Transcript for:
Password Security Insights and Ilya Yashin's Journey

What do you do? This man has got some balls.. Dared to call himself a free man. With a sandwich.. Who's an FSB officer here? A manipulation! Poker face. He doesn't break. I've seen so much stuff.. His Western handlers told him what to say and what not to say. Can we agree to keep this conversation private? How to keep your passwords safe In this episode we are going to talk about keeping your passwords safe. In this ad we're talking about passwords, too. We have already told you about RoboForm passwords manager. This app keeps your online data safe from leaks and hacks. If you are using the same password on several websites or if you store your passwords on your Notes app.. You are a very vulnerable target for hackers and frauds. Losing access to your accounts, your data getting leaked, your money getting stolen and your credit score getting destroyed.. RoboForm would help you avoid all of these potential consequences. RoboForm generates unique passwords that you don't need to memorize. Log into your accounts with just one click on all of your devices. Auto fill-in feature would save you some time when making online purchases. RoboForm security department regularly monitors leaks. The app would recommend you to reset your password in case of danger. RoboForm employees don't have any access to your data. Let me show you how this works. RoboForm generates a unique password that would be stored on all of your devices. All you have to memorize is the master password from the app. Log into your profiles, fill-in your data automatically, and share your profile with other users.. All these features are available on RoboForm via the link in the description. Get a 40% discount by following the link below. Let's go! Back to the interview How are you doing, Ilya? Hi. This is the most popular question lately. To be honest, I don't really know how I am doing. I have very contradictory feelings. I don't want to lie, I am very glad to be free. A couple of days ago I was sitting in my tiny cell behind bars. I would listen to doors clanging and the guards walking. I would have to keep my hands behind my back when I was exiting the cell. Now I can go anywhere I want and eat anything I want. I finally met my parents earlier today and I managed to hug them. I'm surrounded with friends and life. I'm happy. At the same time I'm feeling some kind of guilt. I feel like a free-rider that shouldn't be here. I feel like I took someone else's place. For a few times I asked not to swap me and to swap some of my mates. Some of them didn't get to be on that plane. A lot of people are telling me not to blame myself because nobody asked me if I agreed with the swap. I get it, this makes a lot of sense. Mentally this is still very tough. It makes my brain melt. On one hand I'm extremely happy. This was the second time in two years when I hugged them. You saw them only once during your sentence. I saw them once during a three-day visit in January. Their next visit got cancelled. I hugged my mom only twice in the last two years. I have finally met some of my friends that I hadn't seen for over two years. This is an euphoric feeling. At the same time I think:'I'm hugging my mom and eating a fancy omelette..' 'While Alexei Gorinov, a friend of mine, is still in prison. He can't hug his wife.' 'His dog passed away while he was in prison. Tonight he will be eating this gross pasta again' It makes my brain melt. I feel like I'm going to explode. This is quite an experience for me. I will need some time to reflect on it. Berlin airport Hi. Hi, son. This is your suitcase. I have a suitcase already. Oh, is it filled with stuff? It is filled with your stuff. I got it. It would help you move. Oh, I stained your shirt. It's okay. I almost started crying. This was a very touching moment. On my way to the airport I was scrolling my Twitter feed and I saw an excerpt from my mom's interview with Gordeeva. I haven't watched this interview yet. I didn't have time to watch it. I saw this part where she was talking about their visit. I told them that my sentence was a marathon and we had to keep patient. And she told you that there was a chance she wouldn't make it to the end of the race. She told me she wouldn't make it. I told her she would make it. This was a very emotional moment for me when I saw her. She hugged me and said that the made it to the end of the marathon. I really liked their interview. People sent me a lot of letters writing about this interview. I got a lot of love..They wrote that my parents were very nice. I'm glad that they did this interview. I've known that my parents were very nice and I wanted to share them with others.. They supported me a lot and I knew that they could share their love with others. And this interview was also good for them. I didn't want my mom to become too private after my arrest. When she did this interview she realized that it helped her deal with this problem. This is what I felt when I watched the interview. She shared her confidence like a wi-fi hotspot. This was still very hard for her.. This is how she adapted.. She accepted her role and she took this responsibility. When she would come home she would be left there alone with her feelings. My mom is a heroic woman. My dad did a great job, too. I'm proud of my parents. An important announcement Time for an important announcement: we're now accepting donations. Over two years ago YouTube turned off monetization for Russian viewers and a lot of content creators are now collecting donations. Six months ago Russian authorities banned Russian companies from sponsoring foreign agents. We were not collecting donations for three reasons: We were getting