[Music] hey welcome to this episode of the Overcomers podcast um the the process of these uh podcasts especially around kind of conception like what do I want to do who do I want to talk to what testimonies do we want to share uh I am always running almost everything uh by Lauren um I just think she's got such a gift of discernment and um yeah just Super Wise and uh and so we were talking about this season and I was talking about doing a couple of different things and Lauren was like why don't I interview you you've never actually been on the Overcomers we have but you haven't and I was like man that's that's actually a great idea so in this episode I'm actually in the hot seat uh and the Beautiful Lauren Chandler uh is going to interview me and so you ready for that I think so I feel a bit vulnerable here I mean I feel like you you can ask things that nobody else would even think to ask true and um and here's the thing I'm I'm here for it whatever you whatever you think will be helpful for people let's talk about it well and I think the flip side of that is there's so much I do know about you and could ask you that it's almost more than my brain can handle so you know you'll be sa find that I find that hard I find that hard to breath you got a big brain you should believe it okay well I think when I was thinking about what do I want to ask you about I think you've talked a lot about in the podcast we did together the episode we did together we talked about cancer we talked about our marriage um and I think a personal turning point for you was in 2015 when you saw um The Counselor Jack we call him jack well that's his name I mean we just call him Jack and everybody knows who we're talking about cuz Jack's jacked everybody up in the best way um and so I wanted to hear more about that um because I think you know we at that point we'd been married six years yeah wait no no much longer 16 years that's not right 16 years um probably we were in almost 10 years into like it being a really sweet Seas season in our marriage and I feel like that you seeing Jack was a turning point no question for our for you personally for our marriage for our family I would say for your ministry at TVC for our church for your friendships and so I would love for you to share about that what led you to see Jack and then how what that looked like as much as you want to share or don't want to share yeah inv it's fine we we'll see if we get to that level of sharing and then and then the effects that you've experienced in the last yeah that's that's a lot so um yeah I was uh I was blowing and going grinding the church had grown by a thousand a year for over a decade it was we were a multi-site campus and uh like externally speaking um I I had every I had more than I ever fathomed you know when I switched my major in college I thought I was like making a vow of poverty I came to this little Church of 168 people thinking deep life with these people for 40 years and uh that that was not what the Lord had for me and um I I think I started to feel really thin um and I and I couldn't figure out another way I've said it to guys in smaller rooms was everything just stopped working MH um I had a lowgrade agitation that was just always there like if nine is snapping at somebody I just hovered at a six yeah and I began to feel um emotionally stunted in both ways and there was this moment where this guy was in my office just one of the more heartbreaking scenarios uh I think I'd heard in Ministry to that point I mean just heartbreaking and he is weeping and I mean snot and tears hard to get words out and I just remember being in the room with him and not feeling anything and in my mind going I need to connect him to Jason Hollman we need to get him in recovery maybe we can get him to see a counselor we need to and that scared me um yeah I just became aware oh man something's not right something's not right with me um and then while that was happening so many of my good friends were disqualifying themselves were blowing up their lives were losing their Ministries were and I started to think man does anyone make it like does anybody make it and so those two things that moment in my office with that man who's still at the church by the way I see him out there so much better Lord's redeemed so much um and then my friends disqualifying and blowing up their lives um made me want to get help yeah but I had no idea like what what do I need I mean I knew my Bible I um I mean I've been memorizing scripture and studying the Bible at that point for decades and I I couldn't figure out what was going on in me just nothing worked uh it wasn't tied to numbers it wasn't tied to money it wasn't tied to sex it wasn't tied to play it wasn't I I just was afraid for myself and I had a friend in Memphis at the time and he was telling me about this guy um this counselor that worked with high-capacity leaders and he wanted to work with them before things blew up and he he used words like Jedi and and Yoda and I guess that that would be you know the same thing yeah oh I'm proud of you babe look at you I actually know you've taught me well here's something I want to ask before you keep going how would you have reacted to that man before that point where because when you said that you you're like I'm not okay because I could not you know connect with him how would you have responded to him before that does that makes sense yeah I think the the version of that question I get that I think is what you're asking is now that I'm you know I've been in Ministry for close to 30 years I've been at the village for 22 um people will often ask me what would you go back and tell 28-year-old Matt if you could and the truth is 28-year old Matt couldn't hear me yeah he couldn't hear me yeah um no matter what wisdom I tried to give him