have you ever heard of you must have heard of ahmed shalti amit shalki is is called known as the prince of poetry in egypt right he's very famous arab poet in the early part of the 20th century wrote verse praising mustafa kamal praising mustafa kamal because he saw him as a great military leader who defeated the british at gallipoli who defeated the greeks in the the war against greek greece right when mustafa kamal abolished shoki was shocked he was like uh he was in trauma he's written he's written a verse which is one of the most famous eulogies to the khilafah very moving people who read it they're in tears reading this okay when he wrote it mustafa sabri the same last mufti of the like said now you're mourning it now you criticize mustafa kamal but some of us could see this coming from before some of us could see through trajectory that the young turks and the nationalists and the secularists were going on others saw them as a means to an end they thought you know what these guys are trying to regain some prestige and power to the khilafah many pro-islamic pro-caliphate people thought even the young turks were doing something good or mustafa kamal was doing something good until they saw the final knife being stabbed in and then they realized the magnitude of what had happened in retrospect and muslims can be very trusting and make excuses for people when perhaps they ought to be looking at much more scrutiny legends 100 hd years ago this week in 1342 something calamitous before the ummah it was the official abolishment of the last caliphate we have today in this special islam 2017 scripted episode someone who is very dear to me a beloved brother and i consider him an elder brother and mentor uh of mine dr abdulwahed from hezbollah britain he's the uk uh chairman mashallah we talk about the history of the bit of the history of the khilafah what khilaf really means to him and obviously of course some of the juicy stuff what would he look like today how can we establish a serious and effective muslim unity globally once again just before we get into it just a quick reminder please do subscribe if you're into this kind of stuff so you get at the front of the queue whenever we publish something new give us a like or a comment get involved in the conversation and click this banner up here to help support some tenancy unscripted how are you doing alhamdulillah all well uh i mean we obviously you know this topic is an important one and we thought we can't talk about this you know topic the khilafah without inviting someone with a deeper kind of a special interest and a uh a background in this topic so it would be fair you know pointing our attention towards this topic i had no idea that um you know in my head the the the abolition of the khilafah the popular yeah is 1924 24 that's right which is i mean the centennial is going to be in three years but uh hide i never knew this until you uh until we spoke so uh 13 42 that's right the yeah i mean what some historians called the official abolition of the ottoman caliphate yeah so the khilafah is is often described as a system set off by the like prophet salallahu of um different kind of heads or or figureheads of the ummah in terms of the actual leader and we've been through many throughout history but before we get into the kind of the the meat and potatoes i just wanted to ask you what what does mean to you okay so means to me the political leadership of the muslim ummah the khalifa was otherwise called the imam admiral and the hadith of the prophet sallallahu alaihi one of the hadith which mentions this mentioned in sahih muslim narrated by abu hurairah that the messenger of allah said it is the children of israel they used to be governed by their prophets whenever one died there would be another prophet that succeeded him and there will be no prophet after me very famous line from the sunnah yes but there will be khalifas and the and there will be many and the sahaba asked him so what do you order us in relation to these he said he said fulfill your bayer to them your pledge to them so they took a pledge to rule according to kitab and sunnah according to islam from abu bakr siddiq to the success in this was the condition that they will rule according to islam and of course we know that many of the hakam sharia actually the method of their implementation really or or securing their implementation is through the khilafah so whether it's the establishment of the the prayer especially the jummah prayer the collection of the zakat the looking after the affairs of people in terms of providing health food shelter clothing education spreading islam to the world being the voice for islam on the world stage and in particular you know you look at the even even right to the tail end of the ottoman khilafah this was a a role that the the the the khalifas of that of that were actually playing a voice for islam in the world and and so a hundred years without an emir for the menin without an imam of the muslims without this sharia role being fulfilled is is a huge problem for us were there any times historically where we know we were in a similar position no not like this i mean there have been periods of conflict uh where the muslims aren't united under one khalifa one leader okay so yeah there have been but not not not like this so uh we know that in after the time of banu maya and the succession of abbas that there were there was a a remnant of the umayyad dynasty if you like in in and there have been and there have been other places like that which didn't if you like they set themselves up as their own sultanates or emirates and things like that but but not in the way that happened in the last hundred years where we've we've default gone to not just divided but ruling by other than islam dozens and dozens and dozens of them and drawn by the colonial uh powers for the most part um there's no there's no precedent in history and those other historical aberrants and there were aberrations that you know can't be used to justify the state we're in today although some people do actually um you know but that's the way it goes really yeah i mean i know this is going to be very hard for you but try and imagine i'm a complete ignoramus yeah yeah so historically speaking some people think you know khilafah or what you're describing is like some kind of bloody dictatorship you know and there's you know obviously you can find examples with you know what's it called fraticide or something yeah you know people killing their brothers to get power and and uh rival dynasties and all that kind of stuff so how would you describe how a khilafah in terms of you know the model that's been adopted historically how it's different to what some people might imagine what projections some maybe enemies of islam might give of this is some kind of you know bloody dictatorship it's it's a good question and i think objectively one can't describe 1300 years of khilafah as being without problems without flaws without a corrupt people without conflict that this is not this would not be true but it could still be khilafah right it could still be still fulfill the conditions of the sharia of of the khilafah that we know is the is the the gold standard that we aspire to look at and learn from is the khilaf and the the first the first five actually is the first five khalafa and then obviously people look at the the examples in islamic history of other who were very just and could could be described with that title and um have mercy on him is usually almost universally acknowledged with as being one of the righteously guided khalafar yeah um there are many problems appeared conflicts um and one of the problems is the corruption of this process if you like the first five khalafar were given the pledge freely in in slightly different ways actually but but given the prejudice they represented having the backing of the authority of and as dynastic rules started that bail process gets corrupted and with that corruption of abaya process you get all kinds of games where people are trying to keep a political dynasty within their succession and the khalifa should only come out of a small number of families or clans within a family and and this is kind of the thing that justified wrongly wrongly justified the idea that you could kill somebody else and so those things happen but salman those orientalist kind of magnifications of the problems of khilafah they pale into significance when you look at say the equivalent 1300 years of the history of europe which was you know ruled under the the the authority of the the the oppressive authority of the catholic church the spanish inquisition war conflict between states uh you know there's no comparison there's no comparison and more than that you said in your trailer for this look at the last hundred years talking about bloodshed how much bloodshed in anakba how much bloodshed in the war in algeria yeah estimates of like one and a half million people killed by that how much bloodshed in two gulf wars 91 and 2003 how much bloodshed in the iran iraq war and that's just a muslim and that's just the muslim and just but in more recent times syria yemen libya these conflicts can be traced to problems that existed from the demise of the khilafah in 1924 1342 and that's just the muslims and so when allah says if you don't muslims if you don't do the same if you don't unite as as only out of each other then there will be fitna on this earth and great facade yeah great corruption and that's on the earth allah says not not just for you muslims this is for humanity and that's the state we're in what they what happened in 1924 1342 was a destabilization of the middle east and the muslim world which the world is not recovering from to be honest with you it's it's still in that state of instability from what was created at that time and obviously that what happened then was the