Transcript for:
Witness Testimony: Brian Albert 2024

your next witness Mr L yes the call to call excuse me Mr Brian Albert to the stand [Music] [Music] please step you the the court jury case here the truth to hold and nothing but the truth so hope you come I do thank [Music] [Applause] you all right whenever you're ready Mr L thank you uh good afternoon sir good afternoon good afternoon your honor and good afternoon to the jury good afternoon so could you uh please state your name spell your last name sure it's Brian last name Albert a l b r t and uh where do you I live in Norwood Massachusetts and how long have you lived in Norwood uh approximately a year and uh who if anyone you live in Norwood with uh my wife Nicole and my son Brian and my son brandan actually just a little bit about your family as far as um let me start with uh yourself and your wife Nicole how long have the two of you been there uh approximately 29 years and were you together for a period of time prior to getting married yes we've known each other since we were 13 14 years old and uh do you have any siblings sir I do and how many siblings you have um I have five brothers and one sister and um if you could just as far as uh are you the oldest I'm the oldest of seven yes and uh as far as your brothers and sisters are concerned uh what are their names and and if you could rank them s of b um sure the uh next uh sibling after me is my sister Kathleen then I have a brother Chris a brother Kevin a brother Keith um a brother Brendan and a brother Timmy and uh you and your wife Nicole do you have children of your own yes and how many children do you have five and uh how old are they so my oldest daughter is 29 uh my son Brian is 2 5 um my son Brendan turns 23 today and I have twins or we have twins that are 20 years old Caitlyn's 28 I'm sorry I said 29 now um prior to living at your address in uh in Norwood uh where did you live before that uh Canton Canton Mass and how long have you live in C uh approximately in the house on faie road approximately 11 years and in total about how long have you been a resident again before moving to no um approximately 45 years um and that that address that's 34 Fairview Road is that right yes and um what if any relationship with that home or that residents have to your family before you and your your wife and your kids mov uh my parents had lived uh at that residence prior to us so you spend some of your childhood in that house as well yes and do you work sir I did uh retired now retired uh what did you what did you retire from uh the Boston Police Department and uh how long were you member of the Boston Police Department uh approximately 30 years and within the Boston Police Department were you assigned to any sort of specific unit or or special duties uh my last assignment is that what you're referring to yes yes uh my last assignment was the Boston police fugitive unit now sir if I could turn your attention to uh January 28th uh 2022 you recall that date yes and uh do you recall what day of the week that was the 28th um I believe was a Friday and uh when you first sort of got up on the 28th where where were you with that uh on the 28th I was in New York New York City and why had you gone to New York City so I went to New York for a funeral of a New York City police officer who was killed in the line of duty and about what time or what day did you go down to New York for that we went down the day before so I believe that was Thursday you recall how it was that you got down there yes um I flew I flew to New York and when you say we who if anyone went with you on that trip to New York for the I flew with a a friend and a cooworker um named Eddie Hernandez so another Boston police officer yes and down uh in New York at that funeral uh where there are other members of law enforcement that you knew were famili you with from working yes there were thousands of police officers that went to the funeral um and included uh within those uh people um you mentioned you have a brother Kevin is that correct yes see a police officer as well he is and where is he he's a detective in Canton Massachusetts and was he down at this funeral as well he was and do you know a gentleman by the name of Brian Higgins yes and was Brian Higgins at this funeral services yes he was and how is it that you know Brian Higgins so I know Brian Higgins initially from uh work a professional relationship um I've known him for or known of him for 10 or 15 years and then the past few years more recently we worked together on a uh closer basis and I became uh better friends with them and uh fair to say that when you became better friends with them you also sort of socialized with them outside of work yes now as far as your return trip from New York what if anything happened with that on the return trip from New York we drove back why did you drive versus fly back when you so that weekend there was um anticipated snow snowstorm and I believe the flight that we were taking with Jeff Jet Blue may have even been cancelled and Brian Higgins um was leaving in a vehicle um that morning so we ended up driving or after the funeral we ended up driving with him and uh so it's yourself Mr Higgins and then uh who if anyone else went with you on the drive back to to Massachusetts uh Eddie Hernandez and my brother Kevin and when you arrived uh back in Massachusetts where was it sort of specifically that you went first I initially went to Charlestown to pick up my vehicle where was your vehicle parked in charest it was at a u police station um Charlestown station it's a satellite station located in Charlestown and that was a reference to proximity to the airport is that correct yes so that would have been Logan that you flew out of and intended to fly back into Logan Airport yes and after you were dropped off uh with your vehicle what kind of vehicle was that uh that was a Ford Edge was that a personal vehicle or work uh work vehicle and uh so you get dropped back off at your work vehicle where did you go from so from Charlestown we drove um I drove back towards the Canton area and I met um Brian Higgins at a uh restaurant B called the hillside is that in Canton as well I believe so it's on the Canton Milton line I I believe it sits in can and what was the purpose of you and Mr H's going um after the drive home he asked if I wanted to get some food and stop off and I said yes and if you know about what time was it that you got to the hillside with M I want to say around around 9 9:30 perhaps not entirely sure when you arrived there what what did you um so we went into the establishment um and had a drink and and hung out for a while and did you order any food there I did not I believe Brian did though and while you were at the hillside uh with Mr Higgins uh what if any communication did you receive from your wife Nicole so around that time I talked to my wife um I think more than once and she had let me know that her and a few people people were at another location in Canton and she had asked if I wanted to to come by and see them what was that other location that other location was the waterfall is that an establishment you were familiar with yes you've been there before several times I had been there before yes and so you drove then from the hillside to the waterfall yes about how long a drive is that se maybe 7 Minutes between less than 10 minutes and so as you're going on that drive the snow that was anticipated coming in had that anything related to that started yet no I at that time I don't recall any snow and in relation to the waterfall where did you park uh in the parking lot for the waterfall which is adjacent to the to the door to to go inside so it's to the left if you're looking at the building from the from Washington Street and when you come into um now when you left the hillside Mr Higgins stayed there yes he stayed and when you came into uh the waterfall uh who if anyone was there so when I walked in I saw my wife uh my oldest daughter Caitlyn I saw my brother Chris his wife Julie um my brother-in-law Matt and my sister-in-law Jen and uh your brother-in-law Matt and your sister-in-law Jen their last name is mcab is that right yes and if you could just explain to the jury sort of how to where you were related as far as what is so my brother Chris's wife is Julie and then Nicole's sister is Jen and then Jen's husband is Matt McCabe and is it fair to say that you've probably known Jennifer McCabe about as long as you've known your wife Nicole yes since she was a little kid maybe six seven years old and uh you see these people and where are they sort of situated in the one so there was a high top table kind of in the front area as you walk in kind of in the middle of the room and everybody was just kind of around the high top table and what if anything uh was there as far as live entertainment at the waterfall that night yeah there was a band playing there and with reference to the people that you've just spoken as far as your wife and your daughter uh specifically were they at the highp table closer to the band or further away from so they were on the side of the table that's I guess closer to the door as as you come in and then there were other people on the opposite side of the table that was closer to the bar area and after you came into to the waterfall went up to uh to the group of your your family um what did you did you order anything what did you do there yeah I kind of just said hi to everybody um I don't recall exactly but I'm sure I ordered a drink um and then just kind of hung out with family and friends and um following your arrival uh who if anyone else uh showed up and eventually sort of joined your group there was another um couple at the table I don't know if they were there initially when I walked but there was another couple at the table whom I believed were there before I got there but I I just don't know what their names were and do you know how they were related to your group it it I don't I I think they are friends with Chen and Matt but I'm not 100% sure and uh where were they situated in reference to where your wife and your daughter so they were I believe to the right of this of this uh pretty logic TI top table so towards the other end of the table yes and uh if you recall um what were you drinking that I don't recall I usually um usually drink beer MC Ultra but I I can't remember that night what I what I was drinking now um following your arrival there and you meet up with your family where other um friends or family that that eventually showed up at this this establishment in Georgia group yes and who were they sir so after I was there maybe about a half hour uh Brian Higgins arrived at the location and um if you recall what if any sort of communication did you have with Mr Higgins or how how did Mr Higgins know to come to the waterfall specifically because while we were at the um Hillside I had mentioned that I was going to be leaving to go to the waterfall to see um my family who who was already there and I invited him to to come by if he wanted to and at any point in time sort of throughout the course of the day you yourself from Mr Higgins you had each other's sort of information and and cell numbers things like that yes okay and at any point in time throughout the course of the day uh or the evening did you have occasion to text or phone call or anything with Mr Higgins yes now after Mr Higgins arrived uh who if anyone else uh came into the waterfall and and Jo probably after about a half hour later from um Brian Higgins arriving um Jon O'Keefe um came into the waterfall with the defendant and that would have been probably about 11:00 is that correct yes and uh John o'keef uh if you could tell the jury um well first did you know John o'e so I knew John O'Keefe but not not well um I had only met him two times prior to that night but I knew I knew him to be a Boston cop and I knew um of him and I knew some some things about him and as far as um the Boston Police Department it's a fairly large Department would you agree with that yes and about how many members or how many people are on Boston Poli depending on the year I mean sometimes it's upwards of 2000 and through the course of your work over the decades that you worked with the Boston police did you ever work with or have any professional sort of interaction with no I don't remember working with him directly within the Boston Police Department were you aware of sort of what his role was or what he did within the Boston yes I knew where where he worked and where did he work um I believe he worked at the Sor unit um which is the uh sex offended registry unit and uh you mentioned uh just briefly before that you had heard of Mr O correct yes and what is it that you had heard about well I knew him to be a friend of um my sister-in-law Jen and her husband Matt um I knew him to be a friend of my brother Chris and my sister-in-law Julie um I knew him to be a friend of my brother Kevin's um I've heard his name mentioned multiple times and I knew that he had a horrible couple tragedies in his family and I knew that he um stepped up and decided to take care of his his niece and his nephew when they tragically lost is their parents and how would you sort of describe your relationship with with John o'keef uh at this time January 28th 2022 although I didn't know him well I considered him to be a friend and our relationship was was very very good cordial and um you know I considered him to be um somebody that I could hang out with and and have a good time with now you mentioned uh that Mr O'Keefe walked in around 11:00 to the waterfall uh with the defendant uh the clarity purposes you're referring to Karen Reed is that correct yes and uh do you see Miss Reed in the courtroom today yes I do could you just identify as to where she's seated or an article of clothing she's sure she's a female um at the table in front of me with a um black top on long sleeve I just ask the record refle identification by yes now with regards to uh Miss Reed um had you met Miss Reed prior to that date of January 28th I believe I had met her one time a week prior and uh do you recall any specifics about that meeting or how it is that you came to meet her about a week PR I do and if you could explain to the jury what what those circumstances were sure um I met her at the hillside um I believe she was there with John a week prior and as far as your interaction with her on that particular evening any anything significant stand out to you no now when they came in uh and by day I'm sorry I mrce industry came into the waterfall um where did they go in relation to where you were sort of situated at the high top so I don't remember them actually walking in the front door I remember them being in my general area at some point um and they went towards the other side of the table where U my sister-in-law Jen and my brother-in-law Matt was were standing and at some point uh did either or both of them make their way down towards your side of the table your side of the table excuse me and what have any interaction did you have yes I remember having an interaction or more than one interaction with John came over to say hello and um we had some conversation um not for too long but yes do you remember anything specific about that conversation or anything to stand out to you no I think we were talking mostly about work I think he um let me know that the sergeant I guess that worked in his unit was was leaving uh or or left or was or transferred and you know he was jokingly saying that I should try to get a job over it where he works and as far as the defendant Miss Reed uh what if any conversation or interaction did you have with I don't remember having any interaction with her whatsoever now as far as the when Mr o'e came over uh what if anything did You observe as far as what he was wearing clothing anything like that I don't really remember what he was wearing for clothing I believe he had a baseball hat on um other than that I I can't remember his clothing and specifically do you recall anything as far as like a winter jacket or a big coat or anything like that I can't say I wasn't I wasn't really paying attention to what he was wearing I I don't know and as far as just his General features as far as what you could observe what if any sort of injuries or or anything did You observe on his person at that time I observed uh no injuries at that time and um over the course of the evening you had a couple of interactions with Mr o'keef is that correct yeah I believe talked a few times um kind of hung out and stood next to each other for a while like you normally would do at at a bar restaurant and is the band playing while this is going on is that correct Yes the band was there um you know I believe they took a break here and there but they were they were there for the night now Mr Al how would you describe sort of the the general mood or or demeanor of of the group while you were at the waterfall that uh in one word it would be fun um um everybody was in a great mood um people were getting along it was friends and family and it was just seemed like a great night and uh do you recall about what time things started to wind down or things started to sort of end for the evening I believe the band stopped playing probably you know close to 12 and um things started winding down you know a little before 12 and if you know uh from the group that you just described um at the high top table that you were a part of um what was sort of the order of in which people left the establishments uh starting with the first so I believe the first leave was myself my wife Nicole my daughter Caitlyn and Brian Higgins left at that time as well and had anybody left uh from your group prior to when I'm sorry so the the bar starts to wind down around 12 correct yes prior to the bar winding down had anybody from your group left before that I didn't I didn't remember or notice that I'm not sure and so the first to sort of leave from your group when the bars winding down is yourself Mr Higgins your wife and your daughter yes and um when you exit the establishment where do you where do you go uh into the parket lot to my vehicle um let me take it back just for a moment back into the waterfall um during the course of the evening um what if any conversation was had by you or amongst the group that you observed as far as where to go next or what were you doing following the waterfall okay so there was some conversation um relative to people going to um my brother's subshop which is across the street and he was maybe going to make some pizzas for people if they hungry um so that was disgusted and uh did that end up happening no some people didn't want to go over there and for whatever reason it just didn't didn't happen and beyond that was there anything else that was discussed as far as where to go after the waterfall yes and what was that so it ended up being my son Brian's um 23rd birthday so at 12:00 he would be 23 so um there was some discussion about if anybody wanted to go by the house to um kind of say happy birthday to him and I know my wife Nicole mentioned it to Jen and Matt and it was said I believe in the in the group where we were standing and so was that sort of an open invitation that was extended to pretty much anybody that was around the high top tables yeah sure anybody that was there was welcome to come by if they wanted to and as far as you knew as far as awareness of who was coming over uh to your house at 34 fa um who from the group were you aware of coming over I don't really remember the responses I I don't think I knew for sure if anybody was going to come except um Brian Higgins said he would come by and he had left around the same time as you yes and had Brian Higgins been to your house before I believe he was at my house for a um High School graduation party and and high school graduation probably in Spring is that correct it would have been the summer prior to the to that time so my twins were graduating high school and we we had something at the house and it was spring summer of the of the of the Year prior and around that time so that would have been 2021 is that correct yes so around that time uh there was still sort of vestages or whatever of of the co pandemic is that correct Yes actually that was just getting kind of getting over I think and so where was uh this graduation party at your house was that inside your house or outside your house or something he was actually out back it was more of a cookout type thing and so as far as you can recall prior to January 28 2022 had Mr Higgins been physically sort of inside your house for any anything beyond using the B uh besides that that graduation party he I don't believe he had ever been at my house I'm sure he walked into the house you know to use the bathroom or something that day but I didn't really notice you know whether he went in there or not and uh youi with the course permission there's just a couple of very short clips that I'd like to uh publish with this witness in reference to what's been marked as exhibit from the waterfall okay and Miss Gilman with reference to uh channels three if I can have fourth video down and this G if I could ask you to uh fast forward to uh 18 minutes and 50 seconds now Mr Albert directing your attention up to the screen uh to your left uh to your right here U do you recognize what's up on the screen yes and what do you recogniz that to be uh the the waterfall and uh this is uh at least according to the time stamp about 11:57 p.m. on the 28th is that correct yes and what's up there is that to best your recollection a fair and accurate portrayal of what the inside of the waterfall look like uh absent sort of the quality of the video yes and uh sir I believe there should be a laser pointer on the desk before you if you just press that button to point of the screen what I'm going to ask you to do is uh if you could draw the jury's attention to uh who if anyone uh within this sort of still frame of the video that you recognize hey pen with you you know with the time band across the top there I can't really I can see some some people around the table that we were standing um which would be you know this table area here um tough for me to say from here who everybody is I believe I believe that's Brian Higgins there but I'm not 100% M Gilman if you could uh play this uh and what I'm going to ask you ultimately plays up to the 19 minute and 58 seconds [Music] let go in a few clear positiv now Mr Albert from What You observe up there as far as the door that you came in and came out of uh on that evening do you see generally where that door is yes and if you could direct the jury's attention to where on the video screen it is door is this way and from just prior to in this video when now stopped at the 11 uh 57 uh 52nd Mark um you see a group sort of making their way towards that front door is that correct yes and from this Vantage Point are you able to recognize any of people in that group that made their way towards yes I believe I saw uh my wife I daughter here maybe and then I think I'm over here but again it's a little grainy and I can't I can't really see grade from here and I see Bri I saw Brian Higgins but I don't know where if he's in here somewhere thank you m Gman if you could just press play again for about 30 some OD seconds for thank you