back when the game first launched I remember how all the lore that we had was pointing towards Ryan daughter being the cner like the only person responsible for the conry and cataclysm in the whole mess that followed and now we have five of her five Sinners who appear to be responsible for the events of the cataclysm or at least five people responsible for not stopping an existing cataclysm so today I want to talk about these guys because I have a surprising amount to say and speculate about and I think you guys will find it very interesting because apparently Apollo hit me in the face of the DodgeBall A couple years ago now as always time stamps spoiler warning citations attributions and links to related content will be in the description box while post video notes and Corrections can always be found in the pinned comment now then let's hop aboard this crazy train and take a trip to Sin City so let's talk about this dodgeball that hit me back in 2021 I made a theory about domains and I tried to argue that the reason that there were five rings above every petrified tree was because there were five Abyssal archons cuz see in the Gnostic book the Apocrypha of John the Demi urge is said to have created 12 total archons seven to rule the heavens and five To Rule The Abyss the seven Heavenly archons are easy to spot cuz they're labeled as archons and we've met them but the five Abyssal ones eluded me so at the time I thought they might be the dead archons since five of the original Heavenly archons perished but it turns out they were the Sinners the whole time a perfect example of right answer wrong math the Sinners are Rin daughter voner rier cogi and Herer all names with ties to Norse mythology which is fitting given that they're all Conan and that seems to to be the Conan's primary inspiration danne says that he and the Sinners were once tasked with stopping the vinster king from continuing to rock the foundations of the world it seems as though leaving the king unchecked would have brought about a great disaster but the five Sinners couldn't resist the Allure of the abyss and divided amongst themselves a power that could destroy the world transcending their Humanity in the process danne didn't participate in whatever they did and he was unable to stop the impending cataclysm on his own which is likely what the abyss twin was referring to when they said danne failed to protect the people of during the Wii will be reunited quest line now you remember how I called those Sinners the Abyssal archons I know they're not actually called that in game but I'm going to roll with the idea so stick with me so each of the seven Heavenly archons have a nosis and the nosis are the remains of the third descender one of the most powerful types of life forms found in tat but if hoyo is going the 12 archon route with five in the abyss then it's reasonable to assume that they possess their own type of nosis now I believe this is the world shattering power that they divided between themselves that Dane ions and since noes are the remains of a dead deity it would be reasonable to assume that the Abyssal variety came from the remains of a deity as well most likely the vinster king now there are quite a few candidates for the identity of the vinster king but there's one in particular that I think makes the most sense based only on the information that we currently have and that candidate is neong the Dragon King here's my logic in Norse mythology there's an enormous serpent named NE hog that lives beneath the roots of the world tree and gnaws away at these roots with the intent to topple the entire thing which is bad because the world tree kind of holds the whole world together and if it falls it marks the end of the world that's why the arrival of nehog on the surface Heralds the beginning of Ragnarok the Twilight of the Gods the Apocalypse at the end of the world so with that in mind Ki bear tells us the purpose of the Lum of Fate is to weave new lay lines but the thing is Lay lines as they exist right now are the roots of eril now if we assume that mtil is a completed Loom of Fate that's operated by Celestia something I made a case for in this video and eril is also the world tree then a loom of Fate is basically just a seed that will eventually grow into a world tree that controls Fate by you know weaving the lay lines this is why a Luma fate can only make new lay lines and not extend or alter existing ones trees only really have control over their own root systems but if manil is Celestia's Loom of fate and fate is the system by which Celestia controls the world according to Net's character stories then who would detest this system more than the original ruler of the world The Dragon King neong and that would make neong neog and I find this idea rather compelling see nuet calls neong the heavenly father in his voice lines so in my video on Spirit veins I made the case for nalong to be a shenlong or rather a Heavenly Dragon now shenlong don't really exist in Norse mythology because they're Chinese but Norse mythology does have dragons known as Lindor worms and Neath hog is the most prominent of all the lind worms and the best part is that lindorm seem to resemble Chinese dragons like shenlong's quite a bit like in physical representations both are long Serpentine and frequently depicted without wings yet are still able to fly makes for