yeah perfect perfect so all right Thomas do you do you have a preference do you prefer Tom is it okay to call you Thomas oh yeah Tommy Tommy's good Tommy okay perfect so my name is Serena nice to meet you um just so you're both aware the name on the screen Ellie um that is our intern in Chicago she's just kind of a silent camera off Observer just part of her experience and learning more about what we do um so she won't be participating she's just kind of sitting in on summaries today um Tommy is it okay if we record the session it sounds like your dad might have to step out so it would be something that would just be available to both of you in case he needs to leave early if we're still going oh yeah that's perfect okay great um so I can record it to the cloud and send you guys a link but I could also Marty give you like recording permission if you wanted to record it to your device I don't know it works best for you uh yeah what uh let's do it to the cloud to be safe uh we know that works sure yeah you want me to record it to the cloud yes please thanks okay perfect recording in progress great so it'll go to the cloud I'll send you guys a link once it processes I think it usually takes maybe like 30 60 Minutes um I do have an appointment right after this so there's a chance I might not send you the link until a little bit later today um and then I think I think you have like up to a month to access it and to download it and then it's deleted something like that um but anyway so happy to meet both of you again my name is Serena I'm the director of the Chicago lab of the Johnson counter Research Foundation um so this morning Tommy will'll be going over the results of your aptitude testing together we are going to talk about your scores and what they mean and how they could look in play in a variety of career related Pursuits um before I go any further though talk to me about um what led you to seek out our services kind of like what your what you're hoping to get out of this um I think it was like my my dad found it for uh my sister and then my sister and my mom took it uh and then I'm going to be a senior this year and so I kind of wanted to see uh see what they thought of it and I talked they talked to me about it and then my dad just signed me up for it uh so I kind of wanted to see uh the opportunity that it was uh and see how it went for me um and I'm happy I did it was uh uh it was like I didn't really you know decide on doing it is something that was presented to me to be able to do have oportunity to do but uh uh yeah I'm happy that I did okay so a lot of times it kind of becomes a family affair where other people in the family have tested sometimes even like Generations so um sounds like your mom and your sister were happy Dad was happy too with kind of their experience so I'm excited to talk with you about all of your talents to hopefully give you some helpful information as you start to make decisions um are you you're an econ major correct yeah okay are you thinking about grad school are you not there yet just kind of thinking like what what's going to be next once you're done yeah I think I'm GNA just kind of go find go for a job or something I don't think I'm going to go to grad school at all okay and that's totally fine too just kind of checking in to see sort of like where your head space is so I can personalize our conversation this morning so a few things I like to reiterate at the beginning of every discussion just to make sure that we're all on the same page when it comes to the limitations of our services um keep in mind that I am never speaking to your intelligence or your level of skill that's not what aptitudes are aptitudes are natural abilities that exist within you so with that just be sure that you aren't assigning labels to your performance on the tests um there's no such thing as a good or a bad score on an aptitude test you cannot pass or fail an aptitude test we talk about scores in terms of being low average and high and a high score would indicate the presence of an area of innate ability or Talent those are your aptitudes and when we talk about your aptitudes together this morning keep in mind that they create needs so there has been and will continue to be this kind of consistent drive to use your scores we talk about using scores in the workplace just because adults spend a lot of their time working um you are a fully realized human being I acknowledge that and hopefully your professional goals aren't just to exist to work I personally don't think that sounds super satisfying so we can also talk about work life balance in terms of hobbies and Leisure Pursuits too ideally you're using all of your scores in the workplace not always possible so that's where the life outside of work comes into play and we emphasize having an outlet for your aptitude simply because it makes you happy to use your talents that's when you feel career satisfaction contentment when you're not using your scores consistently that's when you start to feel Restless to satisfy just kind of like you're missing something so as we go along together this morning I'm going to throw a lot of examples your way jobs that I think you might like in theory based upon your performance on the tests and our research I think it goes without saying but it's not my job to tell you what to do with your life my job is to give you information so you can make that informed decision about your future whatever that might be um so nothing is prescriptive nothing is exhaustive too just in the sense that I I couldn't possibly show you every single way in which you could use your scores in a career or a hobby this is the starting point learning more about yourself taking this information to help guide decisions you might make for the rest of your life because these scores are stable throughout the lifetime so even though you are what 21 right now you can reference these when you're 45 50 65 entering retirement and starting to think about okay so what should I do with this if I'm not working um if you want to take notes feel free don't feel like you have to there is a 28 page PDF coming your way specifically related to your performance on the test there will be bullet pointed lists of the jobs we discuss as well should have left with a copy of our book too we'll talk about how to kind of wrangle that towards the end of our discussion U but a lot of resources that you should have and that are also coming your way so don't feel like you have to take notes especially since we have this recording as well I won't stop you if you want to take notes uh but please don't feel like you have to all righty so I am going to share my screen and what I'd like to do first is just start by going over the general structure of the bar graph so how to read what's in front of us and then we'll start actually going into to the interpretation um Tommy I think you're on your phone so it's not absolutely essential that you can see every single one of these numbers if you can just kind of generally see things how it's laid out that's totally fine and this will be sent to you after the meeting too I know it's kind of difficult sometimes with like zoom on an iPhone it might look kind of funky if you need to swipe away from me you don't have to see me for this conversation to be helpful all righty so over here to the left under standard test these would be the names of the different categories of tests that you completed so just kind of generally how things are clustered together based on some sort of common factor that they're measuring so for example the tests of fine and gross motor skills clustered together here next column would be the names of all the different tests that you took the only exception to that would actually be right up at the top structural visualization is a composite score so that means that this particular aptitude structural visualization is assessed through a combination of your performance on the two tests listed below it so it's not a standalone test the next column here underscore score is the raw score so just looking at how many points you obtained on a particular test each test has a different maximum raw score in a different way which points are calculated so because of that you really can't compare raw scores across tests or across people so typically I'll say you can just disregard this column here it's not giving you a whole lot of meaningful data in isolation now these two areas here are going to be the most important to focus in on and that will kind of be the thrust of our conversation together this morning that would be the percentile and then its visual representation over to the right percentiles show us how you performed on a particular test compared to people about the same age as you that also took the test so again low average and high scores so the scores that exceed this gray line here would be considered to be your aptitudes your areas of innate ability or Talent so of course they'll be talking about those together this morning anything that falls in the average range would typically just suggest that you perform similarly to most people in your age group that took a test if you think about a bell curve most