ready for the worst and built a small team of people with several responsibilities. We were prepared for these hard times. Another reason: I like taking money from successful companies and I feel awkward being funded by regular people. This adds too much responsibility for me to keep on my work and my life in general. And now the third reason: it is considered that you should be making some bonus content for your subscribers. A lot of our viewers are not wealthy and we want them to have access to our videos for free. We would not have enough energy to produce two types of videos equally well. I don't want to be making lame paid content. In the last six months the advertisement market has shrunk for foreign agents. We are very thankful to our sponsors and I urge our future sponsors to contact us here: Currently we are only capable of paying our salaries and going on small business trips. We can no longer make costly videos like the Silicon Valley, Kolyma, HIV, interviews in Brazil or Korea. I feel like you would be really interested in seeing such an episode. When we announced that we were open to being sponsored by foreign companies we received such messages: 'There is nothing that I would like to promote but I would like to pay you this amount of money.' 'I don't need anything in return, I'm just happy to take part' And this is what I decided after some consideration. We are now collecting donations. Let me remind you that there's a bunch of organizations that need your money much more than we do. If you have already managed to support your family, supported charity organizations, human rights organizations, and you are now willing to support us.. We are now collecting donations on all biggest platforms. There will be no exclusive content or livestreams for our sponsors. We are already publishing bonus content on our second channel for free. Please subscribe to this channel. If you are following us on Boosty, Patreon, YouTube membership, or Telegram - please keep in mind that you are just supporting us and not getting any exclusive content. There is no difference between different levels of membership. The only difference is the amount that you are willing to pay us. I'm sorry for talking about it for so long but I am a responsible person and I wanted to share my concerns with you. If you are willing to support our channel, I will leave the link with the instructions in the description below. If you are not capable of, or don't want to support us - we are still glad to have you. I've said this many times and I want to say it again - it's all because of you. Keep it up! Keeping it up You have already given a press conference and did some interviews..You talked about how this swap went. It sounded a little confusing to me. Can we briefly talk about the swap in details? When exactly did you realize what was happening? Where were you and how did you understand? My cellmate got released. We were held in a small cell. Not a Shizo cell but it was still very strict. It was better than a Shizo because I was allowed to but something in the prison store and I was allowed to read during the day. In a Shizo cell you can only read for 1.5 hours a day and you can't buy yourself any food. Navalny was asking them to get him out of shizo because he wanted to have some coffee to feel better. My cellmate got released and I wanted to ask the head of prison about a new cellmate. He came to see me and I talked to him about my lawyers not being allowed to see me. He looked very bored and then he asked me:'Why haven't you applied for clemency?' I asked him whom would I address. He said - Putin. I told him that Putin put me in prison. Why would I ask him to release me? And he said:'I would really recommend you to apply for clemency' And left. I felt like he was trolling me. This happened how many days before you arrived in Berlin? This happened on Tuesday on the week before I got released. So it happened about ten days before.. He left and I was trying to understand what happened. I felt like he was making fun of me. 'Have you tried applying for clemency?' I felt like my application would end up in a trash bin. And he said this with a poker face. He didn't break the character. On the following day I was visited by a Deputy Head of Federal Penitentiary Service. He walked into my cell and got mad at me. 'I was reported that you refused to apply for clemency' 'Why?' I told him:'Your president is a war criminal. He put in prison, why would I ask him for anything?' Applying for clemency is a right and not an obligation. I don't remember his reply.. He smiled at me and said:'I don't care what you think. Write the application' I told him I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't ask his president for mercy. He was laughing at me and then he became serious.. When he was leaving he turned around and said:'Are you sure?' I told him I refused. What did this mean? Ask for mercy? Ask for clemency. At this point I realized that there were some negotiations going on. I didn't expect the Head of prison to ask me to apply for clemency. Something was definitely going on. I was waiting for my lawyer to arrive. On Saturday they got me out of my cell. This felt like a special operation. They told me that the Head of prison wanted to talk to me. I'd just had my breakfast. They took me to the head of prison. I felt like we would talk about the clemency again. We went outside and then we walked towards the prison gates. I saw the head of prison at the gate together with some man in a pink shirt and a murse. A man in a pink shirt and a murse..Looks like an FSB officer from Moscow. Okay.. The head of prison waved at us. We walked up to them, I said hello. This FSB officer just grabbed me and