really good cultural overlap and thanks to a pep we also know that at some point during the war between the dragons and Celestia that neong left to retrieve Forbidden Knowledge from the depths of the Abyss so associating him with vinster which means Darkness makes sense because dark powers are generally associated with the abyss and rocking the foundations of the world as Dane describes it certainly sounds a lot like heril getting its roots ruffled also as a fun little eological side note the German word nebble vinster is a compound noun made up of the words nebble for fog and vinster for dark so dark fog the word neong also seems to have similar etymology with neble also coming from fog and lung likely coming from lungo which means light his name is light fog pretty fitting if he's a light dragon from Heaven which means we have nebble vinster for dark fog and neong for light fog and both are Kings and boy do I love me some pun impact actually this kind of reminds me of how asaha was also sealed beneath a tree just like neog as the seal weakened he even lured several miners towards the location of his seal in an effort to break it kind of like the vinster king in the cers asaha even had two versions of himself a light version in kjun and a dark version in J would that make Jang Lee an allegorical primordial one in this case like he is a representative of Celestia after all hm smells a bit like foreshadowing to me it's also worth pointing out that the dragon qu tree that aaha is sealed under has started to fuse with him so the tree is now literally his tail which also means we might have been fighting him in his realm of Consciousness which I find interesting given how we interacted with Ki bear inside of his own Realm Of Consciousness and if this really is allegorical foreshadowing for the Dragon King being trapped beneath the world tree then it might be possible that he was also starting to merge with eril I know that seems unlikely since he would be full of things like Forbidden Knowledge and other things that eril is really sens to and you know the last time it got infected with that kind of stuff ruga just had to delete herself in order to fix it but it's also worth pointing out that the roots of irman Soul go all the way into the depths of the Abyss so I think it's pretty possible and there's one more thing that makes me think the vinster king is neong or rather neble vinster Neath hog coils around the world trees Roots while an eagle named rest velger lives in the top branches now for the record Celestia is almost exclusively associated with birds when it comes to animal imagery so you probably know where this is going there's this other character a squirrel called ratat toar who runs up and down the tree carrying messages between Neath hog and ruseler and the name ratar literally means traveler and sure okay celesti is asleep right now so the traveler can't exactly give them any messages unless Pon is like their voicemail system but it's not like they're giving any information to the Dragon King directly although the abyss twin might cuz like if the Sinners are affiliated with the vinster King even if it's just a loose connection and the Abyss twin is associated with the abyss order which was inspired by one of the Sinners then perhaps the abyss twin is the other half of ratat toar the one who relays messages to neog and reporting to the vinster king would explain why the abyss twin is called the prince or princess I'm just saying now that might be all I have to say about the vinster king for now but we are nowhere near being close to done with all of this stupid mess of Norse mythology now we have to take a closer look at the Sinners themselves and we're most familiar with Ry daughter so let's start with her Ry daughter is albo's master and mother an alchemical genius and a member of the hexen circle her name comes from the famous opera by Vagner nalangan lead which is also what the dragon king neong is likely named after in the First Act of this Opera there are three maidens who live in the Ry River protecting their father's gold their father is the god of the Ry River so he is the Ry father Ry daughter is named after these Ry maidens her name literally means daughter of the river Ry and fun fact the Rin river region is where rhinestones were invented they were made of glass and treated in a unique way to make them resemble real Stones which is why albo Likens his own creation to the process of glass flowing during the Shadows amid snowstorm event cuz you know he was a synthetic testu baby a homunculus so if humans are real gemstones then he considers himself a rhinestone something like an imitation Rin daughter also goes by the title gold and is an extremely skilled Alchemist responsible for creating several Fel dragons elanus and Duren as well as albo and allegedly the rift wolves her Creations were why so many of the effects of the cataclysm were attributed to her and as I've already mentioned she's a prominent member of the hexen circle which is why I'm not going to talk about her much more than this because the Imaginarium Theater which is also coming out later this patch is hexen circle themed and I imagine that we're going to get more information on her there so I'd like to you know postpone this analysis for later moving on caloi is a fellow we're fairly familiar with he's the master of skirk and