you see between the temporal and the vertex you see a phase reversal and and that's a reliable phaser R so you can do a source localization and it shows you the insula it it also can be responsible for um um un uh diagnosable uh chronic abdominal pain or distress uh uh we've actually got a talk at the cisson summit this year by Greg sharbono uh U and we we had a a case and he had uh an insula signature and he had abdominal problems but that wasn't the intention of the training we he also had some other stuff going on and when we trained and and normalized the insula this chronic problem of gastrointestinal pain went away he had a g a GI specialist out in Seattle who kind of you know now after all these years now the thing we couldn't figure out is gone yeah I want to talk to the doctor that you were working with so he talked and Greg talked about the insulin it's implication that how how it's tied into the GI system and everything and you know all that made sense and you know the proof is in the pudding and the the guy got better with insul training time goes by pretty soon the GI guy has another fellow that they can't you know they scope up one side down the other they poke around here and there they can't find anything wrong but there's chronic distress and so he contacted Greg and said you know I've got another guy who we can't find anything inside can you do that thing you do uh on the head and uh see if this guy's got one of those things and sure enough uh the insula was off in this guy as well and so GRE Gregs had a series of these and the the GI uh a specialist is just blown away by uh essentially the the commonality of uh GI symptom and um and the insula uh if you look in the literature you'll find Crohn's disease oh Crohn's everybody that's an abdominal problem well there's a connectivity change in the insula uh uh uh the old term abdominal epilepsy it's an archaic term it's not part of the international classification system it was very descriptive uh what you have is a smooth muscle contraction well what controls the peristalsis the posterior insula so if you have a discharge in the Sylvan Fisher posterior insula temporal area it can end up causing a spasm intestinally that's painful you know and at that point uh you can have uh vasovagal Syncopy because of the pain but you that's abdominal epilepsy and there's there's literature out there that still talks about that um you know it's an archaic term but it it sneaks back in because it's so damn descriptive and uh anyway we we can treat all of this uh and and we can treat it with relatively older approaches but there's also newer approaches that seem to have uh uh some interesting validity uh um let's say we're trying to focus on something left frontally and it's a very slow focus and but we want to train it well the training is going to be full of eye blinks it's it this is going to be Hell on Wheels to try and train that because the person's eyes are the dominant signal an a component can focus on the signal and be insensitive to the artifact it's a spatial temporal filter and it focuses on the component not the ongoing other signals so uh we're we're uh Antonio Martin's Murrow is coming over from England he's going to be showing some interesting ICA based feedback uh techniques um and also showing uh infr slow infr low frequency um pre-post 0.6 Hertz uh uh signal change after uh after train after treatment so he you know very interesting uh uh DC or very low frequency U uh content is as as well as higher frequency content depending upon what components you end up having to use anyways it we're we're trying to um uh bring some interesting folks from around the world Yuri's going to pop in for the summit and you know that's always interesting um uh I've got a picture of Yuri and I in Australia at Point danger with the sign in between us Point danger and so it's a dangerous point when the two of us get together you know so uh I request that picture please uh I'll I'll I'll I'll try and dig up that that picture for you um anyway we go Yuri and I go back a long ways um he was um elected the president of the um European chapter of isnr when that was being formed initially uh in 2000 and uh we lectured together in 20201 in Portugal and I introduced him to to the I uh uh asked him are you using I to take out IM movement out of your data and he said oh we tried PCA and it just doesn't work uh so I said well there's this spatially constrained independent component analysis paper from uh Schwarz computational Scott mck and you showed him the paper uh and two weeks later I had a software with it implemented in it um and he he actually you know I I thought of it as a way to take out artifact I I didn't really see it for what it really could do which is to identify the components that make up the EG not the artifacts but the eug itself and he got the Russian well the Soviet Union prize for science it became the Russian prize for science but he got it for using the A on Erp and EEG and the database and all that so uh we we've been uh very good friends um and uh and and we've lectured together a whole bunch at times in Australia and here in the US as well you brought up you brought up the uh the abdomen