put me in a paddy wagon. They didn't tell me where we were going. They didn't reply to any of my questions. They didn't even let me pack my stuff. Some of them gave me my toothbrush and the toothpaste. They sent me to Moscow. I realized that we were heading to Moscow because the drive to Smolensk would take less time. I was trying to ask the guards but they didn't know anything. You were in this car for about five hours.. For four hours. We were going very fast. I tried to think about what was going on. This was either a new criminal case..Or a swap. They put me in pre-trial detention center. I couldn't even look around. I knew that this was Lefortovo. I saw the plate that said Detention Center #2. A lot of swapped prisoners didn't know where they were. They parked the car right in front of the doors.. They did. They parked right at the entrance. You wouldn't understand where you were. You wouldn't. I saw the plate and realized that I was in Lefortovo jail. Lefortovo is an FSB jail. You get there either for treason.. You thought that there was a new criminal case.. Something like treason.. With decades in prison. Yes, this bad. Or - they would swap me. This is why they asked me to apply for clemency. Nobody told me anything. They searched me and put me in an empty cell. I asked them to take me to shower and to take me for a walk. They didn't let me have a shower even though I had a right to have shower. I asked them to give me two sheets of paper an a pen. I began analyzing this situation like Stierlitz, I drew a scheme. I wrote down arguments for a new case and arguments for a swap.. Eventually I realized that a swap was more likely. I wrote down a statement refusing to get swapped. According to the Constitution, Russian citizens can't be deported from the country without their consent. Russian authorities appealed to this rule a few times. When Litvinenko got poisoned, the UK officials asked them to deport Lugovoy. Russian authorities said that they could not deport a Russian citizen without his consent. I wrote the statement to the head of jail saying that the Constitution did not allow Russian citizens to be deported. Being a Russian citizen, I didn't not consent to deportation. I have a right to stay in my home country. I asked him to share this letter with the decision makers. It was clearly not up to him to decide. The Deputy Head of jail came to me and started talking to me.. 'What's the problem?', he asked. I realized that they wanted to swap me. I told him they would have to force me. I refused to be deported from Russia. He said:'I get it. We are going to act based on this statement' They brought two huge SWAT guys to deport me. Did they put handcuffs on you? They did not. They just grabbed me. We were escorted by FSB SWAT group. This is the strongest group that fights the terrorists. They had their balaclavas on, they were armed. They grabbed me and put me on the bus. I was the first prisoner on the bus. They told me to stay calm and to do what I had to do. They asked me not to cause any problem and not to make them apply brute force. They were willing to apply it if needed. They told me to obey. When they put me on the bus I thought that we would undergo some kind of customs control. I thought of Maria Kolesnikova, who tore her passport in pieces and didn't let the authorities deport her. I didn't have a chance to tear my passport. They gave us our passports after we left Russia. They brought us to Vnukovo Government Terminal. They drove us to the plane and an FSB officer took a seat next to each of us. Did you see anyone on the way to the plane? I saw them on the bus. We were all on the same bus. I could see who entered the bus. When I saw Liliya Chanysheva, Navalny's Team activist that I cared a lot about.. I realized that there was a swap happening. I was glad to see Liliya. This was a bittersweet feeling. I was looking at people entering the bus. You were expecting Gorinov to be on the bus. I was. And not only him. I was expecting to see Kara-Murza and I saw him. I was so happy. And then I saw Andrey Pivovarov, a friend of mine. I was happy. I saw Kseniya Fadeeva. I saw other prisoners. Vadim Ostanin. And the next person. And next. The next..The next.. And then the door closed. Gorinov wasn't there. Kara-Murza was sitting in front of me. I could whisper something to him.. I told him Gorinov wasn't on the bus. He said there could be another bus. FSB officers told him that this was a big swap. I told him there were some seats left on the bus. Gorinov wasn't going to be swapped. This was tough..They mocked us. I made a few statements asking not to swap me. I said that I chose to stay in Russia even if I had to be in prison. This was the path that I picked for myself. I didn't want to leave Russia under any circumstances. I didn't want to be swapped. I wanted to stay and work in Russia. Some people had to be rescued, though. Alexei Gorinov, a friend of mine, was put in prison when they were trying to threaten me. Igor Baryshnikov from Kaliningrad..He's got cancer. We need to get him out of prison or he would die. There is Maria Ponomarenko, a journalist in very tough conditions who needs to be rescued. There is Kriger, there is Kagarlitsky. Decent people who would never ask for clemency. They're elderly people and they struggle in prison. There is Ochirov from Elista who is being bullied. I took their place on the bus. I asked them not to swap me. I took someone else's place. I know why they did this. I know why Russian authorities did this. They kept their hostages. Gorinov is now a hostage. Gorinov was a local deputy in my district. They put him in prison to threaten me. They showed me that I was next. They wanted me to leave the country. They have released me already while Gorinov is still in prison. A man in his sixties. He's missing a part of his lung. From hospital to shizo and so on. They put him in one of the most cruel prisons in Vladimir region. Navalny was held in this prison, too. It is called IK-2 Pokrov. Some prisons are less brutal and some are very brutal. This particular prison is one of the most brutal ones. They are bullying him. They haven't released him to put me under pressure. They turned this man into their tool. This is unbearable. It's hard for me to even say this.. Can I read you one of the letters that you sent someone? This person allowed me to read it here. Who is this? Ekaterina Gordeeva. Sure. You helped her not quit YouTube. Gordeeva announced that she would most likely quit YouTube after not being able to sell ads on her channel. You sent her this letter. 