i I would say to Todd if there's nothing to hide release these people from their NDAs we have a deficient and anemic understanding of the emotions within the charismatic church and in fact we preach against emotions we we've become largely just frankly ignorant about the ways that sanctification is is intellectual it's spiritual it's emotional it it it encompasses the whole self welcome to the Minor Profits podcast i'm John Mark Baker joined as always with my jovial co-host Jeff Simons jeff how are you doing i'm good how are you man i'm doing okay i'm doing all right i'm um you know we're talking about some heavy heavy topic matter we're we're going to be talking about Todd White todd White has been a major inspiration to me in his evangelism particularly um seeing videos of him praying for the sick and boldly sharing the love of Christ with people leading people to Christ he he has been very influential in my own journey and walk with God uh probably the same is true for you Jeff right yeah so I've been uh in the past was I was followed Todd before uh you know fame through father of lights and uh he was coming here every 3 months was was overseeing healing rooms that I was part of me and probably 15 other people um so we had relationship with him we were already doing street evangelism and he's been a been an example of that for the body for a number of years uh not the only example but has been you one of those those leaders in that place in particular um definitely stirred me on to to doing more of that and then you know finding finding a way for myself anyway that was natural for uh pursuing street evangelism and you know just while you're at the grocery store um so yes but uh we we both have some uh proximity to this this particular story right and so uh I'm sure everyone has uh seen or at least heard about the Mike Winger uh video um in this in this video we're not going to rehash really all of the accusations you can go to the Mike Winger uh YouTube channel you can see those yourself um he also has a we'll we'll link it down in the description uh he also has a document that uh has been compiled uh where he has interviewed people that are former leadership team members staff etc that have all come forward and they have exhausted the Matthew 18 process now they're coming out to share what is happening to warn the body of Christ but you know right now at least they are anonymous there are definite questions people are raising like is this okay uh if you're trying to walk out Matthew 18 can you do it anonymously um other people have been asking well is Mike Winger the right person for the job like uh is he a cessationist is he a continuationist um is he biased against Todd White because of his previous videos critiquing Todd White and criticizing him um so we want to answer or at least respond to some of those questions and objections and maybe help bring a little bit of clarity to the situation and then uh we've got a sermon that we want to review uh that Todd preached the day after Mike Winger's video came out and it's illustrative of spiritual abuse i think that um this might actually be a really good window into what does this even look like when it's happening what if I'm trying to uh reconcile with a leader and instead of reconciling with me they preach a sermon about me where they're subtweeting me and um you know uh we're going to be talking about what that looks like and how the scriptures and the teachings of Jesus can be used wrongly to silence victims i just want to reiterate something when each of these stories comes out there's nuance in in all of it you know for some of the people that received prophetic words from Shawn Bulls they were life-changing they had no you know they they said "We I wasn't checked into some event." And you know to them they were convinced that this was a legitimate prophecy and we can't you know we're not saying that every single thing that happens in that circumstance was illegitimate what we're what we were saying with that was there's clear cases where it wasn't legitimate and without owning the places where it was illegitimate there's no clarity and and therefore no trustworthiness that should be afforded to the individual likewise we're not when it comes to Todd White we're we will do our best to say the things that we acknowledge but also they don't justify the misbehaviors you know praying for somebody in public and leading one person to the Lord that is not the fruit that we are meant to look for you know we people will look at that and say look somebody got saved okay but that doesn't mean that you're treating your family well or that you're you're you know leading your ministry well th those two things are capable of um independently having different results the fruit that we look for is character you know the fruit of the spirit and often times when we have situations like this which uh allegedly have um large numbers of individuals that have experienced the same behavioral patterns and again it's you know identifying a pattern uh we have to look at it with a little bit of a closer lens and say "Okay what's going on?" So we we're going to do our best to be diligent in and uh try to keep in mind the victims of the spiritual abuse right and so that that really brings us to sort of this first question um you know is it right that people who are working to try to go through a Matthew 18 process bring out an accusation publicly but remain anom anonymous some people have said "Hey these people aren't putting their names out there i'm not even going to believe it." Um and to some extent I I can I can sympathize with that uh I I can because if you've only ever experienced good from Todd maybe he prayed for you and you got healed maybe he led you to Christ maybe I mean like this is this is a big deal like you have a lot invested in in Todd not being a quote unquote bad guy which by the way I think that that's an overly simplistic way to look at these types of situations good people bad people you know abusers victims and rescuers um uh like I think that's a little bit overly simplistic so all that to say if you've only experienced good from Todd then of course you'd be like "Well I I don't think I can believe it these accusations are coming from anonymous people they claim to be part of the staff." And maybe I don't even trust Mike Winger because Mike Winger he seems to be anti-carismatic and um and so I'm I'm just going to stand with Todd you know to the to the question of why would people remain anonymous there's a couple of things one soon as you disclose your identity and tell your story of what you've experienced from a publicly uh revered minister there is a flood of people that immediately will attack you you know they will they're going to speak against you publicly they're going to you know all kinds of stuff um so to somebody that has been victimized by an individual that is a ret-raumatizing experience uh to to go public so when you see somebody that's willing to put their name on a scandal that's not some small thing you know right the majority of the responsibility in each of these situations gets placed on the victims they're the ones that pay for the counseling you know the investigation's usually not covered by the minister or their ministry it's you know outside sources it's um you know and and they're the ones that bear most of the unfavorable press in the initial uh reporting so right cuz they're