Transcript for:
Bono's Musical Journey and Insights

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day. Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. Oh, I [ __ ] loved the film. It was really great. You saw it? Watched it last night. Yeah. It was cool, too, because I always feel special when I got to enter in the password because I know that nobody else has seen it yet. You know, I got to enter in the email and the password and I watched it and I screen mirrored it on the TV. It was great, man. And it's it was so uh like almost like a fever dream. It was wild like the way you set it up. All black and white. You get past the first three minutes. I could even my own mates are like, "Oh, don't do that." It's like wow. And it is like a fever dream. Yes. That opening. But that really happened to me. So yeah, it was great, man. It's great. And it's also like I love the way you did it. Like you played the beginning of some songs and you talked about the origin of the songs. The thing that I have a hard time believing though is that you weren't a good singer when you were young. Well, you know, punk rock, you're a bit of a shout. You know, that's really what you do. You just get up there and shout. You I'm shouting at God. I'm shouting at everyone. I'm shouting at the band. That scene in the in when we're doing I will follow. Yeah, that's really true. So, I'm there and we're improvising this song that becomes I will follow. If you walk away, walk away, walk away. And it's like this. Wow. We're trying to get some just do something original and we're really ripping off the irony is we're really ripping off Public Image Limited. This Johnny Rotten became John Leiden again for this band called Public Image Limited back in the late '7s. And I'm singing about, you know, it's a suicide note really. And I'm singing about this and they're saying like, "What's it about?" And I said, "I think it's this it's this guy who's going to follow somebody into the grave. You know, they're going to It's I think it's about a It's It's a It's a child following their mother, missing them so much that he'll follow them into the grave. Whoa. And then we realize that our our our rehearsal room, the little yellow house, is beside the cemetery where my mother is buried. And I have never visited her once or talked about her once. And we're we've been rehearsing there for months. And it's funny, you know, you can deny somebody in conversation, you can deny somebody to yourself, but in the songs, all that [ __ ] comes out. Wow. Wow. Yeah. But thank you for watching it. That's That's I loved it. Thank you. It It was such an interesting way you put it all together. I've never seen anybody do that like that. like you did like it's like a documentation of your career but in this like very unique way with like talking about things and explaining these moments and then the music plays. It's and it's all black and white. It was really cool. Yeah, there's a there's a sort of black and white lends it a kind of clarity. I did this series of shows in the the Beacon uh theater in New York and and it was going so well we thought we should record it. I will tell you the night before we opened our show in New York, my Mrs. Ally said, "I don't think you should do this. Just please please do not do this to yourself in front of, you know, a New York crowd. Cancel it now. do what most people do on a book tour, get somebody to interview them and just they'll come anyway. Everyone will be happy. And I don't know, I just went for once. I I didn't take her sage advice. And I I did it. And the difference was with an audience, it was funny. And she was like, "Oh, that's the bit I didn't get in the rehearsals. It's funny." Oh. So, what was she thinking? It was I thought it was dull, self-indulgent. Here you are. I mean all these things are a version of let me here's another great thing about me. No, I I mean it is a I was calling it a memewir me what I wrote myself. It's the memoir and it is look there's something narcissistic and but it's it's your material you know that's what you get your you know your it's not just your body your psychology is the canvas and you know I grew up John Lennon you know the Beatles were everything for me and you know John Lennon made a sort of performance art out of his wedding to Yoko and he did a bed in for peace and he was ready to look ridiculous for peace and you know I do ridiculous is quite well, I'm told. So, that was my definition, you know, of of art really. Yeah. Was to just just go out there. But the thing that being in you two, it was just given me everything took away, if it took away anything, was, you know, people don't come along to our shows for a belly laugh. You know what I mean? Right. Right. So, as a comedian, you understand that, you know, it's it's like I, you know, I wrote this line. I came out of nowhere. I haven't put it in a song yet, I don't think. But, you know, I think it's um laughter is the evidence of freedom. And I don't talk I don't trust people talk about freedom now. I want people to be free. If you are if you talk be it then be it. Yeah. And and so I wanted to be that on stage. I wanted to be loose. I wanted to be myself. I wanted to own up to the ridiculousness of my life. As I've just explained, the madness of my family, but turns out it's everyone's family is a little opera. And it is a bit of a soap opera, but it's also also a a real opera. These are big feelings. you know, you're going after your dad like you're like a young what, you know, elk is a romantic word for it, but it's, you know, you're just taking them on. Yeah. And this poor man is just he's lost his his wife. He's trying to bring up two kids. I'm just an obnoxious kind of thing who some somehow psychologically blames him for the death of my mother. Because as Jim Sheran says to me, it doesn't have to be actually true to be psychologically true. And that kids feel all these feelings, you know, they don't have to be logical. And and I went after my dad and I by playing him every night in in the Beacon Theater and around the world, I actually learned to to love him. Uh, I learned to like him. Actually, I always loved him, but I learned to like him. That was He made me laugh more. So, I got humor. Humor was the gift from that show. And And the humor was evident with the audience there. Yeah. But not evident when my business came, which is why she wanted to pull the plug. Well, rehearsals are hard. It's also hard when someone is too close to you. They're there with you every day. Like this is true with comedy as well. Like if someone sees your act too many times, like if someone's traveling with you, like if my wife went to see my shows all the time, there's parts of it she'd be like, "Oh, don't do that. Oh, don't do this. Oh, like that's not like you get too close to it. Like she's too close to you." But to see it with fresh eyes, like to see it in front of that audience, the joy that they have when the music starts playing, when some of the songs that they love, it's amazing. Like you could feel it in the show. It's like the the pure joy when they get so cuz the people that came to see it were hardcore fans. Well, the one what happened was Andrew Dominic, Australian director, and he did some of the the the shots without any audience, just he cleared them out on a day off. And then some of them came in which were hardcore fans as you say. And that was in a way that was that was that was the most terrifying. Um because I as a performer I'm drawn to spontaneous acts. That's what when we started out as a band, I was attracted to performers who I thought might leave the stage, right, and follow me home, mug me or, you know, you know, tell my fortune or, you know, whatever. Wild people. Well, just Yeah. I mean, and I'm still attract Iggy Pop when I was growing up was the, you know, Patty Smith. I Patty Smith used to enter the stage elbowing her way through the crowd. Myself and Larry Mullen, drummer in two. We we left stage one night in a like when we were like 21 20 years old, elbing our way through through the crowd to get out. Just got into a taxi in London, [ __ ] off and and we felt a liberation. You breaking the fourth wall is been everything for our bands. trying to smash it by surfing it. Um, you know, by by jumping into the crowd. I had the um preposterous moment of going into a crowd in the in Los Angeles, I forget, the forum or somewhere like that with the white flag, right? The nonviolent white flag. the same flag that I'm still on about the flag of surrender right in that show but back then I'm 23 or whatever and I'm going into the crowd and I see people who are you know pulling at me and all that and next thing I I'm throwing a punch somebody in our own in our own audience that's how much nonviolence meant to me you that you know but I I'm a I'm attracted to feral performers I suppose there's a word for it. It's just it's it's you're in it and you're not fully in control of it, right? And Mark Ryland is a great one. Daniel D. Lewis walked off stage one night, saw a ghost of his father rumor had it when he was playing Hamlet. But yeah, so having the crowd in who knew what was going to happen, that unnerves me a bit because I how do I surprise them? Turns out by making I I became a sitdown comic. Is that if you're a stand-up for a minute a minute? I was a sit down comedian. Well, what you were doing and what I think what you're saying that you're attracted to is something that's not contrived. Something that's pure. It could be messy. Could be wild. It could be, you know, Patty Smith elbowing people or you running through the crowds. There's it's it's real. And there's so much in this world that's not real. There's so much that's manufactured. There's so much that's produced and run through a focus group. And there's so there's so much that doesn't resonate like you don't feel it as a piece of art. You don't feel it as like a real person pouring out their emotions and their soul. But great music, you feel it. It gets into you. It gets into your cells. You know, it's a and no one can figure out how it works or why it works or why this does and this doesn't and why does Johnny Cash have such a [ __ ] cool voice. Like it's what is it? What what is it? Like but that there's something about real that's just it's like a vitamin. It's like going out in the sun when it's been raining like ah like you you soak it in. Yeah, it is. You know, I mean, you can there's pretentious ways to describe and then people say it's we we first sang to each other before we spoke, you know, like like bird song. I don't know who said that. It's probably on drugs, but but could have been a scientist and um anthropology might suggest we certainly the goats on you go back to Greek tragedy, you had a drum and a voice. So, it's very primal. Yeah. And and there is it is the language of the spirit. It we we it it is somehow there is worship involved whether it's God, nature, money, a extraordinary woman has just walked across the street. But it seems to be that music is where we are creatures of uh awe. Yes. And and wonder and and and you know, you mentioned Johnny Cash, I had I had the blessing in my life of of getting to know him. And as a believer, I don't know if you know, I I'm a believer. I'm I'm just not a very good one. But he there was no not a pious bone in his body. And and I learned that about the company he would choose. He didn't like he he got nervous around people who were too self-righteous. And he had this huge spirit in him, you know, prayerful spirit. Myself and Adam Clayton were were um driving through America, I think around the time of the Joshua Tree, and I'd met Johnny couple years. He said, you know, I found out where he where he lived. He had a zoo in Nashville. He had a house in Nashville. And we go into to to meet June and his Mrs. and and Johnny. And and he shows us this table's filled with plates of like I'm like, "Wow, we're coming. We're just the two of us." She said, "No, honey, that's my cookbook. I'm just doing a photo shoot for my cookbook. We're in here, you know, we're having a So, we go into their kitchen and we sat there, myself and Adam, and uh and Johnny goes, "Shall shall we pray?" And uh Adam's wasn't a praying type at that at that time, but he was like, "It's Johnny Cash." So, you know, you have to pray. We all held hands, whatever. And Johnny Cash made this beautiful poetic blessing. And I I just thought like, wow, of course he is touched. And then he just turned to Adam and just goes, "Sure miss the drugs though." And Adam just fell in love with him, you know, because he couldn't be pious, right? He just he had to be himself. Yeah. Um years later, if it's years later and we really Oh, wow. There you go. Oh, that's so Oh my god. There it is. That's Adam there. Yeah. Yeah. He looks like he might have had a few tequilas and and I don't know, but Oh, wow. And I'm giving it the arty poetic face. I am a p like you are. And um I call I heard I heard he was um I heard he was in trouble. He was was very ill years later than this. And I called uh I called up and and June answered the phone. Excuse the poor Texas accent, all you Texans out there. But she was like, or Nashville in her case. She was like, "Oh, Bo, wow. Thank you for calling. It's so good to hear from you. How's Dublin? How's Alley? How's the Burlington? This is a hotel, right?" And I'm like, "Great." and we're talking, you know, phrases with with uh with June. She said, "What's going on with this?" And I'm going, "What's going on?" I said, "Look," eventually I said, "Look, June, I'm just I'm just calling because I heard John wasn't well and I just I just want you wanted him to know and that we're thinking about him." She said, "Oh, honey, we're in bed. He's right beside me." And he hands me the phone or she hands him the phone. He goes, "Sorry about that. And I'm fine. And uh and bless her. Um actually June passed away first and and Johnny called Rick Rubin and those American recordings were were a result of a conversation he had with Rick Rubin where he said, "Please will you work with me because if you don't, I will die." Wow. And that's what if you hear those American recordings um amazing version of 9in nails um hurt hurt did a version of one also to pesh mode's personal Jesus I mean it's just what a voice are you a fan of of of of Johnny Cash what's what's your I used to have a dog named Johnny Cash does the dog bite no he's not anymore he's dead he was he didn't bite when he was alive he was a nice dog it's just have I had a habit of naming my dogs after famous singers. Wow. We have a dog called Lemie. Oh, wow. Named after Lei from Mother. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. It's a girl though. I think she resents it. Yeah. I had a dog named Frank Sinatra and uh Marshall is named after Eminem. Oh man. Well, they're two incredible people. Um don't get me started on on Frank Sinatra because um How long is this, by the way? The as long as we want to go. Well, no, because why? Well, just Frank, if there's two questions, one of them shouldn't be Frank Sinatra because I I just I can go on and on on I learned so much from him and I got to know him and as bizarre as that sounds, um he's such a name dropper, Frank. Um, no, but uh I did and probably if you're interested in singing, I could tell you one miracle that I learned from Frank Sinatra, which is a version of of my way and the original version, you know, it's a boast and years later he sang it and I have a copy of it. It's um and Pavarati stars in the film as you know I I play him for for a moment but it's a version of my way with I mean Pavarati is the greatest singer on earth but shouldn't sing in English friends I do it now you don't want you don't want that and so I have a version of it with without the greatest singer in the history of the world Pavarati on it it's just Frank singing 20 years after he'd sung My Way as a boast. Same key, same text, same arrangement and now it's an apology. Wow. And that's a that's a thing about singing and Johnny Cash had that and you know I I I wish I aspired to the place when my voice to try and answer your first question when I become a singer that can do that. Sinatra, most people don't realize, had a completely different voice when he was younger. His voice when he was younger, was very high-pitched and beautiful and had so much flexibility to it and so much tone. And then probably all the cigarettes and Jack Daniels over the years sort of hardened his voice. M skinny kid. He he used to he used to swim underwater to ex to get his lung expanded so he could get those bigger bigger bigger. Yeah. And we have his mug shot out there. He got arrested. He was like 125 pounds. Wow. Yeah. He got arrested for um what was the term this seduction? I think it was seduction. I think he seduced a married woman. Yeah. Oh my lord. Yeah. There he is. Oh, look at that. Well, he said I'm the only He said you're the only I don't know if he said cat. He said I certainly didn't say dude. He said you're the only something with a who wears an earring that I'm ever going to like. You're the only cat with an earring that I'm never going to. And and I did I had a if we're going to talk about singers, you have to talk about Sinatra. I had extraordinary times with him. Um, he used to send us sent me gifts every year. I have a gold and sapphire Cartier watch he sent me. Oh, wow. With with Francis Albert on the, you know, got um just every year he would send stuff. And because we did a a duet together on his first duets album, I've got you got you under my skin. Um although our we had a our management received I hope this is not I'm not being I'm in awe of Japan so don't please don't take this as a as a as a as a as a as a cruel joke but we did get from a a um it was a it was a fax back then from Nip on EMI saying we hear that Bono has done a duet with a Mr. Frank Sonalta called I've Got You Under My Chicken. And that's just the great Austin translation the great surrealist anthem of all time. Um but yeah, for me that was a an unusual relationship and I if I asked myself why I would go after these great singers that perhaps people of my own generation had moved on from but I hadn't. There was a part of me that wanted the blessing of an of the older generation and probably the male. I