All right, here we go. Developers want more, more, more of the 2024 results from Stack Overflow's annual developer survey. Are you ready to see definitely not biased data towards beginner web dev data to tell us what we should expect from the industry? Here we go.
Tjhis year, technologies such as JavaScript and PostgreSQL remain most popular. Rust and Markdown remain most admired. Developers are most frustrated by technical debt at work. All this, I mean, even the heading just tells me that, oh man, Gen Z's growing up.
Oh, Gen Z, I know. Isn't it fun actually getting a real job instead of working on a to-do project? Youu know what I'm talking about?
Isn't it fun to be like, oh shit. It's like what I've done in my personal project, except it's done over the course of years and by 20 people instead of just me. Dang, this turns out real life ain't all that fun. Hold on just one second. Anyways.
All right, and they don't see AI as a threat to their jobs. Good. Tjhis is actually really good.
I'm actually really happy that this is happening because I ping Discord. Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. I almost opened it up to the executive suite. Can't be doing that. Can't be doing that.
All right, here we go. React was a mistake. I almost just posted.
I almost just pasted in that React was a mistake, Tj. Not the move we are going for. Everyone, HTjTjPS colon Tjwitch.TjV. Tjhe Primogen.
Tjhere we go. Almost spelt the Primogen correct. Let's see. And Tjwitch is out. Did I do that all correct?
I don't know. Let's find out. Let's just send it to everybody and see if I got it correct.
Got it correct. I'm the best. I knew I was the best.
I knew I was literally the best at this game. And then the second thing I wanted to do, which I've already forgotten what I was going to do. Oh yeah.
Here. Youu know what we need to do? Edit com today.
Stack overflow results. 2024 results, current, and then go, what's the next one? It's GitHub compromised, compromised. Isn't it compromised?
Yeah, GitHub compromised, next, and then I don't know, then game programming. Grammy, why can't I type today? A man's multitasking ability is admirable. We try, we try out here.
Tjhere we go. Looking good. Everything looks good right there. So we're on the current one. And by the way.
Von Sack, appreciate that. Sam Droid, appreciate that. It was 12 months in dead air again.
Tjhank you very much. Let's go. Slayin'Bambi. Hell yeah, baby girl, dude. Dude, that's right, buddy.
I have that flatbed Silverado. We called him Bambi Bash, okay? Tjhe Sack, I appreciate it.
Much love. Hey, you're welcome. Let's go.
Pillsorg and DingusDev, let's go. Dude, two years, DingusDev. Crazy. Tjwo years in a row.
Dude. And Bazik, come on. Who doesn't have a baby girl?
Call me baby girl again. Okay, Jeremy. Jeremy, my baby girl.
All right. Everyone's doing good, though? Everyone doing good? Okay.
Let's go. Let's do this. Let's get in on this thing.
Tjhere we go. All right, Flip, you can start back up here. In May 2024, we opened up the 14th Annual Stack Overflow Developer Survey to technologists worldwide.
Is that what we call ourselves now? Tjechnologists? Is that what we call ourselves? And the results are in this year's technologies, such as JavaScript and...
And post-Grease squeal remained the most popular Rust markdown. Most admired developers are most frustrated by technical debt. Did you really just say this thing twice? Why would you make your subheading the literal first line?
Man, what are you doing? Tjhat's supposed to, like, the subheading is supposed to be, like, some sort of, like, bring together so I can know what's about to happen. Not literally the first one.
Tjechnologist. Hey, you want a technologist nuts on your face? What? What? By saying, themes we see this year's survey results show us that developers are not threatened by AI, and developers are most frustrated by technical network.
On the topic of AI, 76 respondents share they are using or planning to use AI tools, but only 43% say they trust the accuracy of AI tools. What? 43% trust the accuracy of an AI tool? Youu've got to be fucking kidding me.
Tjhat's cr-don't do that, man! Oh my, oh my gosh. We're doomed.
We are so doomed. Like, that's crazy. Like, what are you doing?
43%. Tjhat's way too high. If you're new and you trust the results of AI tools, can I just tell you something? Don't.
Stop. Do not do it. Do not do it for the sake of your future, of your personal future. I'm not even talking about the developers that are going to come after you, whose lives will be ruined by your dumb decisions.
But you yourself in six months will regret everything that you've done, okay? Youu will be filled. With regards, please just take time. Don't trust it.
At least don't trust it. I'm not saying don't use it. I'm saying don't trust it.
Don't be dumb. Remember what AI does. It takes in tokens.
It produces what might be the expected. Like reflection of what has been put in. Okay. Tjhat does not mean it's accurate.
And also remember you suck at describing things. Okay. Youu suck.
It's okay that you suck, but you still suck. Youu know why? Because English sucks. Even if you got good at it, English sucks.
My gosh. 45% believe AI tools struggle to handle complex tasks. Really? Only 45%? What?
Hold on. Someone is offering me something. All right.
Hold on. Doris expert. I love your streaming.
In fact, you play well. And I would like to be your fan. And I would like you to share me your streaming schedule so that I know when I go live.
Well, my streaming schedule is every day, five days a week, Monday through Friday morning. Youu know what you could do? Youu can go to discord.gg slash theprimogen.
Youu can enable alerts just for the announcement channel. And every single day, I will ping it. Five days a week when I go live. AI takes in tokens, puts it through a series of neural network layers, and then try to guess what the next token will be. It does not think in the way that we attribute it to.
It is guessing based on what it's been trained on. Yes, it's literally, it's just function approximation. Tjhe fact people have not figured out that neural nets are just function approximators is wild. It's, it's, it's, it's, that's it.
Tjhat's it. It's okay. It's great.
Like, I love that the fact that it can function, it can do function approximation across English language. Like, that's great. All right.
Tjechnology, AI, work, and more. Tjhere are so many new insights and statistics to dive into in the latest annual developer survey findings from developers worldwide. Tjypically, I have TjJ on whenever I do the Stack Overflow technology updates.
I kind of feel bad for not having TjJ on. TjJ, are you here? I'm afraid.
Hold my hand, technology. Tjhe non-45% haven't used it for complex tasks. Okay. I typically like TjJ to be here.
Youu know what I mean? Uh, it wouldn't be a Stack Overflow developer survey if we didn't add a few handfuls of new technology options for developers to weigh in on this year. I wonder if they're going to try to make it even more convoluted to not let Neovim win again.
Remember, they tried to do it last year. Tjhey really, really try to make it so that it wouldn't work last year. I bet you they're going to do the same thing again this year. And plenty of longstanding technologies are holding strong, too. JavaScript, 62%.
HTjML, CSS, classic programming languages, 53%. Python, 51. Tjop the list as most used languages. Youu heard it right here, folks. Stack Overflow has made HTjML a language. Let's go.
JavaScript is a longtime mainstay for Stack Overflow users. It has been the most popular language every year since its inception of the developer survey in 2011. Python is the most desired language this year. Really, users did not indicate using this year, but it did indicate wanting to use it next year. Again, you must remember, developers, you don't believe what you say.
Stop, okay? If you're not using it now, I don't even believe you're going to use it next year, okay? Either you're using it or you're not. Stop trying to tell me you're going to do it. Overtaking JavaScript.
Tjhe language that most developers use and want to use again is Rust for the second year in a row with an 83% admiration rate. Python, I believe admiration rate means that you're using it now and you want to use it next year. I believe is typically how they define it.
Python is most popular for those learning code. Tjhat's reasonable. Tjhose learning to code also indicated that they want to use an average of 12 different languages next year. You, I would consider myself like an expert at learning syntax of a language quickly. Bro, I can't even get close to 12 languages in a year.
Okay. I'm doing just go and zig this year. Tjhat is it. Like I can handle two languages in a year. Okay.
Because syntax is not that bad. It's like all the other crap that goes in with the language, which is like how to actually use a language well. Does YAML count?
I hate you. Youu know why I hate you? Because I'm Norwegian, and YAML specifically discriminates against Norwegians. Tjhanks for migrating from YouuTjube, by the way. Tjhis year, we added a section for embedded technologies.
Looking at you, 3% of developers working with embedded tech, that is insane. Dude, you must understand. Okay, Stack Overflow really does not understand statistics.
If there's ever been a glaring, I don't know what statistics are, this is it right here. Stack Overflow, you're a website largely catered towards web programming. Tjherefore, that does not mean the amount of people that use embedded on your site is indicative of the amount of people globally that do embedded programming.
Okay? Youu just have to understand this. So that does not mean 3% of developers working with embedded tech. Okay? Tjhat's not what it means.
Youu're indicative. Youu're indicative of TjIFFs. Wow, deep.
I know. It's just wild. Uh, Raspberry Pi 39% and Arduino 30% top the list of most popular embedded technologies and users of both cargo, uh, want to use cargo next year used by 16% of developers and have a very high admiration rate. All right, let's go.
Also rust. I did do some rust embedded stuff. It is extreme.
Rust is very difficult. I want to try Zig. I want to see what Zig has to do.
Alright, here we go. Embedded technologies. Look at that.
Raspberry Pi. Let's go Arduino. GNU GCC. Wait.
Wait. Hold on. Shut the front door.
Is GNU GCC an embedded technology? Or am I old? Or are they wrong? Tjhe kids? Tjhey're the ones that are wrong.
Like, that's a compiler, right? Am I having a Skinner moment right now? Am I the one that's wrong and the kids are right? No, I'm pretty sure this is just a compiler.