'Hi, Katya. I hope that you're not losing your heart despite all the circumstances.' 'I know that you must be very upset now, just like all of us.' 'I know that you decided to quit YouTube because of the new law' 'I get it but I don't want you to give up.' 'Almost all of your interviews get transcribed and sent to political prisoners by volunteers. ' 'I see that you are doing a very important job. If you are doubting that this job is needed..' 'I can assure you that I need you as well as many other viewers of your channel.' 'Trust me. Please do your best to keep your channel running' 'I'm willing to help you. I don't know how exactly..' 'I can write letters to your potential sponsors. I can call people to donate on my socials' 'I would do anything that you would accept. Please - don't give up. Hugs, I'm there for you' And here's her reply: She allowed me to read this here. 'This was one of the main reasons for me not to leave.' 'I was laughing out loud when I thought of Yashin raising money for my channel from prison' I was really willing to help. It's easy to raise money when you're in prison. People wouldn't say no to me. I would be raising money for a good deed. This is a manipulation. Call it whatever you want. A manipulation or not.. This was the right thing to do. I was willing to help her. I would be very upset had she quit YouTube. This would be a huge loss for everyone. This is a very touching story for me. I'm glad to hear that I helped her. I wasn't even sure that she got my letter. I'm really glad to have helped her. How did these FSB officers treat you? Initially, they were quite tough. They had a little argument with Pivovarov..He saw us and wanted to say hi.. They told him to sit down. He told him that he was officially released and was now a free man. They were really rude. They told him that he dared to call himself a free man. They told him they could make him lay on the floor for the whole trip. Did they really say that he dared to call himself a free man? They did. Is this a quote? This is a quote. Dared to call himself a free man. The officer who was sitting next to me stood up and gave an emotional speech. He told us not to take their kindness for weakness. He told us that they were the real fighters and they wouldn't play games with us. He said that they would make us lay on the floor for the whole trip. Then he sat next to me and decided to ask him about being a real fighter. I asked him what his name was. He said his name was Georgy. I asked him if he fought at some wars. He said he was fighting in the trenches.. Where? In Ukraine? Yes. I told him that I missed all the news while I was in prison. I asked him to tell me what was going on there. He didn't want to talk to me first.. The further we flew from Russia, the more relaxed they became. At some point they took their balaclavas off and we saw their faces. US citizens were flying with us. The plane consisted of two parts.. There were German citizens on the board, too. US citizens got a special treatment. They were flying in the business class. Russians were flying in the economy while the Americans were flying in the business class. I told my officer that there was a crime in the Soviet Union called adulation of the West. Putting the Americans in the business class was pure adulation of the West. What did he reply? He laughed. This is a meme! American? Who brought him here? Get out! Remember this video? They took their balaclavas off and started talking to each other.. They took out their sandwiches. Yes, they took out the sandwiches. Ksenia Fadeeva is a tiny girl and they offered her some sandwiches. She was absolutely shocked. They had pistols on their waist.. They offered her some sandwiches.. I realized that I could talk to them. These people support this war with all their heart. I talked to Georgy and asked him about the war. I asked him about big losses in the Kharkiv attack. He told me a lot of interesting stuff. He said that the recent Kharkiv attack was a disaster. They wanted to draw the Ukrainians out but they didn't fall for it. He told me about winning back a piece of land at Zaporizhia. He said they suffered losses but managed to advance. He said that the new Ukrainian drones were very effective. Their drones were much more effective than the Russian ones. These drones caused a lot of problems. He said that they got stuck. Too much blood and too many victims. I asked him about the peaceful negotiations coming soon. I asked him what he thought about the negotiations. He said:'I really hope there would be no negotiations unless the assholes from the Ministry of Defense ruin everything' This is a quote. I asked him why he disliked the Ministry of Defense. He told me about Timur Ivanov.. I knew this all but I was still curious. The Ministry is corrupt. Yes. Corrupt traitors who would like to make peace. He hoped to win the war. I