Transcript for:
Insights from Dr. Tirta Mandira Hudhi's Interview

GITA WIRJAWAN: Hello, friends, today we have with us Dr. Tirta Mandira Hudhi. Tirta, thank you so much for coming. TIRTA MANDIRA HUDHI: I’m honored to be invited, Mr. Gita. I usually just watch your lectures online, but now I get to be here in person. You're a very smart guy. Tell us what it was like growing up in Solo your background, so people can understand how you became such a reader and how you developed your thinking. One privilege I used to deny, I used to deny it. Back in 2014, I would always say I came from nothing. But I started accepting the truth around 2021, 2022. And my biggest privilege was education. My parents were both educators. My dad was an economics lecturer at a university in Indonesia. But due to income needs, he had to pivot for financial reasons he left his job after 9 years and became a banker at a rural bank in Central Java. My dad is a native Javanese, from Sambi, Boyolali. Our family name is Wongsodimejo. His name is Sutarjo, you can check, it’s real. Another privilege. in 1998, my dad was invited by President Habibie to a meeting as an economic expert to discuss the financial crisis. He was that serious about math and finance. That’s something I never really shared before, but there’s a photo. My mom, on the other hand, studied agricultural science. She’s of Chinese descent, from Wotgandul in Semarang. She graduated cum laude in agriculture from UNS. She used to be a teaching assistant, but because her younger siblings needed financial support, she switched careers and became a banker. Imagine that. From science to banking. Back in elementary and middle school, I thought that was normal. But in high school, once science and social studies were separated I realized it wasn’t. So, yeah, she graduated in agriculture, actual agriculture, not agricultural technology, from UNS, and ended up in banking. Both my parents were born in 1958 and met at a library. So they were both book lovers. -Which city? -Surakarta. They met in college and eventually had me. They only wanted one child. Because my dad calculated it- -Barely enough? -Yes, They were middle-class. Not poor, not rich—right in the middle. My dad was the second child, my mom the eldest. My dad’s Muslim, my mom’s Catholic. And I don’t know— don’t want to know, I don't know how they got married. That’s their business. So yeah, that’s my privilege. My dad had an entire room just for books—a full library. Back in elementary school, he once gave me a thesis to read. That’s where my reading habit started. My dad began talking to me seriously when I was in first grade. He always said, “I’m a middle-class guy. I sent you to a Catholic school, Kanisius Keprabon 2, where your classmates are all from rich families, kids of entrepreneurs. I can’t afford tutoring until you’re in third grade, so the only thing you can do is study hard. What brings pride to our family is your academic success.” That’s what he told me. You can ask him directly, he’s still working, still a banker, refuses to retire. He says retiring would make him senile. His words. And that kind of talk shaped me to believe that academics were everything that it was the way to bring honor to the family. I was raised like that from first grade. I ranked 9th at first—then 9th, 7th, 6th. By second grade I started understanding, and I begged my mom for a tutor. Eventually they gave in and got me one tutor—for math. By second grade I ranked 2nd. From third grade until high school, I was always ranked 1st. A big reason for that was being able to go to my parents’ workplaces. Since we were middle-class and couldn’t afford a maid, after school I was picked up by a pedicab driver named Mr. Nuri. I still remember everyone who helped me, his name was Mr. Nuri. Shoutout to him. He’d take me to my mom’s office at Pasar Legi. My mom was a banker at a small branch of a private bank in Pasar Gede. That’s where I’d do homework and math exercises, hang out with her coworkers, and observe what she did. So yeah, companies that allow employees to bring their kids to work end up raising kids like me. Shoutout to those kinds of directors. My mom’s boss allowed it. “It’s okay, bring your child.” So I’d spend about three hours in that office—from 1 PM to 4 PM. After that, I went to tutoring, then headed home. I was fully independent from second to fifth grade. My parents gave me clear goals. I didn’t even own a Tamagotchi. If I wanted a PlayStation 1, I had to hit a certain rank. My dad never broke his promises. He always said, “These goals aren’t for me, they’re for you." "If you’re not smart, you won’t get into college. And the only way to lift our family’s dignity is through academic achievement.” And I internalized that. By fifth grade, I was representing my school as a model student. Back in elementary, there were contests like the Olympiads and model student competitions. Since I was ranked 1st from grade 4 to 5, We only switched to semesters in grade 5. I was born in 1991, and before that, we had trimesters. Anyway, I entered the model student competition. I still remember—I had two teachers: Mrs. Ati and Mr. Suryo. Mr. Suryo was the math teacher. I never forget my teachers. I ended up 3rd place in the city. 1st place was from SD 15, 2nd from SD 16, those were the famous schools in Surakarta. 3rd place was me, from SD Kanisius. At that time, I really believed that being smart would get me scholarships. Dunkin Donuts used to give free donuts to the top 3 students. No joke. I loved that program. - Sugar rush. -I didn’t realize that at the time, I was just a kid. Because I stayed in the top 3 from grades 1 to 6, I got a one-year scholarship to Pangudi Luhur Bintang Laut for junior high. That school’s on Slamet Riyadi. In 7th grade, I ranked 1st again. -I also went to Pangudi Luhur for junior high, in Jakarta, Haji Nawi. -Ah, then you’re familiar. In 8th grade, I ranked 1st again. So yeah, during that early phase, Hope it’s okay I’m going into detail. Don’t want netizens to get the wrong idea. In that early phase, my parents gave me clear academic targets starting at age 7. But there was a downside, which I’ll get into later. In junior high, I could still handle it. In 8th grade, I joined three Olympiads, math, science, and English. Thanks to those, I was offered a scholarship to Saint Joseph College. I passed, but didn’t go, living expenses were too high. I also got a scholarship to Regina Pacis, a year later at the Ursuline school in Solo. There, I kept ranking 1st, and eventually made it into the top science class, IPA 1. I didn’t join the international standard school (RSBI)— it didn’t exist for my generation. RSBI came after me. That’s when the conflict with my parents started. The downside of all those targets hit in high school, I was burned out. I rebelled. I hated it. I felt like I was studying just to please my parents. So I acted out. Got in trouble. I still remember my principal, Sister Floren. She called my parents in all the time. So there I was, in the top class, academically gifted but with a bad attitude. Always in trouble, fighting with teachers, fighting with classmates, constantly getting called in. Until one day, my dad had a serious talk with me. He said, “It’s up to you. Whatever you want to be, that’s your choice.” Then I ran away from home to a friend’s place. And what did my friend do? Took me to Gramedia. So dumb, honestly. Sorry, Mr. Gita. He took me to Gramedia, and that’s where I read a book called A Child Called ‘It’. The author was Dave Pelzer. I still remember the author. There were three books. In the third one, I read about this kid who was abused by his mom, then in the second book, he survived, and in the third, he forgave her. It was wild. You can read the book by Dave Pelzer, A Child Called It. It’s a trilogy. In the third book, he becomes a pilot and forgives his mom. Because yeah, she was still his mom. That’s when I started to realize that the reason my parents set targets for me was for my own good, not theirs. In 9th grade, I joined Ganesha Operation (a tutoring center). That was my first time doing tutoring and meeting kids from public schools. That’s when my point of view started to shift. Turns out they were really open-minded, and they were surprised, “Why are you in tutoring?” “Aren’t Chinese kids in Solo usually not into tutoring?” That’s what they actually said, it was hilarious. The GO center was in Kota Barat. I joined because I was curious, what’s the national exam really like? Eventually, I chose the GO class that made me think, “Okay, maybe I do want to go to a public university.” There was a three-way debate. My dad went to UNS, my mom went to UNS. They were worried about me going to a public university because I’m Chinese. I argued with my dad, “Dad, you’re indigenous and you got married just fine.” He went silent. Sorry, Dad. That was the first time I talked back, and my dad didn’t get mad. “Okay, if you want to go to a public university, it has to be a good one.” Okay. So I set a goal, my first choice was the med school at Undip. -Masya Allah. -Undip med school, but not through, -Why medicine? -Because my mom’s from Semarang. -But why medicine specifically? -Because I wanted to aim high. In SNMPTN or other entrance exams, medicine always had the highest cutoff. -Cool. -My ego was through the roof. I needed validation. As an only child whose life revolved around academics, I constantly needed such validation. -Did that come from within, or was it more about the culture at home? -More the family culture. My dad and mom always drilled into me -That you had to be the best? -Always the best, because only then would people respect you. That was one of our family values. -More from your dad or your mom? -For academics, definitely my dad. He was all about that. My mom was more like, “It’s okay,” laid-back, accepting. But my dad was strict. “If you’re not the best, you’re wasting your potential. You’ve got a brain , use it. You’re my only child, so you’ve got to be the best.” At the very least, if not academically, then in something else. So I was like, “Alright, I’ll be the best,” and that brainwashing led me to pick medicine. I applied to three places: Undip, UGM, ITB. Electrical engineering was the hardest. I got accepted into Undip, not through SNMPTN, but through the independent exam, which had 120 Olympic-level questions. I was at fourth place, and I got in. We found out from my mom’s friend, who turned out to be a professor of agriculture at Undip. He let us know I got accepted, and I was thrilled. Meanwhile, my school Ursulin had no connection with UGM. So I had to submit the documents to UGM myself. In public schools, they have a B2B channel where students submit their documents together through the school. But since Ursulin didn’t have that kind of access to UGM, I had to carry the documents around myself. I wanted UGM not because it was better, no, it was the buildings. The Radiopoetro building, I still remember it. I went there for a math Olympiad in 12th grade, my last competition in the first semester. I was blown away by UGM’s campus. I chose Undip med school because