for for is is [Music] I uh when Joe West first originally contacted me here at Stateville prison I was on a visit the counselor came in the visiting room where I was at and stated that she wanted me to come out and make a phone call I told her said no way I'm here 365 days a year I'm not leaving my visit to go make a phone call I said who's calling she told me someone from Texas named Joe West told them I do not know the party as they tell them I'll call them on my time not their time I'm on a vision don't bother me me when I'm on a visit the next day they come got me out of my cell they took me downstairs and got a phone call hooked up I called Joe West to talk to him I told him you have three minutes to convince me why I should talk to you as Joe started talking to me I told him I said Whoa stop you're on a lot of touchy spots I said these phone calls are recorded every phone call going in and coming out is recorded if you want to talk to me that bad then I suggest you come and visit me Joe West had me put him on his visiting list he come up to visit me he spent two days up here talking with me the first day I wouldn't even talk to him about the Kennedy situation we got into uh Sports whether generally by prison local things till I got comfortable with him the next day after I thought it over all night Joe has seemed like a pretty nice guy I really like Joe he had a magnetism about him the next day we sit down we got serious and then we started talking I sit in the dining in the visiting room with Joe they gave us a pencil and paper I sketched the entire Lily Plaza out for him without any maps without any pictures nothing present and I explained to Joe at that time because Joe wanted to know where was I at and I said I'm going to put an x on the paper to signify me but this X is not in the correct spot I said when the time comes then I will put the X where it is supposed to be what had you told him to know that he uh that you were on the pardon me what had you told him that Joe knew you were on the oh I asked him he said that someone had informed him that I was there he said he had a reliable source and I didn't know for quite a while who that Source was it was quite sometime later before I learned the fact that the FBI was aware of my presence as early as 1964 cuz I never knew that anyone ever knew about me but Zack schaan from what I understand and I'm only quoting this from here today that back is the one that stated and gave me to Joe West the information on me that I was in D Plaza that's my understanding did you did you ever actually confess to taking the shot to Joe West no I never did make a statement never I never well the whole thing is like with Joe West Joe West died he passed away never knowing that I was one of two Shooters there in D Plaza that day Jo s never knew I was on the grassy nle uh do you have any thoughts on his death you think that was natural Jew West went in for heart surgery and from what I was told and what I understood that he had come through it fairly well and he was on the road to recovery but then I was informed there's complications with his medicine he was allergic to it or an allergy or something he saw that they killed him the medication killed him couple of years ago maybe a year and a half ago I heard through the grape vine and I won go into the party that brought this information to me they said that someone had tampered with Joe's medication and he had received the wrong medication because they wanted to silence him that's uh what his wife yeah than okay and why would they want to silence me we had the I shouldn't say we I would say Joe West had the case in court he wanted to exume John F Kennedy's body and that's what he was fighting for and at this point when I talked to Joe West I explained to him that J F Kennedy had been hit in the head with a Mercury round a special load at this point that plained to him he can use this in the courts to have the body exume because there would still be traces of mercury because the traces of mercury do not disappear they'll always be there and so this is what Joe West wanted to go back with more evidence and use this to get Kennedy's body exed the look for cases of mercury and the court had accepted his case the court had accepted his case but with his death the case died um do you feel like your memory is as good today as it was say 10 years ago no I do not it's not that good a statement uh my memory is of 10 years ago was a lot more alert than what it is now uh it's not that I'm just getting old and scile but it's the conditions of prison the condition that we live under our water here when people come in and I'm sure you would advise not to drink the water from here to buy bottled water but I've been drinking this water for the past 12 years with radium in it so as every prisoner here we wasn't aware of the water situation until Oliver Stone come along to make a movie here and when he made his movie here we see all these people from the movie company running around carrying bottles of water even the officers that worked here they got suspicious that's we started finding out this water is unhealthy just as a side you know sodium fluoride is what they put in even the city's water supply that's what the Nazis put in their water supply and those concentration camps to keep everybody pacified yeah they keep us pretty well pacified they really kept us pacified since we went on about a 10-month lockdown and they took the prison back and run it under their order now and I mean this place is really maximum control now there is no movement here at all to speak of did you actually meet with Oliver Stone I met Oliver Stone three times matter of fact I have a paper that Joe West not excuse me not Joe West but Bob Vernon had Oliver Stone sign now Bob buron come in after the Joe West deal Bob buron took over for Joe West Bob buron met with Oliver Stone and he had him sign an agreement where they wanted to get me on film but I refused to do that I met with Oliver Stone three times and you never told him your story no I did not tell oliv Stone my story I refused to discuss it with him and and uh like I I've got a copy of this I got Oliver Stone signature Bob bernon is the only signature on it it states what it's all about the only thing missing is my signature because I would never sign that paper for the agreement why was that I didn't like the man case closed case closed and if you'd like I'd be more than happy to send you a copy of the document and it's got Oliver Stone's original signature on it and it has Bob bernon signature on it I've got a raft of questions but I'll tell you what let's just go back to and and just let's go in chronology just tell me your own account again you understand what we're really doing here is because the interview you gave Bob Vernon is kind of tied up with all kinds of legal stuff right yes and to help you and Pam we we're redoing this thing so that we can put that aside and move on uh so this is redundant but let's move on go back to when you first learned that there was uh plot to kill Kennedy and then just bring us for into how it all came excuse me the first time that I knew about anything being planned on Kennedy I'd heard a lot of rumors that nobody liked Kennedy they wanted to kill Kennedy they wanted to assassinate him they wanted to do everything to the man were you kind of upset with him yourself or I was upset with them over the Bay of Pigs but I never paid any attention to any of this at first because you know everybody talks somebody gets mad at somebody right away and I'm going to take this guy out I'm going to take that person out woo woo woo woo you know a lot of lot of barking junkyard dogs barking you know but I was sitting in the harlo grill that evening playing the pinball machine not the flipper kind the kind of numbers where you gamble on you put about $10 into the play a game and Charles nicoletti walked in man that I did a lot of work with man that I respected and he walked in the back room where I was at says Jimmy let's go I said I'll be with you in a minute he reached over and told the machine and said let's go now my reply was yes sir Mr Nicolle I knew he wasn't in no mood to wait and hang around he said I want to talk to you I went out I got in this car and we went for a ride and we made it a basic habit not to sit around restaurants talk real discuss anything like that was other people hearing and uh we went for ride and he told me says we're going to do a friend of yours and I said Jesus said what the hell did he do now I thought there was referring to one of my friends in town there he' been robbing the pinball machines and the cigarette machines and he had $1,000 a day heroin habit and he was an all out andout junkie and you know they' beat him up several times and everything else and threatened him but so forth they never went his forced to kill him Chuck laugh at me he say no he says not him he I'm talking about President Kennedy JFK and I looked at him and I said what he says JFK he says your buddy I said well he just busting you know giving me a hard time with he knew JK he knew how much I dislike the man I looked at him and I laughed I said okay fine fine with me you get an arguments there and at this point I still kind of thought you know he just joking with me but then he got real serious about it then we started talking and he told me says uh what I going to want you to do he said I'm going to look around he says we search the area around the town here he says you know everything pretty good he says and uh see what we we're going to do it at what kind of weapons we're going to need and other things like that he says he me he said he was going to bring Johnny roselli in on it right with me and I don't care who we work with you know I like Johnny had no problems with him and uh originally we planed to do it in the Chicago area but certain people didn't like that idea so then we put it off and this is like 6 months before the assassination ever really took place but you were not supposed to be a shooter oh no never I was not a shooter I was uh let's put it this way I like you know the go for I go for this go for that pick this up pick that up run around drive him around when Chuck went somewhere I was always with him and did you ever get when that the Secret Service might have uh found out about the plot in Chicago uh no I didn't get no wind on that at all no I just knew there certain people high up in organized crime they wasn't too happy about the idea of having something like that happen to that magnitude in their backyard because they figured Bobby had really be down there you know they already had their own little private Wars going and uh so we decided Well we take a move it so I had no idea was going to Texas at that point this come to me down the road about when was that well I think I'm going to say probably oh two and a half 3 months maybe before I ever made the trip to Texas that they were were talking about it because they didn't know where he was going to go they were looking for an area to go but then they had heard that he possibly may take this trip to Texas but there was nothing definite and I didn't go to Texas until that had been confirmed and they had several different locations there was New Orleans and I don't know there's other places he was going to but uh when it come down to it I had been told there was places that they had planned to do it other people had been authorized you know stuff like that just different rumors you hear how much credibilities to it I cannot say but when the time come and we knew that was going to be serious and we were going that the Chuck was sending me to Texas that's when I went down on bman Avenue the old Valley place where we made the they made the pinball machines and I had a shed down there place where we uh back room that was all on by the outfit too pinball machines I kept a catch of weapons down there we used to do a lot of work on when I say we I'm referring to Party named wolf man who is now deceased but at that time he was excellent remodify weapons manufacturing loads whatever come down to handguns rifles this guy was a professional atce he could manufacture things in his basement like you wouldn't believe from Silence on down the line he did it he did it all for him so I went down there got the stuff we needed and we had the one car that he just bought already had everything secured in we had secret compartments in it and every car that we had even before the 63 Chevy even in the' 61 for that we had prior to that in the ' 62 we had compartments in the dash where you could reach up on open things up put grenades in there handguns whatever we might need behind the back seat we had gun racks in the cars we had pull off door panels we would snap off you could put them back on we had handguns and stuff in there whatever you might need but we always had a work car ready so what did wolf man do for you uh wolf man when I contacted him after all this went down and this is years later this is when I first met Joe West and Joe West had come here visited me we talked and he asked me said do you think this party called wolf man would talk to me and Joe asked me what his real name was and I told him I said I won't divulge that but I will call him and talk to him so I called him on the phone and I told him I said I'm talking to Joe West from Texas and he want to know who Joe was and I explained all this to him and uh I said Joe would very much like to interview I said I did not give Joe West your name but I told him that you was the one that manufactured the special round you made six rounds for me to take the textes all Mercury loaded he said he wants to talk to you very much will you talk with him and he said uh get back to him he said I'll let you know he said I want to check a few things the following week wolf man was dead how didd he die I believe he had a heart attack I've been in contact with nobody that was affiliated with wolf man since that date tell me about these Mercury loads can you describe them for just a lay person well it was a 22 round and he took the tips out he drilled them out then he inserted uh with an eye drop he put mercury into the end of the round and he resal him with wax this is to make him explode on him impact okay so now you got and describe the car the car with a 63 Chevy T burgundy Chevy andala with the special compartments oh we had yeah we had the special compartment that Dash we had the back seat you could take that off pull the bottom part out then you raise the back up snap it off the little clamps take that out we had the Springs removed in the behind the seat there by it and we had little rack wet in there so we get my weapons in there okay so now you got your weapons you got your loads you got your car how did it come together after that well for just before I left final instructions was Chuck told me said I want you to leave first thing in the morning he says I don't want you driving at night he said I want you on the highway with a lot of traffic during daytime where nobody pays any attention to you let's go back give me a date or approximate date I don't remember the approximate date but I went down like a week before the assassination I want to say I was in uh that isas in the Dallas area 5 days before the assassination took place and what was purp of that the purpose of that was for me to go to Dallas look over the area learn dead end streets railroad crossings time for train crossings they already knew the regular motorcade route that he would be taking and they had already looked that over and they would to see if it's any better places than a lot of people already decided on I'm not the one that chose de Plaza but I was told to look it over very close and look and see if I thought there's any other place better and I did the whole area from the route they had all the way through I had Lee Harvey Oso with me all right go back now so about a week ahead of time I think it was Monday as I recall something I'm not sure okay but you left Chicago just start you left Chicago you went to no I didn't leave on a Monday I left on uh I left either Thursday morning or Friday I don't remember which I know I was in I was in mosqu Texas Saturday morning okay okay that's when Lee Harvey Osa showed up at the motel where I was at I arrived there on a Friday I'm pretty sure it was Friday when I right there did you call anybody when you got to Dallas I made two telephone calls when I got there I called Charles nicoletti told him that I was on the scene and where I was at in case he had to reach me I turned around I made another phone call I called David Atley Phillips I had a number to call the call was put through to David Phillips and he was notified for where I was at but I had not told him in advance that I was going to Dallas Texas and why did you call David at Le pH because he always had to know where I was at because he was my controller for CIA purposes Special Operations or something that might be needed done and you were supposed to stay in contact with him we always stayed in contact we had numbers to call what happened after that he said thank you and uh let it go with that we didn't have any great discussion on the phone I told him where I was at the location and through David Aly Phillips is the only way that Lee Harvey Oswell could have known where I was at but I had called no no one else I made two phone calls where were you staying I was staying at the lamp lighter end right there in mosqu Texas and then the next thing you need Lee Harvey Oswell the following morning Lee Harvey Oswell was there when he knocked on the door I opened the door and I was shocked to see him because I didn't think anybody knew where I was at except for the other two people why is Phillips the only one who could have sent the har because Charles nicoletti had never met Lee Harvey Oswell he didn't know him he did not know him um you said you were shocked to see him but did you know Lee Harvey Oswell I had known Lee Harvey Oswell prior today yes how'd you know him I know him from uh earlier operation that we was on with David Phillips when I was running uh semi-automatic 45 caliber submachine guns down to Clinton Louisiana they were made I think they were manufactured by Knoxville arms they were not the old Thompson they look like a Thompson submachine gun but they were not Thompson they were only semi-automatic and they were very cheaply made and how do you meet did you meet the Lee Harvey OS who I met Lee Harvey Oswell through David Aly Phillips when I got down there he introduced me to Lee was it your understanding that Phillips was also oswal's CIA contact I learned that when I was down there that is the first time he introduced me to Lee Harvey Oswell and he also instructed me that Lee could be trusted and that he was Lee's controller need that as a statement he made it a statement because I wanted to know who he was dealing with and who I was giving weapons to I I need you to make a statement that that I was introduced by Phillips who was my CIA Handler and I was told that he was Lo we didn't we didn't call him handlers back then we call them controllers okay okay Le uh David at Ley Phillips he introduced me to Lee Harvey Oswell and upon doing this he also explained to me that he was Lee Harvey oswal's controller the same as he was mine that he was always in contact with Lee with Lee Harvey Oswell so that's how you know that that's where the word came for oswal to come meet you in D so that is through Common Sense tells me the only one that could have sent Lee Harvey osel to me was David Atley Phillips and when I opened the door and O was there I was kind of shocked to see him because I didn't know that he knew I was there and so I asked Le I says what the hell you doing here cuz I was shocked you know he said I he said I was advised to drive by and spend some time with you and see if I could help you out I said help me out he said yes he says somebody wants me to show you the area and I said okay just come on in he coming in we sat down and we talked and I said IOP be in a few minutes and uh I was young and cocky at that time and I'd just come out of the shower and everything and I was calling my hair so actually I had a camera there said told Le said hey make a couple of pictures while I'm here in Texas and so Oswell made a couple pictures of me and then he said uh let me have the film I get an develop I said no no no I said I get the whole R of film so that was how that was how I got a couple of pictures made that people have recently asked me about but was that whose camera was it yours or my camera your camera yeah but he was going to take the film tournament and get him developed but I said no no didn't want to let that film go I do my own work how did he arrive at the motel he R driving uh Blue Falcon Ford Falcon you remember what year Mel no I don't it wasn't a brand new it was a couple of years old so he could drive yes he could drive when he met me in Clinton Louisiana he drove up and uh I want to say Chet truck it could have been aord I going say pick it was a pickup truck let me put it that way it was an old pickup truck and we put the weapons in the back end of it and pull the tarp down over the weapons what color do you remember what color pick up I believe it was green it was a real I don't know dirty yucky green whatever you want to call it darker green like you know it hadn't been washed in a long time and there's a lot of rust on it that's about the best way to describing so did you and Lee Oswell drive around Dallas son uh we drove around Dallas Lee Harvey osw we drove