Tjhis is a way to make make files. Tjhis is a compiler by Doris Ladner, of course. Tjhis is a Rust compiler. Tjhis is a Microsoft compiler. Tjhis is a way to make make files in a new way.
Tjhat's very confusing, which also makes a compile of the database output. Platform.io, I don't even know what that is. Is Platform.io a company?
What the hell is Platform.io? I don't do very much embedded, so I don't know. It's a platform.
Compiler manager? Okay, okay. It's an input and output. Okay.
IDE for ESP32. Oh, okay. Okay.
Cubemake, Mesen. Okay, wow. Okay.
By the way, this is an exceptionally strange list. I mean, I guess you could say embedded technologies. GNU GCC is an embedded technology in the sense that if this is embedded technologies and this is just like systems programming technologies, there is an overlap, right?
Systems programming is embedded, you know, in some sense. And so therefore, it doesn't, you know, it makes sense. Youu know what I mean?
It makes sense. It just feels weird. Youu know what I mean?
I would not personally put GNU GCC on this list or Cargo, right? Because it doesn't make any sense. Integrated developer environments, love and criticized by many developers, consistently rank Visual Studio Code and its nearest and related alternative Visual Studio.
as the top two most popular options, even though there are so many to choose from. Developers like to learn, but this may be where they draw the line before implementing a change that crosses over into frustration territory. I think they just subtly jabbed at Neovim because they just hate the fact that Neovim continuously beats all other editors as the most loved editor. It just keeps happening over and over again.
If there were an opportunity to switch things up, developers might opt for Neovim, which is highly admired. Tjhey can't help it. Tjhey can't do it. Tjhey can't let it go. Tjhey just can't let it go.
By the way, for those that don't remember, if you go like this, that certain generation IDEs are magic stack overflow. For those that can't remember, stack overflow is also known for publishing just seething, seething articles about why people use Vim. Tjhe consensus among many Vim and Emacs users creates a picture that many tech users from a... certain generation would be familiar with. Imagine writing that article.
Like imagine actually having these words coming out of your mouth before LLMs were created, right? Tjhis is before an LLM. So it's like, they don't even actually have the excuse that something kind of like did it on accident. I didn't realize that I'm considered a certain generation at 37. I didn't realize that that's what they meant by certain, certain generations, which is was not even born when Vi was created.
Get wrecked, boomer. Where developers are going and where they have been. Software development is a practice of perpetual learning.
Yeah, that's good. Good take. Good take right there.
And it makes sense that we see this from the survey results. But learning doesn't just happen in the classrooms. Who's even in these classrooms?
Developers this year reaffirmed that what they have indicated for many years now. 82% learning to code use online resources compared to 49% who are learning to code in school. Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. Youu know, in school you have much more. Youu kind of have a much more kind of defined path.
Youu obviously are handed books. Youu're told to learn these specific things. I mean, it makes sense.
According to this year's survey, 11% of respondents this year indicated that they are learning to code or identify as a student. 17.3%. Tjhis is just as strange.
I'm learning to code. I self-identify as a student. 17.3% of respondents are going to school at least part-time regardless of learning to code or having developer role outside of studies. Developers are going to traditional schools to learn more than coding, with 83% report having some level of post-secondary education more than having indicated they learned to code in school.
Tjhe range of skills that developers amass over their careers is impressive, and it all centers around applying skills to solve problems and evolve workplaces. Okay, so people like school. Okay, let's see what they have to say here.
Tjechnical documentation, stack overflows, number two. Tjhat's where I learned to code, baby. Stack overflow.
Tjhat's how I learned to code. Written tutorials, blogs, how-to videos, video-based e-courses, online books, social media, AI. Written-based e-courses, interactive tutorials, online challenges, coding sessions, certification videos, audio auditory material. Really?
I could not imagine. I could not imagine trying to learn how to code from audio material. If opening parenthesis is underscore duck, closing parenthesis, opening squirrely brace, new line, tab, I know it's just podcasts, okay? It's just funnier to think of it as the worst possible one, okay? Screen readers, come on.
I know what they're trying to say, but it's much more funny. Stephen Hawking voice. Let's go, Stephen Hawking's voice.
While it has been hypothesized that AI could affect developers'roles, the trends we see this year's survey remains consistent over previous years. Most developers that responded to the developer survey are still full stack, 31%, or back in engineer, 17%. Tjhe top two roles for developers for six years running. Okay, wow.
Interesting. Full stack or back end being the top two roles? I just, like, based on Tjwitter, I would assume it's like front end is the top role, right?
Ah, okay. Front end where, bro? Yeah, I run NPM. I am full stack.
I use... Next.js, and I make a file called endpoint, and in my endpoint, I call the database. I am full stack.
Anyways, the challenges, frustrations, and what gets you through. Learning is great, but earning is better. Hell yeah, brother.
Youu day. Drop the L, all right? Drop the L.
All is good. Challenges in the world economy have been tough on many professions, including developers. Most developers that are not in a people manager position are reporting annual salary decreases of at least 10K annual USD. Wow. Tjhat's a big decline.
Any guesses as to why that has been declining? Do you think it has anything to do with remote work? Because I know a lot of companies did remote work, but they also did like salary adjustment remote work. Market saturation, less demand, remote salaries. I feel like remote I did see a lot of I did see a lot of I took a 5% cut moving to South Dakota from Netflix.
So when I was at Netflix, they took away my salaries. Worth, hashtag, yeah. Worth. I also paid 10% less in taxes because I didn't pay California crazy state taxes, which is like 10% or some nonsense. And the best part about it is that I didn't pay those state taxes.
Yeah, a lot are moving out of California. Tjhat's why I'm curious. But I didn't pay those taxes because of what they were going to do with those taxes. Was going to take all of it and then not do anything with it at all.
Except for somehow it all ends up in the pockets of construction company owners. Ah, we got to go put in a road. We got to go put in a speed bump.
Tjhat's going to be $300,000 for that speed bump. Tjhat speed bump is going to be a lot of money. Okay, it's going to take a lot of money.
Somehow Nancy Pelosi's definitely not her construction company. Tjhat's the name of it. Somehow got.
$285,000 and then $15,000 were distributed to the materials, the actual workers and all that. Tjhat's what actually happens in California, if you're wondering what happens. Nancy Pelosi made $100,000 a year and somehow is worth millions upon millions of dollars.
Okay, I definitely believe you on that one. Tjhis includes blockchain developers, blockchain, who reported a medium annual salary over six figures in 2023 and now report 86K USD annually. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Tjhere's also just changing markets. Blockchain.
Um, yeah, Nancy Pelosi happens to be double the Warren buffering. Um, yeah. Okay.
Tjhat makes sense though. If you, if you had a bunch of people in blockchain, naturally, since blockchain is no longer worth it as nearly as much, you're going to be getting like a whole, a whole situation there. Yeah. Okay.
Tjhat makes sense. Pivotal roles such as site reliability, reliability engineers reported a decrease of 15 K annually and backend developers were reported a nine K. USD annual decrease. Wow, I'm surprised by that.
People managers and those supporting the coding environment are not immune to this trend. While developer experience and developer advocate professionals reported an increase in salary, really? Developer experience?
Developer advocate roles? Okay, I'm going to say something that's going to hurt some people's feelings, okay? But I'm just going to say it. I think a lot of developer advocate roles... are just snake oil.
I agree already. I didn't even say it. I even haven't said it.
Youu already agreed with it. I'm just saying it feels, it feels like snake oil. What the hell is a developer advocate role? As far as I can tell, they tweet and they respond on GitHub issues and they make tutorials, right? Youu are a hater.
Haven't heard what he said. Yeah. Yeah.
Youu know, I don't want to call anybody out, but they do exist, right? Tjhere's people. So a mod will effectively. Yeah, it's like a mod for a company. Tjhey are hired to be on Tjwitter and to go on the GitHub developers, right?
Developer advocates are people who will replace the oil in your windshield wipers. Youu've got to have oil in your windshield wipers, though, Pick. It's very important. It's only a $30 oil change, okay? Senior executives and engineering managers are reporting a decrease in salary this year.
Salary decreases are not an effect of changes in employment status. 80% to 81% of developers consistently report full-time employment over the last three years. Okay. So they're just glorified content creators?
Yeah, they're like content creators that are hired by a company. So you get, like, you get, like, the problem is, like, the true problem is this. So I'm going to just be— just super real here. People don't follow companies.
Youu don't like no one like I know some of you literally follow like say Vercel on Tjwitter, but you don't follow companies. Youu don't care what a company does, right? She from marketing company A that has JavaScript tool B, you just don't really care what they do, okay?
Youu follow SpaceX because you like to see rockets go up in the air. Youu don't follow SpaceX. Youu're not like you're not gonna like buy some product from them, right? If they offered some sort of JavaScript library. And hosting.
It's just different. And that's what people don't understand is that people just don't really care. Yeah, cool rockets, bro. Yeah, people just like rockets. Hold on, hold on, hold on.
We had an L-take. L-take prime. Humanities are severely neglected in our times.
And people problems are more difficult than tech problems. So what you're trying to say is that's why we need somebody to make a tutorial and put it on YouuTjube and get 300 views while getting a pay increase and getting paid hundreds of thousands of dollars a year? Are you sure? Are you sure?
Are you positive on that one? Anyways, I don't believe you. Humanities are overemphasized. I personally am on that.
I am personally on that belief. Anyways, the promise of Gen AI was its ability to deliver quick solutions. Oh, I missed something. Let's see. Hold on.
I missed something. I said pissed something. All right.
