Did you ever foresee your life playing out like this? Oh, absolutely not. Never expected myself to be like selling data to every major hyperscaler, AI lab, private equity firm, semiconductor company, right?
Like everyone buys the data. How do you actually figure out what you enjoy? People want to do the same things other people have already done.
Life is about making your own path. There is generally high capacity to do almost anything, but it's also easy to fall into like monoculture, doing the same thing as everyone else. Does it share any wisdom with you? If you really enjoy something, try to become one of the foremost experts on it.
You mentioned you did quite well. $50, $100 million, something insane. You sat down with Jensen, right, for a bit?
It's surreal to see billionaires like actually care what you have to say. How'd you reach out? Was it cold emails? Were you DMing them on something?
One of the things I learned early on is you can talk to anyone on the internet. You can just reach out to anyone and most people just say yes, but no one does it. If you could give one or two sentences of wisdom of maybe your past decade learning and going through the ups and downs, what would you tell the world?
I would say this episode is brought to you by SemiAnalysis, the leading research and consulting firm for AI infrastructure and build-outs. They work closely with many hyperscalers, AI labs, hedge funds, and semiconductor companies that you know and respect. From tracking the inference economics of model deployments to every data center and the supply chains for fabs, servers, electrical equipment, and more, SemiAnalysis is an expert on the topic.
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To learn more, get in touch, or explore roles across a curated list of breakout startups, visit thecanonproject.com. Start with a couple intros of yourself, one of you out of college in Georgia, and then introduce yourself in the present moment as well, just for a bit of contrast. Yeah, I went to school, didn't want to graduate early, so I got a few degrees and like random stuff because I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. and then I sort of got a job that I wanted and then I just kept interviewing and, and sort of saying like ridiculous salary demands.
Right. And someone actually bit. Yeah. Um, so then I had to move to Minnesota. Yeah.
And I was like, Oh gosh. So once I moved to Minnesota, it was, it was quite interesting. Cause it's like, what am I doing here? I've never even lived in the snow.
Right. Where the town where I grew up, it's never snowed ever. And now I'm in Minnesota where it snows like 16 inches in one day. Yeah.
Uh, sometimes. And so, you know, being a rural Southern Georgia boy, uh moving up to cold Minnesota not knowing anyone um I generally led with like where I'm from right um and the things I like to do and I tried to relate to some of the similar like things that were done in Minnesota uh and some of them were like the country pumpkin things I recall like one of the things that I did was um I went ice fishing with these like random people a couple times because it was like you know this is close enough to like some of the stuff that I've done as a child. Uh, but also coming out of college, it's like, oh yeah, let's just go party.
Let's go drink. Right. Like, you know, this is sort of a, you know, the other thing that you would just go do.
So I think that's, that's sort of a, the vibe I was in then. Cool. And what's the vibe of you now? What do you do now? Um, let's go party.
Let's go. Um, I think that, um, you know, now, now there's a lot more hobbies that I've had time to, you know, dive into, uh, you know, a little, little three month obsessions where you get really deep into something and you can always revisit. Is there an example?
um like glass blowing it's very cool um like all sorts of like random like crafts like stuff like like i've done some carpentry did beekeeping kept ants for a little bit too um all sorts of random things the beekeeping was not three months it was like a little bit longer it's like two years but minnesota right what is there to do um so there's all sorts of various um you know topics to the of a drawer right that you can discuss travel right um just culturally have a lot more experience right whereas like back then I think I was like quite isolated right in terms of like not that I didn't have a vibrant you know sort of culture culture bring up an upbringing but it was like very unidimensional um or or rather it was like the Indian in me and then it was the like it was the like rural Georgia and it's like there's not much else yeah how was that as like a high school student how would you have described yourself back in high school um and really my my whole like sort of elementary through high school. There were no other people, right? My town was like 55%. white, 45% black. And then there's us, right?
So I think it was quite interesting in high school where there were, there were quite a few folks who would like, like the white kids and the black kids would like, they would integrate, right? We're in this one school, right? The only one school in town, but there was also quite a bit of like separation, at least like in terms of clicks, right?
And so somehow I was able to straddle the line and like, The white kids would, would, it would like, like me, but then the black kids would also like me and like could hang out with either of them. Not, not that I was like popular or anything, but it was like, just like, you know, it was like a very different vibe. I don't think many people were able to straddle both.
And so I think in high school that was also like quite defining, but also, you know, not, maybe not fully belonging in either group also felt that way. Besides, you know, the few best friends that I had, right? Do you think you were a good kid?
No. In the sixth grade, I got suspended three times. What happened?
I grew up in Cairo, Georgia, right, which is this town, really small. School's really bad. So there's another town 20 miles away.
We would, once my brother got to sixth grade, he started going to that school. And then once I got to the sixth grade, I started going to that school. I switched schools, made different friend groups, right?
So, like, I initially was, like, hanging out with, like, the cool black kids, right? And then I was hanging out with the cool white kids. And then I was hanging out with, like, the nerdy kids.
And I got into a fight with each of these groups, right? uh so the first one like we were making yo mama joes and i got offended and i pushed the kid and then he pushed me then we started fighting um and then the second one i uh i i don't recall exactly what the fight was for but got into a fight um and then the third one uh we were uh the nerdy kids you know runescape i don't know if you're about runescape but we were playing a lot of runescape back then we're sharing accounts and stuff and they uh one of the kids accused me of stealing his stuff and I didn't steal his stuff and so like He pushed me. I took his glasses, broke them. And then we fought, right? But the nice thing is, like, because I have an older brother, I won all three of these fights, you know?
So it was like, everyone was like, okay, okay. Interesting. And I never got into a fight again in any school sort of situation, but it was quite a fun thing. You have immigrant parents.
Like, what the fuck were they saying? You come home, you got suspended. They're like, don't do this, and a second time or a third time.
And then three times in one grade, they're like, what the fuck are you doing, Dylan? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, immigrant parents, right? So, like, the belt definitely came out, you know. At some point, the belt wasn't good enough.
So, my dad got the Swiffer, right? You know, there's, like, a Swiffer stick and hit me with that shit. It was like, okay, okay.
But, I mean, like, they're very disappointed, you know. But what are you going to do, right? You know.
I think, I think. Like they would come to school and they'd be like, what is wrong? On the third time, the school was like, your son has to go to anger management, like therapy or whatever. And it's like, it was the most like stupid thing I've ever been to this therapy thing. They like put these things in your head on your head and then you just like watch the screen.
And it was like, it would move around and you would just watch it and try and like chill. But like, what is there to be excited about? You're just staring at this thing. So I did that like four or five times. My dad also thought it was nonsense.
Yeah. And he's paying a load of money for it, right? So you can imagine what immigrant parents were like. But, like, I think generally they were not happy about it.
You know, I didn't fit in, right? I sort of had to stake my claim. But then after that, I was good. Yeah. That was it?
No more suspensions? No more suspensions. No more fights.
I wasn't necessarily a good kid, right? Yeah. You know, but generally it wasn't like...
disciplinary action there's a couple other moments where i had you know definitely like uh for example like helped kids cheat right in class right it was something with the answers or whatever or um would just talk in class all the time right these sorts of things happen regardless but like uh um definitely like actions that happen there but not anything necessarily on the uh on the disciplinary like suspension side tell us a bit more about your parents where did they immigrate from when Why did you end up in Georgia? Maybe touch a bit more on that. And then what are your earliest memories you can build up from there?
My dad and mom immigrated separately with their families. My mom into Oregon, her family bought like a, you know, my grandfather bought a motel that's like 24 rooms in rural Oregon, Grants Pass. My father and his family sort of moved to LA and they worked at someone else's motel. And then my dad also worked at a subway for a number of years.
And he went from like cleaning the bathroom to like became manager. And then they were introduced sort of through the like, you know caste ecosystem whatever And got you know had it sort of is effectively arranged marriage, right? They met and they talked for like two hours and they're like, yeah, we're getting married Okay, cool But like they'd both my dad had met I think two women before my dad had met my mom had met one man And they both had said no to these people Um, and, and this meeting I think is like quite extreme because my mom and dad, my dad tells me like, he brags about, he's like, I'm so smart. He like, he like laid down like, Hey, here's three things I'm never going to do.
Yeah. And my mom was like, and he's like, mom, you know, and he told my mom, what's three things you're never going to do. So my dad's like, yeah, I'm not going to like do laundry.
Yeah. Right. And it's like stupid shit like that. And it's like, okay. Um, so to this day, like, you know, owning a motel, he'll fix the laundry machine, everything like knows exactly how it works.
Yeah. But at home, couldn't figure out. I don't know how to twirl in the laundry machine. It's like, shut up, dude.
And then my mom was like, you know, no drinking, no like meat in the house, that kind of stuff. Not that my dad or us are vegetarians, but like just like not in the house. And like, so that sort of stuff, right?
It was like very typical. But they got introduced in San Francisco, in fact, at a motel in like a pretty bad part of San Francisco because another person in the cast owned it and was like, that was the middle ground between LA and Oregon. They met. uh separated for a few months or whatever got married um and then like another year later my mom my dad and then my mom's brother um and they all bought this motel in rural georgia um it was scouted out by another person in the cast that like lived like four hours away and was like hey this motel's for sale it's foreclosed you know uh you should make an offer then they borrowed money from like 10 different people in the cast all their savings and and bought the motel right um and then and then you know my brother was born i was born right and that's sort of uh You know, how we ended up in rural Georgia.
And we lived in the motel until I was like 10 or so. Did you work out of it at all? Oh, yeah, for sure, for sure.
