thanks so much so I think this session um flows on very nicely from that one and I think some of the questions that I think were left unanswered there we can answer in this session so this is all about governments and the future of Finance public sector Finance authorities worldwide are embarking on operational transformation to incorporate and capitalize on the possibilities enabled by innov Innovative technology so we're going to be looking at lot lot of issues around those we have three great speakers um with us here and again we're going to follow the same format so I'm going to invite each of our speakers to give some opening remarks and then I'll throw it open um to the floor so first we'll hear from dinaa who is deputy director of the financial Market Policy Department and head of credit institution and payment services policy division at the Ministry of Finance in lvia great to have you back with us Dina then we've got Diego vfan Sagi who is the digital Finance coordinator at the department of digital and sustainable Finance at the Spanish treasury I'm really sorry for my pronunciation of your name and then we have Sandy sanasa who is head of government and strategic Accounts at our knowledge partner clear Bank Dena I'm going to ask you to give some opening remarks uh yes thank you uh in the previous session we heard a lot about uh uh fintech what government have to do with uh setting the fintech uh uh seen uh in this field uh I think uh also our government has done a lot of work uh and we understand that the ecosystem of the uh fintex uh is very important in uh element uh for the developing of the future of the finance because we know that the traditional financial institutions of course uh uh will play uh a great role in this um um develop M also uh offering their own uh potential uh innovative solutions but uh uh Innovative fexs have to be um somehow uh also looked at and um this cannot function uh without the uh strategic uh vision for the development and uh saying so uh we in lvia have also developed the fintech strategy uh has has been working already for some time uh we developed the strategy uh together with a private sector um and uh with a great uh engagement from their side and we also had a great recognition from the Pol political uh circles that this is a way where we have to go uh if we want to get uh even more uh innovative Solutions in the financial sector and um of course the basic elements uh have to be um have to be in place uh and uh I I was looking at the uh strategy of the island and it's very very very close to to the model they are they are pursuing and um uh one of one of those is of course development of talent uh the second one is uh uh regulatory side and and uh Excellency in the regulation um so I with with that said U I have to mention that uh regulator plays a major role in in the development and of course uh we heard also about the sandbox solution uh we have the Innovation Hub and the sandbox have already evolved and has already started to operate like a uh Innovation uh lab so to say for for the fch solutions and uh the the third pillar is of course the state support uh we are looking at the opportunities to finance also from the public uh public resources the the ftech uh companies and uh and the fourth element is of course you have to uh bring more awareness to the um to the whole society about this uh about this sector as such and uh uh we uh really are building on a very sound sound basis because we have already now quite High uh digitalization uh in in uh in finance we have 87% of uh of uh payments in in in digital format so uh we have a very very strong also uh basis of the Public Services already provide in in provided in the uh digital format uh for example um yes it's digital identity and also the digital um digital identity in in the financial sector is also working very well uh and uh and all these Solutions uh have to have also have to find the way forward uh for for government services also speaking about the government services um the tax uh payments uh also uh from the state side uh can be can be made in the in the digital form and uh there is development uh going on that uh um for example uh uh electronic uh electronic invoices uh will be issued and and this is a development uh towards the uh more uh uh working on on tax collection uh in this format and we have also an excellent solution which is electronic declaration system uh so that uh State AR service in um communication with uh with um taxpayers can uh can can can do everything in digitalized format so you do not have to go in in person for the consultation you can just submit in digital format all the all the documentation and you can get uh get everything in the service format from the from the State Revenue Service in this electronic declaration system it's it is working really very great uh we have also this uh digital identity which is uh publicly uh publicly um sustained Service uh by the um Regional uh development uh agency in lvia and and we have a government portal well where you also can uh access all the digital digital format of the services uh uh in in this uh one place uh and it's it's called the portal latva LV so you can get uh almost almost everything in this uh in this portal uh if you're looking looking for the services from the government side um but uh of course we we see that there is a still a development potential uh we see that in in the development of the financial sector and also the fintech uh companies we we have to make uh closer links also with our universities for uh for uh education and I think the education is a key aspect in transforming not only the