and um vagal nerve how does that play a role in what people try to do with neuro feedback what is it what does it do uh does it connect things with the brain and the gut like what's going on with that yeah and in fact uh not just brain and gut but also so brain and heart you know and um let's let's say uh you're a psychiatrist and you bought into the TMS world and uh you plunk down your $250,000 and you got your big chair with a big magnet that you can point at their head and uh you you you're going to find a spot that makes the fingers twitch uh but you know right right hand finger twitch from the left uh motor strip and then they go forward from there to try and find the right spot well if it is the right spot and they pulse it you'll get a cardiac deceleration you've just stimulated the vagal nerve Network left frontally and you'll decelerate the heart and it turns out that if you simulate with too much power you'll decelerate the heart more than it should be decelerated uh so you can start to titrate the dose of the TMS based on the cardiac deceleration and so U Martin ARS found the fact that the heart decelerated I mean you got to look at the heart and the stimulation at the same time and I mean he was looking at it and he saw the deceleration he replicated it with a handful of people and then they actually did a study and now it's a it's a major uh aspect of the research in TMS so um but yeah a vagal nerve you can get at it you know it runs down through you see some things that you clip around the neck and they stimulate at the vagal nerve and um you know uh not one size fits all the vagal nerve stimulation may end up being fine for some people but probably really really really a bad idea for others and um you you should be chatting with somebody who knows a fair bit about Neuroscience before you just go strapping on a veal nerve stimulator uh that there there are things um to kind of calm and stabilize but you can end up having difficulties as well uh people that have had trauma sometimes have a dissociation not not necessarily a great outcome um depersonalization derealization depers you know the detached uh um uh unreal perception so you you you know it's it's not you don't just kick it and see what happens you know uh uh you you have every right to just kick it and see what happens no get me wrong it's your Noggin and if you want to do something with it it's yours to do with it but you know don't expect uh always to have the right thing happen without having people that know what they're doing consult with what you're considering and uh even then you know unless you have a a good workup uh to know what's going on in there um you know you you don't know which Tire to kick unless you actually look you know you said my peace for me Jay I can stay quiet all day but actually it is really important to know that that there are a lot of you know stimulators that you can get out there you know in the wellness product classification and um you know the vagel nerve or Vegas nerve is really hot and cool now um but as Jay said you know there's one there's a difference between calming and stabilizing um and you know decelerating the heart to extent that you could could have issues and I think that's something that we always always have to Hound home so you're not the TMS magnet literally can drop it down to 40 beats a minute if you do too much stimulation right at the right spot and that's not a healthy frequency for a heart rate you know at at 40 beats a minute the you're bradaric to the point where some people it's not sufficient and there are people that have historically found people passing out in the chair and they wonder why well they hypothesize might have been epileptiform discharge or something well you could have decelerated the heart and had Syncopy for goodness sake the the the until they found out that was an effect there wasn't any way to end up avoiding the issue but you got to look at the heart rate at the same time as you're doing your stem so when people faint that's is that what's happening the Vegas nerve plays a role in it it's not something you're training I'm just trying to figure out what's going on with it that people are having sys Syncopy can be V vasovagal with some some kind of vagus nerve uh vagal uh uh uh uh usually pain intestinal pain real intense uh uh sometimes uh other other things uh but vasovagal Syncopy you you you pass out from that now you can pass out from other things too I mean epileptiform discharges you can pass out uh you can pass out from electrolyte imbalances and heart rhythm issues I mean there's so many things um uh but when when somebody has passed out the the big duel uh to figure out what's going on is the heart and the brain and um if they've passed out and they have an irregular heartbeat you've got your problem kind of spotted and you you got to focus in on getting that fixed if the heart is ticking like nobody's business and everything's fine uh you've got to start to look at the possibility of Syncopy from uh blood pressure dropping out which usually the heart would end up being a reflection of that uh but um people pass out from discharges and um drop seizures where they just collapse you know