attacking everybody's hero right you know so there's there's a certain uh degree of anonymity that where at least it it shields them from some of the the onslaught and the other to your point uh there's a lot of people in this case that have NDAs that are uh legally afraid of speaking out publicly yeah and Todd has initiated legal proceedings before uh I think that there's a legitimate concern by some of these people i think if I were to put myself in some of their shoes they would just want to just forget about it but according and and just move on and because if it just happened to you it's like hey I'm not going to cause division in the body of Christ i'm not going to I'm not going to like make a big stink just cuz I was treated poorly um and you know I've talked to some people that even in this very situation that was their attitude but then when it became clear that it wasn't just one person or two people or three people that this is a recurring pattern with people who get close to Todd that there are four whole executive teams according to the alle allegations um that have uh either been fired or walked off or something in four years um that points to I think that's I'm going to make a generalization because I heard that before that was in this document most of these things were already known because they happened in a very public way the you know people all leaving and then there's no church or there's a church that's brought in and then the church is gone you these are not that that particular thing is well known in the Dallas area and and um you know the the ministry circuit within Dallas is a very kind of a closed loop circuit so when when a particular ministry gains a reputation for uh mass terminations or or exit um it's pretty well known at least here in Dallas that was common knowledge right and so when there's all these people that have been fired and uh made to sign NDAs it's like okay this just keeps happening something needs to happen so you know of course the Matthew 18 process has been tried we know uh we know uh based on uh some of our uh relationships that there have been attempts at mediation so so some people have made uh um legit raised legitimate concerns about due process you know is due process being followed in some of these online exposure cases and I think that that's a fair question and I think it it's something that if we don't um consider we just become online mobs that that just call for the next scalp you know and god forbid that the minor prophets podcast ever becomes part of that um there are some people online who just glory and relish in uh bringing the next one down and they just want the next ministry to fall and uh Jeff and I both uh know so uh recently Texas has in the last uh week two weeks there was passing legislature to prevent the um prohibit the use of NDAs in any kind of settlement involving uh SA so it's a huge it was a huge victory for um victims of that particular form of abuse now in this case that's not what we're talking about um so the NDAs are still in place and they were um there are people that would like to share their story that are currently behind some of these so I guess when people are like well why are these people anonymous they're they're afraid they're afraid and uh but they but they care enough to risk I mean there's no upside to this i like you know put yourself in these people's shoes there's no upside to raising a stink about this unless they care enough about the body of Christ and those who could potentially be the next um victims of of Todd's misbehavior um they care about the church enough to uh warrant and so that is that's a significant concern now um I I would say to Todd you know if you're if if there's nothing to hide release these people from their NDAs absolutely well and and and here's here's the thing i I wouldn't even say if there's nothing to hide like I would say if you if you really want to Todd has preached a message of living unoffendable he has preached a message of you know that he he hasn't told a lie since salvation you know there's certain certain points that he has emphasized and if those things are true if you're living in a place of unoffendable and you want to have transparency and have the body trust your your ministry uh you know release the people that are tied to NDAs release them from from the the NDA so that they can participate and again with with what I would say needs to happen is an objective third party investigation and you know there's there's a couple of named ministries that have involved themselves you know something that we've seen with Michael Brown and his involvement at IHOP and things like that is there is in order to have transparency in this process you have to have unbiased investigation and like what we saw with Michael Brown and IHOP there was it was not unbiased um you know his involvement didn't help the process that was something that that Wes actually testified to on our uh podcast you know so there's a need for people that have a specialization in this particular place to protect victims so that they feel safe because they are the one you know one of the one of the kind of cries that we're seeing online right now is for due process well due process is is to protect those without power from those in power and you know whether it be uh how things are applied or or what is actually done and here's here's the challenge that we have right now is in a lot of these cases until the minister or the leader of lifestyle which is Todd agrees and says you know what I'm going to submit to a process and I'm going to ad abide by whatever that process is so not just you know saying I'm sorry and you know having some demonstrative act um but actually saying "Yeah I I'm going to allow authority over me to to set guard rails on me so that I I it protects the the people that have been hurt by me so that the body can start to feel safe around me again." Um and right now there's no such governing body and I would I would you know appeal for an objective third party to get involved you know something like Grace you're calling for objective third party situations and that seems to be the need for many of these charismatic ministries because they're independent they don't have any denominational structure and you know with the SBC the denominational structure obviously failed and so having a denominational structure does not necessarily mean accountability but at least it provides sort of a higher court of appeals to some degree to which the minister is accountable now here's another problem and you you brought this out already Jeff that um so many so often the people that you're appealing to are other ministers and they see themselves in the person who's being accused and so rather than and they see the people bringing bringing a complaint as troublemakers divisive gossipers uh or or whatever and um and we saw this in the House Denver case where one of the pastors who was brought in to try to mediate the dispute between uh the the former elders and Brian Kim uh was counseling Brian Kim uh behind the scenes and then tells them in a in their sitdown I had something like this happen to me once and God took care of it they died and so like there's actual theology that's baked into some of these so it's it it's that that is anti- resolution and and um always pro the minister so you're like a salmon that has to swim upstream if you're trying to bring any sort of