end of a series of problems but it wasn't an event in itself it was the culmination of of other problems basically i do want to get into the question of you know what happened um because that you know the thing with history is you can go down a rabbit hole and look at one thing yeah a lot of people have different kind of theories about where it went wrong so to speak and i do want to get into that but just for uh rewind back a few seconds you mentioned this phrase how do you describe this group this is the group who appoints the the the leader so they are if you like the people of uh who represent the authority of of the people of the of the of the um if you like so in the in the time of uh uh of the sahaba in the they were the senior sahaba who carried the respect of the leaders of the tribe the leaders that that could be the leaders of the tribe that they exist in if you like in in reality in every society you have the establishment the establishment or the aristocracy or the or the ones who carry the most respect okay um now in different societies that might manifest in different ways so in a very tribal society would definitely be the leaders of tribes in in in other societies it might not be represented that way it's entirely possible in fact in our because in fact and and you can draw that from the example of the first for right yeah yeah uh i mean i i do want to get into the discussion of what would if we're imagining kind of practically sure what would you know just that actually if you imagine if you had a free election and you had majlis which was a representative body then those people actually would carry legitimate representation of people so if those people ended up electing a ruler for the muslims that would carry the due authority yeah but similarly if you had a more tribal society you know that could be that it could be manifest through the leaders of tribes because in that society they would be representative of that i'd like to kind of think about you know separate between the maybe just historic kind of things that happen because of historical circumstance and the actual normative stuff yeah the things that we want to focus on saying this is intended by allah in and of itself you know so for example the notion of khulafa to me it's built up on so many evidences and and from the perspective of pragmatically from the perspective of prophet said you need to have someone who is appoint a leader even if there's just three of you traveling somewhere appoint a leader right um because pragmatically you need someone who you can who can represent the group you need someone who can make certain decisions who can judge between disputes who can be that you know final call for example in this consultation who can negotiate on your behalf right and the bigger the group the more people you have to you know they need it's going to be harder to survey each and every the more important the issue the more important so if you have to have a leader when three of you are traveling a more important issue than that you need to have a leader for yeah so if if there's 10 000 of you you know and you need to say you're in a local area for example you need to talk about you know planning permission or whatever right um or who do we make a trade deal with or who do we go to war with or whatever it's impossible practically to survey everyone but you have to have why it's impossible to survey every single person if there's thousands and thousands of you because you know you can't do that there has to be some kind of representative representative you can go to to negotiate that deal with and that representative can't just be some puppet because they're not going to be eventually if if the representative isn't echoing the the will of the masses they're going to get overthrown or uh there's going to be some kind of resentment it's not going you're not going to see a a stable kind of society civil society for a long period of time like we've seen in the muslim world for a thousand plus years stability and i think that's because the power has been there is a there's a weird paradox though between the the the guy in at the top being distant from the of to some extent distant from the daily kind of workings and the decision-making of you know the average person but at the same time he's a representative and they feel that even kind of um spiritual or ceremonial kind of connection that at least look for the big decisions for the macro level decisions who do we go to war with who do we make treaties with et cetera et cetera we've got someone looking at the muslim health of the whole ummah or a large amount of them but on on an actual practical day-to-day business level uh it seems historically and i'm no historian but the the majority of the ummah was just so it had their own independent kind of governors little city states or tribal areas or whatever but they had that ceremonial figure that they paid homage to and the thing is the bigger you get the harder it is to you know intervene and control people's direct kind of um uh affairs and and government so the prophet sallam he kind of spearheaded this it seems i mean we were just talking about his article that you you you mashallah you you you sent over amazing really opened my eyes in terms of the the detail with which the prophet sallam did things and govern certain things right um you know that he had certain people scribes to you know take down certain treaties and scribes to do this and that and um you know people appointed to collect zakah and jizya and people pointed to um judge people's disputes etc etc so he had all the the kind of the trappings that we had we understand now of a modern kind of government i don't want to say state because it has its own kind of but you get what i mean right um and one of those things was he he he sent governors and he he pioneered governors he pioneered this this thing of you know regional kind of uh governance and stuff and it's impossible practically for him to sallallahu you know directly communicate so there would there would be a such a degree for the majority of our history a degree of autonomy you know things only get escalated to the khalifa if maybe people are upset with the governor they want to overthrow him or whatever so that's a kind of so there's that it seems that like a kind of pragmatic system where in order for life to just exist for for societies to be safe and successful and prosperous you do need to have someone not one person but you need to have people representing uh other people and and the further up you go the bigger the the the size of that polity the less kind of interferences in every everyone's daily daily lives so that there needs to be some of this needs to be crystallized the danger of calling it there's a it's a pragmatic system could imply that anything will do as long as it meets the ends and that isn't necessarily true and certainly it isn't necessarily the sunnah if you like right um so you've pointed out some really important things what what is the sunnah ruling right um so the the the khalifa is the khalifah he's the he is the leader he's the amir of the mining and over 13 centuries the amir could be like who was the second khalifa of the muslims who ruled over a vast vast area geographically in those days without telephones and zoom calls and airplanes and fast road connections and text messages and stuff like that right so and he is undisputedly the emir of the minin right there's no ambiguity that he's ceremonial or anything like that so the khalifa is the amir and rasulallah also as you rightly say didn't even attempt to govern the affairs of the muslims on his own he had assistance may allah be pleased with them both he referred to them as his his his ministers was iran he said he has two in the in the earth and two in the heavens with meaning the angels so uh so so he had people to assist him with the day-to-day running so abu bakr may used to solve problems and then come back and consult with the prophet sallallahu alaihi salam he used to appoint governors right but he would appoint them they weren't they weren't kind of in his day they weren't um like elected but there was a very interesting relationship he would appoint governors but actually if people complained about those governors he would actually remove them so he understood really he showed us the concept of authority has to be a trusting relationship between the ruler and the rule and that's what bail is in its essence it's from the even the root uh well if you like delegated by the khalifa to to do the job and actually the while wali could be ruling by sharia he could be ruling justly right but he could have lost the trust of the people for other reasons and then there's an example when uh a tribe i think that with the tribe called abdul kais they were called they came to the messenger of allah and they complained to him about their wali and the prophet sallallahu alaihi islam removed that wiley and appointed a new one and just just gave the wali the advice look after look after them like treat the the the respected people from abductees properly otherwise he didn't say this in the narration but the implication being otherwise you don't have those trust of those leaders they're going to come back to me and i'm going to have to appoint another one basically yes so what you're saying is right in the sense that the the sunnah example shows that the amir doesn't rule by himself so in in the modern world where we have a muslim majority world stretching from indonesia in the far east to morocco in the in the west with the great technology that we have that ties people together much more easily you'd still have to practically whoever is the khalifa in jerusalem inshallah in battle will will still appoint walis [Laughter] no this is based on hadith you know that the future capital of khilafah will be in in bethlehem