Miss Gilman you could take that down and then miss Gilman if I could ask for um one other video from channel one the second one now if I could ask you to uh fast forward that to about 5 minutes and 10 seconds and ultimately I'm going to ask you to play from 5 minutes and 10 seconds to 5 minutes and 50 seconds if you could press play now thank you generally speaking what was just played up on the screen Mr Al did you recognize what that is yeah it looks like the exit of the of the waterfall and we kind of walking out the same group that was just walking to the front door now walking out the front door and then barking on yes and I believe there was somebody else there I don't know if it was somebody from the band or looks like a different person out front there thank you sir this come and you can uh take that now Mr Alber when you get to the parking lot you get in the vehicle and you drive to your house is that right yes okay and specifically you're the one driving is that correct yes and who is in your car with you on the drive back to your house I'm my wife from the Cole and my daughter Caitlyn and about how far drive is it from the waterfall to your house I would say five five minutes and uh the weather as far as when you walk out get in the car and then start driving what if anything had changed about the weather from the time you came into the waterfall to the time you came out yeah so when had started snowing a little bit more heavily um you can kind of see that on that second video so um the ground was beginning to be you know coated I looked like So Co on the ground but could you as you were driving could you still sort of see the blacktop of of the roadway I believe so yes now you get to your house and uh what if anything happen sort of as you're you're coming into into your driveway yeah it looks like that it had looked like Brian had gotten there first Brian Higgins and he was backing out um so I could pull my car in and as far as the vehicle that uh that Mr Higgins was driving on that evening from the waterfall was that the same vehicle that he had driven with you back from New York no and uh which what kind of vehicle was the one that he was driving back from New York and what kind of vehicle was the one he was driving that night so the one back from New York he was driving uh U full-size uh pickup truck I'm not I'm not sure what moo model but it had a cab on the back and I believe it's I believe it's gray and then that night at the later in the night at the waterfall he had um a Jeep uh r a Jeep Wrangler vehicle that I believe believe is white but I'm not 100% uh so he had arrived in your house before you is that correct yes and you said it looked like he had done something to the driveway um he may have skimm yeah he had a plow on his truck and I I think he may have um uh skimmed the plowed the driveway and then pulled out and then we pulled in and uh as far as uh vehicles at your house um how around this time in January 22 between yourself your wife kids how many how many vehicles did you have I believe uh three and and what type of vehicles and and who's who was sort of the primary driver with regard to those vehic so I had a um we had we had a fort Explorer um a Cadillac s SUV it's a it's a smaller SUV that um my wife Nicole drives and uh the fort Edge that I already spoke of and I believe we had one more vehicle that one of my kids drove at that time and I'm just trying to remember um it might have been an escape maybe a Ford Escape um so all someone could have had that at College someone could have had that at school so I don't remember if it was there that night or not um all the all the vehicles were were essentially were like SUV type Vehicles yes we didn't we didn't own any any sedans or any any cars now as far as when you pull into the driveway um the house at at 34 bview has two-car garage yes and is the garage something that you or other me excuse me you or other members of your family would utilize as far as parking Vehicles no so fortunately um we didn't use the garage a lot because we kind of used it for storage and we we had a lot of stuff out there so um we very seldom used it and uh if you recall um as you're pulling into the driveway did you pull into the left side the right side or I believe I pulled in on the left side of the driveway and you mentioned that Mr Higgins had sort of scooped with the plow like in in the driveway and then parked on the street you recall where in relation to your house or your driveway you parked so no I I don't remember where Brian Higgins parked I remember him pulling out so I could pull in and then I I didn't really see where we parked and uh you then go into your house is that correct yes and are all of you and by all of you I mean yourself your wife your daughter and Mr Higgins all sort of coming in around the same time basically yes when you come into your house do you recall how many doors uh in the front of the house are there so we have two front doors um and one would be sort of by some steps is that correct there's actually steps on both doors but you know one of them is I guess considered the front door with a large set of steps and they would be sort of brick steps is that right yes that leads into a a Foye area of the house yes and the other door where does that lead so the other door opens up right into the uh we you know we call it the family room but right into the family room den area and did you recall specifically which door you utilized on that evening to go into the house I believe I went in the door on the right which goes into the den not really sure where what other doors people used and when you came into the house who if anyone was was present beyond the people that you would come in with so my son Brian was home um he had two friends I believe um Julie and Sarah and these were people that you had known as as friends of your son from pation I didn't know I didn't know Sarah I knew I had met Julie once or twice and as you were walking in um who if anyone else beyond your son and his two friends they said and my uh nephew Colin that'd be Colin Albert is that correct yes Chris and Julie's son Colin about how old was calling around I believe he was just about 18 uh 17 17 18 he was in high school so he still in high school at the time yes and when you walk in where was Colin in relation to your son and and the two girls that he was with um he was just kind of standing in the kitchen with um Brian and the um two girls they were at Brian and the two girls were at the kitchen table and Colin was just kind of standing there and from the time that you arrived home uh how long was Colin at your house no more than 5 minutes and uh where did he go uh he left he just said he was getting picked up we said he was getting picked up and a few minutes later he left your house yes I went and used the bathroom I came out and he was gone now um at some point subsequent uh to that uh who if anyone else uh arrived or or showed up at your house after calling left the house yes and nobody else arrived at the house uh your sister-in-law Jennifer mccab Matthew mccab at some point did they come by yes I thought you were referring to after everybody after they showed up um so when my my question is do you know whether or not when Jennifer mccab and Matthew mccab arrived at your house was Colin still there I don't know if they if he was still there or not I believe he left before they came but um I'm not 100% so you come home and you go to use the restroom is that correct yes and when you go to use the restroom Colin's there correct yes and the maves are not they are not when you come back from the restroom Colin's not there yes Colin was gone and the maves are there no they I don't believe they had arrived yet okay so they arrive sometime after calling at left yes okay and uh over the course of that evening uh of the 28 into the early morning of the 29th uh did anybody else uh come into your house or did anybody else come into your house at any point no now in addition to um yourself your wife and uh your son uh did you have any pets at that time yeah yes we did okay and what what kind of pets did you have we had a dog and uh what kind of dog was that so it was a German sheeper mix and um what was the name of the dog Chloe and how long had you and your family had the dog we had Chloe for approximately at that time maybe six or seven years you recall how you got the dog or where you got the dog from uh the dog was um from a shelter in Dallas Texas actually so essentially a rescue dog is that correct yes rescue dog and when you got home after you uh went to the bathroom uh what if anything did you do with reference to to the dog the clo um at some point I went upstairs to uh grab the dog and let her out back to use the bathroom and uh so when you would take the dog out or when anybody would take the dog out to use the bathroom um how would that be accomplished and what I'm asking is with the dog be on a leash or would it be let out in the yard or no so the so the backyard's fenced in so I would open up the back door and she can go out use the bathroom and come back inside so the entirety of your backyard that's that's a fenced in backyard is that correct yes and beyond that fence as far as you're butting what what sort of a butts the back of your problem so um Behind The Back Fence there's a um a railroad track um I I believe it's a commuter rail that's behind the fence um and is there any sort of opening or way to open uh the back of that fence to get in sort of a any wooded area between your house and the tracks yes there's a uh gate back there yeah and uh thegate as far as when you let the dog out in the back that night um did you stay with the dog while the dog was outside I stayed at the doorway um and the dog went to the bathroom and then ran right back in that's so about how long was the dog outside she was out back for maybe 2 or 3 minutes went outside went to the bathroom came back in yes and when the dog came back inside the house where did the dog go from so the dog kind of walked around in the kitchen um for a few minutes and then I took her upstairs and when you took her upstairs where upstairs did you take so um the dog liked to sleep in our room my my mine and my wife's room so um a lot of times she would go up there in her own sometimes I would walk her up and I walked her up to our bedroom and at any point in time for the remainder of of that evening or the early morning did the dog go outside at all no and you mentioned that there are train tracks that run sort of close to property is that correct yes and is that just the commuter rail or does the seller go by or anything else I believe there is a um in addition to the commuter rail there's other trains that use that track yes and how often uh sort of on a daily basis do do trains go by uh your house on February so it depends I guess schedule wise if it's the middle of the week or if it's the weekend but you know on any given day they can go byy five or or six times you know morning you know more towards the rush hour times morning at night um and then sometimes at night and sometimes during the day so really all all day and night and when the trains go by about how how loud is that as far as from from your house so they it's loud although having lived there for a period of time I feel like at least I'm kind of immune to the sound I don't really hear it as much anymore so something essentially based on how long you've lived there you you really don't even hear it anymore not really no now you let the dog out to bring the dog back upstairs and then where did you go from there so after I brought the dog up I just came back down and and um hung out with everybody else and where within your house was was everybody else sort of situ so everybody was in the kitchen and then we have a connecting dining room but it's opened it's only you know a difference of 5et um and then we have the family room Den that's adjacent to the to the kitchen but they're all within they're all close proximity so the kitchen and the dining room are sort of sort of the same room is that correct yes and as far as the what if anything is between uh the kitchen and dining room and the uh the living room that you were talking about so there's no there's a wall but there's a there's a doorway so there's there's really no barrier to go from the kitchen dining room into the family room so somebody's standing in the family room and somebody's standing in the kitchen dining area they can sort of see each other yes now um in the kitchen area where everybody was or in the kitchen dining room area do you recall sort of where people were and what they were doing around that time yeah I think people were just just um sitting around um you know having drinks someone had a speaker and they were listening to music and just talking in hanging out and as far as the sort of group and and sort of the overall food or Dem meanor of the group back at the house how would you describe that uh Pleasant fun everybody was having a good time um you know we were wishing Brian a happy birthday and and everything was going great and at any point in time uh while this was all going on did you other than your situation with the dog um was there any point in time where you were not with the group in the kitchen dining area no I would I was there basically for the whole night except I think at one point I may have shown Brian Higgins some um photos that were in my son's room that were upstairs and what what kind of photos we talk so um one of my one of the my son jack who's one of the twins uh was in the in the Marines or is in the Marines and um we had put some plaques and some stuff in in his room upstairs and um Brian Higgins was PRI military as as am I and um I thought he would want to see the photos so I had him had him look at them and that period of time that you were outside of sort of the kitchen dining room area looking at the photos with Mr Higgins about how long a period of time were you talking very very quickly you know 2 minutes maybe three minutes now at some Point um over the course of that that morning things uh started to sort of wind down at your home is that fair to say yes and about what time was that that people started to things started to wind down people started to leave I think Brian left at around 1:30 um I believe he was the the first to leave um and then others left after that when you say others left after that after Mr Higgins left your house where where did you go so after Brian left um I had gone upstairs and um hung out and watch TV up up up in my bedroom you had a long day that day is that fair to say yes I had the funeral in New York that morning we had the long drive back and um we had been out and now we're hanging out at my house and it had been a long day yes and so at any point in time um after you went upstairs after Mr Higgins left did you come back downstairs at all yes I think I popped back down at one point just to see kind of how long people were going to be there um and then went back up when you popped back down how many people were were still there I think jenon Matt was still there um and the two um Brian's two friends were still there and my daughter Kaitlin now as far as um Beyond Mr Higgins when he left uh was there any other occasion that you can recall where somebody uh from your house went outside and then came back yes and who was that so while we was hanging out I believe Julie the girl Julie nagle's brother came to the house um I never saw him but I could hear them saying that he was out front and I think Julie Nagel had walked outside to talk to him and uh at some point after she walked outside she came back inside is that correct yes and about how long a period of time if you know was she outside I didn't really I didn't really pay attention to how long it was I don't think it was was that long and as far as the outside of your house after you had led Chloe out and back in what if any observations did you make outside of your house did you look out did you see anything outside of the house um just that we have a Windows in the back of the uh kitchen area you could just see that it was it was snowing is that sort of like a bay window in the kitchen yes it's a um a large bay window in the in the kitchen when you look out the bay window in the kitchen what part of your property does that face so it's the um it's the backyard you can see the backyard um the bulkhead is right under that bay window um and you know you pretty much have a view of the um whole backyard if it's in the daytime but it was obviously a little dark so can you see the front of the house at any any part the front of the house when you're looking out the bay window No so at any point in time over the course of the evening did you look out front to see anything out out in front of your house no now at any point in time over the course of the evening did you hear anything uh from from front of the house the back of the house anywhere around the house that Drew your attention outside no now at any point in time during the evening uh did you know or did you become aware of either John o'keef or the defendant Karen Reed coming over to your house no and at no point in time over the course of of that evening or the early morning there did John o' Kei or Karen Reed physically come into your house John o'keef and Karen Reed never entered my house and so you go up to bed uh and the group is still sort of downstairs is that correct yes and uh at some point um your wife Nicole you share a bedroom with did she come upstairs yeah yes and do you know about what time that was it was probably 2ish not exactly sure but around 2 or 2:00 and um the doors to your house is as far as the the front doors and the back doors is that what is sort of the situation with regard to to locking the doors before everybody goes to bed you can you rephrase that sure with um when you lived at 34 Fairview Road there were a number of doors to the house including two doors in the front correct yes okay and how was that um let me ask you this would it be unusual for the front doors of your house to remain unlocked overnight no is that something that that happened on occasion where people were supposed to lock the doors but didn't lock the doors yes from time to time um the doors people would just forget to lock them or we just didn't lock them and um so your wife comes up to your bedroom about 2 uh 2: a.m. or so um as far as you knew was everybody else had left the house at that point yes and you're up for uh a period of time with your wife is that correct yes and over the course of that time so sort of following uh 2:00 in the morning uh do you recall any sort of phone call or phone conversation with Mr Higgins or any anybody else no and at some point you fall asleep do you recall about when that was I don't um but it was obviously after two because that's when she came upstairs we watch TV and kind of hung out together for a while um and then went to sleep and the dog Chloe was she up in the room where you had brought her up before yes she was there overnight is that correct yes now turning your attention to later on that morning or or you know beginning of that morning daytime morning uh of January 29th um obviously at some point you wake up correct yes and what is it that wakes you up on that morning I I was awoken that morning to my sister-in-law Jen had burst into my room and do you know about what time that was it was between it was early in the morning between 6:00 and 6:30 I would say and fair to say that's not a a normal occurrence no and when she bursts into uh your room um can you describe her demeanor or sort of how she appeared when she first came in she was very upset almost almost hysterical and what if anything that she say when she came into the room she said um something to the effect um John is dead objection next question please Su Foundation did you know who she was referring to when she initially comes into your I initially did not and um at some point uh during the course of that conversation does Miss McCay make reference to going downstairs yes and prior to that not the the content of the conversation but as far as the length of the conversation um about how long was that length of of the conversation that occurred in your bedroom between yourself Miss mccab and your wife probably a a minute and the demeanor that you described as as far as Miss MCC was concerned is almost hysterical was that continuous throughout that initial conversation yes she was very upset and um if anyone that she indicate was was downstairs or why you go downstairs she said that the police there I'm going to allow we with that Foundation goad she said that the police were downstairs and so you went downstairs to talk to the police yes and um when you go downstairs uh what do you see when you get to sort of the the bottom of the stairs I saw a Canton police officer downstairs so inside your house at that point yes and the door to your house was it still open open or shot or something I don't remember and the Canton police officer that's inside your home uh did you recognize him yes and who did you recognize him uh last name uh lank so officer lank was he someone that you were familiar with I knew I knew who he was yes U did you socialize or you friends or anything like that I didn't socialize with him I knew him to be a Canon police officer um I had met him you know multiple times and I knew him to um to know my brother Chris and so knew him essentially what I'm asking knew him in a professional capacity personal capacity or a little bit of a um I would say more of a professional capacity and I knew I knew of him but did not uh hang out with him socially and initially when you first uh see officer Lan he by himself or who if your other officers are with I believe initially he was he was by himself then another officer joined yourself and an officer L at some point yes I believe another officer came into the house you know who that officer is I don't I don't and um as far as them coming into your house they were welcome in your house you didn't say get out or close the door or anything like that no of course they would welcome in my house and um where did you go with the officer sort of in your house where did you spoke with the officer I'm presuming yes we spoke in the um kitchen area and when you're speaking with the officer in the kitchen area um who who is there so my wife Nicole uh her sister Jen and I believe Jen's husband Matt um arrived almost the same time that I came downstairs maybe a minute after and uh how long a period of time was this conversation that occurred in the kitchen of your house I don't remember the the exact time um I I wouldn't want to guess I I don't remember he 10 15 20 minutes maybe initially and when you say initially was there a subsequent conversation that that occurred after that uh yes uh the officers Officer link returned to the um uh sometime after that and when he returned sometime after that was he again was he alone or was there another off I believe that time he was with the lieutenant um uh gallaga perhaps and were you familiar with Lieutenant Gallagher prior to that one I knew I knew um who uh Lieutenant Gallagher was on a professional level um I had not hung out with him on a on a social level and and again they were welcomed