he he couldn't hear me um and so but I was I was open because I knew something something was wrong and that was God's grace God's grace was that I in that moment felt this is this is not the life I want to lead yeah I I don't want to be in a room with a man who is devastated and not mourn with those who mourn or Rejoice with those who rejoice and I couldn't do either in that season and you know me I am emotive yeah I am an emotional man and to have that gone that disconnect absolutely Terri terrifying to me um and so I reached out to this guy and just said hey will you give me the number of your Jedi friend um and and I called Jack and he you know he was like well there's a couple of ways we can do this we can just start hopping on phone calls or you can come do an intensive like a three-day intensive and so I uh man I mean my personality is not let's hop on the phone my my personality is let's do the Intensive I've often said that Matt is like if you've got the knob you know to your the volume it's either like at a zero or 100 there's no in between you it's true so yeah so I did what I do I was already set up for a sabatical that summer uh and so I started doing prep work for Jack in May what did you think of the prep work oh I hated it I mean I hated the books he had read what did you hate about it well I think I had theological issues with it and I I didn't have I didn't have the grids for it um and so I I was super skeptical um and and and maybe even rightly skeptical about some of it at the time and um I I still don't know that I've drank all the Kool-Aid yeah um but I I didn't have a framework for what he was trying to show me and so what's funny is after uh I could read and understand a bit more but before it it just sounded honestly like hogwash yeah like like because I needed um a stronger theological grid um because I didn't not didn't know this time that's how I'd protected myself that's how I'd armored up I didn't know that it was armor yeah and um so I was doing what I tended to do uh which just spot what I thought was false and figure out why it was false and uh and so I went in you know kind of that way yeah but there were some other exercises they weren't reading they were um ask my friends my closest friends what's unique about me like what does Matt do like if you dropped Matt anywhere what would he do and then I had to take all of those kind of couple of sentences and form like a statement and really that statement ended up being really significant in the first intensive I began to realize oh my gosh yeah that that this is exactly what I do but not in a way that was like yeah this is exactly what I do but like oh no that's that's what I do I'm doing this out of a sense of Brokenness or validation and not really why I thought I was doing this which was to serve and please the Lord yeah and so are you willing to share what that was uh it was something like uh I mean I I probably could have looked it up um it was something like um I I take broken things and fix them yeah I and and what became clear about my history even in that process is I have never taken a job in Ministry where it wasn't something in Decline something dying something like needed some kind of shot of adrenaline they needed a hero and I needed to be the hero and so so that's uh I had never seen it on paper like that where I'm like oh man but when I first saw it I was like yeah that's what I do yeah I I go into broken things and I fix them and I didn't realize how tied that was to to Really family of origin stuff and my own story and my own need for validation yeah I can fix this I can make this work and I was seeing it as a positive like yes you put that on my Tombstone fixes broken he fixes stuff and so that that was all the pre-work and um and then I hopped on a plane to Nashville and three days just him and me in the office and he had a dog named Caleb uh but uh it was just him and me in the office I don't know that I'd ever in my life been in a room with someone who was in there for me um I'd never even experienced that that was discombobulate that usually if I'm meeting with I'm theing I'm the counsel now I've got Pastor friends and um people that I'm trying to learn from and you saw someone in abene for a bit Bob yeah I think that was a little bit different very different than what this was okay and not not like that not like I don't know like to be in a room where a guy's just locking eyes with you and there's nowhere to go and the subject is you yeah and he none of your defense mechanisms are going to work yeah like I found out real quick there are these stories I've been telling my whole life as a joke at dinner parties that everybody laughs at but Jack didn't laugh he said ho ho that's a terrible story like do you hear Do you hear yourself tell that story again but I I want you to and and I was not I had never I had no no idea what I was getting into when I walked in there and then I never had anybody read my mail like that um where you know that there's a a scripture where Jesus is Calling his disciples and one of them says come meet the man that told me everything about myself and I was like holy cow this man knows more about me than I know about me and he just read some stuff yeah and has asked me three or four questions and so you know I would drive there and talk to you on the phone and then we would meet in the morning we'd break for lunch and I would you know try to work through it with you on the way to lunch and then um would eat lunch in my hotel room and then get back in and I would go pick up some coffee he he drank hot chocolate but I mean that's his whatever I'd get him a hot chocolate and me a coffee and I'd go and we'd work in the afternoon he'd give me some homework at night uh one of those things was like go watch the movie The Kid yeah