uh so uh inshallah so we pray we see that so so in this respect you're right you're also right but but this really is not i mean this is a different question that there's always the risk that the ruler or the amir in any given situation the head teacher in a school um can become distance from the grassroots that's that's the reality that can happen right it didn't happen with saiyan armor and and he made sure that didn't happen he was walking the streets at night to know what's happening on the ground if you like so so these are examples from the qualifier that we have to learn from yeah because because we meaning the muslims in future you think of the discussion so far folks interesting let us know in the comments what you think there's a great there's great so much um so many lessons about leadership just generally that we learn from the prophet saws from the first uh you know rightly guided caliphs and it's it's it's a big kind of shock to the system if somebody's just absorbed a particular notion of because we sitting here in the uk where we've absorbed so much um baggage from uh roman judeo-christian kind of tradition of what a leader is what a ruler is you know went from the emperor to the you know divine right of kings to god's kind of representative on earth in terms of you know whatever i say goes this is this is what god wants whatever the pope or the the king or whatever this is very a very different model to that and this baggage is something that affects us all around the world isn't it you if you travel to muslim majority countries people in their lifetimes they've only ever known one way of governance yeah which would mean fist well but but but actually okay they've only ever known one model of governance to look up to right which is the western democratic model yeah like we saw in washington in january where where a guy with a moose's outfit goes into into i mean i'm ridiculing that because it it does shake against the ruler and we live in the uk where we see it close up all its flaws really we we see how a working democracy works when you go one of the beautiful things about that article and any other article really really authentic article about islamic polity politics the the example of the messenger as a ruler is that look back to your own tradition not so that you go back to riding on camels and in the dust and this kind of nonsense that people know look back to the example and think authentically what comes from that what think of your own lessons and principles that come from that don't try and make that fit on to what you've been colonized into thinking is the right way of of ruling that's one of the very nice things about the article and just would clarify one thing which i'm sure what you said it is correct about there needing to be an amir because actually you can't function without an amir but the hadith i mentioned before and other hadith as well i mean there's some things islamically sorry the the hadith i mentioned before and the other hadith that they actually specify the fact that there needs to be a ruler for the muslims right that there needs to be one imam an imam one and one and very strong sanction for the the muslims if they you know start dividing i mean there are certain things which are to abu dia right that that are related to um that the the the means which allah intended in particular yes yeah yeah like for example you need someone to give you know um salah for example right yeah even on a on a local level but even someone who is um leading uh uh the the muslims in hajj yes someone who is the the representative who uh has islamically a normative kind of um status from the text of the quran from the understanding of the scholars that you know this person has a religious i don't like the word anywhere buddy function to do with worship to do with actual things that are not based on not contingent on time and place and and and norms and so forth so there's the other angle as well are these things like you say hajj i mean rasulullah used to appoint somebody as the emir of hajj and the used to appoint somebody as the emir of hajj from from they were the ones who appointed it the the the prophet salallahu was ordered by allah to take the sadaqa take the zakat yes allah says and and used to take the zakat and make sure it's distributed according to the quranic categories the i mentioned this to you a discussion beforehand that one of the one of the turkish nationalists who who voted against the abolition of khilafah did so on the grounds that the muslims would be up in arms he said he said they will not think that jummah prayer is valid yeah because certainly amongst the hanafi olema who were dominant in the ottoman state the jummah prayer was contingent on there being a khalifa to be valid they never said subsequently don't pray your jummah they we we all pray our jummah but that what they did say was you should pray your zahar as well your four fought for as well because that jummah may not suffice for you right and even outside the hanafi tradition there are some scholars who up until this day they would pray after they did the jummah after they yes prayed uh so there is that buddhia kind of yes element certainly there but in terms of because you understand obviously that riding camels is different to you know leading prayer yeah but the issue is where do you join that line and that line is drawn by definition it's going to be um an ishta hadi issue some people say it's here some people say it's there and i think understanding that that difference or how to deal with that different different groups different organizations different schools of thought different scholars and so forth we need to recognize that and i think this is part of the you know how can we regain some kind of unity or how did the disunity happen a very key part of that is muslims on a local and a national international whatever level not knowing or not properly dealing with their variety their differences you know inflating small differences into huge ones making huge ones negligent um i think that is the key so if you're saying that some people think that we must have a khalifa for the muslims but really predominantly that khalifa should be there just because our jumba should be valid and just so that he can appoint an emir of hajj and just so that we fulfill this prophetic command to give bay'a to al-khalifa and we don't die sinful because of that like if you like the last ottoman khalifa sultan abdul majeed ii who was reduced to a figurehead ruler i would say if somebody's calling for that i would say why would you call for that because when rasulullah mentioned full feedback for uh he preceded that by talking about banu israel used to be ruled and governed by their prophets or in another hadith where rasulullah mentioned to us about our own responsibility right in in doing things and he talked about um the imam the imam over the rules of the people is a guardian and he'll be asked about what is his responsibility yeah okay on every stage that's the thing over his house yeah you fight behind him and you protect yourself by him okay and many many many more examples like this where it's explicit that this ruler had the function to look after people whether it's their life their security their wealth and poverty their education and health this fell are not just the spiritual things so abdul hamid athani may allah have mercy on him arguably the last khalifa who exercised that that that authority to do that and tried to do that to the best of his ability so these are so i understand what you're saying that some people say okay we need to have a khalifa but if you get into the nitty-gritty of looking after people's affairs and running roads and hospitals and stuff then what is there for you know is that really what we want and the answer to that is yes according to the sunnah that is what you want okay yeah now you could say that but it's about the how and the why okay right so that's a different that's a different matter but but we're clear that ruling is not just a spiritual thing like abdul majid the second may allah have mercy on him was yeah but so it depends what you mean right so the khalifa as a as a figurehead as a person he has some things which are to abu dhir they had some some um functions which they have to be carried out by a single person right or you know delegate he he can delegate to the x-rays as a person but some of the functions are matters of um matters of means to an end right yeah does this fall under your definition it depends yeah it depends again even zakat zakat it's a broad thing okay of see every hukum has different things attached to a different monarch right so zakah in terms of the cut in and of itself as a pillar the kind in terms of uh the the details of collection who's collecting it from whom is it collected ultimately ultimately who is responsible who is responsible for that we all know no no ultimately okay so that's the thing so he's responsible for giving it who's responsible for it not being given within within the sharia there are things which are left to me where i am accountable for and there are things as a collective yeah where we have an amir who is responsible for that is the method by which it is taken so when the tribes refuse to pay the zakat after the passing of the messenger yes and didn't say that's between them and allah because that would have that would have meant he was failing in his duty as the emir of the talking about the how so electronically taking it from your bank account or using an apple those are that kind of stuff those are all legitimate those are all legitimate ways of doing it but if somebody didn't do it then it's the political authority that is responsible for just i mean who's responsible if that political uh authority is failing then that's what i'm saying we all are we all are then yes yes so the thing is it's