around Dallas prob up to right before the assassination I did not see Lee Harvey Oswell on the morning of the assassination but prior to that Lee Harvey Lee Harvey Oswell had been with me every day we drove around he showed me different streets different areas he was the one that took me out to the Place Southeast of uh mosqu there next to a big junkyard we went out in the FI he ain't nobody going to bother you out here you know because I want to calibrate the scopes for the not only for the fireball but for other weapons as well and while I was out there firing weapons and ejecting shell casings Lee was picking them up and holding them in his hand I didn't want to leave no casings or nothing behind and I'm busy firing so I Look to Le grab them casings and that's what he dides he picked them the hell on to them we got ready at least I calibrated my scope set things up put the stuff back in the car and we got back in we went riding around and I wanted to know the railroad crossings I want to wait and see what time trains come through uh I want to know if there's any passeng if there was freight trains they stopped track's going to be blocked intersections going to be blocked dead end streets construction work wher every intersection was at uh where all the lights were at how long the lights were they stayed red I want all these little details did anybody U show up or give you any static while you're out there sighting in those weapon no nobody when I was testifying the weapons nobody at all even come out there looked at me and wasn't any housing nobody real close by we're off the main highway there and uh like I say it was just you know nobody come around nobody even cared no back I remember back then we go out on Turtle Creek shoot Turtles and nobody nobody cops nobody showed up how much time were you were you two together during the day uh we was out there test firing we were test firing weapons for approximately oh I'm going to stay 20 30 minutes but during the day we probably spent any more than 5 hours 6 hours together so all that time he could not have been working in the Texas school depository uh he worked in The Book Depository stores what he told me I was never in that place but he had time off to come out and spend time with me and then I would drop him off in the area and he would go somewhere and I guess that's where he went I had never asked him where he went what he done who he saw so that must have be the cover jump okay so it gets to be say Thursday before the assassination how how'd it all come down that Thursday I went on back to the motel I dropped him off that afternoon I went on back out to the motel to uh get some rest and the following morning I had gotten a message that I was supposed to call uh Leo at the uh think was the do doas Cabana and I called over there and answer Leo because Mr nickolle didn't want his name used I knew he'd come in late I didn't know when he' come in I didn't know how he got there but uh when I come in I was told to come over there in park and that uh Johnny roselli would come down he wanted me to drive Johnny roselli to Fort Worth I pull up out front and waited he come down a few minutes sat I pulled up I never went in the hotel never asked for anybody he come down and come outside cuz he knew I was in route and uh I drove from there to for wor Texas with Johnny roselli in the car so that was Mr nicoletti went with you no Mr nicoletti did not go just was up just Johnny roselli went with me to uh Fort Worth did you know Johnny roselli prior to that day I had met Johnny roselli before I'd met him in uh Florida Miami any jobs with him never any jobs with him I had talk with him and around but we never uh we were probably involved in some of the same operations or things but uh with the same people but we never went out and did anything together were you aware that roselli was working with the government in anti-castro yes I was well aware of that he was a statement I was well aware that Johnny roselli was involved in the government actions he was like the license between CIA and organized crime and he was heavily involved in the invasion of Cuba Bay of Pigs chano's Bay whichever you prefer to call it but he was also very tight with Frank Sturgis Frank sturge just headed up the Sao which is the secret army organization what this is all about and they've had so many different Cod names for wanting to kill Castor I wouldn't even I couldn't even name half of them but every time you turned around somebody had a new operation going but I'm sorry did you ever hear hear Mr roselli as called Colonel or did he have any military credentials uh I don't remember what the total name was I know he was called Colonel once in a while I can't remember the name of but I know he was called Colonel but that was uh as far as I know Johnny roselli never held any rank of any kind but like I said he was and Bob T the ca he was a licensed between them what his actual part was I don't know but I know he was heavily involved with him and all through that I think it was Ron yeah ralon that's it colonel Roston that's what they call him Colonel Roston okay so tell us about the trip over to for worth the trip over to Fort Worth well there was I didn't know where we were going to Fort Worth he's told me he had directions and I don't know if he'd ever been there before or not but we went through Fort Worth with I remember they actually was uh we got what I was next really like university University Avenue or University Boulevard was name University that's all I know and I know it was on the south side and then it sit on the west side of that street just a couple blocks off and there was a Pancake House fairly new one did you know it's still there no I didn't know it's still there but still there it's been there long I guess they they made good pancakes I know that true but that's where I had my first Belgium waffle why did you go all the way to Fort and excuse me I got to clarify one thing I didn't have a Belgium waffle that morning I had the Belgium waffle there few years later but that morning when I got there Johnny roselli went there to meet somebody by the name of Jack Ruby I had never knew Jack Ruby nothing about him when I got there and pulled into the parking lot Johnny roselli told me he said let me go in first see where I'm going to sit come in position yourself and he asked me he says are you are you carrying and I said yeah I'm carrying he says good he says when I sit out whereever I'm sitting at he said I don't know what may transpire he said something could go wrong he said but be very alert he said keep he said keep my backside covered he said I won't be in he said I won't be in your line of fire and I said okay I pick a open Field of Fire he says wherever I figure I can handle it I said I'll go sit down I'll come and position myself Johnny braell went in and they had like guess you call it a booth to the table sitting there and know it wasn't boled to the floor or nothing but he sat down in that and I went in shortly right behind him I positioned myself at the counter ordered a cup of coffee was served and sit there and then I sit there and I watched until stocky buil man come in walked over Johnny got up they shook hands they sit down they talked for a couple of minutes I seen him take uh like a half size like a legal envelope but only half that size out of his jacket and he laid pushed across the table to Johnny roselli he got up they shook hands this man left Johnny waited maybe two minutes Johnny looked at me I got up I walked out of the restaurant made sure the are is clear nobody outside in the parking lot I went over got in the car started up I pulled up by the door Johnny roselli walked out got in the car we drove away did you ask him or did you find out in some way what was in the envelope on the way back on the way back to Dallas JN and me was riding down the road he didn't open the envelope right away we got almost I think it's Arlington that's about halfway there I'm I'm saying halfway it could be less one way or the other been a long time for me but uh we was right about Arlington and uh Johnny opened the envelope up started taking stuff out and looking at it excuse me you looking at I'm noticing over I'm watching over while I'm driving and he's got these little black wallets like half side like identification wallets and he open them up and there's identification plates in them and there's badges in them at that point I didn't know what the identification on it was because he sitting looking at it and I'm not going to lead over I'm not going to say give me one of those or anything like that I wait when they want me to know he'll tell me and then he opened up a piece of paper and he unfolded it and there's been a lot of discrepancy over this part now but Johnny roselli said they only made one change in the route of it was a map of D Plaza the M route when he looked at it for D Plaza he said they've only made one alter one change in it he said that's all and I said what's that and he said they're going to go down Elm Street they're going to stop and make a detour and come around this little Street here and he h it up and I kind of glanced over at it but I didn't get a chance to look at it real good at that point but I already had Recon the area so I knew what he was talking about and I know everybody says well the M they had the motorcade in the newspaper weeks and months ahead of time true they did but they didn't have that one change and anybody wants to show somebody a newspaper clipping they better check it real close because the original route they was not coming down Elm Street there on that little detour where they had to slow down had you heard prior to that that the uh when they got to Da Plaza that they would just continue straight on down Main Street was that the idea the original plan was that we'd be shooting at a fast moving Target and nicoletti had no military experience and I already had advised him that he would have to shoot High and the target would be going away from him that he would have to shoot above the head and we were going for a head shot and I told him it's going to be hard for you to get from there and uh we're getting a little bit ahead though before we got into this part yeah let's go back Chuck hadn't got the Dallas that week he only to come in I had seen him that morning I hadn't seen Chuck in person until I went with Johnny roselli to Fort Worth and come back Johnny roselli got out of the car one upstairs Charles nicoletti come down Mr nicoletti got in the car with me and we drove the daily Plaza all right back up half second how did ruelli get to Dallas at that point roselli he mentioned to me Johnny roselli we was on the way to Fort Worth and I asked he said when didd you get in he said I got in this morning he said I got in early this morning he said I hadn't been here a couple hours and uh I how'd you get in and he said he got lucky he caught her ride on the plan is sponsored by the Central Intelligence Agency the CIA how the hell did you manage that one he said I got lucky he's had somebody there I didn't ask no more he didn't elaborate any more than that I didn't dig any deeper than that he didn't mention the board team at that time not at that point okay so we got all that now then when we get back I still don't know that he's there on an abort Mission I have no knowledge of that at this point of the game Johnny roselli got out of the car went back in the hotel I waited maybe 5 to seven minutes for Charles nickolle to come down when he got down Mr nickle got in the car with me and said let's go we took off I says where to you said take me over by the plaza we went over we parked it's drizzling rain we get out we're walking around this is the first time that Johnny that Charles nicoletti has even mentioned to me about an abort team and uh he asked me what he say while we're walking around he asked John Charles nicoletti asked me he says how do you feel about being backup I what do you mean backup he say how would you feel about being backup as a shooter for me I said what happened to Johnny what's with Johnny and he said Johnny's a little bit Paranoid on this he says the ca's call the hit off he said they don't want the hit to go down and I said what' you say ch's exact words were [ __ ] him it's going anyway and uh I thought him I said what about Johnny he well Johnny's Johnny will be with me he says but he's not going to be a shooter he said he doesn't want to go against the orders he said he's been told he flew in here specifically to abort this assassination say he got cold feet uh no uh when we was talking when I asking him about Johnny roselli I said how come Johnny's not going to be a shooter he said well he doesn't want to go against the orders of the CIA he said what he wants to said he wants to call off he said he flew in here is an abort team he said they flew a plane here specially with him on it to tell us to call it off and so I asked him at that point I said uh what' you say he said I said [ __ ] him it's a go he we're going to do it he said Jimmy he says you know we can't call this off only one man can stop it he said he's here if he wants us to stop it he said he'll notify me he said I'm not going on somebody else's word he said as poor as it is right now I have a go he says from the boss he says we're going now who was the one man that could have stopped it there was only one man Charles nicoletti did not say his name at that point he just said the boss I know he's referring to he was referring to Sam G and Conor who was he Sam G and con he was the number two man at that time a lot of people's going to tell you he was number one but not true Tony cardo was still running things he turned things over he had Sam genan Conor running all this operation everything but Tony Ardo was still the man and he was still calling the shots on whatever went down whatever was done so anything get kind of said had to at least have the okay of it had to be sanctioned and it had to come through Tonio cardo we're talking about the Chicago gr we're talking about only Chicago area alone there's a question right there to your knowledge was there involvement of any other crime families Marcelo traffic I knew of no other crime family being involved I heard rumors but do I know if anybody else was involved no I do not know if anybody else is involved okay they would have been out of character for them to even notify me about that or anybody else that only stays up in higher ranks of the family or the people or the crime family whoever you wish to describe it and when things are handed out like different departments different people get different things somebody might be in the bookmaking somebody handles the bookmaking they pass that out to one party this party he distributed amongst the people in the area because everybody's got a little what we call territory at that time and uh somebody else might be in the lawn sharking and then you might have somebody running uh cardi St you might have somebody else running chop shops which eventually I got into which led to my federal prison sentence but when it come down to murder contracts that was a whole new thing then we had somebody else to handle the liquor license but everything was distributed amongst different people and whatever moved including the garbage at that time even the garbage was controlled by the outfit and one party and this can all be confirmed I believe he's still alive he's very old now but his name was Zak Carrol he had the garbage pickup at that time there and he was strictly informed that if he picked up another can of garbage he would be in his next garbage truck going out to the dump they took over his business and then he went into the junkyard business and later on down the road he became involved in a place out in the elrow village his very big place called Globe Auto recers okay so his son's now running so uh once uh Mr nicketti said we're going anyway what happened then that's when he yeah about start about what time this would be approximately 10:30 St yeah this here would be uh approximately 10:30 a.m. Johnny Ro or excuse me about 10:30 a.m. Mr nickol told me he asked me to be the backup shooter and that was the first inkling of anything that I would ever be involved in the assassination itself prior to that I was only know the area and transport weapons was the weather clearing by that time and it started to clear it started clearing about 10:45 I believe the best I can remember I could be off a few minutes I know it been drizzling rain it was cold it was damp Sun didn't come out until oh after 11:00 a.m. I believe but like I said again I could be off a few minutes on it I'm just a long time ago they say the knes go first yeah okay so the weather's clearing it's a battle battle about 10 or so proceed what happened and I told Johnny I said yes I'd be honored I told Mr Niti I said I would be honored to back you on it I said anything you ask you know I'll do and she told me and most of this had already been pre-arranged beyond my knowledge but this plaz had been selected I didn't select it someone else already selected it and he asked me where I thought it would be the best place for him and I told him the dtech building because the dtech building gave him a better shot with him taking the straight run through at a high rate of speed and uh evidently I'm quite certain that they had all this pre-arranged on that part of it is that place at his location and for him and Johnny as far as that goes because they already had made an arrangements to be admitted into the building why do you think he checked that with you why did he oh he didn't check it he just asked my opinion he was always questioned me about different things he used me like a sounding board like maybe you know you're in business or in the office you might ask one of your people around you what do you think about this you don't really care what he thinks you're just asking for an opinion to see what he thinks maybe you overlook something or maybe he somebody's got a better idea than you do it this time of the game could it also be that you had military training and experience when Nichol well that's POS he respected me for my knowledge of weapons my knowledge of uh knowing terrain because i' been Inc combat and the first thing you walk into an area is I me to you it's a landscape to me it's terrain because if I walk in I walk into an ambush I want to know where the low spots are the high spots are for all the coverages I got to know where I can get my rear end down so I don't get any shot off you got to have a place to go to ground in a hurry you cannot afford to stand around and be looking around and wonder gee where can I go from here you you're dead you got to think that's why you take all this training in the military you're trained not to think but to react Mr Neti had never been in the military headed not to my knowledge he had never served a day in the army or any military service as far as that goes where did you serve I was in the Army 82nd Airborne I took my basic at for leonardwood Missouri I took my AIT at Fort poke they screwed up my orders I went to Fort seals and laid there for about a week maybe 10 days from there I went to Fort Brag to go Airborne I won the service and January of 1959 and where were you assigned when I left we left believe was July the 10 we went from there to La we was on an operation called operation Whit star a handful of military advisers were going over to train people and La there to do uh certain operations uh at that time it really wasn't supposed to be any blackback stuff or anything we were just going there to train and equip people and I found a lot of it pretty hilarious as we armed a lot of them we gave them weapons and they all took the stuff and they all ran up north and we had to fight them later but that's how we basically done things all the way through the through the years in history did they call it counterinsurgency at that time oh yeah they call it counterinsurgency uh what I found the most amazing was all was the place called Vietnam just outside of Vietnam not Vietnam don't get it confused this is La up the central part of a place called the plane of jars there's a large well pretty good sized Town back then called Vietnam on the runways most of them were dirt and they had steel matting down on it were planes to land on the Russians use the same runways that we did we drank in the same taverns that the Russians Drank In we shopped at the same stores we knew the Russians they knew us but no we didn't bother each other they trained other people we trained other people it was just a close operation uh was there more than one of these white star teams there were several Whit star teams but they all worked in individual groups and one group would never know what the other group was doing for the specific reason each group was on its own to certain extent but they did not know what the next group was doing in case they were captured tortured killed or whatever they could give nobody up right did you ever hear the name Colonel Fletcher prowdy yes I did Colonel Fletcher prowdy he was The Man In Charge Excellent Man excellent Warrior Soldier good leader you knew it I knew Colonel Fletcher proudy personally yes Mr nicle asked me said if you if you back me up Jimmy he says uh where do you think it'd be the best spot for you I said well the spot I like best is up on the grass you know behind that stockade fence he says why there I said I got the radwood yard for cover I said my clothes I can turn my jacket inside out I said it's plaid on the inside