The motels, like, you know, I loved doing night shift because that just meant, like, unsupervised, like, sitting on a computer all night, right? And what, like, teenager does not love that, right? When you come home from school or on the weekend, you're like, what is there to do besides, like, walk around with your dad or your brother or whatever and, like, uh... go go do whatever right um because i was younger they actually made me i didn't have to do nearly as much as my older brother yeah um but like he's three and a half years older okay cool um but at some point like even other cousins lived with us as well and things like that so there was there was a lot of people always in and out what were you doing in the night shifts on your computer yep playing games reading stuff posting on the internet posting shit posting which which forms form forms are like an integral part of like my internet culture and growing up right because I've been on on all sorts of forms from you know as a kid um you know you know like like it's what got me into what I do but like I've moderated many major forms um made auto moderation tools like all sorts of stuff uh read a lot of random you know things I think I think forms are very integral um but the breadth of them is is like very large right it goes all the way from like like you know things about maps and like politics and like history and human geography to of course like chip stuff right um like all like nvidia intel amd all this stuff android stuff you know um all sorts of stuff like that uh so it's pretty broad uh but generally every nerdy nerdy insight you could find and so you lived in this motel until you were 10 yeah and then what where do you move i think my my parents asked my brother uh what he wanted for his birthday yeah he's like i want to live in a real home and i was like it's like oh You call back to like the first memory my first memory was a sleepover in the like in like the back part of the motel Where I like there was like a skylight or wherever and we like laying down and having a sleepover with my cousin who's came from Alabama of their motel right like sick early memory, but like you know very fond memories of that place But my brother was like I want to live in a real house.
Yeah, it was like okay I guess we can how does it work with you you were you were doing these night shifts on your laptop What was he doing? No, I mean he generally did everything I did probably a little bit more he's older right and uh there's this like weird dynamic where like the older one always gets blamed for everything and the younger one gets uh babied um and so he generally did did that as well if you take after you you took after him we're very similar personality wise but very different interest wise um and so like you know there are a few areas where we differ I think he's more indecisive I'm more like very decisive um He's probably much more athletic than I am. I have, I have, I have, he generally has more charisma. I have, I have nerd riz. He has like regular riz.
I think, I think, so there's differences, but he's generally more, more jockey, more into like, you know, the normal sports and, and things like that. Right. Whereas I was always much more nerdy.
How would you describe yourself then? Beyond the nerd riz? The whole. labeling nerd geek like it was like really bad you know back in the day then it got really cool now it's like whatever right like i have interests But I would just say like I have many varied interests, right?
We'll do down to do anything, down to go anywhere. I think spontaneous is probably one of the biggest, decisive. I think those are sort of some of the characteristics I'd use to, and then obsessive. Like I get really obsessed in random things and will really focus in on them.
So I think that's sort of the like the few general characteristics that I would, you know, prescribe to myself. Intuitive, I think, is another one. What are some stuff early on that you went deep into?
The nerd journey started off obviously in video games, playing various video games, whether it be like Pokemon games or Yu-Gi-Oh games, card games, growing into MMOs like RuneScape, creating entire economies of people doing stuff for you in bulk and then arbitraging, merchanting, all these sorts of things in MMOs that are really fun, organizing an economy and profiting. um they wouldn't pay for memberships so i had to figure out how to pay for memberships on my own um which involved like tricking people into like doing work for way less or like merging them or whatever it is and then you know using that to pay for pay for stuff um but over time you know uh it sort of got more and more deep into what's going on but there was like sort of a decisive moment right which which happened with the xbox right um so on my eighth birthday i i wanted an xbox right it got announced in april birthdays in may yeah um and i was like i want an x they were like what do you want for your birthday i'm like i want an xbox for christmas yeah which is like an insane thing for an 80 year old to like yeah like prescribe so much like long-term duration like do to do but like we we i wanted the xbox got it um roll around my brother it was also my brother's christmas and birthday gift as well because his birthday is in December. So like it was. both of our christmas and birthday gifts that year um and then we you know i played it a ton he played it some he played more like madden games you know like nba etc i'd play like maybe a little bit nerdier games right um but anyways like at some point he you know he stopped he didn't play that much he backed off but i was still playing a ton and it was like maybe february or march right um and i got this hardware defect called the red ring of death um effectively the Xbox thinks it's overheating or is overheating. And there's a variety of tricks at the time.
It was a hardware defect that Microsoft did not recognize at the time yet, but they did eventually. But regardless, the Xbox was not working. And my cousin was coming. And I'd already bragged to him, he's between me and my brother in age. So I'm like, he needs to think I'm cool, right?
And he thinks my older brother is cool. So it's like, there's this whole internal dynamic. There's like, don't want parents to kill me for this, right? Because you're like, oh no, this is the end of the world, right? Because this is both of our birthday and present.
And all of his gifts. right can't have them kill me he's gonna tell on me my brother wasn't gonna tell on me yeah so researching online figuring out how to fix it um opening it opening up you know trying all the fixes that were simple but those didn't work opening it up and uh basically shorting the temperature sensor and like having it work for a few more months before recall happened but then like staying on those forms right so that that's like when it went from like gaming which like everyone likes to like oh there's like so much more right opening pandora's box into like what is hardware how does it work um that's sort of the initial stages of like going on to forums. Um, but there was also like all sorts of stuff, like, Hey, I watched this YouTube channel that played strategy games.
Right. And then like, I went on his forum. I was telling you about it the other day.
Right. The YouTube channel is like literally the Joseph V. Stalin, something, something YouTube channel. And he had a forum called Joseph V. Stalin, like blah, blah, blah.
And like, I remember going on there and arguing about like video game, like economic differences, right. Like for like paradox grand strategy games. um And so like devolves into anything, right? Like, you know, anything on the internet can devolve into politics.
Anything on the internet can devolve into like sort of anything. Yeah. So sort of like these sorts of topics, you know, just going deep into anything and arguing with could be another kid, could be a 40 year old. You never know.
Right. Um, and so that, that was like a very sort of, that's the very formative thing about forms. Um, and, and there's not much to do in rural Georgia, right? There's, there's, there were some things to do.
Yeah. But generally, like... a lot of time on the internet were you siloed in this pursuit of learning or where your friends were as black white and some indian were they also doing this stuff or it's just you on your laptop and your brother as well i guess um my brother was not really into forums i don't think he ever posted on forums yeah um none of my friends posted on forums like that um so it's certainly like it was just like a me thing um yeah i actually don't know i've met you know i'd since meant like over a thousand people, right, from the internet, right?
You know, just like people do. But that wasn't until like college and stuff, right? But like... Even in college, none of my friends post on forums, right? Because it's like the whole rule, right?
Like 99% of people just view, or 90% of people just view, 10% of people like, or whatever. And then 1% of people post, 0.1% of people moderate, or like are power posters. And then like 0.11% are moderators. And I was like, I was like way too deep.
Interesting. Were you anonymous or it was just like Dylan Patel? There were both.
There were both. Okay, cool. So, so. There are both types of accounts out there on the internet.
And hopefully a lot of it is scrubbed, but a lot of it is still there. Why did you want to scrub so bad? You never know what you, you know, like Google me and it's like Joseph V. Stahl in form, right?
It's like eight year old. I vividly remember I was like a child and I posted something and it was like a discussion on, I don't remember what the discussion was about, but I remember the reply immediately was like, cause I was like, you know, sort of like quick typing, right? Like instead of Y-O-U doing you and like things like that. And the guy was just like, yeah, I'm not going to engage with you if you type like this.
Yeah. And I'm like, misspellings. It's like, what am I doing? I was like, I just vividly remember like the internet argument warrior, you know, keyboard warrior developing because I needed to win arguments on the internet.
And then like someone just being like, yeah, I'm not even going to engage because you can't type properly. Remember your most heated argument? Basically back in the day, this is when I was getting my first cell phone. Right.
I was like 15 or something, right? Or 14. yeah um i don't remember exactly the age but i was getting my first cell phone um and i was like super researching into it i like chose which cell phone i wanted um it was an htc versus samsung at the time right i mean of course apple too but htc versus samsung at the time um and i was like super into like every single screen every single chip every single like aspect of it the cameras etc um and arguing with people about it all the time and i was moderating the forum as well but i noticed that like there were suspicious activity in terms of like people would post like very positive Samsung things at certain hours and like in bursts. Right. And so I was like, wait, is this like, is this like automated in some way?
And so like, I created a tool to like detect it and like remove this. Right. So it's like, it's like, it's such a heated argument, right.
That I like HTC so much. And like Samsung, I use Samsung a lot now, but like, you know, Samsung, Samsung, I was like, just despise them so much that I like caught this, like, you know, automated posting. So I think like, obviously there's arguments but then there's like what arguments turn into like i'm gonna censor this um i think that was probably one of the most heated arguments how old are you at that point yeah like 14 or so is it gonna give you a god complex to moderate and like remove people and i think most of the times it was just uh it was mostly just people who were you know misbehaving but you know power corrupt right and a 14 year old having the keys to the largest forms on android and intel and nvidia i guess in sixth grade you went to all these fights at 14 15 you're still no more physical fights now it's online and stuff i was i was online then too but yeah yeah it was it was always online right terminally online like we we must be yeah when did you end up buying magic drugs on the internet so so when i went to college um it became very simple to just like you know initially it was like buy weed oh people want weed sell weed to them right and it was like oh buy an ounce of weed instead of a little bit and then like it was like oh you can order weed off the internet and then like it was just like i did that and i ended up making you know let's just say tens of thousands of dollars in like three months before my brother kicked my ass and prevented me and was like you can't do this right like because it's obviously stupid to order yeah It's been 10 years right I'm 28 I was 18 the statute of limitations is up right so so fuck you fed I uh you know I think I think um it just became like an economic thing right it's like how do you fund like well initially it's like how do you fund partying how do you fund like smoking weed yeah then it became like oh fuck I'm making a lot of money yeah right um and so what are the margins looking like oh I mean the margins they were very good margins right like it's uh yeah What are you doing as a college student without money?