correction and that's just where things are it seems like it's better to have a system in place where non-ministers are able to take sort of a more objective look at some of these things yeah yeah so I think you know that's why it's important to have third party investigation you know that the claim that the call for due process I think is actually a call for third party objective third party investigations you know if you want due process you have to have unbiased investigation you have to have protection for the victims um there needs to be actual authority to exercise um you know to determine what discipline is to have a uh and then once you determine what the discipline is it has to you want to have input from the victims to to make sure that they feel a sense of justice with it and then the perpetrator um you know needs to have a public acknowledgement of wrongdoing in a case where it has been publicized of their wrongdoing um because in a lot of these cases and allegedly in this story too there have been um uh disparaging things said of other ministers that has hurt their their own reputations you know that needs to be owned and acknowledged um and then they need to go through a process of healing and restoration um and that needs to be determined by somebody that's qualified to um to oversee that process you know this and and and none of these structures exist we'd have it's like we'd have to make it up out of thin air these types of things and um so and what's the incentive for for these ministries to sort of impose these things unless there's public pressure to do to do so and say we're not going to trust you unless we can see a transparent sort of system of accountability for you and and and for your ministry and because there has been none the only higher court of appeals has been the the public it's been social media it's been like hey this is happening and it keeps happening and we've tried to address it and we've tried to bring in other people and you know they're not listening and what else do you do what else do you do because these some of these leaders they have global impact and they're inviting people from around the world to come to their ministry this is Todd right and to come and uh to LCU and then they get on staff and then then experience if you see the the motivation that is expressed in in the preamble to the list of accusations in um the open letter uh they say they say this we write this letter not from a place of bitterness but from a desire to protect others we hope to prevent others from experiencing the potential faith shaking disappointments that we and many others have felt after getting close to Todd our greatest wish is for Todd to sincerely repent return to his God-given purpose and walk in humility so they're not trying to disqualify him from ministry even uh they they're trying to I mean they they might be but they're not saying that they're well they're advocating God-given purpose there yeah the the reason for my my reaction was um you know some of these partic some of the details behind some of these accusations are they have legal repercussions which is disqualifying of a of a nonprofit let alone for you know uh you know in the court of appeals of of public opinion like it is there there are some legal things that are connected here if if found true but I I think if probably if you were to take a survey of even most of these these people signing the the document they would say "No but we probably want Todd to just keep sharing his faith and and praying for the sick on the streets and you know but maybe not maybe not have a whole public thing you know right?" Well I I think that you know there we've had some I've had some recent interactions online and uh there there seems to be a a little bit of a disconnect and and I tend to view these situations in the in a business view right you know when it comes to right um Dr michael Brown uh having a young girl sit on his lap that is his ministry like you do that in a business you're fired like that's it immediately yeah it it's over like you've you've violated HR you've um you know it it happens right then um I think that we that the podcast world right now I I think this is a an imperfect comparison but similar we function similar to how the Better Business Bureau is where they they will receive credible complaints they uh they will give a degree of public exposure if they investigate you know they now they don't do a a formal type of investig now they also the Better Business Bureau does have a governing authority I think that's an obvious um differentiator um but it gives people an avenue outside of a company to express a um express share an experience that would uh be a a mark on a company that is doing things that they shouldn't be And and the thing that's strange to me is in the ministry world we don't do this at all like you know there there is generally speaking if somebody has we teach against it right if somebody has a negative experience at a ministry well you're gossiping and slandering if you talk about what your negative experience was which is not gossip right it's not gossip it's not slandering i mean that you know people are throwing around accuser of the brethren and spirit of division they're not I feel like they're not actually asking the authentic question or the right questions and and and this may be true of me too i may not be asking the right questions so let me ask that or or state that ahead of time um but but there seems to be systems in place within the church that um lack serious wisdom especially in the charismatic church at least that's what we're addressing you know in in on our podcast uh where spiritual language is wrapped around um bad practices and behaviors to to protect people with power and to continue to wound people without power here here's one thing uh and this is I think a good thing the rise of social media has finally given people a voice and and power to address some of these concerns um but people can make false accusations and some ministers like you know they'll have the uh the position like well it doesn't matter what I say no one will believe me they've already villainized me and whatever and so you know that's why I think the best the best line of defense is a third party investigation get get other people to look at at at this here's a question now Jeff um some of the issues with Todd has been um that if you listen to his message he talks about identity in Christ the righteousness of God in Christ I've been uh made holy but he he doesn't just talk about this positionally he says this as a definite fact since I've been saved I've never told a single lie since I've been saved I've never looked at a woman lustfully i've never violated my conscience one time he says this emphatically he came and gave me this blank canvas he came and gave me this pure heart and I've never violated it with anything because I love Jesus my hands are clean my heart is pure i love him with all my heart i'm going to stand before him and he's going to say "Well done." What's he going to say when you stand before him you can actually have the word so strong inside of your heart that you never have to slip people are like "Well that's false that's not true." Well you're wrong i live with me and so for 13 years I've been free from that i've never looked lustly with lust at a woman ever i live with me my kids will tell you that I'm a man of God i'm a