foreign Myers and I own harvesting Co we're a custom Cabinet furniture shop located in Kalamazoo we've been in business for seven and a half years previously I was in the education field as a high school teacher and I resigned 40 four and a half years ago to take the business full-time at that point we had been doubling in sales each year which it was like craft shows and just small things and the breaks in the summertime but it was a big leap of faith and started out doing a lot of carpentry and kind of Labor subcontracting for a few other contractors around town between here and Grand Rapids and we started to get more shelving and then that led to more built-ins and bookcases and furniture and so now we have honed in and we are strictly custom Cabinetry and Furniture such as tables dressers and beds can you tell us a little bit about the Investments that you had to make to like make your first project or to get to where you are now we've been into business right after we bought our first house and it was not a two-car garage it was a little smaller so rather than try to fit a car in there made it a shop and came up with a business plan made some of our own furniture at the time reclaimed materials were really big so we tried to work with that and that quickly went away design wise but I had cordless tools that I think my dad had gotten me when I was in college or graduate school and hand tools I bought a Harbor Freight toolbox that summer because you need a toolbox in the garage and then I borrowed my father-in-law's miter saw and I used that for the longest time until we made a little bit more money and I was able to buy my own and give it give his back to him so that's really what I started with the cordless tools my father-in-law's miter saw I think I bought a little Ryobi Mouse sander the Little Triangle one and then that died pretty quickly so we went to a Ridgid and eventually Nikita and now we have festival and those don't die so that's where we started in the garage with those tools and just kind of as we built the business and did more projects I could buy like a spindle sander I eventually got a table saw a rigid job site one air filtration for the ceilings kind of about it as far as all that I needed a Kreg Jig for pocket holes when I went full time we sold our house moved in with my in-laws and my shop was in the back of a horse barn in South County down as far south as you can go in Vicksburg I had to put heat in it wasn't insulated I think even at that time my main upgrade I had while there is I bought my first track saw and then we were only there for nine months or so and then we moved down the street from here about June of 2019. we moved down there and at that time I bought the cabinet saw that's over there I bought the dust collector I bought a festival vacuum eventually a festival my first sander we were down there for three months and the landlord sold that building and bought this building moved us all those tenants down here and since then we've upgraded we've got the 20 inch helical head planer an eight inch helical head Joiner we've got an extra dust collector router table compressor I upgraded the miter saw we've got a dovetail jig we've got a cordless track saw Festival Rotex sander an extra vacuum upgraded to a Craig Foreman just because it's a lot sturdier more stable and if you're doing pocket holes and back in February I drove down to Kentucky who wanted some things at auction down there including material but also the line boring drill which gave us these very nice shelf thin holes makes the process a whole lot more efficient and quicker cleaner holes so that's really about it as far as kind of our equipment upgrades and where we've gone some things because we install our own work um we found that you know you might need an extra impact or an extra drill especially having an employee we need extra tools to accommodate that we've also switched over our nail guns to cordless for on-site because it's hard to Lug in a compressor we have a compressor we got a quiet one and I was at a job two months ago and it died while I was trying to charge it up in the garage it's like well I'm without a compressor do I buy another compressor or do I get the cordless gun and then I can just use that on site and I'm not you know around chords and machine so you know we definitely have had the shop upgrades for our shop work we have a few more planned within the next month or two that will really dial in our efficiency you've looked around the shop it's kind of the mess we don't have a lean setup we're lean minded or I'm lean-minded wanting to make sure our processes are better more efficient allowing for greater productivity and so part of that is cleaning up the space and trying to make the flow as good as we can based on where our power is but we've also got some machine upgrades coming that will greatly decrease time on certain processes so we can get to building quicker and get to installation quicker when we in do our installs we have those tools set aside to go out so that we're not without in the shop and they're just a bit more convenient how much money you need to invest to become a full-time burglary depends what kind of woodworking you're doing I mean there's different niches when I started it was out of our own pocket and then as we built the business because I was still working full-time put everything back into the business so that I could get more tools and grow and and do those kinds of things and now we have much larger jobs that I mean we've upgraded because we have an employee we have a decent shop space you know we've got a big 16 foot cargo trailer to haul our cabinets and so there's in terms of that as you're scaling and growing you're making smart business decisions I mean when I had a smaller trailer before and I was planning ahead looking at our jobs and seeing well gosh we've got this kitchen remodel coming up there is no way I can fit all the kitchen cabinets plus our Tools Plus the trim it's going to take multiple trips so I sold my trailer and so I had such a good deal on my trailer when I bought it I I don't think I lost anything when I sold it and then I found a bigger trailer in Ohio and got that was able to pay cash for it which was it just blew my mind at that