it looks like uh railroad workers somebody out there wearing a flannel shirt it's nobody's going to pay no attention to me I said I can go over there I can walk around a piece of chalk walk up and down my box cars cross the railroad track tracks look at things i' just be another worker nobody even look at me and he said okay he says uh what weapon do you what weapon you're going to use over there and I told him and he Chuck I said well what's the situation Chuck said you know we're going for a head shot now I said this I understand I realized this he said you're not going to fire unless it becomes a necessity he says if I miss he said then it's going to be up to you he said but you don't fire he said unless I miss he said it's going to be your call at that point he said so you got to you got to be very alert on this and I told him don't worry about me I said I got it boss and uh he said what are you going to use said I'm going to use the Fireball and he looked at me he says why why the fireball now the fireball for people don't know what a fireball is it's like a cut down rifle it's actually basically this long weapon was well ahead of its time this was one of the prototypes that the agency had got a hold of that had been manufactured by Remington now a lot of people are going to tell you that this particular weapon was not a available at that time but this weapon was available it didn't go on sale till a few years later but this weapon had been manufactured as early as 1961 we had a lot of trouble the barrel blowing up on it used to big round on it or something overloads in it a lot of problems with it but they finally reinforced the barrel we got it where to work pretty good and uh Chuck asked me he says why the fireball you've only got one shot cuz the Remington Fireball 222 was a single shot bow action pistol and you can mount a scope on it well if I'm going to wait until you're through I said I'm only going to get one shot anyway it don't really matter I said cuz I'll never get a chance for a second shot by waiting till the last possible moment he said okay he said it's your call where did you get hold of a prototype weapon like the XP 100 it was given to me by David Phillips I'd received this maybe a year prior eight months year prior to the assassination the gun had been used twice before on assassination but nobody like a president or nothing but it was good for using you want to get into a close Place area somewhere uh somebody might say well why use a pistol well anybody that knows their weapons this particular piece of sub is very accurate very accurate up to 100 yards at 100 ft I'm talking about we're shooting now from the grassy null down to the highway to the street there we're talking roughly 30 35 yards we're only talking 100 ft this is like shooting fish in a barrel and especially a little three power scope on it but the weapon had been used before but you could put in a briefcase you could walk anywhere with it nobody pay any attention to it uh the case that I had set up I had a little loading press inside for it in case I had to manufacture anything I had a little holder for all the special rounds that were running everything was packed in foam rubber inside uh the case was watertight waterproof uh what the case look like the case was black it was like an oversized briefcase basically speaking and uh on that side leather on the outside and uh handl on a little metal flaps on it you know if you're locking it up you could lock the case but uh I wasn't concerned about locking it but the thing is you could take it you could go anywhere you look like a businessman with it and uh I thought that was the best weapon to go with and so Mr nicketti agreed with me on it he said okay your call Jimmy and uh that's what we agreed on so then like I say the D tech building that had to been previously arranged with them because they already had made arrangements to get the people in there so the dtech could not have been a last minute decision as boy that goes like me saying okay I think the D tech building he just used me as a sounding board you say had rrange to get you in the D I mean that was an office building anybody could walk in and out you're talking about getting into a specific getting into Pacific office into Pacific area somebody stat uh reason they needed somebody there to get them inside anybody could walk in and out but the sole purpose of having a connection there somebody that could get you into a place into an office where you could open a door and you could have a window to shoot from if you don't have an opening don't do you no good to get in the building you've got to be able to get into somebody's office office is not being used nobody around otherwise the door would be locked you'd have no way in you had to know which office that was no I do not know which office it was uh what did you do what did I do uh we rode around there we walked around the plaza for a little bit and I took him back over I dropped Mr nicketti back off at the dollas Cabana and he got with Johnny they therefore went back over there I told him where the car would be pulling alongside the building there in parked uh he told me that they would come out of the building they would get in that car now then I did not drop Charles nicoletti or Johnny roselli off at the dtech building they got into the building they were there on their own I told them where the car would be it's his car he knows his car he knows what my job is they'll be in the car he'll be in the front seat Johnny will be in the back seat I'll get under the the driver's wheel I'll set my briefcase between the front and the back seat we'll drive away where did you drop them off when we pulled out from the side the building there I went I made a riding turn on to Houston I believe that would be going north I'm not sure now on my Direction but I made it right on Houston went up Houston to a major intersection about four or five blocks maybe six blocks whatever it was then I took a leftand turn I went down close to the freeway there and there's a gas station there I want to say Texico but it could have been something else might have even been a mobile I'm not sure now but they had a car there this is where they told me stop this is where he told me he would be getting out at you know he go down here we want we got a car waiting for us and I drove down there they opened the door they got out uh they started walking across the parking lot now this is before this is after the assassination this is after the assassination before you said you didn't let them off at the D I took uh Charles nicoletti back to the Dallas Cabana to meet with Johnny roselli okay after you walk around after we walked around D Plaza there's still another hour to go probably before the assassination going to go down make that a statement after we walked around for about an hour I took after we walked around the uh Del Plaza I took Mr nicoletti back to the hotel let him out of the vehicle he went up and got with Johnny roselli I took the car back to here where it's supposed to be make arrangements and he asked me what if you can't get a parking space there I told him don't worry I'll have a parking space I have to steal a car and move it out of there I said will be parked there just look for the car and if this point he told me we come out he said I want the car close so I can get in it right away he'd be carrying a a rifle underneath his top coat like his jacket his top coat and he would come out of there and secure that in the trunk he'd put it in the trunk he had to keep with the trunk he'd put that in the trunk close the trunk Johnny get in the back Johnny roselli get in the back seat he'd get in the passenger site I'd come walking up I'd get under the get under the driver's site I'd enter my attache cas case whatever you want to call it gun case in between the front and the back seat I'd get in start the car we drive away I'd make a ride on Houston I'd go down Houston uh several blocks there I forget the intersection make a leftand turn go down by the gas station just before you get by that freeway there and that'd be the Simmons Freeway at that area and they got out of the car they had a car waiting there which car it was I don't know never watched them walk across the parking lot to it as soon as they got out out the door closed put it in G and I drove away I went back to mosqu Texas okay again though that was after all the shooting that was after all the shooting after I took Charles nicoletti back to the hotel I went back to the plaza secured the car got my briefcase out with a gun with a fireball in it I went into the railroad yard I secured that over there put it away so nobody see it revers my jacket inside out I had taken my hat great door like and my jacket was a great poplin we had these uh car jackets back back then they were like waist length not a short jacket but they kind of come down a little bit it's an no car jacket like made out of a material that they no longer use it was called poplin you might remember that material the poplin material grayish color had a shine to it excuse me that's what the jacket was like that I was wearing a pair of gray pants with it and uh I reversed a jacket and it had the uh offset plaids in it like you know kind of like checker on the inside and I turned it over it looked like one of the old gray flannel shirts that we used to wear out you know when you was doing work in the yard or something another excuse me and uh I walked around the road wood yarden I was waiting for the time to pass time was coming on and when I heard the RO of the crowd i' been over by the fence and I got there a little bit a few minutes early I'd reach down I'd takeing a scope off the weapon and I look up and I'd look over the fence and I would looking for people what I was looking for was not to see who I knew but I was looking for people that would be carrying a bulge like up under their arm I'm looking for somebody with a weapon this way I have an idea for security people I'm looking for security people cops undercover security off duty whoever might be carrying a weapon bulge along their hip behind their back like I say under the arm and a shoulder holster I'm looking for the little bulges most people don't pay no attention to that but this is what I'm looking for but then I my amazement I recognized several people out of the past that were in Daily Plaza did I go talk to him no but I recognized him and seen him there who was that I remember Al Vera remember seeing him there uh a lot of people say Jack Ruby was never there but he was there before the motor kid got there I know that for a fact and even though I Didn't Know Jack Ruby but I was as close to him as I was to you in the coffee shop but I never spoke to him I was never introduced to him never said a word to Jack Ruby but I was that close I'm looking at the backs side of him and I'm pretty sure that was him uh Diz was there I believe his name was Tony Tony Di is what I KN him as uh Richard kanaine he was on scene he was in the crowd he had been there early he was leaving he was walking like away uh Philip alzo I know he was there that day where he went I have no idea but there are several people I saw how about Frank Sturgis Frank Sturgis he was there how did you know Frank stures I know Frank Sturgis from the Bay of Pigs and from the Sao I also knew Orlando BOS he was on scene Orlando bash I don't know if you're familiar with his name or not but he was also president uh and there's a few other faces I recognized I just don't remember the names for them cuz it's so long ago how do you figure all those people were in DB plant you know I couldn't figure that one out myself but it's like anything else it's like everybody they they know something's going to happen maybe they know a building's going on fire something you know you got a building burning and may collapse everybody runs to see the fire they should be going the other way about the only time I've ever seen a lot of confusion was where people were trying to get away like if there's the racetracker in a crowded place and somebody yell gun everybody broke and stamp eeden and uh we had a few people out the racet track get hurt that way they're out of Maywood Park they got hurt in a stampede like that but uh basically speaking if somebody knows something's going to happen they have a teny to go see it most people are curious you know you ever drive down the highway you see a wreck you're probably guilty of it you slow the car down look out the window everybody does it so a lot of people come there for that reason probably because they had heard these rumors and stuff that he was going to be assassin in Dallas that was no secret even the National Security Agency knew that what about Eugene Braden Eugene bradden he was there that day he was the uh Eugene Bren was there for a specific reason he had the contacts inside the dtech building and he was the one that Charles nicoletti and Johnny roselli needed to get him into a private office somewhere another I have no idea where that office was I was never in the dtech building myself I can't even describe anything in there so you probably stood behind that fence there for some little time only for I stayed away from the fence I stayed basically in the yard walk over the fence look over it zo minut then walk back away again but I was observing the area were you a smoker at the time oh yes I did smoke were you smoking cigarettes that morning I had smoken that day careless I probably stepped on several cigarette butts and left in there most of them P all was it muddy back there it was very muddy let me put it this way I a couple times even took my shoes them up on the little concrete ledge here and scrape the mud off the bottom of them what clothes Frank stur wear wearing uh I don't remember exactly the clothes I remember he had on like a bummer jacket remember the World War II bummer jackets a pilot used to wear he was wearing one like that like that like the one you got right there this had the brass buttons on it remember that you can see that flashing you know and which which location of these blaz was he standing approximately uh I was where you got the concrete steps to go down by the pagola there and between the pagola and The Stockade Fence you got a set of concrete steps to go down I was to the right of those draw me a map I got to put my glasses on for that you got with yeah but I don't want to sit here draw it it's going to take too much time up okay but uh he is to the left and just off of the sidewalk he was standing in the grass itself and this was shortly before the assassination or uh this was just a few minutes before the motor kid got there but like I say before the motor kid ever arrived on singing I took the scope off I didn't have the gun up over the fence I didn't want nobody to panic at that point but I had a little scope up my hand I could look over the fence and I could kind of check to see who was I was looking like I said I was looking for security people you know for somebody carrying somebody packing cuz I want to know who's got weapons when I go to leave there that fence kind of makes an L shape you know long it's long AA it's short are but it's not exactly an L it's on a slam 45 like 4 uh I was I almost say 8 to 10 ft down there there was a tree branch that hung right over me I was that kind of give me a little camouflage okay uh did you ever see an ambulance come by no I never pay no attention I wasn't watching the vehicles that passed by I'm looking at people I never noticed ambulance you didn't see an ambulance with red lights no I heard might have heard a siren I don't remember I had all that tuned out I'm in another complete mode Sirens lights flashing Amal police that don't bother me I'm not there to look for those things I'm there looking for other details for other things okay so then what happened the motor cave came uh I'm checking and everything I got most everybody and just basically where the a lot of different people are standing at and I want to make sure that there's like I say I don't have any cops right next to me because you know something happens and I have to shoot you know I don't have to shoot anybody else unless it becomes a necessity so I walk away the fence and I come back over secured everything got it ready I could hear the rumble the people murmuring so you know the motor Key's approaching so then I got ready opened it up I'm holding the uh Remington Fireball down below the fence at this point motor key come down I believe that's main suit there come down on Houston turn back around on the El there come down that little side drive there oh when it come down and made his first right that's and I brought the weapon up and then I'm over the fence and as they come down made the turn on down there that's when I started focusing through the scope and following the car as shots started ringing out I started counting the shots but I'm not counting like one two three and four I'm counting them miss miss miss because I know we're going for the head shot so I don't care how many rounds are being fired as long as we get a head shot but I'm hearing the shots being fired I'm counting them as a Miss as a miss miss and uh that's the only thing I'm concerned about I've got this sign there for the Simmons Freeway that is fixing to come into my field of fire as far as I can see at this point president has not been hit in the head at this time I've seen the body Lurch I know he's been hit I serious I don't know but my last instructions was we're going for head shot if you have to take a shot take it but don't fire unless it's the necessity unless you really have to he said Jimmy don't fire unless you have to we want everything from the back side I'm not asking why okay whatever you say at this point as it starts to approach and come behind that freeway sign and I already been instructed not to hit anybody but Kennedy because they didn't want Jackie getting hurt or anybody else I'm fixing to lose my field of fire and at this point either I shoot or I can put it in the suitcase and leave one or the other I took the shot I fired one shot one shot only and where were you aiming I was aiming for his right eye which to me is the left side of his head looking head on but for him it would be his right eye and once I pull the trigger I'm right in on it and it's almost like looking six feet away through the scope as I squeezed take off my round his head moved forward I missed and I come in right along the temple just right behind the eye here or in the hairline no I well I'm going to I'm not sure because I you know I can't see the penetration I know hit him right here I know I hit behind the eye somewhere within a half inch diameter right there say but uh shs almost simultaneously you think you got hit as you were screaming what I believe is this and I was I got my readings with Marksman I'm good shooter always was I'm not bragging on myself stuff don't get me wrong but that's what got me my start with David Phillips because of something that I did in the service and I made a mark there and it's on record and it's recorded for head shots for what I did and the things that I did but anyway make a long story short as I preparing to squeeze off my round Kennedy's had moved forward just as I squeezed it's already in process the heads third and forth to me what I believe is and I did not see Let Me Clear the fact now I never saw Mr nicoletti shoot Kennedy but I know he was the man in the dtech building the man supposed to be doing the shooting therefore before the head started forward as far as I'm concerned Mr nickolle hit him at that point as I squeezed off my round the head started forward I hit him and blew the head backwards so the Exit Wounds where in the rear uh I didn't hit the rear the exit blew out and you can see Jackie where where was the exit on right side or left side uh partially most of it on his right side I guess back there where the section come right out part of the back of the skull you know I didn't go look at it I didn't examine it and a lot of people may find this hard to believe but I have never read anything on the Kennedy assassination cuz I was never interested in it I did not like John F Kennedy uh did you ever see ulc pictures did I ever say what the ultimacy pictures uh they sent me a book with I looked at a few of them but I didn't read the book I want to say the book they sent me was probably called high treason I never read it I looked at a few of the pictures I just wasn't interested can I show you a picture and ask you for your command M where is you're going to make me put my glasses on yeah that's one what do you think of that picture that's the back of Ken's head from what I'm looking at here looks like part of the flap on the side is missing but I don't see very much in this picture here the back of the head missing what I'm looking at here is a lot of hair so what's your conclusion what's my conclusion that ain't the right picture okay thank you that's my conclusion you want my opinion on it that's not the right picture the the photo that I just looked at my opinion that's a fake picture that is not the real picture a lot of people might say you can't see nothing through a scope but I'm going to tell you something when you see something burst his head like a watermelon you're going to see pieces of stuff flying different directions and people are going to be splattered by it at this point I got to figure what she's going to be pick up a piece of his schull a lot of people say you can't see nothing through a scope like this but what you're