father because God doesn't say he wants you 97% pure i mean was Jesus 97% pure you know from the beginning of my life I never allowed people sin against me to produce sin in me i'm really free this thing never shuts down it's really like this all the time never violated my conscience one time what does that mean i've never sinned since I've become a Christian that's obviously a lie it's obviously a lie i heard somebody recently that was discounting his state those statements by saying "Well those were clipped out of context." Listen you can listen to him in context if you have listened to Todd in any capacity he has been consistent in saying those making those types of claims that that since salvation he has not had a struggle because he's been free from sin he's free from offense which um yeah what what else could it mean right yeah out of context in context what what else could that mean he has set a standard for others that they can't live up to and ultimately it seems to be a standard seems to be a standard that he hasn't been able to live up to and I also think I think one of the root things that we're dealing with is a a theological issue um you know the the notion that and I've seen this happen on multiple occasions where somebody's being confronted with their actions and and the negative aspects of their actions which is not fun for anybody involved it's not fun to be confronted with your bad behaviors it's not fun to confront somebody that is that is um you know has bad behaviors nobody likes it um but you cannot you can't be a leader without being able to handle confrontation and you can't be a good one without being able to steward it well um the you know so being confronted with your actions if you actually believe that you are infallible or and and this is kind of how I've seen Todd use the the language of I'm righteous before the Lord i'm made in his image and he sees me as righteous right now therefore if somebody else is saying that they've experienced me in a way that's contrary to me being righteous before the Lord well the problem is their perspective because how God sees me that's how I really am and you essentially you make a closed loop system where you're incapable of receiving feedback from other people that are saying "Hey when you said that that wasn't true hey when you did that that hurt my feelings hey when you when you you know took advantage of me in this way it really bothered me." um you know those types of things where now it's there is no feedback there is no not only is there no accountability in the the governing over uh but there's also no avenue for those that are under his authority to uh to communicate when they experience something negative you make yourself impervious to repentance right and because to to acknowledge my sin would be to speak something contrary to what Christ sees in me and I'm not going to do that and you know we actually see this um in in the video uh of Todd's preaching that we're going to uh review uh for two reasons it it it highlights some of the theological error that sort of fuels this closed loop system that you talk about Jeff but also is an example of spiritual abuse i'll say this as well todd steadfastly preaches against inner healing and I would say if you have grown up like if you listen to Todd's testimony it's tough man it's rough i can't imagine going through what Todd went through and not needing some therapy and some like you know some help some mentorship somebody to help and say "Hey when you act this way it's because you because of fear and what are you afraid of?" And sort of delving into some of the lies that we this is what inner healing is it's identifying the lies that we believe that are contrary to the gospel and why we believe them and looking at some of the trauma responses some of these things and applying the gospel to the areas of our soul that does not yet believe it and when you're like well it that was already done it's like man it was already paid for it you know your your healing was purchased already but you got to repent it's the blood must be applied um and and not everything is is due to spiritual brokenness there are like we we have a deficient and anemic understanding of the emotions within the charismatic church in fact we preach against emotions and we and because of that because we say your emotions are lying to you we we've become largely just frankly ignorant about the ways that um the sanctification is is intellectual it's spiritual it's emotional um it it it encompasses the whole self sanctification does and it's and it's progressive and so that means that if you're not perfect yet you don't have to sweat it you're still in covenant christ still has has purchased your salvation if you're not like I I think I I don't want to necessarily say like hey it's okay in fact I definitely don't want to say it's okay to sin it's not okay to sin but it is okay to be being made holy this is what you know Hebrews says by the one sacrifice he has perfected forever those who are being made holy what does that mean as long as you're being made holy you're perfect right and you know I I think there's a couple of um and this is this is pretty common in preaching you know we'll we have a particular point that we feel like God wants to make so we will make it and then we will overemphasize it at the expense of other truth um you know this this notion of our identity in Christ is you know we're uh made to be holy and and I you know I believe that's true that we're we're made to be holy at the same time that you know we all stumble in many ways is also a verse you know and it means that we we need when when we screw up part of being a Christian is I'm not gonna cover it up and I'm just gonna make brief point with this um because it's something that was significant to me i was asking the Lord one day about the when Jesus mentioned that the son of man will be lifted up like Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness and I was like why did he make that one mention right there and it's only the it's only mentioned one time in the New Testament and you look back that reference is when the people were grump grumbling and complaining they were sinning uh against God and the Lord sent snakes to bite them and then Moses gave Moses an instruction hey you're going to put a bronze uh serpent up on a stick and you're going to hold it up when the people look at it they're going to get healed because they were dying from being bitten so this whole picture is people that are enduring the pain of their own sinfulness if they want to be healed and have the pain removed they had to look at the sin itself and as they looked at it and acknowledged that they had sinned it was an acknowledgement of their participation in sin they were healed in the same way that is part of our walk as Christians we when when we say repentance it's not like you know uh when when two siblings are young and one of them hits the other one you say "Go say go tell your brother I'm sorry." Then and they don't mean anything and they just say "I'm sorry." to appease their parents that's not repentance it's acknowledging what you did how it affected the other person and then asking for forgiveness that is what actual repentance looks like not I'm sorry for every bad thing I did or I didn't mean it you know all these justifying things we have to get back to um to the simplicity of of repenting and if you believe