Psychological Analysis of Batman Characters

[Music] heat up here [Music] hey there Gothamites brian Ward here with another episode of the Arkham Sessions brought to you by Comics Alliance and with me as always the absolutely fantastic psychologist to the superheroes the superheroins and of course the super villains Dr andrea Letmendy this is a podcast that's dedicated to the psychology of Batman the animated series every week we tackle a new episode we talk about the characters the villains and you know the relationships between them and I try to lift out the psychological themes and talk about some of the very real and hopefully some interesting topics and phenomena that are specific to psychology yeah and last week we may have touched a psychological nerve with some people uh might have been sort of because of something I may or may not have said of course of course I'm referring to Robin's Reckoning Part Two if you've not listened to it toward the end of the show I hypothesized that maybe Batman at some point in time in his history could have come in contact with Joe Chill the man responsible for the murder of Thomas and Martha Wayne Bruce's parents and that it's possible that he went over the line and that it's possible he may have even killed Joe Chill this of course sent shock waves through Geekdom and uh I'm partially sorry for that but it got people talking and that's exactly what we wanted well remember I didn't disagree with you you had pointed out that it could explain why he has this kind of you know he protects Robin from getting involved with Zuko's case yeah and you know I thought it was plausible because you know we we talked about the idea that Batman may truly believe that he's beyond the point of recovery right that you know sure he he acknowledges that he and Robin experienced very similar traumas as as children they both lost their parents they both saw this happen and something is is he truly believes that he is unable to recover from that that he has lost a part of his life but that Robin Dick Grayson is you know that there's hope for him that he could have a more normal life but he's got to stay away from you know some of the very things that that I think Bruce Wayne believes um you know caused him to go down the this dark path so to speak yeah i mean he he specifically tells Dick as a 11-year-old boy "But it will get better in time for you." And we we pointed on that a couple of times implying that it won't get any better for Bruce bruce will never be rid of the Batman persona he will never fully feel like he is over the death of his parents and I I think that is very important but I will say that and all of this sort of was spawned by a tweet we received that specifically said Brian Ward's actually he says brain but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt there brian Ward's attempts at creating interest by pushing off-the-wall theories is driving me nuts you know yikes yeah so what do you do to these people i I gotta say it's not that off-the-wall and I also have to say it's not a theory it's a hypothesis but when you go back the the point of this show is to look at these characters as they grow as they evolve as they go from one episode to the next and here we're 35 episodes in we have seen the Joker uh you know who we will talk about in this episode we have seen Scarecrow we have seen Mr freeze we have seen people and we have seen their arcs the one constant is Bruce/B Bruce Wayne/Batman and I don't think it's unfair to say that since Per chance to dream where he was given the opportunity to live a perfect life and turned it down because he was haunted by the Batman you did this to me i don't think it's unfair to say that that it it's possible it wasn't the mission that he was haunted by it could have been his past it could have been who Batman is because of something he did early in his career i mean even in uh the flashbacks to Robin as a young boy as young Dick Grayson even at that point Jim Gordon is referring to Batman to others as the Batman or this Batman he he specifically says this Batman's got to look a real spooked so he's not as familiar with this this vigilante it's possible that that that this was toward the beginning of Batman's own career in Gotham City so I don't think it's unheard of to think that it's possible that he tracked down Joe Chill the same way Dick Grayson is trying to track down Tony Zuko mhm i don't think it's uh unreasonable to think that he may have reached the same limit that Dick Grayson as Robin reaches when he finally gets Zuko in his clutches he nearly kills him you're through Zuko forever right had Batman not been there he probably would have mhm it's not unreasonable to think Batman went through that exact same situation and and he seems so hellbent on keeping Dick from going down the same path one has to wonder why i posit this i get that it's a 22-minute show i get that it's got to and in this case a 44minute show because it's a two-parter but I if if Robin was going to go out and find Zuko on his own I get why Batman might be nervous because Batman wouldn't necessarily be there to help Robin that's not the case batman had Robin in the Batmobile took him home dropped him off and then left i firmly believe when Batman says "I didn't want to see him take you too." I don't think Robin was genuinely in danger i don't think Tony Zuko was going to be able to take on both Batman and Robin like I I don't think Robin was going to die uh right so I mean you're referring to the idea that Batman was talking about Dick Grayson's um healthy functioning yeah that if he were to continue this path Tony Zuko as crazy as that man is as violent as dangerous um but also with the potential that he embodies the revenge Yeah that Robin is seeking that if Robin you know finds him and and you know enacts this his feelings of hatred and and guilt and shame and all the things that he's experiencing he may cross the line yeah and that's where that's one line that I think Batman thinks you can't return from that once you cross that line you're forever gone um psychologically speaking and we see Robin sort of going down that path as he starts to say things like "I've waited a long time." He is reaching that point of no return even in that moment and I I think it's fair to say that in my logic Batman probably didn't think Robin was in physical danger right if they took on Zuko together right well right and here's the thing it's not just about this episode like what I'm hearing from you is that you are you're coming up with these hypotheses and you're expressing them and it's coming out of a place of curiosity it's coming out of a place of knowing the Batman universe and lore and and you know clearly you're expressing things that I think other people might be thinking about or have questions about so you know occasionally you know I I don't know about your ginger theories we we entertain them once in a while but I think for the most part you're raising questions that most people whether they're in this field of psychology or not would be asking yeah i I want to make it very clear that this tweet and I think this this part of the tweet kind of rubbed me the wrong way a little bit i'm I'm okay with criticism by the way if you've got criticism please let us know but he is suggesting that I am attempting to create interest and I'm I'm I'm putting forth these hypotheses that are offthe-wall solely for quote unquote the ratings let me just say for the record off air you are constantly asking questions about Batman's functioning and why he does what he does i mean we this is one of the reasons uh that we thought to even start this show is so that we can sit down and really talk about Batman's psych psychology about his functioning and so among other things in the animated series so it's very clear i want to make it even clearer that for the record you're not bringing up these hypotheses to um you know to get some kind of reaction from me or from listeners yeah I had a very pleasant conversation with Sunochamp on Twitter who who doesn't think that he killed Joe Chill but certainly thinks it's interesting to think about certainly acknowledges that Dick Grayson grounded Batman in some way actually made him a little lighter it's not a coincidence that Batman is portrayed darker before he met Dick Grayson or maybe just after he met Dick Grayson to the way that he is portrayed now and um and then of course uh our good friend of the show Bernardo Sha uh I I couldn't possibly thank enough because he wrote a fantastic email in support now he reminded me of things i've been reading Batman since I was a wee lad but I had even forgotten some of these cases and Bernard O'Shea jumped right on them now now in these these particular story lines Batman didn't kill Joe Chill but he certainly got really close and then just like Robin decided not to and then usually by the end of the story Joe Chill died anyway usually kind of by accident but uh he pointed out uh in Batman Year 2 which uh for those who don't know is Detective Comics 5752578 uh basically the whole plot is Batman is kind of teaming up with Joe Chill uh in order to uh to fight the Reaper and there comes a time when Batman has the opportunity to exact revenge for his parents um on Joe Chill and doesn't of course the Reaper ends up getting Joe Chill but then there is an episode of Batman the Brave and