i love going into these details just to test where the line is for different people you know what they're thinking stuff but i think the moral of the story is um you and another person and another person might and me might have ten ideas amongst ourselves about where exactly the line is right it could be when it comes to that's the thing between uh and i think this is laboring this point because i think it's very crucial to the the the moving forward of the ummah and i think it's one of the many people think it's one of the one of the many reasons for the downfall of the khilafah itself right of us not recognizing or not treating differences where they need to belong so there's the when any any hokum any any agreement two people have or disagreement they have it could be on two levels you can you can you can um uh split it up right one is the actual they call it lhc had a taxi lea you know the actual what is the theoretical outcome how much is zakar for example and there's a and the the the second level of disagreement can occur on okay how do we implement that into this particular country or society or whatever i don't want to use the character well anything but so so if we're if we're talking about the difference between a collector of zakat going out and going to village by village and collecting it right versus electronically right this is about the means by which you're doing it all right but not the means no no i'm talking about any implementing anything you have theoretically the point i'm making that is that on the issue of zakat just as an example right it's the sharia that says and the examples from the shariah that reinforce this that from our from the history of ruling that reinforce this that ultimately khalifa needs to be there the political authority is there to make sure it's done that's the method that shariah gave for that but the thing is that's what i'm trying to differentiate so because a lot of our discourse especially in the daoa domain and activism is primarily focused on that first region what's the theoretically what is the truth here's the truth i can write it down in 100 lines or whatever you know this is the ruling on that this is ruling on that and differences that occur there they are somewhat serious yeah if you if you depending on how fundamental that thing is and the consequences but there's a whole level of how do you how do you implement that in real life let's take these these few essential things yeah from the sharia and how do you implement how do you concretize it and really absolutely and that's going to be very uh that's going to be something which is open to discussion open to debate open actually open to thought because the the differences in different parts of the world might make the reality different on how you do that and that could that could be could be uh in in a future or in a past khilafah done centrally or done locally it could be that you have you have the the government i'm not talking about anything generally in terms of muslims getting along and practically just surviving and thriving and flourishing as societies so in terms of if you and i disagree for example on whether a piece of chicken is halal right that's about that piece of chicken it's about an objective it's study it's filtering through our own cognitive but if we all decide let's go out and eat halal meal yeah we might have a difference of what kind of meal we're going to eat and do we have that i think what we need to focus on is that maturity to recognize that you and i can sit on the same table you're eating something which in my opinion is haram but in your opinions now somebody who is primarily focused on just the theory they'll be like how can you be in haram and but we're recognizing no no we're not talking about i am eating haram full stop no i have to judge you according to what you understand that piece of meat to be for example yeah yeah and that's the thing that's the thing i think we need to focus on yeah and the thing which we say that we're losing i think when you so that definitely when you and i meet each other sometimes and we meet with other people we don't always share the same views right we don't always share the same opinions i've you and i have been to places where people pray and some will come combine their nasa because they're travellers and others will not and these kind of things and i don't think that guy's is because because he he he combined it he prayed in the time i don't think like that you don't think like that yeah but but but um the some people do some people do and uh that is a failure to understand the context of legitimate right and some people also cross over a boundary of what's legitimate and they think anything goes based on their intention right so we started this conversation this part of this conversation with whether the khalifa should be just a spiritual figurehead or a practically a political ruler it's really hard to justify the spiritual figurehead through a legitimate truth normally the truth is some somewhere in the middle sure but it's it's it's to to well the truth may be somewhere in the middle but the point is it's very hard to justify the khalifa as a spiritual figurehead from any objective reading of the texts i don't think anyone i mean i haven't even come across anyone who's saying that that's a kind of extreme you know well that was that was a debate that was a debate post the abolition of the khilafah when there were some debates in the muslim world in egypt in the middle east about appointing a new khalifa the point was that he should just be the figurehead because otherwise these muslims around the world i know they're feeling you know the term khalifa is often used as heads of kind of spiritual orders maybe or um kind of sub groups and stuff and yeah no no it wasn't that there were debates in the muslim world about whether or not people like the sharif of makkah should be the new khalifa or somebody else and that they would be given by the muslims to be the khalifa but actually their role would the the role would be purely spiritual not political almost like the pope right sorry to button again but just a reminder hit that subscribe button if you're into this kind of stuff and if you're not hit that dislike button twice so going back to so just for for the audience maybe to to follow uh myself those were false debates by the way those were yeah what happened what went wrong i mean up till that point yeah so i mean we're talking about 100 years now post yeah abolition and obviously different people different readings of history they'll put that date maybe 1500 years earlier or whatever depending on so so what happened on the 28th of reject 1342 the 3rd of march 1924 was the the national assembly in ankara which had been given the political power which used to be in the hands of the khalifa just just a year beforehand passed a resolution to formally abolish to expel the khalifa from what was then in istanbul he was in istanbul and to declare itself a republic where islam basically had no place in the ruling system at all which was something which was utterly alien to the ottoman period it was that's what happened on that day that was the end point to a whole series of things so anyone who looks at the the tail end of the ottoman period after world war one and one of one entered in 1918 um and looks at the tail end of that we'll see a whole series of events where power was going from the old ruling elite into this new group of people that had set themselves up in ankara as nationalists and and basically republicans the the last sheikh islam of the ottoman khilafah was called mustafa may allah gave him allah mercy on him and he he said the khilafah was destroyed by the uh the twin swords of atheism and nationalism all right what he had noticed and it's actually very well documented now is that in the preceding decades there was a rise of secular thought and nationalistic thought both amongst turks so there was turkish nationalism and amongst arabs so by secular thought and nationalism you're you're referring to the influence of europe europe and eurocentrism yeah that kind of philosophy and things he wrote a book called islamia and it's a it's a very short book and it's a very easy book to read if it has a weakness the weakness is that it's not referenced but i've found over recent years that when i read that bit which talks about the demise of the khilafah it's very easy to find references for what he's saying on the web so he describes how there's a influx of missionaries to the khilafah from the united states and europe in the kind of seventeen eighteen hundreds initially to place it like malta but later on into billadosham and egypt and some of the ones he's named eli smith cornelius van dijk well documented you can read about them very famous christian missionaries who came learnt arabic and started engaging a relationship with christians within the khilafah famous ones include people like bhutras bhustani and nasif al-sawaji i think his name is okay again very easy to find their names and research who they are and what they did and you can see this adoption of ideas which are based on western enlightenment thinking and they moved from a missionary sort of process to setting up uh cultural and educational establishments in the khilafah and some of those arab christians started promoting arab nationalism started promoting the idea that actually religion shouldn't have a part in governance which is alien to the ottoman tradition of absolutely and similar things were happening in the turkish-speaking areas of the khilafah as well so even in the time of uh before abdul hamid some of the brothers and sisters watching should read about the khalifa abdul aziz who was preceded abdulhamid he was uncle abdul aziz was said to have committed suicide all right but it's widely believed that he was murdered and if you