going to see is like and I saw it the head explode I saw the backside come out I seen what brain or whatever you want to call it tissue hair a whole thing going everywhere just to spray and if anybody dis pleas just go out and shoot somebody and look through a scope while you're doing it watch look at this and one other thing i' like did you see anybody splattered with blood I don't know who splattered I think one of the agents probably one of the Secret Service just riding on the back of the car I'm only assuming that I would say they probably got splattered because there was stuff everywhere but one of the other things I want to point out about scrimming in 222 Fireball it's a high velocity pistol the M the round travels approximately 3180 ft per second now then for this type of weapon there is very little recoil now a lot of people say there's a lot of recoil it's going to jump you can't see nothing and I've had a lot of criticism over the years over this here so I'd like for somebody to go out the firing range somewhere gun store and take one of these particular particular types of weapons that carry a 222 round and fact you're going to find very little recoil especially when you're using an extended barrel weapon with the scope on it you got the weight to hold it down it's not jumping at bouncing you're not shooting a 44 or 45 we have verified all that okay but uh okay so uh did the motorcade ever come to a stop the motor uh motorcade the best of my recol to me and my mind and everything is slowed down at this point when they hit when the first shot went off it's like it stopped it's just like it slowed down almost to crawler barely moving or maybe it even stopped I'm not really sure on that point I know I was waiting to it kept moving it had to have been moving but very very slow cuz I'm waiting for it to get up the sign I'm waiting for something to happen so I don't have to shoot not that I'm afraid to but if I don't have to I don't want to but like I say when the car got even almost up to that Simmons Freeway sign there that was one of the most ain't like these new ones they got today with nice little skinny metal post and a little sign these here had you know made it I guess the wooden uh legs on or what you want to call it the post of H it was wood anyway though I had my shot it's either I shoot now right don't I took my shot did you ever notice if any of those rounds hit that sign no I I don't know if anybody else has did or not as far as I know their rounds never hit it I know my round didn't hit it like I say I fired one shot I was on target no I'm watching One Thing through that scope I'm watching one thing I'm watching President jnf Kennedy so if a bullet hit the sign you probably wouldn't have seen it any I didn't even know Conley was hit at that point of the game were you nervous in any way was I nervous no if I had have been nervous I'd have been shaken I couldn't have made the shot okay a lot of people may find this hard to believe but you've got to understand something first time you go into the field of fire when you go into a fir fight in combat you might be nervous or skimmish but after you've been initiated into the field of fire whatever you want to call it combat firefights a lot of people got different names for it skirmishes you could you get you get over it you know and to me a lot of people really going to think I'm probably sick but when you got into a firefight that was element High I've never used drugs in my life a firefight to me being in the Ser that was one of the greatest things there was it was the ultimate high and at this point when you're stalking down somebody and this particularly they stopped me from hunting animals altogether I used to when I was young I used to love to go shoot deer rabbit squirrel whatever I could get vant but after you went into the jungles and you've hunted man and you stalked the man down and you've hunted a man down on equal terms where he can kill you you have no desire to go shoot a defenseless animal I become the where I loved animals much more than that I couldn't kill any you when my dog had to be put to sleep my wife and one on my top rightand men had to take the dog to the vet cuz I didn't have the heart to do it were there any while you were up behind that fence mostly before the shooting started were there was there anyone in your vicinity uh there was nobody behind that stocke fence but me at that point nobody all the time I was there I was alone but in front of the fence the two part two people that I was mostly concerned about was a couple of guys wearing suits they were up there on top of the grass you know there and they were a little ways in front maybe 15 20 ft away whatever you know I did not know who they were in front of the fence would be the railroad they were yard yeah but the stocky fence no the stocky fence between the fence and the road they're between the fence and the sidewalk between me and the motor Cade they're on top they're at the top of the null there they're kind of like looking over everybody and watching people and this had me a little bit concerned cuz I don't know who they are at this stage of the game well I'm going to take my shot I got the 45 ready if I got two like I say I don't want to shoot nobody unless I have to at this point and I've checked them the shoulder holsters the backside I saw no bulges as far as I knew they wasn't packing so I figure maybe they're just a couple of businessmen this you know people want to see see the president go by a lot of people are strange that way everybody wants to go see celebrities go by but uh I took the shot and as I was walking away and like I I seen Jackie crawl out there motorcycle cop he threw his bike down he jumped off and as he come running in a little zigzag or whatever you going to call like he's really into combat or something they's still a wide open Target anybody can shoot him he's got his pistol out and uh he's running up the there the two men that Defence there seen two guys in the suits they go over and they open up identifications so I have to figure these are probably my covery that I've never been informed about and I was told not to worry they stopped him and he never came no further he went back down off the nle you were told not to worry I was told Charles n lady told me said when you take the shot he just walk away he told me don't run he said uh just walk away natural Jimmy he said don't don't don't draw no attention I told him I said don't worry and I had no intention to breaking out of their running but uh like I say if somebody comes at me I'm willing to do whatever I have to do to leave the area that shoots somebody else that's what I'll do at this point of the game said 10 15 ft or so down from the corner towards the railroad eight or 10 ft on there yeah from the end for the we close halfway between in the halfway mark of that fence uh no I wasn't in the middle of the fence you got your left angle that comes you got about a 45 degree angle for the short part of the fence yeah then I'm down maybe 10 ft from there okay there's a tree branch one branch come right down up the tree there it covered it halfway points on down to halfway is a little more down to my right okay that would have been halfway down did you ever notice a a a GI guy in a khaki uniform no I did not okay uh did you notice people on the railroad bridge I know there's people up there but I didn't pay attention to them they didn't have a good view of you anyway cuz you were under cover I'm under I'm pretty well Undercover the only time people could see me from the vioc or from the railroad Gage when I was walking down the tracks next to some of the box cars did you recall it nobody was with you behind the fence I said before like there was nobody behind the stocking fence with me I am the only person back there anybody else back there is over in the railroad yard by the trains how about down by that corner down there did you have a clear view there's a lot of cars back there right yeah did you have a Clear View could somebody have been down around by that corner and you might not have seen uh they could have been down there a couple of cars drove through while I was there but who they were and what kind they were I don't even remember cuz I just wrote it off as long as nobody got out nobody come by me there no concern but shortly before there was no uh right before the assassination there was nobody standing next to me how about three minutes before the assassination you done not by me I was alone back there okay I had no other party standing by me somebody was there in the yard or down at the other end you know 30 40 ft away that has no bearing to me cuz I paid them no attention well there's this eyewitness report of the guy in the railroad to Tower well he might have been the tower but I'm talking about people on the ground walking up by me or passing me or no but he's describing two persons behind the f one fits your description MH well maybe he's figuring two people when he SE me change my jacket and walk away somebody different I don't know but I was alone and there was nobody with me okay all right so uh after you walk away and these two guys cover for you describe your actions then oh as I'm walking away I've got my briefcase gun case on my right hand I've got my left hand over by my co- pocket I got a quote 45 there I've got it full loaded with six rounds on it it's ready to go if I need it when you reversed your jacket I've already reversed my jacket when I picked up the gun keys I reversed my jacket no plaid side I got the popping gray material on the outside I took the Fedor I had shoved down in the sleeve of it snapped it out put it back on my head and I walked away during the briefcase my 45 side in my coat pocket how long did it take to do just a few seconds don't take long is that any chance that that's you walking along right there I had to blow up for you blow oh the blow Up's even worse it's just a block this would be probably 15 30 seconds looking at that I couldn't say it's me but I'm saying you can see somebody there basically speaking it could have been is that the direction you took walk back towards the deposit going in that direction and there was nobody around you at that even at that point at that point there's nobody around me I'm not going to let nobody get close to me at that point because like I say somebody might try to grab me they might want to pull a gun on me I'm looking at people uh somebody turns around if they make the wrong move if I see somebody pulling a weapon they're going to be shot if I see somebody uh okay this is a there's a little retaining wall and right on the other side of it it's a sidewalk and then there's like a little uh I don't know little garden patch little Little Flower Garden thing and then that road the little road that runs in front of the depository right that's the one that comes with the dead end down here yeah yeah that's the one and that's right where you were walking that's right where I Wasing you on the south side or the North Side that's I don't remember don't remember okay all I remember is I'm walking and I'm watching over my shoulder I'm trying to see if anybody's coming at me you have a morning picture there yeah that L I think it is yeah now we might as well look at this right here is that the tree you're talking about yep you can see the branches from back over here coming right down over the wall and that's the vicinity where you were standing right there mhm do you remember which side of the tree you were on was it to your left or your right I could be mistaken I believe that now the tree was to my right had to be to the right tree was to my right CU I didn't want to have the tree in way of my left that's correct or you can't see the sign here but the sign is right on down here did you ever notice those people uh there was people out there I remember more people on that being around I don't know where they all disappeared to but uh I remember people falling down laying down jumping down whatever you want to call it people moving to get out of the way going in other directions stand some standing around pointing and uh who they were what they were wearing I couldn't even start to tell you what about what about these two guys right here you notice them or does any of those look familiar do any of those look like some of those guys you saw that you recognized uh they could have been it's hard to tell it's hard to tell from this year but like I say when the motor Cy come I wasn't looking at nobody else I don't know where everybody went I didn't really care by the time motorcade got there the sun was out it pretty bright it almost warm right yeah it was nice out it was nice yeah came be noce anybody with an umbrella uh I remember somebody down passed me to the right towards the vioc they had an umbrella but what they were doing I don't know I've heard the theories of the umbrella man shooting somebody with an umbrella but you don't believe that I don't believe that not for one minute why not why not it' be kind of silly for somebody to take an umbrella where you can't even aim it all you can do is point it and you're still going to be shooting at a moving Target and it had to be a very small caliber because they didn't come in big calibers and they were used basically for uh in-house operations and you're right on top of the target when you use it in 1963 the agency which I'm referring to the CIA they had weapons basically based on umbrellas like you could use it walking cane some of them carried a small caliber round you couldn't put a big caliber in there to me the weapon was strictly an in-house weapon where you had to be right on top of the target there's no way you can stand out on a sidewalk and take an umbrella and point it and hit a moving Target without aiming I mean this is a lot of fantasy here I thought the umbrellas when they come out with them they had the little darts in them they had the poison on the end of them where you could jab a guy going downstairs or in a house or in a room any place where there's a lot of people moving and muling around together uh you could walk up with somebody you could shoot bar small 22 caliber rounding to them but uh as for as for somebody using an umbrella on the sidewalk and fting around no this that's a lot of fantasy where you parked the sh the chevolet on Houston Street I'm not sure houon right next to the DTE building there whichever street that would be no Houston Houston Street's the one that going up and down hou Street's the one that runs in the scub depositor is over here and d buildings over here right uh did you park on that street I parked on the street right next to it yeah was it a headend parking or was it a parking lot or did you straight in well we going to call it parking space parking lot uh parking a what we going to call the place cars were parked there a row of cars rail of cars row of cars kind of back to and I backed it in I parked it so he could have access to the trunk so you're backed in so you the front end well no the front pointing forward yeah forward towards stre MH and when and I'm getting ahead here B but when you left you turned right when I come out of there I made a right hand turn on the Houston on Houston on Houston on yeah going north okay all right so that's where you parked it that's where I parked the car now so as you walked past did you just walk straight to the car I went straight to the car I didn't bother pay no attention to nobody I went right to the car what was going on around me I don't know I can't tell you what passed me I can't tell you who's looking at me and I can't tell you how many people was around I had one thing on my mind anybody that approaching me with the determination to stop me to question me detain me whatever you want to call it or anything else all I want to do now is reach my destination which is the car put the case in the back seat there on the floor like I chug me already have figured out I'm going to get in car started up drive away was the car empty when you got there no sir when I got to the car Charles nicketti was in the front seat Johnny roselli was in the back seat and there's only two seats in the front we had to bucket seats inent it so as soon as you got in the car you just start up soon as I got in the car open the door set the case in the back behind the front seat got right in the car with the ignition gone anybody say anything at that point nobody said nothing to me at that point we pull out and as we went down the street heading for the intersection the only thing that was said to me was Mr [ __ ] asked me he saids Jimmy don't you think you overreacted I said what do you mean he said you think you fired too fast and I told him I said I fix to lose my f of fire either I shoot the I put it in the brief put it in my gun case and I I leave I said I had one choice I said at this point you told me we're going for a head shot there's been no head shot I said I'm just following my orders I said I didn't want to explain to you you why I didn't shoot did he say anything to that that was the end of it he told me he says this intersection he says make a up and pull up at the gas station we get down there he says we're getting out we're getting another car there and I said okay I pulled out parked they got out of the car he said I see in Chicago and that was the only thing that was said did you take that as criticism I took it as criticism naturally did he criticize you very often no the only thing was he asked me thought if I thought I over re acted you told him no and he accepted he accepted it the motor key is coming down I've got my Target in the scope my primary target is lined up and I'm waiting and like I said we're going for a head shot I don't want to faress I have to at this point I'm fixing to lose my fueld of fire I took my shot when I took my shot I KN back down to the briefcase I ejected the one casing in there I picked up another live round put it in and closed the bowl on it I took this showell casing is come out to the briefcase I put it in my mouth tasted the uh sulfur from it love to taste of sulfur by the way closed the briefcase up and as I stood up I did something I shouldn't have done but I did do it I took the shell casing I bit down on it I took it out and I looked at it and I set it on the stocky fence and there was an indentation from my teeth on the shell casing on the ridge by the orice and I left it sitting on the stock e fence there and I walked away well you got to understand when you're young you're cocky everything is uh indestructible to you you know nothing can go wrong and you got to be a strong believer in all that I mean you know you're infallible and I did that because we had did a few other jobs and we did some I might put a quarter on the forehead and we put him in the ground you know we might bury him somewhere lay a quarter on the head too bit Gambler uh might put a diamond and nickel in each eye so I got Nickel in one eye dime in the other one you know nickel and dime Thief would you say say that was kind of your calling card uh more you might say that Chu Mr nickle would laugh at me when I do things like that and hey you know we got to let them know what they got here for you know to me it was a symbol you say calling card trait whatever you want to do he used to laugh at me over he told me Jimmy just you do the job you do it and forget about it would Mr nicketti have been okay with you doing this Plaza oh if he would have known I did that in the daily Plaza right now he probably turning over and his great for me doing something that's stupid right but uh Mr nicle criticized me one other time matter of fact one time I won't get into the details but we had somebody in the trunk and I stopped and bought a canary cuz this guy was a real snitch and I wanted I come out of the diamer with the canary I broke his neck cuz I wanted to leave the canary in the guy's mouth and he gave me firm instructions don't you ever do anything like that again when we've got something in the trunk really you know it's highly uncalled for in reality Jimmy I'm sure you're aware that they have found two 2222 shell casings I've heard that I've heard that have you got any speculation any idea where a second 222 showcasing I have no idea whatsoever I fired one shot one shot only I ejected the shell casing mine was it Remington cartridge manufactured prior to 1963 I bit it I set it on the stocky fence I had no empty shell casings for a 222 with me at all this shell casing by the way was found uh not in the exact spot where you left a little bit F or at the other side of the fence well I look at it this way whoever was searching somebody up the looking anybody could have looked at it they could have thrown it over there somebody could have stepped on it maybe somebody didn't want it found who knows they didn't want to carry anything away from there in case they got stopped maybe they just stepped on it bu in the ground I don't really know I know where I put it that's all I know the guns that you brought to Dallas was it was the Fireball the only Fireball no sir it wasn't you had another Fireball no I only had one Fireball but I had a couple of rifles in the car I had a shotgun in the car I had a couple of other handguns I brought down probably half a dozen different weapons well my question though is that was the only 222 that was the only 222 round like I said I had a total of six rounds okay I got six rounds for the Remington Fireball I have no empty casings there the other casings that I brought down with that had six special loads but the rounds that