services but also the users of the services uh and of course there have to be um Specialists present uh that can provide these services this is I think one of the key aspects we have to look at and um we we know that uh there is of course uh uh limited availability of of the of this of the human capit cap so we I think the the most and the greatest investment uh if we would like to have a tangible change in the digitalization is investment exactly in the human capital um this this is key this is this is key and that's why we are seeing this uh cooperation with our universities one of the one of the key uh key elements of of of building uh building uh this this system and uh if we if we are speaking uh about the development of the public sector I agree uh very much to already what have been said that um there is uh potential for the fintech companies in engaging uh in in public procurement uh and provision of the services uh to the to the public authorities uh but of course I I understand that the public procurement is a very very complex as well field uh not all the fexs are very skillful in in uh European Public public procurement rules so uh therefore I think we we have to look at uh at this uh if we would like to have the development uh also for some uh maybe specific uh rules uh to create some pilot environment like a Sandbox for financial sector players but uh I think it is a way to go uh and of course we see that uh artificial intelligence is also starting to play a big role in financial sector and the financial sector will be transformed with the presence of the AI That's that's definitely for sure but currently we should not look only at the uh and the potential benefits but also how to how to better regulate it and uh with saying so I think uh European Union has already made a very great step towards the regulation of for example marketing crypto assets I think uh uh really this uh spearheading of the of the regulation in this field and is is is a is a role model for for all the other jurisdictions which have not yet adopted any any kind of regulation on this and um I think the licensing and and very clear setting of The Rules is is beneficial for the sector when they know that there are clear rules for operation and there is uh also the potential for the growth if you have a legal certainty so I think this this is very important also for the development of the AI and think in financial sector uh so the the next uh Next Step would be uh to have the right balance in this potential regulation of the of the AI Solutions as well because we know that for example in in our country we have already some examples when uh there is the use of AI in uh for example prediction of the of the profitability of uh uh of the financial institutions uh and use in in uh credit person is assessment uh credit scoring for Consumer uh loans and for for issuing loans to the smmes uh and also for some um investment Solutions as well so I think this have to be looked also a bit closer thanks and I think that issue of AI will probably come back to in the conversation because it comes up in almost every event that we do now and it's certainly going to be changing the whole fintech space I think very quickly um but thank you so much uh mentioning there I think again building on what we've heard before the importance of that working with the private sector having them very much part of developing your strategy the political desire you mentioned I think going back to something that Ian said at the start with his picture there how important the political kind of will to um do this uh really really important development of talent having that Clarity around the rules and the regulations as well um digital IDE coming in again as a key building block opening the doorway to so many Digital Services Public Services I'm not sure people see paying their tax as a public service but um we can come on to that but obviously paying tax is one of the big use case examples I think of fintech and then really focusing on investment not just in technology but in people I think a crucial thing in the education piece and working with Academia thank you so much Dena Diego coming on to you thank you very much Sian and Global government fintech Department of uh Finance thank you very much for for inviting the Spanish treasury to this uh very interesting superb event so uh I was invited to to reflect on how uh governments are using Financial technology right and it has been bit of a challenge for me because uh well I still work at the the treasury so I basically type regulations and and I use Microsoft world for uh for this so thank you very much Microsoft for for this amazing technology and then I usually send the regulation to my director uh through Outlook so that's the second one and since I'm very Tech Sai I I I keep it in the cloud but not everyone is doing this so so that all their workmates won do this so this is basically my my scope of of technology so for for me it was very interesting to to to take a step back and look to the wider government because the government is the most of our countries is is the biggest company in in in our company in our country so uh we do many things and and technology is everywhere or if not should be uh most like more probably everywhere right so I'm going to highlight five areas of uh government activity in Spain where we find uh I think good applications of of technology and and I I could highlight maybe some of of the challenges in in in some of the areas right so the first area I would tackle is the closest one to to to my to my task which is policy work so so um at the Trey we have a very good uh financial