and or go read this passage and meditate on it or do this for me Journal about this for me tonight and I would do those things at night and i' fought the urge to like call Nashville friends and hang out in the evenings which was my impulse like to give me a break yeah from the intensity of this and um man afternoon day one he said okay I'm not going to mention the Bible to you anymore cuz every time I quote a scripture to you you glaze over like you know what I'm talking about but I just don't think you know what I'm talking about so we're going to go out this a different way and then at the end of the week I'll tie it all together with scripture for you because I know you're going to need that and um and and man that it was I I think the most disorienting 3 days of my entire life yeah um where I I began to see with his help oh man I am operating out of deep hurt yeah um that I have buried and then I have theologized and I um and that's what's breaking like that let's call him little Matt little Matt's he hero Matt he's he's done yeah he he just is not big enough anymore to hold on to this life that God had given me yeah um and so then great who who is then yeah who who had no sense of self once I could see that I mean I that process of going going back wasn't like let's beat up on your mom and dad it was all about me and how I interpreted the world and and how I figured out how to survive yeah and I learned you know I had this I had this recurring dream um about the time I was nine and it was it was such a silly dream but it would terrify me and um I didn't feel like I could wake up my parents and I didn't feel so I'd wake up in the middle of night and just be absolutely terrified and I would just go sit in this bathroom with the light on and until it would leave me and it was this Daisy it was just Daisy it was in black and white it was Daisy that was like it was like being filmed with one of those cameras like so it moved like a movie from the 20s and then all of a sudden this huge Rock would just crush the Daisy and um and it was in That season that I figured out I could control my environment with my sense of humor I could control my environment by being um by galvanizing by gathering by having a plan by being the one with the answers by um and and so that that's what I was doing even before I became a Christian yeah uh I mean I was the guy that was planning the you know we're going to go to this party we're going to do this thing tonight we're going to you know Ray get your you know be VHS recorder we're going to go uh to um Houston Hobby and we're just going to screw around in the airport and make stupid movies and um I didn't know you did that yeah it was yeah it was wild we even we actually got there was a Southwest Airlines plane that was painted like Shamu yeah and they they let us film that and even let us get on the plan I mean it was just this is way pre pre 911 pre I mean think about like even most people watching this probably don't remember how easy it was get and Airport 91 meet your person at the gate at theate you could and we just walked in with a video recorder and just shot stupid videos in the airport down there and um and I just learned I know how to I can manage my whole world with my sense of humor and my personality um I can make people like me I can gather people to do things I could um I I just had natural gifts there and that's that's just how I controlled my world and then so so if you're thinking about um my like what to maybe call that I I was just comedian Matt yeah um and that worked it worked in my home that could be explosive at times if I could be funny at dinner or I could I could control my environment yeah and so that's what I did did and then I encountered Jesus yeah um and that that was I mean that changed everything MH but there was certainly some residue that remained and so I go from comedian Matt to um now like full bore hero Matt yeah comedian Matt now has the gospel he wants to see his friends come to know Jesus he wants to know the Bible he wants to and because of the way I became a Christian which Jeff was so great the guy that led me to the Lord was so great at asking me to read a book of the Bible let's talk about it read this book it answers some of the questions that you have that by the time I became a Christian I it was it was like I knew more than a lot of kids that had grown up in church yeah and so now I'm I'm this soldout iHeart Jesus t-shirt to high school caring my Bible reading my Bible before class carrying it in my hand so people could see that I had it um and Christians in Mass were coming to me yeah and going what do you think about this or hey we're thinking about starting this Bible study after school would you be willing to teach that and then the church I got saved at you know my personality they were like hey would you be willing to teach fourth grade boys Sunday school and I was like absolutely I would and it became clear oh I I've actually got a teaching gift and and so then I'm I'm just exercising that gift anytime and every time I can and that kind of culminates in you know First Baptist Texas City they had youth Sunday and that Sunday night you know a student got to preach yeah and other students got to lead worship which is not what people listening to this probably think it was just they picked the hymns and you know solo yeah did the special that night um and I I preached we have that audio of that sermon we will never release it it is awful and awesome I I will I don't remember I don't know if you haven't we need to listen to it but I don't think I could listen to it with you I would need to let you your accent would be thicker than mine was I don't know that I'd go that far but it was pretty bad it sounded like Matthew MCC and it was but like on a High um Pitch yeah