the Bold uh called The Chill of of Night and and that is actually considered one of the best episodes of that animated series and uh and and it's written by Paul Deany so uh it certainly has some some bit of connection but again Batman is is presented with an opportunity to kill Joe Chill decides not to joe may or may not make it out of that episode uh anyway oh wow um you know and and then you've got cases like I don't know Batman Begins where uh you know Bruce Wayne is specifically going to Joe Chill's trial with a gun in his pocket ready to kill him he doesn't get the opportunity but there's no reason to believe that he wouldn't have had someone not done it you know in the hallway of of the courtroom well and the the common thread here among all these stories both in comics and film is that there's this enter he entertains the idea of murdering Joe Chill he thinks about and prepares and is ready to end the life of the person that ended his parents' life ended his parents' lives I should say so that I think is the realistic part of this and I think I think that what's great about that commonality is that he's willing to do it there are points in his life when he's willing to do it and again that's very realistic when you talk to folks who are recovering from an interpersonal trauma like that that's one of the first things they want to do they want to end the life of they they want to cause the same pain that that person caused them so you know of course we don't see Batman do it but I think that if this raises questions for us maybe that wasn't the intent but it raises questions for us wow he must have really gone to a dark place yeah and it certainly suggests that that Batman doesn't want Dick to have to go through that same dark place it might even suggest that he's not 100% sure Dick is ready to be at that place and and we see that Dick might just be on the other side of the right place like he that you know but had Batman not been there we don't know what would have happened so um it's fair to say and by the way I will point out there's the Jeff Loe story uh Dark Victory where where we actually see a similar situation where Robin is chasing down uh his Joe Hill Tony Zuko and uh Zuko actually dies of a heart back so you know like you know Robin Robin didn't do it but but you know like he he was given the opportunity so so offthe-wall no and in all these stories it's interesting that Zuko or or Joe Chill end up dying in some other way yeah as if to say like the pain ends here yeah we also had a fantastic email from Kyle Varama varama um sorry i'm hoping one of those pronunciations was correct but Kyle actually talks a little bit about the uh the episode Robin's Reckoning and how uh it reminded him of something that is going on in his own life and I thought that it was important to to note it and and luckily he was he was okay with us talking about it on the show but he actually emailed and said uh that the idea of Bruce taking in Dick with the hope that Dick will not grow up to be like Bruce resonates in his own life he says "I volunteer at my church as a youth group leader i've worked with fifth and sixth graders middle school teenagers and I'm now working with high school teenagers i take that same mentality of wanting to help steer these teenagers away from paths that I've taken i feel like I'm helping the kid I once was much like how Bruce does when he has Robin by his side uh listening to these episodes made me reflect on that aspect of my life i just want to thank you for that and I look forward to more episodes from you so definitely uh I I think these shows are uh taking on sort of a whole new life and we thank for Kyle we thank Kyle for emailing us on that what a nice note yeah it's conversations like this that really get me revved up i enjoy them i enjoy talking with people about different possibilities and I appreciate everyone who tweeted us everyone who emailed us uh you guys are the absolute best and uh we we like to keep that conversation going so send us more tweets whether it's Arkham Sessions or at Arkham Asylum or BW028 send us emails [email protected] uh or underthe mask online and and you know let's keep this conversation going whether it's specifically this one or this episode coming up let's talk about this and people can disagree with us it's happened before but I think you know we don't have other ulterior motives about why we we bring up the ideas that we bring up it's it's a lot of times it's your perception and your opinion versus mine now I I tend to have that academic scientific background so that's what I try to bring to folks but you know again you're asking the questions that other people have too and so when you when those are raised I want to have that discussion um so keep up the good work brain thank you i I will do just that so let's talk about this episode we are of course talking about The Laughing Fish an absolute fan favorite and for good reason it was written by Paul Deany directed by Bruce Tim so at the very least we know we're going to have an amazingly entertaining episode if nothing else and this is an opportunity for us to take a look at one of our favorite characters the Joker and his accomplice Harley Quinn it's her second appearance right on the show uh but it is the Joker's fifth appearance the very first time that we were introduced to him during Christmas of the Joker you were kind of leaning toward uh if I remember correctly borderline personality disorder because he seemed to have an emotional connection toward Batman and wanted to spend Christmas Eve with him and then since then you have sort of slid into antisocial personality disorder so we'll talk about whether you think it is still the case or not as we go forward through the episode well of course with Deanie and Tim behind the episode it's it's always going to be a blast it's always going to be well written of course Joker episodes tend to be adventurous full of action and very weird plots weird plots and of course um violence you know he is of all the villains he is the one who's I would say the most violent the most unpredictable yeah let's go through it so we start out Joker is at large again they they just can't keep him what's really funny is whenever we see him in Arkham Asylum he seems to be enjoying himself you know behind his Yeah glass door he He's playing cards or he's you know whatever i think I think he's always just sort of waiting his time out he knows that he's going to escape again he's developing some sort of scheme i will give Joker that he is always very wellplanned and ready to go so uh I think that's probably what he's doing while he's enjoying himself in Arkham Asylum but he has escaped and he is still at large batman appears to basically be waiting for the Joker to make his move because we in the very beginning of the episode see it group of fishermen come in they are bringing in their catch and uh they they lay it down on the the pier and and all of the fish look like the Joker they're all white and have the perma smiles they've got the green fins they definitely you know the big red lips they are uh they have definitely been affected in some way shape or form with the Joker's toxin he's made his move that's what he was waiting for he was waiting for the fish he got the fish yeah uh well now what batman takes one of the fish into the batcave in order to analyze it and uh once again Batman has no sense of humor dining in tonight sir the dissection tray please Alfred clearly your butler is making a joke here and no time for that ain't got time for that harley and Joker enter what appears to be it's a patent office essentially and the Joker wants a patent on this fish he wants a piece of every fish sold only to be told that that kind of thing doesn't happen you can't patent fish you can't trademark this well and his his reasoning is that now all the fish in Gotham Bay uh have have the Joker permile on them he owns them now they have his trademark so therefore he's entitled to any profits millions of dollars a day to finance my happily hedonistic lifestyle yeah and when he's told by Mr g carl Francis at the office that that sort of thing doesn't happen he slaps him upside the face with a fish and uh Harley complains ooh fishing [Music] sprays a little pink perfume on him this can't be good and uh they all walk away but the Joker makes it clear that this guy has got very little time to change his mind as if he could otherwise you'll be the poorest fish of all [Laughter] [Music] we then go back to Batman dissecting the fish and he has determined that there is a particular toxin that the Joker has used that is only affecting the fish it's not something that can affect the humans in the same way they're joyful and jolly fish say mom wondering what to feed the family tonight what will I feed the family tonight try me famous Joker fish joker's making himself very clear coming to your local store just as soon as that nasty old Mr g carl Francis decides to give me my legal cut of the province i want my piece mhm and he thinks it's a legal piece like he he's like "No no no this is I am entitled to this legally." I don't think he cares about the logic or the legality i think at this point he's his threats are you know it's really a part of his personality he doesn't care whether he's in the right or wrong he wants what he wants yeah the cops put Mr francis under