my mom’s from Semarang. But I applied to UGM because I had that Olympiad there. I didn’t win. I lost to a kid from Padmanaba, SMA 3 Jogja. Badly. I was ranked 6th, he was 2nd. Didn’t make it to the provincial level. I still remember, math Olympiad. I lost by two questions. So frustrating. But the building was awesome. So I thought, “Wow, this place is cool, Radiopoetro, just like this.” And in the end, I applied and got into UGM. But I wasn’t satisfied, I also applied to Undip med school and to ITB. I wanted to test myself. I also got accepted to seven private universities. Flexing. My ego was still huge. Getting into med school was the third big turning point in my life, because once I was there, I realized there were way more smart people than I expected. I met kids from Insan Cendekia, they were next level smart. The Incen kids. And the TN kids. They had those cropped haircuts. The girls had short hair, and they were insanely smart. I used to think Tirta was the only one, Young Tirta with a 4.0 GPA until the 4th semester. Nope. 60% of FK students had all A’s for four semesters at UGM. And the most intense competition, I can name the top five schools. -Masya Allah. -TN, Incen, SMA 8 Jakarta, 3 Semarang, 3 Jogja. Then the ones who would stir things up in class discussions, 3 Bandung, then 70 Jakarta, Labschool Rawamangun, 1 Teladan, and another one I forgot, I think from Surabaya. So the culture in public universities completely changed me. Before, my parents set the expectations. I finished high school thinking smart people always succeed. Because like I said earlier, my dad brainwashed me to believe that smart people always win in life, so I had to be smart to raise my quality of life. Then I’d be successful. And in high school, “success” meant a lot of money and such. But in med school, there were just so many smart people, and I hit a reality check: doctors don’t make money right away. 3.5 years of theory, now it’s 4 years by regulation. 2 years of clinical work, 1 year of internship, then 2 years of work, 5 years for specialization, that’s 14 years total. -Wow. -In semester 3, I hit a wall. So mentally, honestly, even before Gen Z was talking about it, I was already burned out. “This is bad.” That’s when I started to be more realistic, having talks like this with my parents. The third core value in our family. First, academics. Second, having goals, always being goal-oriented. Third was openness. We’d have three-way discussions every month. I’d speak honestly, “Dad’s 50, Mom’s 50, in five years you’ll retire. Your pension could end up paying for my specialization, which costs 15 million per semester. No income for five years. I’m their only child, and that’s assuming I succeed. If I don’t earn my own money, our family finances could collapse.” -Wow. -That’s when I got real. I learned to be realistic in med school. And then I made a big decision. In semester 2, I started selling stuff on Kaskus. I sold Power Balance, Blackberries, and it worked. Sorry, they were illegal Blackberries, I sold those back then. Got them from a reseller, packaged them myself, and used the money to save up for tuition. UGM tuition was cheap, just 2.2 million per semester. I still remember. It wasn’t a legal entity yet back then, so it was still subsidized. So I paid the 2.2 million myself, even my rent. My parents only gave me pocket money. Eventually, by semester 5, I was covering everything on my own. Young guy, 4.0 GPA, earning his own money. My ego was massive. Then it got crushed. I applied four times to be a teaching assistant and got rejected every time. Biochem, rejected. Pathology anatomy, rejected. Anatomy, rejected. Totally crushed. My ego was shattered again. What always crushed my ego was being around smart people. When I’m around less smart people, my ego gets huge , every time. And eventually, with all that, I realized I’m an only child. I had to make money. I dove into retail. Selling shoes, dealing with people. And then I met my professors. And again, it was teachers who changed me. I met three of them: The late Prof. Iwan , he contributed a lot during COVID. He also helped get Novomix covered by BPJS, I think. Second was Dr. Denny , he’s a professor of physiology at UGM. Third was Dr. Gofir, a neurologist. All three told me the same thing: “You’ve worked in sales, you’ve done retail, met lots of people. Doctors take care of patients, so who takes care of doctors?” That hit me. Because to doctors, the coolest thing is holding a scalpel. I loved emergency cases. I loved general surgery, digestive surgery, orthopedics, anything involving a scalpel, I loved the adrenaline. And for doctors, holding a scalpel is the sexiest thing. Like, seriously cool. But all three professors told me to go into management. That made me think. I graduated with a 3.8 GPA. Internship. Loved the ER. After finishing my internship in 2016, someone gave me advice, and I made the biggest decision, to bury my dream, man. The dream of becoming an orthopedic surgeon, a surgeon in general, I buried it in 2016. Because I saw my dad aging and I asked him seriously, like if Mr. Gita here were my dad , and I’m the kind of guy who can’t sugarcoat things, I asked, “Dad, if your savings are used for my specialization, does that mean you and Mom won’t get to enjoy retirement?” No. Then I said, "I can earn money now, my life is settled here. Why don’t you just spend the money to visit countries you’ve never been to, because you deserve that. I’ll make my own money." At first, they couldn’t accept it. We didn’t argue, but it was my mom who accepted it. So I got my mom’s blessing. "It’s okay if you’re happy earning money, that’s fine. I’ll talk to your dad." So in 2016, I started practicing until 2017. In 2017, I buried my dream of becoming a practicing doctor. Because I realized that if I stayed selfish about pursuing specialization, I wouldn’t give my dad who was already 58 the chance to enjoy his life. My dad was 58 at that time, nearing 60, already retired. If I used up his savings for my specialization and specialists don’t get paid, you know I’d become a specialist, but my dad would never get to go abroad in his whole life. He once tried to get a scholarship, I don’t know what it was called back then, but his TOEFL score was only 200. My dad couldn’t speak English. Bad. Super thick accent. Even worse than mine. His simple past tense was terrible. He never traveled abroad in his life. The first time my dad ever went overseas was when he was 60. If I had been selfish about my specialization, I would’ve become one, but my dad would never have traveled. I had to be realistic. I’m not a sandwich generation, but they’re already elderly, and they’ve never even seen another country in their whole lives? My dad still doesn’t dare go on a hajj pilgrimage because he’s afraid the money will run out. In the end, I’m the one paying for it hopefully this year, if not next year. After convincing him. -But at the time, did it never cross your mind to look for a scholarship or something like that? -No, because I was embarrassed by my friends. I had three friends. In med school, that’s where my ego got hit the most. Med school changed everything. Getting into a state university changed me. I met someone named Dr. Sunardi, sir. You could invite him here. Dr. Sunardi’s dad was a gravekeeper. He has a PhD though. He came from a poor background. Got all his scholarships. To make ends meet, he used to summarize lectures, then sell the summaries in a magazine. Summaries. He sold them to other students so they didn’t have to print slides just read the summaries he made. He graduated late because he joined research projects so he could keep getting paid. I met a lot of people whose parents were worse off than mine. I’d feel ashamed to take a scholarship while my friends well, it’s like this: my parents could still afford things, and I could still earn money. But my friends’ parents were in worse shape financially. If I forced my ego at that time, I’d feel like I was taking someone else’s opportunity. That was a dilemma for me. So I decided, I think I can still make it on my own. Earn my own money. That’s why I never dared to take a scholarship, even until now. Because I still feel, “I can still afford it myself.” So because I was making money, I buried my dream and focused on managing people. When I turned 25, that was my fourth big change. I got famous. Something I never imagined. By the time I was 26, I started getting invited to seminars in Jogja because my shoe cleaning business was booming. And I was a doctor, so I got invited to universities. My Instagram hit 100,000 followers. Instagram became active in 2013, and I started personal branding in 2017. My ego was high. By 2020, I became the “dr. Tirta” that Mr. Gita knows, all is wrong in my eyes. Why did I think everyone was wrong? Maybe netizens or even Mr. Gita, hearing me ramble, would think, “Oh this kid’s never really struggled in life.” True. I was used to being number one. I was always number one. I was an only child. I got into med school easily, could earn money, I could sell. But I got hit hard because of fame and my inability to take advice from people on social media. In 2020, I think back now, and that version of Dr. Tirta was really arrogant. And I only realized it because of a life event. I was cycling far, met someone who helped me, I gave him money and he threw the money. “Not everything is about money, bro. I helped you because we’re on the same road. Your bike is more expensive than my truck, but what good is it on the road?” I went silent. That happened twice in Indramayu. Hit me hard. While riding from Indramayu to Simpang Jomin, I thought, “Man, I’ve been such an idiot all this time.” I changed because I met a truck driver whose name I still don’t know helped me for 50 kilometers. He said he helped me because he thought I was a ghost. I was cycling, he lit me up from behind with his headlights. Then he said, “I’ll keep the lights on for 50 kilometers, my house is ahead, but don’t give me money. I don’t need your money. We’re on the same road, we should help each other.” I still remember his words, “People who live on the road must help each other.” That shattered me. Cracked my ego. When I got home, I still remember, it was March 2022, I immediately registered for ITB. Something I never liked, management. I needed acceptance, sir. My lecturers, the late Prof. Iwan, dr. Gofir, and dr. Denny had been asking me to focus on managing people since 2016. I didn’t listen to them for six years, and it takes me 6 years to finish the study. At ITB, I met more brilliant people. I met two generations at once, mentors like Bu Nila, Bu Yuni Ros, Pak Yos. I’m the type of person who always looks up to mentors. And I met Gen Zs who are just unbelievably smart. Some were 24 and already had a master’s degree. Like, how? Their GPA in undergrad was 3.9, and I asked, “Why do you want to get a master’s?” “Because I still feel dumb at work.” “You’ve only worked a year and you already feel dumb and go back to school?” “Yeah, my dad can afford it.” There I was, meeting two different generations. I changed again, I evolved. Turns