didn't really by now the bit of age I realized I didn't have the sense to go after the same with women but I was looking for my father in them you know whether it was Willie Nelson you know whether you know Bob Dylan Frank Sinatra Pavar all these people I mean I I would they I kind of I became their students really and the band would be like yeah And and I'm going yeah and there's so much for me to learn from these people. So much for all of us to learn. These are extraordinary for a reason. Sinatra had, you know, incredible sense of humor and and great timing. He what I learned from him was he he read the the the the text of the song like an actor. So he would learn it as an actor would learn a part. Then he would on the piano he'd kind of roughly with his, you know, pianist, he'd figure out where where to be in the bar and all of that. And then when he went into the orchestra to meet them, you know, Nelson Riddle or whatever, you actually hear him, you hear Frank Sinatra hearing the song in its full arrangement for the first time as he's singing it. And that's it's fresh paint, you know. It's like any painter will tell you that's just the it's like Francis Bacon. It's just that first stroke or first touch football, the great players where the ball lands at their feet, they don't stop it and pass it. They they they pass it as they stop it. It's it's it's really a very high level of of artistry and and he had that. I learned that from him. I learned lots of other things. I also tried to drink with him um on a few occasions which did not work out well uh for me. Was it surreal when you were a young man and you were just starting to achieve success to encounter these people that were essentially heroes and be embraced by them and hang around them? You know, like a lot of people feel imposttor syndrome, like they feel just it's bizarre to be around these legendary human beings. Like they're right there. Like I I I still kind of get weirded out by it. Even when I met you today, I'm like, "Oh, that's Bono." Like it's still weird, you know? It's still weird to meet people that are like hugely famous. And when you were a young man, when when you two was just blowing up, was it strange that the transition like to accept the fact like this is where we are. we belong here. But well, you you you got it right the first time. There is a part of you that doesn't think you belong here, right? And then when you're younger, you you you're not admitting that to yourself. And I have a I have a few annoying more than a few annoying aspects depending on who you're talking to. But if I have an annoying gene, um, part of it is when I'm at my most vulnerable, I'm I give it the most swagger. Ah, so we were playing the Super Bowl. We were walked on just after 9/11, big emotional moment. And we're you got 8 minutes, whatever, to switch over. And I've got my ears in because the only way I'm in touch with what's with with what's going on. And we're walking through the crowd. We've got the crowd on the on the pitch. I think one of the first times that was ever done. and and somebody goes, "Yay!" and they and I can feel my ear come out. And that will mean I'm all fair. And if you look at the film as I've had to of us walking up to get on stage, I am giving it so much chin, you just go, "Who is that obnoxious Irish [ __ ] what? Where does he get that attitude?" Here it is right here. Oh, there it is. I think I'm singing there. So, it's if you just go back a little bit, you'll get the real That's the chin. No, no, just before there. But, but uh but look, not a care in the world. And that's I mean, [ __ ] is a word for it. Yeah. Swagger is another word for it. It's a shield. It's a shield. Yeah. And as I get older, I, you know, part of the film was taking off my armor and just dropping the sword, dropping the shield, taking it off. And now in that moment, you wake up. It's a bit like the dream where you're naked in front of the whole school and it's really cold and and and then you realize yeah your life as you are realizing yourself now oh how did this happen to me and and how did I get to meet these extraordinary people and so it's that's why I wrote the book surrender that's why I did it but because it was just starting came to realize when I was younger I was like yeah you know uh Bob Dylan once asked us I was 24 and he says uh he was recording there I was going to interview him and he said you want to go on stage or whatever and do a song and I said well he said leopard skin pillbox hats amazing song I said oh look the lyrics too I and I've been learning to improvise as a singer and Um, and I uh I went out on stage and he said, "Do you know blowing in the wind?" I said, "I probably got that one down." But I didn't. Oh. And I just walked out on stage and I could see it was at home crowd Ireland people. Oh, wow. One of ours is up there with Bob Dylan. Wow. Oh, it's Bomber. Wow. Okay. And he's gonna sing. Oh my god. He can't. Oh. Oh, exchange the melody. Well, exchange of words and you could just see I mean go down in flames and afterwards I see Bob and I said look I'm sorry about that just it's just the way we've been working at the moment just kind of improvising stuff and he was like it's okay you know everything I I make them up all the time and he was generous about it nothing's fixed in time something like that that's a great Bob Dylan impression one of my favorite moments in the film was when your bandmates were concerned that Pavarati was going to show up with a camera crew and he showed up with a camera crew. He did one of the It was just funny. It was like a It was a really welltimed moment like and when you said it on stage it was so well timed because it's like here you're honoring this man who's like this incredible fantastic singer but your bandmates they've got a good instinct like this is going to be a big press hop as well like this is part of the reason why he wants to do this and then that's not going to be fun because it's going to be weird and then boom. Yeah. one of the great one of the great arm wrestlers um emotional arm wrestlers of all time. He it's interesting that there was a generosity there which which which he wanted opera because opera was kind of the punk of its time. Classical musicians look down on opera, you know, these are stories from the street. They're they're too accessible, you know, and Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. opera was much rougher and and he instinctively knew and he was constantly trying to make relationships that would cross the divide and and make sort of opera popular. And so to the point where yeah he did he used to call our house and say you know at first it was with me but then when he would haunt our housekeeper Theresa and say like is God at home will tell God to he's late on the song or you know he do this kind of carry on and and I again this these figures in in my life I knew that I was in, you know, on sacred ground when I was near him. I knew this, but the band, they didn't have the didn't have the relationship with opera. They Well, actually, Edg's dad was into opera, but my dad was it was it was I I was using Luchiano Pavarati to get to my dad. That was the real thing. And so as you see in the film, I I play my my father just by turning my head. Yeah. And I become him and and and I was trying to impress him. I'd be in Finnegan's pub where we'd be sitting not speaking to each other and and and I'd try something and I go, "Um, what do you think about uh Luchiano Pavarati call him?" And he'd go, "Did he get a wrong number?" You know, be all that. And and so yeah, there was an emotional throughine because our house was an opera. Unfortunately, my dad was going on in Hinn's life was oporatic. Um but it's also funny. Yeah. Yeah. And it's also this you you are both celebrating the brilliance of this incredible singer and also you're you're taking the piss out of this whole cult of celebrity thing that comes along with it. Yeah. And Princess Diana the the best that thing with your dad and Princess Diana was hilarious. So because Edg's edge is that is is Edg's mother and father from Wales. So to you know so we're with Pavarati in modern I think it was and and he's so the princess of Wales is meeting the great tenor and he is offered to meet you know anyone who wants you know Ed's family because they're from Wales to meet the princess of Wales and he says to me look do do does your dad want to go and I of course know the reason I know I I know the answer and the reason for the answer, but he says, "Well, just just ask him." So, I ask him. I just go, "Dah, listen. You wouldn't want to uh go meet Lady Dye, you know, the princess." What? What? H Why would I want to meet a member of the British royal family? That that's like asking me, "Do I want to meet the winner of the lotto?" And I'm like, "Okay, got it. Got it. Got it." And then later she comes into our dressing room and melts him just by reaching her hand at how do you do? And he's like, "Oh, very well. Thank you." Uh um and as I say, eight 800 years of oppression gone in a second. And if you wonder about um the reasoning for having a royal family and a lot of Irish people do there I I I would say is that's the reason right the weight of it the weight of it overcame him. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very bizarre relationship though you know like I'm one quarter Irish and I the relationship between Ireland and United Kingdom and England and it's like it's it's complicated. Were you were you I've read that you got into martial arts because you felt picked on at some point. Is that true? Yes. Yeah. So, you don't like bullies? No. No. No. I don't like that at all. It's the weakest inclination of the human spirit, you know, to to pick on the weak. It's it's terrible. It's a it's a terrible instinct that humans have from probably from the time where you had to ostracize weak people because you lived in a tribe of people barely surviving and you couldn't tolerate any weak links in the chain. I mean that's essentially probably where it came from. It probably came out of a survival Darwinian thing. Yes. Where everyone was barbarians and you had to force people to be the hardest version possible because otherwise the genes wouldn't survive. Yeah. And the survival of the fittest. It's Yeah. which is the world we live in. Yeah. I mean, this is one of the things that attracts me to Christianity is the idea of the first will be last, the last will be first is so radical. Mhm. And it's the literally the opposite of the survival of the fittest. Right. But America, why I love America is is it has I mean the British Empire bullied it and it stood up. I was we were coming here. I was asking someone in the car about the the Declaration of of Independence and you know how many Irish signatures there were. Wasn't that many I can't remember whether but they were all committing treason. They were putting their lives, they were pledging their lives, their fortune and their sacred honor. So America, the very essence of America is this idea of sticking in to the bully. Yeah. And and I know America can be a bully. We all we have our moments and all and all that, but it's the essence of who you are and and happened again with the the geyser with the tash. Um the ger that's a great calling Hitler, you know, but yeah, you know, you weren't you weren't having it, right? and and I you know as a as a as an activist which we can talk about later but the you know I remember going to it's only a few hours from here but was in um Lincoln Nebraska and um Warren Buffett came to one of our it's called Heart of America tour. We're raising awareness on this pandemic, this AIDS pandemic that has killed just, you know, 30 million people at this point. And why might America be interested? And I'm very Irish and very given a lot of that. And afterwards, I ask the sage of Omaha for for any advice. and and he gives me two pieces of advice, but probably well the one was don't ask people to do something simple because they won't trust you. He said ask them to do something complicated. What do you mean by that? Well, I said he said, "What are you asking people to do here?" And I said, "Well, they're I'm asking them to we're asking them uh the one campaign we're we're asking them to send, you know, a note to their local congressperson." He said, "No, no, no, no. Don't do that. Too simple. Make them do something more difficult and they'll trust you. Maybe 10 postcards. It's harder to do." I was like, "Okay." And anything else? And he he said something which really changed my life and changed my conversation with this country of yours. He said, "Don't appeal to our conscience of America. Don't do that. Appeal to the greatness of America and you'll get the job done. Americans want to be great. That is true. I think it is true. And cuz Ireland, we work with guilt. You know, you can guilt people. It's a lot of countries. You can work them just, you know, but Americans not. Give them the chance to be the cavalry. Yeah. And they'll I mean Omaha Beach, the heroism of Omaha Beach, the lives poured out, you know, and to to save Europe from from tyranny. And that's who America is. And you know I I gave you the Joshua tree because I you know it's not just as an Irishman but probably more because I as an Irishman fell under the spell of America even as kids. you know, coming here, um, a lot of the cooler bands would just play the coasts, you know, the cooler UK bands or European bands, but I wanted I wanted to be all over America. I mean, we played we opened for a wet t-shirt competition in in Dallas. We year was this? 81. Uh, 21. Wow. We we we in a Austin I don't know if if anyone can remember it was it was it was called the club club foot. It was a bad pun, but there was no AC and I remember it was a tin roof and for Irish people, we were just being boiled. But I have really really great memories of just busing it through this sort of mythical landscape. You know, there was there's nowhere nowhere in this country I would want to fly over, but I do now. you know, he got the the plane, he had the this, but I I just remember thinking this is there's so many Americas. Yes. But the the mythology of America, I was reading, you know, Sam Shepard. I was reading, you know, on the road. I was reading, you know, all these great writers and just opening up my imagination. That's where the Joshua Tree came from. And yeah, it's it's it's a it's it's a mythology that then can you imagine I get to discover that in my case it's not just a mythology it I was part of something that was extraordinary. So former governor of of this Texas George W. Bush, conservative, starts to lead the world in the fight against the AIDS pandemic, the greatest health crisis in 600 years since the bubanic plague. And I'm like, people say that's impossible. It's just not going to happen. And he does. and becomes a bipartisan thing and 26 million lives are saved. So, it's strange the way you see things. I had this I wasn't a naive [Music] um sense of America, but it was a sense that everything could be possible here, that there was somehow the landscape of America was was a little more magical than than everywhere else. And that it wasn't just a country America. It was an idea. Yes. Yeah. I at at its greatest that is what America is. At its greatest, it's an idea. And it's an idea that was like I said was founded with the the concepts behind the Declaration of Independence. And those those men who wrote that, the men who signed the Bill of Rights was they were so young. They were so young. Some of them were 18 years old at the time, which is so crazy. Jefferson was 32 or 33 when he wrote that. He's an old cajger. I mean, that's wild. And then, by the way, years later, he's in France. I think he's in B. And he loved wine. And this emerged. I found this out because I saw a signature in in a in a book. I was on some tour. I like to drink um red wine. And I've never been to Bordeaux in my life, but I I went with some people who knew their way around wine, and they asked me to sign a book in this particular um uh vineyard, posh kind of vineyard, but this was across the road from the big name sort of thing. And I asked I said, "Can I see the first book?" There's Thomas Jefferson's name in the first book. I thought, "Wow, this guy's dreaming up America on some very fancy red plunk." Yeah. Not plunk, actually. some really there's just but you know I know there's lots of contradictions in in America and I know there was slavery still and that he had slaves and I understand but I'm encouraged that America perhaps doesn't exist yet that it's still been written if you think about it as a song you think about it as a piece of music. It's not finished. Right. Right. It's still being written. They started at those signatures. Yeah. You and if you'll let people like me stay, you you know, we're still, you know, you're writing it. I'm I'm I'm not writing. I'm the annoying fan who follows America into the bathroom and and with the liner notes, which are the declaration going, "Didn't you say this here?" And get out. Who followed me into the bathroom? It's like but but I yeah I I I like the idea that it's that this is far from finished this composition. Yes. And for some people the America that is available to you and me doesn't exist yet but it will and it can. And uh and yeah, we hope that every election cycle like this this will be the one that finally makes us what we truly believe we are. But the the country is just so co-opted by this. First of all, you have this genuine issue with the fact that it's essentially a popularity contest, right, to see who gets to be running the government. You have a popularity contest. It's fueled entirely by special interests and the military-industrial complex and pharmaceutical drug companies and it's just it's a it's all it's all the opposite of of an authentic song, right? The thing about an authentic song where it makes your [ __ ] goosebumps stand up. You're like, "God damn." You think it's an AI come? Can I tell you a story? Um, a long time ago, probably 25 years ago, I was on mushrooms with a friend of mine and we were laying on the side of this hill overlooking this canyon and we played in God's country. Oh, wow. And it was just the the the peak of the mushrooms and the