analysis unit because so we issue dep so we need to be very aware of of Market market conditions of demand Supply competitors so on so forth but also our ministry of economy in general has the task of assessing or an EV expost evaluation of any public policy right so uh economic analysis has really benefited uh from having available Micro Data everywhere and and indeed a key addition to uh talking about the capitalization of Nvidia these days is the the pre-existence of of Micro Data and the availability of Big Data otherwise AI would not be uh as trendy as as it is so for for the for the ministry for policy evaluation policy impact analysis it's key to have first of all big data and second of all uh having people training machine learning and exploiting this the this data so without any doubt this is key uh for for for Public Policy second area I would highlight what some authors are naming the algorithmic state right this discussion whether we are getting there so um the government um has the task of providing many public services many of them in in the form of subsidies and in the case of Spain we are a count of 47 million inhabitants so it's very challenging for a government to assess who has the right to specific subsidy and under which conditions and whether these conditions are kept throughout the life of the subsidy and so many complexities there so of course of course algorithms can can help a lot in this and for example in Spain we have uh since Co we had what we call in span is the Ingo minimal which is like a basic income scheme which was essential after covid and and we deployed this new basic income thanks to algorithms um some lessons also from from this uh task that we undertook because so so the the algorithm basically uh uh reviews the whole Spanish demography and analyzes who needs the basic income so we need to be very careful of the data that we are feeding into the algorithm because uh unfortunately our society is still very biased in terms of gender in terms in terms of race in terms of age um so if we introduce bias data into a state algorithm then we will have a very biased result and that's not what we want um so this is a lesson that we took from the first months of implementing this and thanks God uh then we we we we correct everything and and and the implementation was extremely successful uccessful in in in our government uh so we we need to uh uh because with algorithms what we want to to do is providing public goods we need to take into account and reduce inequalities then we need to be very mindful of not creating new digital divides yeah because uh it is very likely that the people that is going to get benefited from this public intervention through technology are people that are not very comfortable using technology so so this is a red line uh for for providing good public services in in in my opinion and also we need to be very mindful of respecting administrative law and the rights of our citizens so uh automating all public decisions is good it can be very efficient but there is a right of recourse uh there there are many rights that we have been creating in this 200 years of administrative law that ensure protection and and Trust in in in in public action so that needs to be built into the architecture of of how we use a for example so so this is like the first step of granting a subsidy but the second step is actually paying the subsidy and and this technical feature of of settling a funds transaction is a is a field of huge potential uh use of Technology as well for example the use of instant payments for example in Spain we have BM which is a a very successful uh instant payment solution more than uh 90% of transfers in Spain are now instant transfer than thanks to bism um cbdcs if implemented in the future governments need to use this kind of new technologies uh it's it's ridiculous that the private sector could start you pain in 10 seconds and then governments can can do that right so so that would be a failure um so beyond this algorithm State um a third area of um public use of technology I would say well we unfortunately governments need to finance themselves um and we are actually being financed using very traditional technology with 30 40 years old since late 80s uh early early '90s right the way we issue public debt and um of course DLT is is uh in the conversation as well uh in Spain actually now since last year uh companies can issue shares and bonds in DT it's something that it's in our Securities Law already a second question is whether the treasury wants to uh issue public debt uh on distributed leer Technologies right and then here the the the two considerations we we usually think of the treasur is first of all is it efficient it seems so it seems that uh dlts can reduce settlement time from two days T plus2 which is the current settlement deadline to to almost instant um it can contribute to this Vision that the bank of international settlements usually has of one L for the financial system so integrating customer transaction but also uh asset transaction in the same technology so there's a lot of transparency a lot of visibility no need of collateral so really very efficient but from the perspective of the treasury what we need is also first of all interest in the market so are investors interested in buying DT bonds are they different for investors to normal bonds because if they are interested in buying if DLT bonds then then it will be cheaper for governments to to to issue these kind of bonds as it is the case for green bondes so of course governments issue green bondes because we're very committed with the green transition but also because