Right, exactly, exactly. So, so it was, like, quite a, it's, like, part, you know, it's, like, partially free, right? Use of, of, of, and I mostly only just smoked weed, right?
Yeah. I was in college, but, like, you know, free use of weed. Yeah.
All your, you know, smoking out a bunch of friends. Yeah. And then, like, a bunch of money to, to do whatever you want with drink and all that stuff, right?
Like, you know, so it's, like, it was, uh, the margins. were fantastic right especially if like you made brownies and stuff because you could make like four sheets of brownies in like a handful of hours and then that was like crazy margins yeah whereas like just selling an actual butt is how did your brother find out um i mean he was doing this but he didn't know like how much i think how big were the shipments are like they they compounded right like initially it was like just a little bit yeah you know you know on the scale of like a thousand dollars but then it like scaled and scaled actually the crazy thing is like if i just left all the money from the last transaction instead of pulling it out. Like, you know, just left it in Bitcoin and be like worth like $50, $100 million, something insane. Right. But they scaled to like, you know, like $8,000, $9,000 transaction that in Heim.
Yeah. So they started to like scale quite a bit. There's two things we should touch on.
When did you learn to code and then, you know, remove all these automated stuff on their forums? And then when did you start to dabble in like drugs or like again into all these like very obscure things that very much weren't immigrant indian commonalities right okay like i'm actually gonna do all this random stuff was it in college or more open to this um so so as far as like programming i think it was my cousin it was her myspace okay and she wanted me to help her like she was like i was just watching her like yeah you know customize the music and stuff and there's like a lot of effects if she opened up the thing like that's when i learned how to like whatever that's coding right um and i think more so it was like when i was making up moderation tools right Those are the two sort of formative moments when I did some programming. As far as like not Indian immigrant things, like I think I think this sort of dovetails into like, yes, I was a super nerd.
But there was also other aspects of like I was a very rural country boy, like hunting, fishing, shooting guns, you know, all these sorts of things. I think that that happened anyways, hanging out with friends and going like doing dip. and drinking with them while sitting in a deer stand. This sort of wasn't all at once when I got into college.
Obviously, it was a little bit, and then it devolved. Not devolved, but I think it defined in college. I wasn't a degenerate, but I think there's a couple different moments where it sort of dovetailed into that.
Did you have good grades? I had decent grades. Even in high school, I never was like, top of the class but i was always like pretty good yeah um you know almost always usually except for like one class where i uh helped a kid on the final and then i got like a zero for it you know whatever so i didn't i got like a three in the class how much were you cheating these classes like me in high school i cheated the fuck out of everything um i assume you were running i personally cheated a lot in spanish oh yeah same um and then latin yeah right and then virtual german right like i cheated in those three languages well like you have to take a language every year. Oh, you didn't take the same one each year.
I took Spanish a couple years. I see. And then I took Latin a year.
And then I took virtual Germany a year. Because I didn't want to, like, continue, right? Because the scaling of, like, if you cheat, you're only hurting yourself, right?
To be clear. And even though, like, I learned no Spanish in high school. But I, like, now speak Spanish, right?
So it's like. Was that the Latina? Living in Latin America. Yeah, yeah.
But that's, I think. So cheating, cheating was like one aspect. What was the rest of the, what was the rest of the question?
What were you, how much were you cheating? Like for me, for example. Oh, and then I was helping other people, right? I was helping other people a lot, right? Like in class, I was like, whatever, right?
Friends and you know, yeah, it's this answer, right? It's like, yeah. So, so that, that was like, I never really got caught, but other people got caught.
Yeah. Uh, like I texted people answers before, right? You know, it's like, oh, you know, this is a, then they get caught looking at their phone. Yeah. Yeah.
What was your favorite class? Favorite class? Or least favorite, maybe both. I think my favorite class was probably American History or Psychology.
Those were incredibly interesting classes. The teacher was the best. I used to sit in the back and then she moved me to the front. Then I still talked too much and she moved me back to the back.
It was great. I think that was probably my favorite class. uh least favorite class was was calculus um or english right english for sure uh actually yeah yeah i revised english i hated calculus because the because the teacher sucked but english even more yeah um in the 11th grade because my handwriting was so bad she printed out you know those like children's like dotted line letter things she printed out a whole stack called me to the front of class gave them to me like publicly in front of the entire class you I was like, oh, God. Oh, man.
Were you... friends with most people or were you just like kind of the nerdy guy who was also cheating and kind of clowning around or most of these people were your friends um i think i think most people were acquaintances i don't think i was like super cool but i think i was like friendly with a lot of different people yeah um it's not like people wouldn't talk to me i wouldn't talk to them yeah um but i think you know yeah i wouldn't say popular i wouldn't say loser i wouldn't say nerdy because like the nerds were actually caring about class yeah um and caring about grades and studying and etc and like i didn't care so it's like sort of in the mix um think class clown but maybe not so funny um and that's sort of uh where i was there were plenty of pranks i mean trolling is like an integral part of like who i am right um i think it's i think it's mostly just like messing with people like telling people that there's like xyz for class due or something's requirement something done and they freak out and then you're like no no never mind i miss her there's like there's like uh we filled up entire like senior pranks are like you know like common but we just did them like multiple times and throughout the year even when we were at seniors like filling up water cups all across like the lunchroom and like you know putting you know barricading doors and stuff like all sorts of stupid stuff. So your brother is now in the...
medical profession you said and as a doctor at this time you were kind of dicking around you're also exploring a lot what was he doing at this time you know we went to the same college right um he was also like when i got to call so we we kind of didn't like each other when we were like like when i was in high school i was um we were just like different and like you know like i was a little pansy like i would always complain and run to my parents like oh he's doing this to me mom and he's like, you know, tough guy, cool guy, right? So, but... Anyways, his friends had put me in a trash can when I was a freshman in high school.
And he's a senior and he's just watching. He's laughing. It's like, okay, great.
But once we got to college, I was like, oh, wow. My brother is immensely cool. He was legitimately one of the coolest people.
How so? What was he doing? All the people knew him.
Everyone knew him. I see. Were you in a frat?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But everyone knew him. All the girls knew him.
All the guys knew him. He was just so cool. And like immediately I get there and it's like all these people are like, oh, you're his brother.
You're going to come like do this or that. And I was like, oh, my God. Right.
And then and then I got like super close to my brother. He was like, wait a second. I'm the one who's a little pansy. He's like he's a cool guy. Why was he so popular?
What was he doing? He's got the regular charisma. Life of the party.
Funny guy. That's funny. Yeah.
Has he ever traveled anywhere in college? You fly to other countries? No, no. Because too cheap. to do that right and i think but you're making 30 30k with with your you know illicit sales i feel like i was going somewhere right but it was the stock market right you know this is a different it's a different story um also it went to drinking instead right but um also had internships throughout college and doing work in random companies but like the uh like we would we would take trips to other schools right um because you know other other schools whether for football games or for like events, these sorts of things were quite, you know, integrated, but never like other countries, right?
Like, like, I'd flown through Europe, but I'd never actually properly visited Europe until after college, right? Yeah. Mostly, like our family trips were always just to India. Okay. Or to other parts of the US, right?
You know, just driving around, like every summer, we'd go to every, like so many different families houses across like, rural. America motel owners basically. So no big trips in college.
You were studying what three or four majors you said? Yeah. So it was information systems like analytics or yeah. Which is like more like a data science type thing.
That's all bullshit major. I mean they were, they were high job placement rate majors. I think it was literally the four highest job placement rate like majors at my school. Risk management insurance. Then I got a legal study certificate.
Right. And it's like, okay. I was just kind of adding stuff because I didn't want to graduate early.
I still ended up graduating a semester early, but like, yeah. Why did you finish? I feel like you, you'd be very inclined to drop out.
I mean, you, you don't have to, I mean like class is fine. It's just, you go there, college is fun. College isn't that hard.
Yeah. If you're doing, you know, kind of more bullshitty majors like I did. Right.
Yeah. I mean, you're just hanging out with people all the time, making sure you pass tests. Right. Like it's, there's no need to drop out. Right.
crashing out in life you know that's that's a later thing right do you think it's crashing out i mean there's so many kids today dropping out do you view them as crashing out no no no crashing crashing out is like more of a different loaded term i think uh i think like i think dropping out is fine right there's like especially in the bay area there's all the people that are like oh yeah you'll till till you know you'll prod neo yeah yeah exactly i don't think it's necessarily like a bad thing. I don't think anyone... around me ever did that or I didn't even know that this was a thing yeah like dropping out and being like a cracked startup founder it did not exist yeah anywhere in where I grew up anywhere in the college I went to just did not exist I guess when you get interested in semis and get interested in all that entire world was this during college a bit before online when you really go deep into that um so it was steady right it was initially xbox broke being on the forums by the time I was like 12. Started moderating Android.
And by the time I was like 14, like NVIDIA, Intel, AMD hardware, like all these different forms I was moderating. So by then I was like certainly like very interested in semis. Although not as much like the business and manufacturing of it or supply chains, but more like the end consumer products.
But once I started making money, whether it was through illicit means or through like the various internships I had in college. I would invest a lot of money. And I was reading all the companies' earnings.
You know, I liked SSDs. And I was like, oh, how do I invest in people who make SSDs? Because they're going to blow up. They're going to be in every PC one day. And this is like in high school.
And I'm like, oh, wait, the SSD companies have really low margins, right? Companies building Flash have low margins. And I was like, oh, the equipment supply chain. That's who makes the most money. So then I started really diving into all across the ecosystem, how that floated.