songs, the melody, the way that song hit, it just it gave me this insane appreciation for things like at that m was like this very unique fusion of the beauty of the music and the love of the experience. It's like the mushrooms bring out this like loving like communal quality like happiness and and joy and just lying in this field looking up at this canyon and hearing that song. It was like this is what what music does. It takes these moments and wherever they're at, it breaks them through the membrane into this new place. Like this moment, it broke through this membrane and brought me to this. I think about it all the time. I think about that particular experience all the time. We need the line in that when I'm singing it is um is a line that doesn't just apply to America but applies to us personally. um wherever you are is you know we need new dreams tonight and you can't be living on we've got we can't be living on secondhand dreams and that's I think the renewal I think is what what we're all looking for and and and yeah it's it's it's something to be protected and and I not protected That sounds like it's it's like I think you're right, though. I But I I think I I think America is more vulnerable now than it's ever been. It feels like America's fallen out of love with the rest of the world. I don't think the world wants to fall out of love with America. It it just feels like and you know I've 20 25 years and and I'm just a tiny cog in I suppose you know people look at personalities or you know uh even luminous ones or ones that have ideas way above their station and think that will you know that that might change things but it's social movements always change things And what happened back then with with that Heart of America tour was was mindblowing because I learned a few things that I wasn't expecting. Like I had grown up with a couple of more than a few bumps um with evangelicals, you know, it's like whoop, you know. It's like you know how do you you can't approach the subject of God without metaphor right so literalism is by its nature anti- metaphor and you know Jesus all we know is that he spoke in parables because they're not literal how do you explain these as poetry is music and I found it really difficult to be around evangelicals because they were so you know just literal And then on that same tour where I met Warren Buffett, I end up at a college called Wheaten College, which is like a big in Chicago. It's a big evangelical thing. And they were like they were really helpful and they were like I realized that these were kind of and this is not to be at all dismissive of a of some incredible people, but it was like I felt there was there were sort of narrow-minded sort of what would I say just sort of narrow the the vision if I could just open the aperture of their vision just a little bit wider. Yeah. That they could be the most incredible force for good because they just worked harder. They didn't tell lies. They they were just great people. And I think they they led part of this movement that that ended up saving 26 million lives, you know, and called PEPAR that George Bush started and Obama continued. Then I go to Catholics. I'd end up in Notre Dame. I had a few bruises with the Catholics over the years, too. And I'm meeting these people and they're like, "No, no, we're we we we want to we we we believe in the value of human life and we if we can do this, how much does this cost?" And I'm like, "Well, you know, all of foreign aid is probably just less than 1% of government spending, but the part that keeps people alive is is half of that." So, it's like half a percent. Now, it's not my money. It's up to you if you want to do that. But they did. And lots of people came together. It was priests and punks, you know, it was the wildest collection of people and and just recently like in in the last three months, and this is not about politics because I've worked with conservatives, I've worked with liberals. I I don't care, you know, I don't have those. I'm Irish. I don't have a chance to vote. But all of that was torn down without a heads up, without any notice because people thought foreign aid was like 10% of the budget or 20% and it was doing things that it shouldn't have been doing. And I'm sure there was some waste, but I can tell you as a person who who saw what the United States was doing around the world and saw this this I saw America display itself at its finest. And I remember being in the Oval Office with President Bush and and had and these anti-retroviral drugs. I said, "Paint them red, white, and blue, Mr. President. these are the best advertisements for America there'll ever be. And he's looking at me thinking I'm taking a piss, but I'm not. And he wasn't, as it turns out. And and he he spoke about the the least of these, which is a wild concept. I don't know if you know this, but it's like the it's uh it's in Matthew, I think it is. It's it's it's the only time that um Jesus speaks of judgment. It's not like what's going on in your pants. It's not like what's going over here or over there. The first time Jesus Christ speaks in kind of force of judgment is the way we treat the poor, the poorest of the poor. And he says, "Well, in the way that you're treating these the least of of them, the the sick, the blind, the people who are suffering from malnutrition, that's how you treat me. I am them." And so now when we cut to the people like you went to Boston University, um you taught at Boston University. I taught martial arts there. Yeah. So, so just recent report, it's not proven, but the surveillance enough suggests 300,000 people have already died from just this cut off, this hard cut of USID. So, there's food rotting in boats, in warehouses. There is this this this will will [ __ ] you off. This will not you will not be happy. No American will. But there is I think it's 50,000 tons of food that are stored in Djibouti, South Africa, Dubai, and wait for it, Houston, Texas. And that is rotting rather than going to Gaza, rather than going to Sudan because the people who know the codes or for the warehouse are fired. They're gone. And so this I don't know. I just it's and what do you think? What what what is what is that? That's that's not America, is it? Well, they're throwing the baby out with the bath water. Right. Right. This is the problem. The problem is for sure there have been a lot of organizations that do tremendous good all throughout the world. Also, for sure it was a moneyaundering operation. For sure there was no oversight. For sure. billions of dollars are missing. In fact, trillions that are unaccounted for that were sent off into various they they don't even know where because there's no receipts. The way Elon Musk described it, he said if any of this was done by a public company, the company would be delisted and the executives would be in prison. But in the United States, this is standard. When Biden left office, when it was clear that Trump won in the 73 days, they spent 93 billion dollar from the Department of Energy on just radical loans just throwing money into places, right? And there's no no oversight, no receipts. Like the the whole thing is it's there's a lot of fraud, a lot of money laundering, but also we help the world. And when you're talking about making wells for people in the Congo to get fresh water, when you're talking about food and medicine to places that don't have access, like no way that should have been cut out and that should have been clear before they make these radical cuts. like there's got to be a way to keep aid and not have fraud and you can't have you can't say we're going to kill everything so that there's no fraud. But then you're killing all the good and you're doing it without letting anybody know it's going to happen. So no one's it's not like they had three years to prepare. Let's build a new infrastructure. Let's make sure that everything's set up. They wanted change and they want to change quickly. And due to the nature of American politics, they have about two years before the midterms, right? So everything has to get done as quickly as possible. You have to show a growth in GDP. You have to show that the economy is booming again under these ideas. Make America first, tariffs for the world, bring back American manufacturing, and this mad rush to do it all as quickly as possible while cutting out as much waste as possible. Yeah. But the ironic thing is even though Elon Musk has proposed all these things and the Doge committee has proposed all these things, they've made no cuts in terms of the budget. They've cut nothing. They vote against a tiny part. I mean, if if if it's big government or whatever, people want to want to shrink. I I I I I get the instinct, but this the lifesaving part. It's like the little finger of the giant, right? Exactly. I mean, and and I' I've met all these people, and I'm sure there's there's part of it, you know, there's I think about 10% of it goes to things like governance and, you know, human rights organizations. You might say that's political and we shouldn't be involved in that. And there's reforms, I imagine, that might have been necessary, but to have the reforms, but but to to to destroy to to vandalize, I mean, it felt like with glee these life support systems were being pulled out of the walls. And I was I was reading today, you know, is like I think it's in Christianity today and they're just talking I think it's called Christian Relief, one of these organizations and they're dealing with malnourished kids. And they are having the conversation now about we don't have the funds. We have to choose which child to pull off the IVs. And it just seems to me like a kind of I I I don't know if if evil is a strong word, too strong a word, but what we know about pure evil is it rejoices in the deaths, you know, of the squandering of human life, particularly children's and suffering. Yeah. It actually rejoices in it. And and I just, you know, whether it's whether it's incompetence, whether it's unintended consequences, it's it's not too late for people like I I had conversations with with with Marco Rubio. He's convinced people aren't dying yet. It's it's it's I don't know who's telling him, not telling him rather, but he his instincts are correct. He, you know, he wants to die. He used to wear a one campaign armband. Americans, no matter what political color, they just they just they just you you see them just the size sort of they just grow in stature when they know they're being useful. I had a truck driver on that same tour. He like tattoos all over his head and whatever and he was just saying, "Can I drive? I heard 50% of all truck drivers in Africa are going to die. Is that right? Because of this disease, AIDS. I said, "Yeah." He said, "Can I give you my number? I will drive." Like, that's America. And and yeah, this the bureaucracy, the the the the pen pushers. I get it. I get people's frustration for it. But but I'm just I just want to remind Americans of the size of their country. And it's and I'm not talking about the geography, the impact. I'm just the the the size of the idea, the the the the you know, it's just it's it's just an extraordinary thing. It's an idea, I think, big enough to fit the whole world. when it becomes a continent, you know, when it becomes an island rather than a continent. I think it's a subcontinent. I should have should have gone to geography uh lessons more, but you know, you know what I'm talking about when it shrinks. America seems to stop being America. And I know you don't want to get into wars and you shouldn't um but that are that that don't concern you but but there's this this word freedom land of the free. Yeah. That's and the brave. This is this is who we look to you for and we look to you for these qualities. And I believe they're everywhere. And I don't believe anyone party has a has a hold on them. No. On these on these qualities, but you know, it's it's a it's a funny one for me. I one of the reasons I came on on on the show, I wanted to on the show was I I wanted to interview you. I wanted to I just wanted to get your take on where America is at the at the present time because because you're talking to everyone, you know, this isn't this is a compliment to you, but my book, you know, wrote this book, Surrender, and sort of if there's a point to it at the very end, it's it's just I'm I'm shouting at God. I'm having my wrestling match with my maker and you just get this thing of and and you've probably picked it up by now. Shut up and listen. And I need to listen more. You are a amazing listener. And I don't know who it was or some who said listening doesn't grant the other side legitimacy but it grants them their humanity. and restores your own and you sit in this room and you listen to everybody and that makes you very valuable um in to to the country and and I wanted to just get your your take on it. What what would your advice be to me and people like me who are not part of [Music] the big industrial complex just we just we just want to serve the idea of America and the people who depend on that idea. Yeah. I I What would your advice to me? I would give you zero advice. I I don't know if I'm qualified to give advice, but I would say that America goes through these great periods of overcorrection. It goes these great periods of like you you saw it during COVID, during the lockdowns and the authoritarianism and we fell into a kind of state of tyranny where there was just massive oppression of free speech including government sponsored oppression. They were contacting uh different social media platforms and banning legitimate doctors and scholars because they had different opinions about how things should be handled. There was uh widescale censorship, a push for a changing of the first amendment. The first amendment needs to be overhauled. The first amendment doesn't apply to hate speech or to disinformation. And there was all these like new ways of talking about censorship in this country and condoning censorship and it's very dangerous because it's all about money. It had nothing to do with protecting people. That's what I worry about. The the argument about free speech is that it seems to be sponsored by a lot of people who you sense don't really respect it so much and it but it is a very economic um for them to not have to to live with the consequences. Yes. Of of a story. I think what is it the communication I think it's the it's 1996 this is a long time ago communications act decency act that meant the internet did not have to apply by the same rules as the rest of the media right so we could say anything we wanted and at first that felt like liberation but I'm not so sure anymore and so I mean I I you can tell me more about this I'm I'm I am not a free speech absolutist. Um, but I like I do want to believe in free speech, but I'm nervous that the people who are supporting free speech and and using their bots and their their their own activists are are people from countries who would not at all respect our your mine ability to express ourselves. And um that's what I worry about is I think I think the the old interweb is being is being played like a like a harp, you know, like like an orchestra and and the people, you know, behind the curtain would surprise us, I think, if we knew. Worse than that. I think it's programmed like an EDM concert. I think I I think it's not even an orchestra. I I I worry and this has been substantiated by data that more than 50% of the interactions going on on the internet and social media are not real. And there was a wild former FBI analyst yes former FBI analyst that said it might be as much as 80%. It's bots as you said and this is this is a problem with the concept of free speech. I'm I'm completely wholly in favor of free speech just like the ADL was back in the day when they let the Ku Klux Clan march. They they like look you you've got to the way to combat bad speech is with better speech. The way to find out whose arguments are correct is to let them debate in the marketplace of free ideas and expose these people for what they are and have the people that are on the sidelines that are letting these great thinkers have these discussions say, "Okay, this guy makes sense. This guy is clearly a grifter. This guy has ulterior motives. this guy has an ideology that's very toxic and he's trying to push this on the whole world for control, for power, for money, to benefit the special interest groups that he's a part of or whatever it is that the problem with free speech is you're you're also going to get a lot of ugliness because there's a lot of ugliness in the world. You're going to get a lot of people that say horrible things. And I think the only way we sort through all that is you have to let them. And then you have to let people rise up that oppose those horrible ideas. And those people become heroes. Those become the Martin Luther King Juniors. Humor helps. Like uh humor helps. The one thing people know about the Kluk clan is if you mention the silly costumes, they they don't like that. They, you know, it's like they want you to be afraid or you want to be nervous, but it's like, dude, look at the stage gear. You're a ghost. You like it's like, come on. Do you know who Daryl Davis is? No. Daryl Davis is a musician who um he's was a traveling blues musician and uh did some shows where afterwards he met some people that told him that they were in the Klux Clan. And he was like, "Are are you kidding?" And they show the guy shows him his [ __ ] grand wizard ident card or whatever the hell it is. He becomes friends with card. Daryl's black, right? Daryl's a black man and becomes friends with this guy, goes to his house, meets his family. The guy throws the robe away, gives up his membership in the KKK, renounces his membership, and gives Daryl the rope, says, "I want you to have this." Daryl has done that personally. The last time I talked to him was a few years back. He'd done this personally to over 200 people just by being an amazing human being, by being a brilliant artist and and hanging out with them, just being kind and talk and as an example of just a great human. And they were like, I guess I'm wrong. I guess I'm wrong. This idea that black people are inferior and the white man is a superior race, that can't be