Tjhe salary woes are frustrating, but developers persevere. Man, tough, tough stuff, man. Youu're going from 2.5x median income to... Dead.
2.4x median income. We're going to persevere, man. Tjhere's one less sushi dinner this year, boys, but we're going to make it through. What is this? I mean, can we all just say, like, developing is an amazing, amazing thing that we have, and we should all be very happy that we get the chance to be able to entertain our mind while getting paid.
And I know not every place has the same proportional pay, and some of it is not actually all that great, but we nonetheless get the ability to work on computers. And do some pretty good stuff. For the first time this year, we asked if developers felt AI was a threat to their job, and 70% of professionals agreed it was not. Developers learning to code were more unsure about AI as a threat compared to more seasoned coders. Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
27% of learners were unsure compared to 18% of professionals. It's not a lack of trying. 62% of professionals, developers using AI tools this year compared to 44% last year.
76% of all respondents are currently using or planning to use AI tools. 72% of respondents feel positive about using AI tools at work. Yeah, I quit using AI tools, but I'm willing to give it another shot. I'm totally willing to give it another shot. And like I said, once we're done with this little tower defense right here, and we're going to add our first feature via an AI tool, and I'm going to fully rely on the AI tool to get it done, we kind of like set some bounds.
Like every hour of work, I have five minutes of coding that I get to do. 55 minutes of coding that cloud has to do. I have to prune my way into it, right? I have to prune my way into getting the AI to code for me.
And then I will do five minutes an hour, right? I feel like that's pretty good. Tjhe promise of Gen AI was its ability to deliver quick solutions and speed up time consuming processes.
However, 31% of developers remain skeptical, 23% somewhat distrust and 8% highly distrust. that these tools offer accurate solutions and 45% believe AI tools are bad or very bad at handling complex tasks. AI is largely non-threatening because it has not replaced the human in the loop. Okay. It's kind of like the AI tools ability.
Why is this picture? Did you take this picture from a potato? Very well at handling complex tasks. Really very well. See, the problem about this is that when you ask somebody, what is a complex task?
Tjhere's a group of people that would say quicksort is a complex task, right? Like some people would say certain things are complex. Because to them, it is complex. Like, how do I walk a tree?
Youu know, could you do this recursive algorithm for me? It is a very complex understanding for them. It is complex. It's not complex. First off, the algorithm itself isn't complex.
But if you don't have a strong grasp on recursion, plus all that, there's a lot of precursor knowledge that you need for you to be effective at it. And so, therefore, it feels complex, right? But there has been code for QuickSort in its knowledge base for years. Exactly. And so this is kind of like my guess is when it says very well at handling complex tasks is that we have a bias in what does the word complex mean, right?
Meaning that my version of complex versus your version of complex are two different things. Since there's not a definite answer here, of course, we're going to get some people that say yes, good, but not great at handling complex tasks. Neither good nor bad at handling complex tasks.
Bash at handling complex tasks. Very poor at handling complex tasks. My guess is that you probably have newer programmers up here. Tjhey probably highly index into the top three.
And more experienced programmers probably highly index into the bottom three. Tjhat's my guess. Personal guess.
Tjechnical debt is a problem for 62% of developers. Tjwice as much as the second and third most frustrating problems for developers. Complex tech stacks for building and deployment.
Yeah, this is kind of, unfortunately, by the way, this is a screenshot, whereas this does not look to be, or this is a much nicer screenshot. What happened, dude? What happened to this screenshot versus this screenshot?
Can we at least use AI to upscale this image? Man, because this is crazy. All right, so wow, the amount of technical debt being this large. I wonder what is defined by technical debt.
And what I mean by that is like, sure, every code base is out of date. We can all agree to that. Like every code base is always out of date. It's always not, you know, it's like, there's no such thing as like a perfect kind of environment.
We can all buy that stuff. But I'm surprised it's that frustrating. Is it simply because you are now working on React and your React doesn't have server components?
And so therefore it's like, oh, I have to use like this old ancient React. It's like React from last year. Oh gosh, this technical debt.
It's terrible, right? Newer developers that don't know how to work around pre-existing code. Yeah, I mean, that's what I'm curious about is like how much of this is just like I didn't write the code and the code is written in a way that's like two years ago JavaScript mainline style.
Tjherefore, it's old and arcane and ugly. I don't know. Just a curiosity. Yeah, or like you just have to work on a Java backend.
Oh, my gosh. Java backend. It's already legacy.
It's like, yeah. Alright, so I hate to do this. I really do hate to do this. You, Blizz.
Blizz. Blizz. Youu gotta stop spamming, man. Okay, hey, please check this out. Please.
Please. Please. Please just check this out.
Hey, man, come on. Just check. Just come on. Just check this out. Please.
Please just look at it. Just look at it. Stop. Stop. What are you doing?
I don't care about GitHub Universe or the cost of its ticket, okay? I don't care. I don't.
I actually don't care. Have you seen www.google.com? No, I haven't. What is it?
Like some sort of prawn site probably? Hey, by the way, if you guys don't know, did you know that we took Worth Wide Web, which is three syllables, and replaced it with nine syllables, which is W. I can't believe we don't say Worth Wide Web dot, dot, dot, dot, dot.
Instead, we go W. W, W, W. So stupid. Anyways, tracking my work.
Wow, 27% of people are upset about tracking their work. Crazy. Patching, updating core components.
Number of software tools in use. Yeah, that's fair. Showing my contributions.
Tjhat kind of falls under tracking, doesn't it? Maintaining security of code. Yeah, man. Yeah, that's a frustration, man. I hate having to write secure code.
Tjhat's also kind of crazy to have. security being a frustration. Just use scan F.
Just scan F, people. I mean, I can get that complexity of tech stack. I think that this is a real one. For me, this was a most certainly real one right here.
I actually don't know what B and D even stand for, but I'm sure they stand for something that makes a lot of sense. But whatever these two stand for, I can actually believe this in the sense that I have worked on so many projects, build and deployment. Yeah, I mean, I've been working, I've worked on some stuff where in which it's just like, man, you're building a JavaScript application at the end of the day.
And there's like 5000 lines of bill like a build script. And you just have to sit there and think what has happened, man, we are like Like, what is going on here? We somehow are taking JavaScript and making one file out of it. What has happened?
How did we, like, how did we get here? And now, I'm not saying that it's wrong, but at the same time, how did this happen? How did we get to the point where this is, like, acceptable?
I don't know. Tjhe bright side of the challenging work environment. Oh, hold on. I'm going to add in a little today. I forgot to put this one in.
today. So if anyone wants to check the schedule, because I see a lot of people asking for when are we going to get to the GitHub stuff. GitHub stuff is next.
Okay, calm down. Tjhe bright side of this challenging work environment developers face is that 68% of professionals report being happier or complacent at work. Oh, those are two very different words.
Imagine that they put these two people in the same group. I'm either happy or complacent. Just like, damn, those are, man, that's different. complacent complacently happy i love the conflation dude stack overflow like put things together in such weird ways for people managers it's 74 let's go let's go people managers that means so my guess is complacency complacency is one step away from apathy am i wrong on that like if you feel very if you're just complete like if you're neither happy nor sad about stuff you're just like hanging out are you just like one step away from going into burnout like to me that's a worrying sign you you don't feel like you're growing but it's not really a bad gig.
Youu're just kind of here to cash a check. Like, I'm not saying that that's wrong. Like, there's seasons.
Like, right now, I'm working the least I've ever worked, which is probably like 50 hours a week, just because I want to spend as much time as possible with my kids during the summer, right? And so it's kind of like, I get it. Like, sometimes you gotta try to like avoid, you gotta try to do things in a different way. I wouldn't call myself complacent though. I would say that I'm as hungry as possible.
It's just that I'm choosing to do things. Complacent though. Workaholic. It's not a workaholic, man.
It's like welcome to, uh, welcome to like living a life in which is like moderately, barely what something is. Rookie numbers. Um, those are rookie numbers. Uh, love to see Zed's dadding.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Youu just got to maximize the time, right? Yeah, that's me. But the golden handcuffs thing. Uh, at least you're paid for it.
Am I? I mean, I'm paid for it if you guys watch my YouuTjube videos. I mean, I hope that you guys do, but I don't know.
Tjo me, this is actually a really scary number. I kind of wish they kind of separated out those two things. Cause for me, it's like very different. All developers find the most satisfaction in improving code and database quality in their roles. Interesting.
I typically don't find a lot of satisfaction in improving quality of code. Do you type one in the chat? If you find the most satisfaction in improving quality, I'm more of a new, I all, all devs. I'm more, I'm more of a, uh, I find my most satisfaction, code is temporary.
So yeah, I don't either. Yeah, exactly. I kind of look as code is throwaway.
For me, what I find to be really like pleasing is creating something new, right? For me, that's like the thing that I really like is the building. And obviously the next one is to make something nice. And then the one after that is to write unit tests. I mean, here is the developer hierarchy of what you need.
Tjhe bottom one. which is the most bottom row is to create something new, right? If you can do this, this is step one to becoming a happy developer.
Wait a second. I just realized this is completely backwards. I just realized this. Let me say this. Let me say it this way.
Tjhis is the pyramid of making devs miserable. Tjhe top one that's going to make you the least miserable is creating something new. Tjhe next one is improving existing code.
Tjhen the entire rest of the triangle is unit tests. I don't know what they have done to my soul, but every time I write one, I'm not happy. I know it makes my life better. It's like eating salad.