out smart people never stop reading, even after getting degrees. The difference between smart and intelligent people is if someone thinks they’ve made it because they have a degree and they stop reading, that’s where their knowledge stops. My mentors were willing to listen to me. They saw me as a resource. I was shocked. I was still in my master’s program. That’s when I realized oh, this is what separates people who go on to do a PhD. I still remember my lecturer, her name’s Bu Nila. She’s amazing. Same age as me, already a PhD by 27. She said to me, “Tirta, don’t get cocky, okay? I’m gonna show off, Tirta. Come on guys, Tirta is 31, owns a store, right? I got my PhD at 27. Where were you at 27, Tirta?” Oof, I surrendered. They teased me, but I loved it because there were people smarter than me. And smart people always explain things so clearly. Thanks to Bu Nila, I became super focused on data. I don’t want to say anything I don’t fully understand anymore. Because of her, I now only focus on three things: health, knowledge, and business & marketing strategic analysis because I really love those fields. From Bu Yuni Ros, who taught HR, She instilled in me the idea that if you stop learning, your career is over. Knowledge is everything. Sure, you’re a doctor, but if you learn this well, you can get two things. In healthcare, you have the foundation, but every doctor manages patients you can manage the doctors. That hit me hard. Finally, from Pak Yos he said to me, “Money spent on education is not an expense, it’s an investment.” I graduated from ITB with a GPA of 3.9. I was supposed to give the graduation speech as the most inspiring graduate. I still remember, it was Pak Yos who chose me to speak at Hotel Intercontinental Bandung. But I didn’t want to speak, sir. Because I told him, there's still someone- Here’s where my ego finally softened “Tirta, you’re speaking, you’ll represent the graduates.” The reason I refused was... I have the chat history where I declined to represent the graduates. Because I felt there was someone smarter than me, his name is Nelson. He spoke seven languages, had a GPA of 3.99, sir. At ITB I felt he was more worthy than me to represent the students. And they accepted that. So from that long story I’ll sum it up into five things. My parents instilled the importance of setting targets, that without knowledge, you won’t understand the world. And knowledge can elevate your status, that’s true, but it doesn’t guarantee success. In high school I learned to control my ego. I hit rock bottom, fought with my parents, came to understand that the targets they gave me were actually targets meant for myself, and in high school I felt arrogant. In college I realized that reality doesn’t align with what my parents had taught me, that knowledge is indeed important but it doesn’t guarantee you’ll be 100% successful. Because you don’t have the same privileges as your other friends. You’re an only child, you can’t choose where you’re born. So you have to sacrifice your dreams for something bigger. During the pandemic I learned about popularity. Turns out, smart and successful people who can’t control their egos will fall apart. And their egos will lose to people who may not be academically smart, but through experience, they’re more important. So this fourth lesson I really learned. We can learn not only from smart people, not only from the wealthy. We can also learn from people who may be below us financially, but above us in terms of wisdom. That was the fourth thing I learned, from a truck driver who gave me a lecture. At ITB I learned that life-long learning is everything. Which brings us back to number one. So these five phases shaped who I am now and maybe at 40 I’ll learn something new. It’s from these things that I believe Without my parents, there wouldn’t be the version of me today, because my parents burdened me with targets. Without my rebellious self in high school I wouldn’t be who I am today. Because I knew my ego was huge in high school, I was a rebel, defiant, opposed everything. Without my professors at FK UGM, I wouldn’t have learned how to face reality. Without the life event that happened while cycling, my ego wouldn’t have crumbled for the second time. So my ego fell twice, once in high school, and recently. Without my teacher at ITB I wouldn’t understand books. And maybe there will be other life events. This is the culture that I think exists in my family. Open to knowledge. Knowledge can come from books, professors, other experiences, self experiences, articles, papers. People who don’t keep learning are missing out. Even if we don’t grow financially, with knowledge we’ll tend to make better decisions. And these five things are what made me who I am. Yes, my IQ is 148. My IQ is right there. I’ve taken the test three times. 141, 142, 148. My TPA score is over 600. But that means nothing if it’s not put into real action. I’d just be a smart person doing nothing. That’s why I said to my father, If I don’t use social media for health education in normal language or to share my views on education, then people will keep thinking doctors are just like that—wearing white coats, strict. They’ll think that healthcare is expensive. If my dad weren’t a professor, I wouldn’t be like this, Sir. -There are a few points I want to respond to, but first I’d like to share a few data points. Based on your experience, what do you think can be done to raise the average IQ of Indonesians? Our IQ, if I’m not mistaken, is 78.9. Secondly, what makes a lot of people in Indonesia anxious is our PISA score. PISA measures STEM and literacy skills of 15-year-old students. Indonesia’s score ranks 69 out of 81 countries. Singapore is number one. China has now fallen behind Singapore, down to number two. Now, third, I’m listening to you, and you’re clearly a very confident storyteller, and I often talk about the importance of all of us in Indonesia being better storytellers. -Oh yes, I remember your lecture, Mr. Gita. -In the international community we’re not well known. The ones more recognized are Indians as storytellers. In Southeast Asia, maybe Singaporeans. I think the positive attributes you have can really be spread more widely. First, to help raise IQ. Second, hopefully boost our PISA score. From 69th, maybe even to number one, or number five, or at least top 10. In Southeast Asia, only two countries are above the global average: Singapore and Vietnam. -Oh really? Vietnam is catching up, I read that recently. -Yeah, so like Malaysia, Thailand, the Philippines, Indonesia, all below the global average. The global average PISA score is 488 if I’m not mistaken. Now, third, how do we become storytellers like you? -This question sounds like it’s from a professor. -But yeah, I’ve been teaching for quite a while. But when I was a student, I thought it was harder, -It’s harder being a professor. -It turns out teaching is much harder, the prep and everything. but you learn more from your students than they learn from you, in my opinion. That’s real. Oh, so what my professor, Bu Nila, said was true, huh? -Absolutely, I really relate to that. -She said learning doesn’t have to come from professors. I also learn from listening to all of you. -I completely, completely agree with that. -So, to raise IQ I think the challenge comes in three parts: ourselves, our environment, and lastly, the government. First, I say it starts with us, personally, it’s about habits. We lack the habit of reading. We lack reading habits because we lack libraries in schools. And reading is associated with academic books. In my opinion not others’, just mine, disclaimer The books that should be read from an early age are not academic books at home, but books of knowledge. Because that’s what I do with my child. And reading books today doesn’t have to mean physical books, there are e-books. Give them books on an iPad, not just YouTube. If the kid doesn’t want to read, then give them scientific content on YouTube. Because books tell stories. If they’re still in kindergarten, then comics or fairy tales. The more often they read, what’s developed in their minds is continuity in critical thinking. Why did this happen? It happened because of this. Why are our kids like this? Because they’re used to memorizing, not thinking critically. That’s what I’ve criticized from the beginning. My privilege at Kanisius Elementary, a Catholic school, was that I wasn’t told to memorize. I was told to understand. Shoutout to Kanisius, Pangudi Luhur, and Ursulin. Not saying others don’t do this. Among Muslims there’s Muhammadiyah and Insan Cendekia. The folks at Insan Cendekia are extraordinary. All of them are geniuses. So from what I see, proper high schools, be they Islamic, Catholic, Christian, or whatever, they make students understand, not just memorize. That’s number one. Environment. Now this part, my privilege is that my parents were educators. -That’s amazing. That’s something I can’t expect from every family. So this second point may or may not be doable. But I’ll offer this suggestion to parents with Gen Alpha kids. That means parents in my generation, or your kid’s generation maybe. Those born after 2010. Or, after 2014. So now they’re around 10 years old. Talk to them. Why? Because your kids— just because they’re children doesn’t mean they don’t understand. The difference between kids and adults in medical terms is kids can’t respond yet, but they understand what we say. So if you talk to a baby, they understand what you’re saying. And children are copycats of those closest to them. So if your kid swears a lot, it clearly comes from the parents. If the parents aren’t around, then it’s their circle. Kids are copycats. So, talk to them, and because kids are super curious, let them know where your money comes from. What changed me in elementary school was when my parents took me to their office. So I knew what my mom and dad were doing to earn money. That’s what I’m doing with my kid now. I take my kid to the office, "Look, this is what your dad does." "When I’m at the hospital, this is how doctors work." And eventually it helps them understand that life requires money. And the kid will feel respected because you talk to them often. So they learn vocabulary from their parents. Now, what I see in some parenting styles, "Have you studied? Do your homework!" "Ugh, you’re so annoying! Dad’s tired from work, be quiet!" So kids don’t get a chance to talk. What’s the result? When they grow up, they won’t have the courage to speak up. That’s why not all Indonesian kids become storytellers, Sir. Because even in their own families they aren’t given the chance to talk. They say a word and it’s, "Always arguing! You’re a disrespectful child!" When they were just starting to talk... So kids, because they still can't tell right from wrong, they're very vocal, innocent. It happened to my friend's kid "Is this the uncle who always says weird stuff, like 'jancok-jancok' on YouTube?" Whoa, dang. After that, I started covering my tattoos because my friends’ kids were starting to criticize me. It showed up on TikTok, "Mr. Tirta, Mr. Tirta, your hair used to be pink." I