true because I love this guy. And so they would just quit. Yeah, they'd quit. And he has theory. It's a terrible theory, but if you're in a place with only terrible theories and that's what you grow up, there's Daryl and they give him all [Laughter] his, you know, good man. He's a great man. Good man. And he's a kind like very peaceful like when you speak to him, he's but real he's amazing. one of your you know again one of the reasons I'm I'm here is the I think there is a sense that people just want to be part of something and you know when we were growing up there there there were clubs you could be a part of you know there there there's there's people you could hang out with and you knew where that was going, but if you wanted to belong and have a sense of purpose, you ended up there. And and so I think that it's okay to un for for men to admit that in this moment they are probably, you know, we're we're a we're a little a drift. I hear this from my daughters. I hear this from my wife. And it's it's like that's where this feeling of of of being dislocated. It's it's so you're attracted to these simple ideas, you know, the concept of the gang or America like it's a team sport between the reds and the blues. America's the team. That's all. Yeah. That's and and and this thing and and and look, I'm vulnerable. We were we are all especially when you're growing up teenagers, you know, you are very vulnerable to to those points of view. Yes. I you know, early on we had sort of Yeah. I would say I had a I I got close to what you might call fundamentalists. And this is all versions of fundamentalism. There are it's all a very narrow view. Yeah. And and you know what you see going on right in in Gaza is you see you see Palestinian people being held hostage by Hamas. It's not just Israeli that are being held hostage by Hamas. Palestinian people and the fundamentalists in in in Israel in this in in in the cabinet, these farright fundamentalists because at a time you remember a few years back everything was kind of wishywashy and kind of the new age and whatever you have in yourself and now these strong clear points of view have arrived and it's the great overcorrection. It's the great overcorrection. Yeah. that there's a real problem with ideology and there's a real problem with fundamentalism and there's a cowardice in it and there's a cowardice in I'm the only one that's correct. There's a cowardice in not listening to any other ideas, not listening to any other positions and we're being played against each other in this country. The thing about the bots and the social media stuff is it just accentuates this divide between the left and the right which I think is mostly [ __ ] Most people are good people. Most people just want to be happy and healthy and have friends and family and do what they want to do for a living and have the freedom to pursue those things. Most people aren't trying to victimize people. Most people aren't trying to destroy other people's lives and destroy destroy society. They they they they just want to live their life, but they're being sucked into one side or the other that which is radically opposed to each other. The great overcorrection. Did you think that President Zalinski was being bullied in that meeting in the Oval Office? Like is that just just to think about it as a playground? This is a guy his maybe maybe his life depended but certainly the life of many many people he knew depend on and he had to he to listen to that. Well, the whole thing is strange, right? I mean, uh, the argument in the White House of like you don't have the right hand of cards and you know that just the fact that this is all being done publicly is very strange, right? That there's cameras and photographers like I don't like live podcasts sometimes. I've done them before, but there's something about having an audience where you're playing to an audience having, you know, these conversations should be just couple people in a room. That's what I think. I think that's the the ones that resonate with me the most. Yeah, this is I just think it's the best way to do it, the way that resonates the most. I think the kind of conversation that you're going to have with the world leader shouldn't be performative and it it certainly shouldn't be with a bunch of people snapping photographs and pointing cameras and then pushing each other back and forth. You know, you you don't have the right hand hand of cards. This is not cards. You are playing cards. And it's just a cra it's a crazy way. and each calling each other disrespectful. It's a crazy way to handle any world events. It's just terrible platform for it. Yeah. Just think of again I think of America, the Americans of Omaha Beach, the people who like the level of courage. Yeah. And I think of these people on the front line in Europe. I mean, I haven't really spoken about Europe with with you, but you know, if if if America is the melting pot, I would say Europe's the the mosaic. You know, it's all these different people who speak with a different language, but have are trying for one voice in Europe, which is can sound like cacophony. They call it Eurobel in in in Brussels. But I' I've really I'm really now realizing how romantic it was. You know, we the Enlightenment with the Renaissance, you know, we've got we got a lot to offer and and and Europe has Europe's under threat and those bots every election now that where this candidate is pro- Europe and pro- European unity, they are just getting a [ __ ] storm of disinformation. And and I just think, wow, but it's I think Europe is and America are just sexier than these people. Is that a trit thing to say? But it's like they're they're so kind of unsexy, you know? That's I mean that's Sorry, I have I have driven unromantic. Unromantic. It's That's right. It's just these very dull, not funny people, right? And are trying to take over the world. They're not funny. Lucenko of Bellarus, that dude is not funny. We don't have to go further. We don't have to go further. Who do you think is the funniest world leader? Oh my god. Who? Yeah, that's a really good question. It's got to be Trump. He's the funniest. Well, he has the thing that a lot of stand-up comedians have, which is he can say the thing in the room that no one else is going to say, right? And that generally creates a laugh. And um but I also think he mightn't be able to take a joke. Well, he's not good at that. He doesn't enjoy a joke coming his way. No, he doesn't. I mean, Zilinski is actually a comedian, right? I I met him before he became president. He played piano with his penis on television. It It's quite a It was quite a piano. I mean, it's funny to go from playing piano with your penis to becoming the president of the Ukraine, becoming the president of the United States by all accounts. So, so um but he he came to Ireland as a comedian. He told me I didn't know and he played like small towns. I think he played Dundor or Draw or somewhere in the east coast of Ireland. But comedians can read a room. I mean performers. I think comedians are the top of the food chain because you don't have a band. You don't have a [ __ ] tambourine. You don't. You just have the read of the room and the material has to be really funny. I use this sometimes with our band. Not a lot of our music is just experimental and innovative. We improvise and then we try to turn it into songs. But sometimes we'll write a pop song and and we'll end up with a pop song and I'll say, "Well, the thing about a pop song is it is empirical. It's like it either is or it isn't. It's like a joke that doesn't have a punchline. It's like a comedian does not walk out on stage and tell a joke and if people don't laugh go they just don't get it. It just means the joke isn't funny. So I it's not a popular theory in our band by the way but I hold on to it very tight. I just say if you can't go out and play this song and it just connect then it's not a pop song. We don't we only do a few pop songs every every decade probably because a lot of what we YouTube does is different kind of rock and roll. But I do think there's something empirical about some songs are better than the others. Yes. I witnessed a I witnessed one of the most ridiculous uh moments in in my life, but it was kind of funny. Um, Oasis, you know, Oasis are amazing to just love them. And um, so I witnessed this. It couldn't be a more childish fight between two of my friends. Liam Galler was a friend at that point, I know better now, but and Michael Hutchkins, who was the singer of in Excess. And they really were doing the my song's better than your song. Oh no. No. No. What about No, no. And and and and I was thinking, I was laughing to myself and then I thought it's interesting. Both of them have a point. That song of theirs might be better than that. And I started to think about it and comedians don't get a chance to have to be subjective. It's not like Prince walks out and plays a whole new album and can go they just don't get it. It's like you're either funny or you're not. Right. You're going down flame. Have you gone down in flames? Oh, sure. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Where's What was your worst gig? Oh, I've had so many. Especially in the early days, you're you're trying to figure it out. And you know, the thing about material is material is essentially like like a calf that's newly born and it has awkward legs and it has to develop into a bull. But it takes a long time. It takes crafting. You have to sit with it. You have to go over the some ideas come to you in full form and some ideas you have to believe in them. You know there's something there and you have to dig and you know trust the muse and find it and you know sometimes those bits will just [ __ ] bomb and you have to just like gosh should I abandon this? Should I keep working on this? Do you have a team of writers? No. Wow. No, I just write everything myself. You're kidding. No. Always. Yeah. Always have. always right. I just like my my view on standup, the kind of standup that I do is supposed to be here's the world through my eyes. This is how I'm seeing things from the most ridiculous aruck and laughing at everything perspective and I have to it has to be through my lens. Well, that's amazing. I mean, because I've seen, you know, on Saturday Night Live when we do it or I've seen some of the talks, I see these geniuses, you know, crunching jokes and coming out with material and that's a different thing. It's a different thing. Yeah. Like a Saturday Night Live monologue or, you know, a Tonight Show monologue or any of that kind of thing. It's a That's a different thing. The The real standup is clubs, you know. I went to club with Dave Chappelle to a club. He brought me to it was amazing. Are you still friendly with him? Oh, real good friends. Yeah. I love him to death. Yeah, he's he's he's incred That's jazz. Yes, he's a real artist. He can go there. Well, well, you know, it's like Yeah. No, I'm I I think Why am I Why am I talking about this? I'm told this. Oh, yeah. Because people can't take a joke, right? And some people I mean, we don't need belly laughs out of our leaders. We just need vision. You need vision and kindness. Yes, but to deal with the Klux Clan, humor helps. to deal with the the fascists or whatever. I I mean certainly Hitler in I think late 30s was getting rid of the dads and the surrealists because the language of fascism was to fight back but that they liked that language and I mean the language of resistance against you know Hitler was to fight back and and but they that suited them. They did not like being laughed at. the fuel did not like being laughed at. Well, cuz if you can mock something, like you can you can have a position or an opinion on something and someone can disagree strongly, but if they make everyone laugh at that position, now you're now they've made a real point because it's actually an opinion that you might not have even agreed with has caused you to belly laugh. Like, oh god. Like, that's how you really get because if you go on stage and just have a bunch of opinions and just lecture people, there's people in the audience that go, well, well, [ __ ] you. I feel differently. But if you could go on stage with that opinion and make people laugh at something they know they shouldn't be laughing at like, oh my god. And you're like like then you're introducing ideas into a person. It's a spoonful of sugar that helps the medicine go down. Yeah. No, you're certainly the because with rock stars and again honestly feel like I'm just a impersonating one. I don't think I I am the material really, but people when they see me coming, they sit in their wallet. You know what I mean? They're like, "Wh he comes and he's going to have a sign up." And it's like, whereas comedians, people are much more open. People will people will are just more open. I think that's a that's that it's a responsibility, but it's it's something to be valued. It's just I I I was saying to somebody recently, I'm not sure I trust people anymore who aren't a little bit funny. Yeah. I mean, funny in the not not the funny peculiar, right? There's a place for that, too. But, you know, people who make you laugh are open. Yes. And also, the contradictions of the world and how bizarre things are, it's just ripe with humor. And if you don't ever pick up on it, like what are you focusing on? Like you don't ever see the hypocrisy and the ludicrousness of just this existence, this temporary existence on a spinning orb hurling through the universe and concentrating on who gets to use what bathroom. Like is this like, you know what I mean? It's like we're weird. We're very weird. And if you don't see that, you're not paying all attention. You're not all in. You're certainly not balanced. Those mushrooms were working very well for you. Yeah, that I'm telling you, man. In God's country. That's the ticket. That's beautiful. I I um Wow. I'm I'm so touched that album, you know, a lot of the songs on that were, you know, very vulnerable, you know, and I don't know if you know Brian, you know, was a produced at one of invented ambient music and worked with David Bowie, talking heads, you know, um, and recently Coldplay and other people. Um, but he was had a profound influence on us because we didn't go to I didn't go to art college. All like the Beatles, the Stones, they all went to art college. We went to Brianino and he had this incredible musician in partnership with him for the production of that album called Daniel Lano. One of the greatest musicians you'll ever meet in your life. And that some songs come really quickly, like boom, you just But somes are just like what you're saying. They're like the the the fo the the legs are going around. And the one that was like that was where the streets of Noame and so we were working on it for what felt like weeks and Brian you know came in and he just said I am not having us spend one more minute on this song and he went to wipe it. So he was actually gonna wipe it and and so there's no other copies and Pat McCarthy who was our engineer went on to produce and Madonna great dude he physically blocked Brian from it and but that song for me and it's it's not the lyric that I'm most proud of or anything because it's Brian was just saying to us just go with you for a sketch. Remember talking about paint on canvas? Yes. But I'm saying, but it's not it's not that clever. I want He don't let it be clever. Just that's what you said. That's what you meant. And and it's the strangest thing. Uh Joe, because we go on stage and I sing that song, we sing that song, we play that song. And it's like, what the [ __ ] Where the streets of knowing? What's that about? I started it in Africa when I was with my wife when I was a kid and you were 25 something like maybe 26. She was 24 and it was about the devastation that was happening in the Ethiopian famine and I just couldn't explain it to myself. There was other inferences about the song, but none of them matter as much as this question to your audience, which is do you want to go there to this place, a place of imagination, a place of soul, place of that other place? Do you want do you want to go there? Should we do you want to go there together? And everybody feels it because we all want to be outside of ourselves at a certain time and we all want to have that experience that meeting with some call it the universe some call it God some call it themselves whatever but it's it's music now I think you know all art aspires to the condition of of music. But but we I was saying we go to church in the dark, you know, that's what rock and roll is. And we're just looking for little shards of light. We find it in in an audience. We find our transcendence together. But the movie, we also go to church in the dark in cinema. You're sitting in you're in you're in a dark space and it's projected light telling other people's stories [Music] and somebody said cinema is like being born like you go into the womb. It's like you're floating around in the, as Jim Sheran would say, he's my hero, psychological genius, Irish director, My Left Foots, The Boxer, some great films. He'd say, "Yeah, you're in the amniotic fluid. You're inside the mutter and you're about to come out into the light." That's cinema. Great cinema is that journey towards the light. And I love that. Um, I love that. But it's the same for some people. They their cathedral is a hike, the natural world. Yeah. Have you ever heard of Richard Roar? No. Oro Hor. He lives in Albuquerque. He has a thing called it's called the center of the center of um action and contemplation. And I really love it that it's that way round. And he's a Franciscan frier and but very otherworldly thoughts about the natural world and finding the the divine in it as well as just in each other, but just seeing it in the world around you. I think you'd en enjoy him. He's he's he's he's worth he's worth a read. Do you is if Rogan is it Irish? Is it Catholic Irish? Is it? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Okay. You might enjoy him. I'm sure I would. Yeah. He's he's a he's a he's a real beauty. He lives got a little hermitage and and and Yeah. And he's he's good. Um he's great on the anagram as well. Do you know the anagram? No. It's the sort of archetypal thing. goes back to Sufi I think early Sufi and then the Christian fathers are they what they call the desert fathers in the 4th century but it's a way of recognizing archetypes and our own I I I it's not a it's not a big thing for me or anything it's not archetypes but I think my our daughter Eve is an actor and she said a lot of writers are interested in And she said in some of the clever schools they teach this the anagram. He's anyway Richard Ro is an expert in it I think. Oh here it goes. Oh anyagram. Three centers. Oh looks like a cult of intelligence. The mediator peacemaker. So the perfectionist reformer the giver helper supporter performer achiever romantic individualist. The observer thinker the loyal skeptic. the trooper, the epicure, enthusiast, generalist, and the protector, the leader of the boss. What would you say you are? Oh, Jesus. I don't know how you could tell. I wouldn't at this point I think I just keep on keeping on. I try not to pay attention to me as much as possible. I think there's a thing that happens what you're talking about on stage where everyone achieves a higher state of consciousness through a song. I think that's that's where it is really like a church. That's where it is really like a religious experience when when a a great song is playing that like really like when people hear it and like ah you know maybe it's the first couple of bars of Sunday Bloody Sunday. They hear it and they're like yes. It's like this thing that washes over everyone collectively. We're all experiencing it together and it takes you away from yourself. You know, everyone's caught up in their own struggle and their their self and how they exist in this world and all the problems of reality. And then there's something about these moments of divine inspiration where they impact people in this very profound way. And I think that's one of the reasons why people are so deeply drawn to music and especially live performance because music is wonderful. Music by yourself is great. I love listening to music in my car. I love listening to music period. But music when you're in a live setting, when everyone's experiencing it together, it's it's a religious experience. There's something there's something attuned to it. There's a reason why they sing in church, right? To achieve very similar. Yeah. I missed that. You know, when we were kids growing up, the tunes weren't that great in the church. And I said to my I mean, no offense to whoever was there, but they I agree. But you know, I was like I I said to our kids, you know, as and they were all none of them were baptized Protestant or Catholic because my father was Catholic, my mother's. I just said, "You want to be Christian, you want to be Christian, but you decide." So, you know, I never got religion rammed down my throat. I'm certainly not going to put it down yours. So, we'd go and sometimes you just get a feeling in a place. I said, "Just trust that feeling." Yeah. And they might say, "Well, the tunes aren't that good." And I'm like, "It's okay." But but I I I would I remember when I was really young walking in and hearing like the Salvation Army band and people singing and I remember getting the shivers just thinking these are these are these these hymns, these ancient Yes. songs. They they really connect us. And I I miss that. And I I think people I think people would return to religion if if if religion wasn't so [ __ ] up. Yeah. And and I think people, you know, the the church has to serve the people and and and not the other way around. And you know, the church presently, I don't know how many churches you'd have here in Austin, Texas, but I'd probably say if there's 276 different kinds of um churches, you know, it's it's just one church. It's just in 276 bits, pieces. It feels sometimes like it's at odds with science, but it's not. Science is the pursuit of truth. And so these are pilgrims, too. The great scientists are trying to crack the code of the physical world. The great theologians are trying to crack the code of the metaphysical world. And nobody knows. That's the thing about literalism. You know that beautiful thing in, you know, everyone has it at their wedding. Love is patient. Love is kind. We can roll over you. Love is this. Love is that. And then it goes faith, hope, and and love. But the greatest of these is love. And I remember talking with somebody and saying, "Well, why is love more important than faith? Why is love more important than hope?" And the clue is a few verses later where it says we see through the mirror darkly. But one day we'll see face to face. We know now in part, but one day we will know fully as we ourselves are known. You cannot be a fundamentalist and and not understand that that is an explanation to just realize that you can have faith, you can have hope, but love means you need love. We need love because we cannot be sure. Our certainties, our certainties, that's the scary thing. And you know, I trust a feeling as a musician. I trust it when I'm going, you know, to sing or to improvise. But they're not certainties. They're instincts. Yeah. And and I love that you feel that music is a still a communal place. Our festivals are amazing and and people people are deprived presently of of a place where they feel comfortable. I'm comfortable in the back of a cathedral. I'm comfortable at some what's your friend the the blues guy or you know a gospel church. I'm I'm I'm just I'm just looking for the spirit. Yes. Wherever I find it in a conversation I can feel it when it's happening where when we're having an honest conversation. You feel it. It's a It's a thing and I'm and I can put down my salesman and just have a conversation because the three on that inagram is probably my number. I because it's so excruciating. But um it's the salesman. I sell ideas as well as songs and I sometimes just have to just just shut up and listen. I think we're all those things just to varying degrees. And I think the spirit of the thing is what you're talking about. This intangible moment where everybody realizes they're in it. Whether it's in a church where they're sing or one of my favorite moments with you was on uh the Jimmy Fallon show singing Ordinary Love. Oh wow. I loved it. We played it on the podcast. when it happened uh the next day when it got out on YouTube, I I brought it in here and I go, "You gotta listen to this. This is just such an amazing rendition of a song because it's just you sitting on these chairs and Jimmy Fallon is next to you on the table like this." Is it here? What a beauty. We played this. I want to listen to it. Let's put this on. Put the headphones on. I [ __ ] love this version. [Music] wants to kiss the golden shore. The sunlight wants your skin. All the beauty that's been lost before wants to find us [Music] again. I can't find you anymore. You are fighting for the sea throws rocks together but time leaves us polished. We can't fall any further in. We can't feel ordinary love and we cannot reach any higher if we can't deal with ordinary love. [Music] Birds fly high in the summer sky and rest on the breeze. The same wind will take care of you and I. We'll build our house in the trees. Your heart is on my sleeve. Did you put it there with a magic mug? For our years, I would believe that the world couldn't wash us away. We can't fall any further. We can feel ordinary love and we cannot reach any higher if we can deal with ordinary love. We can fall any further. We can feel ordinary love and we cannot reach any higher if we can't deal with ordinary love. Oh yeah. Yeah. I love this part. Oh, come on. Falling further in ordinary love and we cannot reach any higher. We can't deal with ordinary love. We can't fight any further. We can feel ordinary love. We cannot reach any higher. We can't deal with her quest. [Music] Love you, too. Everybody, that is that is without a doubt hands down my favorite performance ever. ever on a talk show ever. Because it was so, first of all, it starts out so relaxed. You're just sitting on the couch and you're singing it and you're just so on it. You're so on it that everyone just gets captivated by it and then the music builds and then you bring in roots. It's [ __ ] phenomenal. And that's so like that is what we're talking about. That's like this moment that elevates people. It takes people out of their life and just this joy of expression all happening simultaneously with everybody in the crowd and every and then when you stand up and you start dancing and roots are playing who just washes over everybody. That is it's odd that you should should bring it up because I was sitting in a table with a couple of journalists um friends of a friend of mine this economist called David McWills. did love him. By the way, he's the guy who says uh the poor think in minutes, the the rich think in years. You know, they're kind of one of the one of us close. But anyway, sitting with a bunch of people and they're from London and this guy's going, "Yeah, he says Mc Williams here. He's all about you, too. He's all about you." Yeah. He hasn't got any of your [ __ ] records. I have your records. I've got all your records. I've [ __ ] gone off you, right? Gone right off you. That [ __ ] song, Ordinary Love. He's got a whatever glass in his hand and he's getting the the the Dutch and the British courage and the Irish courage and he's going that song about Mandela and all that. So, I listen to it. It's like [ __ ] nothing. And then I I I was watching Jimmy Fallon. and you played the same song. And he said I was in tears. He said it just something something happened. Yeah. So I look at it and I'm going dodgy haircut on the singer. But I am also being defensive because I can feel something too. There is something going on. That is the thing. And I and you two, you know, we're making an album at the moment and it has to be framed around that. Not that song, not that even style of songwriting, but that thing, the the the thing, the moment, the spirit, whatever that is. Yeah. And the conversation you're having with your audience, with somebody, a deep listener. By the way, that same woman who said about listening, she said deep listening is an act of surrender. And so it's coming full circle for me. Well, if you're in that audience, there's an act of surrender for sure. When and if you're an artist, if you're singing it. Yes. That's you have to. Yes. And everyone recognizes that. That's why it resonates. So, I mean, I I just think if we're a rock and roll band, there's four people in your band. There's nobody sounds like Adam Clayton, you know? I mean, there's nobody sounds like Edge. There's nobody sounds like Larry Mullen. And nobody wants to sound like me. No, no, there's I can sing. I can sing. And I'm becoming the singer I I am. And that's the reason I'm still in a band because we all have to answer that question, don't we? Why Why would we still be in a band? We've got to feel that it's our best album that's going to come. Yes. But if it is, it's going to be because we frame it around that moment in the room when that happens. Yes. I promise you. I can't deliver that. Promise you for every song on the album. I'll come back if you'll have me and I'll play you some of the the the the songs. But but but for the live rock and roll pieces, it has to have that. I recognize that. Yes. You could come back anytime you want. Well, by the way. Oh, thank you. Anytime. But yeah, that that that's what everybody wants out of entertainment, out of celebration. That's what everybody wants, these moments. Yeah. And that was a real moment, Matt. That was a real moment that resonated through the television. I couldn't imagine what it would have been like to be in that room. And I was thinking that like, God, I wish I was there because, you know, you see Will Smith and Will Smith's in the corner. You see him just taken over by the music like nodding his head like, oh my god. Just in that moment, it was so pure. Strange strange resonance. I don't know if it was mentioned, but he played Nelson Mandela. No, he played Muhammad Ali. He played Muhammad Ali. Right. Right. I got that wrong. That just would be funny. That would be funny. Yeah. But it was that that's what everybody's looking for. That's what everybody's looking for out of art, out of religion, out of just love and community. We're looking for these moments that elevate us above everything else. And there's a moment when a a a great performance like that. Just when everyone in the audience realizes what you're doing and we're all in it together and people at home are in it like that was so powerful. It re it's everything through the television is like 60% of what it is in person at the most. Well, he you know we we used to avoid um TV because it's actually Bruce Springsteen advice years and years ago. He said be careful of being on TV because people can turn you down. You know they can go off to the kitchen and you know make coffee. So he's kind of right about that. It can it can take away the mystery. But, you know, that that studio that he's in, um, Jimmy, you know, that's a historic place. You know, the Beatles or whatever, you know, think of all the artists that have been in on the So, there's something going on there. Oh, yeah. And and he he's he's a very beautiful spirit. He he just really He seems like it. I don't know him, but he seems like I've been out late night with him. I've been, you know, in in in all kinds of situations and is just a really a see-through heart, you know, trans transparent persons. Just you you see you see you see what he's thinking. Now, how he does that night after night, I will never know. Yeah. Like I'm I'm terrified going on those shows. This is easy for me because I'm talking. I don't do full stops and commas, but you know, I don't have to. You're not asking me to. I'm just having a conversation. But to be sharp and be on it. Yeah. I don't know if I'm going to be sharp or on it. And part of being in you too is I have to be true to my mood. And then I've have to allow the the song to take me somewhere else. And yeah, my my yeah, it's it's a funny thing, you know, yeah, this performing there's not much psychology written about being a being a being, you know, books about un about the psychology of a singer. Probably there is for comedians or No, there's barely forians. I think the problem is that only the people that can truly do it understand it, right? That's the problem. you know the problem and then you the the what you're talking about with confinement for the talk show format that's also what makes that moment so much greater is because you realize yes it's just it's it it's it doesn't belong there that that format is for hollow platitudes and selling a new television show and getting in and out before the seven minute commercial break it's a It's the worst way to have a conversation where you're going to get the most out of people because the most that you when you have time constraints on conversations, you immediately feel under the gun. So, you're kind of like tense and you're pressured and you don't know when and then and then the audience is staring at you and then there's bright lights. Everything is wrong. Everything is it's opposed to the way uh normal comfortable human conversation and connection works. M it works with silence around you and just people talking or in a pub or wherever you're at, you know, in a living room with friends at a party. Like that's the real human connection where it's open-ended and you're just talking soon as you like lock it down and then you know you have to lock it down for commercials and you you have to button this up and there's a new person coming in in five minutes so they got to shuffle you out the door and hold up your album and tell everybody to buy it and then you leave and like was that good? I guess it was good. It's like you know what I mean? It's I don't I never liked doing them. I always felt confined and I would never do standup on them. I was always asked to do standup on them. Like that's not where standup belongs. Like but if someone can pull it off like there's been great comedians that pulled off incredible Tonight Show sets like Richard Jenny and George Carlin. Who's your Yeah. Who's your favorites? I mean apart from I'm not going to ask you about your mates but people that you we were talking earlier about singer people that I just looked up to. Who were who were the ones that formed you? Well, when I was a child, I was probably I guess I was 15 or 16. My parents took me to see Live in the Sunset Strip in a theater and it was Richard Prior. He performed he did a concert special in the theater and I think it's his greatest performance. And when I was there in the theater, I was laughing so hard and I remember very clearly looking around at all these people and they were falling out of their chairs laughing. People were just falling back, slapping each other, going, "Oh my god, oh my god." Like they couldn't breathe. And I remember thinking, "This guy is doing this just talking." And I remember all the funny movies that I'd seen like Stripes and, you know, all the great comedies, Animal House, funny comedies. Nothing compared to this. And this guy's just talking. It was an incredibly profound moment for me. I remember I got obsessed with Richard Prior. I started buying Richard Prior cassettes. I would buy like whatever I could, you know, you could find them and I found a bunch that were like you had there were like weird printings of him at Red Fox's comedy club. I actually found them in a truck stop once. They were selling these cassettes. I was like, "What is this?" And then I I bought them and there were incredible performances, like 15 people in the crowd. He's just ranting and going on these like unhinged rants about things and just having fun and being really loose. And I just couldn't believe that someone could do that. That he could just by talking this theater filled with people were just falling down laughing and just blown away. So that was probably my first thought about standup comedy. My first real thought just how what a crazy power to have. Like what an unbelievable thing to be able to do with just your words. Yeah. I saw Robin Williams do that a few times. cuz I was in a room with him and I just he just couldn't not turn it off. It was just and it was wild. It was he he