by association the master of child since the power of the foul Legacy comes from him now in a recent video I pointed out that his name comes from the fires of ser and C's most prominent role in mythology is as the harbinger of Ragnarok the Nordic version of the Apocalypse at the end of the world C's arrival in the battlefield is preceded by a seemingly endless winter called fimble veter and I think fimble vet might be what the fatou project stoua is based on since stoa means extreme cold and the project also involves child so by proxy this whole project stoia thing could very well get Cal Loi involved and therefore trigger Ragnarok also worth pointing out that there are quite a few visual similarities between child's foul Legacy and the abyss Lings this was always a bit confusing to me but now it makes sense caloi is a sinner with Abyssal Powers which probably grants him a more powerful transformation ability so if Child is This powerful with the fowl Legacy then imagine what ctal Loi can do I think rer has been done a great disservice in the localization in English their title is rasher of sari which just means like Avenger of Solari but the Chinese is way more straightforward it's just moonhunter a title like this immediately makes you think of you know hunting moons or people affiliated with the moons like I don't know people from the Crimson Moon Dynasty theoretically speaking Rivier should be from the eclipse Dynasty and they don't like the Crimson Moon Dynasty and because this title is affiliated with him specifically I wonder if the moon that he hunted was of great importance like the king of the Crimson Moon Dynasty I don't have a real solid basis for this Theory but river is named after a figure from The volsunga Saga and in that story Riv successfully gets the revenge for their own father's murder now if we assume that a moon killed River's father or like someone from the Crimson Moon Dynasty did then having them be called the moon Hunter makes a lot of sense to me especially if the person responsible for their father's murder was a person of very high standing like I said before like a king or a knight I don't know so if the Chinese is so straightforward why then did they choose rasher of sari sari could come from a word like Solunar which means son and moon but it could also be a compound noun where Soul as son and nari is like an alternate form for narfi who was killed and later had his entrails used to bind his father Loki so if that's the case then rir would be the son of nari and the grandson of Loki both of whom belong to the eclipse or the black Sun Dynasty because that is actually another name for the eclipse Dynasty black Sun for those of you who don't know the dyes of cona are actually named by real celestial bodies that are down there their moon is a Crimson Moon and and their son is a black or dark son but anyway to make things more confusing narfi is also the name of the father of the personification of Knight which might make V's title more like Avenger of the night sun or again the Dark Sun so while the Chinese player base got a very straight forward title in Moon Hunter we got the opposite of sun Avenger it is the same meaning but it's quite a trip to get there that said there might be another reason why they chose Avenger of sari it could be a very heavily veiled fishal reference after all fal's full name is fishal Von llas nidor also known as fishal of the sky castle narid where in narid Dort could refer to descendants of narfi or nari and I'm basing that on the fact that in Chinese the Dort of narid Dort is the same as the one used for daughter and Rin daughter Fel is also very likely to be Conan but I don't really want to get into that right now so I'm going to link some theories Down Below in the description if you want to learn more about it but besides that FAL is also called the princessin deong and uh princessin princessin that's a pun my buddy Schwan discovered and fishel's first name Fel might be a reference to the fisher king from Aran Legend now he was also called The cner King because the French word for fish and sinner were homonyms and considering we're talking about five Abyssal Sinners here it fits pretty well honestly the more I look at this the more official references I find so I'm going to stop veter fascinates me in the context of our previous discussion about neong ratar and heres velger because in nor mythology veter fer is a falcon that sits a top heres felger's head which is a very funny mental image if you think of heres velger as Celestia but what it probably means is that verer is the CER quintet's Eye in the Sky which is totally on point because he's a Visionary someone who's capable of seeing the prophecies that affect the entire world so basically he can see what Celestia sees the fate of the world itself hence his metaphorical position at top its head he's also danne's brother which I was not expecting now in Norse mythology velner is often thought to go by a different name vetner a Golden Rooster that's found in the branches of the world tree sometimes perched a top R felger's head so you can see why the scholars would think they were the same thing now according to Fel vinsol vid offner brings a great deal of trouble to serter and Sara serter is obviously supposed to be ceral Loi but I don't quite know who Sara is supposed to be in the context of