that that's a frontal uh uh discharge so um not not not every SLE spell uh is uh due to epilep from discharges you can have a snable spell from electrolyte imbalance uh quite often dehydration uh electrolyte imbalance ends up being a common source of Syncopy little too much alcohol helps as well yeah uh go that was sarcastic for anybody go to go to Phoenix where it's 112 degrees or some damn thing today and the humidity is like negative you know it sucks humidity out of you and so you got to drink more than usual and you drink alcohol which tends to dehydrate you slightly anyway and um and the next thing you know uh people pass out not because they drank too much but because they dehydrated and uh they may fall over and twitch and somebody thinks it's a seizure it's it's a sinkable spell and then you know they get them to the hospital they put a bag of D5W up hanging and they're back on their feet in a half hour and back back to the meeting you know so um again we're not we're not MDS here so I have to qualify but another very simple one is insufficient salt in the system and you have polarized salt consumption all the processed foods are loaded and then individuals who are very careful about the salt very frequently don't have enough and they can easily get these electrolyte imbalances yeah uh I have diabetes and CPUs which doesn't have anything to do with sugar this is the real thing diabetes no control of your kidney function so water goes through me and carries with it all the electrolytes and I have to drink water and drink water and drink water and drink water and people that have been at the cisson summit realize there's somebody usually assigned to every 10 minutes or so catch my attention you drink drink some water you know so to try to keep me hydrated uh because I'll I'll forget about it I'll I'll get off onto a trip about something and forget about my hydration so um but if I drink too much water without balancing things then I don't have enough potassium sodium goes out more potassium is lost as well but um hypokalemia ends up giving you cardiac problems so when I notice my heart's going funny I know that I've missed my salts and I've got a tablet of salt sitting over here next I've got meds and Arms Reach over here so um anyway yeah have have to balance that out and the the common ways that people who don't have a pituitary die are cardiac problems from lot not maintaining proper salt balance or catching a cold just you catch a cold you don't realize that you caught a cold because you're own steroid suppressing your inflammatory response and you go to bed at at a lower steroid level at night than during the day when you start in the morning at breakfast of champions you take your steroids you know so um but you go to bed without having increased your steroid dose and you didn't know that your lungs were about to fill up with fluid so you you go to bed and hej you're starting to get a bit morbid here well it just one of those days that what are you gonna do with this program I don't know all all of the crazy imbalances that can end up happening you know yeah so I um it there's a reason that they only give you an average of 10 years if you don't have a pituitary because it's it's a it's a difficult circumstance maintaining everything in a balance you know you're juggling maybe six seven meds if one of them goes out of balance you can't stop juggling you can't go to the lab and get a test to tell you what's off you got to make the right guess if you make the wrong guess you can make yourself even worse so well they keep on making the right guess and proving them wrong yeah so far I've been lucky enough uh the few times I've made the wrong guess and and uh you know I I had folks that were intact enough to uh to put me back together for it um yeah so anyway I've I've loed out for 34 years uh going on 35 and uh from an average of 10 for males only seven for females your hormone systems are a lot more complex than mine you know uh and and now that I don't have any um except those that I take so so so p p what about uh magnesium yeah that that's not one that's lost as badly but it is you know and and the the salts that I've got here end up having uh uh potassium heavy uh a little bit of sodium U magnesium know Trace trace minerals I mean mental health podcast not so much nutrition but we do dabble into it but uh if you take all there uh Pete in terms of how I really feel a lot of psychologists therapists Etc should very much inform themselves on magnesium okay um magnesium deficiency uh is highly implicated in so many um symptoms um any anything from insomnia anxiety restless leg syndrome all kinds of things and again qualify I'm not an MD okay U but there are some basic basic things um vitamin D magnesium the the be family if people enjoy a little bit of alcohol um and then of course other things that need to balance those things out but uh and iron as well iron is huge um and people a lot of Fe um menopausal female forget about iron they kind of feel I'm not minrating anymore I don't have to worry about this anymore uh but again iron in terms of everybody thinks about fatigue but also in terms of anxiety um we're very complex beings and I think