I fired were standard rounds and I had no empty casings with me those were disposed about by mosqu I didn't leave them where I test fire and I picked them up and got rid of them later made sure they couldn't be found I didn't want anybody to match anything up to the weapon but with the fireball there's no way they're going to match a ballistics for the simple reason the shell fragmentat but you've still got the firing pin that's going to strike the primer on the end of the showc casing so and a lot of times if you've got a weapon where you can match ballistics on you want to melt the barrel down if you've used it and uh some kind of a job like that or whatever like you know local hit or something also you want to take out the pend of firing pen because you don't want that discovered either to match up with the primer because they can match yes they can do you have any idea about the pul ability of other head teams in plaz that they they've uh I've heard different stories about different teams there different people shooting this and that to my knowledge to my knowledge only I never knew of another hit team that was in the area for Kennedy that day if there's another team there I have no knowledge of it whatsoever anything is possible anything's possible it could have been another team there but what I'm stating is this as far as I know from what I was involved in Charles nicoletti Johnny roselli was with him because Johnny roselli was like his Lookout whatever pick up any sh casing that he injects from the rifle we don't want to leave shell casings on the floor Mr nicoletti didn't want to be running around I'm looking behind Cher the Des where's the casing where's the casing you got some of there picking them up as they come out and uh like I say I never saw Charles nicketti pull the trigger but he was the shooter from what I understand with him you saw Richard King there could could he have been a shoo Richard Kane he was on location and so was uh G the name of Milwaukee Phil his name is Philip Alero leing say Alo but if there was another hit team cuz they fade from the scene I don't honestly know I can't say yes I can't say no do you think Lee Harvey Oswell fired any shots that day Lee Harve Al will never fir a shot and if anybody knows what a parent test does and we have actual court documents on where Lee Harvey Oswell was given a parent test by the Dallas Police Department and on this document it plainly states deceased JD tippet deceased John F Kennedy suspect Lee Harvey Oswell and they took a parent test his face his hand his arm I guess the side of his neck and the only trace of any nitrous from Powder Burns or powder sufficient was in the palm of his hand and anybody that goes to a firing range of farest weapon knows if you fire a 38 revolver or any type of revolver the blow by is going to come back across this part of your hand and your wrist the only reason he had those nitrous in the palm of his hand as he was holding Spence shell casings when I calibrated the scope there were still traces of that but Lee Harvey ell it's like they say that's a court document and I don't believe anybody riged that one up so you left Mr nicketti and roselli off this gas station where they had a car do you remember what that kind of car it was I don't know I'm not even sure which one it was there was a car there I mean they said they had a car there but there's several cars parked up on the side I did not wait I did not watch I'm walk across the lot as I pull out from the intersection I made a left hand turn at the intersection I went down by the gas station when I pull up at the gas station to let them out of the car let them out of the Chevy I'm in and I'm in 63 Chevy burgundy Chevy we'll get that fact straight not a red one it's just burgundy that's the color of the car they open the door they exited as Mr nicketti exited the car just as he closed the door he said Jimmy I'll sing in Chicago told him okay boss he closed the door they walked across and St like to go into the park into the gas station there there's several cars parked over there I have no idea had no knowledge which particular car they went to I did not wait to see I pulled out made right went on down got up on the highway I went back to mosqu I went back to my motel I don't want to be riding around with a Carlo of weapons and somebody just been hit be highly unpractical I went back to the hotel pulled in I parked my car right in front of my room where I could watch it I got out of the car I went into my room when I got in the room the went in sit down relax got a drink of water stripped all my clothes off went in took me a shower come out of the shower I took some wax that I'd brought along for this particular purpose and if anybody wants to try this it can be pretty painful but I knew that I would have redston on me here and on the side of my face from firing the weapon and across my hand and wrist took hot wax and I poured it on myself and let it cool so it cut into the pores on side of my face and after a few minutes I peel it off which should remove all the nitrates from any gunpowder I went back into the shower and showered again then showered finished up with a good cold one cuz felt like I was kind of on fire and burning when I got out of the shower dried off then I put a lotion on everything to cool the burning sensation then I got dressed once it got dark I went out to the car nobody was around make sure everybody was inside doing whatever they're doing in their motel rooms open the trunk up I took the weapon out of the trunk and when I'd gotten out of the car earlier I'd taken the brief case the gun case with my Fireball in I already taken that into the hotel I went inside had one weapon I took in cleaned it got it ready to put back in the car I waited till after midnight I went back out to the vehicle got in pull the back seat out took the top part off the back put the gun K the gun back in the rack the rifle I secured my Fireball put the gun case in there closed everything back up and went back in the hotel I went to sleep I got up the next morning at first light went down the road there is a restaurant down the road they little ways off on the right hand side as you're coming back East restaurant coffee shop not too far from there maybe mile mile and a half down the road something like that anyway best I can remember I stopped there had me some coffee breakfast got in the car and I left I drove back to the southern part of Illinois when I get southern part of Illinois dirty get dust getting late pull off in a motel there uh did you got back in the I can't remember the name of it I remember it was like a blue and white one I want to say Southern something another like a truck St a lot of trucks there I went in got a room and I stayed overnight there the next morning I went out got in the car receded to Chicago are you drinking man at that time I was yeah you have any drinks while you were in Dallas that during the week beforehand I drain no alcohol I'm working Mr nicoletti would uh frown that very very much if I was down there running around drinking and caval what can you tell me about the death of JD tippet uh when it comes to JD tippet they say that Lee Harvey Oswell was the one that shotting it's not true the party that shot JD Tibet was someone else that had been brought in I'm not sure where he coming from I didn't even know this party was on location but after that I'm already back at the hotel when the party comes up somebody knocks on my door I picked up my 45 walked over the door pull a little Curt back I kind of look out the door to see who's there and I see this party standing there that I recognize that I know and I open the door and my say what the hell you doing here he said had to stop by got a problem you got a problem and I'm looking at him you know I'm still trying to raise you how does he even know I'm here nobody knows I'm here you know this is getting to be a habit like everybody knows Jimmy's in town and he said uh I had to burn a cop and I said well you done what you had to do he said I missed Oswell and I said well what are you doing here you burn you burn a cop he said you here you want to take this get rid of it I said hell no that's yours you taking get rid of it you just shot a cop I don't want his weapon don't you get rid of it that's yours don't get out of here go what are you talking about pardon me what are you talking about the gun I'm talking about the gun that he had was a revolver and uh he said here I had to burn a cop told him you got to you did what you got to do I don't want that thing get away from get out of here go where you got to go kind of dangerous was it I mean you're you're kind of laying low and then this guy yeah this somebody knocks on my door at this point you know I'm you know I'm ready to start shooting again you know and he said okay and he said something another I don't I don't remember exactly what it was and uh he went out he got in his vehicle he took off I don't even know what he was driving cuz soon as he walked out that door I closed the door and pull the curtain back yeah I don't want to know anybody I don't want to know anything whatsoever at this stage of the game you're not naming this party no I'm not naming this party the reason for what the reason for it well I don't if he still alive or not but uh ladies 1991 when I caught this case I know for a fact the party was still alive and in good health okay but you know it has you know he didn't shoot Kennedy he shot a cop you know everybody wants a cop killer okay but this guy's going to how to know who he is I mean I know who he is but I'm not going to tell nobody who he is he's gone that's out of there I have no idea where he's at I don't want to know where he's at well when it comes to giving somebody up I've never given up anybody in my life I'm not going to put anybody in prison and matter of fact you probably couldn't get the FBI to admit to it but when a couple of their people forced their way into State bille I was offered all kind of deals and all kind of agreements if I would not give an interview on John F Kennedy before you know I told them to do what they got to do they did sorry to my regret but the thing is this I'm not going to give anybody up I'm not going to put nobody in prison I have never went to court and testified against anybody and I've had a lot of deals offered in my time I've told them put me in jail I've went to jail I've had cops tell me this and that you know we're going to lock you up we've got you dead bang I've prosecutors coming to tell me you're dead cold plead guilty if you would hear that this party that killed officer tippet is dead would you have no problem revealing his identity you're asking me a question right now I can't answer because I'm not really sure not they didn't make any difference probably if he's dead they couldn't put him on trial but again pardon me if he's dead they couldn't put him on trial but what I'm saying is this I really don't know how I would feel about that because you know to me it's not that irrelevant is not that important and as far as I'm concerned I'm not going to help FBI or anybody else close their records on a murder case you know this is Kennedy we're talking about you know to me I never like Kennedy uh I don't even know why I ever did it I don't even know why the FBI gave Joe West the lead on me I have never understood that one but the typic killing is related to the murder of C uh no the typic killing is not related to the murder of Kennedy if you want to get right down to it the typic killing is related to Oswell because OS was the one that was supposed to die not Tibet Tibet is one of these people that just stopped the wrong person that got caught in the wrong place and when he went to ask a party something and you've got an officer in Round Lake Beach by the name of David Oster tag when he goes out and gives his tours and he talks he tells people how careful they have to be these young recruits because you never know who you're stopping somebody should have given that talk to JD tibbet because he stopped the wrong party and got him killed so the party that killed tippet though was actually out they was after Lee Harvey Oswell make a statement to that okay the party that killed JD Tibet they wasn't there to kill JD tibbet they had parked the little ways from Oswell boarding house they' went down there to kill Oswell they wanted to kill Oswell they didn't want to make a big spectacle out of it they wanted to silence him at that point of the game before anybody can get to him but I guess I don't know if Lee got spooked or whatever it was but then he went to the theater and he knew where he was going when he left there cuz he was was supposed to meet the controller there which is David Aly Phillips he was the one that's supposed to be at the theater as far as I understand how do you know because I know that's where he supposed to be I I knew Lee Harvey Oswell was going to go meet him uh start over just saying it was my understanding that he was meet his David and my understanding with Lee Harvey Oswell when this is over that he was going to be in contact with David Atley Phillips I did not know that David Phillips was going to be at the theater but I knew Oswell was going to go meet him my understanding was with Lee that he was going to meet his controller which was David Phillips who was my controller he was going to meet him I didn't know that it was going to be a theater I have no knowledge of that at that point but if Lee Harvey Oswell ran to a theater that had to be where the meeting was going to take place Leah must have left this house early or for whatever reason I don't really know but the party that went there didn't find Lee there and when he started to leave he was stopped by the police this is when he shot TI what transpar there I can't tell you who saw this guy there I can't tell you whether he ran I can't tell you whether he walked I don't know all I understand is this a party that I know that come by my motel room told me he had to burn a cop the cop he burned was JD Tibet that was the only cop killed in Dallas that day they had to be the one that he burned at this point he says here you want to get rid of that said hell no take you get rid of your own weapon I said I got my own problems get out of here go how did how do you know that Lee was supposed to meet his reason uh when he comes down to the party this guy going for Lee Harvey Oswell the connection is this Lee Harvey Oswell it just spent five days with me Lee Harvey Oswell knew who I was he knew I was in town he knew what just happened was tied to me basically drastically when I talk to Charles nickolle that morning I told him this I said we got a slight problem and I said what's he asked me he said what's that Jimmy I said Lee Harvey Oswell and at that time Mr nicle said Jimmy said who's Lee Oswell he said never heard of this guy I said he's works with the agent said he's one of David's atlete Phillips people Chuck didn't know who David Phillips was and he told me I said he's a tieback to me I'm a tieback to you I said this makes me nervous I'm concerned about it Mr Nick lady told me said Jimmy don't worry about it so I talked to the the only one he could have talked to was Sam if he talked to Sam Sam evidently told him don't worry I'll take care of it the only party that Sam could have called that's Sam Jee Conor that would have been David Phillips David Phillips was in the area that day I know that for a fact I didn't see him I didn't talk to him but I know he was there anyway this party that was there that killed JD Tibet he was brought in at the last minute notice that he had to be on standby and wherever Phillips went he usually kept kept several people around that he could use people that he needed whether he needs them or not they're going to be available they always had what are you call him contract agents operatives co-operatives or whatever he's got people that he can use if he needs something done he can pick up a phone and have it initiated at a moment's notice this party was evidently there on standby because he did not live in that area that's why I was shocked to see him in my motel room so evidently they took care of it that way okay so this party that shot tippet he was more connected to the agency than the mop to the AG he wasn't TI to the mop he might have done some work for him along the way but he was strictly one of David Phillips people CU he did not even know Charles nicoletti are you Ro were you aware of anybody using radio communication in the plaza no I was not okay did you ever hear a man named James Hicks or Jim Hicks I heard the name but I don't know him he already said you saw Richard Kane in the plaza yes Richard Kane was in the plaza is there any chance he was a shooter there's all kind of chances but like I say do I know that no I can't say he was or he wasn't you think Mr nicketti was aware of the identities of any other Shooters other than you and himself if Mr nicoletti had been aware it he would have been made aware of it by Sam Jean cono and if he was aware of it he wouldn't tell me and if there was other Shooters there I can't see where anybody would tell nicoletti Prett very possible that Sam and Sam Jean Conan and David phip could have been talking but like I say again if I know everybody in that area and I get stopped I can name every shooter there if there's other Shooters there I'm not saying there is other Shooters what I'm saying is this I have no need to know of everybody that's involved in an operation what purpose would that serve that's like me going into a communist country on a covert operation and me knowing everybody all the other agents that are there in that field working and if I get captured they all get executed so the same thing goes when it comes down the crime you try to keep your people the least bit of Noah is possible because uh too many times may be partners and that's like I I can use one deal like for uh one party back East here out of uh Philadelphia I had had time with him in the federal prison his own brother gave him up his brother knew that he was a big time cocaine dealer he was a dentist they call him Dr snow I don't remember his real name they call him Dr snow his brother got busted with a nickel bag of weed in New York he gave his own brother up because he couldn't do a year in the jail his brother told him I give you a million dollars a year every year they keep in jail I give you a million dollars cash don't don't testify against me he put his brother in jail did you know Anthony Vinci yes I did I did know Antonio vinciano yes and how did you know him I met him in Miami and he was tied up with the JM wave he was also tied up with the alpha group uh he knew all the other people he was might say he was a little higher up in the ranks but I met him and and did you ever meet somebody you just like well I don't know I liked him he like me you know we had a good repor he's good sense of humor he could talk to you you know and he didn't talk down to you tell us about Jim wave J wave that was a special uh operation set up for a lot of broadcasting and we had a lot of people running a lot of CT activities out of it basically a radio station there for doing a lot of propaganda stuff that was all under David Phillips and where was that located that was in Miami where in Miami oh God out towards Homestead there uh okay tell us about David Ferry David Ferry I won't get into his personal lifestyle David Ferry I did not like David Ferry I'd only seen him on one or two occasions uh me I'm going to say he look like a creep more or less he was stock he heavy set he had real heavy eyebrows and uh basic I didn't like the guy who's homosexual okay do you know anything child molester as far as I'm concerned I knew a lot of things about what he was doing I didn't approve of it but i' like like to say one thing about David Ferry he was a solid agent for the CIA he was on their payroll I don't care what anybody says I'd like to ask James tell us anything about his about his dad F's Dad yeah you know anything about David Fair yes I do he died of several brain hemorrhage but the several brain hemorrage the David Fury had that was brought on and I explained to a corner and I had this checked out he went and talked to him I don't know who all they talked to anything else but I also know that when Warden godinas was the warden here at Stateville prison was on a Sunday morning they made a call up here they wanted to come up and talk to me some people I'm not sure who it was I wanted to come talk to me they said they had a Lear jet on standby and my reply was save you fuel I got nothing to say to you but the tissue ha and the Brain itself was just above the pallet of the mouth the Hemorrhage was inflicted ice pick no sir nail file nail file gives you the simulation of Terror you could use a stiletto thin blade knife ice pick but then you'd see what it is you'd get a clean cut with a fingernail file you got a smooth edge you got a perforated Edge and when it goes through the tissue it's like a tear it's like something ripping apart do you know who did that yes I do was it you was it me of course not not me I wouldn't do that I'm not admitting to a murder on there JFK is bad enough but nobody wants to prosecute me for JFK I'm fine oh okay um who killed David fery I'm not saying but you know who it was I know who it was yeah okay here's a question I've always had General roselli was actually pretty well known and he was well known out in Hollywood he was kind of flashy dress very flashy very flashy very loud like to spend