didn’t think much of it before, but turns out I was influencing them. So, that’s number two. Number three, if we’ve already got number one, which is the habit of reading, family environment, and government. What’s most important from the government is to change our education system not just chasing rankings or whatever, but making sure education quality is equal across the board. Whatever the method, I believe the experts know, PhDs, policymakers. But from my experience giving guest lectures, the quality of education is still all over the place. As long as we’re still comparing public and private schools, Java and Papua, the gap of knowledge is going to be huge. If we want to move forward as a country and aim for the golden generation in 2045, the budget should be used to level out education quality from Sabang to Merauke. That’s it, problem solved. But it’s a long journey. Education takes at least 12 years, so let’s say President A gets elected and their focus is human capital, the results will only be seen 12 years later when those kids graduate high school. The one started won’t see the outcome. It’ll be the president after them who reaps the benefits. If they serve two terms, 10 years, they’ll still be the ones building the foundation. If we focus on human capital, the results will be clear. Look at Japan, Korea, Finland, Europe, they invested in people. But the impact isn’t immediate. It takes 12 years. Now, do we have the guts to stay committed to that? That’s what I talk about with friends in politics. It’s hard, because it’s not something you can turn into a quick campaign promise. People judge a leader’s success by what they can see. And education? It’s not visible. Tangible projects are easier to sell, you can touch them, see them. Education is an intangible investment. You’ll only see the results 12 years down the road. Now, if point number two is met, but point three isn’t, you’ll have a mismatch. Some people will have an IQ of 140, others will be down at 50. That’s what happened. Why is the Indonesian average 78? Because there are only a few outliers. So the smart ones are the outliers. Those at the bottom are scoring 50, 70. Because they don’t know what to do, and the one who can make that happen is the government. Not just the minister, but the leader. The leader, down to the governor, then to the regent, the mayor there has to be a clear roadmap. “Come on, let’s sit down together.” “If we don’t standardize education, it looks like we’ll collapse in 2036. We’ll topple over. So, what do we do? Okay, we’re from different parties, bro. Come on, I have a roadmap, but this roadmap can’t be implemented I’m using youth slang here, Sir this roadmap can’t be implemented by me, it’ll be harvested by you. Whoever wins. But let’s align first, shall we? Let’s run this roadmap together.” Every time we change leaders, the roadmap changes. Every time leadership changes, the education policy changes, it's confusing. PBDB just changed yesterday, then it’ll change again, and again. And that constant change is what stresses the teachers out. And we haven’t even talked about teacher salaries, contract teachers, and so on. We’re only talking about the roadmap. So in my view, as someone who’s benefitted from education, as someone with that privilege, this is what I think will raise our PISA scores and national IQ. -So, how can we improve storytelling skill? -That’s the second point. Parents of Gen Alpha, let your kids talk. They’re not being disrespectful, they’re not talking back. My dad gave me the freedom o express my opinions no matter how weird they were and he never shut me down. He debated me. Sometimes our discussions would go on for four hours. What was the longest argument about? Buying a car. In my third year of high school, my dad wanted to buy a Grand Livina. I said no, because it only seats five. “But why?” Well, my dad loved going on road trips, so I told him, “Get a 2000cc car instead.” We went back and forth for a month. In the end, we got an Innova, which was perfect. It’s not that the Livina was bad, but the point is, after a whole month of debating, my dad considered my opinion. As a kid, I felt heard. Kids stop telling stories when they feel like no one listens. So eventually, they shut down that storytelling skill as they grow older. And when they speak in public, they show this typical trait, The typical trait of a child who's never been given a chance to speak "Come on, speak in public!" They go, "Uh... um... well... uh..." That means, in their family, they were never given the space to express themselves. Most of the time, parents say things like, "Oh please, what do kids know?" That’s super annoying. People say, "What do you know, you're just a kid!" Or "You’re too young to be part of adult conversations!" Or "Don’t argue, just listen!" But parents aren’t always smarter. What if the child is a prodigy? -That’s how you kill their potential. -Yeah, so if you as a parent don’t give your child the space to speak, they’ll never grow up becoming a storyteller unless they’re lucky enough to find an environment that supports them. Like if they’re in a community that pushes them to speak, they might end up becoming a skilled storyteller. That’s why, when I look around, I start noticing patterns, Indonesia’s notable public figures tend to have fathers with at least a master’s or doctoral degree. -Let me add to that, If we look at the numbers in Indonesia, 88% of households are led by someone without a bachelor’s degree. 93% of eligible voters don’t hold a university degree. So if we’re hoping that, like you just said earlier, the home ecosystem when 88% of heads of households never went to college, they likely don’t even have a clear idea of what meaningful education looks like. It’s tough to expect a culture of reading, a culture of storytelling, to grow under those conditions. That’s why I think, this is just based on my intuition, maybe the only way to disrupt education is through schools. And in schools, we must make sure that the teachers are high-quality. -Agree. -But too often, we focus on curriculum, or on technology, and not enough—sorry to say— on teacher quality. I truly believe that if a teacher is a great storyteller, even if they don’t fully understand physics, they’re more likely to inspire students to become physicists. Compared to someone who does understand physics, but can’t tell a good story. -Exactly. There are smart people who can’t teach, but there are ordinary people who can teach so well that they make their students brilliant. -I can name some of my own teachers in 9th grade, in middle and high school. They didn’t always fully master the subject, but they were amazing storytellers. They sparked imagination— more than just memorization. I agree with you. Memorizing isn’t the goal. Imagination is what really matters. Looking forward, if we want to become a great nation, then schools must* highlight the importance of high-quality educators. Because many homes won’t be like yours. - Exactly. That’s privilege. -Where the parents expose their kids to workspaces, so you understand business. Or they push you to debate, to argue constructively. But most families don’t do that. -Yeah, which is why I fully agree with you, Mr. Gita. That’s the privilege I had. -Yes. -I completely agree. School is key. There’s a viral take on TikTok that said, “School is just unemployment with style (college).” But in truth, school doesn’t make us smart, school trains us how to think. And I really agree, a decent school is determined by teacher quality, and teacher quality is determined by salary. And here’s where we’re stuck in a vicious cycle. If we want quality teachers, we have to raise their salaries, so that they know, “Oh wow, being a teacher actually pays well.” That’s the key difference between us and developed countries. Teachers and lecturers there earn big salaries. I think it’s a chicken-and-egg situation. -Exactly. -Do we raise salaries first, or do we look for quality teachers first? “Can we do both at once, Doc?” But developing quality teachers takes time. That’s the chicken-and-egg problem. -I think salaries must be raised first. - Okay. I’m not entirely sure. - Mistakes in recruitment will still happen, even though the salary has been raised. But it's difficult to attract or curate qualified teachers if their salaries aren't increased, right? -Salary first? -Yeah. And I see the countries that excel in education are Singapore, South Korea, and China. But in South Korea, they truly compensate teachers as if they were working at Amazon, McKinsey, or any top company. And secondly, social status. So when a student just graduates, and they tell their parents in the village, "Mom, Dad, I got four job offers, here, here, here, and here, but I chose to become a teacher at Seoul National University." The presumption is that the compensation is good, But secondly, the parents will say, "That's amazing, child." -Oh, is this in South Korea? -Yes, they are highly respected. -In South Korea? -Yes, in South Korea. And this is manifested in the education products. I often tell the story that in high school in Seoul, students who graduate from that school have perfect SAT scores, Scholastic Aptitude Test, 750, oh sorry, 1600. -So that’s almost genius level, right? -Yes. -So if they graduate from there, they can go to UGM, Caltech, Princeton, Oxford, based solely on academic scores, they’ll definitely be accepted. -That’s tough. -That’s South Korea, because they recruit people from the top 5 percent of all higher education to teach anywhere, from kindergarten, elementary school, junior high, senior high, to university. In Singapore, they recruit 20% from the top. I don’t see how we can become really great if we don’t take a stance like that. -This is a new perspective for me. A perfect SAT score is tough. -Yes, it's achieved by a high school in Seoul, everyone who graduates from there has perfect scores. It’s unimaginable, and if we go to top schools in America, in the UK, Korean people, even though their population is only 50 million, we have 280 million. And this has already manifested in their products like LG, Samsung, Hyundai, Kia, and others. - This is a new perspective. One of the subjects at ITB talks about innovation, The difference between truly intelligent people is they love invention. We’re lacking inventors, we lack discoverers. An inventor can become one if they meet a really great teacher. I’m not discrediting quality, because, again, I totally agree with Mr. Gita, the salary has to be increased first so teachers and educators have more budget for improving their lifelong learning. -Correct. If we offer them decent salary, the ants will come, right? -Yes, where there’s sugar, there are ants. -Yes, some ants are good, some aren’t, right? We'll curate them later. But if we don’t increase it, the ants will go to McKinsey, Citibank, Amazon. Right? -Yes. -And in my opinion, the only disruption that can be done is through schools. Can you imagine if the teachers in schools teach like your parents? There would be millions of Tirtas. -Yes, I agree. -Then, it goes to pesantren, synagogues, mosques, churches, cafes, the