it was a little bit higher for sure little mat little mat skinny oh I was come on sis you're a pubescent like you were through it but I thought you were saying pre was like what girl I was like like you're 18 years old right it hadn't been long it had not been long you are right and maybe I was a late bloomer it's fine it's fine and um man I preached that night and here's what's crazy terrible sermon uh decently you know a decent sermon if I'm thinking exegetically correct but lot of passion not a lot lot stories St probably maybe there wasn't let's listen to it and find out I'm I'm super curious now it's too painful for me to listen to even the sound of my voice I'm like I can't do it I can't listen to me but the Holy Spirit worked profoundly that night and in a First Baptist Church of tchas City Texas the altars were filled people came down for prayer and even the chairman of the deacons got up because the student Ministry had experienced this little Revival man I don't know how else to explain it I mean there was in my high school and at the church I was attending there was an outpouring of the spirit and we would not have used that language to describe what was happening but that's what was happening and I mean Jimmy Herford Brent bear Gan I'm G just go through this long list of kids who came to know Christ and then began to boldly live out that Faith because I was boldly living out that faith and so that that kind of became my path after that and um yeah I not long after I graduated I didn't go off to school like I was planning on going I didn't trust me just yet uh I I thought had I gone off to school I might fall back into okay um some things that God had pulled me out of um and so I stayed and then I ended up getting a job at this I was a janitor at a Christian school and then that led to to my first job in Ministry at Highland Baptist Church in Lamar Texas I was the student pastor of what was five kids initially but then God did what he has tended to do with me which is gather um and then man before you know it there were 50 kids and then 80 kids and it it was it was not a great experience for me and that I was in a church with a lot of older Saints I I had not been in and around the church enough to know the politics like I didn't understand why we couldn't use the Parlor and until I used the Parlor right and then you know you're giggling because you grew up at a First Baptist real special yeah and then there were there were things for me what I wanted was to see kids become Christians yeah and everywhere I was trying to do that I I was running against these we that they did things and that they wanted things done that I thought fought against or made it very difficult to do those things and uh I was not overly Sanctified at the time so I can only imagine how much of a nightmare I was to them and so if I'm thinking about they're seeing all these kids coming to their tiny Church they're seeing their baptisms go up they're seen But then here's this kid who is constantly changing everything it has no respect for our tradition or the way we do things it's constantly wanting more money is constantly you know dreaming in ways that they just completely did not understand and so there was a lot of conflict between there there here's if I'm honest there wasn't a lot of conflict because like most small churches maybe that's not fair they were not good at conflict I was not good at conflict and so they avoided and I just kept pressing yeah and so what I took away from that season was I was obviously not called to vocational ministry that's what I took from it that's interesting I was like I don't want to be in a system that keeps me from doing the thing that burns in my heart to do um and so that that was kind of the progression of like here I am what am I doing I'm being the hero yeah that let me step in oh this dying elderly Church in a tiny little town with no with five kids that pretty much live with their grandparents from broken homes and then let me come in and fix that let me come and then I don't ever take on a Ministry ever in my entire Christian Life that wasn't something like that it was in Decline it was on life support but I'll fix it I'll come in and fix it and that was so satisfying to me to to do that um and continue to be satisfying right up until it stopped working yeah I've heard I don't know who it was talk about someone talk about the the strategies we have as kids to endure really that that the Lord gives us like that makes available so praise God that you're able to be a ComEd so much gold in it um and you see where the the gold there's more gold in it now than shadow because of the stuff you've walked through but um so it wasn't necessarily bad oh gosh no none of that was bad but they whoever it was compared it to like like your jeans when you were 10 years old at some point you're going to outgrow the strategy and it's going to end up being a hindrance to you and you can't grow anymore because it's it's keeping or you're busting through it and it's not covering anything anymore and so I think probably that moment with that guy yeah was one of those points we like okay this strategy is no longer working um but it doesn't mean that you get rid of it all together oh not at all um yeah I yeah no I I think I still have a lot of that in me um I just think I've healed yeah um from the hurt or healing from the hurt I um yeah because it was easy for me to use humor and and use fixing things um to to kind of quiet those Restless or maybe I could use those really angry parts of me yeah um and I I didn't know that really what I was was sad yeah um and you know what's funny I won't be able to talk about this but it was actually Reed yeah um that was a key Catalyst for me uh um because I mean from the second I held that boy I mean that that