[Music] namaskar and welcome to this edition of weekly dialogues in jeopardy logs and I have professor Subash talk with me of Smosh caucus the Regents professor of computer science in University of Oklahoma history water you know also a visiting professor of computer science in JNU and he is also a member of Prime Minister's science technology and innovation Council we have had a few dialogues earlier with Asha namaskar and welcome to our table Namaskar glad to be a part of your show thank you very much and you've written a lot on the history of science history of science in general and particularly in history of science in India and history of science in India is something that we learn from you and it really encourages a lot of people and gives them a lot of self-confidence ah one particular aspect of science that is physics it's something that you have written about you've even written a book called mind and Method and that deals with Rishi cards why shake Sutra so would you like to enlighten our audience as to how far back is the origin of physics in India well Santa gee glad that you brought up Kannada and vishesha sutra the sixth options that we have you know you have the papers and and you have the coop evaders the bed hangers and this and that then you have the six sessions the sixth darshan is one of them is vaisheshika and on the other side we have me I which means logic where she's chica is the vishesh properties that we encounter so it's that's physics because where do we see the Shh properties or special properties these are properties of matter properties of things around us which is physics and then of course you also have Russians Sankhya which are the various thought was which constitute reality and yoga which means how how does it all constitute together in our being and then Porvoo me Mansa which is you know what we do in our relationship with the world and then othor me monster or radon so these are different ways first at first step you approach reality and then you have the various Shastras which did all kinds of stuff like botany and Ayurveda listen that so you had all kinds of Sciences which we're a part of our Sanskriti and we seem to have forgotten India is truly a cells ation of science and it's a science not only related to the outer but also to the inner in which it's unique which is the reason why the and the entire world is still coming to India to understand the mystery of consciousness which is the very frontier of all of science now let me go back to bash the shape mushishi is as I said it's about vishesha the vitiation properties that thinks I am Kannada did something amazing he says look there are two triples associated with the physical reality one is the triples of things that we see and where you have various padarthas or substances and they have various ganas which have their own specific properties and then they have clear which is their motions so he says as far as the outer world is concerned you should be able to explain away everything in terms of padartha guna and crea which is absolutely modern in modern science or modern physics says that you should be able to describe all properties based on atoms and their properties and properties of elementary atoms and their motions right so a molecule for example is atoms protons neutrons electrons etc etc so Kannada said this of corridors ago you know amazing how early on but then he said that how we make sense of this outer reality is through another triple you know all of Vedas is three Vidya triples boo boo ha ha ha right earth atmosphere and the Sun or the body the under my coach the prana my coach and the man of my course you know if you look within again it triple so what cannot said is you have this triple of samanya which is universal vishesha which is particular particular properties some money is universal properties such as and cannot says that look and adamant I knew must be spherical because looking at from any direction it should be the same it's a universal law you know this is one of the deepest intuitions of modern physics is universality and that's what samanya is Samanya vishesha and summer by summer why is this interface of the experiencing self which is our mind and the outer reality because all of the outer reality is experienced in our minds so where is their semantics take place and this is this fundamental comes up for quantum mechanics itself that it's through the interaction that properties become apparent in I even I haven't written it and something needs somebody needs to do some further and this is a fit of their idea of summer why because it truly conveys this counter intuitive notion that it's through interaction that one obtains understanding of reality because before interaction is something else and and so you had Kannada speak of this and you also spoke of four different kinds of of atoms you know I was very disappointed a few months ago I downloaded the ninth grade and see our key text book on physics and it has a chapter on atoms and the very first paragraph it describes it mentions kannada and shaker but it's it describes it incorrectly and I'm shocked that the editors of that volume they have not are not aware of Canada's shake sutras and did not double check to see what they were writing was true was accurate so what it says is that Canada somebody made it up obviously Canada says there should be a new because as you keep on dividing subdividing matter the smallest element that would be or the smallest part that would be is the unknown totally false that's not what cannabis is but cannot says is there are four different kinds of onion corresponding today mohab butas and the Bupa hookahs are pretty we appease water teachers betweens fire and value which is the fourth one and the fifth is