And then that's sort of how it went from like, oh, I like, you know. gaming chips and like what they do and discussing them to like i like the supply chain and how it connects together how people make who makes money how to make money from that um how to how to track the supply chain who the actual beneficiary is that sort of happened late high school early um early college um but it was still mostly like just an investing uh posting anonymously on internet type of thing and then it really became a full-blown like I would say like, I mean, it was, it was, I mean, anyone would call it an obsession at that point in moderating forums and I'm like investing in it, but like it didn't become a full blown thing until I was like, you know, quote unquote crashing out when I was like 24 or 23 in 2020. Right. When did you start going to conferences?
Yeah. So that's, that's sort of basically like taking it through the path of like, so 2020, you know, crashing out a bit, right. Relationship ended.
My grandmother who grew up with us passed away. um, COVID, uh, I got really jaded with my job and I didn't really get like rewarded for the work I did. Um, and even though I was doing fantastic, um, all of those things happened in early 2020, uh, you know, moved in with my brother for a few months and I started traveling across America, right.
Going to all the national parks, living out of my truck, um, all that. And then I went to LATAM for a year or two. Um, but you know, in that like 22 is when I started, I went, I got invited to a conference by Intel, their own conference. And they paid for me to go.
And then I went and then I was like, wow, this is amazing. I'm meeting all these people. Why don't I go to this conference? That's like two weeks from now. That's like not, you know, just pay to go there.
And then, and then I just started going to every conference I could. So in 22, I went to about 40 conferences and in 23 and 24, I went to like 45 ish conferences. This goes all the way from like, you know, a photo resist conference that is in Japan.
This is the material you put on a wafer before you put a lithography tool all the way to. um you know conferences about ml um and you know all you know the whole ecosystem um and technical stuff not like trade trade shows as well but you go to a trade show and you just ask this like people like how who their competitor are why their products good blah blah blah right and it's just talking to people all week about it reading the papers under trying to understand the presentations making contacts um that sort of happened in 22 to 24 right and i still go to a lot but like maybe not as much as I did then because I'm trying to slow down the traveling. a bit take a step back from there after college you said you were in insurance you mentioned you did quite well how do you get from there to then okay like covid hit and then all this sorts of stuff yeah so right after college so i wasn't necessarily an insurance but i was at a i was a brokerage firm who did who would take risk from insurance companies and like structure it himself yeah right um and um i was initially just doing like some modeling and like actuarial type stuff and then i started like you know because i'm business oriented i started like making structures and things, right? Um, and then, you know, sort of like I mentioned 2020 crashing out, uh, not crashing out, but like, you know, sort of just like low point, right.
Really low point, probably maybe the lowest point in my life. Right. Um, you know, there was nothing else to do. It's like, I'm not interested in this work anymore. I'm quite quitting.
Let me do what I like to do, which is like, you know, going back to like, Oh, posting more on forums and things like that. And like, uh, making anonymous blogs and things like that. That's, that's sort of when it like, and then once I made it a non-anonymous blog, people, you know, People started doing more and more consulting.
They were like, yeah, can we consult with you because you're hosting intelligent things. And so that's sort of like, and I started making money off it. I was like, oh, wow, wait. You had made money at this point. Correct me if I'm wrong.
You had generated your firm, good amount of upside. You got your good bit of a bonus. So at this point, really, money is not your core driver. It's really, what do I actually enjoy?
What do I want to do with my life? I mean, money is always partially a driver, but it surely was not like the main focus. it was mostly Um, what do I enjoy doing? Cause I'm not enjoying what I'm doing, not enjoying who I am.
I'm not enjoying like, like, you know, let me, let me reinvent myself. Right. So let me, let me, uh, quite quit my job. Let me work on what I enjoy working on. Let me travel across the nation and go to all these national parks.
I can clear my head. Um, you know, this, this sort of like, you know, and it's sort of like all hearkening back to things from earlier in my life. Right. Uh, whether it be the form stuff or the, or the like nature oriented stuff.
Right. Because, um, you know, with my dad's best friend from my childhood, right? Jerome Smiley. He was the sheriff of the town.
Black sheriff in a rural America town that was slightly higher white percentage. It was very interesting. He was my dad's best friend.
He taught us how to fish and, you know, all these other things, barbecue, hunt, et cetera. So it was like it was like hearkening back to things from my childhood that like I guess maybe I found comfort in. But then it wasn't like an intentional decision to make my company what it is.
Right. It just sort of happened. Yeah. Through like people going consulting.
People like, oh, look like this is what you should do. Yeah. Someone not paying for a report from the consulting.
So I posted it behind a paywall. Right. Like this sort of like.
all kind of just happened and like naturally morphed into things, right? Just doing what I enjoy, right? And clearing my head and then like being in a better headspace to work, you know, work harder and better.
Yeah. There's a lot of people who DM me now or comment on Twitter or something and say, hey, I'm really confused in life. I want to do this.
I can't. I don't live in the Bay Area. I live in this foreign country.
I like tech. I know how to break in. They're pretty confused in life.
You were, I guess, similarly at a... point where you're a bit confused not happy with your current life wanting to do something different what would you tell these people will you how do you actually figure out what you enjoy how do you take that step to be like fuck you i'm gonna go travel the world read books a bit figure out what i like and kind of disassociate from other people what did you do to convince yourself to actually do that what would you tell these people then i mean it's it's great to like pretend like this is a conscious yeah planned decision yeah yeah um But as someone who is like quite spontaneous and, you know, the serendipity of like this choice was not brought upon me. It was not premeditated. Right.
It was like, I'm just going to do things that maybe feel good or make me feel better. And and sort of I would say the main thing is like, I think especially now more than ever, information, access to information is is infinite. The ability to learn how to do something is almost infinite, right? The capability to do things is infinite. But a lot of times people want to do the same things other people have already done, which is fine.
But like life is about making your own path, right? Like cookie cutter life is not what... It's boring. It's boring, right? And as far as like the Bay Area, I mean, I didn't move here until like this year, right?
To be clear, right? You haven't officially moved here? Yeah, I've officially sort of moved here, I think. um we'll we'll we'll we'll knock on wood and see for sure but i'm pretty sure i've moved here or catch thing like the the maximum amount of days that you can without that was that was last year we will see if i can do that this year but i you know knock on wood we'll see we'll see um the the thing is like you don't need to be in the bay i mean i think this is one of the best places right weather's amazing and people are high openness and um although there are like negative aspects that people can drone on about as well. But there is generally high capacity to do almost anything.
But it's also easy to fall into like monoculture doing the same thing as everyone else. Being, you know, elite coder falling into that culture of like, you know, I'm the Twitter cracked engineer. You know, that's certainly not that's certainly not the path that like everyone must go.
But you kind of have to define yourself with a tribe or a culture or something. Find belonging. Right. And I feel like those things are maybe overrated. Right.
Like I didn't, I guess. I had belonging on the online community when I was traveling across the nation. Right. But, you know, talking to wasn't talking to my friends that much during that sort of like six month road trip, even when I started going to LATAM and then eventually like all around Asia and US for conferences and stuff.
I think was like more about like focusing on myself and what I needed to do. Still talking to my best friends, you know, but like not much and family. Right. Because I have a really large family, but not much else. Cool.
Um, I think, um, it's also difficult without support structures. I think most people don't have like emotional family support structures and I'm not sure, even though mine never said, go do this, right. They were like adamantly like, what the heck are you doing?
Um, can you stop doing this? Can you come back home? Could you like just have a job and be normal? Like how are you even paying for this? Like, you know, kind of questions.
Um, I think, I think the main point of advice is just Like if you really enjoy something. try to become one of the foremost experts on it right um or try and talk to those people because one of the things i learned early on is you can talk to anyone on the internet and you can just reach out to anyone and most people just say yes but no one does it how'd you reach out was it cold emails were you dming them on something cold emails was much later right because uh that's like a boomer thing to do um but uh i think i think initially it was like people on forms right there's like real like you know really smart people who are on forums or on twitter or on you know um other social media and you can just reach out to them that way um i think emails obviously started doing that as well uh emailing random authors of papers like they almost always respond yeah right um i think it's like yeah i think i think generally how did it start is is i'm not sure i think the internet has just always felt like completely accessible right i mentioned right yeah most people were anonymous and you couldn't tell if someone was like 12 like me or they were some 35 year old engineer who actually works on it yeah you can't tell who's crazy who's not you have to just be able to build that from like looking at the post and judging independently and that was the beauty of like oh yes you can tell the person who actually built it they're wrong right and that's uh and then and then they'll write like 10 paragraphs about, no, you're, you're. a dumb child like this is what it is yeah yeah um so i think i think that part of the internet kind of desensitized me to like you don't look at authority figures the same way um rather the content of what they are and what they can do rather than like they're an authority figure because they're an authority figure and i think that like that belief of the internet which you wouldn't do that in real life that much right you wouldn't just like upend any any power structure right away because that'll alienate you in some way.
So how was it at conferences? Yeah. I mean, like initially it was just like, who's this random kid? What does he do?
Okay. He's like got a blog. He likes, he's like asking interesting questions and he wants to learn about like what we do. And like, no one ever asked me with this much enthusiasm what I do and why and the exact intricacies of how it works.
And so that was like, the perception was generally positive. Some people were like, I'm not going to waste my time talking to you because a lot of people are transactional. Actually in the Bay, people seem to be more transactional in many ways than other areas.