discussions, the dialectics would be of such high quality, like you’re debating about the car. It would highlight perfection, the superlatives, What's the best. The focus would be on ideas, not events, not people. But ideas. If that’s done in social institutions, in schools, offices, households, cafes, clubs, it would become something. Nation building. -That’s in line, Sir, because my PhD topic is about people knowledge, Knowledge People Management. The only way to improve the capability of Indonesia’s Gold Generation 2045 is by improving HR capability. When our human capital increases, the human development index will rise, and GDP will also increase. But if we— and the quickest way I totally agree, is that the golden generation will happen in 2045, which will be the generation of my children, Alpha children. If our generation’s education system still struggles to get a teacher salary increase and quality teachers, then 2045 will only be enjoyed by a handful of people. And it’s like if we, as marketers, have a huge market, but the conversion will be small. So yes, 2045 will happen, but maybe only for 0.05%. So only a small number of HR will break through the capability that has privileges, maybe their parents are like mine, or like Mr. Gita and others. So, I agree with that, but it depends. Teacher salaries are dependent on the third factor, public policy. Government policies or regulations, the rules about teacher selection, teacher salaries, so that eventually society gets the same educators from Sabang to Merauke, and in the end, their level of thinking will be better. So, something as simple as why myths and facts, and health myths or hoaxes are believed? Because they can't think critically. -Oh, yes. That’s a characteristic of postmodernism, where kids nowadays don’t read books, because they don’t stick to the facts, they’re quicker to form opinions. And when they form opinions, they can’t differentiate between opinion and fact. And that’s very real, and this correlates with the polarization of conversations. -Yes, right. There’s an echo chamber on the right, and one on the left, they can’t intersect, or interact, or communicate. - Because they were taught from the start that differing opinions are wrong. So they can’t accept various differences, and in the end, "Oh, if you’re different from me, you’re wrong, you’re my enemy." So it keeps polarizing, A and B. So if I say I don’t like oranges, “Oh, that means I’m an enemy of oranges.” That’s happening now, right? And this polarization happens because there’s no critical thinking pattern, “Oh, differences are normal. Different opinions are fine,” as long as there’s evidence. If you’re going to express an opinion, it has to have evidence. Otherwise, don’t give your opinion. And don’t give an opinion outside your field, because it will be biased. That’s actually taught since elementary school. True, my second privilege, is that my parents gave me proper education, that’s why I am what I am now. -Your parents are extraordinary educators, who, if it could be cultivated or institutionalized in all institutions, not just schools, not just pesantren, not just churches, not just synagogues, not just mosques, not just offices, or anywhere. So your discussions or discourses at home should be replicated across all institutions so that the quantity of this is more visible. And for a country with 280 million people, we need to think about how we can compete with China and India. And they don’t hold back, when they send people to universities, they send to the best places in the world. In the US, there are 400,000 from India. From China, 400,000. From Indonesia, only 8,500. China sends 200,000 to the UK. Indonesia only sends 4,000. Yes, they can send students to UGM, ITB, Undip, and others, but they chase innovation, and technological innovation is still abundant in Europe and America, and now it’s starting to show in Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, and China. But in Southeast Asia, I see now the most eager to pursue knowledge was Singapore, now it’s Vietnam. And we can easily see that the most foreign students in South Korea used to be from China, now it’s Vietnam. Because it’s cheaper to study in Korea than in the US, cheaper than in Europe, cheaper than in Japan, cheaper than in China. And their technological innovation is amazing. Go study there. -Because innovation is something that will be the future. Because what we sell now, I think, disclaimer, this is my subjective view, because it’s usually spun, I’m used to it. So, for example, Our country is large, we’re still selling raw materials or semi-finished goods. Secondly, we’ve become the basket size for foreign companies, We’re only seen as a number, "Wow, Indonesia has 280 million, their minimum wage is this, sell soap packets, it’s sure to profit." But we forget to look that we also have a market abroad. And the only way is by sending people to study abroad. And we hope that many Indonesians I actually hope that smart people work in foreign companies until they become CEOs, So don’t just pull the smart ones back. I actually really want a CEO from Indonesia, like at Microsoft. That would be a game changer. - Amen. Amen. But if before they become CEO, we pull them back here, then it’s over. So we’re not unpatriotic. Nationalism is when one of our best talents leads a multinational company. Even International company. And when we pull them back, they’ll spread that culture of innovation. But if we only become a commodity, pulling them back while they're stepping up the ladder, that won’t work. -I once said, Can you imagine if the CEO of Microsoft was named Bambang? If the CEO of Google was named Komeng? -Wow, that would be terrific! -That would be more nationalist, because the values they or the diaspora can pour into Indonesia are insane. And if Google or Microsoft comes here, led by someone like Bambang or Komeng, they’d be thinking of making huge investments, not small-time stuff. Right? –Absolutely. Totally agree. -And that’s what I often bring up in the context of brain circulation or brain linkage, not brain drain. It’s totally fine for them to go abroad, gain knowledge, build their careers over 10, 20, 30 years, but if they can make it to the top of their Everest, I’ve said this before too – that’s what needs to be supported so Indonesians can reach the top on the world stage. But that’s not going to happen if the average IQ is 78.9, if our PISA ranking is 69 out of 81. If we can’t tell stories the way you do. – So this is no longer a micro issue, right? – It’s extremely macro. And here’s the thing, when I’m abroad and I line up people from countries A, B, C, D, E, then there's India. Everyone’s cognition is the same. But the ones who can really tell a story are the Indians. –That’s why they end up as CEOs, why they gain trust, right? – Because they can tell a story, and they’ve got the cognitive skills. - Smart people who can tell stories. - Yes. – And if we had one or two CEOs in international companies, that would boost Indonesia’s image and global trust. People would start to think, “Turns out Indonesian talent is just as good.” And that’s what we’re lacking. That’s why I’m one of those who agree if someone’s already abroad, "Fine, but prove yourself there. Build your career to the top. Like some of my peers who are doctors. There’s Mas Giovanni van Empel in Australia, pr another friend of mine in Japan. When they return to UGM, they actually teach. Just teach, then go back abroad. People look up to them, “Wow, that’s cool!” And more people are getting motivated to go to Japan. Japan’s a top destination, especially for cardiology and internal medicine. My friends go to Japan because others before them went to Japan. Others go to Europe because they followed people who studied in Europe. “Why didn’t Tirta go?” Well, I missed the boat. But one day, I still want to go. I still have a shot at getting a master’s. And for me, education is never limited by age. It’ll never be limited by age. And I agree with you, Pak Gita, there’s no other option but to send educators abroad. I actually wanted to comment on this “But UGM’s not bad!” True, it's not bad. But most global innovators come from- - I really respect schools in Indonesia, but if we’re looking at global rankings, Indonesian universities are still ranked in the 200s and up. If we really want to seek knowledge, we go to the top-ranking schools, right? Not that we shouldn’t go to the 200s. We can go there too, but we also need people to aim for the top-ranked ones. That’s what we need to make part of the culture. Don’t think so narrowly, like what we have in this country is already enough. We need openness. Education, in my view, needs to be deeply rooted in openness. Without openness, we can’t innovate or evolve into something or someone better. And you’ve been successful as a student, successful as a doctor, successful as an entrepreneur, and successful as a storyteller. Right? That shift from medicine to entrepreneurship is incredible. Now I want to go back to the health dimension. I want to talk about mental health issues. From what I’ve seen in Surgeon General’s Reports from developed countries, the most worrying diseases nowadays aren’t heart disease, diabetes, or stroke, but depression, anxiety, even suicide. Earlier we were chatting casually about Jonathan Haidt’s book, <i>The Anxious Generation,</i> where he puts forward the hypothesis or even theory that this is linked to excessive online activity and a lack of offline activity. What do you think about that, Tirta? – When you mentioned Jonathan Haidt, that aligns with medical papers. Yes, technology is like a double-edged sword. The upside is, it can take us to the highest point of innovation. But the downside is, it makes us spend more time in the tech world than in our real surroundings. That’s especially clear with our generation, and those younger than me. Why is Gen Z more vocal about mental health issues? Because most of their lives have already been exposed to tech, they’re used to expressing themselves on social media. The peak was during the 2020 pandemic. Gen Z was in their productive years either in high school, college, or starting their careers. That early Gen Z cohort, born around 1998 to the 2000s, most of them in 2020 were in their 5th or 6th semester. And just like that, everything got cut off. Online learning. led to a spike in their screen time, and that led to skyrocketing anxiety. So this anxiety issue, it’s actually affecting two generations. Here’s the plot twist, this is from WHO, there’s now a World Anxiety Day, World Depression Day, even a World Mental Health Day. WHO says the economic losses from mental health issues in companies are massive trillions of dollars. I forgot the exact number, but it’s easy to find from WHO. The main causes are anxiety in two groups: those born in the ’70s–’90s, and in Gen Z. Both are anxious, but about different things. Gen X is anxious about future uncertainty, rising house prices. Gen Z is anxious about their career path. They’re worried, “What if I can’t ever buy a house?” So their defense