people kind of fall in that middle area right so per similarly to most people that took the test an average score isn't going to necessarily create that same drive for an outlet as a high score or that same sense of fulfillment when it's used you might enjoy maybe occasionally incorporating something related to an average score into the work that you do but because it's not going to give you that same sense of satisfaction I just don't want you to say prioritize it at the expense of a high score now low scores can in a couple different things sometimes a low score simply suggests that the test didn't come as naturally to you I would never tell you that you can't do something it really comes down to effort expenditure so the notion of how hard would you have to work at something in order to complete it so the thinking would really be like why do that to yourself why put yourself in a role where you're going against how you're hardwired I just don't think you'd be super happy um sometimes there's a little bit more of a categorical distinction when we talk about a low versus a high score so for example low inductive just means something very different than high inductive so where I can offer you a little bit more interpretation um some insight I will definitely do that as well from significant love scores questions about how to read this before we start talking about what it all actually means uh no nothing okay all righty so I like to lead with a discussion of personality so we're going to start down towards the bottom with word association so this was the test in which you heard 94 different words and you had to respond with the first word that you could think of so like City Chicago black white those kind of things this particular test is the only personality test that we give and this one is looking more so at your approach to work or work environments you might find to be most satisfying so people can score in one of three ways on this test so subjective if we think about personalities being that Continuum subjective is at one poll objective is at the other intermediate as the name implies Paul somewhere in the middle briefly subjective people so kind of the opposite of you these are the natural Specialists these are people that tend to prefer to work um in like highly autonomous roles don't necessarily need a lot of collaboration these are the people that would love to just kind of work remotely for all eternity don't need to see another person to feel engaged in their work now in contrast people that score objective people that score like you tend to really value breadth over depth when it comes to knowledge so for you I would encourage you to embrace a generalist approach in the work that you do having a lot of variety in your daily duties wearing a lot of different hats at work I think is going to be really satisfying for you this might be something you've started to notice about yourself as you've developed in terms of your education or even just kind of in your personal life you like knowing a lot of different things not that you know everything about something but maybe you know bits and pieces about a lot of different things kind of that um like intellectual knowledge-based versatility might be a point of Pride for you you like to be well-rounded and well read so think about taking that to the workplace I worry that if your role is kind of too Niche you're going to feel choked out by your job now it doesn't mean though that you can't specialize just be very aware of the like compounding effect of multiple tiers of specialization on each other so say you pivot say you go into counseling um say you want to work with young adults right like 18 to 25y olds say that's like your clinical area of emphasis uh maybe that's specialization enough so you see a lot of different diagnosis play around with a lot of different treatment modalities so a little bit of specificity but then variety within that I think that could still be very satisfying for you it's when you do age range presenting problem diagnosis treatment style that's when it starts to get more and more subjective a little too specialized for someone who craves that variety additionally we do conceptualize the objective scor such as you is being more of the natural collaborators so being part of a closeit department team based projects leadership and management oftentimes on a larger scale tends to be really enjoyable for people who score like you do it's it's because people who SC objective tend to Value having like a like a larger scope of impact for the work that they do so this could be managing 20 30 plus people uh nothing points specifically and directly to leadership and management so if you're thinking like I don't really know if I want to get involved in management it's not the end all BL of scoring objective for you it might be more about just connecting with your colleagues like collaboration kind of like projects together rather than management but you're still pretty young so if you haven't had a lot of opportunities to get involved in management might be worth kind of trying it out and if you hate it scratch it off the list and move on to something else but for young people I defin that score objective I definitely encourage them to at least give leadership a fair shot I'm talking a lot what do you think uh yeah that makes sense uh and kind of what I remember from those tests it makes sense that uh I did score more uh uh in the range that you're describing more objectively than I did subjectively and I think I could definitely uh see that part of uh my life and uh with like everything that I'm doing okay yeah so U with the objective personality kind of broadly when we talk about careers of course we talk about management like business management um HR I can see likeing Human Resources probably more within like the recruiting world I think just because it's going to involve again that breath of knowledge knowing bits and pieces about a lot of different departments engaging with a lot of different people um I do like education for you I could see you really liking teaching or coaching or training so that could even be within HR like onboarding or corporate training um I like admissions for you too you might like admissions um counseling we kind of touched on that but I do like counseling as long as there's still a little bit of that variety um sales project management kind of the essence of being objective you're wrangling so many different personalities from so many different departments and you might have to engage with people outside of the project to kind of generally explain what's going on or answer questions so there's that variety but then you also acknowledge kind of the the limitations of your understanding and when you need to hand it off to someone else questions or comments about personality before we move on no I don't think so okay Marty any questions no thank you okay wonderful so let's just keep going along so I do want to highlight all the high scores first first and then we'll probably just kind of scale it back up to the top and hit all of the remaining significant scores and I'm sorry if you can hear my puppy he is outside of the door right now being very dramatic and whining as if he's just totally neglected my husband and my oldest are home but apparently he only wants me and you don't want him in here so I'm sorry if you hear him right now I'm trying my best to ignore him all right so let's talk about numerical reasoning next so numerical reasoning was the test in which you were given a two-page packet with 30 strings of numbers you had to rapidly determine the pattern or the rule that took you from one number to the next and then solve for the next number in the string so numerical reasoning is really related to your ability to rapidly glean information from numerical data to really make sense of numbers it's that high level interpretation of numerical data this would be in contrast to something like number facility the test in which you were given the chips with the numbers printed on them and you arrange them into the correct equations that's more just number crunching like wrote mathematics this is not inputting data into a spreadsheet this is saying okay this is what the data is telling us we need to do this is a problem we need to plan for because the data is showing this might happen um really this suggests that numbers have great value to you you find great meaning in numbers you find comfort in numbers when you're not sure what to do you might find yourself going to data to help you make a decision so thinking back to uh when you were applying to undergraduate un I ities um maybe you know you were like okay like two dozen schools look great what do I do so maybe you go to the numbers you say okay so what is the acceptance rate what is the average ACT or SAT score um how many people are enrolled in this program what's the percentage of graduates that obtain employment in their field of studying you go to the numbers because they help you to make decisions so with that economics in theory does make great sense with your pattern I could see you still continuing to like that but it's not just about economics this