that you never do anything wrong you don't know how to how to lean into that process exactly exactly so we're gonna Oh go ahead Jeff i got one one more thought was um Nope I lost it i had I had it it was right there and then it was it was like a sneeze well yeah i don't remember what it was it was really good just Just give me credit for it credit given good point Jeff all right we're going to uh look at a couple clips from a sermon that Todd preached the day after Mike Winger's video came out and the reason that we're going to look at this is two reasons one is it's really just one reason i I think it just boils down to this one reason we want you to see how the scriptures can be used to uh to silence people who are trying to resolve conflict and man this is this is a master class in that and this is what spiritual abuse looks like so Dr diane Langberg so for those who are like I don't even know what spiritual abuse is you know it's Dr diane Langberg I believe uses this definition she says um spiritual abuse is the use of one's position of authority uh in a spiritual uh given to them by virtue of their spiritual office you know they're they're a pastor or what have you um the use of that authority to benefit oneself at the expense of those that they lead um uh or over you know they're given care over somebody and rather than using that position of authority to build that person up they use it to their own advantage um so another uh aspect of spiritual abuse is when you use the scriptures and and things that are technically true in in principle and in isolation and you bring it into a context that doesn't apply and try to force people to obey the scriptures only in ways that benefit you as the leader um and so we're going to look at what that looks like right for the Israelites were complainers they were critics they were grumbling they were whining they didn't believe they didn't trust God and they wandered around in the wilderness because they went in selfish and they died there so if you're going to tell me that you're in the wilderness I beg to ask you which one it is are you there selfless and are you coming out with the Holy Ghost in power or are you there selfish because repentance takes you out of that place it's not a happy this isn't a happy message but if we don't get it we're going to be loed by the enemy we're going to believe everything that we see we're going to allow the opinions of people to be more important than the word of God and the truth of what's in here and we're going to live by the national inquir we're going to live by gossip TV we're going to live by critics and Jesus didn't pay a price to make people critics he paid a price to set people free and the freedom that comes doesn't come by reading a tabloid the freedom doesn't come by watching some kind of video that somebody derogatorily slammed somebody else without knowing the truth we believe a lie and we're deceived because Satan is the father of lies so all of a sudden we're feeding on what everybody else is saying wondering what's real it's like politics it's mudraing it's oh if we do this it's cancel culture and we're allowing cancel culture to enter into the church because we all have an opinion but we don't know him and it's not okay to live your life governed by that it'd be good to shut off every bit of social media and go after God with everything you are stop living for a like and start to find out that you're loved do you feel loved well I I think when I've made this point uh you know off offline is when when you don't believe in inner healing when you have no close you know oversight no pastoral oversight um you have no close friendships then and you're an itinerate minister you end up doing this you end up processing your emotions on a microphone you know one of the one of the com and you know you mentioned it earlier of using using your influence into the voice of people as a voice to people to win arguments you know it's call it bleeding on the mic it's it's a common issue right where somebody processes a something emotionally while they're speaking and then they use it to they're using scripture to make you know make points you know he hits the he makes the makes the parallel of the grumbling Israelites who didn't believe God to anybody that was complaining about him is the by implication um you know you should he's essentially saying you should trust me as you trust God and you know if you you believe a lie because you don't know the you know the father of lies is is Satan you know if you if you believe just what you hear um you know it's a way of of trying to discount any story that anybody has or experience that they have of him that's negative so he's he's essentially conflating himself with God and accusers with Satan or victims let me say that victims he's saying are equated with Satan yeah right and so here's how some of these people they'll they'll get away with it they they'll just say "Well I wasn't talking about this situation i was talking about other similar situations." And um like I I just hate that it like if you're going to if you're going to make a criticism be specific and if you're not then uh it's unhelpful um I I'll I'll say this uh with Todd the point that he's making it doesn't make any it doesn't make any sense uh like it only makes sense if you understand that he's talking about his situation now Todd does not prepare his sermons um he he might prepare a few i'm sure he's prepared some before but by and large he talks about like you know I don't read the Bible for uh for to get a sermon i I just uh it's in me and I I I live in it you know and so then it just I just overflow it's like well so basically his sermons are a stream of consciousness and whatever is on his mind is going to come out of his mouth and and so obviously this is this is what's going on now these points really are neither here nor there it's only really to set up what's about to come so let's uh get into that here whoops wrong thing i'm sharing got to share the right screen john go ahead one other thing is is you know he he started to rant a little bit and here's the thing he's processing his emotions allegedly he's on uh testosterone type therapy so it's not uncommon for people that are on that to experience higher degrees of emotions particularly aggression um he's kind of ra he rails against cancel culture which is you know in line with the oh we don't want to have a me too movement and there were obviously the the cancel culture and me too did go to extremes you know the believe all women type of of uh silliness um that being said it also exposed serious amounts of institutional uh coercion and abuse and Harvey Weinstein Bill Cosby Jeffrey yep you know there was um a ton of them you know that that were legitimately had there not been a public outcry there would not have been the removal of their influence um and and I I'll say this I I think that there were a few lambs that got sacrificed um uh and then it was like just sort of to appease people mhm and and I don't know how much actual systemic change happened because of me too yeah i I would just say that there were there were situations that had there not been a public response to people in positions of influence and power uh which also emboldened victims to share their stories then there would have been no change in in in those uh structures harvey Weinstein being the one that you know is coming to mind immediately