into your home and you spoke with them is that correct yes the second time they were there they were uh invited back to the house via a phone call and uh that second conversation within your house where did that um same area family room kitchen area and if you know about how long a period of of conversation was that that second come back to the house um that may have been longer maybe maybe a half hour now going back to sort of that initial conversation um as far as so it's it's yourself it's Mr and Mrs mcab your wife and then the police is that correct uh myself my wife Nicole my sister-in-law Jen her husband mat had arrived and the police yes and um in between that first speaking with the police and the second time that the police came back to your house uh who if anyone did you call or notify in regard to the situation that was going on in f i called um Brian Higgins why did you call Brian because I think it was important for him to know what was going on and that um what had happened and as far as you knew with reference to Mr o'keef and and Miss Reed what if any Rel relationship friendship anything were you aware of between Mr Higgins and either Mr O or M um I was not aware um too much about a relationship with Brian and either person um Brian had mentioned maybe even that night that he was friendly in new John um I knew of no relationship between um Brian and the defendant and uh following your conversation with Mr Higgins uh if anyone else came over your house so um Brian Higgins eventually came over to my house um and my sister-in-law Julie also arrived at my house and do you know why your sister-in-law Julie came by your house up yes and why was that so um she has a a routine that when it's someone's birthday she likes to come by and bring like coffee and donuts so it was Brian's birthday that night so my sister-in-law Julie was coming by to drop off some uh Donuts and and coffee I think and where was Julie when you first uh saw her that morning um she was out out front in the driveway and what if anything did you ask to do when you saw her in the driveway uh I asked her to come inside and when she came inside is that when you informed her of what had happened yes I don't know if it was um necessarily me that informed her but people that were there were explaining to her what happened it was a very very chaotic un I believe it will be a chaotic morning and as far as when that was described uh to your sister-in-law Julie how would you describe sort of her demeanor or her reaction to to to the news regarding this shock that's how I would describe everybody's reaction that morning was utter shock and she was upset and looked very very in shock and so the second time that the the Canon police officers come back to your home um who was there at that point I know I was there for sure my wife Nicole um Jen her husband Matt um Brian Higgins may have been there at that time um and I'm not sure about Julie Julie at one point left the house and I think she came back later in the morning but so I'm not sure if she was there and at some point when your sister-in-law Julie came back to your house was anyone came back to who if anyone came to your house with us um her husband my brother Chris who's her husband was this before or after the second time that the police had been in your house I believe they came back after the second time but I'm not I'm not 100% sure the first time that Julie came with the coffee the police were not there now when you for uh first ort to get up you come downstairs and and the police are they're basically in your doorway is that correct yes could you see outside as far as what was going on outside at that time um not from downstairs but I had looked out the window after Jen had come up into my room and explained what had happened and before I went downstairs when you looked out your window from your bedroom um what did you see I could see um at least one police vehicle I could see that there was something going on out front and um that was about it and I just went straight downstairs at that time that you looked out your window did you see I an ambulance or a fire truck out there I don't remember if I saw a ambulance there were emergency vehicles out there but I can't remember exactly which types and at any point in time at that time or subsequent throughout course of De um did you go out to that area of your yard where you saw the Cruisers and the um the sort of lights no and and why um I didn't see that there was a reason to to go out to that to that area the police had already been in my house they had already talked to us about what was going on um it was a snowstorm at that point um they were trying to conduct an investigation and I didn't want to interfere with it or have anything to do with it now as far as what you're learning sort of when Jennifer McCay first comes sort of verging in um into your bedroom at 6:00 to 6:30 in the morning um at any point around there were you made aware of of where John O'Keefe was at that point yes and and what were you made aware of I was made aware that he was taken to the um hospital so by the time that you're awoken uh by Mrs McKay Don O'Keefe is to your knowledge not outside uh to my knowledge I believed he was on the way to the hospital now later on um in the course of that day at some point did you uh have occasion to speak with some troopers from the state police yes and uh if you recall uh who is it that you spoke with so I spoke with Trooper um last name Proctor and then another trooper and I'm don't know the last name the first name Yuri would it be Sergeant Bean uh it could be okay and had you met either of those Troopers prior to that dat um I had never met Trooper Proctor I had met Trooper um I forget what is the last name you met Yuri um I had met him I had met him once or twice before was that in a professional capacity yes and where did you speak with them on that day um at my sister-in-law Jen's house and uh if you recall about what time of day was it that uh that you spoke with them it was late morning early afternoon uh the day of of the incident so I don't know the exact I don't know the exact time um before noon I think and uh why was it uh that later on that day that you were over your sister-in-law Jenner from the case well my sister-in-law Jen and her husband Matt were leaving my house my sister-in-law was distraught um I wanted to be comforting to them and be there for them if they needed anything and I drove to their house and this is and speaking of your sister-in-law Jennifer this is someone you've known since she was how old six six seven years old she she's like a a little sister to me and uh at the point that you're going over to the house did you know that there were going to be troopers from the state police over at the house yes and um to say they asked to talk to you is that correct uh yes and do you know who with anyone else they spoke to at your sister-in-law's house that day I believe they spoke with um Jen my sister-in-law Jen and then her husband Matt and then myself and so was that done sort of in a group setting or was it separate or something else uh separate and so they spoke to you in one area of the house while Jennifer and Matthew MC were in another area the house and vice versa for yes I I spoke with them um at the dining room table um and they Jen and Matt were not present I believe they may have been upstairs or somewhere else in the house and if you know where were you when when the troopers were talking to either Jennifer mccave or Matthew so I was upstairs when they were being spoken to I may have one moment yes [Applause] may I approach on [Music] yes I'm going to show you a series of uh eight photographs R you the look sure [Music] sir what I just presented you what been previously marked as exhibits 58 through 65 in general speaking do you recognize what's depicted in those photographs yes and what are you recognizing so the photos appear to be the uh front um yard in front of my old house at 34 fav Road and from those photographs they appear to be a fair and accurate portrayal of of what your house and your yard looked like around that time is that correct yes U you H with the course commission I would ask to publish those for the jury discuss with the witness briefly hey you can put them up Miss Gilman I'm Miss Gilman if you could start with exhibit 58 Albert sir there should be on the desk in front of you a a laser pointer actually we already talked I have that yes um so what's up on the screen currently uh do you recognize uh is that what's depicted in exhibit 58 um see I got have them out of order here just give me one sec so yes this looks like um the photo exhibits 58 that you handed me and uh this is a photograph of your house or if I'm standing on the street to the left side of the property correct yes and on this um sort of left side of your proper property um let me ask you this first as far as between the roadway of Fairview Road and your front lawn is there any anything there as far as sidewalk or anything like that no there's no sidewalk so the um the grass area goes right to the curb and then there's the street and the curve that's in between the grass and and the roadway um is that like a straight curve a straight edge curve Granite curving or like rounded curving how would you describe that um I would just describe it as a um regular regular curving um it's not Granite it's the it's the color is black so it seems like a tire curving and in this area uh of the left side of your property uh how well what if anything of of node is sort of in that area of the property so in that area the property um first of all that's basically the property line from the neighbor's house if you staring at my house from the front the neighbor to the left that's the um property line area but it's there's a fire hydrant there um there is a uh flag pole with the American flag and the Marine cor flag and there is a um I mean we call it like an electrical box uh but I'm not sure what the purpose of it is and so through all the years that you've lived there either as a child or as an adult you really don't know what that electrical box does or what it yes I don't know if it's operable um sometimes the door is open if it's windy the door of the Box blows open and sometimes it's closed and you know we don't really have much to do with it and the general area where when you looked out the window in your bedroom on the morning of the 29th uh as far as where you saw the the police vehicles or the Cruisers be uh do you see that in this Photograph yes that's the same general area the same general area that you were describing with the fire hyd the FL hole things like yes u m Gman if I could have the next exhibit 59 and again sir what's up on the screen is that what you have before you uh what was it 59 yes and from this Photograph sir this is again a picture of your residents around the time of January 29th correct yes um fair to say this is taken after some the snow has has sort of melted from the storm before you can tell yes it appears that there's there's less snow in the front there so less no than what you saw when you looked out your window or at some later point on the 29th yes and from this Photograph if you could just direct the jury's attention to the driveway and the garages and sort of where where is that located on so my driveway is or was this area right here um and that's uh the garage doors and from within this Photograph as well you mentioned that there were sort of two doors to the front of your house one that leads into a Foye area and the other leads uh into a living room of some kind if you could direct the jury's attention to where each of those doors would be on the house if you can see sure so the the door right here um is consider we consider it the front door and that goes into a 4year area and and then not from this photo you can't really see it but there's a door in this I guess Breezeway area and that opens up into the family room and one last uh thing from this Photograph sir if the window uh that you were looking out see that window when this Photograph was long can you draw the juror's attention to yes I believe it would be this one right here yeah in the corner thank you sir M Gman if I could have the next exhibit number 60 you say 60 60 and so what's up on the screen you recognize that as as what you have before you as exhibit 60 yes and uh from this Photograph um as far as the roadway and the sort of width of the road from the curve to the double yell line there is that generally what it was on January 29th as that's what the roadway looked like the morning of the 29th well the morning of the 29th it was snow correct right so the roadway I I believe would have had some snow on it um so what I'm asking is when you came home that evening or early morning on the 29th is that essentially what the roadway looked like absent whatever the snow was covering yes uh the next photographing skill and again now looking at what is exhibit 61 is that correct sir one second yes this is essentially a closer up image of the area the fire Hydra and electrical box and the the flag hole that you were talking about before yes and uh if I can have the next photograph and again what's up on the screen this would be and I'm sorry I lost my train thought is this 6 62 uh it appears to be yes 62 so you were mentioning earlier in your testimony that the area where you saw the police cruisers when you looked out your window in the morning of the 29th was near sort of where your property ABS the neighboring property correct yes um and you happen to know what number that next door neighbor's house is up or down from 34 I I honestly don't I I don't know what number that is and do you see sort of the the property line in between your house and the next door neighbor's house yes I believe that row of um that row of trees is is the property line so the row of evergreen trees there is sort of where it delineates between your property and the next door neighbor yes they appear to be in line from almost the street to the to the white fence and that white fence sort of in the back right of that photograph is that the fence that you were talking about before that encloses your backyard yes and uh the next photographing schema number 63 again this is just another photograph of sort of that area of your yard is that correct uh one second sorry yes now with reference to this area of the the yard at your house when you were living there at 34 fairv road is that an area of the yard that would be of particular use or did you go in that area of the yard all that much no we didn't really um use that that area uh too often there's um there's a large wood chip bed you can't see it because of the snow but it kind of covers that area um so we don't really go over there that often and now so with reference to this area of the yard was there any sort of overhead like ambient lighting street lights anything like that in that area no so that's a very dark part of the odard um there's no street light there at all and the next photograph M Gman Mr Al I believe this would be number 64 is that correct yes and with reference to this can you just describe to the jury what what are we looking at in this particular photograph exhibit 64 so that's the um the front right door I guess you could say to the to the house um and again you can't see the door but it's inside that Breezeway area to the left and if you could just using Blazer Point direct what you're talking about so the door would be right in here and from the driveway leading up to that front door area you were talking about with the with the um the foury year once you get in uh what if anything is sort of leading you up to to the step set to the other door to the other door front um there's a there's a um brick walkway so brick walkway leading up to Brick steps into the fouryear area of your house yes and the last in this set m g uh Mr Albert this would be number 65 you recognize what's depicted in this Photograph sir yes and what do you recognize it to be so that's the uh picture of the of the ground in front of the fire hydrant which is to the left front of my yach you can take that down thank you very much now Mr Albert with the days that that sort of followed uh from January 29 um as far as um your home was concerned was what if any sort of police presence uh Did You observe or notice uh sort of in that area in the front yard uh of your home so over the course of the next couple days there were um emergency vehicles and police Personnel um that day and days following in in front of the house so later on in the afternoon of the 29th and continuing on for days after is that correct yes and what if anything uh Did You observe as far as the weather was concerned between the date of the 29th and and the days that the police presence was outside of your house I believe it it rained um a few times during that time and as far as the snow that had been piled up on your front lawn what if anything was occurring with the snow as the days went on following the 20 um I believe so some of the snow was shoveled out I believe during the crime scene and then um some of the snow was just dissipating due to the fact that it was melting and then it had rained a bunch of days now sir if I could turn your attention to um your house and obviously at some point you moved uh from the house on Fairview and Canton to norw correct yes and when was that uh sort of first discussed uh between you and your wife as far as selling the house that was discussed in October November of it would have been 2021 and what was it that sort of precipitated that discussion as far as selling your house um around that time and it was it was postco the the housing market seemed really good um and my brother uh Chris had sold his house was in the process and ultimately sold his house around that time um he got a great deal on it I had known some other people that had sold around that time and um it was a little early for us because um our children weren't all necessarily gone yet but it was close and we thought we could get a good deal for the house so that's when we started exploring it and who if anyone did your your brother Christopher put you in in touch with so he put me in touch with a realtor that um ultimately sold his house and at some point um at some point you sold the house I did and when was that so we didn't end up selling until Fe um April of 2023 and as far as uh prior to selling a house what if any um like that did the sale of your house have anything to do with what occurred there on January 29th 2022 absolutely [Music] not I have just one moment yes nothing further for this witness joh okay whenever you're ready Mr Jackson thank you Mr Albert this is not uh this process is not the first time you've t testified in the court of law is it no in fact you were a police officer for either just under or just over 30 years is that right yes during that time how many times would you say that you have testified in a court of law in any capacity I would say 100 perhaps so you consider yourself to be an experienced witness in what aspect in in as far as police as far as being a witness as a police officer you've experienced testifying in a courtroom yes okay so you understand the oath yes you understand the gravity of perjury yes when was the last time you spoke to Mr La before Friday when you began testifying before Friday the last time I spoke to Mr L was I believe on a conference call around the time of my grand Jerry testimony which would have been 2022 yes uh April of 2022 yes you've not spoken with Mr L uh since that time I don't remember speaking with Mr L since that time no what about anybody else from the District Attorney's Office no have you gone over the facts uh or what you believe to be the facts of your testimony with anybody before you testified on Friday not including any lawyer that you may have no uh did you discuss any questions that you may be ask on direct examination or questions that you may be posed on Cross examination with any member of the district district attorney's office no were you told about any exhibits or documents that you might be shown just in the in the prep I believe I was shown um a video of the of the waterfall bar and that was back in April of 2022 no that was for the prep for this for this trial with whom did you prep for this I Mr L I'm confused I thought you said said you had not spoken with Mr L since April of 2022 except for the prep for this trial I had not okay that was my question Mr Albert okay I misunderstood your question I apologize did you prep for this trial with Mr low yes when um approximately a few weeks ago okay Mr Albert about 45 seconds ago I asked you have you spoken Mr L before your testimony in this process this proceeding and your answer was no I have not did you not understand my question I did not what was confusing about it I was expecting you to ask if I had prepped with Mr L I didn't hear prep with Mr L so I didn't know what you were referring to so when I said spoke with Mr L since I didn't say prep with Mr L your answer was no I didn't speak with him I just prepped with him yes what's the difference between speaking and prepping no there is no difference I just misunderstood your question that's all tell me about that prep with Mr L sure I prepped with Mr L about the this trial with uh Mr L my attorney where did that preparation take place uh the preparation took place um I believe I'm trying to remember exactly where it was I actually don't recall where where it was could it have been at the DA's office yes but it wasn't it wasn't at the um DA's office no I believe it was somewhere else but I can't remember if it was here or the DA's office okay I'm not sure I also asked you a couple minutes ago did you review any documents or any evidence from preparation for your testimony and to that question you also answered no wa I said I reviewed a video well now you're saying you reviewed a video but when I asked you did you preper did you see any evidence or documents anything in preparation for your testimony you said no correct no I believe I said I Sorry video did you understand did you misunderstand my question when I asked it the first time as well no okay I'm going to try to be clearer with my questions okay let me try it again what if anything have you reviewed in anticipation of your testimony in this trial so I reviewed a video of the waterfall anything else um I reviewed my transcript from the grand Jerry so you have reviewed your prior Tes my transcript of the and Jer yes which is prior Tes correct yes when did you do that I did that during uh during the prep what part of the waterfall video did Mr L show you it was a small snippet of the video and I just one of the 20 seconds of of video during that night which part there's a lot of video there which part if you can tell us which part did you review with Mr L it just showed the waterfall it showed patrons it showed myself and the other people I was with what were you doing in that 20 second snippet of that video I believe in one in one portion of it I was uh fooling around with Brian Higgins fooling around yes what was that mean means we were just fooling around that's it fooling around like I don't play arm wrestling no I don't think we were arm wrestling I think we were just pushing