there is a grum there is some discount uh that that the treasury benefits from usually at least this is the this is the case for Spanish green bones um a fourth area of interest of Technology would be cyber security and I think I don't need to explain more in this area it is the it's a huge challenge for for National Security in general but uh it is also a great challenge for the digitalization of of our economies right uh cyber risk is positively correlated with the development of a country for developing countries is for developed countries it's a huge issue and if we take into account economic sectors then you can see in the data that the financial sector is the sector where cyber security exposure is rising the most in the last 10 years because of the digitalization of course of our sector so our bank of Spain our supervisors our governments need to take sa of security very seriously and last I will just touch briefly on this because I'm not a supervisor but of course subtech it's uh since supervision is done by the public authorities uh independent authorities in GES of of the EU um there's a huge uh scope for there's a huge room for using micro dat to predict uh infringements um to to learn more about the market research of course with some caveats as well because we don't want to jump into a Minority Report uh situation the Tom Cruz movie if if you remember where uh they able to predict crime and therefore arrest the criminal before committing a crime we need to be careful of of these kind of situations for obvious reasons for out our tax authorities or central banks so let's try to predict but let's not go that far right so yeah I I think this is uh General overview of how we see it in Spain I think it's fantastic because you started off by saying I I'm not an expert in all of this and then I think you've really well set out that question at the beginning that you put up from the webinar Ian which is what even is fintech and I think you've really set out kind of how broad this can be so covering off from policy um work and economic analysis for example to the algorithms that you use to decide who would get benefits and then technology to pay people uh those benefits and then the DLT in terms of kind of raising Finance um for the government and then in the space of kind of the vulnerabilities around the finance sector and your Economic Security on the Cyber side and then finally looking at the supervision area of supervision and predicting possible problems so whole range of things there so really loads of food for thought thank you so much Diego that's fantastic Sandy coming over to you for the last thoughts before I will throw back to the audience sure okay U well firstly thank you very much for inviting me on the panel today um we're here not as a government body but a as a bank that wants to support government uh Innovations in the UK and Beyond um a bit of context is that um we're not a fintech we're a reg Tech because we're a regulated bank and we provide bi technology so that just confuses everybody with the fintech definition as well um just context on clearbank um clearbank was created in the UK out of pure necessity and frustration uh there were four clearing banks in the UK um all constrained by Legacy platforms uh risk appetites lack of innovation Etc um so the concept of clear Bank was created in 2015 um we spent the year working with The Regulators uh Bank um payment instruments Etc and then put a company together in April 2016 uh we put our submission into the FCA in the summer of 2016 um and we were regulated by the December of 2016 uh and then immobilization until November 2017 and a b a fully fledged Bank since that day we're a very different bank to the other four clearing banks in the UK uh we had the ability to be open minded in terms of Technology because we didn't have a legacy platform and we didn't have customers so there's no fear factor of migrations and upgrades and such like so we partnered with Microsoft um we are a cloud native solution uh everything we do is in the cloud we created our own payments platform so we don't Outsource we don't use any gateways we don't use any third parties and we connect directly to the payment schemes in the UK using an ISO 222 payment platform so when things go wrong we didn't want to rely on third parties when they do go wrong it's our developers that are UK based um owned by clear bank that actually deployed the software they maintain the software and enhance the software so we didn't want any Reliance on any third parties at all where also different to the other clearing banks in the UK is the fact that we don't offer services to anybody else other than regulated and public sector so we don't offer B2B nor b2c so we don't actually compete with our customers uh so agency banking perspective and the other four clearing banks in the UK B and HSBC and such like are providing the exact same service to the End customer as they do via an agency banking provider so we don't do that we only provide services to regulated we've been UK Centric today um we are directly connected to chaps backs faster payments and check and credit clearing and we are also principal members of visa and MasterCard so everything from a UK payments perspective we are directly connected to U we offer real accounts we offer virtual accounts all of our clients receive a dedicated and unique sort code uh and they then have access to our API and are in control of their Destiny 24/7 so we can create accounts on the Fly make payments on the Fly um we've also fairly recently applied for a European license and we hope to launch clear Bank Europe in the summer of this year