was really surprised that he talked to me a lot. This doesn't sound like something that an FSB officer would say. They are taught no to talk too much. I was surprised, too. This happened in front of everyone. What if this was a trick? I don't know that..Ksenia was sitting behind me..She heard it, too. What if he wanted to misinform you? How? He wanted you to share this story.. I am fine with sharing it. By the way.. To be honest.. You called his name and shared your private conversation. Don't you feel like it's a wrong thing to do? I feel like this is socially significant information. I have to share it. He never asked me to keep this conversation private. In this case I would not share this story. Okay. He knows who I am. He didn't take me on a picnic. He deported me against my will. With a sandwich. With a sandwich. He deported me. He told me something that I wanted to learn about this war. I have no doubts that I have to share this story. I don't have an answer to this question. I'm just curious if morals work towards mean people. Let me tell you my theory. He didn't like a typical FSB officer. Telling an opposition member about the Ministry of Defense or the military operations was not very professional of him. They had a little beef with Kara-Murza. Kara-Murza told him not to mess motherland with their excellency. He told them that they were fighting for their bosses and not for their homeland. Georgy got offended by these words. He believes that he's fighting for his country. He doesn't give a shit about our Government. He's fighting for his country. He's risking his life. He's the same age as Kara-Murza, by the way. He googled his age. They're both 43, I guess. He said:'We're the same age. I'm fighting for my country while you..' What? 'While you are betraying you country.' I didn't want to have an argument with him. I wanted to listen to him. When he told me about the war I didn't judge him. At some point I thought: Who's an FSB officer here? This was a very interesting conversation. I might be wrong.. He deserves an Oscar if he was lying to me.. He looked very sincere. He was very mad. He was mad at the crooks from the Ministry. He's very proud to be fighting at the war. From the very beginning he said: we are the real fighters! We're not carrying these guns for nothing. Who made the joke about Krasikov coming after you? He did. Was this a joke? I don't think so. He jiggled. I'll be honest - I got scared, as well as Kara-Murza. We shut up and I whispered to him: did I hear this right? And he said: yes, this was a threat. He threatened us. Okay, I will take this into account. Was there any kind of farewell when you were leaving the plane? This was quite funny. His commander whispered him something.. He turned to me and said:'I'm sorry but I've got to leave. I got a raise and I'm going to the Americans' Did he really say this? He did. This sounds like a scene from What a mess! He went to the business class and escorted one of the Americans. I got escorted by another officer who was wearing a mask. This whole swap story is very dramatic but at the same time this is a dark comedy. You got off the plane..Did you know where you were? There was a monitor on board..We could follow our route.. Not all planes have these monitors. This was a government plane. You knew you were flying to Ankara. We were flying south..I called Orlov. He asked me where we were flying. I told him it looked like we were flying to Ankara. And the FSB officer confirmed it. So you took off the plane.. And they put us on a bus. An FSB officer gently escorted me to the bus. I entered the bus and met a beautiful blonde girl.. She said she was a representative of the German government. She asked me how I felt. I said I was feeling much better. She offered me some water. She said she would soon tell us what was going on. Did she speak English? She did. And since then you only spoke to German authorities. We did. There was a translator.. We came to a hall and they offered us some food. We got to call our families. They gave us some phones. There was a representative of the US government. He came up to Kara-Murza to call Biden and his family. And then they searched our bags. I didn't have any bags with me.. Some prisoners were allowed to pack their stuff. Orlov is an old man, he packed all of his stuff. I asked him if he brought his whole cell with him. He had two huge bags. He said that he took everything with him just in case. A bag of underwear, a bag of socks..Some food.. They searched all of our bags in case FSB officers put some spying equipment there. This process took them about two hours. Then they put us into two small planes and flew us to Germany. In Germany we were met by Chancellor Scholz. So many times I thought about getting released. I thought that I would walk through the prison gate and people would meet me outside. I would swim in a river and I would walk to my favorite park. I would breathe the air of freedom and walk around Moscow. I had a whole wishlist and none of it came to life. I left the prison escorted by the SWAT group. Since I arrived in Germany I haven't really had the chance to reflect on my feelings. I'm too busy to take care of myself now. I hope that soon this hype is going to decrease and I would be able to think about what's next for me. I've thought about my next steps a lot lately. Can I have a dog in Berlin? I don't know. Your domestic passport is expired. At the press-conference I said that it was expired. Let me explain.. I got this passport when I was eighteen and it became unfit. It got torn.. It was torn and I claimed to had lost it. I applied for a new passport. I got a new domestic passport and I also had a traveling passport. I kept this old