point because you're growing and you're growing and if you are making wise decisions as far as how you're spending your money and where in the business that was the first time I wrote a check with that many digits and it blew my mind that I was doing that and you know now we do it more frequently when we order larger material orders oh here's a check for several Grand or you know to pay the subcontractors what have you and so it's just it's a mental shift working with that much [Music] I mean for me it was when I went full time I had a couple of furniture pieces and so we had our and it was based on the equipment that I had so I was in a way I was limiting myself based on the skill set I had and the tools that I had and as we got a larger job if I saw well shoot if I have this tool it could be more beneficial and so I'm going to make that investment and it will pay out in the long run like my first trailer when I did deliveries whether it was to Grand Rapids or I did a few out to the Chicago area I rented a trailer you know I could run a trailer for 40 50 bucks for a weekend go do the delivery and come back and I did that a few times you're like okay so maybe now I've spent you know a few hundred bucks on a trailer but now I'm gonna go full time and I'm going to be able to use this trailer to haul tools or to haul material to go get material I don't have to rely on deliveries or other people or what will fit in our vehicle and so I made that decision to get a trailer and I was using that like twice a week after that so when you're upgrading equipment or tools you want to make sure are you going to get your all your your return on right what's your expected Ori we've got plans to get a sliding table saw next which is a hefty machine upgrade but as I've talked to other cabinet makers and done my research we found when we do our cut list for Cabinetry it could take on average say two to three hours to do a cut list for a decent sized set of built-ins and if we had the sliding table saw we can have it done in 20 minutes so you're two to three hours on average or 20 minutes well now if you multiply that and you're doing a full kitchen set of cabinets that could take us you know a day maybe into a day and a half to do a full cut list of sheet Goods with the foam board with the track saw resetting it measuring and with the sliding table saw we can have that done in half a day and now we have a full day left to start building and so in that sense as we look at our lean processes and just how to be more productive you know we're investing in equipment that allows us to get from start to install much quicker which means we get paid sooner which means we can start the next job sooner and so it's not that we're trying to blow through things and go and do it faster we just want to do it better with better precision and better quality you talk about your advertising and how you get your customers so in the past I mean we would post on social media share it on Facebook that was really about it I try to fly her in a grocery store once and I did get one customer out of that when I went full time I made the decision to get a logo on my vehicle and then I got my trailer and so the trailer had the decal on it and I I had a small SUV at the time a Trailblazer had that on there then when I got my I had a truck got that lettered people see it around town I'll get people that come find me at Lowe's hey is that your truck out there and it's another contractor wanted to talk or I had a lady call me this morning just to to introduce herself and to say we've seen your truck around town and we want to thank you for being a good example of a of a tradesperson advertising that way but also with how clean your vehicle is like you haven't seen the inside of it I run a cabinet shop but her point was that her husband runs a like a glass installation company I think and they have guys on their crew that just aren't keeping their trucks nice looking and the whole point is people see it around town they recognize it and they're gonna you know that might be a way that they call you and um I get people sometimes taking pictures when they pass me on the road or you know roll the window down but other than that just organic search on Google I got Google my business and I take a look at that we have SEO on our website it's not perfect but it's decent enough for the size of our company and we're currently working with a marketing agency in town to help us with targeted Facebook ads because we're looking to effectively expand our product line so in Kalamazoo we are known for Cabinetry and built-ins in most of our clientele for Cabinetry actually all of our clientele is here in Kalamazoo however our furniture that we've made over the years I can count on one hand how many pieces have gone to Kalamazoo the rest have gone to Illinois Grand Rapids Metro Detroit and really I don't mind that we deliver across Michigan but we want to be able to increase that where we're at and then outside as well so we're working with the team to create more conscientious advertising in that regard and aside from our logo and and decal and lettering on our truck and trailer this will be the first time that we've actually paid for advertising you were saying that you do other stuff other than cabinets first one I guess is the main or do they split it the market in Kalamazoo is consistent with Cabinetry and built-ins so we're going to continue down that path however I really love and designing Furniture when I designed cabinets and Furniture I try to adhere as much as I can to Universal Design which is uh also called Aging in place so it's this mentality that it is safe and functional and accessible for little kids all the way up to older folks who maybe can't get around really well on our furniture designs our table designs we do a pretty extensive radius on the corners and round overs or chamfers because we're really trying to break any Edge that there is right it's like the plywood here has a sharp edge so you know if you sit at a table and you're eating and you put your arms on the table eventually you get that crease in there it might hurt feel a little irritated now imagine you're walking by a table and you run into it now you've got the point of the corner running into your