our cash so I called corresponding to these four you have the p3 our new day Appa a new the pages are new and the value on the first two have masks the first one gives a real solidarity every substance has all the for it's not that something is liquid and something is water no no no that's not the meaning because that's what they common meaning associated with these forth and also we know they are very different yeah Akash is different gold itself Swarna gold has all these four unloosen it because you take gold it's all solid you heat it it becomes liquid so it has that upper and also in it then you heat it further it evaporates it becomes fire so it has the pages on also on it and then if you leave it for a long time it loses mass so that is value so it goes away and this it's astonishing corresponds to what modern physics has discovered there are four stable atoms the first is proton the second is electron proton gave most of the mass to matter the second is electron which is a mass which is 117 hundreds of the mass of the proton the third is stages of photon which has no mass and the fourth is neutrino neutrino is associated with the loss you know in the weak force it needs to decay through intuition through his mono Shakti through his frog Nia Kannada discovered that there are four stable atoms and these are the four and then it's the combination of these you have diodes you have these Unruh in combinations which lead to molecules and so on this is an amazing amazing thing I the first translation of Canada's Rishikesh sutras from a scientific angle they were finished there their philosophers who have done it but they were talking about philosophy they are not talking of physics the first one was done was by me four years ago and I'm hoping that physicists and other scientists would examine this amazing classic that India should be proud of it's one of the greatest books ever written greatest Shastras or scientific texts ever taken and some of you may know that it was well known to people like Vivekananda and it even had an influence on modern science I'd be happy to tell you if you send a G if you want me to yes okay so what happened was we awaken and there was in it was in the US was in New York in 1898 on his third or fourth tour of America he first came to America in 1893 the famous speech he gave at the Parliament of Religions which electrified the world he was again in 1898 and there was the world's most famous actress of her times a French woman named Sarah but and is with her group or troupe she was visiting us and she was in New York and she knew about with a Canada so she threw a party New York and she also invited the most famous engineer and scientists of the late 19th century named Nikola Tesla Nikola Tesla was the inventor of the alternating current protocol and the alternating motor AC motor he was the inventor so the two of them met and she wanted Vivekananda and test her to me so they told the men how do we know because we bacon under wrote about it in a letter to one of his disciples and Tesla wrote about it in his diary and in that where he can under told Tesla that look you are interested in transmitting energy wirelessly according to Vedic physics and by Vedic physics he meant by shaker he says it is possible to convert matter into energy so Nicola why don't you try to show using your science that matter and energy can be converted to each other because that's what the sheikah says and Tesla said ok I will do it and we bacon on that told him that if you do it not only would it be good for your science but it also established Vedic science as the foremost physical science now we know that although Tesla promised to do it he was unable to do it and the story that Tesla was a Serbian he one of his correspondent was the first wife of Einstein was a Serbian also and that's where Tesla told that lady I forget a name that look this is what you should be working on and there's also in history of science it's known that Einstein's most important paper and theory of relativity was initially co-authored with his wife and he took his wife's name out only when the proofs came in so who knows Rebecca numbers [Music] exhortation to Tesla based on his knowledge of Vedic physics which is where she she can play a role in the very development of modern business and certainly it did play a role in quantum mechanics quantum mechanics is the deepest science foundation of all of science and one of the two creators of quantum mechanics was this Austrian urban Schroedinger who was a big ant then he would always go wherever late Upanishads and the banker theater with him and Schrodinger mentions in his own autobiography that look the central idea of quantum mechanics that there should be a superposition of all possibilities in a state came to him from the upanishadic maha vaakya I am Atmaram that this Atman so Indian science Indian physics has already transformed the world we should not forget it in particular innovation you mentioned in your article also the idea of observer for the first time is mentioned in racial sutras of Quran not only the observer I forgot to mention that the Abhishek sutras of canal also has laws of motion almost exactly the same as Newton's laws of motion that are that are so famous for example one of these laws emotions if motion is carrier V Rho D karma ha that notion is carry on carry good karma that action is opposed by reaction karma is action is reaction you know in front of me if you want I can read it out yeah yeah please do that because I forget the exact word the first one is say you have a guru taught putana that is in the absence of conjunction gravity causes objects to fall which means that's the only yeah you drive it so that's how things form otherwise they'll keep on moving