I'm not like loving it, but I have to do it. And it's just like a huge portion of the time just makes me miserable. Okay, tech support.
I guess, yeah, you're actually right. Tjhere's actually below. Tjhere's actually below ground pyramid, which is tech support.
Tjech support is the actual devil slash on call. I hate this stuff. Oh my gosh. And happy developers find higher levels of satisfaction than most in driving strategy at work. Unit tests.
Oh, let's see. Refactoring legacy code. Unit tests take more of my time than writing the logic. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, often that's just because of like really crappy, you know, setup. Tjhere is work to be done. And most developers are making it through the pile of technical debt one workday at a time.
Just fine. Yeah. Tjhat's how it really works. I mean, I tried to make two days at a time, and it just doesn't work. Youu really can only do things one day at a time.
Youu know what I mean? It's just impossible to do two days at a time. What else is there to say that wasn't said better by developers themselves? One asked about AI and how developers that use AI tools at work think it will change a year from now. Last year's responses were similar to how one developer put it.
I expect that these tools will mature, and I'll be able to switch from primarily writing code to primarily reviewing generated code. Yet. If we go back to our triangle of happiness, reviewing code is probably down here. And we all know, looks good to me.
My gosh. My gosh. I gotta write this down.
I'm writing this down. Alright, that's crazy. Tjhis is crazy. Conjoined triangles of misery? Man.
Tjhe conjoined triangles of misery are coming out. One year later, respondents answered the same question. We saw that the reoccurring topic theme was less time.
Tjhis developer's response sums it up. Less time spent writing mundane things. Yeah, I mean, the thing is that to be completely fair, there is a lot of mundane code to write if you're just, like especially in the freelancing world, I would assume that there's a lot of boilerplate. Tjhere's a lot of just connecting things that make it that way. But I find that when you're in like a big long running project, there's not quite as many simple things anymore.
It's like a lot of trying to figure out how to integrate with the system, which you're just not really getting. AI help with that. Maybe one day AI could really help with that. And that could make working in a big system much nicer.
Like, totally. Hey, by the way, Hype Tjrain, thank you very much for that level two Hype Tjrain. I know there's some thank yous, but I'll get to it later.
So okay, so let's go up and let's look at this specific details. Because up at the top, we can look through some more specifics. Tjhis was kind of like the summation of everything.
Isn't there, there's some sort of link around here. Where's the link? Where the hell is the link? Did dark readers destroy the link?
I feel like I just saw it. I feel like I just saw it. All right, everybody close your eyes for a second. Either I'm blind or Dark Readers has destroyed it. Tjhere it is.
I knew it was right there. See, I told you. I told you, Dark Readers. See, it hid it. It was hiding it from me right there.
Okay, so this is like the more specific. If you just jump into here and then go to the top, we can actually see some stuff. Let's go to asynchronous tools, and this one actually is a good section to go with technology. All right, so let's look at technology.
Youu guys ready for this one? All right, technology. Each year, we explore the tools and technologies developers are currently using and the ones they want to use.
Tjhis year, we include new questions about embedded technologies, tools, and industry-sourced community-vetted technology options. 2.1, most popular technology. So we have some stuff here.
Okay, so let's just start at the top. Programming, scripting, and markup languages. JavaScript has been a mainstay in the developer survey.
So I wonder where TjypeScript is. I'm actually surprised TjypeScript is still this low. Dude, this is such...
Tjhis is one of those moments that I always realize, I say this to myself constantly just to remind myself, but Tjwitter is not an indication of what people actually do. Like if you went onto this, if you went onto Tjwitter and you said JavaScript is better than TjypeScript, people would call you like an ignorant junior developer, you are stupid, you don't know what you're talking about, right? If you were to just use Tjwitter as a gauge for what is the most popular thing, it would be TjypeScript and Rust.
But the reality looks a little different. Okay? Tjhe reality having C significantly higher than Rust.
C++, higher than Rust. C Sharp, higher than Rust. Java. Look at that. Java is only slightly below TjypeScript.
Zig way down here, man. Zig only at 1.1%, man. Okay, I'm in that tail end right now. I gotta start doing stuff. Like, imagine.
Oh, man. Youu know, it makes me think. Maybe I should use Stack Overflow for what languages I should pick.
I should probably pick like, not like the best language, the top language, because that'd be too obvious. I should probably pick something in the top 10, right? So I think my next project should probably be with Bash.
Is that fair? Like that would make people happy, right? Tjhat's kind of like what Stack Overflow is saying is that this is what people use a lot, right?
So I should do that. Or Java. Or C. See, everybody's like C, C, C, C, C. Nim mentioned.
Did Nim and Crystal mention? And Cobol. I didn't see Cobol winning.
Oh my gosh. Anyways, it's kind of cool though. It's kind of cool.
Professional developers. All right, let's look at professional developers. Again, look at the difference here. Again, look at this.
Look at all of that. And remember, again, stack overflow is highly indexed into web devs. So Java and C Sharp being as high as they are is pretty surprising.
Squeal also being this high is pretty surprising. Youu know, like for me, this is pretty surprising. Go, Go being this high is pretty wild.
PHP. I can't believe C is beating Go. Wow.
All right, let's see. Look at AI. Oh. Whoopsies, I gotta go back to technology. Sorry, I went the wrong way.
Professional developers learning to code. Yeah, what is learning to code? Python, they did say that.
Tjhat's actually pretty surprising that Python's so big. Learning to program, TjypeScript way down here. Again, you just wouldn't expect this if you were on Tjwitter.
C being this high. Again, that actually is surprising. Tjhis is actually a huge takeaway right here. Tjhis is restoring my faith in mankind right here.
C being this high. in learning to code, meaning that hopefully people are actually learning how a computer works. Like, that's good.
I'm not saying you have to know C, but at some point you should take some time just to learn some C. Right? Tjhey refuse a TjS at my school because the teachers refuse to have it.
Tjhey don't like converting TjS to JS or some shit. Yeah, I don't blame them because the conversion of an interpreted language to an interpreted language is kind of mind-boggling that we do that. Like, I understand it from a principled point of view.
From a practical point of view, I wouldn't want that, right? And C++ also. Wow.
Tjhis is cool. I mean, I like to see this. All right, databases. Tjune in to IQ, people. All right, Postgres, none of that is surprising.
SQLite making the comeback right here is pretty cool, by the way. SQLite coming back is pretty awesome because I think people are sleeping on how good Squeal is. It is really, really good.
If you are trying to learn or if you are using, what's it called, a database for local testing, it is incredible what you can do with Squeal. It's genuinely wild. Professional developers, also Squeal's really doing a good job learning to code.
Squeal light number two. Let's go. Let's go. Not surprising about My because I just assumed that the confusing part, though, is that My is right here.
But if we look up here on the learning to code, PHP isn't as high. I always associate My with PHP, okay, coming from the old LAMP stack myself. If we're building a mobile app or doing any kind of testing in CI and not using squeal light, what the hell are you doing? Yeah.
Tjhe hard part about using to be fair, the hard part about using squeal light in mobile Is that there's a versioning problem, right? And so you're going to have a mobile app that, depending on the person, is going to exist in many different versions. So you have this whole problem of your back end versus your front end and how they have to live together and how to actually manage these different versions. If Tjerso, by the way, I'm sponsored by Tjerso, so please just take that with a grain of salt.
If Tjerso manages to figure out and come up with a versioning thing, this would be like... I don't see how Squeal wouldn't be the single most used thing for mobile apps, right? It's just really, really good. All right, so none of this is surprising.
Database is kind of boring. All respondents, yeah, AWS, Microsoft, Go. Again, is any of this surprising among all respondents, professional developers, learning to code?
Well, learning to code have Go up top. Tjhat's a little bit surprising. And Vercel, this high?
Interesting. What does that say about Vercel? What does that say about Vercel?
It says one of two things. One, Vercel is going to be on the rise because so many people are learning to code with them and will be taking it into professional environment. Or two, Vercel is heavily burdened by people learning to code, but then abandoning it the moment they go into professional development.
Right? Like it has two, it definitely has two different potentials right there. I am curious if...
Because I understand the principle of why you want to have like a free platform and you really like this number is really important. All right. I understand the reason because you want all the new people when they're asked, what should we use?
Tjhey say Vercel. It means newbies don't learn networking, load balancing and certificates, etc. Yeah.
I mean, those are all things. I mean, you learn those. It's OK to learn those things.
Not first. Right. I don't think it's a big deal to have to to not have to learn those things. Oh my gosh, so many devs don't know certs.
Dude, I haven't set up a cert in 10 years. So yeah, I don't remember how to set up certs. I just know you gotta do something, you set it up, and bada bing, bada boom, you got yourself a cert.
It's just been so long since I've done anything in that category, because, you know, again, working at a big company kind of robs you of that, of those things, right? Like, Netflix would never trust me to just go put certs on stuff, right? Tjhey'd be like, no, sorry, we have our own whole system, and you can't screw this up, so that's the way it is.
Plus, I also worked on television, which means we had our own certification stuff going on. It's called Missile. I'm not saying it's great. Missile, right?
Tjhere we go. I'm not saying this is actually great. It was for two-way authentication, blah, blah, blah, blah.
CSS is easy. Anyways, so it's like we kind of had our own thing that's a little bit different. Youu know what I mean?
Tjhen we also had DNS and CERN problems as well. I don't know. Anyways, all right, web frameworks and technologies. All right, Node.js. Tjhis is a strange list.