thigh that's going to leave a bruise and it's going to hurt whereas with our furniture because we ease those edges and we curve it at the or do a radius yeah it's gonna hurt because you hit it but it's a little bit more blunt instead of sharp and you know impactful so we try to be a lot more conscientious there with our finishes as well so they hold up to adults drinking wine or kids coloring at the table the Cabinetry is Big here but I I love designing furniture and want to pursue that more and so we're working with a business consultant and we're working with a marketing agency to see how we can grow that side of it but it has a purpose too besides me getting to be creative I have felt the Lord's calling to create a apprenticeship effectively in the thought of Redemptive employment where we would work say with the Kalamazoo Gospel Mission to create a six-month paid on the job apprenticeship where a couple of men will come in they'll learn the skills of woodworking how to use a tape measure how to use the saw why we use different blades different types of hardwood we'll work with them on starting to make some cutting boards and then we'll scale into tables is the goal so if we can bring in these table orders well now we have a few guys that are able to work on that and really explore the Redemptive nature of here is a wood that was sawed from a tree and now it's this beautiful dining table that people can gather at and enjoy each other's company share meals play cards color with the kids whatever and so the benefit of building tables and pursuing that is twofold I get to be creative and it leads to a safe Redemptive opportunity for men that are coming out of either homelessness or incarceration or just a rough time and they need that stable footing for the projects how how long does it take from start to finish on furniture we typically say four to six weeks and that gives us time to procure material we do a lot of metal and steel bases and so we've got to be able to order those and get those in if they're going to a powder coater that's a little bit extra time so we give ourselves four to six weeks time frame to get a custom table our Cabinetry it really depends on the job I'd say from start to finish in a project we're probably two to four weeks it's pretty pretty decent estimation that being said we are booked out through the second quarter of the new year on Cabinetry so we have jobs lined up and it's just that we're trying to you know get one project finished and as that one is being worked on the next one is getting started so we're having this workflow something that we've had to consider in the sense of growing and scaling is which processes of an entire build can we improve on right so I mentioned if we get a sliding table saw that will immensely cut down on our Cutlass time so we can do all the prep of material and then we can start to build well after we build then we prep it for finish and we've got our spray booth and that's been great and kind of out of necessity but I really don't like paints I enjoy doing clear coat and spraying that but I really don't like spraying pigmented finish if I could I would sub that out and then move on to something else and so we're actually teaming up with a painting company a few minutes down the road who we know and we've worked with them in the past and we're looking at them taking on our finishing in the New Year where you know we can prep we can build prep for finish go drop off and in the week they're doing the finishing we're moving on to the next one and then when that's done the finishers we can pick it up and go install and we know they're going to give a much better quality finish than what we've been able to give we've honed ours in and it's really good but I know if I leave it to the pros on that they'll do a fine job and then we can really focus on the design build and install and so that's that's taking a process out of ours that we don't have to necessarily worry about in the day-to-day and it frees up more space for doing bigger projects our biggest project to date Revenue wise would be a kitchen remodel we have going on currently out on Eagle Lake in Matawan um that one on our end and I I say RM because the clients are covering the fixtures they're handling the countertops the tile uh the painting The the client is a semi-retired house painter so he's he's painted the walls and primed that but we're gonna be at the end of the day like on RN 50 to 60 000 in there we've got a few things we need to add in that we've had to change um and then with what they're doing it's probably a 75 to 80 000 remodel to how they want it before that our biggest one was a kitchen remodel we did in Millwood and that was 20 to 22 000. it was a smaller kitchen but again we took it on because hey we did work for one of their kids and their family and then we went in and we built the Cabinetry so we really handled that and then subbed out the electrical and the plumbing and then on this one it was again we had done work for for adult sun and we got connected with them about a year ago we were hoping to be done on our end the week before Christmas which will be a nice Christmas gift to them so it's been one of our larger projects we actually have a few projects coming up I'm trying to think one is well right now like our our average built-in size with lowers and uppers and shelves and mantle right now that's probably about eight grand on average and part of that is just inflation and materials going up in price we've just we've got quite a few projects that have started to hit over 10 000 between 10 and 20 000 in their cost and I'm not saying that like hey look at you know we're marking this up we're not we're trying to we're competitive we're at the market rate providing a good service and product and it's just kind of where things have gone and so you know we're getting higher end customers we're getting better work that costs more and that certainly lends a hand to our growth Furniture wise our dining tables start around like 26 2700 and up depending on the the design and the size of it we've done some custom pieces and those are several Grand but they're custom and so they're a lot more involved in terms of thought and designed execution what are some of the biggest