he was certainly not in control of it. And that's we there's a genius um comedian called Tommy Tieran. I don't know if you've seen him. I've heard him. He he again when he goes out and he doesn't go out often because I think it scares the shite out of him what he's going to say next. Yeah. And so that is the thing of having the material and then being able to blow, you know, just let go of the material. Yeah. That's I think must be part of this. Is it? Yeah. I mean I I don't know. I I am Yeah, it's part of it. Yeah. The these ideas they come to you and you just have to decide whether to embrace them or not. I don't. And you get yourself into such trouble. Yeah. Because you just you say the thing that you thought of. But the art is in fact being able to say the thing you've thought of. That's it's a strange one. Truly realized that. And I never had any aspirations of comedy whatsoever when I was young when I was in when I loved Richard Prior. I just loved it as a fan just like I loved rock and roll. I didn't want to be a singer. I just loved it. And then I saw Kenison. And I think that was the first moment where I went, "Oh, this is comedy, too. Wow. Okay. What is comedy?" You know, because everybody else had been like telling jokes or with prior it was like these stories of life that was so like revealing and so vulnerable but also hilarious like deeply fun just like so accurate in the caricatures of pe of people. And then there was Kenisonson. I was like okay this is comedy too. And the the first thing I ever saw of him I was actually introduced to him by a girl that I worked with a girl that I worked with at a gym. I worked at the Boston Athletic Club. I was a trainer. I was teaching people how to lift weights. And there was a lady who was a volleyball player who I was friends with that worked there. She worked the front desk. And she was like, I saw HBO last night. This comedian was so funny. And in the parking lot of this gym that we worked out, she did Sam Kenisonson's bit of homosexual necroiliacs paying a bunch of money to be with the freshest male corpses. Have you ever seen the bit? I have. So the bit is the guy, he goes, "Imagine this. You're at the end of your life, you know, you're lying down. You're like, "Well, I guess I'm dead now. I'm going to be alone with Jesus, and that's going to be great. I'm going to be in heaven." And hey, he starts rocking back and forth. What is this? It It feels like someone's got a dick in my ass. I mean, life keeps [ __ ] the ass. Even after you're dead, it never ends. It never ends. She's doing this impression. She's lying on the parking lot on her stomach going back and forth. And I'm dying laughing. I was like, I got to see this. So, my first introduction to Kenisonson was this friend of mine. Her doing it on the concrete. You did a That was good. It was amazing. You No, no, that you you're you doing her doing him. Oh, yeah. It was She did a great job. She had me howling. Who else? Uh, well, he was a huge one. Um, Eddie Murphy for sure. That was a huge one. Then again, that was also like I I still didn't think I was going to do standup until I saw Kenisonson. The fir when I first saw Kenisonson, that was when it was like maybe I can do because I had friends telling me to do it. But it was friends that I did martial arts with. So we would have to from the time I was 15 till I was like 21 22 all I did was travel around the country competing and I was with this such a wild combination if you don't mind me saying it's just like it it just the martial arts seems so unfunny you you you know you you were fighting for your life. It's very scary. So in the when it's terrifying like that and everyone's nervous that's when gallows humor comes in and I was the guy who m I always needed attention when I was young. So I was getting my attention from being really good at fighting but then I was also getting my attention around the also the people that were really good at fighting at being funny. So when we were all like you know a bunch of [ __ ] crazy people the their hobby was to travel around the country trying to kick people unconscious right? So, this is the job. This is the group that I'm hanging out with. And, you know, most of them were older than me. Uh, I was the youngest because I was in high school at the time. Most of these were grown men. And I was competing against grown men while I was in high school, which is another crazy thing. My instructor was hardcore. And he threw me to the grown men when I was 16. It was terrifying. But because it was so terrifying, I developed this way of releasing steam. And so my friend of releasing my way of releasing steam. I'd make fun of different guys that we trained with having sex like how he probably does it and this and that. And we were always just I was just always trying to crack people up. And I had one friend that I'm still really good friends with to this day, my friend Steve Graham, who talked me into doing standup. And I never thought I'm like you think I'm funny because you like me. I go but you're crazy too. Like you're a [ __ ] psychopath as well. Like you're you think I'm funny because you're doing the same thing that I'm doing. Like we're nutty people. We're not normal. Other people are going to think I'm an [ __ ] And then the when you walked out though, you tell tell me what how was he there when you walked out on the first time? Oh yeah, he was there the first night. Yeah. So So can you paint me the picture? I was at a comedy club. I was terrible. I went to open mic night. I did like five minutes. It was horrible. But I got a couple of laughs. I got a couple chuckles. And I I was like I got off stage. I was like, I think I could do this. The weirdest thing was like I had probably at that time I was 21 years old. I'd probably fought at least a hundred times. Wow. And I was way more terrified of doing comedy. Way more scared. Way more scared. Like fighting was scary, but I was like, I know it just has to start. Once it starts, I know what to do. Like the real fear of comedy or of fighting was before the fight. It was all the demons, all the the thing. Why am I doing this? Why are you doing fighting in the end? That's what you're fighting. You're fighting the fear. But I knew once it started, I wouldn't be scared at all cuz you don't feel fear when you're fighting cuz it's you're so in the moment. You're you're in the moment. You're you're zen. You almost don't exist, you know? You have to to operate at the highest level to have like instantaneous reactions and to be able to manage your pace and all these different things. You can't think about yourself or how you look or how you feel or whether your girlfriend's mad at you or whether you're going to fail out of high school. you have to be locked into what you're doing. So, I wasn't afraid of fighting. I was afraid of everything before fighting. I was afraid of feelings. And so, but that's where the comedy came from. The comedy came from like alleviating that, you know, and Right. So, there is a symbiosis there, you know. There's there's a thing in it. It's a task, a very complicated task. The way I describe fighting is it's highlevel problemolving with dire physical consequences. That's what it really is. You could call it fighting. You could think it's brutish and aggressive. Say that again. It might be the title of our new album. Highlevel problem solving with dire physical consequences. So, as as far as like sport, I just put meta in front of the physical consequences. Yes, we got ourselves an album. Yes. It's the most consequential of all all sports cuz when someone beats you, they don't just beat you, they take away everything you are as a man. When someone destroys you in in a competition, you are not a man anymore. You are significantly decreased in your value. Everything about you, you feel terrible. Is good. You were You are as good the day you walked in there confident and you still feel like [ __ ] where you felt like you could take on the world. You have the same skills. You're as good as you felt when you could take on the world. And now you feel like utter dog [ __ ] And yet we know that failing is how we succeed. You know the Samuel Beckett lines, fail, fail again, fail better. I may have failed to get the quote right, but it that's it. You know, fail, fail, fail better. The pain is fuel. The pain of failure is the most potent fuel, the most potent inspiration known to man. And the more terrifying the failure, whether it's failure in standup comedy or it's failure in that's very high stakes if you think about I'm just thinking this through the second both your chosen passions entail the risk of humiliation. Yeah, you have to have that. That's the only way you get better. Wow. That's the only way you really get better. It's tricky. Um super tricky. I my I my I my I my I my I my I my I my I my I my I my I my I grew up my best mate um since I was three years old. Um he just gave me my name my Bono he gave us all names but and his family names his genius really um painter became his painters father there was tough stuff going on on our street in their house and um he he grew up well they the father used to was kind of religious [Music] um extremist let's call it that. Used to humiliate the kids by putting a bowl on their hair on their hair and cutting their hair. So he'd walk around with these pudding bowls. So everyone would be like around be like a they were just so fast. They were all they could all look after themselves. And like the boy named Sue, it's it is the Johnny Cash song. Boy Named Sue. They are they and so good my mate. So I grew up sparring with him. This is this is how literally how we grew up and his so we watch all the boxing matches all what the obvious ones and he just really went into his obsession became mixed martial arts so he wants his kids he's you know they're going down to the gym and then my godson okay his name is Noah and he comes and this is not a joke this is not a joke so goodie my mate since I'm three years old comes up and he goes Oh. He says, "No, he's he wants to give up fighting, you know, cage fighting." And I said, "Oh, that's that's okay." I said, "What does he want to do?" He wants to be a doctor. And I'm like, "Googie, this is a really your kid wants to be a doctor and you're disappointed, but he could be such a great fighter." And I I said, "Gookie, he wants to be a doctor. This is a by the way, he became a doctor. This is not this story. That's how it ended. But I said and he but he but he was such a good fighter. I said why did he give up? He said he's down the gym. He said I can't even beat the best guy in the gym. If I can't beat the best guy in the gym, there's no point in me having a big career. He said the best guy in the gym was Conor McGregor and and he was a few years older. So it's and then two of his other kids are fighters now. Wow. So I've I've grown up around it and because of my mates and his and his kids and but that thing of of combat, being comfortable in combat is a thing you to be careful of because you can end up there. And sometimes I do well you see it's you because it's a art form for you. It's a it's a it's a it was a you know profession. It was a it's different. But people like me fight or flight is a problem because sometimes fight is on and I and there is no fight. Right. So that's part of the shut up and listen instructions I'm receiving from which is I'm kind of born that's with my fists up and and from whatever way just growing up and being around what I was around and experiencing what I experienced I have that and and and and even in the band I'm a bit like that and and so I've got to be careful Because it's not always somebody coming around the corner who wants to take you out and they might actually just want to take you out, right? You know, and it's it's not becoming of to be combative at all times. So, I'm I'm I'm learning to put my fist down. I'm learning to spend those times in the morning thanking God that I'm alive because I had a heart surgery as we talked about earlier and just waking up is great. Just like wow, I've just woken up. What a thrill. And I'm trying to get to that place with not with the world, but with myself. I've not made peace with the world. I certainly have not. But I am making more peace with myself which is sometimes a bit harder and and and the family and listening to them more and and and yeah that's that's that's it. This this combat thing is is interesting. Were you in in the neighborhood? I asked you earlier but were there people were is there people you can remember? Sure. from like like us being like on you competitive on me not from the time I started training once I started training I got very good very quick and I became kind of known for it people start picking because I was I was doing it at a in a crazy way it wasn't as simple as like oh he takes karate it's like no he on the weekends he's traveling around the country and fighting in tournaments you know and I' I was winning them you know so I was it I found a thing very early on that I could excel at that was scary that people and I realized through that thing. You can get good at anything. You just have to put your attention and focus to it. And well, when do you put your attention and focus to something the the most? Well, when your literal health relies on success. It was so scary that you couldn't halfass it. which is like I have a problem with things that involve too much personality and charisma where they could mask truth and I think this is the problem with evangelical preachers this is the problem with politicians and it could be anybody but it's like there's this siren call that will lead you to the rocks and it's believing your own [ __ ] and fighting was it It didn't matter what your personality was. It didn't matter. It's empirical. Yeah. It did. Nothing mattered. It didn't matter how many people liked you. If you get kicked in the head, you get [ __ ] up. And on the flip side of it, I used to love when I would go to someone else's hometown and they had all these people beating like cheering for them. All these people like, you know, you're going to [ __ ] them up. All these people cheering in the corn. I would love that. It was my favorite thing. My favorite thing. I was like, they can't help you. Do you have rage me now? No, I'm just when you're fighting I mean obviously my what we do in music is we try to turn rage into something beautiful and that's what rock and roll is the sound of you know I think it was Neil Young that said something like sound of revenge or something whatever it's rage for sure there's rage that's what separates certain bands you want to know what the difference between a pop band and a rock and roll bandage it's rage rage against the machine and you bet and And [ __ ] you, I won't do what you tell me. Yeah, we we we had that and that that was that was coming through me and and I had to So I'm just wondering where you Where did you get that rage from? Or or maybe you didn't have it. I mean, I'm told by some people that it's like Mike Tyson had rage, but some boxers, you know, they didn't. They could they could they thought it made them weak. It it Well, it gets in the way of clear thinking. And you know, I had this guy named Yuri Prohaskca on the podcast recently. He's brilliant fighter who's in the UFC who is the light heavyweight champion at one point in time and is still one of the top light heavyweights in the world. And we were talking about anger and rage and that it leads you down a bad path of decision making when you're fighting. It interferes with the flow. It interferes with the way. And like I was saying before, when you're competing, you know, and I've never competed at that level. When you're competing at a world championship level, anything that [ __ ] with your mind, anything where you're doubting yourself or talking to yourself or all that is resources that is being allocated towards something that's completely useless as opposed to being like completely in the moment and in the zone. If you get taken out of it for a moment, if they feel for a moment that you're thinking like you're looking for a way out, you're looking to quit, you're gone. You're done. Like when your friend was saying that his son didn't want to be a fighter anymore, this is my advice always. Whenever someone says, "I'm thinking about stopping fighting." I go, "Quit. Quit right now." Because somewhere out there, there's someone who's not thinking about stopping at all. They're going to [ __ ] you up. They're going to come for you. It's going to they're going to it's going to be terrifying. You're locked in a ring with Mike Tyson and you've been thinking about getting a regular job. Like, yeah, you're [ __ ] You're [ __ ] because there's allin people. In my opinion, I I love fighting, but I think only all-in people should be fighting. And the moment you're not allin, get out. You got to get out because the difference between an all-in person and a one foot out the door person is enormous. It's enormous. Even if skill level is similar, the the person who's allin is a terrifying person. They they all they want to do is this one thing and they're completely focused on it. Just being the best in the world, this one thing. They're gonna find holes in you. They're gonna find they're going to find your weaknesses. They're going to push you in a way that maybe you didn't push yourself as far in the gym. So, come the second round, come to third round, you start breaking down, and they're not breaking down at all. They're breaking you down. It's a terrifying place to be when you know you're not all in and the other person's all in. So, anybody, if that was my son, he's like, I'm thinking about quitting. Like, good. Quit. That's what I'd say. Quit. Find something else you love. Find what you love. You don't have to do this. But if you're going to do this, you got to you got to only do this. This has to be your [ __ ] life, right? Your [ __ ] life. I mean, I don't want you to be a rock star and a fighter. Shut the [ __ ] up. You can't be both. It's not possible. If you want to do that thing, that thing is your whole life. There's a I don't have any uh tattoos, but if I did, Kind of amazing you got this far without no tattoos. Now if I did it it's I have a um there's a quote it's