passport at home, unlike my new documents. When the police searched my house this was the only document that they found. They put this old passport into my criminal profile. When they deported me they took this invalid passport to Germany. I was planning to tear my passport in the airport but when I saw old passport it was already torn. There was nothing to tear there. Did you have valid domestic and traveling passports somewhere? My parents just brought me my passports. Now I'm fine. It's not as dramatic as you said. Not anymore. You have a valid ID. I do now. I didn't know if my mom would be able to bring it to me. The fact is that I arrived in Germany with no valid IDs. I was just wearing my prison robe. I have already told this on another interview.. They identified you using your pictures from the Internet. They did. Did they just google you? This beautiful German girl walked up to me with some papers..She printed out a few pictures of me. There were pictures of me at the protests and a picture from Wikipedia.. There was also a man who was an expert in identification. They asked me what my name was. I said Ilya Yashin. They asked me what my date of birth was. I said my date of birth. They asked me a few questions and then they asked me to look forward. Then they asked me to turn my head to the left. And so on. I asked them to take a look at their papers. She told me that this was just a printout of my pictures. There was no other way to identify me. A lot of people said that you looked too good for a recent prisoner. I got a call from Oleg Navalny who asked me about my model hairstyle. He asked me:'What kind of prison was that?' There was a prisoner called Serega..He used to be a very good hairdresser in Moscow. Did he go to prison for drugs? Of course, he did. He used to be Pavel Derevyanko's personal hairdresser. It's all intertwined. It is. He was very proud of this fact. He had his whole set of tools in prison. Was he allowed to take the set with him? He cut everyone's hair, even the guards'. Everyone in this prison had fancy hairstyle. Almost all of them had their hair cut by Pavel Derevyanko's barber. Did you exercise in prison? I exercised in the detention center. There was a gym there that I paid for. I could exercise twice or even three times a week. Apart from exercising I was allowed to take a shower. I was in a good shape..There was no gym in my prison. They put me in a high-security prison where I could not do any sports. What about prison workout? The set of exercises that you could do in your cell. Listen..These cells are very humid. I was scared of getting sick with tuberculosis. Exercising in such conditions is not recommended. I'm a little out of shape now. I'll start exercising soon. How many times a week could you shower? Two times a week we could take the shower. Were these the best days of the week? Of course, this was a big event. Getting nice and clean.. I understand why the Americans rescued their citizens. Why did the German government take part in the swap? I think their only motivation was humanitarian. We talked to Scholz about it. We had an opportunity to talk to him when he met us. He told us that they wanted to save as many people as they could. And I believed him. I get it. People on the plane really needed help. Vladimir Kara-Murza had been poisoned twice. He had very serious health issues. It was unclear for how long he would survive one of the most cruel prisons in Russia. Sasha Skochilenko also has got a lot of health issues. She needed to take special medication. German government saved these people. Why did they pick these particular people? A lot of people are suffering in prisons now. Not only in Russia but in Turkey, too. They had an opportunity to save these people. They could give Putin his man in return. They faced a dilemma and I asked Scholz about it. They possessed a man that they could return to Putin to save some innocent prisoners. Yes, but here is the dilemma: Scholz got criticized for negotiating with the terrorists. This hitman killed a person in Germany and six years later got released. This means that Putin can now send another hitman to Europe and then swap him for another prisoner held in hostage. This is what Scholz got criticized for. This makes a lot of sense. This absolutely makes sense. But should we negotiate with the terrorists holding hostages? It is considered that such negotiations would create an incentive for another terrorist attack. And there is an opposite opinion that the negotiations should be held to save some hostages before the fight. This is what happened at the Dubrovka attack. They managed to save some hostages. They negotiated and the terrorists agreed to release a dozen of hostages. I feel like there is no solution to this problem. When I talked to Scholz I told him that I knew what he felt. There is no right answer to this dilemma. I told him that I would have done the same if I were him. The difference with the terrorists is..I'm not trying to say that there is a correct answer to the dilemma.. The difference between terrorists and Putin is that you can let them escape if they release all the hostages. After they escape you tighten your secret services. You have fucked up already and you don't want this to happen again. There is a chance to prevent another terrorist attack if your secret services work well. I guess, there is a chance to decrease the probability of a terrorist attack. The government should do its best to prevent such an attack. While Putin can arrest any foreigner coming to Russia and make him a hostage. This is another form of terrorism. You are right. What else can I say? I can say that.. I'm not trying to say that this swap.. I agree with your arguments. But