without stopping which is Newton's first law of motion and law to you divided into two not to a is no than a wish HR how I would know them not theory of Manama in the absence of a force there is no upward motion side word motion or motion in general that is the second and law to be northern Adagio karma karma karma Tata Sons Karim Karim motor Ancha the initial pressure on the bow leads to the arrows motion from that motion is momentum from which is the motion that follows and the next and so on similarly and Laurie of course is carry with all the Karma which is action if suppose the reaction amazing we should if for nothing else we are not saying that we need to reject the West know we love the West we law with all science we love Western science it's all universal science but let's not shortchange our youth by not telling them of this amazing tradition of science that is a part of our history and of the amazing geniuses rishis easily she's who saw all this knowledge which which people marvel about that this is something that should inspire us to take leadership in science and not just to you know second tier third tier word or just do this common Ettore you have this formula you change this parameter change that parameter because that's what most of the research is about that's not really revolutionary world and the world does need revolutionary physics right now and sanjouji the reason for that is that physics is in a state of great crisis all of physical laws cannot explain cosmology because the speeds with which galaxies are moving and all of that they're totally counter to either newton's laws of gravitation or einstein's so that's why physics is being forced to postulate 95% of dark matter and dark energy now it's quite possible that the solution to that might be in the sutras that kannada kale maybe it might be something to do with the way we are observing the universe and it's not that we really need dark matter and dark energy but we are the our definitions our starting point is and that's where the solution might be in a better understanding of that idea of syllabi which is where the subject then we ask the observers interact with outer reality so I think this is something that Indian professors and philosophers and other scholars should get on to reading and studying not only to inspire young people and students but also to get inspired to look at the big challenges that modern science is facing also the idea of consciousness oh absolutely fact the ultimate frontier of all of science not only from the perspective of physics but also from computer science from neuroscience is and psychology is that of consciousness who is the subject now they the humdrum answer that is provided in in you know everyday stories that we read in scientific journals is that you have physics leading to chemistry chemistry leads to biology biology leads to brain structure and it's the complexity the brain structure that consciousness arises but there's really no reason why it should suddenly arise and besides if you had consciousness as separate for each sentient being then you would not be able to explain phenomena such as cinemas Ramanujan coming up with all these formulas or all this mathematics he would wake up and you would say that goddess namagiri has she dictated this formula to me which is his way of saying that he got it in his in his mind's eye and it's correct he can't explain where it came from so consciousness has got to be something larger than just random activity inside our brain and that's what pedant aJE's that's the very heart of the Vedas that all of this reality is within consciousness it's not that consciousness is something a phenomenon that emerges out of physical reality and this is the most subtle thing it is something that science our scientists in all these areas are struggling to express in a fashion so that it will then complete the outer sciences as we know it but as the Mundaka Upanishad tells us that look you have the Opera bithia and Terabithia opera with BR the outer sciences which can be described by language and para Vidya is the science of consciousness is it's the science of the Atman and so what has really happened is that the entire world is now ready because of the expansion and growth of the outer sciences of the Opera Bhatia is ready to receive power with you and pura vida is what Vedas are all about is what the heart of yoga is what the heart of Sankhya is as Krishna explains in the Bhagavad Gita you know you are you have some hero and you have karma you you have various yoga's which take you to that point of that samurai of that interaction between our mind which is also an instrument antonkarin it's not the real self and the self which is the same for all of us so we are almost there and I think that will be the fulfillment of the Vedas that will be where the whole world will change I think India and Indian wisdom and Indian Sciences are going to play a central role in the evolution of Sciences all over the world and this will bring Universal knowledge to everybody it's not something that's got to be you know just get two people out here know this belongs to everybody we should be the ambassadors to take it to all corners of the world as a needing to talk to you as always professor talk it was a wonderful exposition of a very difficult subject I must say it I have interacted with a lot of people but most of them have very foggy idea about my shake smoothness and of course you also written on Patanjali sutras I also think that brush a candle is with us they do work together and we will be picking your brain sometime on Delhi suits also thank you very much it was wonderful to have you here once again thank you thank you the lighting on YouTube and don't miss another update [Music]