genin I think it's relevant though because Sara is The Keeper of the only sword that can kill vitner but what amuses me about this is that the name verer means wind bleached or pale storm while vitner means according to Bellow at least tree snake and this tree snake bird can only be killed by a very particular sword that's owned by S Mara interesting then that this guy's brother daniff is named after a sword that can only be sheathed after it kills its Target and that danne's constellation is snake ring while his title is bow keeper like in the branches of a tree and also that Dane wants revenge against his brother so if Sara is The Keeper of the only sword that can kill veter and danne is a sword does that mean that sinara is their mother food for thought anyway veeter's voice was the one that we heard when we saw the giant crystal in the chasm which I think kind of threw some people for a loop because many people myself included theorized that this Crystal might have been desit or man but that was also over a year ago and we've learned a lot since then and before anybody asks no I am not upset that this Crystal has seemingly no con to dash I'm actually kind of excited about the implications behind the similarity and at the moment I have two theories about it the first is the most reasonable and the most likely both desit and veter were sealed using the same or similar methods desit was full of forbidden knowledge that no one could seem to dispose of safely which meant that he needed to be forcibly contained instead the Sinners on the other hand obtained a world shattering power from a dark King which could very possibly be forbidden knowledge or something similar to it especially since Dan's Liff suggests it came from the abyss I think that's a pretty fair and reasonable explanation but it would be very unlike me to just leave it at that you come here for conspiracy theories and didn't foil hat nonsense so here's Theory number two the other less likely possibility is that this Crystal is DD but the explanation is full on crack so again fair warning the idea came from a discussion I was having with my buddies Crystal Marie and schan and it's more entertaining than plausible but again I just want to share it okay so in the book hearts desire the shopkeeper tells the story of the crystal heart and it's essentially crystallized emotions left behind by an adeptus after they die and for the purposes of this Theory I'm going to extend the idea to include Gods as well because this is a Lea book and so Lea would mostly just talk about adep ey now later in the book we learned that you can actually peer into these Illuminating crystals and you can see all manner of Visions kind of like a scry glass or a crystal ball that sounds like the perfect feature for someone like a Visionary and then towards the end of the book the shopkeeper actually speaks directly to the stone itself which suggests that the stone is still somewhat conscious or at least aware of what's going on around it so the idea is this this Crystal is des's crystal heart but it's veter that's speaking to us through it it's kind of like how Nicole never shows up in person but instead manifests only when a certain type of teacup appears as a disembodied voice from the sky do you really think Nicole is the teacup no and I think the same logic might be able to be applied to veret fer he might not be the crystal the crystal just might be his teacup this just might be how Visionaries operate I'm going to go out a little bit further on this limb assuming that veter is vid offner and is a Golden Rooster that sits at top the head of a great eagle and Scholars theorize that vid offner represents the Eagle's wisdom in some way and we look at the crystal in the chasm as the remains of desit that verir is peering through Allah heart's desire well the name of the eagle is heres velger which means corpse swallower and he suggested to guard the gates of hell and desit was the god of the sky and the god of the Dead having much in common with the Egyptian Osiris which feels rather thematic maybe more so to me though because I think D was actually the heir to the throne of Celestia but that's a theory for another time I've had a year to study this Scarlet King and I'm going to make the wildest Theory I can so yeah like I said pretty improbable kind of crack but still really fun to think about okay so our last sinner is hoper whose name can either mean the sage or the crying God it's one of the many Kennings for the Norse god Odin which might confuse some of you since man is also considered a kenning for Odin and man is already a character in genin so you might be wondering which one is actually Odin or are they both Odin does that mean her oper is King man I don't think so see we've just been assuming that man was supposed to represent Odin when it's equally likely that man could have been another god named tier now many scholars believe that the epithet for man or Ally belonged to tier but was later associated with Odin instead regardless of the claims real world veracity I think this is the route that hoyo is taking here's the logic man and Man soul share a name so we could assume that eril is 's tree in the same way we assume that yrel means Odin's tree since is another one of Odin's names however this fuark Rune is also called tier and is commonly identified with the god of the