Um, but. generally like people most people are not transactional they will just like talk and they like to talk about what they love to do um and not everyone is super passionate about what they do right at a conference right to be clear so you have to find those right people um some people are like oh no no you're nobody like i'm not going to talk to you right right like so it's like you just have to find the right people and that's the perception take a bit more into when you stayed at your brother's place and you left and you started traveling into lat am all those stories how about how about if we could double click on the stanger your brother and then we go to the rug. My, my like grandmother passed away um had her funeral uh the next weekend uh country started to shut down but i was like i was like like so like i need to clear my mind so i flew to or i went to san diego um rented a bike and i biked across the border to mexico and back oh wow it's like a 70 mile bike um that that weekend and then i flew back home That Tuesday, the company was like, oh, we're going to shut down the offices. I'm talking to my brother.
I'm still sad. I cleared my mind a good bit from that bike, but I was talking to my brother. I was still kind of sad.
He's like, they're going to shut down the country. Why don't you come here for two, three weeks? Then while they shut down, you have to work from home, right?
It was just fine. Okay. Then I came to his place and it ended up being months.
Older brother, it's his place. obviously the rules of the the game or like it's him right but then i'm like someone who doesn't follow rules so like kind of like uh kind of is difficult to uh square these two um furthermore he's like with his fiance or like sort of his uh fiance right um and she lives there funnily enough right like my parents are so indian and her parents are so indian they were like oh no no no if you guys want to live together even though you're the same like first of all you shouldn't the mom's like you shouldn't live together because you're not married yet yeah um and then it was like okay fine you guys can live together but you have to get a two-bedroom soon as covid happens i fly there it's like like i'm telling my mom yeah i'm sleeping on the couch because like there's some different rooms obviously um but like it was like a it was like a very interesting like uh like dynamic because my brother and i would confront a lot and then my sister-in-law is like sort of like chill mediator we would both listen to her i think um but we would just like watch movies all the time and all this it was like it was good but then like there's a lot of arguments right about like stupid stuff right like I made French toast every day with thinly cut strawberries for like months. And like, sometimes he didn't like which knife I used to cut the strawberries.
Like fucking stupid shit like that, which like leads you to like, you know, okay, I got to get, get out of there. Right. Um, and so it was like, like all of the negative things of like the beginning of the year are still there.
Right. No fulfillment in the job. Yeah. Um, you know, inside all the time I was, I was running and working out a lot, but like that didn't, that didn't really, that, that is the natural dopamine release, you know, all that, but didn't fix, you know, arguing with brother all the time um just generally not happy um when yours is to be exact this is 2020 2020 this is 2020 and that's that's when like i was like i like you know i was watching youtube videos like oh there's like this national park yeah you can go there i'm like i want to go to this national park um why don't i do that right um so then i like ordered a truck tent uh truck bed tent right because i have a truck anyways this is rural georgia boy right you know and also there's like tax benefits to be interesting, Trice.
There's many, many layers to this. You get the truck tent. I got a drone. I got a GoPro. I got an air mattress, sort of cooler, right?
All these things. Get them. I fly back to where my vehicle is. It was actually in Minnesota.
This is only like weeks. This is like two weeks after Floyd riots happened. Yeah, yeah. So I fly back and like half of my stuff was stolen out of my apartment by the way.
That's pretty hilarious. Wow. Anyways, not hilarious. I got renter's insurance. It was hilarious for that reason.
But, you know, I grab my stuff. I start driving west to North Dakota going towards where the Badlands are. um and on the way i stop in a restaurant and they're like oh where are you coming from i'm like i'm coming from minnesota and they're like oh you know you're like you're running away from the floyd riots and i'm like yes absolutely it's like you know it's like this sort of like and like from then i was like oh man this is great because like just not because of that like that not that cultural vibe but like it's like oh wait i can just say whatever i want and like everyone's gonna vibe right yeah um as long as you like uh so like on the open road listening to like random country music that I grew up with or like all like rock or whatever right that I like sort of got into or or R&B and you know whatever kind of music and just like driving and then like going random places hiking flying the drone all sorts of different things like that um was was was magnificent right and that's sort of how that happened um and so I go to all these national parks I meet all sorts of random people on hikes um some people I still talk to to these days right Like, you know, like. people that were just like oh we're going on the same hike cool talking for like six hours eight hours whatever um but then the the last last day that i was uh hiking i was in glacier i was doing a glacier national park i was doing a really long hike um and as i was going a grizzly bear walked three feet in front of me turned to me like turned to me and then like turned i had my hand on the bear spray it was like like it was like between like me and you right like it was like that close i had my hand on it bear spray but i didn't spray it speak of bears yeah speak of the gorilla gorilla or bear what's more scary probably probably oh silverback silverback yeah versus grizzly probably gorilla the gorilla's faster is it gorilla has more turning capabilities yeah i think it would fuck you up quite fast yeah yeah i'd say i'd take death by bear the bear probably kills you on one hit whereas the gorilla may like yeah i don't know i'm just thinking donkey kong right doing the like It's like in Super Smash Bros. Yeah, yeah, that's exact.
I immediately left Glacier Park, National Park, I said that happened. I drove to Seattle. You didn't do anything there? Huh?
No, I just looked at me and I like saw, saw like my life flat, right? Because I immediately did not hike. Yeah.
Any more that season. I went to, yeah. It was midday, evening, what time of day?
This is like, this is like, you know, three or four. Oh, wow. But I'd been up since like six or whatever, right?
I'd go all the way to Seattle in the next couple of days. um i just chilled there for a couple months yeah and then my friend who uh from college who was like indoors the whole time decided to uh was like yo let's let's go let's go to like argentina or colombia and i'm like sure let's do it so we went in in in late january of 2020 uh one like we got our yeah so then we went and and then that was like a whole different chapter right it was like exploring Latin with him. uh the girl i started uh dating uh at a bilingual trivia um it was uh yeah she yeah anyways like we we started i was traveling with him i was traveling with her went all over latam um learned spanish yeah right that was fun yeah um can't cheat now yeah can't cheat on spanish although google translate is like oh yeah pretty good it's it's it's it's it's unbeatable especially with like a voice mode on on chai jabutina you can do a lot of things. So that's sort of how that sort of happened. Yeah.
But like in LATAM, like doing all sorts of stuff, like going to all the natural beauties, right? Kokora Valley, all the coffee plantations, going to Iguazu Falls, some of the most beautiful things in the world. Yeah.
Have you seen the Seven Wonders? What are the, which are the Seven Wonders? You tell me, I feel like you would be more well-versed.
I don't know if I know all of them actually. You know, to be able to count to seven is a monumentous task. But I think these, these two things at least were some of the most beautiful things that I saw ever.
Iguazu Falls may be the most beautiful waterfall in the world that I've seen. It's in like a rainforest. There's this massive waterfall, huge volumes of water.
There's a lot of life around, whereas like most of the waterfalls you see are pretty desolate. Like Niagara Falls is just like, you know, gift shop slop everywhere. It's like, what is there to do? What did your day look like?
Were you writing pieces and researching and moderating? I mean, I stopped moderating as soon as I got to college, right? Like I was like you know yeah i mean i still maintained like the position like eventually like people removed my accounts from like moderating various subreddits because it's inactive yeah um but it was mostly like just posting less and less over college and working where I was more focused on like other things, but it was like investing the stuff or other forms and mediums, like not, not, not those forms, but now like random discords that were invite only or like Twitter. Um, but my day to day, uh, during that time period, really, you know, yes, I was doing all these different things and weird things like going places, looking at stuff.
Um, it was, it was quite typical, right? It was like, or it was like, you know, there was no specific thing I was doing, but it was always, either read like an engineering textbook or like that was like about some aspect of the supply chain or some part of the engineering stack in semiconductors looking at companies earnings looking at all the technology like look at the technical comparisons reading papers and like just trying to understand and map things and explain supply chains understand them post about them random people would ask consulting things look at what they ask you and and try and figure that out and help them, right? That's sort of like...
what the day-to-day was like. It wasn't that like, um, it was highly variable in terms of what topics I was on, but the general method was just like, and I still say this to the day, to this day, right. Even though now the company has like people who've worked in many fields, right. But it's like, we may not know something, but we'll figure it out a lot faster than you'll ever figure it out. Um, and so that's sort of like, I think that's, that's a lot of the like, um, path that is.
What do your parents think at this time? Were they bit more okay like i'm making a bit a bit of money now yeah what the hell for context your brother's like on the path to being a doctorate right yeah yeah so so like you got a latina girlfriend and you're well they didn't they didn't they actually still don't know that i ever had that we'll cut it we'll cut it no no you're fine you're fine like you know it's it's just you know indian parents oh you know it's like uh um so i would say like you know it requires a little context right it's not just like being indian it's that like which i think a lot of people have experienced it's being Indian and rural America. So there's no, you know, whereas like a lot of the Indian people I know who have grown up in cities, their friends are able, their parents are able to find like-minded friends. You know, yes, my dad was best friends with the sheriff of the town. He was a black guy.
He was like, that's very different, very different culture. But like integration into society is like quite different. Right.
Yeah. My parents, one of the things that they were told when they moved to the town was go to church. So people in the city, like trust you because they've never seen a brown person, first of all, or at least have had them move in. um and buy a business right so like they go to church but it's like this is like a psyop right this is not real um we're going to the they're going to the baptist church the white one or in the black one right but like they don't believe in this they're still hindus right but like the context here is that my whole family has done the exact same thing right extended family um you know there's there's like 10 families on my mom's side like 10 families on my dad's side whether it be brothers sisters first cousins second cousins whatever all over america um and in the summers we would go to each other's houses.
um you know like we would basically like the parents would shuttle the kids around and like by by like the mid-summer there's like 15 kids or 10 kids at each different person families like motel right and so we're like we're like super tight or like you know um indians sort of like obviously the caste system is not a good thing yeah um especially in india uh but something uniquely about like like gujaratis who uh who like are in the motel business especially because it's not just like you know it's one thing to be an indian who like most of the like south indians or roth indian other in other types of indians immigrated and were like engineers or doctors or whatever right whereas like yeah my dad did get like a math master's and my mom with like a degree as well like they were they were educated but like in india but like they weren't like working on that right they're business owners and so there's the community network of like continuing to give each other advice. hey this is where you can get a cheap air conditioner here's how you fix this kind of air conditioner or laundry machine here's a part that you can buy that's not the oem part to fix it right or here's like tips on how to raise rates um how to profile people in charge price discriminate on rooms or like suppliers for like linen like all sorts of stuff like this and there'd be annual conventions right so we have there's actually an annual volleyball tournament and an annual convention for my cast right i actually got canceled for posting about my volleyball tournament on Twitter recently. But the convention was, like, also part of this, right?