day November 4th I I just remember this just overwhelming sense of love for that boy um I I mean My Guy and um still I mean he's 19 and um I mean we're going to see the a Creed concert tonight you love your kids I'd love my kids and so I'm going to drive to Fort Worth I man have just got off a plane from Phoenix then I'm GNA get in the truck with Reed and Audrey and I'm going to go see Creed at Dickie Arena I think I know four songs so it'll be a long night and um it struck me in the second intensive I did with Jack um that when I was that age my dad could not because of his own Journey Love Me The Way I Loved Reed and um and there was something about that there was something about my own love for Reed and the realization through these stories that I would tell at dinners that were funny you know everybody would laugh at that in that season when I was a little boy like that when I was 5 6 8 9 12 my dad was just not in a place where he could love me like that and maybe he did in in the best way he could I believe that but but I do too but he was just not in a place to to love me like that and it was I think when that clicked I I don't think I've ever cried like that in my life I mean I was on the floor yeah like I slid out of the chair I was in and just sobbed uncontrollably uncontrollably it it felt like forever I'm sure it was just 10 minutes or 5 minutes or I don't know how long it was but I was it was like in that moment I didn't know it what what comes after this like who am I after this yeah and again it wasn't I didn't have any anger towards my dad I didn't have any blame for my dad if anything I had such compassion and empathy for him but I had never mourned yeah I had never mourned the those years of my life and it was like that to me was such a turning point because it was like all that deep stuff left me um and and now I had language to understand kind of the deeper motives of my heart and I was able to repent of those give those to Jesus invite Jesus into those yeah and that to me was the beginning of uh I think what's most often called integration where um those little broken bits of hero matad or L mad whatever um caught up yeah to at the time 40something year old Matt yeah and that that became oh no I do know who I am I do know what what my motive is here I can see that a lot more clearly maybe I ever I could and then what I noticed is um I stopped resenting people because what would happen in my hero mat would I would step in to fix things but then I would be resentful at people for having to fix them or nobody would ask me to fix them and I would feel the weight of having to fix them and so that was gosh that was my whole life was that let me fix that let me get involved in that let me make that right let me even if people weren't asking for it I was doing it and that was kind of my dance that was my part of the dance with my family with you with the kids with the but you know husband and father th those aren't let me fix this they're a relationship it's not a list of things that this is what I'm supposed to do it's no these are relationships that God's given me and so I'm not trying to fix Lauren I'm not trying to fix Audrey Reed Nora and and my bent is if I'm not walking deeply with the Lord or intimately with the Lord my default is still let let me fix this rather than let me go after the heart here let me check on the person here let me walk deeply with the man or the woman let me fix this problem that's presenting and that there's a level of Freedom that that's brought that's hard to I I don't think I've got the words yet to explain what it's like to see a person instead of trying to fix someone's problem yeah um I I think that's been the change in Ministry and preaching um that's most significant what's so interesting was the meeting that was the impetus for all this was yeah you were just going to fix things for them mhm and you knew something wasn't right that you could not be like connect to him personally it wasn't even like a person in the room problem yeah so how gracious of the Lord to so gracious draw your attention to that yeah um one of the things I I think it's interesting when you talk about this is who I was you know I was galvanizing I was which galvanizing means to take a lot of people and like hey let's go do canate them Beed do and accomplishing a task or being united in some way um and what I think is interesting is something that Jack said to you kind of at the end of your first intensive is hey just so you know you'll go back to your church and they might not like this new mat yeah um because you're not going to be hero mat fixing all the problems and you said that I don't know if that's going to be for me and you were right and I think I think the episode with Trevor and have already played before this one airs and so you'll get a little bit of background there but um I think too you did exactly what you did before you had worked through your the golden shadow um or the hero mat You by experiencing what you did with Jack it you galvanized others to be like I want to do that too I want to I I want to look at the places in my life where I I've I've almost like these closets in my life that I've not opened up the door to to let Jesus actually into that I've just operated in a way that I'm like Hey we're good here go Jesus you don't you know you you saved me um you're sanctifying me that let's not worry about that yeah um and instead you're like no let's open up all the doors that that the Lord believes I'm ready for um because I think there's that too where you had all those years leading up to that and maybe 10 years before you weren't ready for that and so yeah anyway it reminds me of the um when God's leading the people of Israel out of Egypt it says he took them the long way around yeah so they wouldn't