read about the circumstances of his suicide so-called suicide it's it's a bizarre it's a kind of dr david kelly type suicide it's like you know too many questions okay people in his governing council his advisors were pro-british pro-secular ministers you see photographs of them long beards rumi tobys like all those kind of things looking like classic ottomans but they had been affected by secular thought and they were trying to drive the khalifa down a road to more the same kind of language that we see in europe adopted towards turkey today you need to modernize you need to change precisely what it is the modern the european modernity creeping into um the the kind of ottoman aristocracy and but the the decline wasn't just in terms of these missionary invasions and these political shenanigans these were there there were two other elements which were kind of were there which broke the camel's back one was us as the ummah you know the decline is in islamic thought in centuries was was big the the time of the ottomans the ottomans did very great things but they were not uh they were not one one thing they were not was they were not um drawing upon the well of islam and its akida and its hakam and its solutions to human problems to solve their problems they got to the state where they were trying to mimic what the west was doing and and and so the decline in islamic state that's that's that's something that i don't know if it's a trope against them or there's certainly something that i've heard and read that the ottomans didn't focus much on um preserving and flourishing the intellectual tradition and there's many reasons for that kind of economics there's many reasons for that i mean like i'm not an arab speaker right but actually you you only have to have some taste of the arabic language to know that actually to really draw upon the wealth in the sharia texts it requires to be have a arabic to be a strong and the decline in arabic had started way before and the ottomans were not an arab-speaking society the allema were but the the majority of thinkers and people were not and these things are matter yeah that the other thing that broke the camel's back were external things so abdul hamid may allah have mercy on him had to deal with a war in the balkans and different secessionists trying to break away and then ultimately you get after his time world war one and world war one is a disaster world war one though the western powers thought that the khilafah was going to be so weak that they'd win within a year right they'd destroy the allies britain france russia they thought they'd destroy the khilafah within a year three years down the line they were thinking about how do we how do we make peace with the ottoman state had it not been for the americans intervening in world war one the khilafah may not have fallen had it not been for traitors within the khilaf like sharif hussein in mecca who uh who spearheaded an arab revolt which meant the ottomans had to fight on more than one front and they were having to defend all kinds of areas which they should never have had to defend they should never have had to defend jerusalem or they're sure they should never have had to defend makkah madina hijaz in in the way they had to and so lose jerusalem damascus and baghdad yeah and also you know there was on many fronts in terms of um i don't like blaming any everything on kind of colonialism but there were there was pressure in india in in british india uh to to for you know um for fatwas to be given against uh you know the ottomans and allegiance to be sworn to the colonizers and so forth so there was pressure of you know all the frontiers kind of breaking away and and um come kind of sent to anti-ottoman sentiment being fermented um my question is do you think that the ummah got too big for the ottomans to handle uh no i don't i don't think that that's the case because actually if you if you take i mean the ottoman state at its at its peak was huge and manageable yeah that was well ruled it was there are good examples the thing with the peak though in it yes it's followed by sure so so but but i don't think it's that i think it is more it is more that there is a and abdul hamid may allah one of the reasons we always remember abdulhamid as a great khalifa is that he actually tried very hard to try and reestablish some kind of order and he did he did extraordinarily in in terms in terms of in terms of the circumstances that he faced internally and externally but what happened in 1924 was was a disaster and it was an end point of a long process and the other thing was so it wasn't like everything was fine and then no not at all not at all and people did see it and the other thing salman is as muslims our nature is very trusting we see things happening have you ever heard of you must have heard of ahmed sharpie ahmad shawky is is called known as the prince of poetry in egypt he's very famous arab poet in the early part of the 20th century shoki wrote verse praising mustafa kamal praising mustafa kamal because he saw him as a great military leader who defeated the british at gallipoli who defeated the greeks in the the war against greek greece right when mustafa kamal abolished the khilafah shoki was shocked he was like uh he was in trauma he's written he's written a verse which is one of the most famous eulogies to the khilafah very moving people who read it they're in tears reading this okay when he wrote it mustafa sabri the same last mufti of the like said now you're mourning it now you criticize mustafa kamal but some of us could see this coming from before some of us could see through trajectory that the young turks and the nationalists and the secularists were going on others saw them as a means to an end they thought you know what these guys are trying to regain some prestige and power to the khilafah many pro-islamic pro-caliphate people thought even the young turks were doing something good or mustafa was doing something good until they saw the final knife being stabbed in and then they realized the magnitude of what had happened in retrospect and muslims can be very trusting and make excuses for people when perhaps they ought to be looking at much more scrutiny and if we're talking about khilafah and ruling you know the messengers he's a nabi of allah he's a rasulullah his his status amongst his companions was i think couldn't even look him in the eyes some of them so overawed with respect for him they were yet yet there are examples where they questioned him and they asked him why he's doing something and why he's not doing something else right even with him as his political as their political leader and prophet they're willing to ask him questions they're willing to scrutinize and more so with the khulaf right so when abu bakr radhian was about to send armies in all directions people were questioning him why do this why not do this people are asking him why are you fixing the maha for women why are you you know that questioning him accountability is something that works two ways we as a ummah need to be accounting our leaders and the leaders anyone in any position of leadership needs to be willing to be questioned scrutinized and accounted that culture is gone that culture you know either we're too deferential to our leaders yeah or we're too too merciful if you like we do we make too many excuses for brothers that we respect and we don't give nasiha an account yes or we put ourselves in a position of authority and we can't take criticism okay we can't take uh scrutiny um and that culture needs to exist within muslims definitely definitely yeah i mean it was part of jahangid's uh um report for the ayan institute on you know reviving a new civilian building a new civilization of islam and he mentioned something that shocked me in terms of the actual numbers right so you're saying something like the population of pakistan now is bigger than the entire ottoman you know yeah caliphate because just human populations they kind of shot up exponentially in 20th century so this is a question kind of elephant in the room many times a discussion about historically and that is what would it look like today what could look like tomorrow in the future because we recognize the whole continuum between do exactly everything as historically someone did a versus oh you know they didn't drink pepsi they drove they didn't drive cars and they worked in camels and stuff and ultimately everyone's going to have a different kind of every group or he had it's going to have a different line that they've drawn different massaging issues what's your view about what would look like in the age of yeah you know 10 billion human beings on earth maybe 2 billion plus muslims that's a lot of people to govern yeah so thought on this matter starts with the the the ideal and the ideal is made up of the absolute pillars and red lines which may be of a few and the sun because we draw our example from the rasool sallam said to us to take his sunnah and the sunnah of the rashidun as the as examples for us so some of those will be part of the red lines and pillars the the wajibat and some of those will be great examples for us to follow right and then mapping that on the world we live in today is what you're talking about really isn't it it's because how you map that on because you know what you said before about look pragmatically it's impossible for one person to you know directly um without assistance without governors without delegating authority yes but that's not the case now is it i mean theoretically speaking you can build some kind of electronic surveillance system or automated system where every human every citizen of the caliphate can actually directly you know um send a message to the khalifa or say i think we should do this or i disagree with you on that it's government it's not yougov right its job is to look after people's