each other fooling around oh so play fighting I don't think I would call it play fighting no I was just you remember seeing the part of the video where you took a fighting stance sort of like this I actually don't remember that partt no no you remember a part of the video where Brian Higgins took a fighting stance sort of like this maybe yes do you approach one another I don't think I saw that whole video no practicing fighting techniques I I wouldn't call up that now you can have that what I'm sorry what was your answer to that Mr Albert no so what you reviewed with Mr L was a portion of the video where you and Mr Higgins Were Somehow fooling around and well how would you describe it if it's not fighting techniques how would you describe it just joking being silly just fooling around okay doing what physically doing if you were phrase physically I mean you can joke with words right you do just joking with words like a standup comedian or were you doing something physically no I think we were pushing each other fooling around joking okay you ever show him how to throw a punch did I what did you throw him did you show him how you would throw a punch I don't remember that no did you squat down show them how you want to get low when you're either aggressive or defending an aggression I don't remember that exact pose now did he walk over to you and grab you and act like he was going to drive a knee into your stomach I'm not sure at some point did you flip him around grab him in a in a wrestling hold I may have I just don't remember exactly do these things sound familiar when you reviewed as to your review of the video that you saw with Mr L no I didn't see all those on the video at Mr L did you discuss with Mr L the questions that you might be asked by him on direct examination did he go through here are the topics of conversation that we're going to have no not like that did he go over with you what he believed the topics of conversation might be on cross-examination by either myself or Mr yti I believe so yes what did he tell you you might be asked I don't remember exactly what he what he told me he said we could be asked about um the night at the waterfall we could be asked asked about back at the house uh things like that anything else not that I can remember is there anything given your conversation with Mr L is there anything that you want to change about the testimony that you previously gave under oath in April of 2022 no the fact that You' now reviewed that testimony no you stick by that testimony yes okay have you watched any of these proceedings on on any platform before your testimony no you never tuned in to anything that's live streaming any of the media coverage no you're aware that your wife testified before you yes did you just I don't want to know what the words were did you discuss her testimony with her before you testified no so she came home after testifying in this trial and you two never brought it up no I just asked how she was doing and that was it Mr Albert are you close friends with Brian Higgins I wouldn't describe it as close friends no he's a fellow law enforcement officer correct yes works for the ATF he does the department of or the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms and explosives correct yes how long have you known Mr Higgins I think I first met Mr Higgins about 15 years ago how did you meet him it was a professional something at work um we may have worked together I think at the time he was a Cambridge arson Squad member and I think he came into the city of Boston to do something for work so you've known him for 15 years and you were with him on January 28th 2022 correct yes and he's the person that you were quote joking and fooling around us right yes he had a long road trip with Mr Higgins on January 28th 2022 didn't you is there what's the question you had a long road trip with Mr Higgins on January 28th 2022 correct we drove from New York to Boston yes it's a pretty good drive you'd say yes consider that a road trip yes how long I don't know if it was probably somewhere around 4 hours maybe once you got back from New York to back up to Boston Boston area uh the two of you stopped at a location correct yes what was the location the Hillside and what did you two do at the hillside um we went into the hillside had had a drink talked and I I think Brian may have ordered food so once you got back from that relatively long road trip that 4-Hour long trip 4H hour long road trip I apologize uh you stopped at a bar and started drinking correct yes do you have anything to eat at the hillside I did not but Brian did Brian Higgins did I left brii to Brian Higgins eating um during the course of that road trip or at the hillside did the two of you discuss Karen Reed my client no did her name ever come up no without telling me anything that he may have actually said did he mention Karen Reed or the topic of Karen Reed no never did he mention the fact that he had been texting and flirting with Karen Reed two weeks prior no so that subject according to you was never addressed or broached by Mr Higgins or you no during that entire day no after you arrived at the waterfall John O'Keefe arrived subsequent there too right yes how long after approximately 45 minutes maybe and Karen Reed was with him is that right yes Brian Higgins was standing right next to you when she came in along with John vke correct I'm not sure where people were standing when they arrived well you remember being you you saw a video correct not of I don't believe there's any I saw a video of them walking into waterfall now fair enough but you saw at least a clip according to you you saw a clip of that video of you at the waterfall correct yes you were situated at a high top table right yes your back is sort of to the camera is that right I'm not sure the of the camera angles the video that I saw I was at the high top table um but I'm not sure of all the camera angles of the of the waterfall Brian Higgins is the guy with the sweatshirt with the maybe a Harley gavon emblem on the back or something I'm not sure what he wore that that night I'm sure he had a sweatshirt on but I don't know what the emblem was okay he was standing right next to you in the video clip that you saw Yes okay in other words that was the video where he was standing right next to you and you two turn to each other and start this play fighting thing [Music] yes so it's if it's that time or sometime around there at the high top you were in proximity of Brian Higgins when Karen Reed and John o'keef came into the bar correct I just don't recall the timing of when they came into the all right Mr Albert did Mr Higgins say anything to you at that time about John O'Keefe arriving with Karen Reed at his side no did Mr Higgin say anything to you about being upset that Karen Reed had shown up with John o'keef no describe your relationship with John O'Keefe if you would so I didn't know John that well I had only met him a few times um but every time I met him it was cordial um Pleasant and um I would consider him to be a a coworker even though I I never really worked with him directly um he seemed like a nice guy I knew his whole story about the fact that he had taken his niece and nephew after a tragedy in the family and I had an unbelievable amount of respect for him doing that um but I can't say that we were good friends because I didn't really know him all that well you were far better friends with Brian Higgins than you were John o' ke that's fair to say yes on Friday you were asked whether or not knew my client Karen Reed correct this meeting couple days ago during your direct examination I believe so yes you were also asked the same series of questions at another grand jury not involving the Commonwealth you remember that in June of 2023 yes I want to be clear about these this other hearing um that was a non-commonwealth hearing in front of a grand jury correct yes all right uh Mr L and and his uh colleagues were not there is that right yes I was not there Mr Yanti was not there yes or miss miss little right okay um at that June 2023 and I'm going to talk about a couple of dates so I don't want to be confusing at that June 2023 non-commonwealth hearing you were asked some questions about whether or not you knew Karen Reed before January 28th 2022 I believe question I believe so yes and you testified before you testified you were sworn an oath yes same oath that you swore that uh in this trial correct yes swore to tell the truth the whole truth of nothing but the truth yes and you knew that you were testifying under penalty of perjury in that hearing as well correct yes and you testified at that non-commonwealth grand jury that you quote believe Karen was with John the0 came into Hillside a female that looked similar to Karen from the waterfall came in with him in that uh on that night and I assume that was her but I can't say for sure end quote that was your testimony before that grand uh that uh grand jury yes but you were also asked a similar question in April of 2022 by Mr L at his grandury you remember that no let's start at the beginning before you testified in the April 2022 Grand more than a year earlier and just three months after this incident you was sworn an oath correct yes the same oath that you took in June of 2023 right yes and the same oath you took on Friday yes isn't it true that you were asked the question whether or not you knew Karen Reed on January 28 8 2022 and you testified quote I've never met or seen her before in quote no I don't recall that didn't you indicate that you just testif I'm sorry that you reviewed your grand jury testimony and anticipation for this trial yes you would have read the whole thing yes and you don't recall making that statement no May appr yes and I'll see council at Side by when you leave that with the witness just please take a look at that sure M yes Mr Albert have you had an opportunity to review that I have thank you did that refresh your Recollections to what you said before the grand jury in April of 2020 2 yes but you you didn't read the whole you didn't read the whole quote though right the whole quote is the following question so the female you had never met before is that fair to say answer no I've never met her or seen her before period maybe once but I don't think I've ever had a conversation with her that was the entire quote correct that's the enti entire quote yes that's not what you read earlier but yes well what read earlier was I've never seen I'm sorry I've never met or seen her before those words came out of your mouth correct that's not my whole sentence no you said I've never met or seen her before and then you said maybe once but I've never had a conversation with her I don't think right that's yes that's my sentence okay so which is it Mr Albert what were you saying were you saying you met her and had a conversation with her or were you saying I've never met or seen her before which one of those two things was true I was saying that I met her maybe once actually what you said was I've never met her or seen her before your words not my words sir isn't that right no because in the next sentence I say I met her maybe once so you literally changed your testimony within your own testimony jaction no can you answer that Mr Albert I believe I qualified my first sentence with a second sentence so what changed between the first sentence where you indicated unequivocally I've never met or seen her before and the second sentence when you said maybe once I'm not sure what I was thinking at the time that I said that isn't it true Mr Albert not only had you met Miss Reed but you had spent several hours with Karen Reed and John O'Keefe six days before this incident isn't that true No in fact on January 22nd 2022 6 days before January 28th you socialized with Karen Reed at the hillside bar for several hours didn't you I was at the hillside bar the week prior yes it was a Saturday night correct yes you were at the bar yes there several other folks at the bar correct several people yes that included Chris Albert your brother yes guy named Tim Daly yes d a i l Y is that right I'm not sure how to spell his last name Julie Albert was there yes Jen mccab was there yes Matt mccab was there yes John o'keef was there yes he was and Karen Reed was there correct yes she was in fact apprach yes you to take a look at a photograph just look at that to yourself for a second tell me if you familiar familiarize yourself with it and then look up when you're ready yes may I approach Yes actually I don't need to Mr Albert you can stay there do you recognize the photograph that's uh before you yes how do you recognize it um well I recognize the people within the photograph and the background of the photograph looks like the hillside that appear to be a photograph that was taken on J uh January 22nd 2022 yes were at the hillside bar yes I published this okay is it already in evidence or not I'm sorry I so you put it in evidence first and then you publish it I have that marked as next in order yes and then the exhibit 67 thank you [Music] [Applause] permission to publish on it yes thank you you see that photograph uh it's the same photograph that you're looking at in front of you yes describe who the people are going from left to right sir Chris Albert myself John O'Keefe and Tim Daly and this was on January 22nd 2022 about 11:00 p.m. correct yes can I approach yes Mr Albert who took the photo I don't know Ken Reed took the photo didn't she I have no idea who took that photo here we took the photo you're literally staring right at her correct I I don't know who took the photo well who else do you think it could have been well there were a lot of people there you mentioned my sister two sister-in-laws a brother-in-law I'm not sure we can turn the lights back on please and take the photo down did you ever see this photo uh from Jen mccab no did you ever see it from Julie Albert no Chris Albert didn't take it he's in it right Tim didn't take it he's in it right you obviously didn't take it right and who's the guy on the far right Tim that was Tim who's the guy next to Tim John right so who do you think do you still need the photo up I'm sorry I thought you were done with it do do you remember remember yeah I I it was John yeah okay the cap Onre yes I don't need okay um so given the fact that you were never shown that you've never seen that photo before today correct I saw a photo um that was sent to me in Discovery or to my attorney that showed only I believe me and John in the picture I think it's the same photo only that's blown up to show everybody so given what you now know about that night who was there the fact that John is posing for a photo right next to you who do you think took the photo sir I have no idea who took the photo could it have been Karen Reed Jackson sustained let's move along from that in um you were interacting with Karen Reed and John O'Keefe throughout that evening correct I remember having conversation ations with John that evening I don't necessarily remember speaking to Karen that evening irrespective of whether or not you spoke to her you obviously saw her there yes you were there with with her for a couple of hours well I wasn't there with her for a few hours I was there with other people okay so without splitting work splitting hairs she was there correct yes John was there yes you were socializing with John yes she was right next to him sometimes perhaps not maybe all the times I was talking to him no so you were socializing not exclusively with her right certainly socializing with her 6 days before John O'Keefe ended up dead on your lawn correct we were there at the same time yes and yet when you were asked 3 months later do you know Karen Reed or how do you know Karen Reed did the actual question was so the female you've never met before is that fair to say that was Mr L's question and your immediate response was no I've never met her or seen her before correct that's what you said that's not my whole response no that's what you said immediately upon that question sir that's the beginning of my response yes that was the first sentence out of your mouth Yes you also testified at the subsequent GR in June of 2023 when I asked what was your impression of misre you said quote I honestly didn't really have one I didn't have any conversation with her I just kind of saw her from across the table I didn't really think of it either way correct I don't know what that question is referring to is that for the waterfall or is that for Hillside Hillside okay yes all right um so in June of 23 a a little over a year later your testimony significantly changed from no I've never SE met or seen her before to I really didn't have a conversation with her I saw her across the table I didn't really think of it either way correct no I think those are very similar testimonies when you were asked in the other proceeding and this is about the waterfall question did you talked to Karen Reed at the waterfall that night you answered unequivocally I did not is that right yes and that's what you told the June grand jury June of 23 correct are you referring to the state Grand jerio I'm sorry that's why I'm using dates I'm trying to be careful right April I'm just not I'm just not clar on what all the dates were I'll see if I can clarify okay April 2022 State grandury June of 2023 a different grand jury okay okay when you were asked at the June of 2023 grand jury um did you ever talk with Karen Reed at the waterfall that night your answer was I did not correct yes okay um with the Court's permission can I play a small clip from exhibit 53 okay starting at time stamp 11:53 and 15 seconds if we could just play this and I would direct your attention sir to the upper right hand corner pause it do you recognize the individuals in this CLI yes you recognize that person yes I believe that's me you recognize that person I do I believe that's the defendant Miss Reed yes what does it appear you are doing as it relates to this Reed in this it appears that I'm talking at the table I don't know if it's specifically to her but so did you see the part of the clip uh starting at 11:53 and 15 seconds going back about 30 seconds yes okay who did it appear you were talking directly to and who did it appear was answering directly IR ly to you I looked like I was speaking but I I can't say for sure that I was directly talking to the defendant even though it looked like you were looking right at her and leaning toward her and she was answering you I was definitely looking that way I just I don't remember the conversation the reality is we can take that down the reality is Mr Albert you had many conversations with her throughout the night like you would with anybody else you were socializing with correct no it's not like you ignored her through that evening no just know I think that just the positioning of me on the other side of the table I didn't have really much contact there was only one person between you and that was Mr Higgins no I don't think that was the setup for the whole night I didn't say the whole I'm talking about right then right so an example right what's your question rephrase your question please did you or did you not have conversations with Karen Reed that night I do I do not recall having conversations with Karen re that night at all no and that's what you told the grand jury under oath not withstanding this video evidence to the contrary yes I don't think that that video shows that I'm going to let that stand next question please you were interviewed by Michael Proctor on January 29th the day after this incident correct yes and that was 6 days after you spent several hours Karen Reed at this event correct 6 days later yes you were asked by Michael Proctor whether or not you knew or what your relationship was with Karen Reed correct I don't recall if he asked me that did you say to Michael Proctor quote that you you quote did not know Karen Reed end quote I may have yes but when you made that statement you did not know that Miss Reed had a photograph of you at the hillside bar correct you didn't know that photo existed objection suain sir you were trying to distance yourself from Miss Reed in your interview with Michael Proctor weren't you objection were you no I was not Mr Albert you were trying to distance yourself from knowing this read in your grand jury testimony with well I'll use the date in your April 2022 grand jury testimony weren't you no you were further trying to distance yourself from Miss Reed in your June 2023 grand jury testimony as well correct no you thought that it was important to try to deny knowing John O'Keefe and Karen Reed during those interviews and or that testimony objection sustained Mr Albert you knew that if you admitted having a relationship with John O'Keefe and Karen Reed you'd have a lot to answer for when Karen Reed's boyfriend ended up dead on your lawn 6 days later correct objection sustained you can ask the question differently you knew that there would be questions about your relationship with Karen Reed if it were known that you knew her before her boyfriend ended up dead on your lawn 6 days later correct there would be questions objection can ask it to different way that's sustained so you lied under oath when you said I've never met or seen her before correct no because that wasn't my whole statement the sentence I've never met or seen her before it's pretty unequivocal isn't it that was not the context of my whole sentence but that's the words that came with those are the words that came out of your mouth right initially and then I remembered that I had met her once let me just ask it this way sure is that sentence true or false that you had never met or seen her before true or false that portion of that sentence is false let's get this on the record did joh o'keef come into your house at 34 Fairview at any time on January 29th 2022 absolutely not I wished he had and you're as sure about that as you are about the statement that you had never met or seen Karen Reed in your life objection correct sustained can ask it differently Mr Jackson I want to get back to the waterfall I know I asked you this about the hillside I may not have asked you about this this specific question about the the waterfall did Brian Higgins say anything to you about John O'Keefe and Karen Reed walking in together at the waterfall no did he say anything or give you any IND any indication that he was upset about Karen Reed showing up with John o'keef no he did not it appeared from your observations that John and Karen were getting along at the waterfall I didn't really notice but I didn't notice anything was wrong they appeared Pleasant yes happy I don't know if they appeared happy I I didn't really notice they were interacting with others yes you didn't notice any tension no no argument no no yelling or fighting no they looked like a normal happy couple yes um did either of them appear to you to be completely drunk I didn't have a ton of interaction with John or Karen that night so I I can't really say but it didn't appear them that they were drunk no you've had an opportunity to to review the the waterfall video you did it with Mr L correct the only small portion of it right but even in that small portion and based on your memory you don't remember them anybody being stumbling drunk and