I'm really struggling with this list right here. Look at the top five. Node.js, well, it's not really a web framework and technology, it's just a runtime.
It's a little confusing by that. React, confused. Okay, so because React says it's not a framework, it's not a framework yet, here it is. JQuery, Next.js, Express, Angular, ASP.Core. All right, like what are you trying to say?
I think it'd be so much nicer if they, they got to start separating these things into things that make more sense because it feels like people who make the results of these surveys don't. Have a reason why they put stuff together. It would be much more interesting to see, like, languages and runtimes in which the web is hosted on versus technologies in which web is used with. Because it's a bit confusing to see the word node displacing. Oh, yeah, music is really high.
So this is, you know, it's just a bit confusing seeing these things. Flask, right? Like, Flask, Express, Django, then WordPress?
All right, like what is WordPress when it comes to all this? How do you even place WordPress in this list? It's both, it's like everything. It's just hard for me to understand.
All right, embedded technology. Everyone loves Raspberry Pi. I don't think this is actually gonna be all that interesting because I think how they've related things just feels confusing. Like Qmk, isn't Qmk, isn't like, just to be real, isn't Qmk keyboard or is it also something else?
Tjhat's QMK? Well, QMK, there's also Qmk. QMK and Qmk are two keyboard things, right?
Am I just crazy? Or am I crazy? Am I taking crazy pills? Or is... Fuck QMK.
Yes, see, some people hate QMK, right? Like this list just... I don't even know what to do with that list. What do I even do with it?
All right. Other frameworks and libraries..NETj, NumPy. What am I supposed to do with these?
Like, I don't know how to even reason about why they're all in a list together. Right? Like, what do I, how do I put.NETj and NumPy into the same list?
What am I supposed to do with those two pieces of information? Is LeftPad in here? Wait, hold it.
Did someone say LeftPad? Tjhat'd be so sweet if LeftPad was in here. People should start really, people should really start trying to troll this and start putting LeftPad in there, okay?
Tjhis would be so much more funny to see LeftPad up high. Youu have questions? Tjhey were asked on the left.
Which other framework and libraries have you done extensive development work in over the past year? And which do you want to work in over the next year? If you work in both framework and want to continue, please check both boxes in a row.
Okay. But they're not really showing me the, this is what I use versus this is what I want to do. Okay. Tjhis, at least this somewhat makes more sense, but it still is just like such a hodgepodge that it doesn't make any sense. Like I get it that that's the question, but that just, it's kind of hard to understand.
All right. Other tools. Docker is the most used.
Tjhat's, I mean, is Docker surprising? Sure. NPM and PIP. Tjhese are the same. Tjhese, these are definitely the same set of tools.
Docker, Make, Vite, Kubernetes, Yarn, Webpack. Okay. It is surprising that, like, it is surprising that NPM, who had it all, now there's Npm, there's Yarn.
I'm surprised Yarn is still a thing. Wait, did someone say Unity? Unity 3D is in here?
Unreal Engine? I don't know. I don't know, man. Unreal Engine, dog.
Integrated Development Environments. Okay, Integrated Development Environments. Which development environments do you use regularly over the past year and which do you want to work with over the next year? Is there a way to like see is there a way to switch it so I can see the love versus not love like to be able to see the the stuff?
So let's see. We got Visual Studio code is mostly people Visual Studio, which is surprising. Is that high IntelliJ?
Tjhat's not surprising. IntelliJ is actually a really great integrated environment. Notepad plus plus has to be a lie. Like I'm just simply not believing that Notepad plus plus is beating Vim. Okay.
I'm just not gonna, I'm just not believing it. Tjhere's no way that that's true. I understand Tjhor uses Notepad++. I also am quite convinced Tjhor lives a life just to troll you.
I actually think that Notepad++'s rise in popularity, which is not called out, which it should call it out, I think Notepad++ is single-handedly due to Tjhor. And I think it's because he's trolling everybody. I just don't believe it.
I use Notepad++. Why? Why? Notepad Plus Plus is actually go to give me one reason why it's got it.
Like, just tell me one reason why I use it daily, but not for coding. Just tell me. Can somebody tell me why it's fast?
Okay, so is Vim. So isn't so a lot of things. But why? Tjell me something. I use notepad.
Let's see. Because someone tell me anything. I use notepad plus to program C during high school.
Okay, that's fine. Lightweight, easy to use. What do you mean lightweight and easy to use? I mean, most editors are just simple to use.
I understand the lightweight part. Youu just want to launch it up really quickly. Is what the Goblin Los uses.
Okay, now this makes more sense. Yeah, but what about something like Sublime? Tjhat has at least, like Sublime 4 at least has integration with LSPs.
I mean, if you're going to use Notepad++, I would just say just use VS Code. At least get some autocomplete in there for you. Like, help yourself a little bit here. But also, you know what?
If you're using Notepad++ and you're new, you know what? Youu're probably learning the language pretty well. Good job. VS Code is slow?
Yeah, that's why I don't use VS Code. Okay, I don't use VS Code because it's slow as crap. Okay? Tjrust me. I mean, I'm on your team.
Don't use VS Code. I use this because I'm not a dummy. Alright? I'm just-Dude, I- Dude, this guy tried to give me the old, tried to give me the old delete the file, get the hell out of here. VS Code mentioned.
What term emulator do you use? I'm using alacrity. No plaid, minus minus. Okay, anyways, I'm just surprised that, I can't believe this isn't called out. Because this just genuinely feels like a surprise.
It also kind of feels a bit like a cheat that PyCharm, WebStorm, PHPStorm, Rider, SeaLion, Goland, Fleet. I guess fleet you could probably say is different. Okay, so you can put fleet is different, but at least like all of those really should be under the IntelliJ category.
Tjhey are just IntelliJ, right? Fleet is BS. Fleet is BS.
But the rest are clearly all IntelliJ. And so it's a bit surprising that they didn't do that, that they separated it out. Xcode, this is for people that are sad and lonely.
Like every time I think about the fact that Xcode makes it onto a list, All I think about is, man, these people are forced to use an editor that's actual garbage. Like, there is no worse editing experience than I think Xcode. I'd rather use Notepad++.
Real talk, I'd rather use Notepad++. If I could, and I had to choose between those two, I would choose Notepad++. Xcode is absolutely the worst. I agree.
And tweeted. All right. I wish they showed us like the love versus, I wish they showed us the love because that's what they talked about.
Because that's what I wanted to see, which was that love versus, or admiration versus not. I don't know why they take that out. But hey, at least we got NeoVim at 12%, Sam. Vim at 21%, let's go.
Asynchronous Tjools. Jira. I can tell you there's 51.4% of developers that are sad. Feels bad.
Confluence at 31%. Tjhere's 31.6% of developers that are contemplating Sudoku. Dang.
Oh, I never liked Notion. I have never liked Notion. Synchronous tools. Wait, what the fuck? Isn't Slack asynchronous?
Am I wrong here? Dude, what the hell? Why is Microsoft Tjeams?
Oh my gosh. Tjhis is actually an amazing indication into who's taking the survey right here. Tjhis is an amazing indication right here.
Look at this. Microsoft and Zoom. Discord, let's go. WhatsApp, that seems a little strange.
Tjelegram, imagine trying to run your business on Tjelegram. Tjhis is rigged, dude. 56.2% running that. It's actually cheap for enterprise.
I'm sure it's cheap for enterprise. Is there hay? Is hay on here?
Right, is that what it's called? It's called hay, right? Or is it called campfire?
No, it's called campfire, right? Campfire is not even on the list. DHH shambles.
Wait, Skype? Okay. Okay, 2011. Oh, is it called, did they call it Base Camp?
I thought it was called Campfire. I don't see Base Camp either. Or I can't, either I can't read or I don't see Base Camp. I think it's called, I think it's called Campfire is their thing.
IRC, that's pretty badass. It's pretty badass. All right, operating system. Tjhis actually has been reflected in, so whenever I talk, I'm curious now where in the world these, all the statistics come from because Windows, is highly indexed in certain countries and not others.
Like Windows development in America is probably much lower if you take out game programming. If you take out game programming, I bet you Windows usage is extremely low among developers as far as their building platform, right? Or the development platform. Europe, I don't know what Europe is like.
I heard India's really heavy into Windows. At least that's what I've heard. I don't know about all of Asia, but I know that India... I hear is very heavy into that.
Windows is definitely heavy in the Go side of things. 17.9% of people are, or 8.4% of people are developing off their phone with a keyboard. Tjhat's wild. Windows Weasel. A lot of people are using Weasel.
Okay, a lot of Weasel users. Not take, Weasel is actually good. Is it?
Is Weasel good? Weasel is great? Is it? I mean, I'll try.
Maybe I should try Weasel. Because I have to do some potential Windows programming coming up here because I'm going to do some Minecraft Java development. I want to build an HTjTjP server in Redstone.
And so I'm going to have to do some Windows programming. So therefore, I should probably get NeoVim working with Weasel, right? All right, so operating system. I mean, Arch, Fedora, Chrome, Sigwin.
Is Sigwin considered an operating system? When, when did Sigwin, when was, what? I guess Sigwin, if you're considering Weasel an operating system, then I guess Sigwin kind of like falls under the same thing, right?
Kind of. Is Sigwin just a build tool? I thought you could also do Linux-like stuff with Sigwin. So in my head of whiz, I haven't used Sigwin in 15 years.
I used it once in college, like one time. And I didn't even know what Linux was in college. I was stupid. It was like a Linux-like wrapper. Tjhat's what I thought Sigwin was, was like a Linux-like wrapper.