mechanisms are different. Gen X tends to bottle things up. Gen Z is more vocal, they express it on social media and are more open. And what’s the outcome of anxiety? It lowers your quality of life. Anxiety is heavily influenced by two hormones: cortisol and adrenaline. When cortisol rises, it increases your risk of insulin resistance. Because we’re anxious, our sympathetic nervous system stays on, we’re constantly in “ready” mode. So our blood sugar goes up, blood pressure goes up, which ultimately leads to stroke and heart issues. Gen X’s anxiety comes from work stress high pressure, instability, the threat of getting fired, fights at home. That’s why psychiatrists now mostly see either Gen X or Gen Z. So what about millennials? Now this is interesting. Millennials are the most rebellious, the most vocal. Honestly, my generation is the most thoughtful and the most stubborn. So they think they’re fine. “Oh, whatever. It’s not a big deal.” So now we have a generation saying, “What’s your problem? So weak! I was raised…” Yup, that’s my generation. I won’t deny it. That’s my generation because I’m like that too, I used to think others were weaker. And now I get it, after hearing from my psychiatrist friends. There are two types of people who confide in them: Gen X parents with grown kids, and Gen Z. Gen Z’s anxiety comes from screen time. So friends out there, this is your cue to check yourself if you’re using an iPhone, go to settings, check your screen time, and look at your top three most-used apps. I actually tested this on Pak Sandiaga. We had a conversation just like this, Pak. And guess what? His number one app was Zoom. I got him. "Come on, Mr. Sandiaga." How long was the Zoom? 2 hours and 43 minutes. So it turns out, at his age, he spends his time in meetings. His life is meetings. Number two was WhatsApp. Three, finance. I don’t even know what finance app. I didn’t want to check. Social media was only number four. So all this time, it turns out Amin was handling the social media. And we only found out yesterday on stage. So if someone’s top three screen time apps are social media, that's a red flag. Because on social media, anyone can be anyone. You can craft your persona. But young people are still figuring out who they are, so they end up thinking, “Success must look like that.” Leads to anxiety. So if you want to reduce anxiety, limit your screen time on social media. And if it’s high, make sure it’s not social media that’s taking up most of it. If the highest is Zoom or a WhatsApp group, that means it’s for work. But if your top screen time is still social media, especially TikTok or short videos, your attention span will go down. This is a 2023 study for most young people, born between 1991 and 2010, our attention span has dropped to 8 seconds. So if a video doesn’t get its point across in 8 seconds you’ve seen it, right, Pak Gita? Those Shorts or TikToks that pop up like: “Breaking news! Kidney failure from coffee? Find out now!” That hook has to hit in the first 9 seconds. -That’s wild. -And if those first 9 seconds aren’t interesting -Scroll. -Yes. Turns out there's research behind that. Because of high screen time on social media, young people’s attention span is now down to 6.7 seconds. So if Endgame doesn’t open with a hook like: “Dr. Tirta! His life story in just... watch now!” But I see that Endgame still gets high views. That gives me hope. -Still hopeful. I see hope in this: A lot of people say, “TikTok is disruptive, it’s ruining young people.” But no, I still see hope. Why? I saw Dr. Felix, PhD, educating people on TikTok for 7 minutes and 30 seconds, 1 million views. I made a 3-minute health video, 2 million views. So there’s still hope. -Yes. Meaning we, who have large followings and the intellectual ability to tell stories, Let’s start talking: Limit screen time to 3 hours. And even if you hit 5 hours, make sure at least 30% of it is not social media. Zoom, Kindle, e-books, anything else. If social media is your number one, your anxiety is going to get worse. Now Gen X is different, Pak. Gen X is funny, they have low screen time, but extremely high work stress. Their stress levels are super high, and their stress release is either super healthy or really unhealthy. The healthy ones go running, do ultramarathons Have you seen middle-aged men, 55 years old, suddenly hiking solo, biking for miles? During the pandemic, so many were cycling. - I know a few. - Or playing futsal. So Gen X either releases stress in very healthy ways, or not at all. Some eat lots of rich foods, they just love eating, what can you do? Some love traveling. I only recently realized- I don’t know if any of your viewers are Gen X they carry heavy mental burdens but don’t talk about it. They’re used to bottling it up. They spend time fishing, going on solo trips, doing umrah multiple times, or staying at the mosque for a long time because that’s where they can “talk”. They’re just not used to speaking openly. They are both different. - Does that help reduce cortisol? - It actually increases it, Pak. -Instead? -Yes. That’s why many Gen X folks by 40, even if they exercise, they still suffer from heart issues. That’s from work stress. Their coworkers push them, “Come on, play football! You’re weak!” Then, heart problems. So in my opinion, men over 40 carry incredibly high work stress. Both men and women. -How do we reduce cortisol? -Stress release. Finding peace. Through spirituality, or meditation, both active and passive. I asked a meditation expert. The first type is active: exercise, yoga, pilates, hiking, eating. The second is passive: praying, or traditional meditation like in Bali. That’s okay too. I can’t expect Gen X, who are 10 years older than me, to open up. It’s hard to get them to talk. They really don’t want to. Most of them DM me anonymously to vent. Their kids are already grown. Their stress usually revolves around work or their kids. "Doc, what do I do? My kid doesn’t want to go to college. I’m so stressed.” That’s the kind of stuff they say, but never out loud. That’s why their health issues aren’t far from diabetes, stroke, and heart disease. Even if they don’t smoke or anything, it’s work stress. Now why is Gen Z’s suicide rate increasing? Stress from anxiety. It’s overwhelming, isn’t it, Pak? Imagine being a psychiatrist with two massive patient groups. Millennials? We act like we’re tough. Because we’re in our most productive years right now. 28 to 38, we’re in our peak career phase. So we tend to power through things. -I’ve been meditating for the past 10 years. So every morning, after dawn prayers, I meditate. It really helps reduce cortisol. - I’ve read the theory, but you’ve been practicing it. Well, it comes with wisdom with age. -Oh, one more thing,runners from Ethiopia and Kenya, I read that their hemoglobin levels are super high. - That’s right. - It’s an anomaly, and that’s why they always win marathons. If I’m not mistaken, it already happened or will happen soon A Kenyan or Ethiopian runner will break the 2-hour marathon barrier. -Kipchoge did it recently, but with a pacer. -Right. So what can Indonesians do to increase hemoglobin levels? Since hemoglobin transports oxygen in the blood, supplying the heart and everything else. In this era, we can engineer what we call Artificial Intelligence, we can even manipulate cells. I’m not talking eugenics, but within reasonable bounds, What can we do to become more athletic? Okay. If we do genetic engineering, we’ll run into doping regulations. That’s what got Lance Armstrong in trouble. He used a substance to increase his hemoglobin. Ethiopian runners have high hemoglobin not just from running, but because they train at altitudes of 2,000 meters. Nairobi is over 2,000 meters above sea level. - So the theory is: If we want to improve the athletic performance of runners, cyclists, athletes, football or basketball players their national training camps should be in high-altitude areas. That’s why one of the athletics camps is in Pengalengan. Because what stimulates hemoglobin production is an adaptation process called homeostasis. Our body will adapt through homeostasis, and the training has to be in highlands. There was a TikTok video that blew up, but in a positive way: “I wore expensive shoes but still lost to a Rinjani porter in flip-flops.” They’ve got huge calves. Because they’re adapted to their environment. We hike as a hobby, they do it for a living. No hike, no income. They train at high altitude. Rinjani back and forth every day. For us, Rinjani is a challenge. For them, it’s just Tuesday. So if you want to be like them, build the habits. And we, as a country, need to develop athletic training programs in high-altitude areas. But still back to point two: To produce quality teachers, there must be quality income. There’s a lack of certainty in sports careers. So even after they peak and pass their golden years, not all of them get endorsements or brand deals. From what I know, overseas, I'm not sure, I'm not a runner maybe Mas Agus Prayogo can answer this. From what I know, in developed countries, retired athletes are still managed by the government, so there's a sense of security. So parents are supportive if their kids want to become runners. They don't ask, "What are you going to eat when you retire?" because it's already guaranteed. If there's financial security, we’ll see more top-tier talents emerge, including football players. Who said this? Was it Pak Edi? A former chairman of PSSI said, "Indonesia is not a player-producing country, it's a spectator country." I laughed at that, Pak. Imagine, 280 million people, but we have less than 500,000 players. If I'm not mistaken, that was said by Pak Edi. Pak Edi Rahmadi. I laughed at the time, but 8 years later, it turned out to be true. Why doesn't everyone want to be a football player? Because every time a kid dreams of becoming a football player, their parents say, "Why become a football player? What will you eat after you retire?" It even became a movie called <i>Garuda di Dadaku. </i> A movie, and my kid watched it. There’s a scene where an old man says, "Why become a football player? What are you going to eat?" Exactly. So it’s true, if we could guarantee an athlete’s livelihood after retirement, there would be so many worthy kids. Because I’ve seen it firsthand, So many worthy athletes don’t go pro, they go to college instead, because they or their parents think that’s what will earn them money. Running is going viral. It’s actually been popular for a while, but it keeps rising. This is a great opportunity for the government, "Let’s ensure the athletes' livelihoods are secured." Then we’ll see progress. Japan won the 2018 Boston Marathon. And the reason is simple: they have the Hakone Ekiden, a prestigious university-level competition. Japanese players like Endo and friends, who beat our national team, come from university competitions. And from what I know, the best talent pipeline still belongs to Mas Azrul Ananda, DBL (Developmental Basketball League). DBL is my role model in sports management and business. He runs DBL so well that it produces amazing talents, and most DBL players