falling down over stools and things of that nature no okay they appear to be acting appropriately yes and interacting with others appropriately yes people were dying buying drinks for others is that right I'm I'm sure I don't recall exactly but I'm I'm sure that was going on yes not that unusual to say hey I I'll get this round correct yes okay um you left the waterfall at 11:58 is that right yes approximately who was invited to come over to your house upon leaving the waterfall whoever wanted to really You' been drinking since about what time in the evening or in the afternoon um 9ish that's when you went to the hillside yes that's when you had your first drink yes and you continued drinking throughout the evening consistently yes did you believe you were okay to drive yes um what kind of car did you have at the time uh Ford Edge black yes uh who rode did you drive that car home from the waterfall yes uh who rode with you uh my wife and my daughter what other cars were in the driveway when you got there I don't recall Brian Higgins jeep was in the driveway backing up as we pulled in so kind of in your way yes in other words you weren't going to park you weren't going to park him in I didn't want I didn't want to block him in right right so he you waited until he moved his Jeep out of the way yes and then you pulled in where where in the driveway did you pull in I believe I pulled to the left side of the driveway uh you would have been closest to the garage or was there a car between you and the garage I would have been closest to the left side walkway I I don't think there was a car in front of me but I'm not 100% um Mr Albert did you move that black Fort Edge at any point that night after you got home no Brian Higgins was the first person to actually physically get to the house he got there before you correct yes describe his Jeep um he had a Jeep Wrangler I believe it's white I think it's white any appendage on it uh a plow a snow plow on the front yes that can hydraulically go up and down I didn't see it that closely I'm assuming it can but I don't I don't know that for sure after Mr Higgins moved out of your way out of the driveway where did he put that cheat I don't know I don't know where he pocked so you wouldn't have gotten to the house if you left waterfall at 11:58 you have to get out to your car get in your car start it up drive home wait for Brian Higgins to move his Jeep park your car then get into the house that's a fair assessment of the the mechanism of you getting home that night correct yes um you wouldn't have gotten into the house until what 12:15 maybe 15 minutes for all that I would put it more maybe 10 P 12 okay uh 1210 or so that would just be a that would just be a yes so it could have been 12:15 yeah and it could have been 12:07 who was inside the house when you walked in uh my nephew Colin my son Brian and then he had two friends female friends I believe it's uh Sarah and Julie what were they doing inside the house uh they were sitting at the kitchen table and your nephew Colin um how old was he at the time I believe 17 or 18 describe them in what way height weight so two and a half years ago um so he was probably 5'11 maybe 6 feet and probably you know I'm guessing 175 lbs big boy he's not not a small kid right I bigger than me significantly yes athletic guy yes played football yes good at football yes you testified that you went to the bathroom after you arrived home correct yes after saying hi to everybody I went to the bathroom was that upstairs or downstairs I'm not sure I have a bathroom downstairs and up not downstairs but on that floor and then upstairs so I'm not sure which one I went to when you came back think it was upstairs sorry I didn't mean to I think it may have been upstairs but I'm not sure when you came back downstairs uh from the bathroom or came out of the bathroom wherever it was uh you no longer saw Colin yes prior to going to the bathroom Colin had said that he was getting picked up but you never saw him leave no you didn't see him leave the house and you didn't see him get picked up by anybody I did not you didn't see a car outside waiting for him correct I didn't no you did give an initial statement on the morning of the 29th to Michael lank about 7: a.m. is that right Officer Len was in the house at that time and speaking to all of us really and you've admitted that you have known Michael L for many years is that right yes did you see that as a problem in what way conflict of interest jackon I'll let him have it did you see that as a conflict no you were asked who was present at the house that night the night before right yes you stated the following people were at the house that night quote in in response to officer lank's uh question at some point during the time in question that's how he phrased the question who was at the house at some point during the time in question you understood that right I don't recall his question no you knew that he was asking who was in the house right that's right yes so you mentioned Brian Albert Jr yes your son you mentioned Caitlyn Albert your eldest yes you mentioned Julie Nagel yes you mentioned Brian Higgins yes and then you added the detail that Caitlyn Albert had left your house about 12:15 a.m. correct no you didn't say that I did not that may have just a moment yes [Music] May yes show Mr L I'm sorry so you don't have to sit and read the entire thing there's a right at the top of this post it there's a word that says next if you would read that area that next few sentences let me know when you're finished yes thank [Music] [Applause] you did you have an opportunity to review that portion of a report we did did that refresh your recollection about a conversation that you had along with your wife with officer lank yes isn't it true that officer lank asked you asked you and your wife who else was in the house that night aside from the names already mentioned and the names mentioned were Brian Albert Jor Caitlyn Albert Julie Nagel Brian Higgins quote who is a friend of Brian Albert senior end quote is that right that's what the report says yes and then the report goes on to say they ADV Ed me that their daughter Caitlyn left the house around 12:15 a.m. when she was picked up by her boyfriend Tristan mors right that's what the report says yes do you think officer L got it wrong perhaps yes did you say that uh Caitlyn left about 12:15 no did Nicole say in your presence that Caitlyn left about 1215 she did not at any point did uh officer Len ask you what time Caitlyn left I don't recall him asking that it was a very chaotic morning and I I I don't remember him saying that so in fact if he wrote that sentence in the report which you just read he's just picking that up Jack suain I'll ask it a different way if that's what officer link recalls he's just wrong right yes anything else that he's wrong about in there I didn't read the whole report at no point isn't it true that at no point during that interview did you admit or mention that Colin Albert had been at the house that night I don't believe I did no at no point during that interview did your wife Nicole in your presence admit or mention that Colin Albert was in the house that night no so did both of you conveniently forget that Colin was there objection I'll ask it a did you forget that Colin had been there no is there a reason that you left his name out because he he wasn't the he left when we got there he wasn't there for the duration of the of the time that we had that night except for the fact that you just testified you never saw him correct well he said he was getting picked up and then he was gone so I assumed he left people say a lot of things but you didn't see him leave and you didn't see him in the the the regular floor of the house according to you correct right ground floor the house right he was no longer in my house so he left well you didn't search the house did you no time right and you never saw him leave I didn't physically see him leave no you also gave a statement to Michael Proctor later that morning it was about noon maybe it was in the afternoon noon 12:30 something like that are you asking on the 29th you later after you spoke with officer lank you later were interviewed by Trooper Michael Proctor over at Jen mcc's house do you remember that yes Colin's name was never mentioned then either no because Colin wasn't at the house for the duration of the night so when they said who was in the house talked about Brian Albert Caitlyn Albert yes folks in the house yesel yes there were other people in the house prior to us arriving I didn't mention them either who that uh there were some females um friends that were over prior to our arrival and I but but you never even saw them no so you have no idea who was there and who wasn't there before you got there no I know that there were people at was PRI to me getting there Mr Albert the question that would been posed To You by several officers was who did you see in your home when you got there correct objection I'll allow it I don't believe that's how it was asked no but colum's name was never mentioned was left out um I testified multiple times that colum was there when we arrived oh you you did after the fact right yes when I was at you knew that the defense knew that Colin was there Jackson sustained in your initial reports to the police his name was never mentioned was it I did not mention it no and Nicole did not mention it in your presence did she in my presence no let's talk about Caitlyn Albert your eldest you told officer lank that your daughter well according to officer lank let me rephrase the question based on our our colloquy back and forth according to officer lank you're aware that he wrote he was told she was gone by 12:15 correct that's what he wrote in the report yes if Caitlyn was gone by 12:15 she would not have been there when John and Karen arrived to the house correct because they didn't arrive for 15 minutes later but she was at the house so that would be hypothetical okay so fine hypotheticals let's let me ask you hypothetically if in fact Caitlyn was gone by 12:15 that would mean hypothetically she would not have been there when John and Karen arrived 15 minutes later objection assistant when you were interviewed by Officer lank that morning other people were in the room not just you and officer Len correct yes I wouldn't consider that morning to be an interview with officer Len more of a conversation yes during that conversation Nicole was there yes she was in earshot yes when she was being when she was involved in the conversation you were with an earshot yes Brian Jr would have been within your shot Brian Jr wasn't downstairs most of that morning so he may not have been but he was there for part of the yeah but I don't I'm not sure that he was there at the time my um uh lank officer lank was asking questions the fact of the matter is notwithstanding what officer lank wrote that you said about Caitlyn leaving at 1215 she did not leave at 12:5 isn't that right she did not no as a matter of fact in truth except for the people who lived there Caitlyn was the very last person to leave that location that morning correct I believe so yes and she's admitted that she did not leave until nearly 2: a.m. 1:45 correct jaction sustained you're aware that she did not leave until 1:45 or thereafter is that right I believe that's around the time yes were you trying to cover for Caitlyn so your daughter would not be wrapped up in this investigation no but as a reminder when you were spoken to by the first two officers who discussed who was in the house you never mentioned Colin was even there correct Jackson we've gone over that next question please sustained if Colin was gone just like Caitlyn was gone that would eliminate them from ever being at the house at the same time as John o'keef and Karen right objection assistant on January 29th about 11:30 or 12 we talked about the fact that you were interviewed by Michael Proctor at Jen McCabe's house correct yes you knew at the time that the state police were looking to interview Jennifer mccab about her um understanding of what was what had happened the night before objection sustained you were notified that the state police were going to interview Jen mck jaction I'll allow were you notified that no you knew the subject matter of an interview with Jen mccab was going to happen over the subject matter of the night before was going to happen over at Jen McCabe's house that's why you went there right objection no I allow it no isn't it true that you knew you had been notified uh or at least you believed that an interview with Jim McCabe as part of an official police investigation was going to occur at her house yes you were not asked by the police to join her correct no um you had no official reason to be at Jen mcc's House correct what do you I don't know what you mean by official reason you were not working the investigation yourself witness correct right so you had no official reason to be at Jen mcc's house during an interview with Jen McCay jaction y allow it no so but before she gave her statement you made sure that you were right there to monitor that interview and exactly what was said correct objection were you in her house when Jim McCay was interviewed by Michael Pro her house yes you had gone to her house correct I did you went there before she gave the interview yes so you were there in her house during the entirety of her interview correct I believe so yes and importantly JY mccab knew you were in her house during that interview correct I assume she knew yes I mean you're in her house after all yes I want to get back to 34 Fairview if I could in the early morning hours of January 29th Brian Higgins directly followed you into the house after you walked in correct could you rephrase that sure you walked in even though there there were some moving of cars you were the first one to walk into the house and Brian Higgins followed you yes um Nicole and Caitlyn then came in shortly after that I think Nicole and Caitlyn probably came in around the same time as me and then Brian and then Brian Higgins sorry did you make another drink when she once she walked into the house did I make a drink did you make a drink grab yes okay when I say make a drink did you get a drink yes what would you what drink did you get I I don't know probably just would have been whatever it was at the house of beer or something okay did uh Higgins have another drink I don't know what did you do what did you and Brian Higgins do once you were inside the house um we just kind of hung out talked at any point did you and Brian Higgins go down to the basement no I don't remember going to the basement you don't remember going to the basement or you didn't go to the basement no I didn't go to the basement did Brian Higgins go to the basement not that I know of and you didn't go upstairs to the second floor did you I think I did go upstairs yes isn't it true that Brian Higgins has never been upstairs in your house prior to that night ever including that night specifically I don't think that's true enough no you owned a dog at the time correct yes a German Shepherd named Chloe yes mix describ that dog as being not great with strangers isn't that true I did describe it that way yes you testified that quote it started barking because it realized that people were downstairs end quote right yes Chloe had a pension for barking when she heard people correct no not necessarily she did that night yeah I think she wanted to use the bathroom well that's not what you said in your testimony you said it started barking because it realized there were people downstairs right right so your German Shepherd probably a decent dog guard dog if she heard commotion and people she would bark objection Su stange you can ask it differently obviously if Chloe hears commotion and people she's apt to bark that's the only question no so just that night out of nowhere first time ever ch starts barking when people walk into the the house no it's not the first time ever but she didn't bark often okay but she did bark that night right yes and the reason that you gave under oath for why she started barking was because there were people downstairs Milling about right yes so in that instance on January 29th in the early morning hours she was barking because she heard people well I can't say why she was barking well you did say why she was barking I let her out to use the bathroom so I think that's probably why except your testimony was it started barking because it realized there were people downstairs those are your words Mr Albert not okay do you stand by those yes okay you ultimately did let Chloe out to go to the bathroom correct yes and then you allowed her to stay downstairs and you monit her monitored her with the others who were in the house isn't that right yes as a matter of fact you testified in that state grand jury the same April grand jury April of 2022 so I let it go out to the bathroom I let it back in I kind of monitored it a little because we we usually don't have people over the house and the dog's not great with strangers period so I was just making sure that the dog was all right with the people that were over end quote correct yes so in fact you did keep Chloe downstairs at least for a period of time with people that were over right yes for a few minutes I think Mr Albert after you learned that there were questions being raised about John's injuries and dog bites and scratches in May of 2022 you got rid of that dog did you not jaction suain you can ask it differently at some point your family got rid of Chloe Chloe was rehomed in may use whatever words we want to rehomed rehoused whatever but you got rid of her she's no longer part of the Albert family right Jackson allow that right when did you get rid of her so Khloe was rehomed in I believe May of 2022 of 2022 just months after this the incident we were discussing well after it was involved she was involved in a dog fight with another dog out front right but that's also after begin discuss it yes may that's a family pet that you would had for 6 years or 7even years approximately 6 or seven years not sure your explanation just now for having gotten rid of that dog is because it bit another dog and ultimately sent two women to the hospital correct I believe two women went to the hospital yes but you took no action to get rid of Chloe until after you knew that serious questions were being raised about J O'Keefe's jaction correct sustain at some point you did realize there were questions being raised about joh O'Keefe's injuries on his arm correct Jackson they allow that did you realize that I heard some talk about it yes as of January of 2022 John O'Keefe had never been in your house had he John O'Keefe was never in my house before or after that date certainly John O'Keefe you would agree with me he would count where in your house he would count as a stranger to Chloe never met hypo hypothetically yes I want to ask you a couple of questions about your house where are I know there's multiple bedrooms are all the bedrooms on the top floor yes okay how many bedrooms five as we're looking at your house from the street looking at your house are your bedroom windows your and Nicole's bedroom windows visible from the street yes which Windows would they be if you were facing the house they would be five left corner upper or lower upper upper left corner yes how many windows three or two service two H with the Court's permission could I display exhibit 66 okay do you see what is displayed on that um on that television yes what does that appear to be to you uh the house had 34 fa Road okay understanding this is a graphic representation not a photograph uh do you see the windows that you've just described servicing your bedroom on that OT that uh graphic yes are they right there yes okay upper left two windows correct yes and those Overlook what part of the lawn uh the front lawn okay front lawn for the left side of the house not toward the driveway correct right I mean it's the whole front lawn but yeah right but they're toward the left side of the house the windows are yes are they are they asked about the view right so the used the whole front yard I'm just trying to make the record the the spoken record as clear as possible they're on the left side of the house yes they Overlook directly Overlook they directly overlook this portion of the lawn the left side of the lawn yes furthest from the driveway yes we can take that [Music] down where's your bed or where was your bed inside that room as relates to the windows I'm just trying to think of how to describe it so the bed would be in the middle of the bedroom okay it's a bad question on my part because we haven't done that let's do it this way how many feet from the windows would the closest part of your bed be to those windows maybe 5T 6 ft you indicated that Nicole came to bed about 2:00 in the morning yes where was the dog uh the dog was in my room and she was sleeping on a mat in your room yes and that mat is also about 6 feet from the windows yes 6 feet being from me to miss little maybe this far could be yes maybe a little further but yes maybe this far maybe a relatively quiet street generally fair you yes not an enormous amount of through traffic no not a busy freeway or a highway correct no um not an especially noisy Street the street no especially at 6:00 a.m. on a Saturday morning right right where were you at 6:03 on the morning of January 29th 2022 I was sleeping in my room 6 ft from that window yes was Nicole in bed with you yes had you taken any medication the night before no were you on any sedatives no sleeping pills no were you wearing a sleep apnea machine no you're wearing an eye mask no or you're wearing earplugs no you shortly thereafter became aware that six emergency vehicles including a fire engine police cruisers and unmarked police vehicles a civilian SUV were all parked in front of your house that morning correct uh I'm not aware of what type of vehicles were parked they know you seen photographs since this incident of the vehicles out front right no um are you aware that those all of those Vehicles had their engines running no are you aware that all all the emergency vehicles at least had their lights on flashing lights no were you aware that there were a First Responders outside their vehicles traing around your lawn was I aware were you aware at the time no were you aware that there were emergency responders First Responders who were talking to each other over the den of the Wind in the snow what to to communicate with each other no you aware that there were three women on your lawn at one point just only after the fact and at least one of those women was screaming to the top of her lungs at 603 no again your German Shepherd was 6 feet from the window correct um I don't know that for sure if that's where mat was well that doesn't mean that's where she always is she also sleeps in the closet area sometimes oh so now chlo's in the closet I didn't say she was in the closet I said she sleeps in the closet area sometimes was she sleeping in the closet area that morning I don't remember likelihood is you sleeping on that mat five or six feet from that window correct jaction I don't know and your explanation and by the way we've already talked about this earlier that day you've