see the Philistines and lose heart and I've always just thought yeah think that the Lord took me the long way around because I could I was not ready I could not hear I wouldn't have I would have fought it and I would have I needed to get to that place in his Mercy that I was like oh no I'm everybody thinks I'm awesome and I'm not okay yeah and with my friends the first intensive I I felt so naked so disoriented so that it was desperation that L me to them go I need to tell you what just happened to me and I want you to come with me because I don't I'm nervous about where I'm headed I don't know where I'm headed but I don't want I didn't want those guys who were not at the level of friendship that we are now at all right um this was one of those we talked about a couple of turning points on that episode one was with Josh uh and and mine was going will these guys come with me on this journey and and um by the grace of God they were eager to and and then you know we say in that podcast you know that episode a bunch this is the good life yeah and the good life was wrought by their courage to go okay we'll come with you um which speaks again to my galvanizing gift right which is gold which is gold yes um so yeah you're right yeah I think do you use the example of the Lord Leading the People uh through the Wilderness a long way around even Jesus you know he knew what he was going to do and where it was all headed and he just only dropped H it went until the very end and even then the disciples did not get what was about to happen so I think he knows what we need and when we need it and he's so uh gracious and merciful and compassionate um but you know just like the woman at the well still willing to press those places when it's time um so how do you feel like it affected you what changed I would say uh in the home like with me and the kids would you say yeah I I think I alluded to it um where so much of how I saw you guys was how do I fix their problems um and we had problems yeah and you and I had problems we had problems with the kids because of me of course because of me of course um that I think the freedom I had was no I'm not going to fix I'm going to let the Lord fix those I'm going to be the man God's asked me to be and uh I'm going to lead well um serve well love well and I'm going to just draw near to these people yeah I'm going to draw near to my wife and her heart I'm going to build deep relationships with my kids and I'm I'm not going to be the guy that's seen through the L of what problems can I fix so that I matter and that's where I get that idea of like being a father being a husband you you're talking about a relationship you can't codify it in like this is what I'm supposed to do as the husband or the father it's I mean certainly there are principles and commands that from the scriptures that we need to walk in but I I say this all the time pastors will other pastors will ask me um How do I um stay in love with Lauren how do you well they won't say you they'll say your wife your wife yeah and I've always said well since these you know since some of this happened I'll always go I have no idea how you should do that with your wife yeah I know how to do that with Lauren um Lauren has certain Desir she's wired a specific way and so I could tell you all the stuff that Lauren and I do and it can make your situation worse m so the best thing you can do is get to know the heart and mind of your bride yeah and I would probably frame it the same way with your kids there are principles that are good and right there are commands in the scripture that we have to obey but even that obedience is with a unique person made in the image of God never been one like them before will never be one like them again who's coming from their own background in story and so there are things that maybe I do with you that if a man tried to do with his wife it could make things really bad but with you because I know you I I know what you like I know what you want I know what makes you happy and what can frustrate you and what can um and so I can build our rhythms around my knowledge of you or interact with my children in ways that they've been wired by God to to kind of navigate the world so I've got two kids that love physical touch and love hugs and cuddles and I mean not so much anymore they're older and I've got one who is she is not physical touch is not on her list she takes after me that's right she's going to be more of a Quicks side hug and words of affirmation and you know conversation yeah and but that's knowing them as people not seeing them as oh they're struggling with this so let me fix that um and I just think that's that's really been the secret sauce of the last Almost decade now is I'm I'm not meant to be a problem solver always I'm I'm meant to know people and love them yeah and if if I've got some wisdom from the Lord if I've got some wisdom from the scripture get that but I'm not a problem solver first yeah that that's a secondary function it's like a secondary skill that I tend to wait for people ask for now yeah rather than just take it as I'm gonna I'm going to fix this for you yeah what would you say you said I'm not a problem solver first what are you first yeah man that's a great question Lauren um you know it I do um I I think I'm just a as a true extrovert I genuinely love people I love their stories I love learning about them fascinated um by how they got here and what the Lord's done and how and I've just learned that's the stuff I'm most curious about now so last night I preached in Phoenix last night and I went and hung out with a guy last night and I was just I I just found myself repeatedly asking those kinds of questions I knew him I've known him for a while I've known some really hard hard things he's been through and some spectacularly