could be Finance this could be market research I like marketing kind of broadly for you um but I think market research will probably be more enjoyable for you cuz it's less about just like spewing ideas but like this is what the feed this is the feedback that we're getting this is what the numbers suggest this is what we should do um I like public health I like nutrition dietetics um genetics counseling that's all about right the data and the predictions what's the likelihood that you're going to have some sort of maybe like somal anomaly abnormality happen with your child um like corporate philanthropy as well I do like that for you so think about again opportunities to maybe solve problems with numbers or make sense of [Music] data questions comments about this one uh no not really okay what do you think about your major so far you haven't really talked too much about it uh about economics yeah um I like it I think think it's pretty challenging but I think going into something in finance uh uh or something in like some sort of like wealth management uh or something like that I think uh definitely intrigues me a lot uh and I think economics is good for it because it's kind of uh a little bit broader and I'm kind of studying a lot more than just Finance uh so I like that aspect of it okay so you've noticed you kind of have a knack for data and for numbers yeah yeah and like during the testing I could tell like the all the the number thing was like the easiest thing for me for sure yeah and that's really how we conceptualize aptitudes these are things that come quickly and easily to you so again it's not about not being able to do something CU even with the tests in which you like scored low or average on um you completed the test but it's that speed part and actually with numerical reasoning the maximum score you can achieve is a raw score of 30 so you only missed two items on the entire test so came too quickly came too easily you were career I add add one thing here is uh Tommy Talk think about your you know sports betting and and this to me that falls right in line so Tommy you know pretty popular do with your phone and sports betting apps um Tommy's been pretty this been a fun hobby for him and he's had fun you know with it but but that's exactly what this is I I believe I don't know what you're Tak no totally absolutely that is D on because it's looking at the data like what kind of a season is this team having is this individual having what do I think is going to happen right did they start start out strong and then they're petering out do I think they're going to come back is that historically what they've done that's the data right there too so just like even broadly like sports statistics I like that a lot for you too definitely yes cuz that Marty that was totally right it's the data what does that suggest making predictions um having financial piece definitely so that could be something even if you don't move into like a sports statistics or like kind of a like a a broadcasting forecasting kind of field if this is something you enjoy doing just as part of your life outside of the workplace I like that a lot for you still go yeah yeah and this would I believe this I believe what he's doing in with numerical reasoning and in the sports betting is applicable it's showing oh you have a an ability over here that would be you could apply that over here in finance or you could apply that over here in um you know these other other areas yeah definitely so and sometimes the poll to use something is so strong that you find yourself drawn to hobbies that also use it even if you're using it consistently in the workplace and that's totally fine there's also that piece of just like a passion and interest and enjoyment so if it's something that you really like especially because you are so interested in athletics maybe if you're not doing a lot of that that in the workplace maybe that's incorporating the numerical reasoning and some of your passions too so absolutely it's not about kind of an either or where you're only using it at work or you're only using it in your hobbies if it's fulfilling to do it in both absolutely I would definitely encourage that it's still going to give you that fulfillment that excitement that contentment any other comments or questions about the numericals before we move on okay so let's talk about oh sure oh just I say no just making there might be a slight DeLay So I just heard you say uh and I didn't know if I lost you so I just wanted okay great let's talk about grip next so grip was the test in which um you were handed that dynamometer that plastic Contraption you squeezed it as hard as you could and it generated a rating of force in kilograms so grip it's interesting because grip isn't just about physical strength our research suggests that grip is really related to physical energy in the sense that people that score high in grips such as you have more energy than the average person have more physical energy that they need to release so for you you might find yourself maybe getting Wiggly when you're sitting down for too long I already saw you kind of like fidgeting and sort of adjusting the camera angle and moving around a little bit maybe you've noticed that like sitting like in a lecture hall type of situation for too long can be really challenging for you maybe in elementary junior high high school your teachers would give you a hard time because you were always fidgeting or kicking your leg or kind of zoning out it's hard to be sedentary for long periods of time when you're high grip so lots of different ways we could kind of wrangle this if you want to think about high grip sorts of fields to pursue um this would be like Property Management outdoor education um teaching Sports so I know that you're interested in athletics so even if you were like coaching kids even if it's not something that's like your primary money generating Endeavor U but something as a hobby cook chefs definitely score high in grip based upon our research um they're on their feet they work long hours personal trainers as well do tend to score high and grip um but you can have a desk job as a high grip person you just need to be very aware of your need to burn off energy throughout the day and to just kind of check in with yourself periodically so you could have a desk job because a lot of times when we're talking about some of these high numbers kinds of fields you might be in front of a computer for a good part of the day so you're just going to have to be really dedicated to Leading an active life so this might be going to the gym before after work this might be going for walks on your lunch break this might be um sitting on a stability ball or one of those Bal standing on a balanced board having a standing desk having an underd dust cycle or a walking pad taking calls while you're on the Walking pad just opportunities to burn off some energy throughout the day is going to be really helpful for you because you've probably noticed that if you are sitting for too long sometimes it feels like you're going to jump out of your skin or maybe you find yourself falling asleep in class as weird as it is to say there's something about that energy burning need where if your body has all this energy kind of pent up and it's not released it kind of goes into power saving mode and sort of shuts down that's just because you need to do something active so when you are so I'm guessing you're on summer break right now so when you are going into the school year maybe if you have like lecture hall just sit and listen sorts of classes back to back maybe you take the scenic group between classes you kind of cut through the quad you walk for a little bit before you go to the next class maybe when you're studying if you have to really intensely study and read and focus um you take breaks to go for a walk outside or stretch um just any opportunity to just do something active will help you feel focused what do you think you're 95th percentile grip so I'm assuming that this will sound pretty accurate to you do you think that this sounds accurate uh yeah I think so for sure okay how have you wrangled this so far cuz I'm guessing being an economics major it's a lot of like paperwork focus a lot of sitting a lot of theory just a lot of listening so how have you kind of wrangled this uh yeah I think um I think a lot of what I'll do when I'm doing homework or something is I'll like go on the treadmill or something and do some like incline walk while I while I'm like kind of like watching a video or watching like a lecture and then when I'm actually doing this stuff I just I'm able to sit sit down a little bit better and focus on it m no I love that you already do that definitely like you can be watching a video or reading something while you are on the treadmill or I had a boss who had um like her cycle with like her laptop propped up on it so she'd just be like cycling away while uh watching something or on a call so kind of combining the sedentary work with something more active absolutely um of course with the work to any opportunities for travel longer hours field-based work work outdoor High group people tend to love being