protection he doesn't understand why he's being picked on but uh the Batman gets in and in an interesting way they they're like "Don't worry this is locked down and you're under protection batman comes from the shadows dressed as a security guard or as a cop undresses he's still wearing the cowl and the cape and everything under the costume how the cape fit down into the pants it's part of you know it's a little weird but but he says "If I got in this easily so will the Joker." He's kind of he's either giving the Joker a a lot of due credit by saying "Look Joker's on my level if I can get in Joker can." Or he's making the Joker out to be better than he in that he's like "Look if I can get in Joker can totally get in i'm not even that good at this." I think what's interesting about that comment is despite the beginning of the episode where he says you know only the Joker can really understand what he's doing um he's admitting that he and the Joker are similar if he can get in if he can find a way then the Joker with his mastermind and and his level of intelligence he can get into yeah so in some ways he aligns himself you know with him francis can't understand why he is being picked on he insists that he's harmless that that he can't change the law he He's not even after the Joker he's got nothing to do with this he's completely harmless and in his sick mind that's the joke mr francis Francis is scratching himself there there seems to be he's been itching lately he thinks it might be stress related or something uh but but Batman realizes that he's been infected somehow get this man to a hospital now that's when a swordfish comes crashing in through the window starts releasing a toxin and no one is affected except for Francis francis begins going convulsing and going into the perma smile face and in a very awful way too the way that they animated this his eyes begin bulging so creepy yeah it's It's not a pleasant transformation and he's laughing hysterically batman realizes that that he's been infected and he gives him an antivenenom and it says that that this is all part of a binary compound francis had clearly received part one earlier today when he was slapped in the face and and Harley sprayed him with the perfume and now the second part of the compound is the gas that it was unleashed so no one else was going to be infected this was clearly meant for Francis but he has saved him and everything's fine except that there's another commercial and the Joker says "If I don't get legal claim to my fish by 3:00 a.m the number two bureaucrat Thomas Jackson will feel my wrath." Oh batman has a plan to protect Jackson and they're all standing around jackson is sitting in his chair batman is standing by the window a cat waddles his way in carrying a fish and this is one of Jackson's cats and uh the cat seems to also be affected it's affecting him look out [Music] uh and and goes to scratch the Batman mhm scratches Batman and Batman begins laughing hysterically his eyes begin bulging the perma smile the whole nine yards and we find out that Batman was actually disguised as Jackson in the chair jackson was disguised as Batman so again so again Batman is letting more people wear his C and cowl and the older the whole the the whole and I gotta say just looking at at the at Jackson in the Batman costume he's a fit guy he's looking good he's fit he's just He looks just like Batman maybe that was not Batman's costume that was just a kind of a No you No you used that once before that no cuz it has to fit you know Mr jackson jackson right yeah yeah so he probably had you know kind of a a cheap copy made so that he could wear it i mean the cat wouldn't wouldn't know the difference turns out the cat the cat does know yeah the cat's going straight for the right guy regardless of what he's wearing even drugged the cat went straight for its master and they look at the fish and and realize that it's a Japanese tang and it's not native to Gotham's waters so they're they're wondering where this fish came from harvey Bulock's had enough he leaves he's angry he feels like he can do this on his own without the Batman's help turns out he could he He's a pretty good detective after all he goes straight to the aquarium and uh if it weren't for Harley Harley uses that famous gigantic revolver that we've seen with the the cork pop uh she shoots it and it ends up tying him up joker grabs him with a uh a hook and elevates him over a shark tank so he's going fishing with Harvey Bulock it's sort of determined that that would be a bad idea why spoil my sharkies appetite when I can feed him bigger fish let's talk about Harley here because Harley has been she's now sort of the classic Harley that that we know which is interesting to say because technically this is only the second time that we've seen her harley is now the loyal sidekick she is only in the Harley Quinn outfit for which she's known throughout this episode she is calling him Puddin she appears to have a little bit more of that enamored quality about her uh he offers her the opportunity to be his little mermaid right before he slaps a big fish uh costume onto her and and she says "You're really sick you know that boss?" Yeah so let's let's talk about Harley and the Joker's relationship so far in this episode well you're right we see more of a connected romantic relationship here compared to that first time that we we saw Harley yeah so we get the sense that they you know they're attracted to each other they have this unique relationship but we're starting to see some additional signs that he's coercive that he's abusive that he manipulates her we also see signs that he's that he likes her he's affectionate towards her he uses you know he doesn't use the same nicknames and stuff that she does but he's flirty with her he's flirtatious he's charming and and she he's kept her on like we've never we've never seen him carry on a sidekick before this is someone from a previous heist that went wrong and she's right there with him yeah but as you pointed out he has done some things that are problematic that there are signs that you know we should worry about like when they have that commercial he's um force-feeding her to eat whatever fish uh yeah she she really doesn't like fish but he is force-feeding her and she she ends up throwing it up yeah he uses that um that big disguise that fish head on her throws that on her so nothing in of course nothing too violent yet but we're seeing that he's he's definitely taking advantage of her and he's kind of using her to get at get what he wants yeah and it's unclear now what he wants he I'm not really convinced that he wants profits from from the fish in in the Gotham Bay i think that he he actually wants to be close to Batman again and I was going to bring that up i I'm now wondering does this mean that he's shifting more toward borderline again because this entire route this entire setup seems to be almost solely to bring Batman to the aquarium so that they can hang out together and that uh once again Batman can be put into some kind of danger caused by the Joker but but the Joker doesn't really seem to really want the profit from the fish he wants the interaction with Batman right it it's almost like he's either lost focus or that was never the intention anyway yeah it was solely the catalyst yeah and and I agree you know to to quickly review borderline because we talked about borderline personality disorder early on uh in Christmas with the Joker borderline is one of those personality disorders so again it's that pervasive long-standing a lifelong type of condition characterized by uh a number of different traits that um that would be problematic in regards to relationships in regards to um emotion regulation and we had hypothesized that that the Joker's interest and even flirtation with Batman and his his interest in in sort of having this violent relationship with him if you will where he would risk his own life risk Batman's life just to kind of stay close with him to be connected with him in some way was indicative of some of these traits right some of the essential features of borderline personality disorder is that pattern of instability in interpersonal relationships okay it's um problems confusion with someone's self-image and as I said difficulty with affect or emotion regulation and there's a lot of impulsivity associated with with this disorder um what I mean by impulsivity is you know not really thinking about the consequences self harm um you know threatening other people threatening oneself just really kind of the you know the self-injurious type of behavior that that we've talked about before that's probably the one element that I'm not sure he fits into in that he seems to know the consequences he he he seems to be very wellthought out he's not so much impulsive uh he will threaten people absolutely he will do things to other people absolutely but he always seems to sort of know what's at stake but he does it anyway like he's okay with that so you're saying that even though he thinks about the consequences he doesn't care what those are it could involve hurting other people and it doesn't matter to him right you know and and that's indicative of some signs of antisocial personality disorder which we talked about in Be a Clown in um Joker's Favor yeah where he has no remorse he doesn't he doesn't care that he might