foreign here with gambling Insider and I'm sitting here with Dr York Hoffman and uh running from the KSA good to meet you good to you thank you very much nice to meet you show going well so far yes some 50 minutes presentation and discussion on the stage uh give an update on some of the recent issues we are facing here in the Netherlands if you could give us an update on that would be okay I was just literally you know an update about the action that KSA has been taking recently to you know further regulations in in the country when I look back at the last six months to one year I think I could mention three issues one of course is the advertising masters of advertising the um the prohibition of using role models that was introduced last year the prohibition of targeting young adults and minors that has been a huge effort for us another one as it comes to supervision and enforcement is about the duty of care um we have seen that in too many cases in practice young people or older people lost within a week or in two weeks tens of thousands of euros creating huge problems without any efficient interventions or enough interventions so that is what we are now investigating in more General way we're making a report on that next month and um of course fighting illegality is also something that is always one of our key elements because this it doesn't illegal operators do not move out of the country because we have a legal market now so we always monitoring uh what legal illegal activity is targeted to Dutch consumers which is successful with such consumers and we have interventions we have fines to get them out absolutely I mean it's another things that York will ask you about an update from Germany as well and to see what's going on in relation obviously what the KSA is doing is that something's being followed typically in Germany or not so much thank you well we are now applying a new general our new regular regulation the interstate treaty I can say most of the licenses are granted and the industry is moving forwards we now need to know where we are it's very important to see how powerful is the license Market uh how successful is the generalization of Regulation and how competitive are we as licensed operators that's a challenge so I would say we have these issues as well marketing advertising is a big Topic in Germany too this is something where we can look at the Netherlands and see what what is what will your experience be I have a certain feeling not so good because I think your regulation is too restrictive but it's a political decision and something some things are different between these two jurisdictions one thing is you've got one regulatory body that can't spell authoritate and one experienced regulator this is a blessing in Germany we have 16 States still being involved in trying to give instructions trying to control the regulatory body which is the Gigi Ellen Halo they took over responsibility just half a year ago so we are on the beginning and we're going to assess the development and if you look cross-border I guess we will learn do's and don'ts and particularly be interested in dues and not so much the don'ts absolutely um I'm going back to the the Dutch Market with that one you know we're talking about the unregulated market as you just spoke about um it's something you're applying huge pressure on to get it you know out of the out of the sphere because you're obviously you want you know a regular Market that's what you want what's the update with that how you know how well is that going for you guys at the moment in order to push the unregulated market out of the market so to speak um the generalization rate now is above 90 percent so I think that it's quite successful when we started and we are infant Market only started in October 2021 so it's everything is new um we had a target of having a generalization above 85 percent 85 or more I must say we're now something like 90 92 percent so that is quite successful for now but of course that is not something stable you always have to be addressing illegal offering from where somewhere in the world um so what we do is Monitor all um I think often we have the 100 best visited websites from by Dutch consumers and then we target them um it was you know it was going into comments that Peter Paul De gush made in gambling Insider um about it being you know what is everybody said I was wondering if you have any kind of retorts to what he said I'm not aware what you said so he said that the gambling registration has succeeded not failed um in the Netherlands despite what some politicians say oh sorry yes well I think it's quite too early to say whether the opening of the market the legalization is a full success or a full failure I don't think it's a full failure because then we would not have that generalization we have seen some very good practices we have our worries as I said worries about the uh duty of care the advertising that Gate gave a lot of disturbance in the country that force a political quick reaction might be later on to say but it might be too quick we don't know but it's a politics to have those decisions absolutely and um in 2024 we have a full-fledged evaluation of opening of the market of the remote gambling market and then we can have more um comprehensive view on what has happening has been happening First Years as I said now we are um in in a way we have seen that there are many interventions in politics and many new regulations in an infant Market phase and that's again well it's a reality and we are preparing now for more Investments for sorry investigations I must say to have Improvement of compliance on that front as you can say you don't invest in that market [Laughter] from the outside looking in um you know what does the