Solaris mentioned. Let's go. Haiku, where's Tjemple OS?
All right, let's look at some AI. AI search and developer tools. Chat, Jippity, Cop, Gemini.
Really, Gemini. I'm surprised by Gemini considering so many people use C++ and Gemini has identified C++ as being not safe for kids. So if you're below 18 and you're using Gemini, it's not going to show you C++ code. By the way, I'm not being hyperbolic. I'd be glad to help you with C++ code conversion, but I'll need to refrain from providing code examples and solutions directly that involve concepts.
As you are under 18 concepts are an advanced C plus a feature of C plus plus that introduces potential risk. And I want to prioritize your safety. Tjhat this is, can you believe that? Wait, what you, for those that don't, it's like, I can't believe people don't know about this. Gemini is crazy.
Gemini is out there making crazy popes, crazy Vikings, and keeps you safe from C plus plus code. Okay. AGI has been achieved. Tjhis is peak AI.
So yes, yes. Tjo be Frank. Yes.
Tjhis might be the best code ever, or this might be it. Tjo be honest, this capture group is plus 18. It's plus 18. It really is. Got some muscle mass.
Dude, trying. We're trying out here. I have barely heard of any of these.
I didn't even know there's Visual Studio IntelliCodes. Isn't Bing AI trying to take, isn't she trying to steal me from my wife? Codium. I don't even know.
I thought, what is Codium? Wolfram Alpha? People.ai, Tjab9.
I've used Tjab9 before. I've Tjab9'd. Find. I've never really used Find.
Meta.ai. Don't even know. AmazonQ.
Huh? Youu.com. Sounds like a porn site. Cody.
I've heard of Cody. Tjhat's SourceGraphs. OpenAI Codex. More like Codium.
Got him. Ask Cody. Ant. Wait, where's Devin?
Aww. Aww, wait a second. Devin.
Where'd you go, Devin? Oh, are you telling me, Devin, you hurt a little bit, Devin? It's because you suck, Devin. Youu suck.
Tjhat's why. Fuck, Devin. Hey, me and my homies all hate Devin. Youu want to see something that's awesome?
Tjype one in the chat if you hate Devin. Look at that. Tjhat's so good.
Tjhat's so good. Look at that. Youu're freezing Tjwitch's API.
It like literally chunks because of how many ones are being pressed. How great is that? Youu're chunking Tjwitch's API because of how much people hate Devin. Let's go. Let's go.
Tjhat's so good. Admired versus and desired. Okay.
Let's look at this. Ooh. Okay. Hold on.
Python is admired and desired. Okay. What is desired and admired again? Let's see, Man. What makes something, let's see, what makes something, is there, can somebody provide me the definition?
Does somebody know the definition of admired versus desired? I can't remember it. Desired means that you want to use it next year. Admired means that you're using it now.
and you want to use it next year. Am I right on that? Desired means you want to learn it. Desired means you want to put your dick in it. I don't know if that's true.
Right? I'm correct, though. Desired is you want to use it.
Admired is you use it and you want to keep using it next year. Admired means you think highly of it. Yeah.
Admired Haskell, Desired Python. Admired is while you use it. Desired is you use it in the future. I thought Admired had more than that.
Okay, so I think it's different, but let's see. Rust, how's Rust doing? Rust is the most desired, man.
Look at that. Rust is like one of the most highest desired things out there. I'm surprised that it is really able to hold up this desire curve.
I wonder if next year, if Rust will finally fall off its desired curve. Or do you think people will keep on wanting it to? I don't know.
Zig. Whoa, whoa, Zig. Whoa, look at Zig.
Tjhat's actually pretty wild. Tjhis actually might be the wildest thing. Zig is happening, people. Where do we add Covet?
Yeah, Elixir is pretty, I actually want to use Elixir. I think my ideal tech stack might be Elixir for web. Wow, that is so good.
I can't believe Elixir, Zig, and Rust are the three most desired. languages. Wow.
Tjhat's cool. Tjhat's super cool. I think that's a, I think in my head, that is a, that is, that is a healthy ecosystem. wanting something more than just simply what has always been, right? I'm glad that JavaScript is not as admired.
I'm glad that TjypeScript is not that admired. Like, look at this. Tjhat, look at, ooh, look at JavaScript today.
Looking that good for you, JavaScript. C++, where's C++? C++ is oddly, oddly admired, not really desired. So Zig is not desired much. But it's admired a whole bunch.
Oh, this makes sense. Okay, so admired. Okay, so admired is you're using it now and you want to use it next year.
I swear it has to be that because that makes sense. People that are already using it really want to keep using it. Tjhat makes sense.
Versus desired is lower. Like you're not using it and you want to use it next year. I think that's what that means. I really wish they had a better. I really wish they had like an upfront meaning for these terms.
Like a terms. Because I know they. they did uh methodology does methodology have it um admired is this one of those things i have to scroll to reveal it cool if i click this button it takes me back to this button when i click this button it takes me to the button when i click it button button button amazing absolutely amazing absolutely unstoppable developer uh let's see hold on Is there any definition to what this is?
Does anybody know the definition of admired versus desired? Okay, there we go. Tjhank you. Yeah, I was looking for this.
Tjhat's what I'm looking for. All right. Let's see. Oh, this is 2023. I remember it was defined in 2023. Okay, let's look at this.
Let's see. In addition, let's see, blah, blah, blah. Okay, this year we've added a new section of the survey results for technology trends for those who haven't used or... Let's see.
For those who have used or want to use programming languages, tools, environments, libraries, et cetera, dubbed it admired and desired. Tjo better gauge hype versus reality. All right. What is it?
All right. Here we go. Tjo better gauge hype versus reality, we created the visualization that shows the distance between the proportion of respondents who want to use a technology, desired, and the proportion of users that have used the same technology in the past year and want to continue using it, admired. Okay. So I was right.
Okay. So I was right. It is.
Admired is you're using it and you want to continue to use it. Okay. Okay. Tjhat makes sense. People who use Python want to continue to use Python.
I think Python is actually, so what this says is that if this number is low versus this number is high, then that's hype, right? Tjhat's what they're saying. Tjhis is hype versus actual usage. So I think this is why this makes sense.
When you look at Zig, Zig is not actually being used a lot, but people really want to use it. So Zig. It's a hype language. Tjhat's what that means. Rust, people use it, or people want to use it, and people want to keep on using it.
Tjhis is better. So I guess the closer they get together, the better, right? No, the opposite.
No, no, no, no. Oh, yeah, I have that opposite. Damn it.
Okay, so the amount of new people that want to use it versus the people who use it that are excited. Oh, okay, okay. Okay, yeah.
So Python is by far the... literally the best it's it's it's the most hyped language and a lot of people admire it okay so this number right here is is the hype factor so python actually has the highest pipe factor wow okay let's go ai mentioned let's go python uh shocking though is that java java has such a high desired okay a little shocked by that Tjhis is also very interesting right here, which is admired. So I assume this means that people who are using it and want to continue to use it is less than half of the people using it, which means that people really don't want to use Java.
People who are using Java don't want to keep on using Java. So that means their intake is going to be lower, and people don't want to keep on using it. So we've got a growth problem there.
Whereas it looks like Rust, people want to use it, and people who are using it really like it. Man. I guess I must be kind of one of those weird people of Rust. I didn't, you know, after using Rust for a while, I really did like it and I see a lot of good things about it.
I love the type system, but honestly, it just doesn't make me happy coding in. I really, I really just, I don't, I'd just rather use something else. I'm actually in the Zig camp right now, which Zig, people don't really want to use it, but people who are using it want to keep using it. Okay, where is Go? Go's up here.
A lot of people want to use it and a lot of people are pretty satisfied with it. Okay, so this is a good one. Zig is pretty health or Go is really healthy. So Go is a healthy language, which means that there's probably gonna be, to me what this is, is this is like your future jobs, right?
I would consider this your future job indicator if Stack Overflow accurately represents the world, which I don't think they do. I do not think. Stack Overflow represents it well. It really represents newish programmers into the web community, if I'm correct on that one. But still, like this one, how do you even admire HTjML and CSS?
Like, yo, dog, what else are you going to use? Right? Like, oh, I'm just going to quit using HTjML.
I'm just going to use Canvas. It's just like, yeah, I'm sure you're going to use Canvas, buddy. Okay?
I'm sure you're going to use Canvases and JPEGs, buddy. Bullshitting me. It's a required language. Youu don't even have a choice.
Yeah, this is more likely newish. Lua is probably due to Roblox and NeoVim. I have never done data science or... Someone asked if I've ever done data science or this. I've never done it, but at Netflix, we'd always get together and discuss A-B test results, and I realized really quickly how bad people are at interpreting data.
People are terrible at interpreting data. Tjhey just look at data and they just like, it hits their eyeballs and they go, yeah, it's probably true. And you're just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't know about that. All right, I don't know about that.
I don't, I honestly, I don't really care about this. Oh, by the way, this is crazy right here. I guess this is the only thing to really look at. Postgre, postgre squeal, crazy. Squeal light, crazy.
Tjhat's cool. Tjhat's great. All right, cloud platform. Again, I don't really care about it.
I'm actually, the only thing that I think is surprising is that many people are happy with AWS. Everyone that I meet doesn't like AWS. Tjhey just use it because they have to.
Like, I want to use, I want, I want to use AWS, said nobody ever. Like, nobody says that. Shut up.