be hurting other people and antisocial personality disorder is another one of those i mean of course it's another personality disorder a lifelong pervasive cluster of characteristics now this time with this particular personality disorder the it's characterized by lack of emotion by lack of remorse um again not really being u not really being affected that you might be hurting someone that you might be um endangering them and there could even be some kind of thrill or pleasure derived from violating the rights of other people let's talk about that because that's a perfect leadin to what he then ends up doing he admits that he shouldn't kill Bulock right away because feeding the sharks would fill them up and they wouldn't be willing to eat Batman so Batman does in fact come in and here's another case of where Batman is constantly dark constantly shadows the way that they've animated this is is once again sort of how I would like to continue to see Batman animated where you don't get very good looks at him but they catch him and he offers himself up to take Harvey's place i'm the one you're after harley cups him i think I'll start using my toxin on cattle joker burgers talk about a happy meal oh you never could take a joke once again Batman no sense of humor you know you're like he's about to beat him to a shark i'm not sure that it's the time for for Batman to consider the humor hey Joker pushes both Batman and Bulock into the tank and uh Batman this is where it totally gets really just Bruce Tim paul Deany batman rides the shark yeah he does jumps onto the shark puts the cuffs into the shark's mouth uses them as rains begins to steer him around uh he runs into the aquarium glass cracking it comes back through does it again the Joker uh is enjoying all of this immensely which is perfectly illustrating your point that he has put them in this situation and loves it yeah it's it's a thrill to see this you know is Batman going to survive is Bulock going to survive um oh man the shark just crashed through the tank and waters everywhere i mean there's there's this enjoyment this this really kind of basic pleasure out of seeing this chaos and violence and and that's really you know that that's kind of the disturbing aspect of the Joker once the shark crashes through Joker realizes that he might be in a little bit of trouble goes up trying to get out of here he goes up onto the roof leaves Harley by the way leaves Harley yeah so he's not really he doesn't care at this point her life is in danger and he just abandons her so we're going with we're still going with the antisocial personality i mean that's indicative of again someone who doesn't have remorse someone who's not thinking of other people's um you know their Yeah he he leaves yeah and Batman chases him and they they end up fighting one another and Batman slaps him just straight up backhand slaps This is kind of a violent scene because the Joker takes a wrench and we see him just smash it onto Batman and then Batman throws punches that there's a there's definitely a lot of um a lot of aggressive fighting and I'm it's kind of surprising to see that you know now to see that that's what animated shows used to be well and Joker runs over to the edge batman says "There's no place left to go Joker." Once again showing that the Joker has thought of everything and he even says it the Joker jumps off the edge in midair inflates a sort of raft toy you know inflatable thing donut around himself um only realizing in midair that he is landing in the water that the shark has sought for uh for refuge like the he is now jumping into sharkinfested waters oh snap oh snap shark snap get it oh no no oh and Joker isn't seen or heard from again all we see is the Joker's card floating at top the water yeah and Harley is crying before she's taken away oh my poor poor pudding yeah it's sad it is sad come on he was a demented abusive psychotic maniac yeah I'm really going to miss him yeah it's that actually that little that little piece of dialogue says a lot that this man is abusive and that you're better off without him and she in turn admits that that's what she loved about him that she has this unhealthy relationship with him and um you know and again we see more of that unhealthy relationship here in this episode than the one before where does she go from here where does she goes to Arkham Asylum no I understand oh but she is deserving of receiving some kind of psychotherapy and rehabilitation in Arkham Asylum that should be part of her you know part of of what she's owed and um I don't know that she gets that mhm does she have an upper hand when being treated at the the asylum yeah she does and that she knows what she's owed she knows what she's deserving of in in a place that she's receiving mental health care so that's on her side she should absolutely employ that knowledge and demand you know she has the right to to some of these um interventions some of the support and education that she should get in order to recover if she doesn't want to recover though and she knows how it works how the system works not just the asylum and and the the how that particular system works that hierarchy i I'm referring to the actual methods of psychological treatment if she were a former psychiatrist and she understands how that works can she then use it to her own she can fight it she can know what to say to know how to manipulate her you know professional caregivers and and her psych psychiatrist and it's possible that she can manipulate her way out of Arkham Asylum and although this was not an episode that covered the animated series two weeks ago we covered Assault on Arkham the recently released DC animated film and there's a lot going on there regarding Harley and the Joker and their relationship and her um and her knowledge of the mental health system so I would recommend that folks if they haven't already done so check back a couple of weeks ago and listen to that episode as we really delve into their relationship perfect okay so we've talked about the Joker we've we've talked a little bit about Harley we've talked about their relationship your assessment after five episodes is the Joker now still going down the the path of antisocial personality disorder or is he bouncing back and forth between that and borderline yeah I I think that he certainly meets a lot of that criteria and it doesn't mean that he won't meet criteria for borderline personality disorder he can have both there can be what we call a comorbid diagnosis of borderline and antisocial personality disorder okay um but you know I I think there's more evidence for antisocial personality disorder um but you know and I think more we would need more information about his unstable relationships his motivations behind his you know why he pursues Harley why he pursues Batman and you know that would help us to understand whether he's meeting criteria for borderline so the way if if you're interested in how I would how I would kind of document this I would say that his primary diagnosis is antisocial personality disorder and a rule out a working diagnosis perhaps or a secondary diagnosis would be borderline personality disorder so it sounds like this sort of thing is clearly complicated especially when you're talking about someone like the Joker i highly recommend that if you have questions as listeners and you're interested in antisocial personality disorder borderline personality disorder or really anything that we've talked about you should absolutely write in to [email protected] or go over to underthemaskonline.com and email Drea uh there she is a wealth of information and has no problem just talking about this stuff i also want to point out that this week is National Suicide Prevention Week um Wednesday September 10th is National Suicide Prevention Day and we of course this is something that we've talked about on our show several times we have um also talked about what number to call if someone is feeling um hopeless they don't know what to do or they're having thoughts of suicide that of course is the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline that number is 1 800-273 talk again 1-800273 talk that's 8255 so I think that's it for this week it was a great opportunity to take a look at the Joker once again for his fifth time and Harley for her third and I'm looking forward to seeing what I imagine will be the Joker teamed up with Harley once again i don't think it's the last that we've seen of the Joker how about you no I mean clearly he is one of the favorites and as as we well know she is now developing into um a very you know a more complex and very fascinating character yeah looking forward to it drea where can people find you online i am at Twitter Arkham Asylum my website is underthemaskonline.com and I am bard 028 we can also be reached via email [email protected] you can also find us on Twitter together we are arkhamsessions next week we are going to take a look at uh another interesting episode this one's a brand new villain for us in fact we get to deal with ninjas i know i'm very excited about ninjas you can never really go wrong with a good ninja episode but it's actually called Night of the Ninja and uh that one will be next week so until then I'm Brian Ward i'm Dr andrea Lati and we are the Arkham Sessions [Music] yeah [Music] heat [Music]

