Transcript for:
Tour de France Performance & Training Insights

Welcome to episode 136 of the Nero show. In today's episode, is the what's per kilo tatipag is doing in the tour to France possible? Naturally, we chat through some of the opinions. The tour to France hill climb time trial brought out heaps of interesting layups and bikes. We chat through them. Of course, we've got dog or fast bike and then how does stopping multiple times on a ride impact the training process? We chat through it all. All right, let's get into it. All right, is Ted a Paga doping? No. What? Whoa, whoa, whoa. We just Well, I mean, this is Take me out to dinner first. This is this is the play at the moment. Everyone just everyone just puts the puts the freaking thumbnail up, but doesn't actually address the question, you know, dances around it, Jimmy. But, uh, come on. Is he doping? Let's Let's Let's talk about it. Let's What do we think? What do we actually think? I don't know. Don't know. What do we know? Want to talk about it? What do we know? Can can I give you a rundown now before we get into the the doping chat? We just want to know um how strong is he this year? That's probably the first question to ask because you remember last year the big um the big effort the fastest best ever climbing performance in road cycling ever from a physiological point of view was hit by Ted Pagatcha in 2024 up the plateau Dubai which was the 6.98 watts per Edelon watts per kilo for 40 minutes and that was at the end of a hard stage, 200 km with 5,000 m of climbing, also in the heat and after having done a hard stage before. Um, and so again, just keep that number in mind, 6.98 watts per kilo for 40 minutes. And just to put that performance in perspective, there's this chart here that the um the two guys at what's at at uh Lantern Rouge who it uh it is Gabrielle and Carlos um who Lantern Rouge employ for their to do their uh articles what peculiar calculations for the Lantern Rouge website and they kind of keep track of all these performances. So there's this from last year, this chart here, greatest performances of all time in road races where they've basically pulled out all the best what's killer performances for a range of durations and plotted them all. And so you get this pink trend line which is the top 40 best um performances of all time and you get this sort of trend and then you can see which ones sit above that which are just like stratospheric level. The reason why that effort last year was was such a standout is if you look at basically which dot on this graph is furthest away from the trend line indicates that for that duration that was the most that's a standout performance and it's that red dot at about the 40 minute mark and if you scroll up and hover on it that's it platter to buy tape pagatcha 2024 6.98 for 39 minutes and 50 seconds. Um, if you want to know sort of what was around that at a similar level, if you move over to the left a bit at the 35 minute duration, you've got Banna Ree AutoAM 6.97 for 34 minutes 41 seconds. So almost the same power but for 5 minutes less. Um, and then if we come down from there around this next group of dots, you've got also on platter to buy in 2024 6.85 85 for 40 minutes 58 seconds. That's Yonas Finger Guard. So that was on the same stage. And then there's three little dots uh also clustered around which is two of them are Marco Pantani AbduZ and another climb there. 6.88 6.88 watts per kilo for 36 minutes. So that's why that performance last year. Fantat was ranked as the greatest ever climbing performance cuz that's just the the strongest watts per kilo anyone's ever done for any duration, you know, furthest away from from what what we know. And that's why that raised eyebrows last year because when you're doing more watts per kilo than known dopers, obviously people are going to be suspicious of that and kind of wondering how how you're doing that naturally. It's pretty reasonable suspicion. The question is, well, what level is he at so far in the 2025 tour to France? None of the mountain stages have been that hard. If you look, if you follow the Lantern Rouge guys, none of them, none of the articles have really had any crazy watts per kilo performances in the road stages at least. So, there's been nothing too wild there. There was one stage so far this year that did have some w per kilo outputs that are in that sort of best of all time territory, and that was the mountain TT. So unfortunately the Lantern Rouge guys I couldn't find their watts per kilo calculation for the TT stage. I don't know maybe they didn't do it. So we don't have that consistency but um this calculation here which is from a a guy on cycling called what's in cycling is pretty well known. He's been doing it for a long time. He's got Tip Gatcher 17 minutes 25 seconds in the TT just over 2,000 m VAM and it's the estimated is there 7.48 48 watts per kilo for 17 minutes 25. And so if we just did Did you say 7.48? 7.48, right? 7.48. And so if we go back onto that graph, which was greatest performances of all time for 2024, and we kind of go 17 minutes, what's around there that's also stratospheric? Well, we've got a Marco Pantani, which is one of the the other ones that are really like the next best one that's furthest off the curve, which is Flu Flume Serberg 1995, 7.34 watts per kilo, 23 minutes 30 seconds. And so we've got Ted Pagatcha at 7.48 for 1725. About the same distance off the curve roughly. So a kind of obviously they're different durations but an equivalent distance away from that top 40 trend line which would put this basically in line with those previous kind of eyebrow raising what's per kilo performances um that I just just mentioned. That's the only one from the tour this year. I don't know if we will see any more this year given the gap that tad already has on GC. He may not need to go to the same level again. So we might not even see a what per kilo performance. But yeah, in to answer the question in short, what level is Ted on this year? Still in that the world's fittest climate ever territory. I saw a real come up the other day which is getting a lot of views and it's kind of the pushing back on the oh Ted's doping chat because you see that a lot like there's like and they're mostly they're not legitimate really takes mo a lot of them are just trolls on any photo you see of Ted oh doper doper like I think they're mostly trolls but I just wanted to play this reel which is is going kind of viral um from um from Aiden and the domestique podcast another Aussie podcast sort of giving the counterpoint to sort of the doping chat and I want to play it cuz it brings up a few interesting points. I'm a bit sick of this speculation about Tad Picachard doping in the face of zero evidence and no one in the Pelaton that seems to not like the guy. And if people knew he was on the gear, I think there would be at this point whispers in the same way that he who shall not be named had plenty of whispers going around about him. It's, you know, there is not a sniff from within the Pelaton that I can see that gives any credence to these rumors at all. And it is a bit frustrating that we are trying to move on from a situation. Yeah. If there was evidence outside of the numbers, but the numbers as have been explained so many times, you were comparing a doping era. They're talking about TAD's times being better than any other period in cycling history. those times that you're comparing to the bikes were [ __ ] Yeah. And the brakes were [ __ ] and the training was [ __ ] and the nutrition was [ __ ] I just want to go through that reel. Um nothing personal against the guys. I just think it was it was an interesting a lot of people agreed in the comments with that and I think I I actually disagree with a lot of what was said there. I I want to go through. So the first one is that sort of the idea that in the face of zero evidence that he's doping, you know, we it's not fair to make these speculations. Um well, if there was evidence firstly, you know, he'd be banned from the tour, you know, he'd be convicted of doping. So of course there's no evidence because he hasn't been tested positive yet. So there is no hard evidence. But I wouldn't even I don't even think it's fair to say that there's no even murky evidence or um there's there's no smoke essentially. I think there is smoke. I mean you're UAE team emirates the team principal and CEO Geiani he he is he ran doping teams. I mean go have you even googled his name? Google Maro Geianetti and go and look him up. I mean he is just known as a prolific team manager for known doping teams. He had like six riders go pause over five or six year period until the team couldn't get sponsors and ended. So he I mean isn't that okay that's not evidence obviously that's not evidence Tipaca's doping but that's at least a bit of a there's a bit of a smell there. There's a bit of a fishy odor. I mean not that it's that's also not unique to to UAE. I mean, go to the tour to France Startland. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting an ex doper. They're in every team in all kinds of positions. It's just where the sport is cuz they're the guys that have not just a doping expertise. They have expertise in how to run teams and manage riders and all that kind of stuff. So, that's just what our sport is for the time being. And it's probably going to be another, you know, those those guys that have been around from the early 2000s, they've probably got another what, 10 years, maybe 15 years before they retire. And so probably by 20 35 2040 you will you will have the majority of teams that have a totally clean roster of staff that have no imp even close implications in doping but for the time being they're there and they they smell and that's just the reality of it and so they're always going to attract some suspicion. Um, the next point was that no one in the Pelaton seems to like no one in the Pelaton seems to dislike him. And if people knew he was on the gear, I think there would be whispers. If there were, if there are whispers, there'll be whispers between the riders on another competing team's bus. They're not going to be whispering to some random. Like, they're not going to go to the media and start whispering Teddy's doping. Like, that's that's just not going to happen. And so again, that's not really a reason that um that's not that's I think just that's nonsense. And the whole thing about the Lance era, I mean, wasn't that the whole point unless I'm I mean, you've been around cycling longer than I have. Wasn't the whole point of the Lance era was the murmur? Isn't that the word? The word for it's fight club. You keep it in your bubble. You don't whisper it. I mean, that was the whole Wasn't that the whole thing about the Lance era was that no one spoke of it? And this is this is almost like the modernday version of that in the sense that he's become so likable and so everyone wants to be mates with Ted that it's it's like the the the the anti lance the reactionary type sort of way of of doing things. But yes, it's it's the same style of thing. It it is it is hard to imagine Tape Pagach's doping. I don't believe. You look at him, you watch him, you go, I I can't I can't see him sitting there getting something injected or breathing something or it's really hard to believe because he's and that's I mean I agree, but that's not that's just some figment of all of our imaginations. It doesn't it doesn't put any weight whether he's doping or not. So just cuz there's no whispers and cuz he's a really nice guy, you kind of just have to let that go as as any kind of weight of evidence. So I don't I don't really know what why that's a point. Um and then saying the numbers aren't evidence because of the bikes which makes the climbing times faster. You can't compare between eras. I mean we're comparing the watts per kilo and the guys that are doing it are taking into account the equipment. So yeah the like the pelatons riding around all the stages at 50k an hour. They're going that's because of you know the equipment and the the level of the riders. So I don't think it's we're not comparing just climb times. I mean, we're comparing the estimated what's per kilo that take into account the equipment, um, the training and the nutrition and the medical side of things from a non-doping point of view have also obviously picked up. But I think it to kind of straw man anyone suspicious of Pagatcha by saying, well, you can't just say he's faster because he's climbing because he's climbing times of faster. No, no, we're talking about what's per kilo. They have taken that into account. So that was also not a great point. That was a basically everything he said I just straight up I kind of disagree with. And I think in in that video there were some interesting comments from Nick Owen. Nick Owen is Luke Plap's coach. I think he he added Yeah, he was bobbing in there. So he added some good information. I wanted to read his comments cuz it um I kind of things I generally kind of agree with. So he uh there was a comment there that said, "The only concern is the power numbers. 7.3 watts per kilo is really higher than science predicts possible without help." That was some random person's comment. And then Nick Owen replied, "Look, it's higher than anyone I've seen. And I think a measured questioning of it is fine. Performance that performances that are beyond what we've seen should be questioned. But also, there's no proof whatsoever that he's doping. I haven't heard even a whisper, and I'd say I would have. sometimes you've got to reset what's normal. It's happened in every sport. He's not so far ahead of say plap power-wise that it's not possible. Um and then he left another comment. Some of the issues are the ridiculous modeling that gets thrown around, which I think is deliberately misleading. It's quite easy to model the power for the uphill TT. If you assume Poggy is 65 kilos and his bike was 6.8, 8 than he did low 470s for 18 minutes for the climb, which is crazy and quite a bit more than Luke did, but not evidence of doping. And I think that was, you know, that's an interesting comment. Now, I'm going to read my interpretation of his comment was not in the spirit of what he left it, but it it is kind of interesting in that he's kind of saying I think Nick there is kind of alluding to a gripe I have, which is you said, "Oh, do you think Tadada catches doping?" I'm like I don't really want to answer that cuz it's comes across very personal and you know that that that's so it just I don't know. But if you said is doing 7 you know on the low end 7.3 from other modeling 7.45 watts per kilo for nearly 20 minutes possible naturally. I like that question. And that's when you start to go, well, that's up there with the only other people that have done that were on full cocktail pharmaceutical doping protocols. Has the training, nutrition, all of the sports science improved enough at a rate over the last 20, 25 years to account for that. And even the guy that coaches Luke Plap, who worked for for Cycling Australia, is more in the sort of field testing, the lab testing than I am. Even he's going, "Well, we I haven't really seen numbers like that before." And so, I think questioning it is fine. I mean, I would agree. I mean, he it'd be on a few WhatsApp groups that would be passing numbers around. I mean, and he's not going to get Instagram comments and and sort of go, you know, go rogue. But if you read what he's saying there even he's going look there's no clearly there's no evidence he's doping but we don't know and that's the other side of things is there's also not really no one's actually really laid out how Ted is doing these numbers naturally which might sound what like what do you mean how can you prove he's natural I don't necessarily mean that but I haven't really and this is something I you might say oh Jesse you're a coach why don't you do that this is well beyond this is a very specific specific area that I don't have expertise in. I don't I don't see hundreds of world tour level cyclists in the lab, but I haven't really heard, you know, a San Milan or someone in their camp sit down and sort of lay out this is how he's doing this. This is what the this is this is what his V2 max is and this is this is the percent of his V2 max we know he can hold for these durations and this is what he was doing when he was 16 years old. and like kind of laying out a an explanation for how he's able to do what's peculiar that only other dopers have been able to do. So there's no evidence he's doping there. All I also haven't really seen a case that is convincingly saying that what he's possible is doing naturally. And so we're all of us are in this all of us that are at least somewhat switched on are in this kind of uncomfortable situation where we're looking at these graphs going I don't feel great about someone doing 7 you know seven watts per kilo at the end of a stage at altitude in the heat for 40 minutes 6.98 like uh it makes me a bit uncomfortable and I think that's a that's a totally valid uh opinion to have because it's really difficult. I think this is where the real I mean I I reckon that's probably the majority of thinking what Aiden's saying there is what what he's saying. Now there's no but the hardest part of this and I I am having to do this myself is you almost have to remove Pogachar the personality from from this and remove everything else you're seeing and and and really just come back to that question that you're asking which is are we comfortable with this with this what's kilo being the new normal just remove the fact that oh it's t great bike nice sunn he's loves riding his bike remove that and just and really assess that that is the new phys physiological normal. It's still not the new normal though cuz there's only two riders that are three. You've got that's what I'm saying that. Yeah. Right. Okay. Sorry. You know, and then there's this the followup sort of argument that I've heard that I heard from who was it the cade Jimmy. Yeah. which was oh well he's the first of the generation of people who were professionals from day dot you know so came through all all these sort of you know development programs so his level is going to be the new normal that still doesn't sit with me in terms of the actual physiological the amount of oxygen moving around the body right now is a challenge clearly I I And clearly the base level has gone up because the old the old on these graphs I can't remember the old sort of Chris Froom I mean there's so many riders now that would beat Chris Froom that I probably aren't that I don't think are doping I'm pretty confident aren't doping. So clearly the level has gone up like the there's some really good numbers from like a Lander from a Almeida even Remco is well well into this sort of top 40 territory above for some of the for some of his efforts. Um but the unfortunate thing is I mean Yonas and and Yonas is a really significant level above that and then Tad is another level above that and so you've almost got you've got the entire Pelaton pretty tightly grouped and then seemingly two riders that are pretty well above that and that's also a bit um interesting and not too like just on that comment about um from from Luke Plap's coach being like, you know, numbers wise, Pley isn't, you know, the Watsburg killer. Pley isn't that far away from Ted. I mean, I don't know what numbers he was looking at, but the time trial was 23 minutes long, and Ted put 2 minutes into him. I mean, that's pretty that's a pretty big gap. I mean, that's not that's not like 5 10 watts at the same weight. That's like that's huge. That's a huge gap. I mean, how is Platt going to come? Well, how would Pl even considerably close? Maybe he wouldn't. Maybe he's just not that level of talent, which is totally fair, but to say that Plap is Pl's raw per kilo is kind of not that far from TADA, I think, is I mean, I wouldn't necessarily agree. I mean, that's a gigantic gap. Um, just just wanted to float that. Can we talk about Platt for a bit actually about him? Um, did you have anything else to add on the the the what's doping or not? I don't really think I want you to. It's a pointless opinion, isn't it? It is. Do you I mean, do you All I want to say is this. No. Can I Can I just say this? I don't think the status quo is good enough. And by that I mean we've all been This happens to all of us as I mean I'm at the dog park last week. First question from the the the guy who's watching the tour doesn't not really a cyclist. Oh, is he is he doping or not? It's funny cuz it's always those like what do you call them? Like sports fans. That's always the first question, right? And so I I don't think I don't think Aiden's way of looking at it is good enough for the next 5 or 10 years. I think we need we need as much transparency as possible. And I don't know what that looks like, but I need to be able to to stand up and say no. Mhm. Because he's a good bloke. Like that's not good enough