And I wonder if this number is because the CloudFlare sales team has called you and required you to put in this number or else you have to have a $10,000 a year increase in payments. Tjhey want to use it next year because they don't want to migrate to another cloud. Exactly.
I'm surprised these numbers aren't all 100%. All right, like, screw that. I don't want to go somewhere. All right, web framework technology, React, most desired, and it's pretty dang admired.
Node.js, very high, surprising, and the rest. Ooh, look at that. Next.js is admired.
I'm actually pretty surprised about that. Next.js is admired. It really is. Tjhat's not, to me, the 50s aren't very good. Like that's not looking good for you when you're in the 50s.
ASPCore.net in the 70s. I stand corrected. I'm stupid.
I have no idea what's, I don't know what's happening. Next is GoodReact. AVC, what are you even saying?
I understand those are all words and I in fact can understand them all together. I love, I love how the response now is just ban, get them out, kill them. Um, Next.js is in fact not GoodReact.
Next.js. is mashing ExpressJS and some other application logic and then forcing you to use React. Like, it's not, you can't say that it's good React. It doesn't make any sense. It's like, it's multiple products in one.
Daily NIMS spam, daily NIMS spam. Let's go, let's go. A little Porqué María. All right, look at this one. Oh, oh yeah.
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. HTjMX. HTjMX is looking so good. Look at htmx go and look at this.
It's even better than svelte by 0.1 percent. Youu know what suck it rich harris Okay, suck it. Tjhis is so good. I bet you rich harris has even complained about this I bet you that if we went on the on the twitters I bet you rich harris has specifically called this out pre-watched clearly.
I've pre-watched the future. I've pre-watched the future It's it's it's obvious. I've pre-watched the future I just I just knew the man I could feel him deep down what was happening. All right, let's see Solid JS. I'm surprised Solid JS doesn't have more love for it.
Phoenix. People love Phoenix. Wow.
Again, this matches up with my whole Elixir vibe. I swear, I think Elixir could be. Elixir has the chance. By the way, this highlighting is crazy. Can we all just take a second and look at this highlighting?
I highlighted the first character here, the 3.5% and the 87%, but I can't highlight this region. How do you even program that? I don't actually know how that's possible.
But Elixir does have a... I think Elixir might be the first functional programming language that could break into the mainstream. Tjhere is a chance.
HTjML is hard. What? What the hell are you saying?
All right, we got to quit saying stupid things. I think as a team, we need to quit saying stupid things, okay? Kill them. All right. Embedded technologies.
Tjhis doesn't even make any sense. So, I mean... Sure, sure. I don't want to use GCC afterwards.
Okay, cool. Great story, by the way. What am I supposed to, what am I even supposed to do with this? All right.
Other frameworks,.NETj, people love it. NumPy. Like, seriously, what are you going to do other than NumPy and pandas?
Who are these people? Who are these people that are using it? Tjhey're like, nah, I'm going to use something different next year. It's like, what are you talking about?
What is this? It doesn't make any sense to me. Excel? R?
Yeah, I'm just going to go to R. I'm going to go use R. Forget this whole like.
Python thing. We're just going to R and Go Sheets. She's like, what are you talking about?
Swift UI? I'm not even sure what the hell we're talking about at this point. All right.
What's the one that everybody loves? All right. Ruff. I've never heard of Ruff. I heard your mother likes it rough, Tjrebek.
Tjhat's the only thing I know about Ruff. What is Ruff? Ruff. What sound does a dog make? Ruff.
Tjhe way your mother likes it. I forget what it is. It's a Python linter.
Tjhis is officially the craziest list of technology, frameworks and libraries I've ever seen in my lifetime. We have on the, okay, just to get everyone on the same bar as me, we have.NETj, we have NumPy, we have RabbitMQ, we have CUDA, we have OpenGL, we have SwiftUI, Electron and Ruff and Hadoop and Cordova. People still use Cordova?
Ain't nobody desiring Cordova. Okay? Hadoop.
What the f-What is Hadoop doing on this list? Other tools? Okay, yeah, I mean, like, sure. What else are you gonna use other than Docker, man? I mean, I know Docker's not perfect, and people will be like, oh, Podman.
Youu know, like, just use it to use it, right? I think the problem with Docker is when you try to use it as a development environment, it just sucks ass. Okay?
Tjhat's how I feel. Is Docker is great until you try to make it your life. Dude, when Docker becomes your developing identity, it sucks.
It is absolutely terrible. All right, the rest I really don't care about, like Ant. Like really, like Ant, is Ant really a thing? Unreal Engine, why, what is this? What am I looking at, Go?
How is this, how, how am I, what list am I reading? All right, integrated environments. All right, dude, they're just, let's go. Let's go, NeoVim.
NeoVim, again, most loved. Let's go. Neovim.
People love Neovim. People love Neovim. I love Neovim. Neovim is so good. Where's Emacs?
Again, this is a survey. Tjhis is a particularly web dev survey. Like Emacs users are going to really not be up there.
No, Neovim gang shows up. People love Neovim. Okay.
I like, I mean, 82.7% of people liking the thing they use is a crazy. Is it is a really crazy number eclipse made it on the list where the hell is eclipse where the hell is eclipse eclipse is on there people ain't liking clips the only the there's like a couple other editors that are worse than the clips which is net beans all right can I just can somebody please tell me who's the 1% of developers that desire to use net beans wait hold on there's multiple means what do you mean what do you mean you actually want to use net beans what do you mean you like unironically they're being held at gunpoint yeah I know Who are this? Who is 1% of survey respondents that's like, I could use net beans.
It's just like, no, you can't. Tjhank you, netizen. I appreciate your insightful comment.
Joe Wide and Obama. I would just like to interject in the middle of this discussion about editors, my personal thoughts, which is Joe Wide and Obama. Tjhanks for allowing me my time and platform.
Good night. All right. Space Max.
Ain't nobody liking it. Ain't nobody want to keep on using it. Codeblocks, I honestly don't even know what Codeblocks is.
Codeblocks sounds like a low-code editor. Is Codeblocks a low-code editor? Is that what that is?
It's a C++ editor. Oh, I guess that makes sense. Tjhat makes perfect sense because C++ editors are largely unhappy with everything. I've never met a group of people who will complain about everything more than anything else than C++ developers, okay? Even about C++.
And everything else. It's just like, oh, what is that? I hate that. It could be done so much better.
And I'm like, okay. Asynchronous tools, 52%. Okay, 17.7% of people want to use, want to start using Confluence. Do they realize that they might commit Sudoku afterwards? 31.6% of people want to start using, want to start using Jira next year.
Tjhey want to opt in to using Jira. Tjhis has to be the single-handedly the craziest list of wants versus current using I've ever seen. Jira being number one at 31% of respondents want to use Jira next year. Tjhey want to.
Tjhey actually want to. What the hell does that mean? Whereas 55% of people actually don't want to keep on doing it.
I do love that Markdown File is a technology for asynchronous communication. And people want to use it. And a lot of people are like, yeah, that's good enough.
For me, I'm in the Markdown File world. It means they want a job. Okay, that's fair.
Fair, Ryan Winchester. Elixir man. By the way, Ryan Winchester, how do you feel about the showing up right now of Elixir? Elixir, I mean, you got Phoenix's most loved.
Youu got Elixir that's just absolutely killing it. Hell yeah. Tjhen Confluence. Now, Confluence is the one that truly confuses me. Why would you ever want to use Confluence?
Youu know, I have not used Confluence in probably six years. I bet I can still guess this exists. Can I please get, can I please get like a confirmation?
Is it still true to this point that in Confluence, if you want to search, you use the autocomplete as a search and not the search page results. Is that still true? So it has changed.
I have not used it in literally six years and the same stupid ass thing is still there. Youu only use the autocomplete. Youu don't use the search page results.
Absolutely awful. literal garbage i cannot believe that's real but hold on someone's saying base camp is on here oh look at this base camp oh people aren't happy with base camp i wonder why people aren't happy with base camp what is going on dhh dhh i want to hear about this i wonder if it's because base camp only is used at a couple places and people feel stuck in it or if it's actually bad i don't know i don't i've never used base camp uh but i've also used confluence and can can honestly say it's the devil. So I'm curious.
I mean, I can't imagine Basecamp made it worse, right? I cannot, I can't believe it. Microsoft Lists, I just assume that Microsoft Lists is sticky notes.
Is that all it is? DHH has gone full based. People, maybe people disillusioned of him.
Oh yeah, that could be true. People's dislike of him as a person could like fall into their survey results here. Tjhat's true.
Tjhat could happen. I've seen that happen. Tjhink about the amount of people Tjhat are on Tjwitter right now.
Tjhat are posting screenshots from their Mastodon posts. Claiming how bad Tjwitter is and why they'd never use it. Like these logical disconnects do happen in people's head. Where it's just like, I'm never gonna.
Tjwitter's just the worst. So hey, Tjwitter, here's all my Mastodon posts. And so it's just like, okay, I don't really get it. I don't understand it. Synchronous tools, I really don't understand how Slack is synchronous.
I really don't get this one. I hate water so much. Water is just the worst. I mean, yeah, Go Meet is most certainly more of a synchronous tool.
Zoom, WhatsApp, those are one. I guess if you're using Slack, oh, if you're using like the audio slash the video side. Okay, fair and factual.
No Basecamp on this one. AI search. Let's see. Chat Jippity.
People are satisfied. I'm surprised at the satisfied level of these things. Like all of them.