[Music] heat up here [Music] hey there Gothamites brian Ward here with another episode of the Arkham Sessions brought to you by Comics Alliance and with me as always the absolutely fantastic psychologist to the superheroes the superheroins and of course the super villains Dr andrea Letmendy this is a podcast that's dedicated to the psychology of Batman the animated series every week we tackle a new episode we talk about the characters the villains and you know the relationships between them and I try to lift out the psychological themes and talk about some of the very real and hopefully some interesting topics and phenomena that are specific to psychology yeah and last week we may have touched a psychological nerve with some people uh might have been sort of because of something I may or may not have said of course of course I'm referring to Robin's Reckoning Part Two if you've not listened to it toward the end of the show I hypothesized that maybe Batman at some point in time in his history could have come in contact with Joe Chill the man responsible for the murder of Thomas and Martha Wayne Bruce's parents and that it's possible that he went over the line and that it's possible he may have even killed Joe Chill this of course sent shock waves through Geekdom and uh I'm partially sorry for that but it got people talking and that's exactly what we wanted well remember I didn't disagree with you you had pointed out that it could explain why he has this kind of you know he protects Robin from getting involved with Zuko's case yeah and you know I thought it was plausible because you know we we talked about the idea that Batman may truly believe that he's beyond the point of recovery right that you know sure he he acknowledges that he and Robin experienced very similar traumas as as children they both lost their parents they both saw this happen and something is is he truly believes that he is unable to recover from that that he has lost a part of his life but that Robin Dick Grayson is you know that there's hope for him that he could have a more normal life but he's got to stay away from you know some of the very things that that I think Bruce Wayne believes um you know caused him to go down the this dark path so to speak yeah i mean he he specifically tells Dick as a 11-year-old boy "But it will get better in time for you." And we we pointed on that a couple of times implying that it won't get any better for Bruce bruce will never be rid of the Batman persona he will never fully feel like he is over the death of his parents and I I think that is very important but I will say that and all of this sort of was spawned by a tweet we received that specifically said Brian Ward's actually he says brain but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt there brian Ward's attempts at creating interest by pushing off-the-wall theories is driving me nuts you know yikes yeah so what do you do to these people i I gotta say it's not that off-the-wall and I also have to say it's not a theory it's a hypothesis but when you go back the the point of this show is to look at these characters as they grow as they evolve as they go from one episode to the next and here we're 35 episodes in we have seen the Joker uh you know who we will talk about in this episode we have seen Scarecrow we have seen Mr freeze we have seen people and we have seen their arcs the one constant is Bruce/B Bruce Wayne/Batman and I don't think it's unfair to say that since Per chance to dream where he was given the opportunity to live a perfect life and turned it down because he was haunted by the Batman you did this to me i don't think it's unfair to say that that it it's possible it wasn't the mission that he was haunted by it could have been his past it could have been who Batman is because of something he did early in his career i mean even in uh the flashbacks to Robin as a young boy as young Dick Grayson even at that point Jim Gordon is referring to Batman to others as the Batman or this Batman he he specifically says this Batman's got to look a real spooked so he's not as familiar with this this vigilante it's possible that that that this was toward the beginning of Batman's own career in Gotham City so I don't think it's unheard of to think that it's possible that he tracked down Joe Chill the same way Dick Grayson is trying to track down Tony Zuko mhm i don't think it's uh unreasonable to think that he may have reached the same limit that Dick Grayson as Robin reaches when he finally gets Zuko in his clutches he nearly kills him you're through Zuko forever right had Batman not been there he probably would have mhm it's not unreasonable to think Batman went through that exact same situation and and he seems so hellbent on keeping Dick from going down the same path one has to wonder why i posit this i get that it's a 22-minute show i get that it's got to and in this case a 44minute show because it's a two-parter but I if if Robin was going to go out and find Zuko on his own I get why Batman might be nervous because Batman wouldn't necessarily be there to help Robin that's not the case batman had Robin in the Batmobile took him home dropped him off and then left i firmly believe when Batman says "I didn't want to see him take you too." I don't think Robin was genuinely in danger i don't think Tony Zuko was going to be able to take on both Batman and Robin like I I don't think Robin was going to die uh right so I mean you're referring to the idea that Batman was talking about Dick Grayson's um healthy functioning yeah that if he were to continue this path Tony Zuko as crazy as that man is as violent as dangerous um but also with the potential that he embodies the revenge Yeah that Robin is seeking that if Robin you know finds him and and you know enacts this his feelings of hatred and and guilt and shame and all the things that he's experiencing he may cross the line yeah and that's where that's one line that I think Batman thinks you can't return from that once you cross that line you're forever gone um psychologically speaking and we see Robin sort of going down that path as he starts to say things like "I've waited a long time." He is reaching that point of no return even in that moment and I I think it's fair to say that in my logic Batman probably didn't think Robin was in physical danger right if they took on Zuko together right well right and here's the thing it's not just about this episode like what I'm hearing from you is that you are you're coming up with these hypotheses and you're expressing them and it's coming out of a place of curiosity it's coming out of a place of knowing the Batman universe and lore and and you know clearly you're expressing things that I think other people might be thinking about or have questions about so you know occasionally you know I I don't know about your ginger theories we we entertain them once in a while but I think for the most part you're raising questions that most people whether they're in this field of psychology or not would be asking yeah i I want to make it very clear that this tweet and I think this this part of the tweet kind of rubbed me the wrong way a little bit i'm I'm okay with criticism by the way if you've got criticism please let us know but he is suggesting that I am attempting to create interest and I'm I'm I'm putting forth these hypotheses that are offthe-wall solely for quote unquote the ratings let me just say for the record off air you are constantly asking questions about Batman's functioning and why he does what he does i mean we this is one of the reasons uh that we thought to even start this show is so that we can sit down and really talk about Batman's psych psychology about his functioning and so among other things in the animated series so it's very clear i want to make it even clearer that for the record you're not bringing up these hypotheses to um you know to get some kind of reaction from me or from listeners yeah I had a very pleasant conversation with Sunochamp on Twitter who who doesn't think that he killed Joe Chill but certainly thinks it's interesting to think about certainly acknowledges that Dick Grayson grounded Batman in some way actually made him a little lighter it's not a coincidence that Batman is portrayed darker before he met Dick Grayson or maybe just after he met Dick Grayson to the way that he is portrayed now and um and then of course uh our good friend of the show Bernardo Sha uh I I couldn't possibly thank enough because he wrote a fantastic email in support now he reminded me of things i've been reading Batman since I was a wee lad but I had even forgotten some of these cases and Bernard O'Shea jumped right on them now now in these these particular story lines Batman didn't kill Joe Chill but he certainly got really close and then just like Robin decided not to and then usually by the end of the story Joe Chill died anyway usually kind of by accident but uh he pointed out uh in Batman Year 2 which uh for those who don't know is Detective Comics 5752578 uh basically the whole plot is Batman is kind of teaming up with Joe Chill uh in order to uh to fight the Reaper and there comes a time when Batman has the opportunity to exact revenge for his parents um on Joe Chill and doesn't of course the Reaper ends up getting Joe Chill but then there is an episode of Batman the Brave and the Bold uh called The Chill of of Night and and that is actually considered one of the