and we have further ambition for expand ion into the US and hope to um plan to launch clear Bank Us in the summer of next year the benefit of that that gives us from a technical perspective is crossb payments so someone in the UK as a clear Bank customer moving to uh funds to a clear Bank customer in Europe that is a 24x7 instant access crossb transaction all processed in the cloud HSM encryption at both ends of the equation and the reason we're here really today is to talk about government and how we support government uh and there some some significant use cases paypoint comes for ex to to name um I think a question was raised earlier about you know how the homelessness people receive funds and such like the projects we have with paypoint which has picked up a number of awards recently it is for that exact purpose so anybody that DWP deems um worthy of receiving a benefit payment um paypoint create a onetime use only QR code the individual takes that QR code to any one of pay pay points outputs which I think is about 24,000 retailers in the UK they present the QR code and the paypoint retailer gives them exactly that money down to coins which is obviously an advantage to ATMs where you car dispense coins so from that perspective as long as the DWP have confirmed that the individual is to receive that money the collaboration between paypoint and clearbank allows that benefit to receive that money through an outlet of 24 thou 24,000 resellers and and obviously opening hours far great and things like the post office and such like um we also support a company called allay which provides payments to Glasgow and B Birmingham councils uh and we've recently been listed on the crown commercial service for open banking uh we provide a confirmation of pay service and in partnership with EOS spend that provide open banking um so collaboration is where we are the contentions point we want to raise is is everybody thinks digitization is a good step forward to us it's a pathway towards transformation digitizing a manual process is not good enough transformation is looking at the process and is that process fit for purpose today with all of the ability to for asking fintech to provide real time access and straight through processing yeah all of our clients initiate a payment their side we put that through to the payment scheme and we send back a web hook in near real time with all of the information from the scheme not a subset it's not a report it's realtime data that rich data can be used to enhance services for the end user so what we're looking to do is support government to create better outcomes for government and for the consumers so we're here to actually promote thought and offer different opportunities than batch processing and such like and it's Rich data things are coming forward you know AP AI all of those areas that we work with and now benefit of realtime processing and Rich data helps to sport all of those so it's just basically us here promoting the idea that there are other Alternatives you know to the traditional banks in the UK we provide a far superior service in terms of access the data and processing that data and uh be happy to speak to every anybody uh there often thank you brilliant thank you so much Sandy I really like what you said at the end because we do lots of events on digital transformation in general and I think that key thing because it's coming up as one of the foundations for fintech is you have to have done the work and I think that point about you can't just digitalize a bad process you know you have to do that transformative work behind the scenes and I think only then will you be able to maximize the full potential of all the new technologies um I'm really interesting to hear your um case study on uh your use case example the pay points I hope that's answered uh that question at the back there um I have one question because you said that you so one question I think for um Dena and Diego based on what you said that you had the freedom of not having Legacy systems in place and my one question to Diego anded before I go to the audience is we do in the public sector have these huge Legacy issues is the cost of modernization do you think one of the biggest challenges when it comes to the extent to which the public sector can actually adopt new technology um Dean I'll come to you first um well I think that uh I I should rephrase the the famous Margaret Teter say uh you either transform or die yes she said you rather export or you die but I I I think in this respect you uh you have to understand that um if you want uh to make um uh the service which is offered by the public Authority uh timely um um let's say uh not costly to the taxpayers uh you have to you you have to face uh all the issues which which are uh which have to be dealt with a transformation so uh I I I would not say that it should be uh made at any cost but if you are not transforming you will not be coping with the real economy uh you will not be coping uh and going in line with uh what is your econom eony uh development so uh I think that uh government have to be one of the leaders in this process not the lagger behind so I think that uh this is the the most important aspect uh um the innovation of course is not coming in a in a in a plain field it it comes with uh uh respective uh of course uh will to make the innovation then of course the dedication uh of uh of certain actors which are leading this process but uh but of course the uh you you should not uh disregard the the that the cost for not uh not innovating will be more than the cost of innovating in the future yes thanks and Diego from sitting in treasury