affairs its job is to implement the necessary rulings of islam one man can't look after the affairs of leadership is unif unitary right but author but but but actually the the administration of that has to be by definition has to be delegated either either by task like used to do in no to people uh has to be either like russo did with his close companions in mecca or geographically by governance okay so that has to happen so what would look like in the world today is you will have a capital and you will have uh will ayat you will have provinces right and some of the matters would be looked after necessary necessarily would be in the uh directly managed by the khalifa others would be delegated but the responsibility stops with the khalifa so if you just let somebody get on with it and doing it badly that's that's no good he has to be pursuing what's happening in different places and and looking and scrutinizing how well are people being governed accountability in i mean i can only describe what is our model if you like based on these things so in our model we would have like we say provinces governorships accounting the khalifa centrally would be a ruling council of uh um not ruling capitalism a shura council majorly where people are elected to it all right and their job would be just from each country or each region you'd saying it could be from each region yes actually it should be it should be eu kind of thing it should be and and within each region you should be electing to account diwali right and accountability shouldn't just be down to these people accountability there should be political parties in the um that is accounting the ruler should be scrutinizing accounting the media the in the media should be part of that independence that is accounting and scrutinizing politicians right not tabloid tittle tattle not harry and megan yes not rubbish like that speaking of harry and meg just kidding no you know when they talk about a free media in the west right a free media is what sells papers harry and megan sells papers but looking at the failure of the government to provide ppe intestine trace in looking after the affairs of its citizen doesn't sell papers right one is about the personal lives of people which really has no place in the public eye the other is about government accountability and media should be scrutinizing that so should it be in and and the other thing which is very important in any model that we have is remember in judiciary is independent of the executive at the judges and the judges have their eye is a contract right the ruler agrees to rule by kitab and sunnah most beautifully expressed by saying abu bakr when he said obey me as long as i obey allah and his messenger and if i disobey him especially you have no obedience to me okay and the ones who are ruled have to accept that person as their ruler at the government look and obey the laws laws of the of the land based on sharia but if if there's a conflict between them the judiciary can come in and if the khalifa has broken his bay our contract yes he can be removed he can be he can be removed there's no there's no and that's how our system should work and if the if the ummah in a local district in a local william have a vote of no confidence in their worly the khalifa if he's following the sunnah he will change that one he won't he because that's lost he's lost the authority by definition that's how it should work the thing is that one that i'm thinking of is i mean today that would that is completely understandable and and you'd assume you know 100 years ago 50 years ago that would be probably quite straightforward to actually achieve but now with the rise of the digital age with the rise of you know you can manipulate a people's mind and turn them against a perfectly good yes you know yes governor so you you've identified you've identified one modern phenomenon which is the propaganda propaganda or highly sophisticated targeted automated yeah almost propaganda and and propaganda existed i mean propaganda you don't think that pamphlets that were being given out in the ottoman days which were uh uh rallying public opinion against the khalifa well it worked it worked didn't it yes yes so you're absolutely right the the digital age has changed so data security is is something in fact our uh being but that's a that's a challenge for all countries in the world today and perhaps strangely i mean the the more um in your information systems are are developed the more of an achilles heel you potentially have right and um and and the the more i think estonia is like a world leader in terms of everything is on on the cloud for them yeah but well i mean strangely enough in in some parts of our our muslim world we are you know we are behind on some of these things so we perhaps have less than an achilles heel but you're 100 right if you see where power is for example yeah data security is something that that has it has to be part of your security thinking in any modern day and age any any any polity any state any dollar islamia in the future has to be thinking about its and and that goes from everything from making your information system secure your most modern day weapon systems are based on software so you know us us is not so scared of china's tanks and planes as it is of its ability to crash its its software absolutely yes so so those are all elements of the reason why i ask is because this is this is a question i put to jahangir as well about looking at a new civilization of islam and what the future is i'm always wondering are we in in trying to imagine a uh kind of rectifying the situation of the ummah are we kind of setting ourselves up for building something that by the time we get there is going to be out of date right so for example today when we're looking at where does power line lies in governments uh nation states uh national assemblies parliaments all that kind of stuff but like apple google amazon they're probably more powerful than many countries they are they are powerful in the sense that they have enormous volumes of data um and uh and that data money control over people's lives potentially but has it hasn't it to some extent i mean if we were backtracking 100 years and i said to you well you know uh rothschild or uh a rockefeller or uh uh all the the big merchant banks in the the even even the goldman sachses of this world and these kind of people existed in some shape or form so money and actually they were the ones that loaned money to states to allow them to fight wars okay the east india company was even a private company at one stage wasn't it so it's like it's it's a fighting its own wars so so what you've got is a reality that exists in the world which is that actually in the capitalist world particularly that these these things like governments and parliaments and uh and senates and congress are actually the ones with the real power no um and and even that's what i'm saying even with the data security even with the data security thing if you look at the threat to the united states in terms of its elections or in terms of britain with its um brexit vote and stuff it states like russia that that people are questioning whether they manipulated the outcome of these things so these are real questions yeah okay and and then i think it requires us to rethink you know that why even why why because because because surely i mean 10 years ago 20 years ago it would be a very sensible thing to say you know what um we need to build a you know in terms of country just ignore the impact of um the manipulation of human beings via sophisticated digital electronic means let me just finish the point yeah but if you look say in 20 years time it's it's it's very imaginable actually that amazon for example is doing all of the things that a government would normally do historically governments would be in charge of abc but now imagine what you know your fridge is is is alerting you to uh or sending data or because this whole thing of this new world order or some people call surveillance capitalism it's based on the predict the predictability of future human action and if we're if our agency our personal sovereignty is being removed then you know we need to i'm not saying i have the answer but we need to uh we need to have that on the radar such not just from a security point of view but where are the maybe the muslim versions of so for example not just from a security probably other bunch of companies do the same they can predict your future behavior to such a an extent where the notion of your own personal decision making goes out the window so look all right let's let's uh that's control over people's life they can they can subtly and electronically you know i've made your point very eloquently now can i take over his house so let's break this down a little bit because you've mashed loads of stuff into one rant you've lashed loads of stuff so the first element is it is security there is a security element right there is a security element so so any any state khilafah or china or russia or britain or the united states doesn't just have to think of a cyberbug crashing its health i.t systems or its air traffic network all states have to think about that or it's military software they also companies they also have to think about uh how their politics of their country could be manipulated by this data the markets in their company could be manipulated by this data opinions can be manipulated by this data and this is something they are all learning so in china today there is looking at like do the chinese really want their you know billion and a half plus citizens or billion half citizens to be using uh google and and whatsapp and all these things right which are collecting their data and potentially going to be used against their population that's why they have their own version that's because they have their own versions so