same name the Rune itself represents a spear which is very fitting since Accord according to the legend of the shattered hrid man was the name of the first Divine hrid that pierced the axis Mundi and connected the nine Realms so tier is a spear and a spear is a hrid but the best part of this idea is that if you lay three tier runes on top of each other they form a tree an eril and this bind Rune is thought to be used to invoke the god tier himself and since the world tree is the axis the world revolves realm that makes the world tree the axis Mundy if Ur was the Lance that pierced the tree then it makes sense to call it manil and if you combine this idea with some comments from Pierro things get a little more interesting see Pierro was a royal mage of cona and he had beef with a bunch of sages who advised King man at least that's what he says in the mocking mask to quote since my level of learning could not compare with the sages I failed to earn the favor of the previous ruler he also comments on these sages in a mocking manner in the winter Nights loso trailer but the thing is both instances of the word Sages in Chinese aren't explicitly plural they're actually singular and while the Chinese language isn't too strict about plurality I think this might matter because the name Herer literally means Sage singular so I think it's quite possible that this entire time Pi has been talking about one guy specifically a single Sage he's not talking about a group of individuals he's talking about Herer so my hypothesis is that pi and harop were both advisers to King man but Pio couldn't compare to Herer so man follows Hero's advice instead of Piero's which probably led to everything going horribly horribly wrong because her oper ended up becoming a sinner full of Abyssal power and potentially causing if not just failing to prevent the cataclysm that followed which is probably why Pierro now mocks him and calls himself a fool as a satirical nod to the foolishness of the so-called Sage if a Sage's wisdom leads to disaster then a Fool's wisdom must lead to success or something I also think that Herer was a sage that hung from eril as described in the silver twig this Sage gained knowledge of runes and after this the Kingdom built along ER Soul's Roots was able to catch a glimpse of the Secrets From Beyond the sky the kingdom here should be cona and we have multiple mentions of cona having caught a glimpse of what's beyond the firmament I'm betting that hoper was the one responsible for obtaining this knowledge and proposing what to do with it or at least he was heavily involved and then in Piner we have mention of the sages again and this time it's referring to one of several sages but it could still be referring to Herer telling the king a story about beings that come from Beyond the sky because that's pretty on theme with everything else we know about him so far but the king in this story is like I don't get it do whatever you want which falls in line with what I've been saying that it actually feels like the sage Herer is tricking or manipulating King man and that's why I don't think Herer and man are the same person even though both names are considered Kennings for the same God I think man is supposed to reference te and her oper was supposed to reference Odin now all that said I must recognize that man is described as having only one eye just like Odin in ka's letter from the hidden Strife event which would suggest that he is more Odin likee than I've been arguing for but then again en Fortis alri the man who had become the Regent ruler in place of man during the cataclysm also lost his left eye and besides that both pi and Dan have ties to the royal family and they both cover their right eyes so this might not be a feature unique to at all possessing only one eye or covering a single eye might be a symbol of status wisdom or rank in cona so calling someone one eyed might be like calling someone Blue Blood to refer to them as Noble and it would also explain why people like clar halfdan and Cari bear don't have this besides I still don't think that the effes carried by the abyss order are of ir anymore because man seems to be merely complicit in the events of the cataclysm and the statuettes seem to imply a more active role for their representative just take a look at this line that reads see my child all that lies under the Throne of Heaven shall be destroyed by upheaval the Eternal peace of the pitch Dark Void shall Embrace us all these just sound more like the words of an evil mastermind to me and not of someone who's simply been convinced to participate in a premeditated plan the Laughing Man Has a really cool alternate take on Herer and man though so do check out his video later Link in the description but as a side note I've also been wondering if harop toer isn't ka's father this is a wild and somewhat baseless speculation but hear me out first off in ka's secret letter from the hidden Strife event his father says remember always that it was the alri clan who did not have Royal Blood who stepped in as Regents when the strength of the oneeyed king man failed though we could not restore cona to life we of the Albert clan should lead lives as those who Blaze like fire rather than those who wallow in the Embers which again have the same kind of vibe as the lines from the dark statuettes of the Abyss order albe it a