best episodes of that animated series and uh and and it's written by Paul Deany so uh it certainly has some some bit of connection but again Batman is is presented with an opportunity to kill Joe Chill decides not to joe may or may not make it out of that episode uh anyway oh wow um you know and and then you've got cases like I don't know Batman Begins where uh you know Bruce Wayne is specifically going to Joe Chill's trial with a gun in his pocket ready to kill him he doesn't get the opportunity but there's no reason to believe that he wouldn't have had someone not done it you know in the hallway of of the courtroom well and the the common thread here among all these stories both in comics and film is that there's this enter he entertains the idea of murdering Joe Chill he thinks about and prepares and is ready to end the life of the person that ended his parents' life ended his parents' lives I should say so that I think is the realistic part of this and I think I think that what's great about that commonality is that he's willing to do it there are points in his life when he's willing to do it and again that's very realistic when you talk to folks who are recovering from an interpersonal trauma like that that's one of the first things they want to do they want to end the life of they they want to cause the same pain that that person caused them so you know of course we don't see Batman do it but I think that if this raises questions for us maybe that wasn't the intent but it raises questions for us wow he must have really gone to a dark place yeah and it certainly suggests that that Batman doesn't want Dick to have to go through that same dark place it might even suggest that he's not 100% sure Dick is ready to be at that place and and we see that Dick might just be on the other side of the right place like he that you know but had Batman not been there we don't know what would have happened so um it's fair to say and by the way I will point out there's the Jeff Loe story uh Dark Victory where where we actually see a similar situation where Robin is chasing down uh his Joe Hill Tony Zuko and uh Zuko actually dies of a heart back so you know like you know Robin Robin didn't do it but but you know like he he was given the opportunity so so offthe-wall no and in all these stories it's interesting that Zuko or or Joe Chill end up dying in some other way yeah as if to say like the pain ends here yeah we also had a fantastic email from Kyle Varama varama um sorry i'm hoping one of those pronunciations was correct but Kyle actually talks a little bit about the uh the episode Robin's Reckoning and how uh it reminded him of something that is going on in his own life and I thought that it was important to to note it and and luckily he was he was okay with us talking about it on the show but he actually emailed and said uh that the idea of Bruce taking in Dick with the hope that Dick will not grow up to be like Bruce resonates in his own life he says "I volunteer at my church as a youth group leader i've worked with fifth and sixth graders middle school teenagers and I'm now working with high school teenagers i take that same mentality of wanting to help steer these teenagers away from paths that I've taken i feel like I'm helping the kid I once was much like how Bruce does when he has Robin by his side uh listening to these episodes made me reflect on that aspect of my life i just want to thank you for that and I look forward to more episodes from you so definitely uh I I think these shows are uh taking on sort of a whole new life and we thank for Kyle we thank Kyle for emailing us on that what a nice note yeah it's conversations like this that really get me revved up i enjoy them i enjoy talking with people about different possibilities and I appreciate everyone who tweeted us everyone who emailed us uh you guys are the absolute best and uh we we like to keep that conversation going so send us more tweets whether it's Arkham Sessions or at Arkham Asylum or BW028 send us emails arkhamsessions@gmail.com uh or underthe mask online and and you know let's keep this conversation going whether it's specifically this one or this episode coming up let's talk about this and people can disagree with us it's happened before but I think you know we don't have other ulterior motives about why we we bring up the ideas that we bring up it's it's a lot of times it's your perception and your opinion versus mine now I I tend to have that academic scientific background so that's what I try to bring to folks but you know again you're asking the questions that other people have too and so when you when those are raised I want to have that discussion um so keep up the good work brain thank you i I will do just that so let's talk about this episode we are of course talking about The Laughing Fish an absolute fan favorite and for good reason it was written by Paul Deany directed by Bruce Tim so at the very least we know we're going to have an amazingly entertaining episode if nothing else and this is an opportunity for us to take a look at one of our favorite characters the Joker and his accomplice Harley Quinn it's her second appearance right on the show uh but it is the Joker's fifth appearance the very first time that we were introduced to him during Christmas of the Joker you were kind of leaning toward uh if I remember correctly borderline personality disorder because he seemed to have an emotional connection toward Batman and wanted to spend Christmas Eve with him and then since then you have sort of slid into antisocial personality disorder so we'll talk about whether you think it is still the case or not as we go forward through the episode well of course with Deanie and Tim behind the episode it's it's always going to be a blast it's always going to be well written of course Joker episodes tend to be adventurous full of action and very weird plots weird plots and of course um violence you know he is of all the villains he is the one who's I would say the most violent the most unpredictable yeah let's go through it so we start out Joker is at large again they they just can't keep him what's really funny is whenever we see him in Arkham Asylum he seems to be enjoying himself you know behind his Yeah glass door he He's playing cards or he's you know whatever i think I think he's always just sort of waiting his time out he knows that he's going to escape again he's developing some sort of scheme i will give Joker that he is always very wellplanned and ready to go so uh I think that's probably what he's doing while he's enjoying himself in Arkham Asylum but he has escaped and he is still at large batman appears to basically be waiting for the Joker to make his move because we in the very beginning of the episode see it group of fishermen come in they are bringing in their catch and uh they they lay it down on the the pier and and all of the fish look like the Joker they're all white and have the perma smiles they've got the green fins they definitely you know the big red lips they are uh they have definitely been affected in some way shape or form with the Joker's toxin he's made his move that's what he was waiting for he was waiting for the fish he got the fish yeah uh well now what batman takes one of the fish into the batcave in order to analyze it and uh once again Batman has no sense of humor dining in tonight sir the dissection tray please Alfred clearly your butler is making a joke here and no time for that ain't got time for that harley and Joker enter what appears to be it's a patent office essentially and the Joker wants a patent on this fish he wants a piece of every fish sold only to be told that that kind of thing doesn't happen you can't patent fish you can't trademark this well and his his reasoning is that now all the fish in Gotham Bay uh have have the Joker permile on them he owns them now they have his trademark so therefore he's entitled to any profits millions of dollars a day to finance my happily hedonistic lifestyle yeah and when he's told by Mr g carl Francis at the office that that sort of thing doesn't happen he slaps him upside the face with a fish and uh Harley complains ooh fishing [Music] sprays a little pink perfume on him this can't be good and uh they all walk away but the Joker makes it clear that this guy has got very little time to change his mind as if he could otherwise you'll be the poorest fish of all [Laughter] [Music] we then go back to Batman dissecting the fish and he has determined that there is a particular toxin that the Joker has used that is only affecting the fish it's not something that can affect the humans in the same way they're joyful and jolly fish say mom wondering what to feed the family tonight what will I feed the family tonight try me famous Joker fish joker's making himself very clear coming to your local store just as soon as that nasty old Mr g carl Francis decides to give me my legal cut of the province i want my piece mhm and he thinks it's a legal piece like he he's like "No no no this is I am entitled to this legally." I don't think he cares about the logic or the legality i think at this point he's his threats are you know it's really a part of his personality he doesn't care whether he's in the right or wrong he wants what he wants yeah the cops put Mr francis under protection he doesn't understand why he's being picked on but uh the Batman gets in