what this tells you about is for us as muslims generally and in particular or anyone in particular is is actually being self-reliant in when i say independent i don't mean independent in the sense that you're going to cut yourself off from the world yeah you're not going to be in north korea but you have to be what china's showing is that they can't rely on being networked into and rely on the networks which either run by the us or run by us-based corporations yeah that's and that that means in fact the corporations that run the us so even when we say state now or government governments have very little power in the face of you know when allah has huge corporations that allah doesn't allow the the disbelievers have a way over the believers it makes it incumbent on us that whether it's um being self-reliant within the ummah on military technology or communication network or trade or or medicine you know i shouldn't have to rely as a nakhilafa i shouldn't have to rely i should something like kovid i should work with the rest of the world on finding a cure finding a vaccine but i should never rely on the us or europe or uh or china given my data or giving on that so so a fundamental concept for muslims to adopt is that where are states going in terms of self-reliance okay where and and rather that doesn't happen except in a few places so you know you look at pakistan and its historical conflict with india it's forced pakistan it does buy huge amounts of military hardware from other countries but it has started to try and develop some of its own uh artillery and aircrafts and tanks and stuff it start missiles it started to try and do itself and honestly speaking a second rate something that you've built yourself which is a step on the road to being independent and self-reliant in any way whether it's the technology aspects you're talking about or other things is unquestionably necessary unquestionably and again that that that level of scrutiny if you look when people criticize when we as hezekiah criticize governments in the muslim world for being lackeys right it's not just that they're not all like you know the gulf states where they're little literally almost like told what to do they're also ones that yeah they're also those who think they're doing a good thing but by embedding their systems in the current existing order you're actually tying your own hand without realizing it simple matter of currency look most currencies in the muslim world will be pegged to the dollar anything happens to the dollar you're going to fear that your own currency is going down yeah you have effectively enslaved yourself to or even you know um like what china's doing now all across the muslim world um giving loans and then when they default you can okay well on your utilities or your infrastructure or these bridges or these roads and that kind of stuff and and and so so this point like you know and the same is for data there's a poverty of vision like pakistan afghanistan like there's a lot of talk about and we've already seen the oil such dry out of the middle east the biggest all-producing part of the world is in the muslim world okay there's a lot of discussion about where fuel uh security is going in the future whether or not it's going away from fossil fuels maybe that's one of the reasons why but but what but technology tablets phones other things rely on lithium nickel these are in abundance in in some parts of the muslim world china china has its eye on pakistan afghanistan because it's very mineral-rich these parts of the world and they need these minerals for this kind of technology going forward we don't have a vision a political vision in the muslim world of how we would utilize this because in origin these things are the ummas they aren't private companies they are they're they belong that wealth from that is part of the wealth that is circulated amongst the ummah to solve problems build hospitals build roads yeah right it's not just zakat that we are expected to utilize it's it's that's a good answer you make a good host challenge but uh so if you've been watching salman's adverts don't give him any money uh we accept other gifts as well final reminder brothers and sisters i promise a lot of you have graciously asked how we can support islam to unc how you can spot is by clicking this button and donating five pounds a month in china the the the thing many people also we put a kind of question on our social media and many people responded we asked how can muslims unite globally today right there were many interesting uh answers many you may thought-provoking things as well and one thing that kept coming up again and again and again is how do we actually have the foster the ability to unite despite differences um people are giving examples uk look at syria for example when the the revolution was kind of um gaining momentum and not just syria this is unfair to afghanistan iraq anywhere anywhere there's destabilization anywhere there's some kind of smaller groups libya they're coming together they're making some alliances but then they start infighting right where whatever the causes are external until whatever we seem to almost you know automatically when muslim two muslims get together whether it's your local mosque you know committee members election someone gets into when power kind of gets to you our head we tend to start in fighting and we can't seem to hold even kind of quote unquote islamic groups you know overtly you know islamic in their messaging and so forth we can't seem to remain in power without kind of starting aiming our guns at each other right how would how do we address this because practically imagine or whoever they make all of the things you mentioned they make all that infrastructure i can just see at the muslims at our current level as we are as we treat each other as we act towards each other especially online which is like the new world now which is moving more and more online especially with the pandemic you know everyone's online now cyberspace is like more than more popular than real life sometimes how do we stop us well how do how do we continue with with power without it kind of uh leading to us just breaking up and uh so um i'm just opening this because i want i want there's a lovely quote which i so um there is a there is a this is something that all muslims would agree with right there is an aspect of us as individuals of how we rectify ourselves isn't there there's an aspect of that so understanding the importance of responsibility and leadership and that you'll be accounted on yamakiyama for this that you'll be and also like we talked before about um the followers both obeying and accounting right and those two things are not mutually conflicted and that rectification of ourselves has to acknowledge that we are corrupted it's not just that we lack certain islamic concepts we are corrupted by the dominant thoughts in the world which come from secularism capitalism so individualism is rife isn't it i mean why is it that in the far east they were very cooperative about dealing with the pandemic rules whereas here we've got people that refuse to stay at home refuse to put on masks in the states people are like rebelling against it almost yeah why it's because they've been taught and we've been taught from a very young age that you are the most important thing not the collective yes not obeying allah the false idol of the self yeah and not not obeying not not obeying the one that allah has legitimately given authority to or that the islam legitimately gives authority to in any given situation i don't mean spiritual authority i mean the ruling the leadership authority in any given situation okay and that could be in a house the relationship between man wife children parents it could be in the mosque it could be in the community so these this rectification of the self requires certain islamic concepts and a recognition that we are corrupted in the dominant thoughts but you know think of when nabi sallallahu alaihi wasallam went to al-madinah he went to a place yathrib which was torn up by war and conflict before tribes were fighting each other hating each other killing each other yeah and and at some point those people they obviously they embraced islam right but they accepted they would bring this man and what he brought islam as the arbiter between them okay and when he came to medina the sahih of medina became the document arbitering between them and actually even then when the best ruler of the best of creation came with that best constitution there were people that undermined it in his state the tribes yeah they're all undermining it from day one right and how did he deal with them when they undermined it there was a there was a legal sanction on them depending on what they did right but he didn't also he didn't like start spying on people to see who were the monarchy he didn't start like oppressing people rather he dealt with case by case on what was apparent didn't he um there's a there's a statement by um um he said islam will remain strong as long as the authority is strong and the authority the strength of authority doesn't come from the killing by the sword and the lashing by the whip it comes by judging with the truth and upholding of justice he said if he wished he had a man like um as one of his look helping him look after the muslims affairs i think you know when i think of some of the big schisms in the muslim world shia sunni uh in countries like pakistan the balochi separatists in in places like turkey the kurdish separatists a lot of this comes from a sense of people feeling they've been hard done by injustice injustice neglected yes persecuted right and and sometimes they have been and so their needs there needs to not just be an islamic constitution there needs to be an enforcing of justice upholding of truth even if it's against your own clan or ethnic