little less unhinged it's like ka's father had expectations of King man that weren't met which would be very fitting for harop toer if he truly was trying to manipulate the king like have been theorizing it also establishes that the alricks wanted to restore cona which is likely what Ki Bear's Loom of Fate is intended to accomplish after all the abyss order wishes to restore the Homeland right and they're responsible for making him into the loom of Fate alri is Kaya's last name and it's also the name of the door from the Opera nalangan lead that becomes king of the nalong after seizing the Rin gold and turning it into a cursed ring if harop toer is an alrick then the gold seized would be the world shattering power or something similar that I mentioned earlier ironically though daniff was actually found during the cataclysm clutching a ring and in the Opera Odin spends most of his time searching for or trying to seize the ring from other people so that could actually be a potential plot line but in genin and Fortis alri actually became the Regent ruler after King man was rendered unable to govern during the cataclysm what's funny is that en forus is the real name of the fisher king or sinner King from the aan legend that I talked about earlier and a regent is pretty close to a King now enorus must be related in some way to clar since they're both alricks and clar founded the abyss order and the abyss order was inspired by voner who is a sinner just like Herer who is named after Odin and Odin was the oneeyed bearded God sometimes depicted with horns on his helmet and an effigy resembling Odin is carried by higher ranked Abyss order memb and as previously hypothesized Herer was most likely a member of the Royal Court alongside Pierro you with me so far good now Kaa has a lot of Raven or Crow symbolism from his references to the Fable the bird and borrowed feathers to his network of treasure hoarders who bear The Raven Insignia to his name which may be derived from a Norwegian word for Jacka Kaaya and also his dark blue coloring it's not exactly be fitting of a peacock like the one in his constellation which is also oneeyed by the way plus he has self-proclaimed linguistic Powers which seems to let him speak hillian and he's been theorized to be conspiring with the abyss order ever since the first AR Conquest when he meant missing during inabus order Invasion I mean Kaa even knows that the Sinners are all that's left of cona now Odin has two faithful Raven Companions hugan and mugan thought and memory and every day these Ravens fly into the world and collect information which they then relay back to Odin adding to his wisdom so my thought process is that the albre family are the Ravens of harop or perhaps harop toer was an alri himself like I mentioned earlier perhaps he was the eldest and should have become Regent instead of an foris but he was too busy doing sinner things to take over and if he is an alric then he could be ka's father after all Ka says he inherited his eye patch if Rob toer is one eye then this could be a reference to him plus there's this one birthday art of Kaa that's suspiciously like this portrait of Odin it certainly seems plausible but there's another idea that scratches my brain when k 's father left him at the dawn Winery he told Kaa that he was the last hope for cona and then vanished but given the sheer number of similarities that people from all over the Internet have been pointing out between Ka and Ki bear which become even more apparent if you play through ka's hangout I am very suspicious of Ki bear being used as scaffolding for the loom of fate and Kaa being con's Last Hope like is it not possible that Kaa is also a candidate for Luma fate scaffolding like a backup plan for if the Ki bear Loom fails but if this was the intention I wonder if Kaa possessing a vision makes him ineligible for the task cuz like Renee says that obtaining a vision must be avoided at all costs because it binds you to the fate of the world and if you were supposed to become a brand new loom of Fate free from the previous Loom then being bound to the previous one seems problematic well I suppose it doesn't really matter for right now this is all just wild speculation on my part and you know what that's more or less everything I wanted to share for right now but while we're thanking all the budding Scholars that support this mess of a channel I have have one more observation to share during the last ETO music event there was a scene with a and moiko where they talked about a war specifically the resistance war on inauma and at the time I mentioned it was probably foreshadowing for Ragnarok using project stoua as my justification I'm a bit more confident about this now since we also have the nehog neong vinster king hypothesis in hand and the fact that one of the current events as of time of recording is about preparing for war and if we go a little bit further back to the last wind Bloom Alice commented on a hypothetical war that could break out between All Nations and that's pretty concerning in context given that there are Visionaries like Nicole sitting at the table with her what have you seen Nicole what do you know well I think we can all agree that war is coming nlin is soon I'm excited and I hope you are too so thank you all so much for watching I'm going to catch you in the next one so take care [Music]