from Nietze and I wouldn't normally quote from Nietze you know I'm not that interested in Nichze but I he's done he's written some some some apherisms that I like and whatever but in our summer place where we go to there's a little trail called the Nietze trail and it's he apparently came up with this mind which is for anything truly great to take place there requires and this would be my tattoo a long obedience in the same direction. Oo that's good. So so that's so and I think of edge when I think of that. I don't think of me. I'm I'm sort of I'm just I'm I'm I just my in I'm just my curiosity just takes me into place I shouldn't be. But that long obedience in the same direction that's that's what you're talking about. Yes. Um does it reply to people to tickling? I always wonder would it be great if you're I think the biggest fighter ever and just little tickle and um it's like maybe that's that's I don't think that would work. I think people would have already tried that totally unaffected. Got to do it. You're so filled with adrenaline field tackles. Yeah, you're sparked out. Do you know there was a comedian called Ken Dodd I remember from Liverpool when I was a kid growing up. He had he had a he had a a feather. He used to just tickle people. I'll get the tattoo. You get the you get the the feather. The feather is awesome. Oh, it is a funny thing. It that quote is so accurate. It's it's one of the greatest quotes of all time. I think it's a strong quote and and it's you know it's a person who was he was pushing away higher the even the concept of higher consciousness for a lot of his life and yet he managing to bump into it. There's a quote of his I swear I I had read but when we were doing the book we couldn't find it anywhere so I might have made it up but he was he was because that's the history of that in our family. Jamie will find it. Um, well, it's not it's it's a Jamie, it's it's it's about friendship and I don't think it's I don't think so. But it's the idea is that friendship is it is is deeper kind of wider. It's less dramatic um than you know romantic love, but it is it's it's somehow the essence of great relationships is is actually friendship. I think that's niche, but we couldn't find it. So, I I may have just made it up. Got though love be deeper, friendship is more wide from like Chronicles of Narnia. Oh, I'll take that, too. Something like that. Thank you, Jamie. I'll take it. My dad was funny. Um, he he used to quote this playright, Irish playright called Sing. You say about because he was suspicious of nationalism because in Ireland, you know, you would be because there was a country was nearly at civil war and along sectarian lines. So he used to say Ireland what is Ireland but the land that keeps my feet from getting wet. I thought that's a great quote of sings. So when we did the book surrender book was on. So they went off they couldn't find it anywhere. They couldn't find the quote anywhere cuz he made it up. Wow. And and it's a great quote and I think it's okay if you say something three times it's yours. Right. Yeah. So I'll but you know I'm in a band with my friends and that friendship is pulled and pushed and it's difficult and at some point one of us is usually trying to break up the band but it's a very deep bond. Can I say something about that I thought was really great about the film as well. We went into the fact that it's a true democracy in your band. Yeah. It's annoying, isn't it? But it's but I would expect nothing less from you when when you said that and I wasn't aware of that. I was like, of course, of course that's how you would set it up. Well, we well it's fine to be a democracy, but we share things also e the economics. Yes. That's where you find exactly and and we had a manager Paul McInness for most of our life and it was one of these things he said just don't ever be fighting about whose song it is and cuz in the background it's like I want my song on the album or I've got two just get rid of that. Yeah. Just share everything and make sure that you all feel a stake in each other. Yes. And and so the arguments in you two are never about well this is my idea so you're really stepping on my toes. We've developed I would call a sort of band ego bigger than individual egos. Even an ego as big as mine it this is bigger. This is even bigger. And uh it's the quiet ones. But um yeah, I think we we've learned to just the great we don't we don't argue about what's very good. Sorry, we do argue about what's very good. We don't argue about what's great. So if we're talking about is that good that chorus? Nah, that guitar. N you. But it's all for a purpose. We're all just talking about it. We never But when it's great, people just back off. We just know. It's like greatness has its own what's the word has its own brings with it a certain acquiescence to that thing and then you learn that very good is the enemy of greatness. It's not even nextdoor neighbors like we we used to be with you two we were really crap or great but then we got very good very dangerous being very good is not helpful because there's a chasm chasm between what is very good and great greatness what you were talking about there back on on Jimmy Fallon that's a moment of greatness it it's it's it's Not which is different from saying we were great. It was great and and very good could be just sitting there playing the song good. It's it's a very fine song and these are very fine players but that could just be very good. It didn't make that moment that that resonated so deeply with me that I brought it up. We we played it multiple times on this podcast over the years. I I'm I'm really happy you did. And and that's what the my friend I forget his name or my friend that I just met for the first time at the kitchen table uh who was who had you know had the guts to say he so disappointed because this the recording of that song was just very good. That's really what he was saying. Yes. Yes. you hadn't captured like but I think that unique moment of the way you guys did it is what made it so special is cuz you know Jimmy Fallon's sitting there and Will Smith is sitting there and you're just on these chairs and you're singing on the chair and so you're moving on the chair and then eventually everything picks up and you're standing up and dancing and the whole crowd like felt it. It was like this buildup to it. It all flowed together, but it just I haven't seen that back, by the way. So, really? No, no, I haven't seen it. I probably saw it on the night or the next day. Wow. So, I haven't um uh I sent that to everybody. Yeah, I sent that to all my friends when as soon as it came out online. I was like, you got to see this. This is Thank you um for for that. But there might be something to do with the fact that the four members of that band feel equally involved in that song. M there might be and that the the democracy which is such a pain in the hole um is actually one of the reasons that when you two walks onto a stage people tell me even if they're not bands you know they just come along as guests the hairs come up in the back of their neck and I explain actually that happens to us too it's a strange thing when we walk out. And it seems to me, I haven't figured this out, that the the whole the universe conspires to break up great relationships, right? You fall in love, it's romantic. It's because this this is families now. This doesn't have to be your partner in life, your wife, your husband, your but families, kids, everything. It's it's just the whole world is just seems set against it them surviving you know all the it just pulls at it's like gravity itself you're resisting and so when you manage to get through it and you're standing there in the forest and there's something going on that feels like you've resisted gravity or whatever forces that pull you apart. There's something about it and some nights it's really not easy and but I mean not the music but the the friendship and but we we we've we're through it right now and you you feel it in these recordings and you'll feel us in a way rediscovering each other. That's amazing. I haven't been playing for that. We just played in London acoustically at the Ivor Nollas Award was the first time in five years the four of us played together because Larry had a back injury and um so but yeah, there's something in the chemistry. Well, there's also the fact that you guys continue to create because one of the things that happens to great bands is they become a prisoner to their old songs. Yeah. We got to be bit careful there. Yeah. a lot of bands like Ordinary Love. That's what's so beautiful because that's in the last is that that's like 10 years old or something. Something along those lines. Yeah. Which is a mere a mere a minute if you've been around for we'll be around I think the first time we met in Larry's kitchen is it will be 50 years next fall. Wow. In the kitchen. Wow. Oh, drummer wants musicians, whatever. We got We're literally and in the in the film, you know, we've got the the uh kitchen table. We got the chairs, you know, cuz I'm on the road with, you know, 250 Mac trucks and a space station and whatever else with you, too. But here, you could put everything into a station wagon. It's like a literally a table and chairs. And the chairs are Edge, Adam, and Larry. and and I've got to, you know, I use the the kitchen table as operating theater. So, it starts with the s heart surgery. It's the it's the um hospital bed where I my father says goodbye with the to me with the exploitive and um and it's and it's the kitchen table where all operas really begin in the kitchen, don't they? It's like you're sitting there and in our case it would be me, my father, my brother, mother's passed and we're just it's just male rage in its different shapes and forms. So I get to to be on the road with a table and chairs, but then I get to bring out the chair. There's Larry. Uh yeah, there's Edge. There's Adam. I introduced them as chairs and it was it was amazing for me to have that experience of of doing things and telling their story. If their memoirs come out, I'm [ __ ] But but no, I really am. But it's over [Music] and I'm done with the past. I'm not sure the past is done with me, but I'm doing my very best to deal with the past in order to get to the present to make this the sound of the future. So the songs on the next album when you are or whomever you're with or your kids or whatever are out the Joshua Tree or whatever it is park or at the lake here in Austin, Texas and you're listening to our new album that we will take you somewhere because it has to be these songs have to be they have to be everything or what's the point, right? What is the creative process for you when you are when you have a concept for a song, when you have an idea like how does it work? Do you do ideas just come to you? Do you sit until they come to you? Do you sit in front of a a pad and write them down? Is it that has never been an issue? like Edge and Myself are the sort of song starters and and I mean he has I think we were counting them up the last time he like 526 uh he said qu 526 songs I have here I said Edge they're not songs they're ideas and he goes this one's a song and I go oh yeah that might be and and I will have and have stuffed in my phone and in paper and Air India sick bags and whatever else I've written my life and the glimpses that you get and I don't write out of misery which is great because I know some people have to be really miserable before they write I write out of joy a lot of the time sometimes I'm I'm writing my way out of a situation but but most times I'm writing my way into something and and especially with this next album, I just think the world needs it needs some needs some Yeah. some wild guitar music, but it also does not need the blues, right? We're in the blues right now. Yeah. And um Well, we're in danger. We're in danger. But you you did say on one of your recent podcasts you were saying hold on a second still more people got access to water and heat and or air conditioning than have in the history of the planet. So we got got to keep we just don't want to lose that perspective and we don't want to you know this incredible thing in in 20 years if you think about it. I mean maternal mortality halved more than halfd and people coming out of extreme poverty some of this is China some of this is capitalism some of this is that but it's I do I don't want to lose the sense of the next chapter could be our best and and that's going to need vision. Yeah. And I'm not talking about you two's new album, but but that is part of it because art changes the collective consciousness of a civilization and songs that really deeply resonate with young people that have a that that are great songs that also have a message and carry with them conversations that people have about the songs and about what's going on in the world. It shifts consciousness. It shifts consciousness in a positive way. Those young people may grow up to become people that aren't corrupt politicians, that aren't corrupt congress, that that don't give in to the lobbyists and the special interest groups, but really look out for their constituents and they they get into it for the right reasons because everybody's going to be co-opted if you don't. But you're right. Yeah, we better be good then. Um, and you and I, for me, the go-to group was the Beatles. And Mhm. And I I had this moment where Paul McCartney um picked me up at John Lennon Airport. He was driving the car and brought me and kind of showed me where the different neighborhoods of the Beatles and which was an amazing experience. And he'd stop and he'd say, "Oh, this is where this happened and that's and he said, "Do you mind me telling you this?" And I'm like, "Are you kidding me?" And and then he stopped at the traffic lights and he said, "Oh yeah, that's where I had like our first real kind of conversation, you know, with with me and John." I said, "Hold on a second. I'm a bit of a Beatle student. Didn't you have that when you were in the Quarry Men and such?" He says, "No, no, no, no. It was different level." He bought a bar of chocolate and after the war, you know, chocolate was really hard to come by. you know, it was kind of a real luxury. And and he bought the bar of chocolate and he didn't give me a square. He broke it. Cadbury's milk chocolate. Broke it in half. And I said, "Oh, so you're into sharing, too?" He said, "Yeah." And he said, "I don't know why I'm telling you that." And he drove on. And I just thought, "Oh, I know why you're telling me that." Greatest collaboration. Not just in music, in the history of music, maybe the greatest collaboration in the history of culture started with half. Wow. They shared, they gave it my mate Gogi, who I just spoke about the who knows all about you and knows all about your your your sport. He taught me everything he had and and they came you know it was tough at times as I told you in their house and he just gave me half of it. Every he got just half. So when I were in you two and our manager McInness says you should share everything. I was like yeah I've been sharing everything. I've been sharing everything anyway and it's and even now age and myself we're sitting in our house in our we we share this place in the south of France. We've been there for 30 years. All our families kind of grown up there. French are too into themselves to bother us which is really the way we like it. And um and we sit there and we think the real owners are going to come, right? You know what I mean? because we still we still don't really believe this has happened to us. And you know what? I think that's probably right because we don't really own this stuff. You you you you get it for a short period and then you hand it on. I think it I think something about the four and the way we share is in the sound of our music. I think is that too No, no, no. I think you're dead. I think that when you you know and I was just standing there with a little tambourine Jimmy found and he's but it's him playing the tambourine and and yeah there's something again there's not much scholarship about this type of stuff that you can read up on but it resonates right you can feel yeah I believe it I think there's something to it it's it's a you've got you've made decisions that have sort of affirmed this commitment to a higher goal. It's not a hierarchy of, you know, who's who's the lead singer, who's this, who's that. It's not who's the big star. It's just we're all together to do this thing. I'm in a band where every member of the band thinks they're the leader. And I think that's every band. And uh I mean that and I voted for this. Yeah. and and it's sort of great and I think it's worked out you know and you guys are still together you know which is also a giant win you know I mean that's most difficult run out of road any minute but but whilst whilst we're whilst we're running down the road it's it's a it's a it's a thrill I think that's also what makes it great is the same feeling that some the real owners are going to come like like you never really buy into it even though it's you And that's that's real that I think we all should have that. And I think if you lose that, you're in trouble. By the way, I think we should all have that. I I think that that's right. I call this uh I'm going to learn some of this from my wife. He used to say, "Don't, you know, look up to me. Don't look down at me as a woman. Look across to me. That's where I am." Okay? And there was a lesson in that about horizontal relationships rather than vertical ones. I I don't have a boss. I don't want to be a boss. Yes. I'm in I I have that relationship with the band that is equal. I have it with my mates. And it's just I it's just the way I I know it to be the most efficient. And you know, the boss is the boss. I mean, Bruce, it's an amazing thing what he does. And it's it's his vision and he's found a team around him to help him realize his vision. It's like you going out on on the boards, you write your own material. It's your point of view. That's not I'm I'm part of I think isn't there two stories they say in the cinema? There's the the gang and the man against stranger comes to town I think is one that's and then there's the stranger goes off in the Odyssey but