at the same time we're rescuing Vladimir Kara-Murza. Saving his life. This is why it's a dilemma. There is no correct solution. In such cases politicians are making decisions based on what their heart tells them to do. Some of them show their toughness and refuse to negotiate. They claim that negotiating with the terrorists would lead to another attacks. While other politicians choose to save the hostages. I hope nobody thinks that I am not happy that the prisoners got released. The questions is: Isn't Putin unbeatable in this situation? He doesn't need to be soft like European politicians. This is a philosophical question. Humanism is always a weakness. If you are a humanist politician you can be easily manipulated. Your opponents would take hostages to manipulate you. You would always try to save the hostages. On the other hand, humanism is a great power. Humanism unites people and gives them hope and meaning. Despite all these manipulations humanity is progressing. A couple of centuries ago humanism was a fringe theory and now it is a dominating idea. In general, the humanitarian ideas are winning. This is a global confrontation. I believe that the war in Ukraine is a confrontation between humanism and violence, tyranny and freedom. This is a global confrontation between good and evil. The frontline divides the world in two parts. Humanism is our weakness and our power at the same time. You stopped counting letters at around 15 thousands.. When I had about 18 thousand letters I lost the count. I would then only count in hundreds. Overall I received about 30 thousand letters. Would you reply to all of these letters? I could not reply to all of them. I replied to about 10 thousand. Would they send you an envelope for your reply? There are several ways for receiving letters in prison. The first method is FPS-mail. You receive a printout.. And you also get a sheet of paper to write your reply on. They would scan your reply and send it back. Another method works in prisons with no FPS-mail. They would printout the letter and send it to you via mail. And then there is regular mail. You can write a letter and send it via mail. Sometimes they wouldn't send me the envelope.. How much does an envelope cost in prison? Recently it got more expensive. Now it costs 31 roubles. So replying to 10 thousand letters would cost you about 300 thousand roubles. People would usually send me the envelopes for my reply. Is this a right thing to do? Of course, it is.. I was lucky to have some spare envelopes..People would send me a couple of envelopes in their letters. I would share my envelopes with other prisoners. Sometimes prisoners don't have any envelopes. If you are writing a letter to a political prisoner, send him an envelope, too. A few thoughts from Z-communities regarding the swap: 'Russians are swapped for Russians. It seems like we have deported the foreign agents and the traitors' 'Why would the West swap them otherwise?' I think that the West wanted to swap these people to save their lives. This swap became possible after Navalny got killed. This is obvious. Navalny was killed in prison, which shocked many Western politicians. They were shocked by his assassination. He was the leader of Russian opposition and Putin's biggest rival. His death made this swap real. They can say whatever they want about foreign agents.. They claim that you are spies. I get it. Why did I refuse to be swapped then? What kind of spy would choose to stay in prison? This doesn't make sense. Another popular opinion: It's much safer to be a Russophobe in Russia than to be a patriot like Strelkov. What can you say about it? There are over 1200 political prisoners in Russia who don't support the Government and the war. These people have similar views to mine. This swap helped less than a percent of the political prisoners. Most of them are still in prison and their number is increasing. The censorship and the extremism laws are still there. Strelkov wasn't put in prison for being a patriot. They put him in prison for being naughty. He's different from what Putin wants patriots to be like. He criticized Putin and they put him in prison. And the final comment: This is a double victory for Putin. He got his people back and set the terms for this deal. What can you say about it? Putin did not set any terms. This swap wouldn't have happened if Navalny was alive. Is this a victory for Putin? Time will tell. I feel like this group of people will prove themselves. I never saw myself as an emigrant. I never thought about being a politician outside of Russia. I am now motivated to try to do it. I must now take this responsibility. I must work as hard as I've never worked before. This is a new environment for me. This has happened a few times in the past when the deported politicians managed to be effective from abroad. I'm going to learn from them. What politicians? I am not going to call any names now. I haven't studied this topic well enough yet. I will learn from their experience. This sounds like there are no such politicians. Khomeini. He's not the best example in terms of his ideology.. When he arrived in Iran after the revolution he became the head of the country. Even though he used to live outside of the country. Would you mention Lenin? Lenin, too. I wouldn't like to learn from him.. This is horrifying. I would like to choose another path. I will learn from their experience because I'm curious. I've got to analyze this a lot. I will stick to my principles. I will do my best for Putin's regime not to benefit from deporting me. I will try to be as effective as I've never been before. At the press-conference you said that you wanted to fly back to Moscow when you arrived in Ankara. You said you