right absolutely yeah i uh Yeah let's uh keep going here on this sermon i am not here to make you comfortable and I don't care if you like me i'm here to preach the truth of the gospel it doesn't matter where I'm at the message doesn't change because this book never changes people are like "Well I don't like the way he shouts will you like the way the devil whispers i'm so over it and so I am so sick and tired of watching the body of Christ be run over by the enemy we don't even see him he's a scam artist he's a liar he comes to steal kill and destroy i'm so over it all he does is steal kill destroy critique criticize grumble complain and we partner with him thinking that you know what well they shouldn't have done that they're going to get what they deserve good well if you want what you deserve go to hell because that's what all of us deserve that's what all of us have earned and if you take yourself into that place of critique and put your place self in a place of judgment the Bible says that you bring yourself back under the law and you will be judged by the law and none of us can afford to live in that place all right is that true no uh I mean he's he's conflating different types of judgment um you know we're meant to exercise judgment in other words not we're not we are not determining the eternal outcome of someone's soul uh we are not pronouncing eternal judgment over them um but we are commanded to have judgment and actually Paul rebukes the church for not being able to judge between matters within between believers um uh you know that's that's pretty clear and you know he's there's a couple of points that he makes in there that I I think are um he keeps saying I'm so over it which to me sounds like somebody that's offended by something it sounds like there's something bothering you that can't be because he's never been offended well it sounds like there's something really bothering you and you are fed up you're tired of having to deal with it um yeah again I think he's processing his emotions live i think he's also trying to you know in some capacity I think he's trying to preach himself into something which you know there's there's been moments I'm sure you've had this happen where I'm in the middle of preaching and and I as I'm preaching I realize the things that I'm saying directly apply to to me and that you know some situation that's you know not related to um you know the the message I'm trying to preach it's a way that God can speak to us as ministers um I think that part of that is what's happening you know he's he's experiencing one thing and then trying to convince himself of the truth of uh that he knows from the word um you know does does judging people bring you back under the law um I No well no here's here's what he's saying if if you critique if if you're if you're one of those people on YouTube that that critique people then you are going back under the law and you'll be judged by it and you know what you deserve to go to hell so right I mean let's just follow the logical implication there right yeah um I mean there's all kinds of use cases for where we're exhorted to pass judgment i mean even the the we talk about this in terms of prophetic words you know one one or one prophesies the others pass judgment they are exhorted to pass judgment on the prophetic word that is given um you know we're we're told to you know the way that we uh address things like communion is there's involvement of judgment um you know that I forget the exact verse where don't you know that you're going to judge angels you know that that it's part of the rebuke uh for the church that's um you know it's meant to be hey you're supposed to be deciding these issues rather than bringing brother to brother into court um which as you mentioned earlier was it's something that he's initiated before which is a it's an indictment of the church we ought to be able to resolve these issues internally to pass judgment not in the sense of you know we're we're um you know saying determining a total outcome for the individual but that we're we should be able to resolve distinct differences in the church and and there has been multiple attempts with with Todd to address these issues as you mentioned before and and there have been uh reportedly uh moments of apparent repentance that lacked any followthrough um again it's it allegedly this is hearsay but I do think it's me it's worth mentioning because I think it was just yesterday he cut off all his hair as a you know non as some kind of act he says it wasn't but you know he's had dreads forever and now he doesn't the timing the timing is interesting right but Right right um but yeah all right let's uh let's move along to another clip here us the father it's in John 14 show us the father and it'll be sufficient jesus said "Have I been with you so long and you don't know me he who has seen me has seen the father." So how can you say "Show us the father?" Do you not believe that the father is in me and I am in the father like Jesus says "I am who the father would be on this planet." I'm telling you the truth colossians 1:15 says that Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus is the express image of the father john 14 he clearly states "He who has seen me has seen the father." So Jesus is our example of who the father is my Bible says be an imitator of God in Ephesians 5 so if I'm going to be an imitator of God I have to look at the life of Jesus because that's the standard if Jesus is the standard that you and I are to be like and there are things in our mouth that wasn't in his could it be that we're deceived how do you work your way out of that do you not believe scripture do you not believe Jesus do you not believe the words of Jesus i just want you to listen to that and then what he's about to say how do you work your way out of that do you not believe Jesus so he's about to um couch whatever he's saying and hide behind the words of Jesus and say if you disagree with it if maybe you're you're trying to bring accountability to Todd White um that you are you are in violation of the command of Jesus here so uh and we'll just let him state it himself when people come against you the Bible says in the be attitudes not the do attitudes the Bible says that when people despitefully use you what are you supposed to do pray for them it says "Pray for those that despitefully use you." But what do we do i can't believe they did this let's just keep in mind who is who who's the guy who is spitefully using people according to the allegations it's Todd he in this example I if I spitefully use you your job is to pray for me and now well he isn't he's saying it and he's not saying it and so he can kind of hide behind like well I'm not talking about me but I mean it we clearly this is on your mind the the biatitudes this is absolutely true this there there are teachings about Jesus that we need to listen to and and and we need to have an attitude like somebody's going to treat me wrong i'm going to pray for them i'm not going to hold hatred in my heart i'm not going to um just become just a vengeful angry uh person just trying to get revenge uh like Jesus clearly teaches against that right but um this is how true things and scriptural things can be used and weaponized against uh people who are trying to call for accountability because when you can paint them as people who are trying to call for accountability as as vengeful um you're