already indicated she was barking because she heard people and noises downstairs when you guys came in the house yes okay um and your explanation is that you and Nicole and Chloe the German Shepherd all slept through the entirety of that commotion on your front lawn yes to be clear you are a trained first responder yes yet during that entire event after you were awakened all that Chaos on your front lawn you never came out of your house to assist or investigate in any manner whatsoever did you Mr Albert once I was awakened correct no we've talked about this a little bit but I want to ask you a couple of other questions about the layout of the house the house is sitting on top of a basement correct yes or was at the time describe how you get to the basement from inside the house if you come in the front door and when I say I'm sorry to do this I don't mean to interrupt you there's two front doors that you can go in correct yes for for purposes of my question Mr Albert I'm going to talk about the one that's right in front of you the obvious one as the front door and the one to the right of it as you're looking at the house as the side door okay okay cuz I don't know how else to describe if you come in the front door describe for the jurors where is the basement door as compared to that so you walk straight ahead you pass the kitchen dining room area opening on your right hand side and there's a door on the left how many Paces the door opens how many Paces to walk over and grab that door handle I'm not sure maybe 10 10 full paces maybe yeah so maybe eight maybe eight Albert it's about four long steps correct well I don't know you asked Paces so you know six feet 6 feet 6 to 8 feet maybe got it what was the basement used for in January of 2022 um so the basement had a uh weight room in one of the rooms and the other room was nothing at the time um it had been damaged water damaged due to a overflowed toilet so part of the flooring had been ripped up yes and that opened up some slab concrete downstairs yes there was also some plywood downstairs yes there were a couple of mats where the actual weights were so they're not slamming down onto concrete yes but there was a good amount of that floor that was just exposed concrete yes the workout equipment would include things like what barbells dumbbells yes heavy weights yes heavy bars yep made from metal yep once you're down in the basement by the way there's two flights that you go down at Angles to get to the basement a series of steps a landing take a left another series of steps and you stand on the basement yes not a not a um long stair staircase very small but right I mean it's narrow and tight but in other words you don't just walk straight down a staircase you go down to a FL to a landing turn left turns a little go down turn left again and now you're in the basement yes if you wanted to move something large or heavy out of that basement without having to go through the house could you do that objection I'll allow it could you rephrase the question oh say it again if you wanted to move something large or heavy out of that basement without having to go through the main house could you do that yes I mean it would depend what it was obviously how how big it was or how would you do that um there a bulkhead door you can use got it where does that bulkhead door come out of it comes out to the backyard right at the kitchen area you can you can see it from the kitchen and right to the left of that is the side fence yes and directly through that side fence is the front yard yes the same side of the front yard as joh O's body was found yes R I would ask um at this point to Mark a video I have just y yes Mr Jackson would you like to take the morning recess that'd be great good time yes thank [Music] you Mr Albert and if you could please tell me if you recognize what's depicted in that photograph yes it's the uh bulkhead stair stairway is that the stairway that you earlier described for the jurors as servicing the the basement going into the backyard yes yes I would have as to have this Mark this next in order any objection exibit May yes we to publish okay do you see the what's depicted on the on the television screen yes does that appear to be the same uh as what you're holding right there that that exhibit it does yes okay I'm going to direct your attention if I could to the lower left portion of this Photograph can right there there do you see that tell what that is I can't let me let me highlight one more time right there maybe it's easier if you look on your photograph are you are you um referring to the doob I got I got it here yes I'm sorry it's sort of hidden on that photograph so I apologize um is that the door that swings open or closed to close off the basement yes then if you open that door it's in the open position now correct yes so the photographer is standing in the basement looking toward the doorway correct yes then you climb seven or eight stairs yes and that bulkhead door which where all the light is emanating how does that open so the bulkhead door opens straight up okay at least in that photograph it was hinged toward the house and it would open up like a I don't know like a sandwich or something it opens straight up to the uh bay windows that are in the kitchen got it okay um okay that's all I need for that photograph yor I have a flash drive with a video on it I'd ask that this be marked as next in order Court's permission assuming it's the same one no objection it's the same one9 [Music] Mr Albert I want to ask you to take a look in just a second at a video and then describe if you recognize what's in that video I'll probably play maybe five or 10 seconds of it and then pause it that's okay permission yes pause do you recognize was depicted in that video at least up to that point no does that look like your basement door although the bulkhead doors have been replaced different the whole thing looks different to me I let's go play the video pause now do you recognize what's depicted in the video yes what is that so that's my back was my backyard okay and what area is over to the left over here that's um a gate okay and what does that gate open up to to the front yard so the area that we're looking at right now where the the photographer is standing is the backyard yes now having seen that not withstanding the way the the bulkhead doors open now do you recognize what was picted at the beginning of the video which was that staircase yes the the downstairs door the door itself the wooden door itself also looks different okay so but it is but but it is the stairway yes going into the basement yes or coming out of the basement yes so in other words another way to put that is that represented the Ingress and egress through the bulkhead to the basement yes okay U let's go ahead and play this for [Music] [Music] did you recognize what was depicted in the video bring the lights up thank you thank you your honor did you Rec recognize what was depicted in the video as it continued to play yes describe that for the jurors please uh it looked like the video was from walking from the backyard towards the front yard so the video started at the bhead door turned toward the the fence went through the fence and right up toward the flag hole correct yes is that an accurate representation of the layout of the house where you live there on January 28 29th 2022 yes with the exception of the bulkhead door having been replaced and maybe the basement door yes by the way the 34 Fairview house had been in your family at that time in 2022 or two generations my parents built the house in the late 7s 79 maybe so if your parents are one generation you and your family are another generation two generations right nearly maybe actually little more than 50 years half a century that what what that it was the Albert home yes the fact is you listed that house for sale for the first time ever in November of 2022 correct that's the time we listed it yes just months after joh O'Keefe was found on your lawn objection stained Mr Albert is that timing according to you a coincidence is what is that timing a coincidence well that's not the timing actually we contacted the realtor in 2021 finally listed it in 2022 so that would be that would be pre-incident so the listing coming 9 months after joh o was found dead in your lawn or dying in your lawn that's just coincidence you had this in place long before that so I'll sustain the question you can ask it differently sure all I'm asking is the timing November of 2022 listing that house for sale for the first time in November that in your mind is just a coincidence it's not a coincidence because we started trying to look into selling the house in 2021 which was the few months prior to the incident on January 28th 2022 you were still a an active Boston police officer correct yes what was your job title in January 2022 sent detective that means you not only respond incidents uh you actually conduct investigations as a detective correct yeah yes primarily uh fugitive investigations you have additional training in order to hold the title and hold a position as a detective is that right yes not just a regular patrol officer you have to have special training to get to the rank of detective is that right yes as a sergeant detective that's above a regular detective in indeed because you're a supervising detective is that right yes you have experience in train uh experience and training in order to hold that position as a supervisor in the detective spot as as well yes the there're Civil Service tests for the rank but yes and you've investigated crimes I mean I'm guessing just a ton of different types of crimes including assaults uh manslaughters homicides kidnappings things of that nature no you've never investigated anything like that no so what what's the the the parameters of your investigative skills as you held that title of Sergeant detective so my parameters were investigating Fugitive investigations that was my specialty I guess you could say so you've responded to obviously to countless incidents and scenes as both a patrol officer as well as a detective yes uh you've supervised the investigation of the at least the fugitive type of of crimes correct yes fugitives trying to thwart investigators to try to find them right yes that's that's their whole it's the cat and mouse thing right right um You being the cat correct sometimes yes um you're also trained in techniques obviously any detective would be trained in techniques that culpes might use or suspects might use to sort of cover up investigations I'm sorry to cover up crimes to thwart investigations correct objection do you have that training sir no so you in all of your training 30 years as a Boston off and as a sergeant detective you don't have any training in what techniques criminals might use to to try to cover up their their conduct no I've never gone to a training for criminals to cover up conduct no never been trained in the fact that I don't know somebody might want to clean up blood at a scene no jaction the answer St what about sanitizing a location Jackson I allow it no what about getting rid of electronic data you've got to have training in that no in other words the fugitives that you chase down and try to find you don't try to utilize electronic data to go after them sometimes we we do but I don't have any training in in it per se I mean things like GPS data and phone calls and text messages and Communications and things of that nature obviously yes yes clearly these are all things that at least those things are things that if you didn't have formal training you got on the job training and just have common sense about how to go after these type of this type of evidence correct yes sir you had an iPhone with a number ending in 0888 back in January 2022 did you not yes how many years did you have that iPhone as of January 28th 2022 of several years I'm not sure how many but multiple years and Mr Albert you were notified by the Commonwealth that on September 23rd 2022 in the fall of 2022 a judge specifically ordered that you were to preserve that phone I'll see council at sidebar Mr Albert you were notified by the Commonwealth that on September 23rd 2022 a judge specifically ordered you to preserve that phone and all its data the phone indigan 0888 is that right yeah at what time are you asking me that I was notified that day or the next on the 23rd on the 23rd or the 24th of September no isn't it true that you have provided a letter by the Commonwealth that stated the following your honor if I may read this is yes there's no objection thank you quote you were hereby notified that the defense in the case of Commonwealth versus Karen Reed Norfolk Superior criminal case sorry Norfolk Superior Court criminal case number 22-17 has filed a motion pursuant to mass R Crim p17 for the production of any cell phones that you used between January 28 2022 and February 28 2022 and or any data associated with those cell phones the hearing on Miss Reed's motion will be held on October 3rd 2022 at 2 p.m. in courtroom 1 of The norol Superior Court you may be heard on the motion at that time you are hereby placed on notice that these cell phones are the subject of pending litigation and you must not alter delete destroy or in any way manipulate any of the electronic data associated with the cell phone at issue you receive end quote you received that notice on either the 23rd or the 24th is that right I did not Governor I would POS a stipulation I spoke with Council off the Record if I may you both have a stipulation that I haven't seen we just determined I'm I'm happy to approach and why don't we approach quickly M yes I would offer the following stipulation that on either September 23rd or September 24th the Commonwealth sent a letter on Commonwealth letterhead to Mr Albert's attention uh stating exactly what was just read into the record pursuant to the uh court order dated September 23rd 2022 okay all right next question thank you honor isn't it true that you were in fact ordered to preserve your cell phone by the Commonwealth at some point I was made aware of that yes all right let's just get to the brast tax where's your phone uh my phone was upgraded and uh traded in for a new phone your phone was upgraded and traded in for the for a new phone yes okay another way to say that is you traded your phone in and got rid of it correct I traded my phone and upgraded it yes when did you get rid of your phone ending in 0888 i upgraded my phone in September 3rd week of September maybe around 22nd the 22nd of September I believe so I can't be sure the exact date so according to you you got rid of the phone that was the subject of a court order preservation the day before it was ordered preserved right what's the what rephrase the question please this order it was just stipulated this order is dated September 23rd 2022 it was just stipulated that on the 23rd or 24th you were then sent a notice to to preserve the phone and your testimony is on the 22nd the day before this all happened you upgraded your phone and got rid of it in total correct I upgraded my phone on on and around the 22nd yes and you knew that all of the data on that phone would be factory reset and destroyed jaction do you know that sir I do not know that how many times have you upgraded your phone in your iPhone I'm not sure um four or five times maybe you're aware that when you turn a phone in and you upgrade it the phone that you turn in that data is factory reset meaning it's gone it's destroyed off of that device correct well I think some data transfers and some doesn't we're not talking about a backup I'm talking about the physical physical phone that physical phone becomes a brick when you turn it in correct correct that it becomes a brick I I don't know becomes effectively a brick there is no data left on the phone I'm not talking about backup data onto a cloud I'm talking about that phone so the old phone yes yeah it's just everything on it it's destroyed correct right although some trans some of the data transfers to your new phone and you're aware that the very data that you were ordered to preserve would have been destroyed you according to you the day before four correct rephrase your question or ask me a question if you're if you're are you claiming that you got rid of your phone on the 22nd I upgraded my phone around that I'm not sure if that's the exact date but yes so could it could have been after the 22nd I don't think it was after the 22nd could have been the 24th no could have been the 25th no so you're absolutely sure that you could not have upgraded your phone and gotten rid of it any time after the 23rd when this judge ordered that it be preserved no because you know that if you got rid of that phone after you had been notified that you were ordered by a court to preserve it you'd be committing a Fel jaction sustained so you now claim that you got rid of the phone on September 22nd 2022 hours before you were ordered to preserve it that's your testimony correct yes is that just a coincidence um September 4th was my birthday the phone was broken and failing um I had planned on getting a new phone and that just happens to be the day that I got it happy birthday was that a coincidence objection sustained you were asked at another hearing in June of 2023 that exact question correct whether it was a coincidence you remember that I don't you recall being asked quote so it's just a coincidence that within minutes hours or days let's hear the question first within minutes hours or days of you trading in your phone that phone you had in January of 2022 that you were ordered to preserve it answer yes question that's a coincidence answer yes objection move to strike I'll let that stand that was your testimony wasn't it yes and that's what you're saying today to these jurors just a coincidence yes did you and Brian Higgins agree with each other that you both going to get rid of your phones objection I'll allow that no you told you testified at the other Hearing in June of 2022 quote I don't recall saying that I was going to get rid of my personal phone to Brian Higgins I may have said that you know there's personal stuff on my personal phone I don't recall saying that to him but I don't know we had multiple conversations about things in quote you remember testifying to that yes so you're not ruling out the fact that you may have told Brian Higgins that you intended to get rid of your phone correct no you're not ruling out the fact that Brian Higgins may have told you that he intended to get get rid of his phone no I don't remember him saying that to me your testimony was quote I know there were conversations about the phones I just can't say if he was going to get rid of his phone or not end quote you testified to that didn't you yeah I have no idea what he was going to do I'm asking are those your words did you testify to that under oath yes although I don't know the context of the time that they were asking that question June of 2020 no not the date of the hearing but when they were asking if and when that conversation took place does it really matter when it took place I think so yes when you talked to Brian Higgins about getting rid of your phones when do you think you had that conversation I don't think I talked to Brian Higgins about getting rid of my phones well you just said you can't rule out the fact that you had conversations with Brian Higgins about your phones and possibly getting rid of your phones right uh no I don't think that's what I said you two discussed the fact that you both wanted to get rid of your phones I don't remember having that conversation with Brian Higgins at all your testimony was quote I know there were conversations about the phones sir correct correct that that's what you're read so if you're having conversations with Brian Higgins about the phones what the heck were you talking about it I don't know the timing of when they asked when those conversations were Mr Albert so I'm leaving it open to you I don't care when it was I'm asking you have you ever had a conversation with Brian Higgins about your phones respectively we may have I just don't I can't remember that conversation specifically then why in June of 2023 did you testify I know there were conversations about the phones with Brian Higgins in quote I'm not sure the context of that so now you just can't remember no I don't think I could remember during that testimony either I think if you read the whole thing I I think I said I I'm not sure I don't remember your quote was I know there were conversations about the phones I just can't say if he said he was going to get rid of his phone or not in quote right does that help refresh your recollection yes so now as you sit here and you answer my question did you and Brian Higgins have a conversation about your phones I don't remember having that conversation with Brian Higgins all right let's shift gears before I shift yours you're aware that Brian Higgins has also gotten wor of his phone correct I am not aware of that until after the time you're talking about so without qualifying your answer answer my question as you sit here you're aware that Brian Higgins has also gotten rid of his phone I know at some point Brian or no Mr Albert did Jack can you answer that yes or no sir yes okay now I'd like to shift gears and talk a little bit about Michael Proctor did Michael Proctor come into your home at 34 Fairview on January 29th yes Michael Proctor let me rephrase the question I want to make sure we're I'm not talking about officer L officer good right Michael Proctor from the massachusett state police did he come into your home on January 29th he conducted an interview with my wife and I don't remember if was the 29th or the 30th that's what you're asking wasn't that interview on February 3rd it I feel like it was earlier than that but it could have been February 3rd okay presume for the purposes of my question that it was February 3rd that Michael Proctor interviewed your wife then he would not have come into your home on the 29th the 30th 31st the 1st or the 2 right and you know from your training obviously as a first responder The First 48 hours of an investigation are absolutely critical correct jaction do you know that sir in that context I I don't next question I mean you're aware there's a TV show called verse 48 Jackson your honor do you think the first 48 Hours of of a criminal investigation are critical Jackson you do know that the longer you wait to properly investigate anything the better chance that evidence can be manipulated or destroyed right you would agree with that yes did an investigator or any forensics team ever come into your house ever to photograph your entire home no I wish they had did an investigator yeah me too Che your just did an investigator or forensics team ever come into your house to search for physical evidence no did an investigator or team ever come into your house to search for trace evidence no did an investigator or forensic team ever come into your house to take carpet samples flooring samples from the basement for instance no and to this day you're aware that that's never happened yes sir you were in the Marines before you were a police officer correct yes you're a combat veteran yes how long were you in the Marine Corps uh four years during the course of