outside I think that that would be really enjoyable for you all right questions about grip before we move on okay uh no so with regard to the rest of your scores let's just scale it back up to the top and work our way down so I will talk about any remaining significant scores if I skip over a test it's just really not pertinent to our discussion um excuse me you are welcome to read about those tests and the materials that went home with you I assure you though I won't skip over anything that's really vital to discuss together this morning so up at the top structural visualization that composite score we assess this aptitude through a combination of your performance on the wiggly block and paper folding tests Wiggly block probably one of the later tests that you took um this was a test in which you were given those heavy black wooden blocks and you had to kind of reassemble them into a rectangular shape as quickly as you could paper folding one of the earlier tests you completed um you were presented with those diagrams of square pieces of paper paper folded with the hole punch through them had to predict where those holes would be located when the paper was unfolded so generally speaking both of these tests are assessing for the same thing spatial abilities so visualizing objects in three dimensions rotating them in your mind when we talk about structural visualization as a whole when we talk about high scores so 70th percentile and Beyond these are those 3D spatial thinkers these are people that tend to prefer to work with literal things rather than abstract Concepts and ideas so these are the Architects the engineers so with architecture this would be like having like a tangible end product this would be going from blueprint to building construction when someone scores in the low range on structural visualization these are more of the 2D or non-spatial thinkers these are people that would tend to prefer to work with abstract Concepts and ideas rather than those literal things so these are people that would enjoy working like the humanity social sciences all of that now you're in kind of a special C here because you scored in the average range so I like to spend some time talking about that because you weren't high but you weren't fifth percentile either and we look at your scores your paper folding score was starting to Trend high right it was 65th percentile so I don't know if you've had a chance to look through the book yet it certainly wasn't a requirement leading up to this conversation but I would definitely encourage you to spend some time reading through the chapter in choosing intelligently on structural visualization it's going to give you a lot of really valuable information Beyond the scope of this conversation so for example here I have this pulled up I think this is Page 20 from the book that went home with you so just showing kind of generally how these very broad Fields how you could think about non-spatial average spatial high spatial applications could look so economics risk assessment I could see you liking that but also like these sorts of fields would be fair game as well so if anything non-spatial is appealing to you I think you could still really enjoy it but if you're thinking I don't know maybe I just want something that's a little bit more spatially loaded but not hardcore physics something like biology botney um real estate appraisal actually real estate appraisal I could see you liking that because there's going to be that numerical component to it right looking at the data and the numbers if you do I know we talked about counseling if there's an interest in working with people helping people in some kind of a capacity maybe more neuros pych than something like Neuroscience or Psychiatry so something that's going to offer a little bit an outlet for spatial abilities but not so spatially loaded that you feel like you're drowning does that make sense yeah I think so okay because for you it's it's about the visualization the Hands-On piece with Wiggly block maybe you've noticed the Hands-On manipulation of things is a little bit more challenging for you but when it comes to visualizing something or rotating it in your mind that might come more naturally to you so kind of understanding a map orienting yourself to the north when you're navigating a city that comes more naturally to you you but when you're doing something like um say building Furniture you don't just toss the directions and go for it at least not if you're like serious about building something sound right you want to look at the directions first to understand what you need to do and then start building it so it makes sense why a field such as economics could have been appealing to you I mean cuz depending on like the theories that you ascribe to some of the modeling might be a little bit more 3D in nature but it's not as if you're necessarily building something but it's the understanding of the graphs the charts the conceptual Iz ation that might be slightly more 3D so again I would definitely encourage you to read through that chapter in the book on structural visualization just to really understand okay what does it mean to score average versus low versus high so because of this particular score here every job I have mentioned so far any job I will mention ongoing is not going to be 3D in nature it's going to be slightly spatial or fully non-spatial because of the score questions or comments before we move on okay all righty let's move down to convergent thinking so convergent thinking is related to synthesizing information or problem solving inductive reasoning was the test in which you were given um three packets of black and white pictures one at a time and you used a red pen to Mark the three pictures in each row that had something in common or were three of the kind so inductive reasoning is related to your ability to rapidly assess evaluate diagnose or problem solve a situation so rapid fire partially informed decision- making people that score very high and inductive tend to enjoy working in roles in which they are constantly pushed to very quickly come up with a decision a diagnosis a plan based upon limited or incomplete information these are crisis counselors these are emergency department Physicians they don't have the luxury of time to be super thorough they need to make a decision that is good enough when someone scores in the low range such as you this suggest that you are more of that careful thorough methodical decision maker that in your ideal decision-making scenario you would have infinite time and infinite resources because you want to pour over the data right we talked about you being a data person um you want to make a procon list you want to consult with your parents your friends a mentor before you commit to a decision for a lower inductive person such as you it's not about making a good enough decision it's about making the right decision or the best decision now of course this can totally be situational I fully acknowledge that sometimes you're fine with just kind of whatever if it's something that feels very low stakes to you like your friends say hey okay the restaurant we wanted to go to doesn't have anything open for another hour so where should we go and you're fine with making a good enough decision but my guess is that when it's something that feels very important to you very high stakes like hey what am I doing with the rest of my life what job opportunities should I look at should I look at grad school should I go straight into the work work force that's when you start to notice that that low inductive kicks in in which you think okay give me the data I want to be right I want to really mull over this before I commit to a decision so I know you had kind of mentioned that like the decision was sort of made for you to complete testing with us but I'm guessing it wasn't complete coercion right part of you was thinking like yeah give me the data give me some objective data about my talents just so I can be sure that I'm making the right choices for myself that's the low inductive right there so inductive on its own doesn't necessarily point to specific Fields with lower inductive I would say it's more of like a role specific or organizational culture sort of consideration my worry for you would be that if you end up in a role that's very high inductive I think it's a recipe for Burnout because you are going to be pushed to make decisions that just don't feel right to you because you might find yourself saying like if I had more time if I had more information I think I would have done things differently so look for roles look for organizations that really Embrace thoroughness and accuracy above all um look for supervisors that are supportive that are receptive to you saying like hey this actually isn't a crisis we can come back to this tomorrow or no I need more information I have questions who can I go to you're going to be so much happier with the work that you're producing when you work in an environment that Embraces how you approach decision making I I'm going to trust you guys are going to stop me if you have questions I think so yeah okay isn't this uh I have a question here this