for me. I I need No, because like he was doing 7.1 during his training session 3 weeks beforehand and so you know the reality of him now stepping that up to 7.2 is not off the face of the earth. So yeah, now he's clean. Like I I need to be able to say that not he's just he's a good bloke. Okay. What about this though? Is it bad for the culture? Like I'm I'm thinking maybe even for like young riders for Chris Miller to always be questioning whether the top riders are doping is that is that um once no you know because if you're just swinging odd oh that's probably that's hard to do naturally basically what I just you know that kind of thing is that not is that bad for the sport because you're always swinging and then they go oh is that what and do I need it is that or is that just reality? Look the slop doping chat the oh yeah they're all doping. Oh, they're all on it. All this no evidence. Just you see it in all the I mean, this is not really in my bubble. Maybe this is why Aiden's talking about it cuz it's in his bubble. I don't see that stuff. But that stuff, yeah, that's toxic. That's bad for young cyclists. That's bad for cycling generally. It's bad for the culture. All that stuff. But there is nothing wrong with once someone crosses a certain threshold that is previously in inhumane areas. There is nothing wrong with questioning that and and questioning it from a physiological standpoint and say prove to us how you're doing this clean. You don't have to I don't need you to prove that you can ride at 6 watts per kilo clean. I need you need to prove you can you are able to ride a six and a half watts per kilo claim. That that is all that is what I want and that's that is where I think we can have an educated discussion. I will say for for any young riders out there, for the majority of the Pelaton, I'm not seeing watts per kilo and physiological performances that raise my suspicions. And that's a good thing. like when when when the breakaway goes away on a medium mountain stage and you've got Healey, Plap, uh Stoa, those that like level of rider, Quinn Simmons, like they're not doing things which are raising red flags for me having kind of kind of seen Jay Vine for example domestically and seeing what what's per kilo numbers he was doing domestically and I'm 99.98% sure he wasn't no one's 100% sure. I'm like I'm almost guarantee he wasn't doping. So, I kind of know that sort of upper level there. And then I'm looking at sort of the plaps and the heelies and like I don't think they're doping. I almost I'm pretty confident they're clean. And so that's a good thing that like you can be a really good pro rider clean. I I 100% stand by that. But there's just a there's a big step between a grand tour to a stage winning rider from a break and a teddy pagera. I mean, you can just see that in the what's per kilo number. And so I think this it's not just yeah we need to be kind of define what we're actually talking about because yeah the Benhaleies of the world aren't doing like unbelievably high things where you're sort of going hold on you're scratching your head you're going yeah kind of I can I can get my head around that. Speaking of Pappy it's been the Pl Show. We should get him on at some point. Anyway, um he's on YouTube. He is Oh, uh girlfriend's on YouTube. So they started doing cuz Pl was a late call up to the tour. I think it was only a few weeks out he he got subbed in and so they did some vlogs of some of his training um in the leadup to the tour. So I think there was two vlogs. I think her name is Vicky. Uh and then they did a vlog from when he was in the hot seat at the um the Mountain TT which was cool video. And there's some little bits in there I want to chat through. His method of pacing the time trials is so I find really bizarre. It's kind of funny cuz he did the same for the first one. Yeah, where he's not interested in doing a PB. He's interested in going fast enough to win, even if he can only do that for 10 minutes out of the 40 minutes. And so he's he does every all of these time trials like I'm going off on the time on the on the power I need to do to get the results I want. Yeah. Regardless of the chance that's possible I'm able possibly able to do that. Yeah. which is clearly not the best way to get your own best result consistently. If you're not first, you're last. But I mean, it seems to have paid off because he basically did that for the mountain time trial. And he was like, I happened to have a good day and so I got a good result and for all my other time trials, it means my pacing was garbage, but if it pays off on one of them and I just cuz you know there's there are those days where just something happens and the what's coming easier and you just go I don't know what happened there, what was in the water last night, but my body just responded really well. And it seemed like he had that on the the um the TT day. So he was going into the time trial. Um, the idea being get through the first bit and then just go for my 20-minute best ever power for the climb and if I'm going fast enough that'll get me close enough to the finish line which I can kind of then just like punt myself across the line. Um, he literally hits lap. That's what I like. He hit lap at the bottom of the climb. It's like an interval. You got to track it. Uh, and so he did say he beat he did a 20-minute PB. I'm going to guess what his power was. So, he said he did his previous PB when he was in he was heavier in the track program and I I can remember seeing in one of the vlogs I think he weighed himself and he was like at the moment he's he looks very he's pretty he's pretty skinny. There's not much there. He's 68 maybe 67 and a half. He's a bit taller than you think as well. Yeah, he's not. Yeah, cuz that's Yeah, that at 68 kilos he's quite skinny. Um, and so I would say 20 minute power for that TT at 68 kilos is probably 460. We'll see. Maybe Nick Owen will comment. Um, if I if I'm close at 68 kilos, so it's sort of 6.8 watts per kilo. I'm maybe it was a smidge even above that. I mean, I know it was hot, so I mean I'm going to be I'm I'm guessing sort of 462. I had to pick to the what at 68 kilos. His previous PB was probably like 455, I'm guessing, for 20 minutes. Um, and then if Poggy did 7.4 watts per kilo, that has him doing 474 watts at 64 kilos. Say that again. For Pogy to do 7.4 watts per kilo, that's 474 watts. At 64 kilos for the climb. Um it just gives a good that's I I want the reason mainly why I was bringing this up is it brings a good idea of the levels like if you're plap you you you are domestically like you just take the piss in Australia. You ride around nationals with one leg and and then you go to the TT you pace it so stupidly just going for a 20-minute PB. You have like the best day you've ever had. You do a 20-minute PB and you're in the hot seat and you're on top of the world and then some guy goes two minutes faster than you. Like it's just cra like when you cuz it's really hard when you look at these numbers. You're like 7.4 watts per k. Like what does that even mean? I have no frame of reference for that. It's just absolutely meaningless. But what it is is think of Pl at Buninong or at Perth last year at nationals or at the tour down under. That's that rider. He's he's gone to the tour. He's done a 20-minute PB and someone puts two minutes into him. Like that's that I think that helps get your head around how good the the the top GC riders are because it's just it is another level. I mean at his weight the other way to put it his weight if he wants to match Pagata I mean he's he needs to do 30 more watts he needs to be doing like 490 to m to match in and that's just in a time trial then I mean it's a whole other ball game if you're then starting to compete on a GC level on the longer stages and so given that Pagach is only two years older than Pl I mean we could ask we could maybe we do get him on at some stage or we could ask him but we're just going to have fun with it right if you're Luke Plap and you've done that TT and you're kind of like now I kind of know what the levels are Right? And you're going, I don't know if I can put 30 watts on. You know, I'm already I'm 22. Pagatcha is 24. Pagatcha is only 24. You're going, I don't know if I got 30 watts in me. Um, you know, does that what do you do? Do you just keep stage hunting? Do you try? Do you just, you know, I wonder, you know, what does that do for what's the mindset there? I mean, not that that's a problem. Like, no one is saying Luke Plap is as talented as Tatagata. Like that's not but that's probably not a realistic expectation. But what how does that play into this question for the rest of the professional pelaton really? Like what are we doing here folks? You you do either what everyone did at the Jurro this year which is do races that TADA is not doing. Or I mean the other the other way which I know you know there's a few guys that are doing is you do you go down the super do domestic role. You get the you get the be UAE payday and slid in slop into into the train somewhere and slide off absolutely destroy the first of the three categorized clims shred the bunch and cruise it in. Mhm. On six figures. Maybe that's maybe that's but yeah I mean what do you think? Do you try and lose 5 kilos? [ __ ] that. That'll be getting difficult. I mean, PP's not 19, 18, you know, now he's 22. I mean, the pelon gets younger. He starts to go. Yeah. You go, "Oh, that's a" And he's already maybe he squeezes off another kilo or two. I don't see him losing, you know, four or five kilos to be down at the weight where you could then go if you lost, you know, if you lost 5 kilos and put on 10 watts, you know, so it's probably, you know, when you when you see a thing like that, you probably start to go, look, I don't see Plat fighting for a podium at the Tour to France, which is not everyone has to podium tour to France. It's it's not it's fine. Yeah, it's just I thought it was it was a really cool I don't actually I don't have an opinion. I don't know what he's going to do. I'm just it's maybe yeah, the super domestic get Pling the bottom of a climb. The problem is that a super that those domestics have to be quite good at positioning. I don't know Pl still and he admits it in the video. He kind of jokes about it in one of the vlogs is like for him the positioning is still a problem. So um but that could be a good a good role. you know, you pick up, you know, if he's if you become a super domestic, would you get a pay a pay bump