money and like for everybody to know basically what he was doing when he was in town he wanted everybody know he was there why would the mob put somebody like that in on such an important hit as JFK Johnny roselli had all the right connection reason Johnny roselli was brought into all this he had the right connections he was the li like I say between the government and the crime you know the crime people MTH what you want to call him outfit organization crime family you know different names for they brought him in on not because was and I think Chuck want use it more less specifically because of the connections and the cooperation and the help that we could receive this is only what I say this is not fact I got no documented proof on it nobody never sit me down and told me that this is where I draw my own conclusions so he could kind of provide you with some high level cover right high level cover from Johnny roselli site and at this point of the game when I went down there I did not know at that time that the CIA was was heavily involved in any of this after I talk to David Phillips to let him know where I'm at and then when Lee Harvey Oswell shows up on the scene I have at this point become aware only two people knew where I was Charles nickolle and David Farah or David Phillips excuse me start over Okay at this point at the game only two people know where I'm at Charles nickolle and David Phillips Lee Harvey also shows up at my hotel this tells me automatically David Phillips is in on it David Phillips knows what's going down otherwise Oswell would never be there so Oswell was working for the agency Oswell was CIA all Oswell was CIA before ever even knew any of these people Oswell was recruited when he was in the Marine Corps Lee Harvey Oswell knew David Phillips by several names he knew his real name he knew him by different aliases he knew him by different code names Lee Harvey Oswell had known David Phillips a lot longer than I had and PHS had several aliases uh David Phillips he used a lot of aliases one of his most famous one of them I can remember was Maurice Bishop and marce Bish has been a lot of controversy whether it was him or it wasn't him he had other names but right like I said I can't even remember all the different names I can't even remember all the names I've had on different passports with my picture on it in different pictures and everything you know what is your real name my real name is James Sutton and you were born when I was born January 24th 1942 in Alabama and if you find my birth certificate it will PL in the state deceased at Birth how was that arranged I have no idea but I was trying to get a birth certificate from my own records and they could not locate one at first and the logger in Alabama went through everything went to the capital and when he got through he found that three months later I had a birth certificate in there that says deceased at Birth now can the mob do something like that or is that the government that's only the government mob knows a lot of things they got ways to get things done but when they comes into this kind of stuff that's out of their category I'm going to tell you when it comes to government and underhanded work the mob they're kindergarten they're kindergarten I might upset a lot of people in the family saying that but they're kindergarten when it come to working with the government they're the Goldfish and the Sharks pun what kind of man of was David edley Phillips David Edy Phillips was a very secure man lot of class uh quiet he was like domineering he demanded like attention when he was with you uh he was around he had a presence about him all his son he was like he was a command he was somebody when he said something you listened what kind of a man was Charles Nicolle Charles nicoletti very quiet well defined I only heard Mr nicoletti swear on a few occasions he did not use a lot of profanity like they portrayed him in double cross Charles nicoletti mostly got upset when there was FBI involved and there were several different times that that happened but like I say nicoletti was a quiet type of person he didn't go out talk about anything that he had done he didn't go out and get drunk I never saw the man drunk he might take a sociable drink here and there but he was not a man to use profanity you just told us [ __ ] we go said that was one of the times huh that it was one of the times when he said oh [ __ ] him we're going oh that was one of the time definitely when uh they called it off another time I remember was in m park we had the car up on the grease rack in the Shell station there used to be a Broadway IND Division and there's a car parked out front and I told Chuck I said Mr NAD I says I don't know who that is over there we might have a problem he looked over and he said I I don't know he said we'll watch him for a few minutes so they went ahead they serviced this car and they kept sitting out there and they was parked a little ways down from the station like on the that would be on the uh east side of the street called Broadway runs north and uh yeah North and South the vision runs east and west and at that time the sh station stood on the uh northwest corner yeah northwest corner on the northeast corner was a golf gas station and they was parked just beyond that front of twoo flat down there they kept staring and they kept watching us the Chuck said I got to see who they are he says Jimmy he's just covering me so I told the kid doing the grease job on the car and he all CH say Lord the car minute when they LED it I walked around back the overhead door I had them pull that down so they couldn't see what we were doing in there I opened the trunk up and I took a rifle out got that out they raed the car back up in the air and I went over by one of the windows there craw up on like the uh workbench back there and open one of the windows up and I went out the back way then I craw up on the roof and I got up behind the shell sign I told Chuck I says give me two minutes and then go he walked out he walked across the parking lot and he was well adjusted he had kind of like his right hand down by his little watch pocket like we carried a small caliber weapon there and uh I got the guy the driver like zeroed up anybody picks up a gun they're going to get it he got to the middle of Broadway and the car pulled out and took off so we don't know who it was but the only thing you said inside when it started to go when I started got the gun out you just got to be the [ __ ] feds and that was one of those times he was very upet but they used to really paranoid him okay these are stories we want to hear but yeah I understand yeah we need to focus on the because this is BR right did The Wolf Man have any idea of those Mercury loads he made did he have any idea what they were going to use for uh when wolf man when asked him to make the special rounds the only thing he ever asked me was he says do you need any help he never asked me what I was doing cuz he would never breach that uh borderline whatever you want to call it there and the Trea you just don't ask people what they're going out to do but when I told him what I wanted done and what I needed made he told me to do it the only thing was he said he kind of gr at me said you need any help and I said no this is straight and he said okay so he really didn't know he said see me in a couple of days uh you ever heard of uh ever heard the story of Ed Hoffman yes I've heard of it I don't know who he is but I've heard of it he's the deaf guy who was up on Stemmons and he says he saw a guy essentially your position but he saw him toss a rifle to somebody else but you got I never tossed anything to anybody okay never how did you guys know that the bubble top was off well when Kennedy come down to Dallas we have one concern we fig the limo might have a bubble top you know cuz they' never it'd never went anywhere without it and if it's raining the only thing is we was told in advance if the top is on it's a walkway you know you [ __ ] it you leave it we'll pick another place we try again and that would have probably Fallen to someone else but this question had been asked us how you going to get through the top me my answer was you know using some pretty heavy artillery like you know using uh one of the old uh what do you want to call those things the I can't got the name on the tip of my tongue piercing no not armor piercing one of the rounds were knocking out tanks Bazookas today we got lost Rockets but we didn't have lost Rockets to run around with back then that's something new that come down the pike but anyway they said no they said we do it sensible but the thing was they had been instructed they were going to work on his ego because they tried to make Kennedy believe he shouldn't go to Texas that he should be afraid of Texas they worked on Z said you got to use the bubble top you have to have the top on you can't sit in an open car uh you got to sh you got to you got to let these whatever they think you got to let them think you know you're afraid or whatever but there's a high risk here you got to have the top on the more they worked on Kennedy about this the more he wanted to top off Kennedy wanted to prove I'm not scared of anything I want the top off I want to wave the people I want to see the people POS I want to touch the people so they played on his ego the top was off were you aware that David Ferry was involved D among many other things in cancer research uh I did not know David FY was involved in anything in cancer research no I did not okay so you would you got any thoughts about Jack Ruby's cancer do you think that was natural or unnatural I'm going to say it was injected there's one thing I want to say when you talk about uh David Ferry for his cancer research I have no knowledge of that at all but I do know he liked to play around with hypnosis I think he used on a lot of young kids cuz he was in charge of the Civil Air Patrol yeah for a second back to that bubble top what would you have done if it would be on well back to the bubble top on the car if they' have had the top on it was a walkway but we would have known that before he ever got to the plaza because we would have been ined if they come out and they pick him up and they got the top on they're not going to remove the top during the motorcade nobody would have been there none of us would have been on hand to watch John F Kennedy come down through because I could care less about seeing the man but at the would have been on I would have already been on my way back to mosqu and I'm quite certain that Mr nickle and roselli would have been on their way somewhere else so if it would have rained it was no go if it was still raining it was no go but when you plan something all you can do is hope for the best uh like a football you know you got to make the play seconds you're running out you go for the long one if it works it works it don't it don't you walk away to your knowledge there was no plan B pardon me to your knowledge there was no plan B be no backup plan there was no backup plan for that the only backup plan we had for that was at the top is Z on it's a noo here's some questions Pam has for you uh what has changed in your life in recent years uh I think probably the biggest change in my life is and let me go back just a little bit further before this change took place I had no emotions or no feelings basically speaking for anyone at all my family never came first the agency came first crime family came first everybody was always ahead of my wife and my kids wrong I know that I know that now I've got probably a lot of regrets maybe some remorse for a lot of the things that I did do I'm sorry at times I wasn't there to see my kids go to their little school plays or do their dances recital or whatever I'm sorry I wasn't there for the birthdays for a lot of their Christmases but those things are part of my life growing up this things that I accepted because to me other things were more important my family my wife my kids they were we down on the list of priorities wrong I know after I got here when I got here this place was pretty well wide open place was very violent wild and you know we just had recently had several lockdowns due to Deaths here that wasn't natural but a few years ago what happened to me was I went to sleep one night I had a lot of hate in me had a lot of anger in me I had a list of names boy I want to start writing down names Nam and I want this person I want that person a lot of hate in me but I woke up during the night I Found Jesus sitting by my bunk a lot of people say yeah it's a dream maybe it was a Dream It's a dream to you dream to him to me it's real and I'll ask him I say what are you doing here and he said I've come to tell you there's only one way he said the father sent me to tell you he said that I'm for real God is for real that I'm for real he says the only way that the father is through me so we said we talked for a little while and I went back to sleep the next morning I woke up all the hate was gone I used to wake up and come out of my cell every morning it's not what am I going to do today it's who am I going to have to kill today who am I have to stab today or who's going to try to stab me who I got to fight you know because there''s been a lot of fights here a lot of stabbings but I had a new feeling in me I was real like you know I felt like I loved everybody you know hey how you doing boom I talked to people I never talked to I even talked to the cops hey how you doing what's going on heyy hey nice day well after a little while I started slipping back again I got back back to be in the old Jimmy again I started getting these other these angry feelings back want to fight you know you look at me the wrong way I'm going to grab you slam you into the wall you know whatever you do uh I got a second visit when I got the second visit from Jesus has really got my really got my attention and at this point I'd already heard from this one girl this one lady I don't know if I should name her on tape or not but I become romantically involved I become I fell in love with her I love her with all my heart probably love her more than I've ever loved anything in my life but we were talking and writing and she was a good Christian lady and she had told me a few different things and so the second visit I got Jesus told me to get my life in order the father was going to call me home I thought well Jesus I'm going to die and I'm going to die right away and so I told her on the phone so she just crying a little bit you know I was a little sad over you know this and that but then I was reading in the Bible and I was reading in Matthew chapter 24 about the Earth giving the birth pain and all this what God was telling me Jesus was telling me God's not calling me home this stage of the game but be prepared get ready for heaven so I can have a life Hereafter and I'm reading all about this in Matthew and then it struck on me what I was I call her and I told her and Stu but like I say since then I've lived a whole different life here I used a few words profanity in this interview strictly for the reason of what was said there was actual words verbatim but when I'm not like not in the city of you I try not to use vulgar language I try not to hate people I try to maintain good thoughts but in here that's hard to maintain good thoughts very hard in here but I work at it very hard and I pray every night every day I don't run around with my Bible I don't run around trying to tell you all about the word of God that's not my job you want to hear about it I'll be more than happy to sit down and talk to you about it but I don't try to push it on anybody we have very a lot of different kinds of religions here why briefly tell me why you're in prison right now I'm in prison for a specific reason when I come out of the federal prison I did a Federal stretch and I was out for a little while people started trying to kill me when they started trying to kill me the first time I was at a long Quinton Road and Rollins Road in Round Lake Beach shortly past midnight driving a little Chevy shet and the cops had been harassing me there they knew who I was every time they see me they'd handcuff me get me out of the car and my papers blow out they throw all my stuff down the street this particular night I pull up the stoplight there I'm on Quinton Road fixing to make a rightand turn on Rollins Road I'm staying with my ant KN at this time they're about two blocks down from there I looked up in the rearview mirror and I seen a car pulling up behind me with no lights next Lane and I thought [ __ ] it's cops again you know I'm going to get hassle again it's not a squad car nothing but I just figured it's detectives you know is it pulls up alongside of me I'm looking in the mirror sitting by the door the little door on the side and I see an SMG come up what anybody don't know that is that small machine gun automatic weapon as they see it coming out of the window I roll across the seat hit the door hit the ground roll back up again the rocker panel of the car they put 30 holes in my car full clip they put into it as they were pulling away I come up off the ground with my piece and I got off about four rounds I'm on federal parole at that point I'm not supposed to be carrying a weapon but you'd never find me without a weapon I got off four rounds took the back going to out they kept going I jumped back in my car took a riot on the Rollins Road went down to Grove Avenue pull in the house at man Al a 1620 Grove went in there and got the tarp from my uncle out of the garage and put it over the car so he couldn't see the bullet holes that was the first first attempt on my life when was that uh that was I got out of pH prison 88 this year's late 89 early 90 I guess been any attempts on your life in prison not in prison I've had a lot of fights but that's not attempts on my life I mean the things that happen here is uh it's just day-to-day living I got a few scars and knives here and there but that's irrelevant there you don't think it was people trying to take you out oh no definitely not well then certainly wouldn't have anything to do with the JFK job no definitely not and when they started trying to kill me on the street there the first attempt on my life in the Free World As I call it next day I went to see somebody down in the city and I went up and I asked him a specific question if we had a problem I said I would I did my federal time I said I got busted on the chop shops I didn't take nobody down with me I went kept my mouth shut I didn't testify I didn't give nobody up I took the conviction I done my time what's the problem we got a problem let me know and he told me he said Jimmy he says he always called me Jimmy said Jimmy boy he says come come down come down he said listen to me he said you got no problem with us he said you did your thing he said hey you didn't have no problem when you was down you got money looked after certain people for you took care of your family you had no problems when you come out you went to the restant you said everybody parked everybody come by to see you he said we dropped a lot of envelopes he said you have money when you come out everybody looked after you when you come out this that's respect don't think we're after you said whatever you've done it's for your previous employers not us that's on the other side defense the people that you worked for before he said them not us Jimmy he said I give you my word on that the second attempt that was on my motorcycle and it's a long story I won't go through all that hold a minute so you're saying that attempt was not the mob that was the agency that was the agency that was the government somebody in the government I believe government is tried to take you out that's what I honestly believe okay make a statement now then the second time on my attempt or you're talking about making a statement with the government yeah after I talked to the certain party in Chicago down in the city about them trying to kill me and he's telling me that was my previous employers what we're talking about here we're talking about a government agency I won't say which agency it was that tried to take me out but I know at that time I was had people in the dod on me because I had taken certain uh Material off the uh computer at Oxford from the Arsenal so I worked in the office I had an excess classified material there for building uh new tanks new helicopters everything I had the gun in placements off one of the black hwk helicopters I had the allocations for everything I had the rate of firing anything to fi because we made a lot of the stuff there we made the nitr cable of fire the side Winder missile inside a federal prison okay anyway the second attempt was when now I realized this here is not the crime family after me it's got to be a government agency the second attempt on my life was at late at night they ran me over my motorcycle they hit me so hard they bent the frame on it they total the motorcycle out that's all on record next time I come around the third time with these two off dirut officers one of them is David AAG they will never admit they had a contract on my life and I want to say one thing I got no I got no hard feelings against either one of these officers even though they tried to kill me I don't take this anything personal I take it they were doing a job they're doing what they was paid to do they just blew it but the thing is this I'm here because somebody opened up on my partner and me they tried to kill us in broad daylight on May 7th 19 and 91 3:15 p.m. maybe 3:30 