background or sect or party if it meant that you're upholding justice for the one who came genuinely aggrieved so those stories that we tell our children about when the the non-muslim the the jewish man came over a dispute with said ali when he was khalifa and the judge arbitrated in favor of the the plaintiff not the khalifa they have a meaning don't they in terms of what we learn from the khulaf that actually this is the manifest way that actually you can start and i say start to build that trust in the history of instilling a sense of justice no no no no no that that's right but that's part of the rectification of the self but ultimately what it means is that when when you come whoever whoever and allah knows who whoever comes to assume and give is given bayer as the next khalifa and by the way the long tradition in muslim ahmed that talks about the full telling of that talks about nabua is the next not not a corrupted khilafah but the khilafah that actually adopts these principles of prophethood right so whoever comes who is given bae as the next khalifa has to um rule in a way that brings these people together and and and you may be somebody who comes from a community or a background that thinks that you you uh are hard done by or you may be from a political grouping in the society that has been you might be a communist for example that has been calling for communist in communism in your state or whatever yeah but now the line is drawed clear sorry i'm knocking your microphone the line we've drawn clear we we clean the wet slate is wiped clean right you are now going to be accounted and we as the government are now going to be accounted on this way of ruling if people start to see that actually being realized that trust builds and bear in mind in the history of islam why is it that even non-muslims felt loyal to the khilafah when the crusaders came for example why because they recognized that even that islamic rule gave them their rights okay and that's that's a that's i don't see that's easy but that's the way we have to start thinking and and i think it's not it's right to look at these schisms that exist it's also right when people talk about rectification of self if they recognize that we are corrupted by many ideas from outside and from the dominant secular thought but but more than that it's when it comes to the issue of ruling and if for example salman you get appointed as a mosque committee chairman i would expect you to up uh to to to adopt these if you want to succeed as a legitimate chairman of the mosque committee yeah you would try and uphold these principles you would not say oh you're my friend you can come and have your circle and say to the other one that you don't like the way that he speaks that he can't no you will play fair with everyone and if you and you would expect them to account you from day one you'd want that like it's important for you know i wrote about this a few years ago called the caliphate chicken and the egg you know a lot of people when they're talking about okay what went wrong what depending on your own particular interests and and maybe background or even personality type we tend to focus sometimes more on macro level issues sometimes you know systems and so forth and sometimes on micro level issues some people in terms of fixing people and their personal integrity and so forth and it's it's it's deeply fallacious to only focus on you do need both that you know if you have the system set up very nicely and people are selfish and corrupt and or obnoxious or don't have the akhlaq of the muslims the promise of salam that he came to perfect then that you know the best system is going to is going to be um you know undermined and and broken and from within but if you have a bad system and you work focus on making people harder work as making people you know more efficient in their job and more polite and more cooperative and more effective human beings you're just going to increase the the output of of evil happening he had he had uh the best system the divine system and he had a society of the best generation but he also had some really bad eggs in there and they were really really trying to create fitna for him and really trying to undermine the society and and yet somehow he managed to hold all of that together and that's that's the thing he mastered on both spheres of course the systemic of course macro and also the micro individual but when we're talking about uh political it's like you say all these things that we need to do ourselves if you do all of that but if you don't have that glue the issue is people shouldn't undermine the other that's the issue if there's a because we need people to focus on the the macro issues we need people simultaneously to focus on you know whatever people you know is is easy for them and so forth but we need to recognize like i read one thing that uh what i forgot the name of the sheikh he mentioned the ummah is like the hadith is like a body one body you know the feet don't do the same job as the hands the eyes don't do the same job as you know the the brain for example so likewise we need to recognize that those who are working on raising the youth for example or working on you know uh increasing the the personal integrity angle of the spirituality and software of human beings and those are what need to work on the global systemic issues there's no problem having a focus as long as it's not mutually undermining and saying my way is the only way because focusing only on macro only on micro is going to lead to disaster in my opinion islam is not just micro or macro i i i wouldn't i don't classify it like that rather actually the you can say there are there are elements of islam which are thoughts ideas rules they they exist in the personal domain or the communal domain in terms of families communities and stuff and then what we've been talking about predominantly today is there's elements of islam which were the method to implement the sharia rule protect them and propagate them right and that required a legitimate islamic authority in the end this hundred years is marking the end of that even when that is restored what we talk about in terms of the personal domain what you might call the micro that has to exist rather i would argue that it can better be achieved when you have a government and a society that allows that to flourish that's not to say it should not even be worked on now it should and it should requisite it should yeah it's a prerequisite for those who even who aspire to even try and carry the noble cause without question it's a prerequisite for the ordinary muslim amongst us who wants to achieve jannah and and wants to try and please allah right um and but i i'd say that um the only thing i really i think the thing i agree with you is when there should be no contradiction and conflict between people except if you start saying no you're doing this is actually uh driving people away from what they should be doing it can't it can't be if we view islam as a complete way of life you can't say you're calling for the politicians undermine other legitimate causes and and everything in sharia has like its priority what we're talking about today what we're talking about on this anniversary which people don't really talk about do they very much let's face it i mean we talk about it all the time but really really but we when you talk look about look really when you look at the the status of this issue and how much other people try to even just educate uh people on this matter and the the relevance of this matter and the importance of this matter it is actually very small very small and and if you even look at the discourse of muslim activists in this week about harry megan versus this it's it's a tragedy it's a tragedy and it's and i and i think so i i do well i do agree with you that we should not be attacking each other and different people like have different focuses yes i i would hope if somebody who sees their focus on improving tarbia and the akhlaq came to me and said you're working for hilafa you should improve yourself i would hope i would say i should and i must right by the same token if i go to somebody who is working for that and i say masha'allah you're doing this but you know what you should be addressing these issues as well and working for it i hope they wouldn't turn around and you know say no that's not my job yeah do you see what i mean it's like and and yet actually i would argue with you more people will come around that way around yeah but the benefit of this discussion for all people watching is that actually your point is valid islam is islam obligation is obligation whether it's the weighty huge geopolitical issues of having a khalifa and who is the voice of islam in the world and who carries this message to humanity or whether it's my mother advising me on how i should you know eat with my right hand or say bismillah before i eat and not waste any of my food yeah yeah exactly the topic of food i heard this place is quite uh popular on the map and we've taken a lot of your time so uh pleasure to speak you specially again uh you're working towards khilafah but you know i advise you you should um subscribe to some truancy's youtube channel and click like and share you too at home wherever you're watching this uh remember to donate as well if you can to help support this broadcast don't give me any money but uh click on this link here and one hummus will go towards hey just kidding jacqueline again for your viewership if you managed to make it to the end of this podcast if you like this podcast give a like and a share and remember to get involved in the comments below let us know what you think agree disagree um have any good points we'll have a read and continue watching some training c uh watching unscripted for more juicy stuff like this uh until next time assalamualaikum barakatuhu i