for doing that given you're giving up your chance of results? That's a good question. Like, let's say Pappy's on half a mill euro a year, Jacob, if he if he goes to UAE and and in a in a nils poll role, does he get does he get more cash for that? I would imagine so though I am told Jacob pay pretty well right at the top end. Okay. So maybe maybe not. Um but yeah obviously yeah that's a good point. Are you are you getting financially remunerated for stashing your personal ambitions for a bit? I mean actually I think he'd be on more than 500k euro. He'd probably close I think the salaries have gone up again. He probably be close like probably 800 900 maybe. Yeah. Um as some but as someone who gets to um seemingly has a bit more freedom to go for his own results again. Yeah. Um but it's like a guy like you know I mean is Quinn Simmons at that level of what's pilo? Different rider type. Different rider type. Yeah. I don't think Quinn Simmons has any any idea that he's going to become like a GC a week long you know stage race GC contender. Right. Today's episode is supported by Silka. Now, before I hand over to you to just have a quick chat about some of the things you're seeing on the website, Jesse, quick anecdote. Okay, Chris anecdote time. So, when I was at the Vizma HQ in Den Bosch, I sniffed around because they are, if you go to their website, you'll see the Vizma Lisa bike little bike radary type sticker up on the the the corner there. And they do use it. They have this uh I didn't get a photo of it. I didn't let you take photos. So the way they run this is new tire, new setup goes out, gets ridden on those Victoria courses. They're checked after every stage or after every race. The the tires are the first time there's a nick, a cut appears in the tire, that tire is removed and a new one's put on, but the tire and the sealant aren't then chucked. What they do is they take the tire off, suck this the sealant out because it's only been in there really, maybe a week or so, and then reuse that sealant again uh on the the reset one and that tire with the cut on. Any guesses where it goes to some local juniors, sort of the dev team, the dev team. So, there was this massive pile of tires in there with like Corsera pros with just little nicks in them and they go on the the dev team bikes. Good. So, there you go. There's an anecdote for you. They do sponsored by Silka and they use Silka. There you go. I want to call out the wax additives. So, if you're using the Silka hotmelt wax, keep in mind that you can use either the speed chip or the endurance strip in there. The speed chip reduces the friction by a little bit. But the main one I like is the endurance chip. If you put one of them per 250 g of wax, it'll extend the longevity up to 550 km. Stick two endurance chips in, increases the longevity up to 750k. And I would say based on what I've been speaking to some people about, that's a pretty conservative kilometer estimate if you're riding in good conditions. So if you do want to grab any or all of the above, Nurosow 15 is your code at checkout for 15% off. That is at silka.cc. And a big thanks to Silka for supporting the Nurero Show. Who knew 113K stage could give us so much content, Jesse? So much milk in this one, baby. You got gear chat. Well, I mean, this this stage should be re renamed the layup for the boys stage cuz I reckon there were some layups occurring on this particular stage. Can we go through some of the uh some of the setups here? Yeah. So, we got Val on CC on Instagram. Got some beautiful, well lit shots from the side. Fantastic. Let's start with Tad A in his Y1. He's on the Y1. Now, if he had a time trial bike that No, that TT the Koga TT bike is quick. It's just not that light. And so, I don't think they're able to get that down like um Yambo do get that that uh the the Seell TT bike. They can strip that weight down. So, I think he's gone I don't think I can swing the TT bike. Even though if they could get it down to a decent weight, it would have been faster cuz the first part of the course he could have done tucked in. So, he's gone the Y1. No paint, just the logos. And you know, the problem is you go no paint, you're definitely in the Are we getting a special layup here? I think they were claiming 6.9 for this. No bar tape. You've got the new Envy's 28 mil TT tires, carbon chain rings, carbon chain rings. Uh you've got the sho I do like the the uh shoe cover, the little shoe covery over the laces. Beautiful. Fantastic. I think they'd be doing a nice little bolt package on that one too to get I don't know how they they've done a good job to get that to 6.9. So, well, this is potentially a conversation for somewhere down the track, but we may need to reconsider the one. Well, we can do it now. Let's do it now. I mean, he's been on this every stage if I'm stand corrected. Y I mean, I haven't seen the I'm really and I'm really happy to see it. I mean, it's just a faster bike. He's riding so fast. Um, okay. It's not quite as comfortable as the other one and it's a little a little bit heavier, but at the speed he's going, it was just a better bike. So, I'm actually glad to see him picking the Y1. Got you. Yeah. Yep. Wellins as well. Rocking it. Yeah. So, I think there's there's an official Nurero show um press release coming. Mhm. Given we did issue a dog sticker. Are we walking back? Well, we're certainly visiting the pound. Okay. And potentially picking it up. Adopt a dog. Maybe take coming back home. Coming back home now setups. Look at this one. Yonas Vingard. I find it. Yeah. Ran the TT bike. Rang the TT. I mean there's custom of all. I mean there's just like clearly a custom seat post. I can see some kind of weave coming through that. I would find it hard to believe that's a stock seat post. Yeah, that's there's there's that's like a $1,200 US saddle. I think I remember seeing um this is the carbon spoked version of these reserve wheels. Correct. Um Okay. I'm glad you confirming cuz sometimes I can't quite tell. That looks like a tune hub. It's the tune hubs. He's got the overfast carbon through axles one by. I mean that's a that's just a better setup than than Tad's on. Yeah. So the the gearing on that is def is the is so this is the road one by just to clarify. We're not doing explorer slop here. That's road one by with a 1036 front chain ring. We don't have an official. It's either the 50 or the 52. He's been riding the 52 on most of the mountain stages on his S5. I think that might be smaller. I think that might be the 50. Mhm. Um don't have it official. No one's no one's done a chain ring count for us as yet. No one wants to do a pixel peep there. But yeah, I agree. I mean that is objectively a better that's a quicker setup. I mean that what would that weigh if you had to guess? Oh, it's a bit like TAD's power numbers. Time trial weights. Time trial bike weights are like I don't they don't compute in my brain. Okay. Like I just can't work them. I mean is it if I say 6.8 is that that's not that's not a thing. No, it won't be a thing. It's like doing 7.8 8 watts per kilo for 20 minutes. Okay, we're well we're well above I 7.3. Okay. Would you would you I'll be I mean they're going to be 1100 g wheels one by. But I just again I don't know and I don't know what the the custom bars are sort of weighing. So I'll have to take that one on notice. Can I also say one thing that we're probably not going to mention much of but like for these time trials it's all in the skin suits. I don't know if you've been following all these skin suit updates. It's like they tried a different patch of fabric here and a different configuration and this different material. 80% of the gains is in the skin suits, which doesn't really interest me, but I'm just It's way more important than anything else. These helmets. So, this is the helmet that we banned next year, right? Yeah. It's done. Please get rid of this. I would love to ride in this once just at Hefron. Just the the proper like just see it coming down the straight. This big thing. Get me get get me on one. What is it? the Jurro Arrowhead or whatever it is. No, that's not the Arrowhead. That's that's the Arrowhead is the one um what's his name uses? Oh, yes. Camp this one. And I want the I want the full Yonas Danish real estate agent branding on there as well. Primos. Now, this is my goat setup, I reckon. All right. I think this is the one. This is the one that took it for me. Mhm. Um Primos just quietly can can ride a one by Primos can ride it. spins it up. Uh, so this is the shiv. He's gone reverse mullet coil style. Y um that So that rear can you So that's going to be a 30. That'll be the Alenist. Yeah, it's a 30. And so the front then will be the looks like the front of just the CLX3. Okay. Uh gearing wise again, he's gone the road one by setup. That's a 1036. I reckon that's an even smaller chain ring. Mhm. I'm going to call it 48. Oh, you you see him spinning that up on some of those 10% 11% gradients. He was running a super high cadence. I reckon he's I reckon he's up there. This I think this could be lighter than the than the Sevel potentially. Mhm. Again, this is kind of out of my comfort zone when it comes to frame weights. It'll be a bigger bike. That's true. Overall, it's true. Okay. Love I I've gone full circle on the Red Bull kit. I think it's sick. Absolutely sick. I'm glad you've come around to that. I tend to agree. Skip uh Lipoitz's. Let's move to We've chatted a lot about I must admit I saw him roll out of the start house on this on the the rear disc and I So what's the thinking here? Oh, so yeah, this is so this is he's gone rear disc now. So So you saw people going for reverse mullet. save save my watts on the front wheel, save weight on the rear wheel. Then you had oh no gain watts on the rear wheel, go shallow on the front to save weight. So the thinking behind this is that if it's really windy, you can get the sailing effect from the disc, which sort of gives you a much higher um drag saving than if you just had a deep front wheel if it's if you have the right wind conditions. If there's no wind, I'm pretty sure the deeper front wheel is faster. Um, I don't know what the wind conditions were like. I'm pretty sure if you've got a access to a brand that does a really light disc wheel. Um, it's probably much of a muchness. And that's what you see in this TT. It's basically like pick where you want to save some speed or weight and it's much of a muchness just because of the the format of the stage. So, he's on Yeah. He ran