in the middle of around 12 in a little place called Buffalo Grove where between Quenton Road and long road road on Route 12 they forced us off the road when they forced us off the road they say with a highspeed chase it really wasn't a highs speed chase they spotted me at a gas station I didn't even see them I paid for the gas got in the car my partner David Morley he was driving as we pulled out from there they got in behind us they got up alongside of us he started hit the gas to go and I told him now hold pull it over we don't run from nobody and my exact [ __ ] them we don't run pull it over we'll deal with with it they cut us off like he pull into like a part of a driveway it was gravel a little fast he hit the brakes we slid into a little tree the tree we hit wasn't any bigger than my arm I threw the door open on the right hand side to exit the car this was the leashed car I through the door up and exit they drove their car which is a white unmarked car into the side of our car when I seen the front of the car coming at the door I jerk my leg back up off the ground so I wouldn't get it cut off and they were broken and dug my head and when they hit the door the door hit me and knocked me back into the car I bounced off the dash and at that point they opened fire my partner David Morley very good man he saved my life on several occasions in the Free World his left hand is paralyzed he'd been shot up a couple times before in shootouts he can't use his left hand at this point he's leaning down fumbling under the seat of the car looking for his gun looking for a 9 mimer and I'm yelling get out get out get out and to me it seemed like it's taking fever when he got the nine he put it up under his arm he's got to close his arm reach across to open the door to exit this is only a few seconds but it seemed like a lifetime to me we come out of the car when he come out he took the first shot David a tag went down at this point when I come out there no made even shoot the other officer Bitner I didn't know they were cops at that time neither did my partner we had no idea they were police officers he crawled up under the car and he was screaming I guess they're going to kill us both they're going to kill us both but davidas tag was already down I grabbed the AK-47 out of the car had it in the back seat i' one picked that up out of the storage shed for the simple reason i' had a meeting prior to those people and somebody had poked me in the chest and I just knocked them down and stomped on them a couple times and told them don't ever threaten me to tell me you're going to trunk me if you do do it first then come and tell me that you done it I went told daveid I said we got problems I went got the y47 out got the ammo can out I had a 30 round clip in the AK-47 this is all in the law books the ammo can had 500 20 rounds of ammo in it David AER tag can tell you how many rounds we had for the 9 mm the clips all the loose rounds I went into a little swamp took them several hours to get me out the AK47 tractor spring it broke it wouldn't fire any witnesses to all of this a lot of people around lot of people we had traffic backed up from uh the shooting incident there all the way to Wisconsin and all the way to the city of Chicago so if they who opened fire first they opened fire first and they were in an unmarked car unmarked car plain clothes plain clothes they had a windbreaker on they were wearing a badge on their gun belt underneath the windbreaker jacket sitting in a car they were shooting from inside the car David oser tag had exited coming around shooting when David Morley dropped him did they ever say you were on the under arrest or no did they identify did they yell police officers nobody identified nothing I mean the shooting started how many shots were fired before U your partner took the shot well I'm going to say they were they got off probably the first 14 shots they say they fired 3 and 11 out of 52 they said we fired the rest of them but there's not that many showcases on on hand and if the only weapons that were fired were 9 mm that day and my weapon hadn't been fired that least three Clips it's only 45 rounds at 15 rounds to 9 mm in a staggered cliff and they didn't fire that many they still had rounds in theirs so there's no way 52 rounds were fired that day oh there's all kind of witnesses that seen one went down there's witnesses that will plainly State on who who got out who shot who and who shot first that's all in the court documents so how did you get a how they get get a conviction if there are witnesses to say they fired first that was very simple we were Tred in Lake County Illinois it didn't take them long to convict this everybody on the jury was related to a cop you don't shoot a cop and walk away you shoot a cop it don't matter if it's self defense or not were the witness reports uh allowed as evidence uh some of those were denied I had witnesses that come there to testify on my behalf and it was irrelevant they were not permitted to testify my own aunt was not permitted to testify at my trial as for dle the frame that it was stey fence over and out and I didn't even shoot nobody tell us a little bit about your uh military background and when and how you recruited into the CIA I went into the military in January 1959 regular army I went in uh for Wood Missouri took my basic there from there I went to Fort poke AIT training there uh I went to brag for Airborne went to LA and La I got in trouble over there I'm not really in trouble we had some problems I executed two of my own men I was Court Marshal I wrote my own Court Marshal I wrote the report if they got me Court Marshal I didn't write the court Marshal set but the report I wrote was a result of it and they uh knew that I was right every JCS knew that I was right I went for 90-day evaluation and I was was recruited out of the veterans hospital and uh there has been claimed numbers located on that some say they're not mine but they were Phillips recruit you or shackley recruit shackley recommended me Phillips is the one that recruited me he come to see me and told me he had a job waiting for me I walked out of the uh veterans hospital where was that that was there in Maywood Illinois uh who was a director at that time I don't even remember that poor back I don't remember D was still there if he was already out or not I'm not I don't remember at that time I knew virtually nothing about the CIA to speak of I only knew it existed did you go through any training or they just AC I took I he took me in like I was at for what he wanted me for I'd already been through all my training Advanced Training for uh to go to La i' already been to LA and back again and he wanted me to work and train some of the Cubans are you a pilot uh I can fly yes did you ever get a pilot's license I had a pilot license at one time yes who'd you fly for I flew basically for myself now if you want to ask me who was paying me the agency was paying me I did a lot of things I flew a lot of planes uh but we uh I didn't have no company name or nothing I just had a plane and went up lot of it was considered to go back through southern Air transport what we call sat that CIA yeah CIA priority company yeah what about DEA you ever worked for them never worked for the DEA I had a chance at one time and I turned it down that's when they had what they call the Halloween Massacre I believe it was and I'm going to say I think it was Bobby Ray enman that fired like 3,000 contract agents at one time that's back in the 70s yeah and at that time this when they were forming the DEA and they wanted a lot of people to go to work at da because they had had uh operations in that part of the country down there in Central America around and they needed people that knew the area and I was approached and I was asked if I would be willing to join that force and I told him no I will not I'm not going to work for anybody where you arrest people how long do you figure the government U CIA FBI as official agencies has known about your participation in the JFK H well I didn't know it at the time but I have learned and I've seen the I've even been given the name of it that the party that was the informant and he was uh tiing between both the CIA and the FBI and he was the one and how he knew I was in De Plaza I don't know but he told the FBI that I was in D Plaza and that I was one of the shooters when when did that happen and he told them that in early 1964 and nothing was done about it I never even knew anybody knew about it until I seen some of the documents here about couple of years back is it true that during the Clinton Administration that you were presented as a threat to National Security that was in uh 1998 uh historian for the 82 Airborne he was doing a lot of research area on me his name was John Grady he recently passed away which I'm sorry to say very very very nice man he also is a good veteran he served in World War II but he did a lot of research on me and checked a lot through a lot of people found out to me to be credible he verified a lot of things that him and I discussed he' come here to visit me and when him and I was corresponding he was approached by the Secret Service and they warned him that I was a threat the national security and in 1998 I don't remember what month it was but Janet Reno and President Bill Clinton at that time declared me as a threat to National Security it was basically for training manuals and formulas and uh information they retrieved out on one of my storage sheds when they rated it boy today under Homeland Security they have probably have as a terrorist threat since you know how to make boms that could be I know there is a US martial detaining on me at this time US Marshals what there is a US Marshals detaining on me at this time what does that mean that means the day I walk out of here the US Marshals will be here to pick me up they want to talk to me there is no outstanding charges there's no charges against me what they have against me is the detainer all they want to do is talk to me what they want to know is they want to be notified when I leave here in other words all I know is that he was a historian for the 82nd Airborne and he had been hired to do a research on me and he started researching me and after he did a lot of research he contacted me for more information he come here to State B prison to visit me from Florida we visited we talked I gave him dates information and things and he went he verified a lot of it necessary were your records missing pardon me why was it necessary were your records missing or when it got down to my records nobody had ever heard of me it took uh Mr uh Grady I believe it was don't hold me this figure I'm going to say it was 18 months to find any military trace of me and he found them in the archives in St Louis Missouri once those records had been discovered and he found them and he got down claim numbers serial numbers etc etc few months later they went back to retrieve some more information from those records and the records were missing and there was a thing there that said uh no more information is available do you know the term sheep dipping uh sheep dipping is a very common practice what sheep dipping is that's the old term for back when I was first in like we went to LA there was no Americans going over there I mean let's face it no Americans went to Southeast Asia until like 62 or 63 but what a lot of people don't realize is southeast Asia is the old Indochina we were there during World War II we never come out of there and the olding goes India Alpha Charlie or how it go Charlie India Alpha went up in northern part of Indo China never come out they went up there for the drug trade the opium trade the heroin because that's the Golden Triangle and that's where going way ahead in years that's where the golden uh the body bags and the stuff coming out of Vietnam was all that stashed in human bodies coming out the corpses and you go in your sterile you don't care you wear no dog tags you're not registered to any country to anybody if you're caught you're retrieved you're sterile what sterile means is there's no tiebacks to anybody you've got no trading validity so what they do to a mercenary they stand him up and they shoot him he's executed and you can't say you work for anybody because they're not going to believe you anyway CU you can't prove it so when you go sheep you go sterl you're on your own in other words your ass is hanging out off of the limb be careful it don't get chopped off and that's a common practice common practice still practice still used today at what level do you think the decision was made to hit Kennedy I would say that decision was made higher up way high up I'm going to say higher than Sam G Conor oh way higher higher than LBJ I would say much higher than LBJ LBJ was fixing to go to prison a lot of people may not realize that but he was in a lot of trouble jedar Hoover he was in a lot of trouble uh but that's that's different ball game right there but they was they relish by his death but jedar Hoover had knowledge of Kennedy's assassination six months in advance and that's documented records from the National Security Agency because they forwarded the information to him because they picked it up on the link on their link out of Scotland are you aware of JFK's attempt to issue interest free money uh I didn't know that until very recently very recently I just read a book called rule by secrecy by Jim Mars and that's the first time I ever heard that John F Kennedy had authorized money to be printed I always thought it was by the Federal Reserve but I got to say like I've never read much in that field uh I've never uh car for JF Kennedy I've never read about him I know very little about johnf Kennedy um do you uh are you remorseful about shooting Kennedy for many years no I wasn't but as the time goes by I'm not sayfe remorseful for shooting Kennedy maybe I'm more remorseful for how it affected this country and for the things that's done maybe John Kennedy did do some good things for this country I'm not really sure but I got a lot of remorse for a lot of things that I've done but that's for the simple reason I've got my life turned around a little bit so I can't be as hard as I used to be I try to have a lot of compassion for my fellow man but for John F Kennedy got to be honest yeah let side I got a little remorse there for him because uh not specifically maybe him but like for his family for the kids and all but at the time when we acted I thought that I was right in what we were doing why did you dislike it man I dislike K reason you got to understand I didn't like Kennedy for one reason I didn't know the man personally never met the man never seen him in person before I know the whole thing was I was heavily involved in training for the bear pigs I didn't go with them I wasn't on the shoulder I wasn't a soldier I didn't go there and fight I never fired a shot I trained them sitting up uh demolitions making bombs uh weapon ambushes we call them Ma mechanical ambushes uh firing weapons train them in weapons trade and some hand toand combat what I did wasn't all that important but you get to know guys you work with them all day you out there at the fire night you sleep out there in the Wilders you know you live together for a while they get trained they go away if I had my choice I'd have went with them luckily I didn't but when they went there and they got slaughtered got arrested put in prison all their lives tortured K it was a mess all because Kennedy and we had all kind of fire power sitting out there waiting we got to had some good airplanes there they shapped at them bad Kennedy wouldn't do it he got scared he wouldn't go for it when I see Kennedy got scared he was scared of uh he was scared of crew chap rushing them but the whole thing was this that's one of those things they called it off it was a nogo they had no support they went in they got their ass shot off so he felt like Kennedy had betrayed him oh Kennedy betrayed he I felt like he really betrayed me even though he didn't know even know who I was but he betrayed the operation itself and this was a government sanctioned operation without a doubt and when this happened and uh then later I found out that a lot of the people that we trained are supposed to been there they were put on a I want to call it a Banana Boat like a freighter and these people they were trucked around there's several hundred men on this on this uh on this freighter and they're giving them like a 5day joy ride around the Gulf of Mexico instead of taking them over there to fight and These Guys these Cubans I mean they were dedicated they were dedicated where these were well when you get down to what's a patriot what's a terrorist the Cuba they have been terrorist that's the Patriots okay a patriot and a terrorist the only difference is what side defense you're on everybody's fighting for what they believe in but these Cubans they were Fighters they they wanted to go and they were very very upset with the agency and a lot of other people because they didn't make the sing during that time during the time of the Bay of Pigs while you were training moving around the Caribbean no name key and all like that you ever hear the name George Herbert Walker Bush oh yeah what was his role George Herbert Bush I don't know a lot of people ain't going to believe this but he worked for his CA back as early in 1961 that I know of how'd he work for him what did he do uh I don't know what all he did but he did a lot of recruiting work I know he was there at the beginning for what we call uh group 40 Special Operations group group 40 you wonder what group 40 was assassination group do you have any proof of what you've told us in regards to the Ken ass when it gets down to this part about a lot of people ask a lot of different questions about things uh the one thing that I could verify right now which cannot be made public is a ledger diary Ledger whichever you prefer to call it uh spoke with some papers things that uh Charles nicoletti gave to me before he was killed things got pretty active here uh Sam Gan con was the first one to be killed and that was in 75 and I want I'm not sure maybe September was 75 go there he was killed the night he was killed Johnny roselli was in town I saw Johnny roselli at the airport and when Johnny roselli come in he didn't we didn't talk or anything thing I was there to pick somebody else up that coming on that flight just by coincidence and I picking up a party that I did a lot of work for collecting money and things but anyway I seen Johnny we just nodd at each other he had another man with him when they left we was right behind them they got in their vehicle outside we got our took off we went down the road we went down uh River Road proceeding South the kid with me said the only place Johnny could be going it' be going over to see Sam uh fifth avue on River Road there in Belmont they had a place they call the Blue Horizon Johnny pull in there momentarily let the guy with him out whoever this guy was he wasn't going to Sam's house because Sam didn't like a lot of people come to his house and if he didn't know him they wasn't going to get in anyway and Johnny went on I went my way Johnny Rose they went his Johnny roselli the next morning I woke up Sam Jean Conor had been ex been executed Gangland style when he was killed bills for me Johnny roselli had to be the one to do it cuz he was there I know he went to Sam's house that night the following year Johnny roselli was killed when Johnny roselli was killed the party I'm fig it's the same guy that he probably dropped off there was two people killed down there in the Tampa St pet there in that area that was got rid of at the same time one was Johnny roselli the other one another party unknown whoever it was I don't remember the name of him now but evidently it was a friend of his that had travel to Chicago with him I figured he knew something and somebody took him out too because they knew that Johnny brazell what you done okay this guy he might have told this guy this guy know they got rid of him and when it comes down to it the crime family did not have Sam Jean Conan killed I don't know who killed him except for Johnny roselli there but I believe that the government ordered the contract killing on Sam Gan Conor I believe the government is the one that killed Johnny roselli to shut him up so he couldn't talk all of this was about the time of the house select committee on Assassin all it yes the following that was thean pardon me definitely but anybody that knew Sam G and Conor they knew Sam G and Conor would have never talked he have went to jail he' have kept his mouth shut he would not talk the following year Johnny roselli he got killed that silenced him and then in April uh was April 19th or a janary no March March 29th this the night that uh Charles nicoletti was killed and he was supposed to go testify before some committee and he was killed at the golden horns right there in uh m park there on North Avenue and uh manhein Road the golden horns restaurant and I thought at first maybe somebody the family had hit him cuz we knew there was trouble and right before his death he'd give me this package and told me said this is my life insurance he said if I need it I want you to have it you can always get to it he said and if anything happens to me he says you might need it someday so what he gave me was I took it and I went out got me some cheesecloth I wrapped a little package up and I put a little m box I went out and I dug a hole and I buried it put it away and covered it all up