Like, I had my first kiss when I was, like, 16 at this, like, convention, right? Like, I think I got drunk for, like, the third time in my life. And, like, I made out with, like, this other random girl. Like, it's, like, very integrated into, like, who we are, right? Very different than, like, most Indians.
So it's, like, very deep-seated. And then it's, like, okay, no, you know, and then, like, you look at, like, that was that class of people. And then the next generation is all, like, medical field, right?
Yeah. everyone in my family all of my cousins but like they're again like i said 15 or so on my mom's side 15 or so on my dad's side that will like i know and talk to have group chats with they all are in the medical profession or continue to run parents motel right some of them and it's like First of all, I wasn't doing any of that, but it was fine because I was working a job and good money. Right. But then it was like, oh, now he's just like traveling and camping and stuff.
That's, that's weird. Like, yeah, some, some, some family members have done like Boy Scouts or whatever. This is not the same. Um, that's like, he's in, he's in Argentina. Yeah.
What? Um, so certainly it was like, it was like very worrisome. Like my mom would always, like I talked to my mom, I used to talk, like almost every day.
Right. And she would always be like, be safe, be safe, make sure. Like, don't camp. Just stay in a motel. I'll pay for it.
It's like, it's not for the money, mom. It's like, you know, I mean, it was partially, but like, it was mostly just for the vibes. Like, like to the point where, you know, just like the disconnect is huge, right?
Like I went to Japan for like four or five months in 22. I mean, I've done multiple like longer trips there before now or since then. But the first time she's like, oh, be safe. Japan's not safe. I hear it.
I'm like, Japan is the safest country on this planet. I would drop off like a, like my, like seven-year-old niece and she would be fine if she was alone in Japan. Like there's no other part of the world that I'd be okay with doing this.
Yeah. And it's like, it's like the, the, the like lack of understanding is like very difficult to bridge that gap. Yeah.
What year is this now? We were in Argentina and you stayed there for how long? Um, Argentina was three months. I mean, it was most LATAM countries I stayed three months roughly, right? Mexico.
Um, I went to El Salvador recently just to check it out because there's all the like, like. like, oh, is Bukele a dictator or not? Like, what's up? Check it out. How was it?
Oh, so El Salvador is really cool because, like, there's, like, as soon as you leave this, like, airport, there's, like, or not, like, you're leaving the airport, there's, like, a shrine to him, basically. It's like, okay, this is quite odd. Like, we usually don't idolize people so much.
But there's no nightlife because he rounded up all the criminals and put them in jail, and, like, nightlife is run by criminals, right? Like, come on. So there's, like, no nightlife at all. um but it was pretty it was pretty interesting it was not but like you know there's like columbia and peru and argentina and brazil baragua uruguay um yeah chile right like i went to all these places um but argentina you know was was probably one of the most interesting ones um what are some crazy stories since your passport passport got taken right yeah so i'm in i'm in the wine country yeah of argentina um my flight back to america is in like two weeks um get held up and my passport gets stolen right um and i have a flight back to buenos aires where the only embassy in argentina is um in like a week or like in a few days they won't let me board the plane yeah so i have to figure out how to get from there because i don't have an id yeah i have to figure out how to get from there to buenos aires like without an id yeah um i thankfully still had cash and stuff right uh um Also in Argentina, like at the time the currency was pegged, it was like one to 100 if you did the official exchange rates.
But if you did the unofficial one, it was like one to like 300 when I first got there. It was like one to 600 by the time I left just three months later. So I came with like five grand cash.
And I didn't even use that much. But you'd show up, you'd exchange like 200 bucks and get like a roll of cash. It'd be like you just have this big wad in your pocket. Anyways, I had to figure out how to get there.
It was an 18 hour bus that I had to get on. and travel across the entire nation. You weren't getting tired of the travel? All the driving, the buses, the flights? What did you do?
I think that I only got tired of traveling, like truly tired, like last year. And even then, I still love traveling. But you're still flying economy. You were trying to be quite frugal, I assume. Oh, for sure, for sure.
Float flu economy, would take cheap flights, would stay at shitty motels, Airbnbs, like a lot of this, right? Using the Patel Motel cartel to get owner's rates. at hotels like i was technically an employee of like hilton and holiday inn and econolodge and like roadway and like a number of other hotel brands and motel brands i could get owner's rates at all these places i was like very fruitful and cheap just like it's like it's like genetically embedded within your drattis to do this um but yeah so i mean i don't know there's like young passion um drive desire um enjoyment like how novel it is didn't get tired of traveling right I'm still, still not tired of traveling per se, but now I travel a lot less because I'm like, uh, in a different stage of life now, I think over the last year, right.
Uh, to now, right. Kind of a lot of shifted. Um, what stage of life are you in now? And so it was one thing to like be, you know, solo started the company in 2020, hired the first person end of 2022. Yeah. Um, mostly doing consulting and, and like the, the paid reports, the blog, right.
Et cetera. But then the business transformed into... uh you know selling data right or built building data sets and selling yeah right um and when the business truly flipped to that we're now 95 of the revenue is that data and consulting on it yeah let's say it's it's like 20 mil cool um and so it like really flipped when that sort of happened and started hiring more and more and really like when i started not even working directly with all the people that i'd hired but like it sort of really flipped to like wait i don't need to know every single thing about the entire supply chain top to bottom yeah i still do i still still do try to because my passion like i wanted to do that um but i don't need to go to every single conference I don't need to try and read every single paper.
I don't need to, like, make every single contact. Other people can help me. How did you make your first hire?
How did I make my first hire? Yeah. A guy on Discord. And where did they stay?
Singapore. How did you vet him? I've known him for 10 years on Discord. I didn't know who he was.
But, like, he would pop in and out. How many hires do you have now? How big is the team? There's 26 people who work at the company now. Cool.
All over the world, right? US, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, France, Germany. Canada.
Yeah. Well, it'll be one less country. He's gone.
Um, yeah, like they're all over, but like, I think almost everyone I hired was online, right? Either discord, Twitter, uh, or, uh, I put, I put out like I was hiring and someone reached out like on, on Twitter or on the newsletter and they reached out. Um, that's like, or, or, at conferences like when i started like when revenue started scaling in like 2022 2023 a lot i would just like go to conferences i'd be like after talking to someone for 30 minutes they're really smart and young i'd be like you want a job how are you vetting other people if you met him online i guess the first guy i knew for 10 years what about the other people you can contract you can yeah do these sorts of things right you the people that i knew already online were very easy um one of the kids that i tried to hire he was 16 i had to convince his parents to let me pay him i didn't know he was 16 yeah because I've been talking to him online for five years. Oh man. Omega crack.
Now he's in the military. Oh wow. Cause it's like forced military service in Singapore. It's another Singaporean.
But like, like I'm trying to convince his parents to let him just like not go to college and work for me. He's going to make way more money than like, yeah. Anyways, it's like vetting people is, is difficult.
It's all, it's almost all vibes, right? Like people are like, Oh, what's your, you know, cause compensation, I pay well, right? Cause half the company is X industry roughly.
And then the other half, the company is X hedge fund. Bar of pay is like quite good people from pod shops and managers, right? Yeah, I mean there's there's like a coaching sit down one of my guys is like One of the most important people the company Dan was like Bally as any podcast I like a very different like mindset than me completely. That's good You want the diversity of thought right and there's a number of other people who've worked at long like, you know Hedge funds and all these other things, right?
Yeah But mostly by like by side side right for that half and then industry. It's like people I met at conferences, right? um so so sort of or or online yeah um and so uh you know just finding high agency people and it's like just a vibe right uh when they talk do they have passion yeah um even if they're not a good speaker do they have passion work trials anybody who can't speak english on your team oh everyone can speak english um there's some people that aren't that great at it uh but they've gotten a lot better because we're an english company you know like it's it's it's necessary right um like like one of the guys we have in taiwan is actually not that good at english he's really good so it's fine um did you did you ever foresee your life playing out like this oh absolutely not i had no idea uh you know there's always the like you know like i mentioned right like this grand vision the strategy this like what is the eventual goal target don't don't think you know even even like now i like i think i have more clarity just because there's more stability and like the revenue and the business and what it is and where it will go.
But like. there's a lot of other things I'm working on that could or could not be right. Um, and even two years from now, like, is the business makeup going to be this wet?
Right. Um, who knows? It's like a launching off point to do more and more and more. Um, you know, there, there's like, there's all these different things that I'm trying to work on that are not, you know, and if any of them strike then like really well or turn out well, then all of a sudden what, what I'm working on in a year or two will be, will be a very different path.
Uh, but definitely the like rate of change. in terms of what's going on and what work is being done is slowed down. But the rate of change of like, you know, like the business growth is fantastic, but everything else is like, nothing will ever like be like, oh, I'm just like in Latin America, like traveling around with, you know, my, my, one of my best friends. And then, and then later my, my ex-girlfriend, right.