this a little bit um it's interesting because his mathematical is super fast but this is sort of suggesting the analytical is is is is lower I I always would I are you are you making the point that numerical reasoning is not analytical reasoning that's just kind of interesting I always thought they were kind of together yeah so well it's interesting because I I do talk about numerical reasoning is being kind of the third arm of convergent thinking and we'll talk about Analytical in a moment um so it's not about rapid fire assessment it's not about okay these seemingly unrelated bits and pieces what's the diagnosis what do we need to do it's not about maximizing efficiency and creating structure for Tommy it's about what do the numbers tell us we need to do so there is still that reasoning element in it but so let me talk a little bit about analytical first and then maybe that'll help kind of answer the question in terms of understanding this difference yeah definitely so analytical reasoning was the test in which you were given those chips with the words printed on them and you arranged them into a logical sequence or flow it's like animal cat dog Sun heat light analytical reasoning would be related to your ability to organize how people or systems or processes flow so this is creating structure this is logic based decision making we often times talk about anal analytical is being akin to thinking like a computer it's removing all of the emotive processes from something and just saying what makes sense here so high analytical people oftentimes enjoy like editorial work computer science um work in like Supply Chain management or Logistics it's about what is the most efficient way to get from A to B without sacrificing the end result so for you yes of course you have an analytical mind in terms of that numerical reasoning piece but your analytical reasoning score was in the low range so what this would suggest to me is that external organization is very important for you so for you maybe you've noticed that if you just start writing a paper without creating an outline first you spend a lot of time editing it after the fact um maybe you've noticed that if you don't write things down if you don't put reminders in your phone you miss meetings you miss obligations or like today your dad texted you to check in because it was 9:30 and you weren't checked into the zoom meeting so maybe you've noticed that if you don't like live and die by your Google calendar you miss things you miss appointments you forget about papers until the day before they're due that's the lower analytical reasoning there so with this it's not any sort of knock against numerical reasoning again you are a data and numbers person being lower analytical I have a couple thoughts so one I would say make sure you have a really sound system in place for keeping yourself organized whether it's carrying a planner setting reminders on your phone having like a a printed calendar on your wall with all of the semester's obligations on there having that external organization is going to be really helpful for you in the workplace I would say look for organizations that have very clear Sops in place very clear standard operating procedures in place vagaries a lot of ambiguity is going to be difficult to Wrangle especially in a new role when you're lower analytical you appreciate structure and organization that's already in place so it doesn't mean I I know that you would enjoy working in a role in which they're so rigidly adherent to those procedures that they aren't open to changing it but for you I think if you were to go say you started working for a startup in finance without any sort of clear processes in place I think it's going to be hard for you because maybe you've notice too in school like some of your least favorite projects are the ones where they say just write about something just do something you might think no no no I I want to know like exactly what you need me to do what are the restrictions what am I working with so you appreciate parameters and the guidelines does that does that make sense Marty does that answer the question and I I say Tommy would would we could probably point out to certain things in the past where maybe things you know uh less than great school experiences let's say um were not because of the the subject or the issue it was about more about structuring things uh uh Missing the the assignment because I thought it was done or it wasn't done or this so it what you said about having a strong external structure system like either the calendar or the checklist or something and then that keeps that keeps allows Tommy to be in the zone of his strengths um that's what I hear you saying is Tommy do you see that too what kind of that that how that kind of fits yeah I see that with like it's being uh if I don't know exactly what I'm supposed to be doing or anything it's definitely harder to uh to do well on them or to get uh to to kind of like get it done quickly and get it done in time and manner if I don't have like somewhat of a step by- steper like uh AB C D and then uh you know I know I know what to do to get like completed quickly I think that's sometimes will uh definitely hold me back yeah and maybe also like setting reminders along the way or kind of checkpoints too so like if you have a big project like a Capstone project doe at the end of the semester setting little sub goals for yourself of you know a couple weeks into the semester maybe I've started thinking about a topic and a reminder for yourself there a couple weeks later maybe start Gathering resources um really it's it's not about adhering to a specific system but finding systems that work for you that you know you're going to stick with so if you have systems in place for keeping yourself organized absolutely keep up with it now is the time to kind of fine-tune what works for you and of course if maybe you don't have a really strong system in place start playing around with different things I don't typically recommend like professional organizers those sorts of coaches you know just because I don't know that it's necessarily worth um the the financial piece because they are quite expensive but just play around with different things and see what works for you if you have friends that are really organized pick their brains ask them like what do you do to stay organized or here's my deal what do you think would work for me you know me better than anybody you know what do you think I might want to do to help keep myself organized just to kind of see what they might recommend um the stakes are only going to get higher right you're only going to get busier so sticking with a system that works for you that just feels like something that you'll be able to continue to use educationally and professionally is just going to be really helpful for you and then of course you know we like amplifying your voice professionally right through the lens of low inductive being able to say like hey this isn't a crisis maybe not working for a supervisor who is super reactive right because that's just going to stress you out if everything is a crisis but also looking for organizations that again have clear processes in place so in interviews not being afraid to ask like okay so you know what's what's the structure what's the chain of command here who do I go to if I have a question where can I find our Sops where are the procedures located you know who do I answer to so because if they say oh it's your job to write those you're not going to be happy in in a role like that um looking for organizations that have the clear structure in place you're going to be so much happier in your role there when you have as you had mentioned the structure um the consistency sort of the expectations really clearly laid out you're going to be so much happier yeah I agree right wonderful um so moving along I do want to touch on LC Foria and then I think that would probably be it in terms of the absolute like I want to hit those but then I'd be happy to answer any other questions you guys might have about the other scores too before we move on but I do want to talk about graphia so graphia was the test in which you were given that eight-page packet with the two columns of numbers on each page you had to quickly determine if the numbers were the same on both sides and if they were make a little line between them to denote that they were the same so graor is listed here is being related to perceptual speed so this would be related to your ability to quickly scan through documents for relevant information so like skimming a chapter in a book scanning through documents for relevant information so sometimes graphia is related to speed of reading so sometimes lower goria people will report that they're not the fastest readers sometimes it needs to be an active effort to really stay focused on reading graor is also related to your ability to complete any sort of clerically intensive task with both speed and accuracy so this would be um like completing new patient paperwork at the doctor's office this would be note taking this would be um like standardized tests ACT SAT scanr multiple choice tests often times Loria