your marine and military training did you have any training in hand toand combat Jackson I'll allow it yes in addition to your Marine training on the subject uh did you also receive additional training from the police department through the academy or otherwise on basic hand toand combat no so that's not part of the academy um not hand-to-hand combat no fighting techniques use things of that uh defensive tactics defensive tactics okay that's fighting right well it's not hand to-and combat no okay fair enough I may be using the wrong word it's physical it's training on how to either defend yourself or control another person physically yes I mean they're not going to send you out there on the streets completely ill equipped they need to know that you know how to defend yourself and how to put somebody in custody that doesn't want to be in custody correct yes and that might include fighting it could yes and beyond your Marine training and your police training you're inde independently trained in techniques of fighting in have I boxed before yes okay um and you've trained in boxing it's not like you just walk up and smack a heavy bag right you'd have to rephrase what you've trained you're a trained boxer you're a trained fighter I've boxed in the past and I've I've trained to box yes yeah I mean I'd hit a heavy bag right but I'm not a trained fighter you're a train fight all right so I'm going there's an objection you were standing Mr L yes sir jurors disregard that Mr Jackson no comments just questions please yes your honor um in fact your boxing skills were featured in a TV show that you were featured in as well correct objection I'll allow that no you were in fact no that they were featured in a show no you never shown on TV in a Ring sparring with somebody um I may have been shown training but I don't think I was having a boxing match no okay that's I I wasn't suggesting that you were having like a paper I was asking is there a TV show that showed you in a ring boxing well that's not what you asked me but if you're asking me that now yes I'm asking you that now I apologize my my questions are somewhat somewhat inartful yes you understand the question yes and you have been shown I use the word feature you've been shown on television in a boxing R yes sparring I didn't haven't seen the video in a while I'm not I'm not sure if I was sparing if we can your honor with Court's permission can we take a look at exhibit 53 okay um there's a clip starting at it's time of day 1147 and 15 seconds to 11 48 and 35 seconds maybe a minute and a half can you um en [Music] that pause do you see the two men uh in the foreground yes who are those two men looks like myself and Brian Higgins does it look like yourself and Brian Higgins or is that yourself and Brian Higgins yes it is okay we can go ahead and play that sorry for I've got one more clip to pay play but I have a couple of questions your honor would you uh let's take it down and you can put the other one up after the questions did you see what was displayed on that video yes had you seen that before uh pot of it yes is that what you and Mr L went over in your preparation for your testimony I don't think that we went over it but he showed me a quick clip of it when you say he showed you a quick look did he ask questions about it I don't think so no did you give him any answers about it no any explanations no just just showed you the clip and yeah he just said yeah it looks like we were fooling around okay so you did make an explanation given a yeah explanation for red I said I think we were just fooling around okay same thing you told us this morning right right just fooling around yeah just having fun with my friends and hanging out and fooling around absolutely what were you doing describe what you were doing um having fun with my friends hanging out just being silly okay describe physically what you were doing in the video um I was playing around sort of um getting in a boxing stance okay otherwise known as a fighting stance correct yeah for a second yes okay and what did Brian Higgins do when you got into a fighting stance um it looked like he was kind of doing the same thing fighting stance as well correct yeah what were you two talking about you tell you're talking right yeah I don't know what we were talking about we were just being silly fooling around having fun were you giving him advice on the proper way to get into a fighting stance or a boing boxing stance no you giving him some advice or some U some indicators about how to best position himself if someone is taking a an aggressive stance against him no no is he telling you what he thought was a good technique for fighting or boxing I don't think it was that serious we were just playing fooling around but both of you were in fighting stances facing off against each other correct yeah for a second or two and Mr Higgins you saw him Bob his head and then start walking up toward you like a boxer M correct yeah yes and then you got down pulled your your the the pant legs up and you squatted down to indicate getting low having low Center gravity correct that would not that that's indicating being silly that at some point while you're being silly you then faked a Right Punch toward him correct I didn't notice that but I'm not sure can we take a look uh at the next part of this clip which is at time of day 11:55 and 51 seconds I'm sorry 1154 and 52 seconds pause it highlight it okay there's several individuals crowded around a table can you describe who where you are and where Mr Higgins is Brian Higgins is the guy on the right with the hooded sweatshirt and the emblem on the back I have a pointed do you want me to use it uh that'd be great that'd be great so that's Brian Higgins and that's me okay go and play this pause did you see what you just did yes what' you do when you slapped his right arm what did I do what did you do what are you doing it looks like I'm just being silly fooling around okay I I'm going to ask you for a little bit more physical description what are you doing why are you grabbing him from behind uh I I don't really know is that a wrestling hold no I control hold no I don't think so is that some sort of a control hold that you've used in the past bear hugging somebody no that's just a silly fooling around with my buddy let's go ahead and play this stop it you see what Mr Higgins just did I I did yeah when you let him go what did he do I don't know he did some kind of I don't know he pretended to KNE me or something knee to the abdomen yeah I don't know if it made contact or not but Mr Albert I'm not suggested by my questions that you two are actually in a fight right I'm asking what he's doing does it seem to that he's playing like or practicing like techniques in fighting I I don't know what his intent was it looks like he's just fooling around just like I was but if a grown man walks up to you grabs you from behind and puts a knee up to your solar flexus that's probably not the same as a high5 right what's the what is your question in other words it looks like he's practicing some sort of fighting technique practicing I that's not how I see that how would you describe it just describe it as him fooling around we're in the bar together we're good friends and we're just being silly and fooling that's all there's a number of people in that bar you would agree with that yes you see anybody else in that video at any time getting physical with one another jaction this how much of this video have you actually watched uh not much okay then let me ask a different question from your memory of that night who are the only two people in the bar that seem to be getting physical with one another jackon can you answer that sure the the only person I remember being physical with was fooling around Bryant okay uh play just a little bit longer almost finished okay take that did you see the rest of that video yes no question that you two are being friendly with one another correct yes you would agree with that yes but it's all there's also no question that of all the people in that bar the only two people appear to be imitating fighting are you and Mr Higgins correct in that video yes and is there another video well no I just don't know what everybody else was doing in the bar do you remember anybody else you know Julie Albert or I don't remember Nicole getting into a scrap with someone no just you two correct yes Mr Albert this is minutes before everybody headed to your house at 34 Fairview correct yes including John o' Kee yes going back to the morning of January 29th U everyone had left your location this is after you had already arrived had a couple of fears people started leaving everybody was gone from your location at about 1:45 a.m. maybe a little thereafter that seems right Caitlyn being the last person to leave I believe so yes what did you do to get ready for for bed to settle in um I went upstairs and just lied in bed the TV was on I was just kind of watching TV you have a nightstand I do is it on your side of the bed or Nicole's or you have one on each we may have had one on each in that house put your phone on your nightstand no where'd you put your phone uh the phone was in bed with me so your testimony is that you get in bed after being on a road trip all day long then at restaurants and at bars then at a get together at your house and when you go to bed you don't charge your phone no I had the phone in the bed with me why would you have the phone in the bed with you um we have five kids um and you know if somebody was trying to call or if I needed to reach them it's just kind of a habit I do I put my reading glasses in my phone in bed with me and you don't charge it sometimes I charge it but not as a routine now so you're worried about having your kids out they might need to get a hold of Dad so you make sure that your phone is nice and close but it can just run out of batteries well if it's dying then I'll I'll put it in the charger but if not I just leave it on the bed what about that night that night the phone was on the on the bed how do you know well I remember the phone being on the bed you have a specific recollection from two and a half years ago about the state of the battery charge on your phone such that you know it was in your bed that no I just know as as a routine I keep my phone on the bed with me that's not what you just said you just said it depends on whether or not the battery needs to be charged whether or not you charg it my answer is that sometimes I of course charge my battery of course you but I but I sleep with the phone in my bed every single night yes mostly every night I thought you just said four questions ago it depends on whether or not the phone needs to be charged sometimes you keep it in the bed sometimes you put it on the charger if the phone needs to be charged I charge it but I sleep in bed with my phone Mr Albert did your phone need to be charged that night I don't remember if it did but I slept in bed with the phone you've been on a road trip most of the day correct yes you've been out at bars that night correct mhm is that yes yes you weren't charging your phone we just saw the the the video you weren't charging your phone at the bar right so when you got home clearly put your phone on a charger didn't you I did not so if your kids needed to get a hold of you why would be why would the phone being in your bed be any assistance to you instead of just on the charger at the nightstand that's just what I've always done I just keep it in my bed my wife my wife my wife does the same thing so now you got two phones in the bed yes okay and your glasses yes right between the two of you yes got it um your phone have a ringer on it it does ever thought about maybe turning the ringer on just in case the kids need to get a hold of you sometimes it's on vibrate sometimes it's on ring it depends yeah it depends on you just put it on ringer wouldn't that make more sense to go to bed put it on ringer jaction can you answer that all I can answer is that I sleep with my phone in my bed that's just what I do you know what I'm about to ask you which is why you're saying you sleep with the phone in the bed correct all right so that's that's sustained that's strien on Mr Jackson know all right uh what else is in the bed with you your keys your wallet any other pocket items no just the phone and your glasses yes and Nicole's phone yes right between the two of you usually yes what about that night yes so did did you make any phone calls after you went to bed between the hours of 1:45 a.m. and 6:30 a.m. yes who did you call I inadvertently called Brian Higgins what time I don't recall the exact time after after two 222 and 35 seconds does that sound familiar yes did you speak to Brian Higgins at any point between 1:45 a.m. 6:30 a.m. that night no you say you inadvertently called him at 2:22 in the morning yes how did you inadvertently call him well I don't know because it was inadvertant sort I have to explain that though well it's kind of like a butt dial like about that all right how long have you used an iPhone a long time um as a matter of fact you've been asked this question before haven't you yes hence my question you knew what I was going to ask you jaction I'll withraw um you indicated previously at a different Hearing in June of 2023 that you were quote hanging out with your wife and you must have butt dialed Mr Higgins correct yes at 222 and 35 seconds on January 29th 2022 correct yes you were asked how that could have happened much like I just asked how that could have happened right yes and in that hearing you said quote I'm not totally sure similar to what you just said here yes and here you added that it could have been been a butt dive yes you were then called back to to that same hearing but at a different date an ongoing hearing right yes that was in July of 2023 correct yes you then changed your testimony and said and I don't mean to be indelicate but your testimony was then that you were having an you were in an intimate situation I'll put it that way with Nicole at the time and that's how you butt dialed Brian Higgins correct I don't believe I said that's how I but dialed Brian Higgins that's the time I think I said there was a time frame that that was close Okay so I I didn't say that no all right what you said was you were in an intimate situation with at the time that the butt dial occurred correct I'm not sure if you if you have something you can read me or show me is it your testimony let me just ask is your testimony that you and your wife were in the middle of some sort of sexual or intimate situation and that's what caused you to butt dial the phone at that time at 2:22 a.m. Jackson s have to show you an exhibit briefly sorry just yes may I approach yes I'm not going to mark this see sir I just want to find out if this refreshes your recollection look at lines 11 through 13 and then let me know when you're prepared yes thank you may I apprach yes does that refresh your recollection that you indicated at the other hearing just just the first part of that first does that refresh your recollection it does okay now you can thank you your honor um isn't it true that at the other hearing you indicated that at or around the 222 time frame you and your wife were in bed together in an intimate situation yes around that time I think it reads uh um May I approach briefly yes well with the Court's permission let me ask a couple of questions do you recall every call that you made between say 1:45 a.m. and the next couple of days you remember every single one of those calls no have you do you think it would refresh your recollection to look at a log of those calls during that time frame if we're going to discuss those yes he coach yes [Applause] two I may not even goodam I'll show it yes that's a a two pages worth of documents if it refreshes your recollection as we walk through this um with the Court's permission uh let me know if you need to to refer to that right you know I'm not going to be able to read it right now I'll do it as you ask correct correct yeah no you don't need to read it right now just wanted to have it in front of you um by the way you've seen these records before correct at the other uh at the other hearing proceeding I've seen some records before yes I don't know if these exact records or not all right and you've acknowledged that uh at least the first page these are your phone records for the number ending 0888 correct yes okay um and these are call records from January 29th yes at 222 and 35 seconds in the morning correct yes whose number ends in 5421 according to this it's Brian Higgins the call at 222 and 35 seconds appears to be 1 second in length and that's from you to him correct it says 1 second I don't that would be the call the initial call from you to him the one that you claim is a butt dial is that right yes did that call roll a voicemail then you immediately hung up no I don't I don't I don't recall if it I don't I don't know so according to you it was a a butt dial that went to his phone that somehow lasted 1 second right okay um then there's a second call if you look at the second line down there's a second call at 222 and 52 seconds 17 seconds later correct yes that call is actually from Brian Higgins to you isn't it yes and that call doesn't last 1 second that call lasts 22 seconds corre correct yes obviously you know how long 22 seconds is what's that you know how long 22 seconds lasts yes so according to your phone records you placed a call to him and then 17 seconds later he returned a call to you that lasted 22 seconds correct that's what the records reflect yes when you woke up in the morning you obviously checked your phone did you not um I don't know if I did are you telling this jury that the call that came into your phone was a missed call or did you answer it I did not answer it so it would have been a missed call I just know I didn't I didn't answer the call so it would have been a missed call I don't know I I I don't know that to be a fact I just know I didn't answer the the phone call I missed the call yes that's what I mean right you missed the call right it did something on your phone and you just didn't answer according to you right okay and again you're using an iPhone yes if you butt dialed Brian Higgins and he called you back and you didn't answer you would have a very bright red missed call in your call log correct ja do you know that I don't know that have you ever missed a call on your iPhone before yes and when you go to your call logs it says missed calling red correct if your wife calls you your kids call you I don't think I've ever noticed that it's in red and I so no I don't know that to be ch you're certainly alerted to the fact that it's a missed call that you've missed a call correct if I were to go back and look at my incoming calls it would probably say Mr the call yes and of course if we asked you to show us your phone and show that that was a missed call you couldn't do that because you've gotten rid of that phone correct Jackson assistant did you tell anyone in law enforcement that next day that oddly Brian hi was calling you at 2:22 a.m. and you missed a call no I wasn't aware of that call if a call went to voicemail on your phone you would get that voicemail correct You' get notice of it if I checked my voicemails and there was a voicemail I would get it yes that's my question did you get a voicemail from Brian hiin no which means he didn't leave a voicemail right which would suggest that you answered the call correct objection sister let's talk for a second about this button dial you went to bed and you closed and your phone was you closed and locked your phone correct yes I don't want you to tell me what the passcode is Mr Albert that's important I want to make sure you you understand I'm not asking you to tell me what the passcode is but at the time was your passcode a four-digit or six-digit passcode four I believe and that locks the phone when it's not in use correct the phone will lock after it's not used for a while I don't know the exact timing of it you're exactly right Mr Albert I said it backward the phone automatically locks you have to use the forone Dig passcode to unlock it correct well no I also have voice um I mean face uh recognition too so we can open that way without any passcode we'll get to that in a second the phone locks when it's not in use correct yes and then to make a call once you open the phone either through facial recognition or through the passcode then you have to tap on the phone app in order to open up the phone app correct yes I I believe so once you open up that phone app there are only three ways that you can initiate a phone call favorites recents and contacts correct I don't know that if you tap on a contact that opens up up the contact page or the contact app right you know that yes that's where all your contacts are yes they're alphabetized yes you have to either scroll through or do a search and type in the name of the person you're looking for right you didn't do that did you no if you tap favorites if you have favorites listed there's a list of favorites you have to scroll through and tap the one that you want to call correct I think so yes I'm I'm not totally aware of that but and if you tap on recents those are the Rec call recent calls that you've had you've either received or made then of course you have to tap on the contact in the recents list that you want to call right yes and then of course you would have to tap again to end whatever call you initiated right yes I mean you don't just say goodbye you got to say goodbye and hang up you got to tap it to hang it up right so would you agree from a closed and locked phone there is no physical mechanism by which a person can hit one button and make a phone call [Music] objection are you saying that from your closed and locked phone you inadvertently tapped your phone one time and that initiated a butt dial to Brian jaction is that what you're saying no that's not what I'm saying tell me what you're saying how did you butt dial Brian higgins2 in the morning I don't know that the phone was locked um I could have been looking through my phone I but dial people often and make inadvertent calls um I could have hit a last call from him by accident thus calling his phone so you were actually awaken on your phone at the time I was awake and I could have been looking at my phone so Mr Albert how'd you miss the call 17 seconds later well my wife was in the room with me and we were hanging out and I never got the second call from him so I'm not sure what what time he called I'm not sure what I was doing at that second but I don't know but it didn't go to voicemail well I didn't get a voicemail from him no so it didn't go to voicemail well I don't know that it I didn't don't know that it didn't go to voicemail I just know that I didn't receive a voicemail from him so if you okay I mean we're all guessing here but I mean he could have called voicemail we're not all guessing you are because you don't know if he left a voicemail or didn't or at least got voicemail and then hung up the phone I think one of us is trying to guess your own Su you know what I want to see C sidebar for just are you now saying that your phone was open and unlocked 2:22 a.m. I'm saying I could have been are you saying that it was I don't