end up in the IBL and even join the national team. In my opinion, if the DBL system is implemented well, then this is the kind of certainty the government must build, so there’s a reliable pathway for athletes, so parents across Indonesia won’t be afraid to let their children become teachers or athletes. Back to financial matters, Sir. -Tirta, we’ve talked about so many things already. -Yes. -Lastly, let’s talk a bit about business, entrepreneurship. -Oh man, don’t, because Pak Gita teaches that stuff. -I’m curious about your view on Indonesian startups. -We’ve already discussed it a bit- how do you see -Is it okay, Pak Gita? -Go ahead, please. -Because you’re the real expert on this. -No, I’d like to hear your view. -I actually have this itch, honestly. There’s this question that came up on social media. So there was this tweet that really stuck with me on X. I don’t know if the account was anonymous or real. "Why is it that my generation, people my age, don’t last long when leading startups?" That became a question for me. Why is it that people born in the '90s, '85 to '90, when leading a company, don’t last long? What’s wrong with us? After I talked with some lecturers and I don’t just ask away when I’m confused I asked ChatGPT with a well-written prompt, and it said: lack of management skills, people management too general, too theoretical. Then I asked my lecturers, and their answers were more practical: there’s no clear career path in those companies. They hire people based on networks. That’s the answer from my circle of educators, though not representing any campus. They said it’s because there’s no meritocracy or technocracy. That’s what my lecturers said. And my peers also said it’s because in some companies, they value trust and loyalty to friends and networks. You might have someone who’s smart but put in the wrong position, so they don’t perform, don’t look good, so they seem incompetent. Meanwhile someone less capable is placed in a role that suits them, so they perform well. That becomes a problem. Putting the wrong person in the wrong place. Hiring not based on capability, but prioritizing networks. When in fact, networks are for finding investors. For me, networking is useful when we’re building a big company, a partnership, or some big venture. But here, networks are being used to hire people. So the talent acquisition is based on networks. It should be the BOD (Board of Directors) who handles networking. But instead, talent acquisition is done through networking, not based on capabilities, what someone has actually done. And we view capability only in terms of academics. When we should be open to the fact that even if someone’s academic credentials aren’t great, but their experience is solid, they’re still qualified. And fourth, we tend to limit things by age, it’s annoying. That’s what ends up with unqualified leaders leading companies too soon. Why? Because there's an age limit of 25. How does that work? Max age 25, minimum 4 years of experience. Wait, does that mean you graduated at 21? Accelerated? Because of this age restriction, someone aged 35 to 40 can’t get in, even if they’re actually a great fit. Meanwhile someone who’s not ready, gets the job. It's a mess. That’s what causes startups to crash. Maybe it’s not even the leader’s fault, but poor delegation. The chain from top to bottom doesn’t work. So what’s the solution? Again, stop hiring based on age. If you want your startup to succeed, cut back on age-based recruitment. Because it keeps great talents, who just happen to be 35 out of the picture. "But Doc, they’re not up to date?" Not necessarily. With today’s technology, someone 35 or 45 can totally learn. If you limit by age, you’ll end up hiring people who don’t have enough experience. And secondly, please hire people based on capability. Don’t just say, "He's in in, he’s my college buddy, I trust him." Are we really hiring someone because they were our college friend? Or because they’re my dad’s neighbor? No. That’s not right. That’s why there was this plot twist, a mind-blowing comment I forgot who said it, was it an account called PNS Ababil or something? The best recruitment system is actually civil service—PNS. Really. The best method. We don’t know what goes on behind the scenes. -But it’s tested. -Yeah, everyone takes the same test. And in the end, the best talent is chosen. The best method is actually the civil servant system. Because everyone is tested using the same method, regardless of where you graduated from. They test you and then assign you, "Oh, you're suited for this, let’s place you here." It’s actually a good system, Sir. -I often say this when we look at it, Income per capita growth in Southeast Asia compared to China over the past 30 years, Southeast Asia has grown only 2.7 times. China, 10 times. -Yeah, I saw that graph, it’s exponential, right? -Exactly. And China pulled ahead of Southeast Asia because of four things. First, investment in education. Second, investment in infrastructure. Third, governance, connecting talent with power. Fourth, competitiveness. We already talked about education. Now let’s talk about meritocracy. In Southeast Asia, the tendency is to hire based more on patronage and/or loyalty than merit. -Wow, yeah. -In China, it’s strict. If your IQ is 70, you’re out. -Even if you’re the boss’s kid. -Exactly. Whether you're someone’s child or partner, doesn’t matter. But in other countries, non-academic or non-intellectual factors are heavily considered. But to be fair, the talent pool is limited because education is also limited in Southeast Asia, right? We already talked about it earlier roughly 90% of households don’t have a bachelor’s degree. So how do we build the kind of culture you experienced? To me, it’s a chicken-and-egg problem. We want to find meritocracy, but we also need to increase the supply, more educational output. So how do you see this moving forward? -It’s tough, like being a lecturer. I didn’t expect this, but this podcast really got me thinking. The first answer is, let me start with the worst-case scenario, sir. It’ll happen in the medical field because our complaints are so high, there’s already a narrative about bringing in foreign doctors. So because we can’t produce them for the government or the Minister of Health, maybe we can’t produce doctors that meet their standards, so the instant way to fill that talent gap is by bringing them from abroad. - Are you open to that concept? - I’m open to all points of view, sir. Going back to what I learned from my father, every mirror has two sides. If I get stuck on one side, I won’t be able to understand the other. So maybe the Minister of Health sees it from a managerial point of view, because his background is as a bank CEO. So he’ll view growth through the lens of talent. Doctors are used to a decade-plus of education, so producing doctors quickly is just not feasible. - This is real, China has 4.5 million doctors. - Huh? - 4.5 million. Meanwhile in Indonesia, if I’m not mistaken, it’s only 250,000. If we do the math based on population, we should proportionally be well above 250,000. -That’s the classic supply-demand, chicken-and-egg case. If you want great doctors, you’ve got to produce them domestically. But training proper doctors in Indonesia takes 15–20 years. So he, as the policymaker, as a manager who makes and oversees policy, is naturally going to meet resistance. That’s one. The second is the foreign teacher narrative that just came up two days ago, I think it was from Prof. Stella, right? Same deal, since we can’t fulfill the talent needs, just bring them in. But again, it’s just a narrative so far. So here’s the worst-case scenario, if we keep recruiting people through networks when networking is supposed to be a skill used when negotiating with clients but it ends up being used to fill talent gaps. Large multinational companies coming into Indonesia because of open investment policies that if I’m not mistaken, you have mentioned in your lectures If Indonesia wants to grow, we need to welcome as much foreign investment as possible. But if that can’t be achieved, it’s tough. How can they operate here if our local talent doesn’t meet their needs? So they set up a site here, but all the talent is from abroad. That’s the worst-case scenario. And in the end, we just can’t- -In principle, I actually support the Minister of Health’s approach. -Okay. - Let’s say there’s a disease in Sumedang that only a medical expert from Sudan can cure. We should be open to bringing that doctor here, right? As long as we don’t have the necessary expertise locally to treat the illness anywhere, not just Sumedang. That concept should also apply in other contexts, like education. If we want to train students in Tarakan to become physics experts, and there’s no physics expert there, and none available in Jakarta either, then we need to be open to bringing one in from anywhere. That’s what we call the democratization of ideas. And it’s a kind of pragmatism that’s very real in Singapore. If they have a broken toilet, they ask, “Who in the world can fix this efficiently?” And if nobody in Singapore can, they’ll hire a toilet expert from wherever, Norway, Ethiopia, Solo as long as that person can be held accountable as a real expert who can get the job done. That’s openness. - Exactly. That’s a point of view I’ve come around to. I was resistant to it four years ago. - As long as we understand that the long-term goal is for these experts to transfer their knowledge to local people. - So aside from hiring them, they also transfer knowledge. The knowledge management aspect has to be clear, right? Exactly. We can’t hide behind the blanket of nationalism without actually curing the sick or educating the uneducated. So there are two steps: we create a roadmap for knowledge management or transfer; we recruit the best foreign talent to temporarily fill the gap. At the same time, these experts must agree to transfer their knowledge to us. -Yes. - So when their contracts end, our local talent is ready, and the roadmap is implemented. - Exactly. And once we’re ready, we can close the door. - That’s the solution with the least risk. - I used to be resistant too, Pak Gita. I totally agree now. Back then I made decisions based purely on idealism. Now I use fishbone analysis, Ishikawa diagram to make decisions with the least risk. And I think this has the least risk. -Nationalism should manifest in national resilience. And national resilience can only be sustained if we’re capable, healthy, educated, cultured, civilized, communicative, and informed. -So I’d revise my earlier opinion, foreign talent isn’t just a worst-case scenario. It could actually be a big advantage for us. - Absolutely. It’s empirical. I’ve seen it even in China. How they're being open. Back in 1978, Deng Xiaoping began reforms. Part of that was welcoming foreign investors with the goal of transferring technology. -78? -78. Mao Zedong had died just 1–2 years before that, then Deng took over and launched reforms. That’s when China’s era of openness began. Now they’ve achieved technological supremacy. They spent the past 30 