and in an interesting way they they're like "Don't worry this is locked down and you're under protection batman comes from the shadows dressed as a security guard or as a cop undresses he's still wearing the cowl and the cape and everything under the costume how the cape fit down into the pants it's part of you know it's a little weird but but he says "If I got in this easily so will the Joker." He's kind of he's either giving the Joker a a lot of due credit by saying "Look Joker's on my level if I can get in Joker can." Or he's making the Joker out to be better than he in that he's like "Look if I can get in Joker can totally get in i'm not even that good at this." I think what's interesting about that comment is despite the beginning of the episode where he says you know only the Joker can really understand what he's doing um he's admitting that he and the Joker are similar if he can get in if he can find a way then the Joker with his mastermind and and his level of intelligence he can get into yeah so in some ways he aligns himself you know with him francis can't understand why he is being picked on he insists that he's harmless that that he can't change the law he He's not even after the Joker he's got nothing to do with this he's completely harmless and in his sick mind that's the joke mr francis Francis is scratching himself there there seems to be he's been itching lately he thinks it might be stress related or something uh but but Batman realizes that he's been infected somehow get this man to a hospital now that's when a swordfish comes crashing in through the window starts releasing a toxin and no one is affected except for Francis francis begins going convulsing and going into the perma smile face and in a very awful way too the way that they animated this his eyes begin bulging so creepy yeah it's It's not a pleasant transformation and he's laughing hysterically batman realizes that that he's been infected and he gives him an antivenenom and it says that that this is all part of a binary compound francis had clearly received part one earlier today when he was slapped in the face and and Harley sprayed him with the perfume and now the second part of the compound is the gas that it was unleashed so no one else was going to be infected this was clearly meant for Francis but he has saved him and everything's fine except that there's another commercial and the Joker says "If I don't get legal claim to my fish by 3:00 a.m the number two bureaucrat Thomas Jackson will feel my wrath." Oh batman has a plan to protect Jackson and they're all standing around jackson is sitting in his chair batman is standing by the window a cat waddles his way in carrying a fish and this is one of Jackson's cats and uh the cat seems to also be affected it's affecting him look out [Music] uh and and goes to scratch the Batman mhm scratches Batman and Batman begins laughing hysterically his eyes begin bulging the perma smile the whole nine yards and we find out that Batman was actually disguised as Jackson in the chair jackson was disguised as Batman so again so again Batman is letting more people wear his C and cowl and the older the whole the the whole and I gotta say just looking at at the at Jackson in the Batman costume he's a fit guy he's looking good he's fit he's just He looks just like Batman maybe that was not Batman's costume that was just a kind of a No you No you used that once before that no cuz it has to fit you know Mr jackson jackson right yeah yeah so he probably had you know kind of a a cheap copy made so that he could wear it i mean the cat wouldn't wouldn't know the difference turns out the cat the cat does know yeah the cat's going straight for the right guy regardless of what he's wearing even drugged the cat went straight for its master and they look at the fish and and realize that it's a Japanese tang and it's not native to Gotham's waters so they're they're wondering where this fish came from harvey Bulock's had enough he leaves he's angry he feels like he can do this on his own without the Batman's help turns out he could he He's a pretty good detective after all he goes straight to the aquarium and uh if it weren't for Harley Harley uses that famous gigantic revolver that we've seen with the the cork pop uh she shoots it and it ends up tying him up joker grabs him with a uh a hook and elevates him over a shark tank so he's going fishing with Harvey Bulock it's sort of determined that that would be a bad idea why spoil my sharkies appetite when I can feed him bigger fish let's talk about Harley here because Harley has been she's now sort of the classic Harley that that we know which is interesting to say because technically this is only the second time that we've seen her harley is now the loyal sidekick she is only in the Harley Quinn outfit for which she's known throughout this episode she is calling him Puddin she appears to have a little bit more of that enamored quality about her uh he offers her the opportunity to be his little mermaid right before he slaps a big fish uh costume onto her and and she says "You're really sick you know that boss?" Yeah so let's let's talk about Harley and the Joker's relationship so far in this episode well you're right we see more of a connected romantic relationship here compared to that first time that we we saw Harley yeah so we get the sense that they you know they're attracted to each other they have this unique relationship but we're starting to see some additional signs that he's coercive that he's abusive that he manipulates her we also see signs that he's that he likes her he's affectionate towards her he uses you know he doesn't use the same nicknames and stuff that she does but he's flirty with her he's flirtatious he's charming and and she he's kept her on like we've never we've never seen him carry on a sidekick before this is someone from a previous heist that went wrong and she's right there with him yeah but as you pointed out he has done some things that are problematic that there are signs that you know we should worry about like when they have that commercial he's um force-feeding her to eat whatever fish uh yeah she she really doesn't like fish but he is force-feeding her and she she ends up throwing it up yeah he uses that um that big disguise that fish head on her throws that on her so nothing in of course nothing too violent yet but we're seeing that he's he's definitely taking advantage of her and he's kind of using her to get at get what he wants yeah and it's unclear now what he wants he I'm not really convinced that he wants profits from from the fish in in the Gotham Bay i think that he he actually wants to be close to Batman again and I was going to bring that up i I'm now wondering does this mean that he's shifting more toward borderline again because this entire route this entire setup seems to be almost solely to bring Batman to the aquarium so that they can hang out together and that uh once again Batman can be put into some kind of danger caused by the Joker but but the Joker doesn't really seem to really want the profit from the fish he wants the interaction with Batman right it it's almost like he's either lost focus or that was never the intention anyway yeah it was solely the catalyst yeah and and I agree you know to to quickly review borderline because we talked about borderline personality disorder early on uh in Christmas with the Joker borderline is one of those personality disorders so again it's that pervasive long-standing a lifelong type of condition characterized by uh a number of different traits that um that would be problematic in regards to relationships in regards to um emotion regulation and we had hypothesized that that the Joker's interest and even flirtation with Batman and his his interest in in sort of having this violent relationship with him if you will where he would risk his own life risk Batman's life just to kind of stay close with him to be connected with him in some way was indicative of some of these traits right some of the essential features of borderline personality disorder is that pattern of instability in interpersonal relationships okay it's um problems confusion with someone's self-image and as I said difficulty with affect or emotion regulation and there's a lot of impulsivity associated with with this disorder um what I mean by impulsivity is you know not really thinking about the consequences self harm um you know threatening other people threatening oneself just really kind of the you know the self-injurious type of behavior that that we've talked about before that's probably the one element that I'm not sure he fits into in that he seems to know the consequences he he he seems to be very wellthought out he's not so much impulsive uh he will threaten people absolutely he will do things to other people absolutely but he always seems to sort of know what's at stake but he does it anyway like he's okay with that so you're saying that even though he thinks about the consequences he doesn't care what those are it could involve hurting other people and it doesn't matter to him right you know and and that's indicative of some signs of antisocial personality disorder which we talked about in Be a Clown in um Joker's Favor yeah where he has no remorse he doesn't he doesn't care that he might be hurting other people and antisocial personality disorder is another one of those