usually there's a gang that's that's a different story that's a third story maybe I'm in the gang. Yeah, comedians are in a gang, too. Uh, we're in a gang at a club. We're in a gang together. Like, we all convene together. And I mean, I I mean a gang in terms of like a collaborative gang, too. We work together. We work on ideas together. We talk about bits together, you know, especially at my place at the Comedy Mothership. It's set up like that. The whole club was set up entirely for comedians. Completely different pay structure than any other club. Pays way more than other clubs do. The comedians get most of the money. We get most of the most of the we get the money from liquor essentially. Liquor and a small percentage of the ticket sales, but most of it goes to the comics. And the the the vibe of the place is not that it's my place. The vibe is that this is our place. I I paid the bill, but I shouldn't have had that much money in the first place. It's ridiculous. Like the whole thing is crazy. Like that you could do something like this. And if you could do something like this, you're supposed to. If you're the person that for whatever reason the universe has blessed you with a lot of zeros, throw it at something fun, let's do it. And so it's ours. And so there's there's that in comedy, too. Yeah. You can't Well, it sounds glib actually as I say it, but you know, I've live we live. You can't outgive God. No, it's like, you know, you just the more you the more you that's and that's what I was saying also about the blessing on America. You know, one of the things I do like about some some of these churches is not the ones that put pressure on you, but you know, people will give some cash every week to help with what's going on, you know, in far away places or whatever, and they tithe. I think they call it tithing. And and it's it's just part of the blessing of America. It's this Okay. So it's it's it's it's it's less than 1%. It's half of 1% of the government budget to keep all these people alive all over the world. They love America because they love America. They're not going to be a problem for America. They don't love it. Takes them away from terrorism. Takes them away from anti-Americanism. It takes them puts points them in direction of freedom. That's a blessing. So if you count your zeros and you say that's mine, that's ours. We're not sharing that with those people. The definition of neighbor is, oh, it's just next door, right? Be careful because because there is a bigger blessing out there. There's just a bigger blessing and and it most certainly is and you it sounds like you're in it and and and and it is in the bit, by the way, it is in the business where you'll see it because people have have a a great mouth on them. I have a big [ __ ] mouth. But it's not about what you're talking about. It's what you're doing. It's how you're living. It's how you It's That's the YouTube thing is not just about the songs. It's the It's the way. You did you use the word way a minute ago? You said it's the way when you're fighting. Yeah. The anything that takes you away. Sure. What is What did you mean by that? There's a great quote by Miiamoto Mousashi. This is the guy I actually have tattooed on my right arm. It's once you understand the way broadly, you can see it in all things. Beautiful. Yeah. And the the concept is he was the greatest samurai that ever lived. He killed 60 men in one-on-one combat with swords. He got to the point where he was killing people problem. He was killing people so easily he decided to stop using swords and he would like fashion a wooden sword out of an ore from a boat on the way over to go kill a guy. So like googie he he was an extraordinary human being but he wrote a book on strategy called the book of five rings. Yeah. And go read no show the book of five rings. And it's this book is all about where is he from? Japan. All about how you from the 1400s. You you had to be balanced in everything to be a great warrior. You had to be great at calligraphy. You could you had to be great at poetry. You had to be an artist. You you had to be able to meditate. You you had to be balanced. You had to know the way. And don't let any [ __ ] This is the modern interpretation. Don't let your ego Don't let other people's perceptions. Don't let insecurities in. Don't let any of these things in. Stay on the way. And the way is like this way of thought that once you how you know everybody says how you do anything is how you do everything. This was his earliest version of it. Wonderful. Once you understand the way broadly you will see it in all things. It's that nichi this path to greatness. Once you realize what that is, like, oh, this is this is this intense focus and dedication to something that could be applied to anything. You could be apply you could apply it to being a better father. You could apply it being to being someone who writes books. You could you could apply it to music. You could apply it to anything. But it's that's what it is. It's like finding what the thing is and throwing the essence of you at that thing. Like really doing it. And to do that correctly, you can't have, you know, macho issues. You can't have insecurity pro things that you're compensating for. You you have to be pure. You have to find and it's a constant struggle. It's a stunning stunning insights in my path or I suppose or whatever you call them my practice. I have this I am the way, the truth and the life. this what I learned from Jesus become a bumper sticker probably taken the the the meaning of it away but it's but it's the same thing I've got to because when I focus on this this kind of this this radical idea to serve you know you know to rather than to lead to to be no greater love and all all this stuff. Unfortunately, this language has been ruined for you guys. I'm so sorry. Kind of. But no, we can get past that. It's powerful. Yeah, it's real. And it's and and this this Jesus is a long way from the one that you you meet on these kind of sales programs and but it's it's it is humility and it is it is it is service and it is discipline and it is not my will thy will. It is indeed surrender and anyone wherever they are in the world, Japan in 1400s or the 15th century wherevery uh anyone scientists you know the pursuit of truth it just gathers there's um yeah there's there's the there's there's something about I trying to think of the word the sort of gathering where you you you we we will all end up in the same place if we're really tr and I'm not talking about life after death as like you have to you know enter a competition but we all we're we're in the same consilience I think is the word I think it was I think it was I don't know who wrote I wrote a book called consilience but it's the idea that all disciplines all art forms everything comes together on a point a kind of convergence but the word is consilian And if it isn't, I just made up a great word. It's a great word. Go, Jamie. Well, that that those moments that were That's the book where great art hits that peak. Oh, really good. Thank you. That's really good. Jamie's the best. How did you not off? How long have I been talking? I mean, three hours because I this I mean I don't know why you this my family at this point will be gone to bed. It' be just the two of us at the fire. Jamie's locked in. Jamie's locked in. Like, see you later, dude. That thing though is like what we all It's what we we know how hard it is to reach, too. Like ordinary love. Like when you guys were doing that, we know that that's not a first take, you know? That's not like you just wrote the song and you guys are out there jamming. No, that's that's a polished song. And the fact that you're doing this and you're you're you're you're doing it acoustic right there sitting on a chair like everything is off, right? Like you're not on the stage. There's not a spotlight on you. There's no mist. There's no lights. Like all the theatrics are removed. You're in a brightly lit studio sitting down with a bunch of people beside you, which is like the most un rock and roll thing of all time, right? It's corporate almost. Like no one does that corporate haircut. And yet you [ __ ] nailed it. And it that moment it took everybody to a better place. That's what we're all hoping for in in everything that we're hoping for that for our from our leaders. We're hoping for that one speech, that one JFK speech where you just go, "Oh my god." Yes. That's that's that's the prayer. We don't want to be Clinton when he was young, he had some bangers. Obama when he was young, they had these speeches that made us feel better about human as human beings, better about the country. That's the danger of the conflicted times that we're in is that people don't feel good even about America. There's people that think that the American flag is a symbol of injustice. It's like it's that's a crazy thought. Like America is you too. It's not just you too, the band, but it's all it's it's us. It's all of us human beings regardless of your political ideology. And we got to think of that first. We're a community. We're a neighborhood. you know, we we should think of ourselves as a giant neighborhood, and we don't. We we think of ourselves as opposing tribes that are in in this battle to stay in control of whatever the direction of the country is. And it's being orchestrated by artificial intelligence bots that are constantly battling with people online and state actors and intelligence agencies and money and all this [ __ ] is together and it's all confusing everybody as to what is the purpose of being a human being that's alive with other human beings. The per the purpose is community communing. We're supposed to be a United States. We're supposed to be a community and all the differences that we have, the political differences in the idea, they should be so [ __ ] secondary that it should be uh a small part of the elections. A small part of the election should be policy because we should just all agree that we should figure out you want to have a good use of AI, figure out what's the objective best use of resources to support the collective whole and how does that get accomplished? How does that get accomplished without fraud and waste? And what's the best way to to navigate where it doesn't have fraud? That should be done whether it's Democrats or Republicans. It should be like, what are we looking for? We're looking to clean up the lakes. We're looking to stop pollution. We're looking for clean energy sources. We're looking for education. We're looking for healthcare. We're looking for housing. We're looking to get people off the streets that have mental health issues. And get them help. And don't just give them fentinel and give them money for needles. That's stupid. Don't let them camp on the street. That's stupid. Also stupid ignoring them, right? That's stupid, too. So, some real resources. And once we do that, we can all do better. The whole country can do better. We'll be less at each other's throats. There'll be less anxiety. It could be accomplished. But we have to address the the primary factor in this country for crime and horrible behavior. It's completely disenfranchised neighborhoods. It's areas that have been [ __ ] since the 1940s and they're no they're not doing anything to change them and no one's pouring any resources to try there's no plans to try to revitalize these communities and elevate these people out of like dire poverty and gang violence and and and drug use. There's there's a way to do it. It's not impossible, but there's no resources put out it at all. That should be another thing. That shouldn't be a Republican thing or a Democrat thing. And why should we spend money on them? But it shouldn't be. It should be community. Look, the people who who voted for Donald Trump, who I'm not a fan of, and I know you have respect for him, and I I respect that. But the people who voted for him, I have immense respect for them and their sense that they felt left out of the American dream. a lot of people and in so many ways when you know the world got globalized and a lot of people did very well out of that particularly in the global south but everyone in America I think you know a lot of people a lot of communities paid the price for that and I don't know what the pie was grown for NAFTA I think was supposed to be a trillion dollars it ended up being the pie was was I think it was one and a half trillion So there was enough money to reinvest in communities, but it never happened. And so people were pissed off if if and and I'm and I think we should be with those people. I'm not sure this is going to be the answer that they're looking for. And if it's not, I would encourage people, yes, I'm not American. I can I I don't vote. I'm Irish. just you'll know the I I trust in the wisdom of crowds. I really do. I mean I mean you too and I you know Americans will know and they and they and they must I I can see where they're going right now. They're trying out this new version of themsel and where it's where we're where where we're not interested in the wider world as much. We're trying to fix our own problems. I would say they are bound up in each other and I would say there's a higher purpose for America than the one that's being offered presently. But I don't want to get into the politics. I think it's an overcorrection. Yeah. I think I just don't you know I I really hope so because we really really really need you. the world. We need America and this this European project we we have a land war on the outskirts of Europe. It is the most astonishing thing and and it and we don't know what's next. Poland, have you ever you know the Polish people have two million Ukrainians staying with them and never complain these are the most remarkable people you'll ever meet. There's all that money that was invested in by guess who? George C. Marshall, a an an American general who became Secretary of State who had the cleverness to say after the the war the second world war and I think it was like 4% of the GDP where it's invested in in the rebuilding of Europe and the idea was we have to make Europe succeed and that's how we will defeat communism. And so when Ronald Reagan, you know, pronounced a death sentence on this the Soviet Union and the reason Mikuel Gorbachoff threw his hands up and and said we've got to this project is over is because he knew that people could see it was dysfunctional. He knew that was a better life across the wall, the other side of the Iron Curtain. And sometimes it takes putting your money where your mouth is to show what freedom is. America did that. We owe America. And and we need you. That's all I want to say. We we need we we need you. And and together. Wow. There's 450 million people in Europe. It's like, you know, we don't be fighting with the Canadians, the Mexicans here, right? You put all this together, this is formidable. And these boring people who are listening to your probably tuning in now what they think. They said something about the goods country like it. And and he hit the mushroom. It's like you wouldn't know. You've never been lifted by music, sir. You know, you know, you wouldn't know. You send people to death. build some baloney up the bum. This is like come on. It's like you come in. Your time's up. And I, you know, I know we want to rewrite history and all the rest of it, but but you can't do that. We are free people. And it is great to be free. And I I I don't want to stop singing songs about freedom. I want to be it. And that's what we talked about earlier. That's I think as human beings there's a constant struggle. I think there's a constant struggle to find the path and I think we go through a series of overcorrections and a series of going really far left and really far right and you know order disorder reorder. That's a Richard Roars thing. It's part of the battle of good and evil. There's there's a thing that's Well, do you believe there's good and evil? I do. I do. I I believe it. But I I think it's naive to think that if evil acts occur, there is no true evil. I think it's naive and evil acts are undisputable and the concept of evil has always existed. I I I think there's and we can become part of it. You've seen it outside a pub when people the somebody's down, kid goes down, people are just kicking. You've seen it at a football match. Well, probably in American football you you don't, but in in Europe, in football, in soccer, you see mad violence and it's like a spirit. You can watch it in a crowd. Yeah. And and it's we've, you know, look, we've we've all been part of it. None, it's not like we're separate from it. We can It's an entanglement, right? But rarely is evil so obvious. this great um there's a great book by by Bulgakov called The Master in the Margarita. Have you heard about this? No. So, the devil appears in the rooftops of Moscow and he goes, "Oh, this is going to be fun. Nobody believes I exist." It's one of the great The Stone Sympathy for the Devil. I think that's inspired by him. But this it's some it's insidious. Sometimes evil is harder to spot. But I think we know we we kind of know it when we when we see it at full force. We just can't be afraid of sounding foolish. No. And when you say that e I think evil is a real thing. You you can you can't measure it. You can't prove it exists. But you know that's what I say. You know but science you know science we we need science. We don't need science to prove that evil exists. We we need religion to suggest it that it exists and how we might deal with it and in ourselves first I would suggest you were talking about fighting the biggest opponent you it would appear is your is indeed yourself. You're up against yourself. I've got to that place and I'm not a sportsman competent but just in my own walk I really is wow all these people I thought I was you know I was up against you know in my head it's it's yourself yes I love this thing of the way I'm going to remember that and I love the truth and and I love I love I love I love being alive I love the life I'm going And I'm I'm going to hold on to that. Please do. And keep doing whatever you're doing, man. I appreciate you very much. Thank you. Thank you for coming here. It was a lot of fun. Absolutely. Loved it. And absolutely. I enjoyed it. [Applause] [Music]