people will report that those sorts of tests can be frustrating um because they don't necessarily feel as though they are the most accurate representation of their knowledge base or the effort they've put into the class um that sometimes Loria people will report that make careless errors on a test like they meant to bubble in C for number a but they end up bubbling in b or that time management is difficult in those sorts of tests maybe you've consistently noticed like I'm one of the last people done almost always when I take these sorts of tests that kind of intuitively knowing how much time you have to mul over an item before you need to move on can be challenging I'm seeing a lot of like Mayes and might bees because Loria doesn't just manifest in one way um did any of those examples I gave sound like you uh yeah I think so I don't really know where but I definitely can like I feel like I know what you're talking about when you're saying like just it's like a little bit slower with like uh note taking reading standardized testing uh I definitely see that for sure okay so for use it more of the speed piece than the accuracy piece um yeah I think so what I think it's like I think it's a little bit of both but speed is like it's zero zero issue who cares while being accurate or while doing like you know my best it won't be like there won't go NE neck really but if I take my time and it's like if I take my time and it's not even like I need extra time but if I take my time on it I'll do a lot better I think yeah so maybe you notice if you're really pushed to fly through something then you make errors but right you're someone who wants to be correct right we talked about low inductive so maybe you've noticed that typically if you have enough time it's you're not making a ton of careless errors but yeah maybe you are consistently one of the last people done completing a test um because it you want to be right so you really look at something you really mul something over before you commit to a decision so in terms of the workplace of course like you can't get away from paperwork right all jobs involve some element of paper work because for you it's more about speed than accuracy right you didn't make a ton of errors on the test it was just the speed part that brought your score down I know I mentioned this a couple times already this seems to be the common refrain of our conversation but be your loudest Advocate make sure you have enough time to complete clerically intensive tasks so you can get them done right the first time and then move on to something else that's going to be way more enjoyable for you if you feel like you're rushed through something you're going to have to do it again later because that's as you had mentioned that's when you make errors so be very deliberate with how you structure your time block out enough time to get things done delegate duties right we talked about you being the natural collaborator with that objective personality score delegate duties as much as you can the people on your team that say like I love paperwork it's so fun those are the people you want to hand those tasks off to it's going to help them use their aptitudes right so they'll feel fulfilled and you'll feel happy too because you're not going to spend all of your time bogg down and spreadsheets and documentation um because of the lower goria I have intentionally not mentioned Fields such as accounting just because accounting is so clerically loaded I don't think you'd be very happy as an accountant but for you something that's a little bit more engaged a little bit more Dynamic I think would still be enjoyable for you so the numbers piece some paperwork but not where you're just like buried in paperwork all day every day does that make sense yeah definitely okay so with looking ahead to kind of the tail end of your undergraduate career as much as you are able to be deliberate with how you structure your classes how you schedule classes if there's some classes that you know are very clerically intensive and you can't really get away from that maybe that's the only documentation heavy class you take that semester just because you know like hey I'm going to really have to focus in on this and I want to kind of set myself up for Success so as much control as you have over those things I would definitely encourage you to do that um I think you said something about not taking is not taking difficult uh it can be sometimes yeah okay does it feel like it's kind of like an impossible either or thing like you're either listening or you're doing like a literal transcription uh yeah yeah a lot of Loria people will report that that and so also because you're lower inductive like pulling out what's most important to write down right especially if you're Professor is just like brilliant and they have a lot to say and you're like there's so many nuggets I don't know what I need to write down and remember so what I typically recommend for Loria college students would be to record lectures I think you had mentioned that you sometimes will watch a recording or listen to it when you're on the treadmill I love that I would definitely encourage you to keep up with recording lectures because then that takes some of the pressure away so if you're recording the lecture you can just like sit and absorb or you can take notes and then cross check them later so you know you can take notes off of the recording or take notes in the moment and then double check them later and kind of fill in any gaps I think that's going to help you to feel present like you're really able to stay engage and absorb and not feel like you're just really bogged down and trying to type and keep up with whatever is being said all right these are the scores I specifically wanted to highlight for you but I'm happy to talk about any other tests that you might have a question about or if you wanted me to revisit something we had already talked about I can kind of scroll back through everything a little slowly is there anything else you guys wanted me to talk about uh uh nothing comes to mind really now okay Mar anything you want to touch do we do we talk about uh Divergent thinking sure so with the average scores I don't have a ton of interpretation I can offer but we can definitely talk about what those tests were um so Divergent thinking is in contrast to convergent thinking is just related to idea generation so coming up with ideas idea for was the essay test that you completed you wrote as much as you could in response to a writing prompt so with idea for you we are really just looking at how quickly your brain can generate ideas how quickly those ideas flow so very high idea for you people um these are the friends that you have that you will be like you're just brain dumping like you are word vomiting right now they have a lot of ideas and they just feel obligated to share them with anyone with an earshot these are the natural brainstormers the natural communicators these are people that would love marketing advertising where the emphasis is just on a ton of ideas very quick for low ideaphoria people these are the individuals that maybe the friends that you have that dread brainstorming that dread impromptu essay tests it doesn't suggest a fundamental lack of ideas but rather that they just flow at a slower clip so you score in the average range on this actually dead average right with that 50th percentile score so often times I talk about an average score as being like a pendulum swing so there might be some days where you feel very high idea Foria you have a lot of ideas you feel very engaged you want to communicate other days in which you feel like my brain is just not on today I am completely devoid of ideas of what is going on so for you I think it's just going to be about balance looking for roles that maybe offer some opportunities for multitasking for engaging for communicating and then maybe also occasionally opportunities for more focused work where you can really hone in on one thing at a time for long periods of time kind of those Dynamics I think will be a great way to honor this average score um also being average idea Foria I think just for underscores my comment about how I don't think you would necessarily like being an accountant even though you have the numericals very clerically intensive and I think you have too many ideas accountants very happy accountants are very low idea for you but that's the person you want managing your books you want them honed in you don't want them thinking about dinner later other projects you want them just focused on the task at hand so for you you could do it I don't think you'd be happy though yeah oh when we talked about things like marketing I think for you if you were drawn to something like that I know we talked about like market research I could see you really liking that because average ideas but also really leaning into that numerical piece too so it's not just throw a bunch of things at the wall and see what sticks but actually having the backbone to it in terms of being able to site the data I think that's going to be a really use high your amplitudes uh questions about that one before we talk about foresight uh