the Propel with the lightweight through axles, shallower Kadex front, full disc. I personally would have probably run the deeper front cuz you know when you get out of the saddle and you're lugging a disc around, it doesn't feel great. When you want to sort of do that that acceleration out of the saddle, I suggest a front deeper front would have felt nicer. Um, and then obviously Aussie Champ skin suit and no glasses, just having a good old gurn. at 462 W. This is an NRS road bike TT fully. This is like tour of the Sunshine Coast or something spec. Yeah. Uh but again, you I mean there there would be no I mean what the alternative would be maybe your your KEX tri spoke on the front. Yeah. And like a KEX 50 normal rear, but then you maybe you're not going to get that sailing effect that you were sort of chasing. Um did he pro did he leave some time on the table by running that setup? Probably not. I don't think so. Couldn't tell you. Um, can we skip forward to the Norwegian national champ? Yeah. So, this is the opposite setup. So, you go the full I don't even know what that is. That's a Princeton carbon works wake something something 80 mil deep huge boy. And then the tiny rear wheel. That's that's the setup just for the photo. That's the coil setup. It doesn't look like he's really having a a squeeze. He's It looks like he's just tapping it out. So, I don't know what why you bothered optimizing just to tap it out. But maybe he did. Maybe he was one of the earlier ones off and he was testing for Carlos Rodriguez or something. It's Tobias Foss, is it? Yeah. Yeah. No particular take on that. Uh Lenny now Lenny caused a bit of a a bit of a stir. Been shopping at Panda Podium, I think, for he's on the China Center. He's on the China Center. So, Chinese carbon Eli cranks and the Chinese six wheel cassette. You going durace one by looks like it. I can't see a front derailer there. No, I mean that's risky. Shano one by There's no clutch in there. Anyway, didn't fall off. Disc wheel. See, Plap can kind of lug around a disc wheel cuz he's big. Lenny Martinez riding around with a disc. I don't know. I don't know about that. I would not sure on that on the new Marita Reacto looks like a raw carbon finish as well. So maybe a few grams the way the tires is there is there a potential that that's a tubular or is that that No, that's the archetype tire. Oh, that's the archetype. Yeah, archetype front and rear, which means they're 30. Y kind of surprising. You'd probably want to go a 28 bit. Yeah, I'm surprised by that. No, a bit of a I mean alpha rotor. Galas are these galers. They are carbon dog of a rotor. Did you see that blew up on Instagram during the week? Oh, we'll get there. It's coming up. Is it gala dissection? Gala. Anyway, that's the China bike. That's the China bike. Was Lenny having a rip or is he just putting that on for the photo? Do you think? Oh, you can never really tell, can you? Never tell. DSM rider to finish us off. I'm not sure if that's Oscar only, but it's scopes for the boys. Just scopes for the boys. Roll out the scopes. This is a This is an indictment on what a slot bike that is that he's going to he's running. What do you reckon those wheels weigh? Scope. I reckon they must be 20 ms. Yeah, this is back to the full Richie portura AC24 tub spec. That's a 24. That is a 24. And he's still only just getting that to 6.8. Oh no. Like what a dog of a bike that thing is. I do feel sorry for these boys. Um yeah. So there it is. That's There were very few of these like 2016 spec mountain time trial. We're just going to get the big narrow boys on there cuz you have the flat section at the start. I mean, imagine how you're losing a good hand handful of seconds in the in the opening part with these. Uh there's no arrow savings for them. But good to see some scopes out there. Great to see. So um MVDP also ran some scopes, I think, on the time trial. Yeah, he's got the scope front rear setup on the TT bike. How do you reckon those hookups happen? Is it just DMs? Just because obviously these are I've noticed that it's Shimano Wheel teams that seem to be doing the little scopes for the boys every now and again. I'm pretty sure they'd just be buying them. Just buy them. Surely. I mean, at that this level, you're not, you know, DMing people to get a free set. I could hook them up. We can send out send ones. You still just buy them. When am I going to get on those, by the way? I still notice they're still on your bike. They haven't actually made their way over to me just yet, but anyway, we'll see. Don't worry about that. You got plenty of stuff to ride. That's this. That's this. All right. Um, other quick bits. Mhm. Why are we all wearing stupid nose strips? What's What's this? I don't know. Why are we running a pink nose strip now? What? Why? What? Optimizations. What's this doing? Why Why is Is this a Vizmo like mouthpiece guard thing? like an Instagram fad now or and you've got to do the interview with it on I've noticed is the thing. Okay, there's there's three possibilities. Okay, the first one cuz I've been getting Instagram ads for nose strips is that there's a bit of a there's a bit of a sponsorship bit of arrangement going slap that on, do a few interviews and they can sell you expensive tape uh to put over your nose. That's that's probably the first reason. Second reason is there is an energy cost an oxygen cost to breathing. M did you know that when your lungs expand and contract your diaphragm has to do that and so and the diaphragm is a muscle which uses energy and so if you can breathe easier with less resistance and it's less work for your diaphragm to do that saves you an absolute slither of a slither of your oxygen consumption and that's more you can pump to your legs. Is that measurable in any way saved via a strip across your nose? Probably not. But that's the theory at least. That's the second idea. Probably not going to be significant if you examined it. Uh third reason, which is real, is just you. Have you used you've used one before? I'm pretty sure I've given you. You gave it to me. It feels really cool cuz you stick them on and then they have um they are the ones I use are the breathe right ones. You've been able to buy them for decades and it's just a piece of plastic and then it sort of pulls itself outwards which expands your nostrils and it feels like you've when you've got a cold and you do you blow your nose and it get everything comes out. It's that feeling that you get and it feels like you're breathing through a fire hose and it and it just a placebo effect which is totally fine. If it makes you feel stronger and that gets a bit more out of you then that's for something that you just have to stick across your nose is great. I would if I was doing an important race or a time trial I would use one. Yeah. You were you were an early adopter of the nose strip. Yeah. Why not? They're good. Yeah. Just like the the the motivational sticker on the the handlebars, stick a nose strip along with it. I'm all for it. Just don't you I just don't like the black ones where it's like some fashion statement. I think just can we get like clear ones, please? You've been back on Reddit, Jesse C. Reddit question from the crowd. Multiple stops question. Hello, wise cyclist. That's not very nice. I'm an experienced road cyclist. I ride the long days. I race in the occasional crit. a hang in the fast group rides. I have some top tens on Straa yet. For all my years of riding, I don't know how to answer this question. Is it bad for the legs to take multiple breaks, especially longish breaks, during a ride? Here's the background. I do long weekend rides with friends of various degrees of fitness. On Saturday, I got a perfect storm of this. A 90 mile day with 7,000 ft of climbing in Colorado. It wasn't the distance that made it tough. It was the stops. Oh god. Yep. There was the 8 miles to the cafe and the 30 minutes of lingering there. Then in the first 30 m there were three flats up 20 minutes stops and repairs for each one. So you're on an hour there. Then there was a 45minut lunch break at mile 65. And then the hardest 6 mile climb at 8% with spikes of 15 to 18%. It just about killed me despite my fitness. Oh, was the extreme pain in my legs psychological frustration from so many long stops or physical? The way home after the big climb was no better. Some guys bonked hard and we had to stop and wait for them every time the roads. I remember riding with an old pro and he said, "Never stop too long during a ride to keep the legs loose." Was he right? Finally, I've tried communicating to the group that the stops are killing my legs, but they just miss it. Is it just me? If not, what can I say to these guys? Bye-bye. Find a new group. Find a new group. Uh, are you going to give some actual like training answer? Cuz can I can I or Yeah, but you can't avoid these rides. This is like the bread and butter of someone getting into road cycling is they get a road bike and they start to do some rides and they go, "This is kind of boring. I want to ride with other people, so I look for a club or a shop ride." And then I go on those rides and everyone just likes to stop all the time. And so you're either super antisocial and never ride with them or you have to find a way to deal with this problem. Well, let's ask the first question though. The the physiological side of it. Is stopping killing his gains or is it in his head? It is not in your head. When you stop like your the aerobic systems change your hero your your hormones take over. So like if you think about you stop for half an hour at at the cafe uh insulin picks up especially if you eat something you know have a have a little caramel slice or something insulin goes up especially if you're there for for like 30 minutes you get back on the bike it's like you haven't warmed up insulin's high so your body has to go through the whole process of I know stop the insulin release we need more circulating blood sugar to go to the muscles and so yeah you have to basically rewarm up so that insulin is a hormone so when I say hormone changes is that whole process which might take 20 30 minutes again. So what you're feeling isn't in your head. Your body is in a restive state and you're trying to ride again. Your blood also pulls in your legs. When you stop the the way blood circulates is via a pump in the legs. When you stop that whole system shuts down. It's like having to recrank a like a motor engine. And that that that getting that blood pump to get the the