Dutch Market how do you see that you know the Netherlands Market um versus the German Market or yeah another mature Market in Europe I think there's something we have in common it took a long time until regulation started and you were first compared to Germany Congratulations by the way and so we can always monitor what's going on I think it's a tough regulation what I like was that regulation is there is a dialogue between the industry and the regulator that works that's something we are going to build up in Germany too and I'm confident this will be an achievement and we this is always also now in practice in a certain way you're very tough in terms of monitoring black market operations in setting up fees fines of course fines of course huge fines uh like in other European jurisdictions Germany is monitoring this as well considering things for us it's one of the biggest challenges to compete to to to to combat the illegal Market the black market operators in particular in that sort of casino type games which we call slot machines virtual slot machines that's still a strong black market and you see enforcement tools probably are not sufficient enough so I like the idea of monitoring let's say sort of I.T based digitally see the traffic where are people playing there's so many estimations what is channelization rate in Germany you could well see the scope between 50 and 95 percent being discussed but there is no solid base of evaluation you can only do this as you know where our players playing even the traffic or the turnover of certain operators will not give you some indication there was one one was saying well we look at the the tax paid by sports betting operators and we see 95 percent of of sports betting tax being paid comes from licensed market so probably it's only five not licensed operators that is correct but what about those who don't care about it I'm not operating with don't pay taxes so whatever you say it needs to be questions that's why I think monitoring the real traffic is a real good indication for Germany we will realize as too many people playing outside and the best regulation cannot protect players if the players are not playing within that environment that's our challenge so again I know that our Regulators talk to running in this team and I think that's a very good relationship because not only because we're neighbors because it's experience and the same kind culture in the past which we are going to develop further into the next level the Next Generation and how do you view the German market and how that's coming at the moment even from the outside perspective on their Market from the outside perspective I think it's uh for me I think it's hard to see what has happened because it's only opening for a very recent um I have been in Berlin last year uh speaking at a gaming in Germany conference also bringing in some experiences from the from the Netherlands and our Market opening what I see is that a the new regulator is very eager to learn and looking out in the outside world being in contact with the Dutch regulator being in contact with French regulate and others which I think is very important cooperation between Regulators is very important and I think like York said Germany in a certain sense has the same culture as it comes to to a gambling a reluctant culture as it comes to gambling and eye gaming but it's one difficult thing from my perspective and see that I there is not one Federal legislation there's not one Federal regulator with his strong mandate for the whole territory of Germany and I think that makes it quite hard to be a very effective and strong and Swift operating regulator but we have to see how it works out absolutely and you touch on it there's like you say it was a um the market it was reluctant Market why do you think why do you think that is why do you think that both countries have as you described a reluctant kind of market so to speak it's because of the conditions the interstate treaty is nothing else than a compromise and it's a treaty it's not a law it's a treaty because the 16 Prime Ministers of all 16 German states which we call Landers signed it and there were in these days when they negotiated they were well States in Germany who were more than reluctant versus Regulation and Licensing regime so you can see all these disadvantages in regulations so it is full of restrictions which in my view are not Mindful and not supporting a licensed Market that's why it's to the benefit of Black Market operators and there is leeway in many provisions and many Provisions need clarification so a powerful I wouldn't say a strong a powerful regulator can take its discretion say well I understand this provision this is where we have to go to even if there's a left and the right way going straight but if the this Authority has always to reflect how the lenders are assessing its development its decision making or even giving instructions saying yes or no or this the delaying things that makes it hard and so far your structure is so much better I can agree more with you to have one operate one one regulator and give them the power to make decisions and to give guidance to the industry you can raise questions you get an answer but you're not fully aware you're not fully sure whether this answer will remain binding because there is political background which is not good for the player protection because if everything is uncertain Regulators are also reluctant not regulated sorry operators are also reluctant in moving forward because there's uncertainty including investment and other things listen guys I know you've got a busy uh schedule here today thank you so much for joining us we really appreciate it thank you thank you very much thank you very much signing off