beautiful things he's been through and so the questions I was asking last night was more like how did you process that in that season or where did you go with that anger where did you go with that hurt or where and I was just genuinely curious and fascinated by how the Lord brought him through those things yeah how do you you know you talked about it being integration yeah how can you tell when you are starting to become disintegrated and what do you do to try to stay more integrated yeah for me that because I've done the work you know we're coming up on a decade of the work um for me I can only spot that if I'm not running a thousand miles an hour yeah Pace matters yeah the speed of Life matters um and so I've tried to wire these rhythms into my life to keep my internal World slower um part of that for me is I need to physically do things I need to go train Jiu-Jitsu I need to go to the gym I need to physically do something to slow down my [Music] internal voice and that frenetic hum that's in me that's such a gift such a gift of God's grace but I need to work out I need time alone I just do even as a true extrovert I need time alone um and and not once a quarter you know you know once a quarter I'll head out to the river cabin but one of the things I've asked Andrea to do is I need to not as best we can ever have cascading meetings where I'm leaving this meeting and going right into the next one I need space between those meetings to just be by myself to process with the Lord how I'm coming out of that meeting and how I'm going into the next yeah so for me I needed to wire Stillness Solitude into my life in a way that pre to all this I never did I hated being alone yeah and now I crave it I can feel when I'm in desperate need for it yeah um and so that that's how it works for me yeah is I need Pace um I think how I'm responding um to stimulus is another kind of check engine light um so we we talked about this in the podcast with Trevor en Joy but a code Josh Trevor and joy yeah Trevor and Josh is if I'm not okay um I'll power up and that's a phrase that they know to signal to me hey you're you're powering up and then I'll be like oh man I am and and so it's good to have friends that have been on this journey with me yeah because they they we've got these code words for hey you you powered up in that meaning you all right and then because I'll have that 15 minute break or so between meetings then I'm like oh man I did power up there I did hero did try to kind of step in and fix it and not see the person and um and and so th those are one I need Solitude yeah and and two uh I need everyday space so I'm not running a million miles an hour yeah and and there are days just because I know guys are going to want there are days that's not an option yeah um and so on days like that I'll try to wake up maybe a little earlier um or maybe try to go for a walk near the end of the day where I can just be alone with my thoughts and wrestle with the Lord uh but those are some of the ways I I know I've tried to manage yeah to stay integrated stay integrated um what would you say to someone who's a little bit skeptical about all this oh my gosh well yeah me too I was too um but I had I'm going to say this and um knowing it might get me in a little trouble and it's fine you never get in trouble for things you say I can't imagine my gosh only weekly only weekly um there wasn't a Bible verse that was going to fix what was broken in me I knew it I had it memorized I had done the thing you know there there used to be this um early in my walk with Christ but somebody had give me this little pamphlet or something that was just basically like you struggle with lust memorize these verses you struggle with anger memorize these verses you struggle with this memorize these verses I had memorized the verses I could not unlock what was broken in me and to make matters worse theology had really become my armor yeah if I could theologically explain it then I didn't have to feel it yeah and um maybe that's because I was weak in meditation on the text um but I don't know I I I get the skepticism um and I get that somebody's going to hear what I just said and your experience wasn't mine uh the spirit met you as you were meditating on a verse and it did do the things that I'm describing that I needed you know a guide for maybe you didn't need a guide I needed one I I I mean I studied the Bible all day multiple days a week I it was not unlocking what was locked up in me yeah and so if you find yourself stuck like that um I I would just say get get a guide get somebody who can help you a and I want to say this who deeply loves Jesus and deeply loves the word of God uh I'm I'm not advocating um finding a counselor who knows family systems family systems although I think family systems is super helpful I think it's a common Grace gift of God that he gave to psychologists and counselors absolutely I I I would not recommend entrusting these spaces to someone who doesn't love Jesus and love the word of God I just would not actually have seen it go bad for guys who get into this and then they're like this works in a way that Jesus didn't work and I'm going well I talk to me about that help me understand that to to me this is Jesus's this is the spirit's work and so you know I think of Romans where the Gentiles do the law without knowing the law I think that can lay over all sorts of things I think it Li it lays over psychology all the time where yeah they just stumbled on to things that are how God designed things to be and and so you want a guide who knows that you you don't want a guide who you know needs you to completely deconstruct your faith to heal I just think that's a it's a really dangerous space you're super vulnerable in this space and so you need to find someone who deeply