Venus return takes time too. Uh you've probably also eaten something. So, your blood's all gone to your gut to digest the food and then you get back on the bike and your legs start to beg for oxygen and then your body's like, "Wait, no, we we were going to digest your caramel slice and now you're doing 500 watts and we're all confused and insulin's high and so that changes things and then your muscle's literally cool and like a lot of the the oxygen transfer that happens in the muscle and all the enzyme activity happens at a higher rate when the muscles are warm, like literally physically warm. warm. And so if you cool down, that whole process stops. So when you get back on the bike and you you go to do a tempo effing again and you're like, "This feels five times harder than it did just before I stopped." That's real. Not in your head. So I just want to Yeah, that's definitely that is all physiological. Not not not in your head. That's But that's that's all right. That's just is what it is. You stop at the cafe, you have to rewarm up. Like that's not rocket science. Um the I guess the problem has if someone like the person that asked if they're training the question is is my 4hour ride with three 30 minute stops and six tire changes is that the same training outcome as if I'd gone four hours continuously. That's where the rubber meets the road. And the answer is no. They are they are different. And even if they're the same TSS. So if you did 4 hours continuous and then 4 hours ride time over like let's say 5 and a half hours elapsed the TSS when you upload that to training peaks would be the same but the 4hour continuous ride is more stimulating induces more fatigue induces more of an adaptation there's more signaling going on it is just a better training stimulus so that's an absolute fact um a couple of things I've just noted down um that are probably most significant. Um you know if you do a 4R continuously you'll notice the cardiovascular drift picks up the separation between the heart rate and power. The fact that that happens is reflective of the training stimulus that comes. So when you stop and cool down and restart your ride and then you don't have that cardiovascular drift anymore, that's less of a stimulus on the heart. And so the adaptation is different. the blood volume expansion that comes from the continuous ride isn't going to be as strong as you if you stopped. Like literally the if you drew Yeah. tested that the plasma volume expansion would be lower. So that's a specific adaptation that's different. Um, obviously if you stop at a cafe um and give your body time and you stop burning glycogen and give and have a little bit more food, the glycogen depletion even across the same TSS is going to be higher in the 4-hour ride that was continuous than the one that you stopped. And when you deplete your glycogen more, this the signaling that occurs is higher. So the stimulus is higher. Not that you should go and do that on purpose. That's a whole other kettle of fish, but that is more stimulating. Two other ones, as I said previously, the insulin picking up when you stop, if you stop for like 30 minutes at the cafe, sitting down, in the circulating insulin being higher means you're oxidizing less fat and then that changes the outcome of the session because the next half an hour of riding, you're not going to be burning as much fat and that changes the signaling. Final one is probably the other big one would be the heat strain is less. if you stop because your body has time to cool down. 4 hours continuous is more of a thermal strain. So part of the adaptation that's coming from your the heat building up is not going to be as high. So there's four examples that are clear black and white. 200 TSS in 4 hours moving without stopping 200 TSS in 4 hours over 6 hours. It's just it's it's different. these bulk stopping like high TSS days. I refer to people who do them consistently as fake fit because what ends up happening is you do this thing where you you do you go out big 200 plus TSS day. Uh there'll be these big like brutally hard squeezes up the climbs. Guys will be dropped. There might be chop offs all the rest of it. And then there'll be a stop and then there'll be another stop and and you come home and everyone'sing wiped. M and you think that has given you a really really good platform for a 4hour plus race and you consistently do this and you get into this impression that that's that's preparing you for for the event or preparing or getting you fitter as such. I'm terrible on these these event these rides. I I don't I can't hit the high powers that guys will hit after these stops consistently because I will use these rides but I do use them very intermittently normally just for that just for the give me some TSS I need it just on that I think the the point I would make is you can you do a 4 and 1 half hour one of these rides with all the stops and you go I'm good for four and a half hours and then you go to a it's a grand fondo and you're 2 and a half hours in and you haven't stopped and you're like my legs are shattered. What the hell's wrong with me? I'm having a crap day. Yeah. Like that can that can happen. So my but the problem is like if you're just getting into or this person wasn't getting into cycling, but if you want to have friends and ride with them, you're going to have to do rides with stops. So my suggestion as a coach would be make use of what they're offering. What they are offering is the chance to repeat multiple hard efforts throughout a ride because you're recovering faster. Where is that more useful? Probably earlier in the training cycle before an event. So, let's let's say from six weeks out to 12 weeks out for an event. I think these rides are great. Go and do them. Smash up a climb in the in the first hour. Smash up a climb in the next hour. Rest, warm up, smash up a climb if you can after the second or third stop. Like, make use of that fact. Um, the problem is that's just not quite the stimulus you want in the five weeks before an event. And so you may then have to go, all right, I'm just going to skip this ride for a couple of weeks and do a and then do a continuous ride. So you would just I would probably try and use it like that. Use it for its offering instead of trying to fight against it. Well, he Can you answer this for me? This was the last part of his question. I've tried communicating to the group that the stops are killing my legs, but they dismiss it. Is it is it just me? If not, what can I say to these guys? What what does this person do? Do you just accept that it's it's a slop ride all season and you just put up with it? Can I Can I I'm not the person to ask. Okay. I I have sitting here and I'm thinking about it. I have three times in the last two years Mhm. simply left the ride. Okay. We got to stop two and I just went I actually all each time I just made up an excuse, got a pretend phone call and turned around and went the other way. Okay. Y So, I am not the person to ask about what to say because you're just going to be a dick. Like, hey guys, stop [ __ ] around. Let's go. I What are you in a hurry for, Miller? Uh, yeah. I just I'm not the person to ask. I don't think you can say anything. I I mean, the the easier answer is find other people to ride with, but if that's not an option, I don't think you can. What are you supposed to say? I mean, the thing about three people getting flats and and taking 20 minute stops for each one. I mean, you could probably go like, "Can we get on some tubeless? Can we get some plugs?" Like I think there's a better way to go about that. But I don't know. My answer would be get out of your head about it. I think stop. Take the pressure off the first 15 minutes after you stop and then just make them hard. See, that's the problem. The good thing if you do these rides, at least make them hard. Yes. Agreed. If you go out there and all you've done is slopped around at kind of tempo and and you've gone, I've been out there for four hours. Five and a half hours elapsed. I haven't done any efforts. It's It's just pure junk. I just That's super frustrating. At least give it a whack. Have a rip on a couple of sections and you can at least go look that was at least I got a decent session done. I got some some threshold work done and you're happy. Here's what you do. You rip it on the first or the second climb. And normally there'll be a selection made and then of course you're going to get to the top and you're going to have to stop and wait for Coyle back there to slop his way up to the top. Mhm. That's where you just start with a little bit of Oh, yeah. We just have to stop quite a bit on this one, don't we? Yeah. Uh I think maybe next weekend you want to do the bully loop. Maybe just like you, me, Steve, and Jeff. It's like just might be good prep for Bondo Worlds. You just sort of splinter group. Splinter splinter group. Just create a little splinter group and that's your there's your f. I mean, I don't know what standing you have. in the group whether you you're not worked up to that to that level yet, but little Super League. I like that. All right, welcome. Because most people just scroll to this part of the the show now, I'm told. So, welcome everyone to this week's episode of Dog or Fast B. You haven't missed much. Don't worry about it. We're going to charge through them this week cuz we've got a bonus couple. All right, so we're going to kick it off with a in color entropy speed stone. Oh, yes. Oh, sick. Okay. SS 2024 in color 3538 3D printed tie mount uh bars group set is Jura Ace with 160 mil cranks ceramic speed T4 T47 bottom bracket 5440s. We've got an 1134 Zutto ultra light cassette. Mhm. The wheels are the alien 54 uh 4560s 25 internal 34 external stroke pull carbon bladed spokes ratchet hub your ratchets. Um 30 mil how many ratchets is it? How what's the degrees of engagement? Degrees of engagement to be confirmed. I'm not sure. Uh we have the Favo Dwey Duo pedals proile saddle carbon rails and there it is. The owner is very confident in saying that this is a one of a kind. Okay. In fact, he's entered this multiple times. Okay. And it's finally got his way through. Yeah. Well, I mean, this is like straight down my I mean, he's speced this for me. I mean, this is really interesting. So, for those that aren't quite aware, so in color, entropy, speed star. So, this was one of these premium Chinese frames that it's not new. I I I think I remember seeing it even one or two years ago. Um, but it only seemed to sell domestically in China and it was it had some wind tunnel testing behind it. I think it was one of these ones sort of were faster than the SL8. Maybe that seeker spearish kind of level, more premium, not super cheap. Um, but they did quite a good job of the marketing. It just never quite made it over to us in the Western countries for some reason. Interesting. Here on the frame, he said he's got a 30 front, 32 rear. That's on a 25 internal. So, yeah, measuring 33 front, 34 rear, and he's claiming clearance for 38 mm. That's an incredible road bike. I think it's awesome. Yeah, I think it's awesome. Um, spoiler alert, I've been quite enjoying riding the Quick Pro. Mhm. And that you look at some of the shapes, very, very similar. Mhm. very similar. Uh, great wheels, great wheels, great tire selection, super specs. This is a freaking rocket ship. I'm going to go as far as saying rocket ship now. Well played. Can Jesse still show some love? Black 2. Can Jesse still show some love for his old bike? Giant TCR Advance 2017. Oh yeah. Shimano Altegra 11speed 5236 in the front, 1134 in the back, 120 mil data stem, 40 mil vision arrow handlebars, 55 deep light bicycle rims with some DT Swiss hubs with steel sapam smoke spokes, tires are conent GV5000s. It's got my saddle, the superflow elite bottle cages, good enough for some decent grand fondo results. 