no not really okay so for sight's the other end of Divergent thinking of for site was the test in which you had that two-sided sheet of blue paper and you wrote I'm sorry and then you saw six different images comprised of squiggles and loops and you wrote down everything that they could be or everything that they made you think of so foresight is related to your goal setting approach or your goal setting style in the sense that high foresight people tend to be those long-term thinkers those long-term goal generators these are the friends that you have that are already talking about everything they're going to accomplish before they turn 30 or 40 perhaps they have that very long-term Vision always when they're setting goals for themselves low foresight people are more of those present focused thinkers or present focused goal Setters these are people who find it to be more practical to focus it on the next few weeks next few months rather than thinking too far in the future so another average score for you so again it might be kind of that pendulum swing where you notice that sometimes you're setting a lot of short-term goals for yourself or sometimes maybe more long-term goals or perhaps a mix of the two really the greatest overarching message when it comes to foresight regardless of score is is just that goal setting is so important so this could be related to educational achievement vocational achievement I know you like Athletics you like working out so maybe you have goals related to your own Fitness your own development um maybe you want to take different classes try out some new techniques do some more research goal setting as a whole is just so important um for you it might be about setting that mix of the long and short-term goals and then also kind of checking in with yourself so if you have a long-term goal in place that you know is important for you but you start to feel like you're losing steam or motivation it might be time to start kind of breaking that goal down into those objectives those sub goals kind of smaller and more measurable steps so you feel like you're still on track and still motivated Mar did that answer your questions I know you just wanted me to touch on the Divergent thinking no that's very very good very helpful um I like to hear that uh distinction there thank you yeah yeah absolutely so Divergent is just generating the ideas convergent thinking is synthesizing everything and then starting to formulate conclusions or problem solve so we talked about the idea like balance so not an emphasis just on brainstorming not too focused of work because I think you're going to enjoy again that variety being able to move between tasks maybe the balance of the two and then in terms of the problems solving it's going to be about data it's going to be about the data analytics piece that's what's going to be enjoyable for you rather than creating structure from chaos rather than kind of on the Fly Like The Fly by the seat of your pants kind of problem solving I I hear in what you're saying here too uh kind of this for Tommy we mentioned the uh the importance of uh having an external sort of organizing system or set of ground rules or or whatever it would be I I see that kind of fitting well with his foresight idea of like you're not going to go and get a job planning a trip to Mars you know like that would be too much but but having a balance in there and and using these external systems to um hit those goals that you that you make um I see that that all kind of works together for you mhm yeah so it could be a very lofty long-term goal but then breaking it down into the smaller steps yeah absolutely and then using the numbers to kind of check in along the way or to help you maybe adjust the goals along the way based upon what the data is showing you nice all right any other questions about anything I have or have not talked about before we move on and talk about like what to do with all of this information not really okay um did you get a chance to complete the self-directed search uh no totally fine I would encourage you to complete it at some point um let me know if you have questions about it or what you need to do or if you can't find it I can send you a PDF but it should have home with you in that like manila envelope with the book too so we've been talking so much about objective data which being that numerical that data inclined person of course there's Great Value in the objective data in the numbers but I don't want you to make a decision or any decisions just based upon that objective data alone because that's not taking into account your passions your interests your values right how much money you want to make where you want want to live the kind of hours you want to work that's all so important too so that's really why we include the SDS the self-directed search in every battery we administer so you can really think about where your aptitudes and your interests intersect that's that sweet spot that's where I want you to focus in on because that's going to help you to make those meaningful decisions so the assessment booklet when you take a look at it it's going to take you 10 minutes to complete it's just um answering questions about things you might be interested in doing rating your abil in some different areas and then you end up just with a summary code so you kind of tally everything up so the summary code is based upon This riasc Acronym here this is just from one of the other booklets that went home with you so the self-directed search is a career interest inventory developed by Dr John Holland very well known in the world of career counseling so based upon his research he identified these six different types of people encapsulated in this kind of rainbow flower you see here but you could really also take this a step further and say that these are are the six different domains related to jobs so you could describe any job you could think of as being a three-letter combination from This Acronym here so in terms of what everything represents we're running the gamut from like Hands-On spatial to problem solving to fine artarts to client facing roles to management to clerically intensive work and kind of everything in between so when you do complete the assessment booklet you'll end up with a three-letter code and the three letters would be from This Acronym here when you end up with the code what I would want you to do next would be to look up the code proper in the occupations finder which is the thickest of the booklets that we sent home with you this is a a pretty exhaustive list of jobs that currently exist so towards the back of the booklet jobs are in alphabetical order and then towards the front jobs are listed based upon their three-letter code so for example if we were to look at something like um like ESI these are jobs that involve a managerial sort of component to them maybe a business component s would be social like client facing patient facing communication investigative would involve some element of problem solving too so whatever your code is say it is ESI I would also encourage you to mix up those letters any way you can think of because the examples are going to change based upon the the combination of letters so with e as the first letter here these jobs are the most e the most business management oriented so mix up those letters any way you can think of if you wanted to spend time looking through every section you of course absolutely can nothing is off limits I will say for you with goria being a lower score for you I think if C is the first letter conventional it's going to be really clerically loaded I think at the expense of all these other scores we've been talking about for you so I don't know if you'd be really happy in a job where C is the first letter but again if you wanted to spend time looking through different areas absolutely you can if C was like the last letter I could see you liking it but I think if it's the first letter you're just going to be doing paperwork at the expense of everything else and I don't think you'd be very happy you'll see the second column here is a numerical code labeled as being related to the onet so I will send you a link to the onet when we get off of this call the onet is a website maintained by the US Department of Labor really great easily understood very palatable uh resource when it comes to just getting General data related to jobs so it will show training and education requirements skills used on the job median salary growth Outlook so as you begin to research different jobs this is just a great starting point and let me switch my share and I will show you an example of what the on out looks like I have no agenda in making you a psychologist I pulled this up before we started meeting but just to show you what this looks like so brief definition as to what the job is bright outlook for young people I think this is important to keep in mind so this is an area that is expected to grow rapidly so the data is suggesting that this is a field that is going to continue to expand for young people might be important to keep in mind right you don't want to go into a field that's slowly going obsolete or that's so