know Mr Albert you were the only person that was there with your phone was the phone unlocked and did you make a call objection can you answer that sure I I don't know and 17 seconds later again presuming you're the only person there with the phone did you answer that call I did not you would agree that in order to answer a call you can't just look at your phone to answer it it has to be swiped physically correct I I think you can you can hit I think it comes up green or red for the phone call whether it's locked or not and you can hit green right but you have to hit a button yes did you hit a button to answer a call Brian I don't I don't mean to talk over you please let me finish my question did you hit a button to answer a phone call from Brian Higgins at 2:22 and 52 seconds in the morning not that I know of you do know that that phone will not answer on its own correct yes and simply touching your butt will not answer that phone it has to be swiped no I don't think it has to be swiped you would agree that a 22 second call from Brian Higgins had to have been answered by you isn't that right Jackson do you agree with that no did who else was in the room just myself and my wife and Chloe yes but Khloe's not a human so it was myself and my wife by process of elimination Nicole didn't answer that call did she no Chloe the non-human didn't answer that call did she no so who had to have answered the call Sir objection can you answer that I don't remember answering that call could have hit the phone by accident causing it to answer okay okay let's let's move on from this Mr CH you if I could have one or two more questions one more question now your testimony is you could have answered the call correct no my testimony is that I don't know you're asking me how it could have answered and I'm trying to answer your question at a prior Hearing in June of 2022 you were asked this exact question and you answered quote Yeah it's only possible that it's me in quote correct I don't recall answering that way but I'm not sure and you were also asked after being confronted with this these records I guess I could have talked to him meaning Mr Higgins correct there I don't recall saying that now let's move on did you have any conversation with Brian HS about a 2:22 a.m. phone call that next morning morning while everything was going on I mentioned to Brian that I may have butt dialed you last night sorry about that did the two of you agree that you were going to both say those calls were butt dials in order to cover up those calls objection you can answer that we did not say that but let's be clear since then and now you've gotten rid of your phone correct I upgraded my phone yes and since then and now Brian Higgins has gotten rid of his phone you're aware of that as well yes by the way you indicated that you were awakened in the morning by Jen mccab about 6:30 correct yes and when you woke up you said you grabbed your phone to make a call is that right no isn't it true that you grabbed your phone and called made a call at 7:20 in the morning yes but that's not when I was awoken by my sister-in-law sorry that that wasn't my question after you awake and you're up right started making calls right my question is what was the first call you made at 720 can I look at this if that refreshes your recollection with the Court's permission yes at 720 I called Brian Higgins Albert you have six siblings and five kids right yes you have in-laws cousins huge family correct yes but on the morning you find out that John O'Keefe is laying dead or dying on your on your lawn the first call you made at 720 was to Brian Higgins is that right yes the same person you had a call with or at least the logs indicate you had a call with at 2:22 in the morning correct yes during that 7:20 a.m. call did you two discuss the 222 a.m. calls no thought you just said that you told him oh I think I may a butt dial yeah that was later in the morning when he came to the house not on that 7:20 a.m. call no what did you talk about on that 7 7:20 a.m. call I informed him of what was going on at my house we were out the night before and I thought it was important for him to know what had happened Albert I have a couple of more questions about the the phones or the phone usage that morning and and in the day throughout the day um you called Brian Higgins at 7:20 a.m. for 1 minute and 56 seconds correct yes Brian Higgins called you at 7:30 for 5 minutes and 47 seconds yes you called Brian Higgins at 7:57 a.m. spoke for 12 minutes and 33 seconds yes you then called your brother Kevin Albert at 9:40 a.m. and spoke for 1 minute and 5 Seconds yes chief burwitz called you at 9:50 a.m. and left a voicemail is that right um he didn't leave me a voicemail but I think he called me you called Chief burkwitz back at 9:54 4 minutes later and spoke for 4 minutes and 40 seconds right yes you called Jen mccab at 11:30 a.m. is that right yes Jen mccab called you back at 12:20 p.m. you spoke for 7 minutes and 52 seconds yes we called Kevin Albert again at 2:01 in the afternoon and spoke for eight minutes yes you called Kevin Albert at 6:45 I'm sorry uh you called Brian Higgins at 3:24 p.m. and spoke for 6 minutes and 5 Seconds is that right and if it refreshes your recollection there's a second page second log you'll turn your attention to the 3:24 p.m. time frame trying to find it take your time what time are you referring to 3:24 p.m. I see it yes and there's a second call you call Brian Higgins at 6:12 p.m. and speak for a minute and 7 Seconds right yes and then the third one on that page you call Brian Higgins at 6:35 p.m. spoke for 10 minutes and 12 seconds correct yes turning back to your call logs you called Kevin Albert at 6:45 on the next uh on on that same day spoke for about 16 minutes yes then on the next day January 30th you called Chief burkowitz and spoke for a minute and 6 seconds yes and the following day you spoke with Jen mccab who called you at 8:04 p.m. correct yes and finally she berwitz called you at 1:48 p.m. on February 1st right yes three days later you spoke again to Brian Higgins at 8:48 a.m. is that right yes the subject of these calls Mr Albert were all about the fact that John O'Keefe was found dying on your yard on your lawn on January 29th 2022 isn't that right I don't know the subject of of all these calls no you had to have been talking about that event of course it was a horrible situation that was going on everybody was distraught and there were a lot of phone calls this this call log doesn't Encompass all the phone calls no it doesn't there are a lot of phone calls being made to a lot of people because of this horrible situation and the point is Mr Albert those many calls that you've just described especially as they pertain to Brian Higgins Jen mccab Kenny burwitz your brother Kevin Albert well those many calls and effort to get stories straight at the time no absolutely not with those many calls and effort I'm going to interrupt your jur um we're going to send the jury out is actually why don't we why don't we take the one I'll see com to theide cour all right please she never asks me all right so we'll have the lunch in recess all 2022 was a televised hearing objection sustained what did you know about the hearing date of September 22nd 20122 I didn't know anything about it knew nothing about it no okay um let me ask a different question this is going to Dove tail into a earlier um conversation you and I had concerning uh statement that you gave to the in the in June of 2023 to the other in the other hearing you understand what I'm saying yes I'm fumbling the the the language a little bit but you understand the hearing that I'm talking about yes you indicated a little bit earlier in my questioning that you did not recall saying something to the effect of yeah it's it's only possible that it was me who answered the phone you remember saying that that you didn't recall that yeah yes okay may I approach your honor yes thank you Mr robbert there's a highlighted portion of that uh transcript if you would just take a look at that when you're finished reviewing it just look up at me and let me know [Music] yes I get I appr yes thank you Mr Albert did that refresh your recollection as to the hqu that you had with someone questioning you about this issue in June of 23 yes and in fact uh you testified as follow qu as follows question is there can you just but than you objection your honor as far as a reading as far as what reading from the transcript he's asked him if his memories are freshed all right so go ahead and ask him a question don't read from the transcript did you in fact say in answer to the question if it's not your wife and it's not your dog who else is it possible on Earth to answer this phone answer yeah it's only possible that it's me did you say that yes just before the break I was asking you about those as you indicated many phone calls uh that you traded between and among your family members and friends including Brian Higgins you recall that yes well those calls an effort to get your stories straight about about how you were going to uh what statements you were going to give to law enforcement and how are you going to testify if this case ever went to trial no absolutely not were those calls or those many calls and effort to coordinate narratives between you and your friends and your family no were those manyi calls in any way discussing the fact of creating a story of mysterious butt dials objection sustained have a moment yeah [Applause] thank you H I have nothing further okay Mr L thank youor good afternoon sir good afternoon now you were asked some questions uh about the week prior to being at the waterfall at some point you were at the hillside correct yes and you were there with friends and family is that correct yes you weren't specifically there with either Mr o'keef or the defendant correct no I was not and same with respect to the waterfall on January 28th you were there with friends and family is that correct yes you weren't specifically there with Mr o' for defend correct no they came unrelated to anything I was doing and you were shown some video from the waterfall from January 28th in which um you were speaking at a sort of section of the table correct yes and was the defendant the only person in that section of the table no there were other people around her behind her is that correct yes it looked like there were other people at the table as well as situated right behind where she was sitting and those other people around her behind her those are people that you knew far better on January 28th than the defendant yes those are my relatives and friends and that's why I was at that location now you were asking questions about uh going over to miss Cab's house uh later on the afternoon it would be 29th correct yes why did you go over there um I went to Jen's house because she's my sister-in-law um she was going through an awful time that morning as we all were and I wanted to be there to comfort her if she needed anything um because we're so close I didn't want her to feel like this was too much for her to handle and again how long have you known miss m I've known Jen since she was probably 6 or seven years old she's like a sister me now at your home on the January 28th and January 29th when people came back after the waterfall um did you at any point in time uh go into the basement area of your home no did Brian hiin at any time going into the basement area home not that I know of did you see anyone go into the basement area of your home during the time that you were there after coming home to the water ball no now you were asked some questions about your dog uh Chloe and that she wasn't great with strangers what what exactly did you mean by that all I meant was that she wasn't overly affectionate with strangers um she was a a heavy dog not everybody likes dogs so if there's going to be people at the house that don't know the dog they might not particularly want her around them and were you more concerned about the people in the house that didn't know Chloe or you more more concerned about Chloe yourself uh the people in the house never has the do to my knowledge been aggressive to anybody except for the time that there was a fight between two dogs now you were shown in exhibit 66 um that was sort of a drawing of your house do you recall that yes and had you ever seen that prior to today no and do you recall specifically within the the drawing or the the artist rendering of your house there were certain lights on around the garage in the front door I did notice that yes and do you recall whether or not those lights were on uh when you came home from the waterfall on January 29th I I don't recall but you often times those lights are off and sometimes the bulbs don't don't even work in them and when Miss mccab uh comes into your bedroom uh sometime after 6:00 a.m. on the 29th yes that was uh following a day in which you woke up in New York City and went to a funeral is that correct yes I went to a funeral that morning and New York and that was for a fallen police officer from the New York City Police depk yes a police officer in New York that had been murdered while on duty um and that was his funeral and did you know that police officer whose funeral you attended objection the objection sustain next question now with reference to uh you then drive all the way home from New York to Massachusetts correct yes and you went out to a couple of different places had a couple drinks correct yes yes and then went back to your home and went to bed sometime around 2:00 a.m. or so yes after 2 and so about how long had you been asleep uh from the time that you dozed off to the time that Miss mcab comes into your bedroom that morning only a few hours probably 3 4 hours 3 and 1 half 4 hours now in relation to waking up that morning um you testified that you did not go outside correct yes and initially when I woke up and I was told what was going on out front I looked out my window and um I saw some emergency vehicles um I did not see John at that time um I came downstairs with my wife and she asked where was John and Jen said that he sustained next question what was your understanding of where Mr O'Keefe was when he came downstairs objection ask it differently Mr L in reference to when you came downstairs what was your understanding of uh medically what was going on outside your house objection the objection sustain was there any reason for you to go outside of your house at that time no there was not at that time there was no victim out in front of my house so there was no first aid for me to give there was nothing I could do now you were asking questions about the uh sort of Bulkhead in the uh the back of your house correct yes where is that bulkhead in relation to the bay windows of the kitchen that you were testifying about it so the bulkhead door is directly under the pay windows in the kitchen the bulkhead door opens up almost directly into the windows obviously without hitting them but it opens up into the front of the bay windows what you saw as far as that video that was shown to you that's not what the bulkhead looked like that's not what the door looked like at that time on January 28th or 29th 2022 no those not the doors we had and as far as the bulkhead was concerned when that bulkhead was opened around that time what if any kind of noise would that bulkhead a lot loud creaking old rusty metals sound when you opened it is that something that if it was open and you were in the kitchen area you could hear yes now in reference to that bulkhead uh what if any uh security or what if was it open was it locked how how was that left so the bulkhead door was shut and it was broken so sometimes you could turn the metal thing to to lock it and sometimes it would be hard to do but the wooden door that goes into the basement has a lock on the door one KN that is a door that we keep locked because we don't use it now as far as from the bulk head uh you were shown in that video a a gate that opens up to the front yard area of the house is that correct yes and what if any other gates are are located on the fence in your backyard so we also have a gate on the rear part of the Y fence and there's also a gate on the opposite side of the house and the gate in the rear area of Def fence where does that lead to so that leads to some woods and then eventually you'll hit some train tracks now with respect to your phone uh that was something that you had upgraded prior to any notification you received from the District Attorney's office or anything in relation to reserving your phone is that correct yes now with uh respect to that as far as the information contained within the phone um there are certain types of information are you famili with being sort of backed up by the cloud yes would that include calls it it could could that also include text yes did that include photos yes did that include contacts yes and the information that you were shown as far as certain call logs or call records as far as you know was that generated after that September of 2022 date yes now with respect to the preservation that was in regard to a a motion uh the council had filed for your physical phone correct yes and are you also aware of a judge's order denying that repeatedly as far as uh them gaining access to your physical phone objection I'll allow it yes it was denied on multiple occasions I'll strike the multiple [Music] occasions you were asked uh some questions about uh boxing correct yes and the boxing that you did that was in relation to a group associated with the Boston Police Department is that correct yes and when was the last time that you were involved in any kind of um actual boxing match um 20 close to 20 years ago now with respect to uh some of the training that you were talking about with respect to the Boston Police Department you were uh given some training as far as defensive tactics is that correct yes and is that something that is standard that is uh sort of given and administered to every Boston police officer yes so within the academy you go to uh the defensive tactics um training and that would include John o' ke correct uh [Music] yes now as far as your house uh we used to live 34 Fairview Road um what if anything uh Did You observe or notice with reference to cell phone reception in that area of your home so often times um using the phone within my house it seemed like it was a and it's the slang term the dead zone for the phone um it the reception wasn't great and is that something that recur over the time that you liveed there yes now with reference to the phone and prior to um the intimate moment that you shared with your wife sometime after 2 a.m. uh do you recall whether or not the the phone screen was locked at that time were you checking that at at that particular time I don't recall the exact timing but I know it was opened sometimes and then it was closed obviously at some point but I don't know the exact timing so the phone may not have been locked at the time that you began that situation with you what they may not have reference to the uh call LS phone records that you were shown uh best of your memory is that the enti of the phone calls that you made around that time no it looks like it's selective um people in numbers and with respect to uh those conversations uh if you recall what if anything in general terms we were discussing with either those people in the logs or or other people in general uh in general I'm sure there was some discussion about the awful thing that had taken place and there may have been other calls unrelated as well can I have one moment here yes Mr Albert on the early morning of January 29 2022 did John o' Keith ever come into your house that night John never came into my house that that night he would have been welcomed and the defendant would have been welcomed with open arms had they come in and I wish they had I really do were you ever even aware that John o' or the defendant were anywhere in the area of your house during that early morning of January 29th I was not nothing further on okay robt you talked about cell phone reception not being good in your house uh when did you Mr L talk about that cell phone reception issue the what the cell phone reception issue in your house it came up during a during one of the preps uh which prep uh I don't remember which prep probably the last one I thought you only had one prep with Mr L well we had the prep before the Grand jurry and then I had the prep for this trial okay so so that's two so you brought up the fact that you had bad cell phone reception in that preparation the conversation came up yes taking notes all I don't recall if he was taking notes was this recorded I don't believe so and where did you say this uh conversation took place so the prep was at the um District Attorney's office which is in Canton this morning when I asked you you said you couldn't quite remember where it took place you're right I couldn't remember this morning and I asked you could it have been the DA's office and now you're memor is refreshed yes what refreshed your memory between this morning and now I was just thinking about it in my head and reminded myself that it was the DA's office you caught me you caught me off guard when you would asked me I I didn't have it at the top of Mind did uh did you talk to Mr L uh over the lunch hour uh briefly bring up the fact that they had cell reception in your house over the lunch hour just now no what did you talk about over the lunch hour just what was how much time I was going to have left on the stand um that was really about it so you and Mr talked about the fact that you've been on Cross examination for 2 and a half hours and the conversation consisted of you probably got another 10 minutes yeah I think um he was going to lunch or doing something so so you didn't talk about the substance of your testimony no he didn't tell you what questions he was going to ask you on redirect maybe mentioned one one thing he may ask me but that was it like what was that um just he was going to ask about what happened at the house in the morning that's you know some of the questions on redirect that's all meaning he was going to ask you that question about whether or not John came in the house no not necessarily just ask you about whether or not you had bad cell receps in the house no what was he going to ask he was going to ask about the morning of the incident about coming downstairs and why I didn't go outside did he tell you what he thought would be helpful for the Commonwealth NOP he tell you how he thought you should answer that question no we did ask you about a about a a situation concerning motion to preserve correct no I'm sorry he asked you on redirect about the motion oh yes yes okay and he mentioned that there was a a motion that had been denied for us to get for the defense to get access to your physical phone right yes you're aware that that motion was denied in October of 2022 correct yes you had already gotten rid of your phone a month earlier had you yes and the preservation order from the judge was still in place when you got rid of that phone wasn't it no I believe the phone was upgraded prior to the preservation order oh right the day before yes that's all I all right Mr Albert you are all set sir okay thank you thank you Jerry