50th out of 500 in 18 to 30 age cat at the Marmmont Billy Day Out would have been well suited to that. I do like that colorway. That was interesting in it. There we are. There it is. Jesse, is there any circumstance where you would see that at home? Mhm. You'd pull it off the rack and take it out for a spin. I think it'd be fun to bash down to Laparoos on it just just for the novelty. Um, but I mean it's not a fast bike. Let's just It doesn't have the tire clearance. Um, I'll take a mechanical just for a laugh. I think it'd be fun just to get the feeling of the old, you know, push the lever again, not just click the button. That'd be fun. There's a whole rat's nest of cables up the front. you know, once a, you know, if I had it, you know, once a month for a laugh, maybe, but it's not a fast bike. I mean, we we've we've moved on so far that it's I can't I can't do it. You going to say it then, Jesse? Unfortunately, you're making you're like you're holding you're like making me walk the plank. Unfortunately, that rim brake giant TCR is a dog of a bike. One dog, one fast bike. All right, bike three. Vitus ZX1 size 58 rival red group set 4835 train ring 1033 cassette Reynolds black label 60s 3032 GP5000s. Come on Jesse and Chris, get this black on the show. Guaranteed the only one of this spec in Australia. There's a reason for that. Oh, dear me. The old Vitus. Okay. What are you looking at? Where where is what is your eye drawn to first? I'm going to go inside the mind of Chris Miller dissecting the ride. First thing I noticed is the fact you've got enormous water bottles in there and there's still a lot of frame frame clearance. So, we're talking a rather large lad. No two ways about it. Um, it's just the uh the first thing I'm drawn to are the the angles. Mhm. Seeing a lot of angles on this bike, Jesse, and there's some angles here that worry me. So, we've got we've got some sort of real flat top tube with it's all angled. Then we've got this little seat stay angulation, little lapier type angling happening there. That bothers me. That worries me. There's there's potential for movement. A big thick fat rounded sort of seat post bothers me. If you just looked at sort of the back half of the frame, you could almost convince yourself it's pretty quick. But then you get to that head tube and there's just you can tell that's that's not a 2025 head tube shape. It It doesn't have the sculpting. It doesn't Yeah, there's not a lot going on there. I just think this would be You'd be struggling to convince me this is any quicker than sort of 215 to a magazine. Jeez, that's that's giving it high praise. cuz it's got the aero seat, the drop seat stays, the aero seat tube, seat post thing, but the not a lot going on at the front end. You're probably just sub 2, just out of sort of climbing bike territory. I'd probably say 217 realistically. Vitus was that wiggle brand, wasn't it, that no longer exists. Reynolds wheels are sort of, you know, all right, much of a muchness really. Tire selection is good, but we can't give a fast bike just because you picked the correct width of tires. So, I'm gonna have to say that is a dog of a bike. To me, this is this is there's nothing. This is the situation when we're with the the sloppy rim versus disc debate and people would show me this disc brake bike and go, "Dend it. Defend this bike, Chris, as a disc brake bike. I can't defend it." I think this, so this is why I'm giving it dog of a bike. If you got this rider and you put them on an S Works Tarmac SL8 with the new Roal carbon spoked wheels, they'd go, "Holy [ __ ] what sport is this?" This is Yeah. Or if you put them on a Scott Foil with a set of scopes, they'd go, "Oh, sorry, I shouldn't say scopes. Let's Let's keep the price reasonable, mate. Put them on a TL. Put them on a Quick Pro. Put them on a Put them on a Quick Pro with a set of 60 mil fast. Put them on that in his size." I think you go, "Oh, okay. We're we're we're working with something here. I do honestly think that. So I just think it's a dog. This geometry could be a challenge for old mate on a uh quick pro. That will be my only the looks of those bottles. We may have some stack some stack for days. All right. Bike four. I told you we're in for a good week this week. This is my Whiz R1. Oh, we are looking at So it's a built to order from the owner Whiz. Whiz is run by an Australian couple based in Melbourne. Uh group sets Jura Ace 12speed 5236 40 cm integrated bars 110 Sten. He turns his hoods into 36s. He's got some galers. Got some galers on there ladies and gentlemen. BSA 30 bottom bracket. Whiz 40 mil carbon spoke climbing wheels. 1140 g. Okay. With a 24 and point4 internal. All right. So, it's coming out at uh 6.91 kilos on the whiz. And there it is. Now, he has stated that his J his FTP is 273 watts, but he is available to be coached by you. He says he's got room for improvement. 273 is all right. How tall is he? It's not too bad. Too bad. The whiz, though. The whiz. Here it is. If this isn't an SL7, I don't know what is. That is an SL7 with some zip. No, actually, well, it's Yeah, got some zips. No, zips don't run carbon spokes, do they? Whizzes. I really like this. Oh, okay. Talk me. I really like this. I think there's going to be I think there's going to be some snappiness. Mhm. I think we've got a nice wide rim internal. They're a light wheel. So, whatever. Dead. Look, it's it's not going to be a pleasant ride. Is it going to be able to roll turns? I think so. I think you're going to get yourself into a nice little position. It doesn't have too much of a bar drop there. You can tuck your head. He's got this at 6.91 with pedals out front mount lights and cages. Mate, whizzes. Whizz is head of the game here. That's 6.7. That's literally get t on this SL7 weight. No, I I look I I'm positive I'm I'm all for team whiz. I What about the layup? Well, I mean, get in there with a camera. Get the telescopic camera in the bottom bracket. What do you As I stated last week, the layup is the most overrated feature on any bike. The As long as that carbon holds together, I'm on board. Okay. All right. I'm on board. I am slightly confused with why we're using a different font from the W to the zed on the the logo. It just seems like they I don't know forgot what font they were using and had to change it along the way. But maybe that's in that's just the whiz style potentially. Part of the charm. Part of the charm. I'm calling it fast bike. Whizar run certified fast. Certified fast bike. Uh, bike five this week is a Polygon Stratos S7X. I'm a tall for a woman, so on a large 56 Shimano 105 12speed Di2 Fivera Asama pedals, single-sided wheels are 35 mil deep Yolio. What? SAT DB Pro NXT SL2 rim width 32. Okay, those are the good yolios. Good. Thank you. Uh 30 mil GP5000s uh integrated TVL arrow bars 38 cm wide 120 stem. She's running a power saddle. The specialized 7.6 with pedals, cages, and GPS mount. Entire build came out to under 3.5,000 USD. This is interesting. That's a dog of a bike. Okay. Sorry. Look at you. Look how nice you were going. Look, it's Sorry. No, no. I'm gonna straight It's a dog of a frame. I mean, look at it. That's just That's so slow. That's just a very slow frame. I'm sorry. I don't care what part you could have. It's got a speed sniffer on there. Look at that. And you red. That's That's fantastic speed sniffing. There's no Come on. three and a half grand. I'm not Look, we can we can pick through specs and prices, but I'm just the the the heart of a bike is the frame set, and it's just a it's just not a fast frame set. No, it's not. It's true. There's not a lot you can do here, unfortunately. I like the look of it. It's quite attractive looking bike. big upgrade from my steel rim brake bike with down tube shifter for the front derailer. Well, I mean, compared to that, that's a certified absolute rocket ship in comparison. Yeah. Um Yeah. It comes back to that thing. Yeah. But you know what? Here's this here's the saving point with integrated bars. You've got the electronic group set. You've already got the wheels. It's not that big of a lift to just buy a other frame and fork at some stage. So she she did say 220 watt FTP. I need to ride more in brackets. It's not. So let's say you know she picks up 20 watt. She's at 240. But for reference like I don't know how tall or she does say she's quite tall but generally like a for a lot of the guys listening they won't know what like women's power is. So you know a a mid20 FTP for a woman is quite strong. That's like, you know, decent good B-grade level, lower A grade level female. That's pretty strong. So, that type of rider is probably going to want an arrow bike. So, in 20 watts time, that's how we talk. That's how we speak in time. We we speak in watts time. In 20 watts time, you do a frame swap onto a Windspace T1600 and you're off to the races. and and then maybe you you get some 60 mil deep wheels. But in the meantime, you are the current owner of a dog. That is the sad truth. Exactly. Right. I have been running narrow tires. Well, I've been running narrower tires, Jesse. Wow. I know. Oh my gosh. The anti-Jesse coil spec. I'm calling