so about a week week and a half later you know J Chuck was killed after he was killed right after that maybe another week 10 days later I had uh two places on Lake Street there in Mar Park one was a restaurant called The Coffee Cup it's no longer there it's been closed down they put a parking lot there for the West Lake hospital and right down below it going east on the following block down there which had been the 1100 block I had a club there social club and what that was we did bookmaking there we had card games there we had a couple of pool tables in there and that's where a lot of the guys come there and hung out at uh we didn't have any booze area we didn't have any women there what we did you want to gamble you come there and you gamble you come there and you hung out to be with a guys oh when people uh come around come to the club there to gamble and play I didn't charge him for nothing I wanted some I call the restaurant up so this is about oh 11:00 11:30 that night I called up to the restaurant and I told my grill man guy called gorilla is fixing me up uh a couple dozen hamburgers fries dozen black cofes and get it ready he said hey boss let me bring it down to the club you czy stay where you're at stay in the res you don't belong down there stay up there cuz Gilla he left to come down there and hang out and Gamble and everything else and I had him working behind the grill I said when you get it fix give me a boss when it's ready to be picked up he said okay boss cuz he always called me boss got ready call back down the club he boss it's ready you want to pick it up said I'll run it down if you want now don't worry I come and get it so put it in the Box he had a cardboard box he put it in be ready to go like always we've done this many times Time After Time After Time there nothing unusual about it you know so I walk out of the club it's nice night out you know so I walk down to the corner and the car's coming down off the side street on the Lake Street well come up does like you know rocking for a Hollywood stop come up the stop sign and stop hits the braks and kind of rocks back I step back up on the crib so don't get run over I'm thinking nothing about it it's nly you know the next thing I know somebody sticks something out the one I got sprayed in the face and I hit the ground I don't remember falling down when I come to I was strapped up tied up blindfolded and uh I went through a pretty severe torture test and all this year has been verfied also what they wanted they wanted the lger they never got it when they got through with me my uh legs were still taped together my arms WR were still taped behind my back they threw me out of a car out there in alst people found me they call the cops up police come out there some of them recognized me everybody in town as long as I've been missing everybody figured I was dead did when they threw you out of the car do you think they thought you were dead oh they thought I was dead definitely otherwise they' have never left me alive that's why I always that's why I've always blame the FBI for it because the family or the C they would have couple holes in the back of my head and four or five inside the mouth through the pilot gangan execution style these people they didn't do that when I lost conscious and couldn't be brought back evidently they figured I was dead they didn't even bother them take me nothing I was still naked they threw me out of the car in the nude ankle still taped hands behind my back everything's still taped up and so the El mer police they knew who I was they picked me up they took me in to their place wanted to put me in the hospital they took me over the emergency room as a matter of fact and then they made a couple of phone calls and notified my wife and uh my wife had a heart attack cuz as soon as she answered to phone the El eler police uh Miss files we have found your husband and when she said that she didn't knew that was dead you know so she broke down she got all hysterical her mother was there then uh they got a hold of gorilla and they'll come out there to get me they took me home they would put me in the hospital no I'm not going to the hospital told him take me home I couldn't even talk I'm writing notes I want to go home I want to go home I'm scrubbing it out on paper my throat I had screamed so much I had no voice left and uh so gorilla he sit in the house with me cuz if I had to go to the bathroom he had picked me up carry me to the bathroom and he sitting there I got a Remington Model a70 on the side of his stamp law enforcement on bowling stock eight rounds in it I had a gun car in the driveway one on each end of the block some of the Broadway police they said man you need help so we'll cover you we'll park our cars at this no I got my own guys here don't worry about it just don't let nobody mess with them they we got you cover your guys are okay don't worry about it so over the next three days like there four days until I get to where I could talk again gorilla stayed there at the house with me he didn't even go home and they never got the Ledger that's still missing not missing I know who it is let me clarify one thing nobody know world knows where that is by me it's right here nobody else can ever take them to it still your insurance policy it's still it and if I die all those secrets in that book go to go to my grade With Me Now what's what's all in that little package that there a little box it's a little box little package inside cheesecloth inside a metal box what's in there what is in there in this side this here this Ledger what they want I got a few other things in there but what they want is this Ledger cuz it's got every just about basically every murder that was carried out in the Chicago land area it's got dates it's got names figures of money different things reasons why people who ordered it anything in there about the JFK hit you've got uh there's a couple little lines in there it's got JFK down it's got the date on it basically that's it anything else in there that concerns the assassination uh no just that just the date and the name and everything but it's all in Chuck's own handwriting what was in the package was I exposed up a lot of it like Secret Service identification I didn't need that uh uh I exposed up the little map the last many change that was irrelevant I burned all that stuff I've got rid of all that the only thing I kept was The Ledger The Ledger pertained basically to uh the contracts from around town local people people that was paid people that was hit the dates when it happened and sometime the reason why why would the why would the FBI care about all that oh they'd love that cuz they could put a lot of people in jail and they could clear a lot of cases oh they could have cleared a lot of cases they could close the door on a lot of murder cases I'm going to say probably some in the neighborhood of maybe 60 60 contract killings in Chicago over the years there why did you burn the motor rout I didn't need it it wasn't important to me what's it good for that was only another admission to a part of a murder evidence Charles nicoletti is dead at this point the only thing I'm going to hold is that ledger like he said that ledger is everything diary Ledger whatever you want to call it but uh everything else I disposed of I had no need for it yeah uh tell us a little bit about Lee Harvey Oswell and your impression of him my impression of Lee Harvey Oswell Lee Harvey Oswell is a very quiet type person secluded very private my manard you might say he wasn't one he didn't do a lot of boasting or bragging he didn't do a lot of caving I mean what he did he kept to himself Le Harve oo as far as Ang I like the guy very intelligent very intelligent when we got into certain subjects I mean he can make me look like a dummy let's face it so he's a lot better educated than oh he's lot better educated than what people say Lee Harvey o he had very good self-control because he had a little scar upon his lip and I ask one time how he got it and he told me it was in the Marine cor somebody hit him with the butt of a rifle up here I thought you must have ripped their guts out or some ripped their ass out he said no he said I didn't do he's an accident I didn't he get upset about it but that's the type of person he was he was calm he was collect capable of killing someone no Lee har arm everybody's capable of killing somebody let's face it you got your back to the wall but is Lee Harvey Oswell a killer no he wasn't an assassin no uh do you think uh the American public really wants to know the truth of the Kenny assassination oh I don't think they really do I don't think they really care but one more thing about Lee Harvey Oswell Lee Harvey OS when I say he wasn't a killer or anything like that Lee Harvey Oswell he had it all up here very very intelligent I want say he had a good IQ and he held a top secret security clearance and there's another thing I'd like to State can get on record they talk about Lee Harvey ell this and that and him running off to Russia the only way Lee Harvey Oswell could have went to Moscow he held a top secret security clearance when he was on the base in Japan if you hold a top secret security clear and people can go check this anywhere in the days of the Cold War you did not jump on a plane and fly to a communist country and I don't care who you was you had to be cleared for it the only people that could have engineered that for him to go to Moscow was the CIA and the Russians were so scared of Lee Harvey Oswell over there not fearful of what he' do to them they knew what what was going down they gave him a place to stay and he W up marrying Marie over there and they was too happy to put him on a plane to send him back to the US gave you m yeah what was going down then what was the mission for Lee Harvey I have no idea what the mission was but he went over there for some reason I never asked him he never told me I never asked him why he went to Russia but you cannot tell me that he was disgruntled with this country and he wanted to go there and be a member of the Communist Party there's no way he took a cover and he went and they just wouldn't buy the story would you describe him as patriotic uh I would say Le he did a lot of work for this country he everything he did was based basically on this country he was not a traitor I don't care what anybody say all the research Bas everybody can say all they want I know Lee Harvey o he wasn't that type of person he wasn't a traitor has any other journalist other than myself come and talk to you as a journalist outside of Joe Weston Bob burner no I've never given any other interviews to anybody you didn't talk to Mike Cochran Mike Cochran who's Mike Cochran he was with the Associated Press uh no I did not talk to Mike Cochran I talked to a guy by the name of David folson from there but he never come here to visit me we only wrote through letters okay oh okay um why do you suppose the news media doesn't take an interest in your story nobody wants to admit it everybody thinks I'm a nud job but like I say I've had enough things that I've said it's been clarified been verified there's documents but nobody really wants to solve the Kennedy case the American people I don't really think they care the news media they need something that they can go with every year you get a lot of people that make a lot of money writing books I don't know how many book how many books has been wrote about it couple thousand yeah might put all them people out of work if if you consider that you're talking to the American public what would you tell them about the Kennedy assassination at the time I believe the Kennedy assass V ination was necessity the reason it was carried out the reason it was ordered in my own belief is the money people the power people they wanted to stay in Southeast Asia it's not about who did who to what over here it was about the money that was to be made JF Kennedy wanted to bring all the boys home from Southeast Asia that were over there certain people wanted to keep those guys over there we needed it because there's going to be deep sea ports built there's going to be the biggest runways in the world built for bombers in different places and Guam okanawa southeast Asia is going to be flooded with a bases we're not talking millions and we're talking maybe trillion dollars or more you've got your chemical companies that's going to come in this is the greatest ground the river was with chemical warfare testing and to have a war you need deep sea ports you need runways airplanes manufacturers tanks Weaponry ammunition Munitions to be made bombs to be made we're talking we're talking an alltime economics deal here big money they sad to say the Rich get rich the poor get poor the poor die the rich got richer I'll tell you where my knowledge is and you can check this out with the FBI they had me for the buming in Chicago over there on the North side Roston Motors this place like covered a whole block when this building come down and I went to trial on in 1983 right there in Chicago they helped me for 13 months in the MCC Correctional Center there I didn't put a brick across the sidewalk I put everything inside the building that's how good it was they knew I'd done it everybody else knew I'd done it everything's just yeah right there I was already doing 20 years for the chap shop operation and they wanted me to plead guilty they'd give me another 20 and running concurrent they told me my words was [ __ ] you put me on trial I went to trial Jimmy gardo my partner he wound up pleading guilty first he was going to beef against me there's another party Luke cavalero better known as blind Louie when we was young and he we grew up together his name was bad boy Louie and when I say bad he was bad but as we got older and went into crime life everything else we separated for a long time then we got back together but they called him blind Louis blind Louie we moved him out to Arizona from the Chicago area he lived there in Elmer matter of fact they that a thing on him on ABC one night about they were interviewing him and talking to him about him living and this and that and must be heard being blind he told him he said it's very hard for me to get by says but I have to struggle he don't know they got cameras out back showing his swimming pool in the backyard All The Cadillacs in the driveway he's got a beautiful home a three $400,000 home and he's struggling and he's struggling yeah we moved him out there anyway but while we're out there and I'm on trial he got a call from Louie Louie hook they got him hooked up to talk to Louie in the MCC at Chicago there where he was being held out on Bond and they told him if you testify against Jimmy you don't have to worry about going to prison he said you don't never testify against him and so Jimmy guardo refused to testify against me I was a quitt to the case okay you ever heard of operation Mongoose oh yeah who hasn't that was that was the Nexus wasn't yeah that's where it all came together yeah they had a whole bunch of them there yeah they had a whole bunch of different programs I can't remember the names of all them but they had several of them did you ever meet L there L Del no that picture of you uh with with with the guy that did tip it where was that taken New Orleans New Orleans yeah New Orleans uh in 1961 no that was in 19 and uh 62 late 62 were you 21 that time no no uhuh 20 oh 62 you were 62 yeah how old you know right out born in 42 how I I'm 61 fixed to go 62 you January right yeah January you just a year older than that yeah um oh yeah about that the uh you you said the American people I think they don't really care about solving or KN the truth about the JFK assassination there's like I think they do but their government just covering it up and I think people I think people are tired of hearing about it I really do that's why I tried to convince Bob to go with something else I told Bob I said man you want let's do a couple of stories out of South America I said man I got some good stuff down there but bobing didn't want no part of it heing about it yeah huh they are not tired of hearing about it I mean that's my own belief all shows are yeah yeah it's all the same I watched another two hours last night on the American Experience Monday night I watched three hours and I watched two more hours of it last night and like what I had told Pamela before a long time ago about JFK when he met with crew Chap and we talked about it yesterday like they even had it on TV how crew chap talked down to him and he walked out of the me they showed the actual footage of him coming out of the meeting and getting the car they had to help him in the car he was stunned and like I told him he wasn't as big a war hero as everybody said they finally admitted it on TV they said Monday night that uh JF Kennedy was not the big was not the big war hero that everybody made him out to be H he lost his ship yeah I know ship hell PDO P Jimmy tell them about the Bay of Pigs or the Cuban missile missile crisis not really necessary that BL everybody was so concerned about going to nuclear war all right you know Ed P Wilson right you've heard of him he was with O and I back then Office of nabal Intelligence all right he was pretty tight that time with Frank Sturgis but he knew about it the Nabor intelligence people knew about this when uh Kennedy went and made crew champ okay he made an agreement nobody in that this whole country never knew it and they didn't want the country to know about it he made an agreement to take our missiles out of turkey that time if creap take his missiles out of Cuba okay they agreed to do this they put the block up the whole face he panicked the whole country and thinking we're going to nuclear war as far as I'm concerned was made before yeah the agreement was made before the blockade okay once the blockade was up and the ships in rout it's too late to do anything but they had the one ship I guess coming with more missiles and it pulled up to the blockade and then they backed off they turned around and they went away so that was just a to save face to get there was another first just like the Maddox just a deal remember the Maddox oh yeah okay another one of those deals there phony deal another phony deal how how do you know this is true what you're telling me well what I heard was like Wilson heard it I don't know I was told that uh Wilson he heard it he got it through the Office of Naval intelligence and he had talked with Frank Sturges about it and I Frank when they was talking Frank me nuclear war what do you mean how do you know you know I'm concerned at this point too yeah then Frank told me and I says you're [ __ ] me and he said noce I'm serious I'm telling you how it is ain't going to be no nuclear war we relax forget about it cuz they already knew the phon I told my mother don't worry about it m what do you know you're a kid what do you know she heard me swear on the street or something and a woman is around she run out of the house with a broom chasing me up down the street beating me with a broom up down 22nd Avenue There Goes My Legacy oh man well are they going to come when it's time how does this work whenever you're ready to go we can go out there and tell them sh unless if if you're get are you getting tired no man well I was going to say drinks but I noticed you're not drinking you that I wanted to meet you for a long time okay I'm I wanted to meet you for a long time when Pam told me that women got you and you was going to do the interview I was totally excited about it I had two things in my mind I said I got to ask you two things how kid is I got to ask you about Gordon gry Majestic 12 that's it I think well I think you'll find that when I send you this alien agenda book and and let me tell you something I just got through writing an endorsement for a book that's not yet published it's by some doctor guy really smart and it's a real well-written academic book but here's what he says and you know it's true you cannot understand any of the world politics or the world events or the policies that's going on today unless you understand about the UFOs and the ET presence here and most people go oh [ __ ] and they set it aside and then they wonder why is this going on why is this like this why is this like this well they don't have a big part of the equation yeah so when you get alien agenda that'll yeah kind of fill in some H did you ever read the golf VI sightings oh yeah I read that one I read that fasc with that Golf Breeze Golf Breeze that's what a g you know where Hub field is right next to egund it's a little private Airfield there right by the CIA right next egland Air Force Base well I have been to Lantana mhm where they had the little prison down there yeah and they got the little strip mhm that's kind of closed up now but oh that's right do uh do you recognize the name uh Pearson oh yeah pilot mhm you know his real David David Pearson yeah it's TSH py yeah yeah yeah Tosh and I went down there mhm and I got hold of uh I actually got hold of one of the old guards there and he told me he said yeah it was kind of ond says we had all the county prisoners over here and said we had a contract with the federal government to put federal prisoners over here he said but they come and go yeah yeah but we had a lot of we had a lot of uh sneaky aircraft flying out HB fil there only flew out at nighttime yeah that was another one of those cover bases mhm very very cover I got to tell you a funny story down there and this that machine ain't running is it I think he's out of tape yeah good [Music]