Or, or like, I'm in like Japan showing up to this random conference where it's only Japanese dudes and then people who work at ASML. Um, and it's like, this will never happen again. Right? Like you don't have that first experience again like that. Um, and so I think that, that is, there is, there is a, a.
higher clarity to forecast the difference in the world. But at the same time, I think the rate of change of the world itself is, is, is picking up. So it's, it's hard to forecast that even. But definitely never expected myself to be like selling data to every major, you know, hyperscaler, AI lab, private equity firm, semiconductor company, right?
Like everyone buys the data and it's like. You just said you had sat down with Jensen, right? For a bit. yeah yeah i i i can't talk about what we discussed but like of course like I had a, it was scheduled for 15 minutes, right? For an hour.
And then it went for an hour. And I was like. You get a call from Jensen.
No, no. I mean, like there was a, like someone on his team, like, you know, that I, that I know, like, and I've talked to other people in the firm for long discussions, like the CFO or, or another person who's like really high up and reports directly to him, like talk to these people. But then like, it was like talking to him, him knowing my work, him having like, I've seen his viewership stats.
I've seen him like, you know, you know, all these sorts of things about him, but like then seeing the man. yeah and him knowing the work and and like knowing exactly what we do and then asking quite it was like it was an incredible experience to like be like oh my god or like andy betchelstein when i when i the first two times i ran into him he had no clue but then the third time i ran into him he one recognized that he saw me like always at these conferences like pouncing around but then he also was like yeah i've read a lot of your stuff i like it um and he's like replied to emails and like you know like newsletter blasts or even like the content that we sell his company Um, and been like, I think this is not right for, and then like two paragraphs or five paragraphs of like, why am I wrong? And it's like, that's amazing. It's, it's, it's, it's surreal to see like billionaires, like actually care what you have to say or rather what you like have figured out.
How much is the readership now? Um, so the newsletter itself is like 200,000 paid newsletter is like, uh, I think like 200,000 people, like the paid newsletter is like 5,000. Um, but then like the main bit, like that's less than 5% of it. Like this is the top of funnel.
but it's like less than 5% of revenue, right? It's like actually all the data sales and there's like 100, 150 companies there and then consulting is like 10, 15 companies at a time that will have like something consulting with us. That's the main thing.
And that's like, these memos will get distributed through the whole company. So like there are a lot of people who don't even like use the newsletter at all. They just use our data, right?
And they know that or the reports there, like, you know, and then there's other data products. Like there's a specific product for just BuySide, right? um, their specific product for companies is like all these different stratification of products. You know, you got to skew stuff to make a lot of money, which is like the, the like evil of the world.
Um, I think viewership is like very broad. And then, and then there's the broader circuit of like, you know, you go on a podcast, right? And then there's like 2 million people have seen your face cause you weren't on Lex Friedman.
Right. And it's like, they don't know anything about you besides that podcast. Um, so I think it's, uh, I don't know what viewership is or, or will be, but, uh, I mean, you guys, viewership is going to kill it because this is the most interesting podcast not this one But the one with like Ivan or like, you know, other ones, it's like so interesting.
I don't know what viewership is, but I think influences is very large. Yeah. So you ever get imposter syndrome still?
Absolutely. Absolutely. But like, I mean, like, look, you're, you're, you're there. Like when I started posting even non-anonymously right in 2020 blogs, I was like, I was like, oh yeah, here's exactly how the supply chain works in this without.
ever having like interacted with the companies on an official basis, ever stepped foot in a factory for ever like, you know, it's like, you know, you just like, you read earnings and like red papers and like, you know, you posted this, right. Or you've talked to a couple of people about it as well. And then like you posted this, right. Um, so imposter syndrome happens all the time, right.
It was like, you know, you, you, you push things out into the world and then, you know, you'll, you'll, you'll learn more, right. You got to do it to learn. Um, you have to fail to learn. um so so imposter syndrome still happens right it's like why do you care about my opinion like you're new yeah it's like wait actually you care about my opinion wait wait i actually have something important to tell you like why am i telling you this you're the freaking ceo of a company yeah that's worth so much you should know this right and it's like no no i have the right advice for you because i i have a different viewpoint advantage right i think i think imposter syndrome is real but also like you know whatever which companies do you think will do best in the next five years oh god Not financial advice.
I think many of the major AI labs will, right? Anthropic, OpenAI, XAI, you know, thinking machines, et cetera, right? I think these folks will do fantastic. I think that, like, Metal will do great.
I'm actually, like, somewhat... I mean, I think Microsoft will do great, too. It's just bearish, generally, on their, like, their fear of investment right now.
Yeah. you know, or overinvestment fears. I think that like company, you know, and Meta has an extreme capacity for the end customer. I think...
I think that companies... So one of the things that is hard to understand for most people is that, yes, AI revenue is X, but most of the AI value that's been generated does not accrue to the companies building the AI or deploying it. It actually accrues to the user.
And this applies to most technological innovations. And so when people think about who's going to do the best, it's actually places and companies and firms where... you're going to take the most advantage of AI and robotics and the supply chains that are built on semiconductors and hardware from there, then actually the company is building them.
Now, obviously, companies that build them are going to be great, like Field or like whatever, right? You know, like robotics companies, right? These are also going to be fantastic businesses, but not all of the value accrues there. So I think there's a longer tail.
I'm actually bullish Corweave, which is, I know, like a sin to say, but like I like... I think you look at the business. I think there's a lot of different companies to be like bullish on because, you know, yes, macroeconomic people are worried about things, but we're building faster and technological progress is faster than it's ever been. So quite positive on on generally tech innovating. Right.
I think I think one area where I'm like very bearish, though, is SaaS businesses. If you look at the market dynamics of China in software, SaaS businesses aren't that. big in China. That's because in general, they just have so many more STEM engineering coding graduates. The average population of it is somewhat younger for these roles.
They have a much lower cost of development between both the wage gap and then general, just like the average programmer being higher skilled. I don't know why that is, but that is the case. I think it's like empirical almost. Not best versus best, but average versus average.
And so SaaS businesses don't exist much. Most companies just roll their own stack. And with... the dramatic reduction in cost of software engineering combined with the weakness in the market for software generally, I think a lot of SaaS businesses will be hurt dramatically when companies can do a purpose build for much less cost than a SaaS would cost, especially as more of the cost of software goes from R&D to COGS, right? As AI and very compute-intensive things.
start to drive the demand rather than you know uh you know you look at the standard sas business there's like an r&d component there's a huge sgna right sales sales sort of component for customer acquisition and then its margin as it scales that margin balloons whereas like on an ai powered software it's maybe more like your r&d is yes what it is but if you're using external model it's actually quite small your cogs is huge because you're constantly calling this very compute intensive stuff but then your customer acquisition cost as a as also is like uh that that may have to be the same but that flip of cogs base versus r&d means the growth doesn't drive as much profits i think this is also like something to keep in mind when thinking about like the future of these businesses what are you personally interested in as of right now i know you said you were doing glass blowing for a while you were beekeeping for a couple years but you know i've just moved i've been like making a community of friends yeah um starting to like post things. I really, I've not had a community like this. in a while right i've been homeless for four years um and then before that i was in freaking minnesota right so i've not i haven't so like the last time i've had like close-knit friends that i was with every day or all the time or not every day but like could see all the time large numbers of people that i could interact with socially um you know like sort of like that that was like college right um so it's been a long time since that's happened right um you know when i was 21 basically i'm 28 now right so like that whole like community building bringing people together making all these different friend groups. Oh, like this person should meet this person. They'd hit it off and they do like engineering those situations I think is really fun.
Um, but generally like partaking in different interests with those people, whether it, whether it do be, you know, hiking or, you know, randomly going to various museums or getting part of a book club or, you know, um, some sort of debate thing or whatever it is, right. There's all sorts of things always happening. And I guess I haven't had the time to really lock in on individual things.
over the last few months on an on a hobby level but i've been partaking and tasting in many different sort of things like especially culinary food uh cooking classes this sort of stuff as well has been fun yeah do you cook often now i i go through spurts right um because like when i've traveled i've always enjoyed taking cooking classes in countries um cooking cooking for yourself sucks though because like you just have too much yeah so like yeah that that there is like that element so cooking for multiple people like that kind of stuff is fun uh but yeah yeah sometimes What's been the most fun of any activity? I would say my favorite day in San Francisco in the last three months since I've been here or four months, three months. Yeah. Is, um, Showed up at Dolores Park. Friend was there, hung out with them.
Went to Alamo Square, through Hayes and all that, to Alamo Square, where some other friends were. Some people split off. Some people didn't.
We went down the street to, like, a coffee shop. And then we went to, like, have lunch. Then we went to another park, Lafayette Park. Then we went to Presidio. And we went to, like, the, you know, we just walked the whole day.
Yeah. Got to the beach, came back, you know, whatever. And it was just, like, there was no actual activity. Right? It was just walking around, chatting.
different people coming and going different people's friends entering and other people splitting off um and actually no one person i started with and ended with but the same it was just like this like amorphous blob uh like blob theory that like you know just kept kept going um and i think that was like probably my favorite day in san francisco epitomizes you the spontaneity yeah yeah um the the serendipity of it all was just like magical yeah um and i think that's been the most fun thing is And the friend groups are so different, right? Like people talk about the monoculture, but like actually there's a, if you can make a lot of different friend groups and they have different interests and stuff, they, you know, that, that's really cool. Like to be able to then bounce between different, different types of things in the same day.