because I guess departments would always look to their treasuries and say well you're not giving us the money that we need to do this transformation I mean it's a matter of money of course as everything in in life but I would not say it's the biggest challenge uh so we have Legacy systems of course it's natural can be other way but uh from my personal point of view it would be the biggest challenge would be a skills um human capital challenge I mean it's pointless to have the best technology if you don't have people that knows how how to run this technology or the purpose of of why doing it so so for for me the biggest challenge is how to attract people with technological knowledge to the administration taking into account that by definition and and and financial and fiscal responsibility restrictions no normal government will be able to pay as much as the private sector can that that that that that's a fact so we have very good lawyers in the public sector we have very good economists this not this is not happening with with technology experts and and we want to supervise now all Technologies we want to create the best framework so we we we need this this this these people right and there's a problem with uh because you briefly touch upon don't remember who who touch upon this the the the procurement Pro problems right so an additional challenge of procuring Technologies for the private sector in my opinion is the fact that the public sector cannot be dependent on private actors so we can use Technologies we can leverage on on this it's where Innovation is taking place of course in the private sector should should be this way but we cannot the the end of the of the journey cannot be a situation where public services are are run and decided and and and depend completely dependent on on on on the private sector because uh it's I mean there's a duty of transparency there's a duty of of of how we do public things uh that the private sector that does not have in front of parliament in front of citizens election so so on so forth so um I can see there's a reaction to that already in the room so Ian's put his hand up for that one can we get the mic we need to learn to the yeah perfect Diego because he picked up on procurement it was a question I wanted to ask because um DEA also raised it as the challenge for finex or regex uh to get on um uh public rosters it was question for Sandy actually because Sandy referred to the uh European uh expansion plans for Clear Bank um I guess with any company expanding across Europe there are various challenges to what extent is getting into those different countes procurement rosters for for whichever Services you see provide in different countries going to be you think one of one of the main obstacles for for Clear Bank in Europe and I won't ask about America because I'm sure that's it totally different challenge yeah I mean it it it's been a challenge uh to a certain degree there was naivity on our side I think we took our UK FCA application submission um to a regulator and assume they might rubber stamp that and we've been authorized straight away and it wasn't that way we had to start from ground zero and go through an entire process um we were working with a particular regulator um we were working for almost 2 years and didn't make a great deal of progress um so then la launched another opportunity with a different regulator and is that regulator that's actually worked with us today so yes there were challenges um some of it was our naivity I I I accept some of it was bad timing because this was all around brexit and this was all when an awful lot of activity was was being laid upon The Regulators so they were inundated with requests um but it's it's not been plain soling you know we we assumed that you know being the UK regulated Bank by the FCA that that would carry a certain amount of credibility um and I don't think it carries as much as we thought so everybody's reviewed you know equally from a new application perspective um and of course from a European perspective you know you're going into one country you don't have to go through ECB then have the passport so you we're starting today in the Netherlands and say we hopefully launch clear Bank Europe at the back end of the summer uh and then we have plans the passport um there's been a big period of understanding from a European perspective particularly iband discrimination something we had no idea of you know when we started this journey into Europe and uh I remember having conversations with with the EU about you know this this discrimination and um I said but why don't you create an EU iban and mask the particular individual country's iban um because you're not going to get people like Swift and Banks to change the existing ey bands to A New U EU but you could actually mask all of them with an EU iband so every beneficiary receives money from an EU iband not a particular descending and there's a lot of there's a lot of discussions I think should have been had that aren't being had so life could be straightforward and I don't think Europe is as harmonized as it could be so it's a journey and and we know that journey is not over so we're um I'll say hoping to launch in um the back end of the summer U from a US perspective the Strategic decision has been made not to apply for a license uh we're going to acquire um and then rename and such like there's a much quicker route to Market so life could be easier most definitely thanks who would like to have the next question I mean if there's not a question from the audience at the moment I want to pick up again on what you said about Ai and and the extent to which