trying to paint them as uh people throwing a pity party and they're just hurt and they're not even listening to the words of Jesus meanwhile you are the one who is causing the offense jesus has a few things to say about those who cause offense too he pronounces woes upon them um he he says "If you know that you have sinned against your brother leave your gift at the altar and go and be reconciled to your brother." So this is like this is Jesus's teaching to the one causing offense right go be reconciled stop pretending to be righteous stop offering sacrifices that God's not even going to pay attention to um go and be reconciled and so um Jesus has teachings for both people here's the thing if there's one guy on the microphone at the pulpit he gets to control the narrative he gets to paint who's who and who should do what and try to twist what Jesus is saying to support his claim so do you have any comments or should we should we keep letting him sort of uh uh explain this yeah let him keep going brother let me tell you something can you believe they did this the next person says "Did you hear what they did?" The next person said "I can't believe that they did." Now you've got five people and you instead of living for Jesus have succumbed to the wisdom of man why because it says that it's sensual it says that it's demonic it's self-seeking what are you looking for you're looking for a way that everybody else can join on your little pity gossip criticizing wagon and what you've done is you've given everybody else a different lens to see them through so now a person that saw them a certain way now sees them the way that you see them now you've distorted the gospel twisted it and instead of blessing those that that that persecute you and praying for those that despitefully use you now you've given everybody else the wrong lens to see through and you're happy and you believe that you're right and you're justified because you feel like you've been hurt okay so there in what he just described there is no way to hold anybody accountable like Matthew 18 wouldn't apply because you know if you're if your brother sins against you you're supposed to just pray for them you don't go approach them in private you don't then um get another person and bring them if they don't repent and you don't bring them in front of the church none of those things ever get done because your only job is to to pray for them and you know it's it's entirely at the expense of um you know elders you not to entertain an accusation against an elder without the mouth of two or three witnesses well in this in this instance you don't get two or three witnesses because they're not allowed to speak to each other because their only job is to pray for the abusive and offensing offending leader um he's also very clearly blaming victims um you're just pity you're pity party you're gossip you know you're on a criticizing wagon it's victim shaming he's not actually trying to understand what anybody's saying he is trying to disqualify every dissenting opinion that has been uh verbalized about him right the sermon goes on and uh just basically kind of does more of the same but the reality is here I I want to look at this not as like a hey let's just you know bash Todd sort of thing i I I'm not really interested in that well I'm interested in Todd repenting and I'm interested in um those who have been mistreated by Todd um finding some some resolution and and and some healing and you know may may God bring reconciliation man that would be great i So like don't please don't hear this as like hey we're just trying to just dog on Todd here um what we're trying to do is point point out this is this is what manipulation looks like this is what spiritual uh abuse looks like this sort of framing the narrative using the teachings of Jesus in order to to silence people that's not okay and I I I'll just be frank it it brings some validation to some of the claims within this document about manipulation yeah and I also want to want to clarify a couple things one is you know when when we say that we need to love one another I I've actually heard the language of love used as an accusation like uh if you if you're going to talk about these things do you you have to be loving and if you haven't you know if you haven't prayed x amount and fasted x amount and done all these things then you're not really in a place to to talk about your like no you're you're hypers spiritualizing something to how do you know we haven't right um well and and even to to victims to say that a victim again we put all this pressure on the victims right like the the victim you have to fast more you have to pray more you have to make sure you have to forgive them you you know the the people that are and and the thing is the truth is a sword and and this is a case of it being used against the body rather than to protect the body yeah victims for their their own hearts have to go through a process of forgiving their offender um that doesn't mean that they need to be silent and you know I don't expect somebody that has gone through spiritual abuse to be 100% healthy after going through it's very confusing it's disorienting you're trying to figure out what's true and what's not what's God what's not and to then say that they have a responsibility to you know to to fast and to pray and you know you need to forgive and like that's true but that's kind of the place of a of somebody that's trying to bring them to a place of healing and health the wor the last person to hold victims to a standard of you know how they should handle their abuse is the abuser at no point in time is if if somebody is hand is the one that has committed the abuse are they in a position to then tell somebody the victim of abuse how they need to respond to it and then use the Bible as a weapon to you just got to do this you just got to do that um even if those things are true there's there's a serious lack of of compassion and empathy like when Jesus was near to the brokenhearted at what time do we start to see leaders actually express contrition and desire to to be near to the brokenhearted rather than trying to hold them to some kind of like weird standard uh before they can actually share what they've been through um another thing that I I think is and we haven't really mentioned it in this episode that it's worth I think it's worth mentioning is a lot of these um these issues with Todd so when I would not say that I know him personally now but uh there was there was a time where I did um and I would say that the the change that that has been witnessed publicly uh or that we're seeing when with these uh behavioral type issues seems to be around when LCU started and when um you know when Father of Lights came out and and it kind of brought him to the the spotlight and then He started the ministry and the thing that that we often miss is especially when you see somebody in a pull pit that can preach you know he can preach well and he'll he'll motivate and inspire people but that doesn't necessarily mean that you have the skills needed to lead people like being able to be an itinerant person and preach a good message and pray for the sick that is a different skill set than what is needed to uh to steward people's hearts and to uh to run a large organization with a large staff um you know it takes those are different skill sets than uh than what Todd has and a lot of those decisions seem to be