Who are some of these friends or maybe don't name them, but what do they do? You know, I mentioned they're all, they do different stuff, but wait, shit, everyone does the same shit. They're AI, semiconductor. vc um there's a couple artists right um so maybe they all do do the same thing but i think they're like like where they come from there's like people who have grown up in other countries there's people who've grown up all over america there's people who've had different experiences different interests different you know um ratings on sort of like you know extroversion introversion and like intuitiveness feelings like all these different things like what are their interests philosophically reading lies.
sports hobbies you know some people like f1 for some reason and some people like like reading books about philosophy and some people like hiking right and it's like these are not all the same people some people like art and like you can cross into all these but like it's just different people what's something you wish people knew about you that they don't um so so i think i think like there comes a territory of like being somewhat of an authority figure on certain topics yeah that people then automatically assume everything in your life is like very uh um planned out in some way um but in reality like everyone is i'm winging it right like yeah like prepared for a lot of things but like especially in like social context or like um you know meeting random people they'll be like oh you're this person you know all these things nice to meet you blah blah blah and then you like meet them and you talk about stuff um and then you see them again and like whatever right but like it's like i think a lot of people believe that other people are not just winging it but everyone is just winging it and i think that's something that i wish like everyone kind of recognized about each other uh there's an intentionality here but there's also the aspect of like you know throw your stuff out yeah you know that's that's one of the main focuses of this podcast how do you humanize people like yourself or others who people look at it like damn this guy dylan has everything figured out but you do with some intentionality but on the other hand you are also very much exploring life and i think most people are until they die for the most part i think usually exploring life and you know really having a time winging it a little bit i i don't know like i think a lot of people maybe not at this stage of age in our 20s but like later do start to like set into the same pattern and rhythm and do just that um so i think that's and that's definitely just something that generally happens over time um but i agree right like yeah that's a that's a very uh morbid thing right and we're just figuring out until we die yeah what do you think is your most unique story. that maybe only you can tell? I think it's the story of the beauty of this man, Jerome Smiley, right?
Like truly a positive force on my life and my family's life, like hugely, like the sheriff of our town, who was my dad's best friend. You know, it takes understanding the demographics and like context of the city that I grew up in, right? If you look at a plot of America across many, many dimensions, right? but One of them just being corn yield per hectare.
This correlates extremely strongly with African-American population in rural areas. Right. So if you ignore urban centers like Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta, et cetera, it correlates extremely strongly.
And so my town has like extremely high fertility of land because it used to be a swamp, basically. And so like you've got this like weird racial dynamic, which is like, obviously, why did that? Because people settled randomly.
And that's like how slaves were brought to America, like kind of crazy. But like there's all this baggage of that historically coupled with like somehow, you know. our family coming in um and integrating into the society somewhat um and then like i think the first time like my dad told me the first time them those two like really talked and argued was like him telling like jerome telling my dad like he can't do these things because it's against the law right not like against the law but just like hey this is like not how it works like you shouldn't do that um and and then like that becoming the story of him coming to our house every day to have t oh wow right like ja ja right like every day um and my grandmother brewing it for him my grandmother doesn't speak english yeah and he doesn't speak gujarati it's like like i'm sitting here mediating the two because my mom and dad are working he just wants a cup of tea yeah right like and mediating that like conversation um and then you know him like inviting us to his family thanksgiving right and his like taking us to fish and him like actually slapping me once because i was like fucking around with like the the fish and a knife and i was like cutting it like you know whatever and he's like you know and like we're in rural georgia we've got immigrant parrots you've got a you got old school you know man it was like you know it just happened right like you know something me too right and it's like no swiffer no no swiffer just a slap but man's man's like six foot like that's like pretty big yeah like my dad's like my height like my 10 5 11 right like and it's like very different um you know that Yeah. The bustle force here. Um, but, but.
him like like driving that you know at his funeral um my father like like went to speak you know during like the eulogy and such and he was like you know he's he's one of the you know because Gujarati people are known to be cheap yeah like very cheap and like Mr. Smiley was like always um about doing it right rather than cheap because he also did carpentry and like things like that he's always about doing it right so my dad talked about that a lot um and then when we um we took him to india with us once oh wow um and not just to like major cities but to like our argam which is like our rural village um villages right like you know my mom's my dad's various other family members or or you know places around um and oftentimes like you know my mom's running around like buying clothes whatever my dad just wants to chill and it's like i'm taking him around or to going around to all these places and people just run up there First of all, in India, there are no men that are 6'5", in that part of India, at least. You know, like, you know, malnutrition does exist. So, like, I think, like, it tops out at, like, 6'0", right? Like, you know, there's a 6'5 black guy, right, who's, like, pretty big. And, like, people's running up and, like, wanting to take photos and him wanting to, like, give money to them because he wants to do things right. Yeah. Right, he wants to make sure, and you've never seen this level of poverty if you've not lived in America, right?
And so, like, having to, like, explain to him that you have to just not give all these people money because then you'll just continue to get swarmed there's better ways to do it um you know donate food and etc right or like setting up education and like donating to schools um but like taking him around and like seeing what is a very principled man a god-fearing man you know a true christian right like who's taught so many things and morals and then and then flipping the script on him and and going back and teaching him like what's how does it run elsewhere how does the world work differently um how like america is not the only like system and rural american system is not the only system right i think that was like a very um interesting thing to show um him and uh you know i i like it's hard to understate how important he was for for the family and myself did he share any wisdom with you? Yeah, many things, right? Like he taught me all those things I mentioned earlier, right?
Like some of the, some of the redneck life stuff, but also like just generally like doing things right. Um, you know, I think a lot of like Christian morals, Judeo Christian morals, which are like, um, interesting, right? Like, you know, like, uh, you know, 10 commandments, you love that kind of shit. Right. It was like, you know, it was like very interesting to like impart that sort of wisdom, but also the, like, you know, I think the culture of like, um, the Southern Baptist.
African-American culture is also there in the morals and wisdoms of that, which is also very interesting for that to be imparted upon. Because that's one that isn't too prevalent today anymore, especially. Just generally, Christian and Baptist values are not there, or decline.
So it's interesting to have those imparted upon. What does the book about your life, what would the title be? Solace and Serendipity.
Why? I just spent a lot of time by myself, at least to figure myself out. What did you learn during those years?
Yeah, what were you figuring out? You know, you have to be content with yourself, and you can try and find happiness externally, but you can't find external happiness until you're happy with yourself. It's really just like understanding how you work, how you tick. And it's not about like, I also think it's like very bad to like meditate too much and like not very bad, but like to like just internally focus too much because then like you end up in like circular traps. So I don't I don't mean to say that.
But like, I think it's just like learning how I work, what I'm good at, how to leverage that, how to not overstep where or go overzealous on areas, because that's also an aspect where I've made many mistakes where I've just been overzealous. And I've done too much, said too much without like, you know, truly thinking through the consequences and actions and the downstream effects, whether it be on like family, friends, relationships, et cetera, business, et cetera. Right. Like, you know, just moving too fast. I think like learning about myself and it's a continual journey.
I haven't figured myself out fully. Right. But I think that's been a truly. And it's not even like that you learn so much about yourself when you're in solace. It's about like sometimes it's just about like taking a dopamine diet.
Right. Like like in this day and age, you just like are on the Internet and you're like constant dopamine drip feed. Right. You know, and so being able to dopamine diet, understand how you react, how to do it. And then coming back, thinking through like how to enable the creative thinking, because that is a path that's like really good.
I think I'm quite creative thinker. in some ways, um, how to enable different parts of yourself. Like, I think that's, I think the, the solace is like sort of about that. And then, um, the serendipity is just like, you know, letting, letting things happen and doing things and, and, and pivoting quickly.
Are you happy now? Yeah, I think I'm very happy. Nice.
Were you not at the time? Like when you went on this trip, how would you? Oh, definitely not. No, definitely not. Um, well, it was like, had no meaning in life, right?
Like what is this job that I prescribed so much value to? Um, there's like solitary confinement and not confinement, but like sort of COVID right. It was solitary confinement. It's not the best. Um, you, you need, you need, uh, didn't have so many, like, you know, like there's friends and family, but you can't see them too much or you can, there's arguing with your brother and like not really feeling belonging in the world anywhere.
So all of these things were like lacking at the time. Um, and now I feel like I have all of these things. Um, and it can only get better. Right.
So I think that's the, and like, it didn't look like there was a path for me to get. somewhere where I was doing something I loved or surrounded by people I loved um learning and like spreading knowledge and helping people and all these other things do you have any revelations on this trip or does it all just serendipity to got to where you are I think um there is there is that moment where I call it a strike of creative brilliance but also like a strike of like realization where you just realize something about the world um oftentimes it's like stupid or like it's stupid stuff like, well, I just realized how. this part of the supply chain works.
Like, even though you've read all about it, it's like, this is how it fits in this, why it works this way. This is why the technology works this way. This is why X, Y, Z company from a cultural perspective beats this company or vice versa, or what have you. Like it is a lot of like, like just realizations, but often it could also be about like, obviously the personal life. Right.
Um, it's like, Oh, you know, I really should, you know, this person was there for me at that time. And like, let me go back to talking to them frequently. Yeah. Right. Because they're, they're so important to me. have lost touch with them.
Right. Um, or like, you know, family related or what have you. Right.
So I think those sorts of things are, are really important. It's not, you know, you know, you lose contact with people all the time or, you know, you don't always like work perfectly with your family or what have you. So there's, there's always like revisits, but I think that, um, the realization was like, when this happens, like embrace it fully, um, and, and, and move forward with whatever, you know, that creative epiphany was that, that realization and act on it.
right then. Don't like push it off because then the energy and feeling like fades away and you don't have the ability to act as strongly as you did at the moment it happens. Just to close, if you could give one or two sentences of wisdom or maybe your past decade learning and going through the ups and downs, what would you tell the world?
I would say seek knowledge, not for any end goal or build things, not for any end goal, but for the pursuit of doing it itself. I think that's the most important thing that I've learned. And it's still to this day, I get obsessed with something because I want to do that and I want to learn about it. I want to know. And then like the business or making money off of it or, you know, fulfillment out of it can come afterwards.
It's fine. But enjoy the moment of actually doing it.