i mean of course it's another personality disorder a lifelong pervasive cluster of characteristics now this time with this particular personality disorder the it's characterized by lack of emotion by lack of remorse um again not really being u not really being affected that you might be hurting someone that you might be um endangering them and there could even be some kind of thrill or pleasure derived from violating the rights of other people let's talk about that because that's a perfect leadin to what he then ends up doing he admits that he shouldn't kill Bulock right away because feeding the sharks would fill them up and they wouldn't be willing to eat Batman so Batman does in fact come in and here's another case of where Batman is constantly dark constantly shadows the way that they've animated this is is once again sort of how I would like to continue to see Batman animated where you don't get very good looks at him but they catch him and he offers himself up to take Harvey's place i'm the one you're after harley cups him i think I'll start using my toxin on cattle joker burgers talk about a happy meal oh you never could take a joke once again Batman no sense of humor you know you're like he's about to beat him to a shark i'm not sure that it's the time for for Batman to consider the humor hey Joker pushes both Batman and Bulock into the tank and uh Batman this is where it totally gets really just Bruce Tim paul Deany batman rides the shark yeah he does jumps onto the shark puts the cuffs into the shark's mouth uses them as rains begins to steer him around uh he runs into the aquarium glass cracking it comes back through does it again the Joker uh is enjoying all of this immensely which is perfectly illustrating your point that he has put them in this situation and loves it yeah it's it's a thrill to see this you know is Batman going to survive is Bulock going to survive um oh man the shark just crashed through the tank and waters everywhere i mean there's there's this enjoyment this this really kind of basic pleasure out of seeing this chaos and violence and and that's really you know that that's kind of the disturbing aspect of the Joker once the shark crashes through Joker realizes that he might be in a little bit of trouble goes up trying to get out of here he goes up onto the roof leaves Harley by the way leaves Harley yeah so he's not really he doesn't care at this point her life is in danger and he just abandons her so we're going with we're still going with the antisocial personality i mean that's indicative of again someone who doesn't have remorse someone who's not thinking of other people's um you know their Yeah he he leaves yeah and Batman chases him and they they end up fighting one another and Batman slaps him just straight up backhand slaps This is kind of a violent scene because the Joker takes a wrench and we see him just smash it onto Batman and then Batman throws punches that there's a there's definitely a lot of um a lot of aggressive fighting and I'm it's kind of surprising to see that you know now to see that that's what animated shows used to be well and Joker runs over to the edge batman says "There's no place left to go Joker." Once again showing that the Joker has thought of everything and he even says it the Joker jumps off the edge in midair inflates a sort of raft toy you know inflatable thing donut around himself um only realizing in midair that he is landing in the water that the shark has sought for uh for refuge like the he is now jumping into sharkinfested waters oh snap oh snap shark snap get it oh no no oh and Joker isn't seen or heard from again all we see is the Joker's card floating at top the water yeah and Harley is crying before she's taken away oh my poor poor pudding yeah it's sad it is sad come on he was a demented abusive psychotic maniac yeah I'm really going to miss him yeah it's that actually that little that little piece of dialogue says a lot that this man is abusive and that you're better off without him and she in turn admits that that's what she loved about him that she has this unhealthy relationship with him and um you know and again we see more of that unhealthy relationship here in this episode than the one before where does she go from here where does she goes to Arkham Asylum no I understand oh but she is deserving of receiving some kind of psychotherapy and rehabilitation in Arkham Asylum that should be part of her you know part of of what she's owed and um I don't know that she gets that mhm does she have an upper hand when being treated at the the asylum yeah she does and that she knows what she's owed she knows what she's deserving of in in a place that she's receiving mental health care so that's on her side she should absolutely employ that knowledge and demand you know she has the right to to some of these um interventions some of the support and education that she should get in order to recover if she doesn't want to recover though and she knows how it works how the system works not just the asylum and and the the how that particular system works that hierarchy i I'm referring to the actual methods of psychological treatment if she were a former psychiatrist and she understands how that works can she then use it to her own she can fight it she can know what to say to know how to manipulate her you know professional caregivers and and her psych psychiatrist and it's possible that she can manipulate her way out of Arkham Asylum and although this was not an episode that covered the animated series two weeks ago we covered Assault on Arkham the recently released DC animated film and there's a lot going on there regarding Harley and the Joker and their relationship and her um and her knowledge of the mental health system so I would recommend that folks if they haven't already done so check back a couple of weeks ago and listen to that episode as we really delve into their relationship perfect okay so we've talked about the Joker we've we've talked a little bit about Harley we've talked about their relationship your assessment after five episodes is the Joker now still going down the the path of antisocial personality disorder or is he bouncing back and forth between that and borderline yeah I I think that he certainly meets a lot of that criteria and it doesn't mean that he won't meet criteria for borderline personality disorder he can have both there can be what we call a comorbid diagnosis of borderline and antisocial personality disorder okay um but you know I I think there's more evidence for antisocial personality disorder um but you know and I think more we would need more information about his unstable relationships his motivations behind his you know why he pursues Harley why he pursues Batman and you know that would help us to understand whether he's meeting criteria for borderline so the way if if you're interested in how I would how I would kind of document this I would say that his primary diagnosis is antisocial personality disorder and a rule out a working diagnosis perhaps or a secondary diagnosis would be borderline personality disorder so it sounds like this sort of thing is clearly complicated especially when you're talking about someone like the Joker i highly recommend that if you have questions as listeners and you're interested in antisocial personality disorder borderline personality disorder or really anything that we've talked about you should absolutely write in to arkham@gmail.com or go over to underthemaskonline.com and email Drea uh there she is a wealth of information and has no problem just talking about this stuff i also want to point out that this week is National Suicide Prevention Week um Wednesday September 10th is National Suicide Prevention Day and we of course this is something that we've talked about on our show several times we have um also talked about what number to call if someone is feeling um hopeless they don't know what to do or they're having thoughts of suicide that of course is the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline that number is 1 800-273 talk again 1-800273 talk that's 8255 so I think that's it for this week it was a great opportunity to take a look at the Joker once again for his fifth time and Harley for her third and I'm looking forward to seeing what I imagine will be the Joker teamed up with Harley once again i don't think it's the last that we've seen of the Joker how about you no I mean clearly he is one of the favorites and as as we well know she is now developing into um a very you know a more complex and very fascinating character yeah looking forward to it drea where can people find you online i am at Twitter Arkham Asylum my website is underthemaskonline.com and I am bard 028 we can also be reached via email arkhamsessions@gmail.com you can also find us on Twitter together we are arkhamsessions next week we are going to take a look at uh another interesting episode this one's a brand new villain for us in fact we get to deal with ninjas i know i'm very excited about ninjas you can never really go wrong with a good ninja episode but it's actually called Night of the Ninja and uh that one will be next week so until then I'm Brian Ward i'm Dr andrea Lati and we are the Arkham Sessions [Music] yeah [Music] heat [Music]

Transcript for:Psychological Analysis of Batman Characters

Transcript for:
Psychological Analysis of Batman Characters