connected to a prophetic word that he was given by Shawn Bulls who you know we we now question the legitimacy of several of his prophetic words this seems to be one um where he gave Todd a word you're going to have this building and you're going to do these things and then he ends up buying this building and starting the ministry school and then you know what I think will happen is people are going to look at it and say "Well the ministry schools had good fruit look at all the people that have gone through it." And and I would say that's a case of you know the Lord being so good that he'll use anything um that doesn't mean that the the foundation the initial steps taken to start the ministry were in accordance with his will and it was setting other people up for failure right i want to make an appeal uh to Todd release the NDAs allow people to share their stories and if you feel that they're untrue like let's hire a third party investigation to come in and and clear things up um right now all these things they're they're allegations everything that we've we've pointed to uh these these are things that are being alleged um and I think that we need to be concerned with making sure that we find out all the facts but I'll say the motivation there there is no motivation for as as far as I know there there is no motivation for making up any of this stuff right i What do these people get the the only the only accusation that I've heard is well they just want to take over Todd's ministry which uh depending on who they're referencing to me that's a illogical assumption i mean lifestyle Christianity is Todd White's ministry you know the it's always been Todd White's ministry you're not going to dissociate the two um his his brand is synonymous with you know Yeah right there's no way the lion and the dread looks kind of like him with dreads and you know stuff like that whatever um he doesn't have the dreads anymore yeah the the former dreads um I also think you know I think that the whether regardless of whether Todd believes that that the accusations are true or not I think a third party investigation is required um for if he's if he's true let it vindicate let it vindicate him if there's valid accusations in there uh let it provide a process for him to uh regain the trust of the body um and also it would provide an outlet for those that have been victimized by Todd to give them somewhere safe to share their story um you know if if there's actual humility and contrition and and a desire to be um to be right before the Lord then hear what other people are saying about how your behavior has been and then take ownership of it um and I'll just I want to revisit this you can edit this out if if need be um the the verse that was that was mentioned of bringing people back under the law so it's Romans 2 um and he's talking about hypocrites right so passing judgment on on people that do the same thing that you are doing i I can say I know you can say that we're not uh we don't have any spiritual abuse things that we we're doing um we are also not throwing stones at at Todd we are identifying these issues we're looking at what the accusations are we're looking at the public actions and then correlating them and and trying to say "Okay there's places where we where as a church we can practice our faith in a way that protects not just the people in positions of power but also those that are under that leadership and a way that we have a more healthy dynamic in the way that we relate to each other if we begin to use the scripture to take away any possibility of reconciliation what can we even do you know I we're we're making the church an unsafe place and I know I know nobody wants that so um all right i I want to say one other thing to those who may be whistleblowers here i know that online some people have been rallying around Todd and I I just want to say we stand with you yeah i just I think that as the body of Christ we're going to have to learn how to handle these things you know this is um Paul's appeal from 1 Corinthians 6 is that if there's a a case where there's dispute between two believers that the church has to be able to handle it it would be a um it's a shame if we have to go in front of legal proceedings and these types of situations are things that we have to learn how to handle them and uh and in doing that it doesn't mean that just because you're an itinerate minister that you're equipped for handling it um there there to those calling for due process I think there should be a process and I think that the first step is to uh like you said to to hear what the victims have to say and be authentic in in actually listening not revictimizing them as as you ask probing questions that are coming from a biased perspective um and then also to have a third party investigation to find out the validity of everything and have involvement from both parties in a way that produces transparency um holds discipline brings justice um and and that we can actually start treating the people that are sitting in the pews of equal value to the ones that are speaking to them that's right that's right yes and amen and I think we should pray for Todd pray for those that have been uh mistreated by Todd and I mean pray for the church i also want to say man Todd White has carried the banner for power evangelism i don't think we should throw away the things Todd championed when it comes to power evangelism just because of Todd you know Todd's impact on my life has been to inspire me to share the gospel and many people I've led now many people to Christ because of Todd's influence on my life um I've led people to Christ i've seen people healed i've I've heard God's voice i've walked in in the gifts of the spirit to a greater degree and I've equipped others to do so and this is because of Todd's influence on my life uh in in this area just watching some of the videos of him boldly praying for folks and and sharing the gospel and and witnessing and like I think that we can affirm the good that Todd has done um and also say you know there's things that need to be repented of and and taken care of here and the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive i think I want to resist this infantile way of viewing the world where people are either good guys or bad guys and life is just more complicated than that um we had Bob Scott on our show a while back and he talked about this and I recently saw him on the Leaving the Message podcast with John Collins and he was talking about how people have this this triangle of um you know uh victim victimizer and rescuer and somebody's always a victim somebody's a victimizer and somebody's a rescuer they see themselves as the white knight and man like sometimes I this is what Bob Bob said in the podcast uh and I thought it was good sometimes good things can be done in wrong ways and sometimes wrong things can be done and it produce good results anyway and I I think that if we if we look at Todd as a brother who has aired and has sinned and needs to repent and be reconciled to the church and and uh who has done a lot of good and also has uh has some unhealthier i think that that's a more Christlike and truthful way of seeing the world and um I I think that we should strive to to view people through that lens amen yeah all right well hey God bless you guys and um you know pray for Todd pray for the situation pray for the victims and uh uh pray for the church