years learning from America, Japan, Korea, Europe, and now the roles have reversed. - So Korea was the same? During the reforms in 1988–1992? -Oh, yes. -Japan too, around 1976. - Under Park Chung-hee and others. But I think it’s not easy to shift the mindset in Indonesia toward openness. Still, I truly believe in the democratization of ideas. If there are no ideas in a place, then open the doors and let those ideas come in from anywhere. - This is really interesting. Maybe if my doctor friends heard it directly from you, they’d instantly understand the point of view. Seriously. Because to be honest, Pak Gita, in healthcare services, it’s harder dealing with 30 medical specialists than 30 patients. Because each specialist wants to be heard. So I feel like instead of the Minister of Health explaining this, it’d be better if you told them directly. It’s really compelling, and I do agree with the perspective. I even spoke to some doctor friends about it. They asked, “Are you pro-Minister of Health?” It’s not about being pro or anti. Let me explain the POV. The Minister is making policy from a managerial perspective. Okay, he’s not a doctor. So we understand he views it from a management angle, and he was brought in to handle the health system. That’s clear. As a healthcare practitioner, it just so happens that the BOD is in a managerial role. The conflict lies in the pace of change. You want gradual change, while they want it fast. So what should be done? You have to meet halfway. If both of them are in the BOD and you’re the executor, and nobody wants to meet in the middle, it’s tough. Because change will inevitably happen, no matter what. Now, the difficult part is, those who want to change are usually young doctors, because they’re more open with my generation. My generation is now becoming specialists. It’s only been 3 or 4 years, those I often invite to my podcast that generation is now becoming specialists, and they’re more open. -Yes. I saw the one with the urology expert. -Yes, Dr. Wisda. When he educates, it’s very plot-twist-y. He never forbids patients from doing anything. He always says, “It’s okay, as long as it’s not excessive.” That’s totally different from doctors in the old days. Now, the doctors who are resistant, we can’t blame them either. That’s why if the Minister wants this to go smoothly, he has to sit in the middle. It’s a triangle of assets within a company. So as policymakers, the Commission 9, the doctors, but they all have big egos. Because no one wants to meet in the middle, well, this is the result. It’s like in a company let’s say you and I. You hire a consultant, maybe McKinsey or PwC, to make changes. I resist eventually, the company collapses. And this keeps happening with BPJS. BPJS is already bleeding. It just so happens the director used to be my former dean, Mr. Gufron. So yeah, it keeps bleeding. If we keep bleeding, it’s tough. Hospitals might not be able to pay their bills. That’s why this must be addressed immediately, both from the BPJS side, meaning healthcare service financial management, insurance, or in terms of talent management, and that’s a chicken-and-egg problem. And what can we do? If we go back to startups, it turns out what my professor said was true. Meritocracy is very difficult to implement here. Our culture has always been to recruit people we trust, based on loyalty. What’s the term? -Patronage and/or loyalty. -Yes, patronage and loyalty. You're like a professor. The last time I met Bu Yuni Ros, she said, “Don’t ever, Tirta, recruit someone…” this is her actual quote. “I get really upset when people recruit just because they’re friends. A company once collapsed because of that.” She ranted about it in class. And you are the second person who said that. Two of my teachers said the same thing so it must be true. So the problem in Indonesian companies is hiring the wrong people, setting age limits, and not creating a clear career path. And when I joined Unilever, I joined Unilever and United Tractors recently, for the first time, as a consultant. Their meritocracy is amazing, I admit. At Unilever, the meritocracy is excellent. And funnily enough, if we look at Unilever’s financial statement, their biggest expense is for knowledge management. -Knowledge management, research and development. -Yes, their budget is massive for that. They don’t hesitate to spend on those things. And UT, United Tractors, also allocates budget for that. That’s when I realized why these companies remain stable for 30 or 40 years. Because their meritocracy is clear. Maybe their salaries aren’t as big as tech startups, but their career paths, knowledge structure, and recruitment process are all clear. That’s something we millennials need to work on. Gen X turns out to not be so wrong after all. Because we used to think Gen X was wrong. “Why are you so ambitious about your careers?” Well, they’re the ones making the policies and it’s neat. And we’re too ambitious, trying to handle everything ourselves, while the ones with solid networks are the baby boomers. Turns out Gen X is actually the game-changer, in my opinion. So people born in the ’70s to ’80s are now the ones worthy of becoming leaders, In my opinion. ’70s to ’80s. The president is a baby boomer. The vice president is a millennial. No Gen X in the top leadership yet. -Let’s hope. -I really hope that Gen X will be given the chance to lead I think the meritocracy would be clearer, because they might be more capable of ensuring that. From the five companies I’ve worked with, most of their leaders are Gen X, and they are clear. I don’t know why they manage to live frugally, their social media accounts are private Gen X right now- I actually want to ask you, why aren’t Gen X leading yet? Can I ask that? Is that okay? -Of course. I just haven’t really thought about it. -So those born in the ’70s are now what, 54? -In their 50s. -Yeah. People born in the ’70s to ’80s should be in leadership now. -But if they’re not that active on social media, that might actually be a positive trait. -Yeah, they’re really low-profile. -And if they’re firm about hiring based on meritocracy, that’s an incredible attribute. That’s the kind of leader we’ll need going forward whether male or female who firmly chooses based on meritocracy. Not just in government, but also in entrepreneurship, in academia, everywhere. Right now, we’re in an era saturated with festivalization or sensationalism, lacking intellectualization. That’s what should be prioritized. That’s why conversations like this hopefully they’ll be part of the intellectualization process. -This is valuable knowledge for me, honestly. I’ve learned so much. In fact, I’m becoming more certain because my dream has shifted. I haven’t told you about this yet. My ultimate goal now is to keep studying, I want to teach. I’m currently at UGM. I’m helping out with public relations at UGM. I’m also a guest lecturer at two campuses. So it turns out I might have the privilege when it comes to income. I know that lecturer salaries in Indonesia aren’t as good as in Finland or Germany, but I have the privilege to share knowledge without worrying about income. -You should think about how you can teach abroad too. Guest lecture. -That’s hard. -No, because your storytelling is extraordinary. You should be able to tell stories abroad about Indonesia. That’s nationalism. -I’ve never done it. Once I got the chance during undergrad, and I turned it down. -Well, God willing, the opportunity will come again. -That’s my biggest regret when I buried that dream. -It’ll come again. Believe it. It’ll come. Tirta, it’s been almost two hours. Any final messages for our friends? My message... -Here’s my message to my peers, okay? I always base it on age. To those born between ’85 and ’95, who are now in the career-building phase, I’m sure you either have a little child or are still child-free. If you have money, use it for these two things: The most important investments aren’t bank deposits. Those are important, sure. Stocks are important too. But before buying gold, spend your money on knowledge and health. In my opinion, these aren’t expenses. You’ll never regret spending money on those two. Medical checkups, exercise, education, because you’ll reap the benefits 10 years from now. Trust me, if you were born between ’85 and ’95. That’s for you. For my younger bros born after ’96. Those born in ’96 or ’97 are in an awkward spot, too old for Gen Z, too young for millennials. Be whatever you want. But to the Gen Z folks younger than me, you’re smarter than me. Honestly. You’re smarter than me. At ITB, I met some of you who were more ambitious, had higher GPAs, and better soft skills than I do. You’re generally better at Orange, Tableau, Power BI than I am. Use technology for something meaningful. Job-hopping is okay. So you're not loyal to one company. But that doesn’t mean rigid systems are wrong. This is for you: Sometimes the rigid, fixed structures are what provide clarity. If you keep changing, it’ll lead to instability later in life, say, at 35, and we’ll be too tired to keep changing as we get older. So use tech for good. And if you want to job-hop for experience, go ahead but eventually you’ll find a stable company to settle into. Now, this is for my seniors, my older generation, Gen X. You’re now probably in your 50s, 45, 50, or 55. Believe me, dreams don’t end with numbers. So if you feel your career is stuck, that you never made it to BOD, only got to senior manager that’s okay. But remember, your life and death only happen once. So I want to say this to those in their 50s because I have team members in their 50s. My driver. I got him to start running 6 kilometers. And that was a small change. So to you Gen X folks, small changes are positive. Change doesn’t have to be big. You don’t have to resign or go big. No. But at least, death comes once, but we live many times. So at the very least, you can live again the next day. Appreciate small things. Don’t only appreciate big milestones. For example, “I have to be successful because I own land.” “I have to be successful because I bought a house for my two kids.” No. Small things matter too. Maybe you’re overlooking small things, and that’s what makes life feel tangled. If your career is stuck, use that as a chance to explore something else. Even if the profit is just 7 million rupiah a month or 5 million, At least you’ll experience what running a business feels like. Or at least experience something new, even if it’s small. That’s the third. And I hope you won’t be stingy with knowledge toward my generation because we need to collaborate. And to Mr. Gita you are my mother’s idol, my father’s idol. My parents talk about you all the time. My colleagues at the office watch your podcast. It’s a huge honor for me to be here. I usually watch your Stanford lectures -You're welcome. -In English, and they’re really hard. This is one this is a privilege I might never get again. So I promise myself, and you, Mr. Gita, the knowledge I’ve gained here, I will share it with my friends. And with the public. -Thank you so much, Tirta. Everyone, that was Dr. Tirta Mandira Hudhi. Thank you.