Niche that you're not going to have the ability to move or change jobs reported job titles so if you wanted to go on indeed and kind of poke around these might be some keywords to hone in on so there's a breakdown of the tasks the technology skills that are required the work activities the context of the work so a lot of face-to-face discussions being high grip you might see like 80% of people indicated they're almost constantly sitting and you might think okay no I don't think that I could do that right um unless you do walk and talks that's kind of a new thing in therapy where you go for a walk with your client and talk maybe that's maybe that's your slight Niche but still gives you that variety right job zones suggest like you're basically signing up for grad school if you want to be a psychologist um training credentials you're in I know you go to school in Ohio but you're from Illinois right yeah okay so just for the sake of example like if you wanted to search this this shows every single school in the state of Illinois that offers undergraduate or graduate programming in Psychology there's a ton Chicago is a huge hub for psychology and then it links to their respective School Pages too um additional information like skills us on the job the education piece the interest piece salary Trends as well and then towards the bottom there are links to additional sources of information so professional associations societies all of that so great way to start branching out to learn even more about a field so in terms of like the research piece I would encourage you to get the need to know is that essential information and then start to think about ways in which you can kind of get that Glimpse behind the curtain maybe do some informational interviewing some job shadowing meeting with faculty members just to get some more information because oftentimes a job sounds great in theory or on paper and then when you see what it actually looks like you think like no absolutely not so you want to get both of that the need to know that objective information and then that subjective feel right those nuances of okay so what would this job look like do I want to do that another way in which you could do that would be through something such as corsera um you might already be familiar with corsera so this is a website that will allow you to audit Collegiate level courses at legitimate accredited universities for free or for a very small fee I know you're in college right now but if you were thinking like hey you know I would love to take a class in subject X I don't have room in my schedule or what if I hate it and it's really hard I don't want to ding my GPA corera might be a really helpful tool for you um so you know with being objective we talked about management and Leadership so I pulled up just some leadership courses it's like if you wanted to audit a class at Yale in Connected leadership you could do that for free so this could be a really useful tool for you even if you just wanted to see a syllabus for a class and see like does this sound interesting you know would this hold my interest it could be a great way to do that I get no Kickback from recommending cor sah where not affiliated with them in any way we've just found this to be a helpful tool for our clients both um School AED and adults so I'll send you a link to corsera too so you can poke around and take a look it's free to make an account too and then some of the courses do cost money and then others are free as well so it might be worth just kind of doing a deeper dive to see if there's anything that might hold your interest you could um try it out and see if it's something that's appealing to you all right so this is so much information I acknowledge this is a ton of information I'm throwing at you even if I'm not necessarily telling you anything brand new and riveting and Earth shattering about yourself right what I want you to think about first in terms of getting the most out of this investment of your time and your money focusing on aptitudes first so I would say really prioritize becoming an expert on your aptitude pattern so I would say prioritize reading through your results I'll email those to you after this meeting that 28 page PDF I had mentioned with the breakdown of who you are what your scores mean the job will be there as well chip away at the book you don't necessarily have to read it cover to cover maybe eventually you do but I would say focus in on the chapters related to the scores I highlighted for you so personality the numbers the grip definitely read about structural visualization I know I had mentioned that pretty explicitly read through graphia too because I think that's another important low score read about inductive read about analytical when you feel like you have that strong understanding of your aptitude cap then I would say move on to the interest piece so that point then I would want you to complete that assessment booklet start looking up the code going on the onet looking for Sarah doing some informational interviewing excuse me when you approach things from that way that's going to be kind of the most logical and effective way to get the most out of this uh keep in mind also you are entitled to a free follow-up session you could use at any point in the next year so we would say a year from today it can absolutely be over Zoom you don't need to plan to come to any of our offices for that um follow-ups are about an hour long and they're structured around the questions that you have so to your senior year is that correct yeah so maybe you know this time next year you're starting to look more seriously at job opportunities and maybe you want to kind of talk through like okay so this is kind of what I think I want to do does this make sense of my aptitudes is there anything I need to keep in mind maybe we talk about interview questions too like what are some things I really need to ask them about to make sure this seems like it could be a good fit for me in my pattern we could do that maybe you just want to have a refresher session we can do that too so kind of make the most of it it's free we're not going to send you a reminder so it's going to be on you to remember to schedule that you can have as many follow-ups as you want for all eternity if you would like as I had mentioned your scores aren't going to change after the first year the first follow-up I'm sorry follow-ups are $100 that's the current fee but still about an hour long and structured around the questions that you have um the followup is not the only opportunity to ask questions though so please ask away if anybody has any questions right now Tommy any questions uh I don't really have I think it you covered a lot and you were you asked really good questions of us to sort of open an idea uh for a question where maybe we didn't have one or didn't think we had one and then you kind of brought the idea out of us so I think you helped us cover most of the questions that we would have had sure so if questions come up as you start going through everything send me an email the Chicago at email only goes to three people myself included so if you say hey Sera I got a question I will see it you should also have my direct email too because I think the zoom link came from that so you can also email me directly that's fine you don't need to wait for the follow-up to ask questions um in terms of what's coming next you're going to get two emails in just a moment so one will be from our system and that'll be your results proper that 28 page PDF we started going over together today I will send a separate email with a link to the onet a link to corsera a digital copy of our book just as backup I'm going to send PDFs of the self-directed search too just in case you can't find the paper copies cuz as I recall you tested maybe like more than a month ago right so in case you can't find them I'll send you PDFs too so you can at least still just complete it digitally um so those will both be coming your way in a moment and then feel free to respond to either of those emails if you do have any questions even if it's just like hey remind me what I need to look for in a supervisor since I'm low inductive like what were some of those questions you mentioned I might want to ask happy to email back and forth about that yeah awesome well if there's no other questions I can certainly let you both go oh I will send an email then too once I get a notification from Zoom that this is done buffering or processing or whatever the technical term is I'll send you guys that link so you'll be able to download that um but yeah if there's no other questions I can certainly let you go thank you so much for meeting with me I've really enjoyed getting to know you and working with you I wish you the best best of luck as you go into goodness the final year of of your bachelor's career um use this information to help you make some great decisions about your future and let us know if you have any questions and those emails will be coming your way in like 5 minutes all right awesome thank you very much I really appreciate it yeah absolutely all right bye everyone Take Care thank you Serena see you bye recording stopped