that you think AI is going to fundamentally change the landscape is this something that you think the public sector is prepared for we might come back to skills again but it's kind of already here so my question is how well prepared is the public sector for what AI is going to do in terms of transforming the way that we work oh well I think that uh there are not only challenges but also the benefits for the public sector uh using Ai and in particular there are already the solutions which which was mentioned as uh uh supervisory Technology Solutions for example where you can use uh AI tools um uh to look for example at the transactions and to avoid the uh fraud um so I think this these tools can be uh definitely uh very widely used by the supervisory uh authorities and the uh supervisory population as such because I think that uh one of one of the issues which which can be um can be identified very easily with this these uh pattern analysis is a is is this detection of the fraud uh detection of the suspicious transactions and uh of course of course uh also there is there is this aspect of uh of uh whether the speed of payments and and the and and AML will be uh could be tackled at the same time I I I would say that we should use uh use the the speed of analysis of transactions the AI is is is is uh is doing for exactly the detection of the AML for example also by by the private entities um the awareness uh of the public sector is I think uh much much more on a on a higher higher level than it was it has been before uh but of course uh there have to be also um again the education towards uh what is what is exactly Ai and how AI can be used in the provision of the public services and also supervisory authorities uh supervisory activities I I think this this is also still some way to go and we've got a session our one of our final sessions this afternoon we'll be looking at fighting financial fraud uh and I'm sure AI will come up in that session Diego you mentioned the using AI already but the possibility of kind of the risks of AI in terms of possible biases so is that something that you're already very concerned about the the mean yeah both both the potential opportunities but also the risks so so yeah so so in in in terms of uh so first in terms of challenges and then potential opportunity because it's the answer to challenges and the way I I think about this issue um so it as as you said it comes back to to skills um and I think the the AI regulation that we just passed in the EU is aware of this because it mandates all member states to create AI sandboxes um because it's a recognition of maybe member states are not prepar to understand the private sector and the private sector is confused as to what are what are the supervisory expectations so it it came back in the beginning of the first panel but sandboxes are a very useful tool and I hope that they're very useful to to adapt skills in the two sides of of the market and the supervisor supervisor so since it's a complex task I think we need to prioritize AI cases uh in in the public sector right it's true that if you look at the market there is a lot of techno optimism related to uh Ai and and much of it comes because of the G cost cost cutting potential of AI right it's a huge driver of adoption in the market and that's the logic of the market so and it's okay it should be like this but governments still do not need to behave necessarily by a cost cutting logic because there's accountability and and and there's public trust involved so if uh if if just by cost cutting you're going to give very bad public services or uh attention to vulnerable people old people like our countries are are getting old um then it's not worth it uh because we need to preserve public Trust in public services so uh we need a prioritization and to really really F see in which Fields AI can can deliver to everyone I think this is the reflection that we need to do thanks sander your final thoughts on AI both as you're seeing it being used in the public se but also are you using it yourselves limited for us in many respects because all of our customers are regulated and they do the B2B and b2c so they'll be using AI not a lot more than us I think AI is is not generally understood in terms of what it actually means certainly from a general public perspective I think there's Fear Factor of of Big Brother you know getting access to all of my data generally at Fear Factor is people that may have something to hide I mean most of the general public today you know aren't overly concerned about their data because they've got nothing to hide there's also Fear Factor about you know how it's going to impact jobs because at the moment you've got teams of analytical guys looking in in for transactional fraud and such like well that job will be machined you know so but what does that mean mean from a from a impact a humans perspective I think the bias is is another interesting aspect that it's got to be done I mean two things you got have Rich data and an awful lot of Rich data and you got to have ai that's completely unbiased um so I think it does have a play I don't think we actually and none of us understand how that's going to play out at the moment we as a technical provider um are open and supportive of using technology to help you know the general public better outcomes you know reduce fraud Etc so I think at this at this point in time is kind of watch this space and see how things develop brilliant thank you so much I'm again looking at our clock I think we are out of time but um please join me first in saying a big thanks to our panel so to Dena to Diego and Sandy thank you so much