loves Jesus and deeply loves the Bible yeah and and then there now you're in a much safer place to do this work um L some spiritual director just kind of convince you that you don't need Jesus and you certainly don't need the Jesus that um the Bible talks about historically I'm speaking of historic Orthodox Christian faith and their interpretation of Jesus and that's the thing even your view of Jesus didn't really change it became more real oh became more real you know it makes me think of the greatest commandment to love the Lord your God God with all your heart soul mind and strength and so those are like four he says it four parts of us and I think a lot of times we can um some of us tend more towards the mind or the strength to do something and maybe not the soul and the Heart well that's I am I am probably a heart soul guy yeah and my whole life was mind strength you were rewarded for it I was rewarded at every turn for being mind and strength I think most of us are yeah well we live in in our society right now our culture is mind strength even though I think you're seeing a lot of hunger for kind of Soul heart realities and that's why I think it's important to talk about these things because like you said it can get hijacked just like mind strength can get hijacked and be um unhealthy the heart soul too and so to have all of them and a great understanding of all of them um with the framework of um Orthodox belief and Doctrine and um rooted in the Bible and loving the Jesus of the Bible I think is so important um yeah so that's great come on well I I think when um I know this isn't my podcast it can be we can make it the Overcomers with the channers fine um but uh I the way I experienced you coming back from Jack was just um almost like a breathing out and I felt just a lot of tension leave our home yeah um and not that it was really bad it it wasn't really bad we were in a good spot but um I felt like uh there was something because I do believe as the man you are the head of the home there was a ripple effect on our whole family and I would say there was a yeah and so um things changed for all of us yeah when you came back from from seeing Jack that first time and it's it's probably one of the greatest turning points in our family's life I believe I think so I felt it I came home feeling internally slow yeah for maybe the first time in my life yeah where that kind of frenetic thing in me was gone that uh you know I said earlier it just felt like I was always you know if nine was snapping at somebody I was always you know already at a six I I came home like I felt like I was a one or two yeah like everything was moving slow was awesome yeah and I think it was the Lord's Grace because I think not long after that that lots of hard things started happening yeah in Ministry man the next five years were brutal rough they were really rough yeah and if it wasn't for that I'm curious that how it would have gone yeah me too okay well all right babe anything else you feel good I feel good I feel like this is going to be a really helpful I hope so uh episode for I I hope anyone that listens but I think especially people in Ministry men and women who maybe are finding themselves in the same spot where they can't put their finger on it but something's not exactly right um and and I think our encouragement would to them would be find maybe find a guide uh that loves Jesus that knows the word that might be able to help them unlock this um yeah what whatever's broken that they can't really put their finger on yeah it'd be awesome yeah yeah okay hey thank you for tuning in uh as always uh I don't know if you're on a treadmill right now or in your car or out for a walk or um but what the spirit and what Jesus has for you uh is to not live out of some compartment of your life uh but to kind of pull it and Lauren's done a beautiful job of just reminding us like heart mind soul strength when we're saying in a ation I I know there's probably a whole psychological system behind that we're talking about that text yeah where Jesus is healed and put together a love for him in you through sanctification and presence yeah where you're loving him first and foremost yeah out of your mind you are serious about the scriptures you're gladly submitting to his revelation of himself and and your living out of a heart that's been and is being healed and and bubbling up out of your soul I'm thinking of John 4 is this um kind of everlasting life bubbling out of your soul uh and then your strength I is not human strength but it's flowing out of those other three so that the work you are doing is Flowing out of your heart mind and soul and it's not just your mind telling you to be stronger work harder protect yourself never feel that again never right it's it that's what we're talking about when we're talking about integration I want it for you man I I just think life's so much better yeah um when that work's been done but the work's it's hard and it's painful and it takes longer than you want and you got to go to places you don't really want to go you spent most of your life avoiding uh and so if you're listening to this and you're Maybe where I was you're like something's not right with me uh I would just encourage you find find someone who can help um and and then yeah ask the holy spirit for healing Grace and I think he'll give it and so thanks for tuning in uh to this episode of the Overcomers um and we'll I guess see you on the next episode not Lauren unless we decide to make this the Overcomers with the Chandlers but I don't know that she's see you the next time I'm here whenever that might we'll do that we'll do that oh wait I think I'm interviewing you this season you are that's going to be fun so you'll be in the hot seat all right thanks for tuning in to this episode [Music]