expenses that come with blood working it'd be your material cost would be you know if you're upgrading equipment if you are not working out of your garage or a pole barn on your property then you're having the lease space and so then you have rent you have utilities you have insurance when you hire an employee you have the employees payroll you have taxes you have workers comp like the workers comp is more than my commercial policy and uh between the liability and inland marine and truck and trailer so that's something to keep in mind that you don't always hear about what's called the labor burden and Ryan's not a burden but the labor burden being that you have your salary but then you have all those other things so let's say you're paying someone 20 25 bucks an hour well that's actually costing you like between 40 and 50 bucks because you have to consider your taxes you have to consider the workers comp and the insurance and so that's something to bear in mind you know it's not just oh you know he's going to make say 35 40K in a year that's all out of my pocket well no actually let's add 10 to that right so that's affecting your bottom line in our case because we're a more established business and we have an employee and we're looking to have more employees like I said you have that payroll you have the insurance the taxes um clearly we're in an industrial space so we have rent you have utilities we're fortunate to have our utilities and internet included but if you don't then you have to consider that access to a dumpster so there's all these little things that you have when you're running a business that you have to consider in your cash flow what are some of the biggest positives and biggest negatives to be working there aren't many negatives I mean for a lot of people woodworking starts as a hobby and it did that for me but I had this entrepreneurial itch on how can I support my family and do a side hustle how can we add a little more to the bank account and now it's you know now it's given us a stable income to support my family but I also get to be relational and to work with customers build relationships with them and I really enjoy the relational aspect building that connection one of the negatives sometimes you get a customer who you know just expects their project to be done sooner or to take precedence and so we're really working towards like hey you are this place in our schedule or two people we're gonna do the best that we can we still run into you know delays from Material getting in or from other trades and there's delays and so it's just reality and you really have to be more aware of that and be more but just more aware more kind gracious maybe like once a year be good at customer they're like why do we do this job but for the most part we have great clients who seek us out because they know what they want in their space and they want us to help Envision and design it and create it for them and they're willing to wait what are some of the woods that you work with what are some positive Woods or maybe easier than what are some like bad ones that you want to practice in terms of wood for furniture or face frames were strictly Hardwoods if it's paint grade we do it depends on the client um if there's a lot of kids or it's a high traffic area we still cook Maple because it's it's hard it's durable with the Finish it's good to go if there's not going to be a lot of traffic or it's not near the floor we sometimes will use Poplar for face frames because again it's paint grade it takes finish really well and with the right finish it'll still be hard our furniture we like building with Ash White Oak Walnut sometimes Maple with cabinets besides the the face frames we work with plywood this particular project is a red oak plywood that's getting stained dark we have a built-in project down there that one is a popular face frame and mostly MDF we don't use MDF a whole ton but this is a project that is being inserted into a bedroom closet as a built-in and it's being finished on site and MDF is really good for paint grade so we decided to do that also as a cost thing when we build paint grade Cabinetry if the Interiors are not getting finished we use a pre-finished plywood so that it's already coated we don't have to do anything with it and then the same thing with the shell Lane and a pre-finished edge banding if it's paint grade and it's getting finished we use maple so V2 Maple plywood is what we use for that we have three tips of advice for other entrepreneurs be hungry yet teachable right so you want to be able to like have a growth mindset I want to grow and do time I want to do the best things that I can to get a better quality product make the processes more efficient and more lean because if you can do it more productively and more lean than as far as time goes it's costing less per unit of time so you're you're making more in that sense and then as far as always learning I post on Instagram for example I don't get a lot of I rarely get clients from Instagram but I like it because of the woodworking community and I can connect with other makers and other cabinet makers across the country and you know pick things up that they're doing whether it's guys who are strictly cabinet installers they'll point out hey you know we're doing this for this cabinet install this is why it makes sense then I can think oh maybe I should include that in the next build because I'm going to have to install it so if I think in the process ahead of time that might benefit me you know I can see designs that others are coming up with and why they're doing it how they're putting it together so being teachable wanting to learn having the ability to take that initiative and do it and then as far as launching a business there's a an amount of risk to it you have to be willing to take that risk and step out in faith for us for my wife and I our faith is really huge like it's the core thing for our business and when we went full time it was a huge leap of faith when we went into this shop it was a leap of faith we've got a leap of faith coming up with a big equipment purchase and we're trusting that not only the Lord provides but that the the clients like the work that we do because of just how we've run the business so far [Music]