this. Okay. So, what am I doing? I'm running the Continental GP 5000 TT tires in a 28. I know. And the Aero11s in their 29 version. Okay. Okay. So, long story short, I've been basically running him on the on the Quick Pro on the Fast Sports wheels. And what I did is I I ran the GOAT setup or what I consider the GOAT setup, the 30 mil front and rear T TT TR normal Conti spec. Mhm. and ran that for a week and then went and put these on to to see the difference, feel the difference, etc. So, I mean, what am I doing here? This TT tire is one of the best performing on bicycle rolling resistance. It's like top three or top four when it comes to this stuff. and most of the pro teams will choose it seemingly now not necessarily in the 28 variation but they do choose it for that purpose and then a lot of them are running this bloody arrow thing up front my expectation going into this like I literally I put them on roll out and I'm I'm ready for the ah here we go back to the bad old days of being bashed around by a narrow tire first impressions. The Conti float remains. So, the thing that I find the addictive quality of a Conti tire that is just not on a Victoria course. I'm sorry. I've now ridden that a lot and I don't like it. It's fine, but it's not a Conti. All right. So, I was expecting to lose a bit of that sensation. No, not at all. The float remains. Um, so pressures I'm running at like a six I'm running a 60 rear uh 56 55 front. Um, float remains. There's a there's obviously a little loss of just that proper compliance especially coming into some of those chunkier bricks around down La Pruise and that sort of area. But without doubt, the most like outstanding quality is the the the grip of that front tire is weird. Like it's sticky and like I'm not some daredevil descender by any stretch of the imagination, but it's quite a weird feeling. Like you go to start rolling the wheel over to turn and it just it's like it glues to the to the pavement. So I can totally understand why people would get around it from that perspective. Right. So I think I think what I'm trying to say is going to what I thought was going to be a harsher ride feel back to the older days of like, oh, I'm I'm going fast now because I can feel more road bash. It wasn't like that at all. Mhm. Um, and I think this particular Look, I'm not seeing a, oh, you have to go do this. Like, if you've got 30 front and rear, you're happy. There's no reason to do this at all. But I think we've been critical. Well, I know I've been critical in the past of what I felt like these tires would feel like to ride. I got to walk that back. I actually think from a riding perspective, they're up to it. Do the do the numbers add up? You are running them on a wide rim. Yes. You just stick these on a DT Swiss which you do have a set. I mean maybe that would potentially start to get into walk not walking back territory. So I just want to cuz that's probably still measuring fairly wide. Um I think a lot of the setups we were talking about was when Van Risel uh when they're on a Van Risel with Dathlon on a on a Swiss side rim. Great point. which is like a 20 internal um maybe 21. So So but I I think um sorry just just from my like things I was curious you I mean you're probably not going to feel the rolling resistance difference. It's just there. You have to believe it's there. Um so it's more I think from memory a lot of the comments were the crosswind stability of it. The aerodynamics of that front can help stabilize the front rim. That was one. And then the other one I had curious was what you just answered which was did you feel like you were getting beaten up a little bit more when you went back to a 28. You sounds like you were couldn't really notice. Not not not as much. The the cross and yeah the crosswind thing is what Continental's big claim with this tire is is that at a 0 degrees your it's not that much faster but the wider that your angle gets the faster this tire becomes ultimately. Um and you know we are talking three four watts they claim well they hang on they claim 20 watt saving at 25 at 45 km an hour at a 20° your angle. So a 20 degree your angle at 45 km an hour that's not very realistic really you'd have to be getting like you'd have to be getting like a gale you'd have to a cyclone coming from your problems lie elsewhere if you're getting those sort of crosswinds um yeah but because I got sent when I said that I was writing this I got sent that um aerrow coach article which kind of shadow battle over these really. It wasn't was was not very positive at all. Um but again, this is another one of these. And then why was it negative? What was it saying? Um basically that the rolling resistance the rolling resistance tradeoff was dramatically higher than whatever error advantage you could possibly find with this tire was. Right. But they were running the the narrow tire on. So they were running the 26 version and they were running it on a 19 mil rim internal wheel. So I'm not sure how the rolling resistance how that plots on a graph when you move it up to something that is almost 5 mm wider as an internal rim. So weren't they comparing all the tires on the same rim? They were, but they were all they were the 26s and But that's my question. Is is the rolling resistance of a 26 mil tire on a on a 19 mil rim internal? Is is are those differences going to be the same as what a 24 mil rim internal with a 29 mil tire is? But the the in that article they tested against a 25 mil GP5000 TT. Yep. Yeah. So that the rolling resistance was just slower, not because the the rim was consistent. Yes. Yeah. But that's my point is that's not this tire and that's not on this wheel on the specification of this wheel. But you would assume the results the difference stays true if you went to a 29 mil aotire and a 28 mil GP5000 TT. Like the difference would still be there. That's what I don't know. like but I don't know maybe that's not the case maybe the rolling resistance difference becomes much smaller I mean the arrow difference becomes different becomes different you know what I mean anyway my point is I think with with the numbers when it comes down to this tire that yes you can you find yourself in this game of well I've found three watts of aerodynamics but hang on if I'm on certain pavement I'm losing using seven watt. So, it's an ultimate loss, but it's not something I can determine. I could all all I really wanted to determine was what they were like to ride. And I quite like riding them. I mean, you go on that when I when we this was the Roval the Specialized tire um thumbnail we did a few weeks ago and there's people in there going like I put the Conti tire on and I and it changed my life. Yes. Have you Is it that good? the front. That front I put it on an envy and I could you couldn't you wouldn't believe. I tell you what, I'm not exaggerating. That's what the comments are. No, if if I'd come from the Victoria courses and I put that wheel on and that tire on, I would be Yeah. I would say Oh, yeah. That is changed my life. The problem is I've come from a 30, right? My The My problem is my expectations were so low, right? My expectations were like they just have to feel the similar and they feel similar another way. Okay, maybe a better way to ask would be like for the next 6 months, are you going to stick with this setup or you probably go back wider again? That will all come down Jesse Coyle to whether I get a puncture or not because ultimately that is the biggest. I mean, I would run that TT tire. I would run the TT front and back. You're saving um 35 grams. Even though weight doesn't matter, Jesse, you're saving 35 g over. Look at it. I'm talking about walking back on a 28 versus the 28, you're saving 35 g. So, it's probably going to be more than that, but closer to 50 g per tire. You run a 30 front and rear TT tire, but if I'm only going to get a week out of it, the TT tire, I don't think comes in a 30, isn't it? That's what the archetype tire is for. You could go buy the archetype tire. Can I? Yeah. Okay. We'll see. Um but yeah, I mean if if that okay if that rear tire doesn't flat it's what it's a 18th of June or July. If I get till it's got to get to October. Okay. What if Okay, let's say it flats and you go back to a regular GP5000 STR. Are you going to go back to a 30 or stick with a 28? Oh, good question. Cuz this is because this could be we Chris Miller reads his words. If you go actually I'm going back to a 28. Well, here's the thing. Because I took the 30 off, I'm not buying a new one, so I would just put the 30 on. But let's assume Continental Politician. Look at you. Let's say let's say Continental said, "Chris, we'll give you whatever tie you want now for the rear." What would you put on? How How long did I get out of the TT? How long did I get out of it? No, you're going back to a regular GB 5000. Forget about the TT version. Oh, okay. Yeah, I'd go to a 30. Okay. Yeah. push comes to shove, I'd go to a 30. Yeah. Yeah. What about on the front? Um Oh, I if that doesn't flat, I'm not taking it off. I have no issue with that that tire at all. Sorry. I'm just I I'm I'm more I'm more interested in the width conversation. The actual I mean, I don't really Yeah, just so you're my Okay, that's a that's a good way cuz I went the opposite. Remember for Ken Dynville, I put the 30 on the front and then we went to the wind tunnel and then the 30 was just as quick and then I'm like I'm not why would I go back to a 28 unless I was doing some hill climb. And so that's why I that's why I ended up going just run just run 32s if you want. Like you're not losing that much except for the weight. I'm curious is if is this pulling you back going to actually I kind of like your 20 my 28s. Maybe not. Maybe not sure. Just all a bit much of muchness. Uh, do you feel the weight difference? Is there some snap thing? Like I'm trying to I think you do. Okay. I think you do. Now the problem is that I'm trying to get my head out of the space of snappy is fast. Like cuz I' I'd got I'd got around that. I'd got to the smooth equals fast. Soaking up equals fast. And now I'm like, oo, but but is snappy first? Can I have the best of both world? I I'd like the best of both worlds. Okay. Um, do I think that is offering me the best of both worlds? Jury's out. But I don't know. My expectations were just so low. They really were. I just thought, "Oh, these were going to these were going to feel awful. How dare I even consider this as an option?" The fact I'm even considering it is maybe