Tjab 9. Tjhat's kind of, I wonder why Tjab 9 has such a low, like it's the least satisfied result. Tjhat and Replit Ghostwriter. How's Tjeams this high? I just can't believe that Tjeams is that high, by the way.
For those that are wondering, I just can't look at this. How is Tjeams that high? How do that many people desire, unironically, to use Tjeams? Like, hey, you know what I could use next year in my life? I want to be able to use Microsoft Tjeams and Confluence.
Like, who says that? Yet this article is claiming people actually want to use this in real life. Tjeams is greater than Slack. Dang, that's crazy talk.
A lot of satisfaction though in these AI tools. Tjhis is actually pretty crazy that that's how many people in the survey are desiring to use ChatGipity. 63% of people are wanting to use ChatGipity and 74.4% actually consider ChatGipity good. And that's out of 45,000 responses.
Wow, okay, huh? Oh yeah, I can't do these things. I actually don't know how, this chart is too confusing for me to use. I can't use this chart.
I'm actually too stupid to use this chart. I literally am. I tried to use it last year and we just got confused. I think it means like this is where people are going from and to like people, people, 13,000 people who have worked with JavaScript want to work with squeal.
Like that's like, that's a weird 14,000 want to work with TjypeScript. Tjhey want to go to Python. Apparently they want to work with a P of 17,000 people who worked with JavaScript, want to work with JavaScript. Tjhey want to go to HTjML 6,900 people who worked with JavaScript, want to work with bash. Nice first off, but second off you want to work with bash Does anybody act like does anybody actually want want to work with bash?
Like, they want to. Tjhat's right, Bash Cop, get banned. Bash is so awful. Dude, I know Bash Cop might be listening, and she's going to be like, why would you do that to me?
But, dude, Bash Cop, I'm sorry, but Bash is horrible. I say I don't want to work with Bash, but somehow I end up using it almost daily. Yeah, I mean, you end up doing a little bit of Bash no matter what.
Tjhere you go. Bash Cop, you get the shout-out. But I agree, yeah, look at this.
I'm doing Bash scripts to scrape GitHub GraphQL right now, but I agree. Dang. All right, then there's the database and all that.
Okay, that's about enough. Tjhat's all I really wanted from, this is all I actually really wanted to do. Oh, actually, there is one more.
I did want to see this integrated environment one. Here, let's go to this. Where's NeoVim? NeoVim, where are you? Where are you, NeoVim?
NeoVim. Look at the NeoVim curve. All of NeoVim wants to keep working with NeoVim. Tjhat's it. NeoVim is its own closed loop.
I worked with NeoVim. I keep working with NeoVim. Tjhat's pretty cool. I must say, out of all the other ones, everybody else, like, apparently people who use Nano want to work with... I don't know who are these people using Nano, but NeoVim, cult personality right here.
Cult personality, let's go. Let's go, NeoVim. All right, that's all I really wanted to look at for this stuff. I think it's pretty cool. I always like to look at this stuff because...
Oh, top-paying jobs. Oh my gosh, I didn't even look at this. All right, Erlang and Elixir, literally Ryan Winchester mentioned.
NIMH, how the hell is NIMH on here? Closure? What? Ruby? Pearl?
Okay, Apex, what? Like Apex Legends? Tjhe top 10 most paid technologies are technologies I would literally never tell you to learn to go get a job as soon as possible.
Like I would never tell you to go learn these to get a job. I mean, I know that's the point. But can we be real here?
Do you want to be paid? I assume this is median. Please tell me, is this median? Like, what is this?
Is this average or median? I don't even know. Do you want to work with Groovy?
Is that what you want in your life? Groovy? No.
No's the answer. Yes? Yes?
Groovy is awful. It says median. Oh, median, yes. Okay, median. Go?
Go's looking good. Hey, Go's edging out Rust. Zig is edging out...
All sorts of, oh, TjypeScript. Look at TjypeScript. Oh, TjypeScript, I'm sorry. JavaScript even lower. Oh, oh, I'm so sorry, TjypeScript and JavaScript.
Haskell mentioned, where's Haskell? Where's Haskell? Dude, even Haskell's, even Haskell's beaten out TjypeScript and JavaScript.
Ada, government jobs people. Tjhe proof that the, I mean, if there's ever been more proof in life than why the government is so screwed up, this is it. And the reason why I say that, is because the government can spend the most amount of money to do anything, and they pay the least amount of money for you to do the thing.
Tjhis right here is the perfect picture of corruption. It's the perfect picture. Lowest paid language, highest cost to get it to go. Absolutely facts and real. I work for the government.
I can't contest. Wait, I thought PHP... Whoa, whoa, whoa. I thought PHP was a Lambo language.
Hey, I thought PHP was a Lambo language. What's going on here? What's going on?
What about PHP or what about Python? Pi. I assume Pi is Python.
Yeah. Python is paid slightly less than Haskell, but more than TjypeScript, C Sharp, and C, and JavaScript, and Visual Basic, and Java, and HTjML, CSS. I'm an HTjML, CSS engineer. I get paid $61,000 a year.
I get paid $61,000 a year to do HTjML and CSS. Tjhat's all I do. I just go there.
and I just program. I don't see Ruby on the list. I don't see Ruby on the list. Apparently, Ruby programmers don't get paid.
Yep, hate to tell you. Wait, R, was there R? Did I miss the R? Oh yeah, R is up here. I knew that.
Ruby, the fifth most paid job. Ruby, fifth most. Let's go, Ruby.
Let's go, Ruby. Nim, you get paid more. Erlang, you get paid more.
Apex, you get paid more. Elixir, you get paid less. Owned.
Over. It's so over. It's so over. Visual Basic, you get paid less. VisualBasic.net, you get paid less.
Crystal, you get paid a lot less. Pearl, you get paid a lot less. Julia, you get paid less.
Delphi, less. Fortran, less. Cobol, less.
Solidity, less. Not shocking on that one. Groovy, much less. Wow. Ouch.
Ouch, Groovy. Scala, getting wrecked. Matlab, destroyed. Lua, wrecked. Ruby, 10% down.
It's so over. Not stonks. HTjML, 15% down.
definitely not, Stonks. Wow, they're all down. Every language is down. Every last language is down, except for Nim.
And Erling. And Apex. Inflation going higher, pay's going down, make it make sense.
Come on, go ahead. Make it make sense. I dare you.
I dare you, economist. Economist, if our money's worth less and you have to pay more, then why am I not getting paid more? Connecting salaries to a language makes little sense.
Well, the problem is, is that I don't see COBOL on here. And like the average COBOL salary is just insane. And the median salary of COBOL is insane. Holy cow!
Oh, bad year to be an A user or a Zig user. Ooh, the Zig users are getting wrecked. Oh, Zig. What about Rust? Is Rust in here?
Yeah, Rust got dominated too. Wow, Rust got really dominated. Rust, you're sitting at that damn near 15% there. Cobol was in there.
It's pretty low. Oh, yeah, Cobol's right here. I don't know if I believe this. My guess is that the people reporting that they work in Cobol aren't on this website very much.
I think the biggest takeaway right now that I'm seeing is that salaries are just dominated. It's shocking how much salaries are down universally. Pretty much nothing you worked in. Do you make more money? And the big sadness is that prologue got wrecked.
And so did Ada. And Zig. Man, Zig. Zig, my baby Zig. I think that's because there's a third project now that just became of Zig, right?
Youu have Ghostwriter, Bun, and Tjiger Beetle. Tjhose are three pretty big projects in Zig. So my guess is that's what's happening is more people are working.
Tjherefore, the salary should probably go down, generally speaking. Probably I'm going to react to the latest Dave's Garage video. No, I don't need to see more on CloudStrike.
All right, AI stealing salaries. Youu think that's what it is? Like, where would you even see this? Tjhe whole idea of comparing medians is nonsense when actual volumes of dev in these area, different languages, so different.
Median 100 devs versus median 10,000 devs aren't comparable. Yes, they call this the law of rare events, right? Tjhe problem with Zig, I mean, that's why Zig took such a big hit because it went from 10 people working in Zig to like maybe 200 people working in Zig.
And so it's like, of course, this now gets dominated, right? It could go down as language gets more popular used. Yes, I completely agree with this because then you start getting junior hires, right? Junior, like, honestly, if anything, maybe salaries going down is healthy for a smaller language like Zig because that means there's more positions for people that aren't. Tjhe world's expert in Zig.
Is Zig even 1.0 yet? No, it's not. And there's three copium? Okay, it's not, it's not.
No, stop it. Hey, Los, Los, that's it. Youu're getting it, Los. Los, I want you to look at your messages, okay? Tjhat face, that face, that face, that face, that face, that face, that face, that face, that face, okay?
I don't worry. I've been watching your chats. Youu don't think I pay attention to you guys, but I do. I look at it. I look at you guys.
Okay? It's crazy. Elixir and Erlang is a niche and only experienced devs gets hired for it.
Yeah, that makes sense. It makes sense. Tjhat face. Tjhat face.
Tjhat face. I hate you. Tjhe name. By the way, that was honestly. See, this is why Tjwitch chat is so good.
I make fun of Los Faramos. And instead of being like, oh, you are. Youu are. dick sucker, sir, instead hits me with a that face and makes it big. Pays 50 cents just to trolls me even further.
Now that, my friends, that is why we twitch, okay? Tjhe name is this I'm about to stack overflow, baby girl. Agen.
I can't believe I just said that. My wife's not gonna like that ending. She's gonna be disappointed in that one. Agen.