having a a good base knowledge and and complimentary um um I was going to say nutrition I'm not huge on on supplements um um you know I like to say in most of North America we're overfed and undernourished um and then we we throw out a lot of supplements and Jay probably knows significantly more than than I do just based on what he was talking about before but you know in terms of how the body metabolizes uh pills uh versus uh nutrients and and complex forms you know like your your iron and your lentils versus a pill lentils will not give you constipation you know taking um an iron pill will give you constipation you know we can kind of go down the you know the uh the list of things but uh yeah having either some basic knowledge yourself to to ask your your clients to check up on or having a good alliance with somebody who's not selling supplements can be really really positive very expensive urine yeah yeah actually you know let's get into a little bit of that humor if you're taking all kinds of supplements and you're well hydrated and and your your pea is shall we say tinted uh yeah exactly very expensive urine right and and in terms of the water filtration the little fishies and people are really getting a lot of vitamins that they don't need if you're taking things to an extreme you can end up with um fat soluble that end up building up and being a problem yeah vitamin A and yeah that that that can be a big problem yeah well you just see all these supplement stores and these people that are lining up all their pills and I'm just looking at it just can't like a multivitamin just take care of that I mean how can you go past 100% I don't know I I get kind of oldfashioned and judgmental on this type of stuff if if you kind of regulate what you put into your body um and you get a little bit of political in terms of how quickly the food goes from field to to to table you don't have a lot of these issues now I'm not saying don't have a bag of chips and some chocolate cake here here and there I mean that's that's not the issue we're talking about but it's this massive overprocess um and nutrition takes far too long from from source to consumption that a lot of the value um is lost I mean I'm talking also here about uh under ripened um uh food there's just you don't get the nutritional value you know I can go on and on and on about this and this is where um Europe is refusing to adopt many many of the errors that that uh that North America has made and I think it it it grossly affects mental health I mean we can see literally on the bodies what it's doing I I think we're in a culture of underweight people and overweight people I think very very few at weight or or or balanced uh individuals uh and that should say a lot we we've lost a lot of not just our knowledge but our common sense in terms of what we choose to put in our bodies we do have a good time of year in North America right now of farmers markets yes and a farmers market uh go in and tried to find lots of different colors um the they they say having a wide variety of colors ends up kind of guaranteeing uh that you're going to have a wide variety of uh substances that that you're consuming so the basic thing is you know if the produce that you buy is still good in five days then it didn't hold the nutrition it it should be at its Tipping Point that's the perfect time to actually consume things if I could digress a little bit when when I was living in uh Italy as a younger woman uh you know you go into the shop and the person uh you would never pick out your own things they would pick the things out for you and they'd always pick the ripest things first unless you said this is for tomorrow's dinner not today's um so you know don't even talk about the the um the product waste or the the food waste just wasn't there using it that way but people have better nutrition um so yeah lots of things you know and we just we talk about mental health we talk about uh Pharmaceuticals we talk about the training that we do but you need to be doing or you should be let me qualify you should be doing or you can do a lot of other things to improve the the outcomes of of self and therapies whether they're EEG or otherwise and we're at supplements well we're at time and just waiting like five years when OIC is uh more readily available uh everybody is on it and they're they're losing weight they are losing weight G difficulty is muscle mass loss as well and that's going to end up I think being one of the negative things associated with it if you yo-yo and all you're doing is fat yo-yo and you don't not losing muscle in your yo-yo it's not that I mean you're up and down but if you go down and lose muscle mass uh that you you know that you're losing the ability to burn and that's that that's a fatal loss of function so let's put here as well um you know individuals I would say over 3540 boy oh boy are you going to be affecting your your your Elder years if you play that game hugely so Dr Marie swingle Jay gunan another whipped up episode of the neuron noodle neur podcast have a great weekend all okay bye bye all right bye bye the neuron noodle podcast is supported by 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