couldn't do it because you didn't want the swaps to stop happening. When and how did you get to this conclusion? I was asked to keep this private. In Ankara they told me that this would damage the Western side. Did you get this information from a Russian authority? I didn't. Not Russian? No. Did you ask this person about coming back to Russia immediately? I did not. I asked him how I got into the list. What the hell was I doing there. Why wasn't Gorinov on the plane? I asked him about the available options.. They told me that the German government had already made a tough decision when they swapped the hitman. They sent this person back to Putin. Not everyone in Germany was fond of this decision. So if they swap a hitman for a political prisoner and then this prisoner comes back to prison.. It means that they have just released a hitman. It would be very hard for them to do another swap if this happens. On your livestream you talked about getting on this swap list. You said that they needed a celebrity prisoner who would potentially become an opposition leader. Nobody used the words 'celebrity' or 'opposition leader'. They told me that Putin had to pay a high price for the swap. He had to release a famous prisoner. Yes, this is why the German government put me on the list. Kremlin was happy to see me on the list. They requested a guarantee that I would not come back. Nobody gave them this guarantee. Do you know why Safronov, Berkovich, and Petriychuk were not on the list? I don't know. I know that some prisoners were supposed to be on the plane.. Some of those who I just named? Yes. Some prisoners didn't get to be there. I cannot validate this claim. But this is what I heard. You were receiving letters from some girls. From a lot of girls. I don't know what you mean by a lot. This is what you said. Yes, I was getting letters from girls. What kind of letters? They shared their sympathy. Romantic letters? Sometimes romantic, sometimes regular letters.. Sometimes these girls would tell me about their lives or ask me some questions. Some girls were willing to date you. Yes, they were. How did you feel about these letters? Very enthusiastic. I spent two years in prison.. And some girl was flirting with me in her letters.. Did she put any pictures into the letters? She did. A pretty girl was flirting with me.. I really enjoyed texting such girls. This made me feel better. Did you have any kind of spreadsheet to make sure you don't confuse these girls? Oh, I have just shared your secret! I'm sorry. I have a spreadsheet in my head. Do you think that some girl would be upset to find out that she wasn't the only girl writing to you? I'm a decent guy. I had fun flirting with these girls. How did you memorize them all? It's clear that you didn't have an Excel spreadsheet. I have good memory. I had pictures of these girls. I would store my letters and my pictures in an album. So I would store the pictures of these girls in this album. I wasn't mean to them. I wasn't lying to them. I never told them I would marry them. We were just having fun. I know that you've been here for less than a week..Have you met any of these girls? I haven't met anyone yet. None of the girls that wrote to you? Yes, but I've managed to chat with them on their socials. What? I'm curious.. I get it. There is a newspaper called Public House. This newspaper is being published by the Federal Penitentiary Service. This newspaper is utter bollocks but the prisoners like it. There are dating ads on the last page of this newspaper. Prisoners send their pictures saying that they would like to meet someone. They start texting each other. This newspaper is great for.. There is a huge community on VK..These girls are waiting for their partners to be released from prison. In this newspaper you can only text another prisoners. There was an ad from a woman kept in a prison in Krasnoyarsk region.. She wrote:'They put me in prison for drug possession. I'm 27, divorced, three adult kids' I have no idea what this means. Oh.. I liked reading this last page. Life is multifaceted. Pablo Gonzalez was one of the spies that was sent back to Russia. Or Pasha Rubtsov. Not only you know him, and here is a picture of you at the Nemtsov Forum in Prague.. Exactly. He was a friend of yours. It's true. You talked about him on your livestream. He told everyone that he was a reporter. A reporter from the Basque country. He said he was supporting Athletic Bilbao. This is an outstanding clubs with exciting traditions. I think that he really liked this club because he knew a lot about it. He knew the history of the club..He chose Basque Country for a reason. He really liked this place. I can tell you how it works for me. If you're an opposition politician in Russia you easily become paranoid. Just like that. You are always looking for mics, spies.. You meet a girl and you think that she works for FSB. At some point you go crazy. When I became paranoid I stopped being cautious. What would Pablo Gonzalez learn from me? We watched football together.. It turned out that he wrote some reports..His job was to spend time with me. I needed to buy a new jacket and I asked him if he new a good store in Madrid. He would help me buy a new jacket. 'I like this jacket more', he would say. He helped me choose a jacket. My mom brought me this jacket today, by the way. And then he would write reports. Olga Shorina, who used to be.. Boris Nemtsov's press attache. Exactly. She was a witness in the Pablo Gonzalez case. She was friends with him, too. She saw these reports that he wrote. A couple of days ago she told me about the reports. Why did she see there? I told her that we went to buy a jacket together. She said that he wrote a report about it. This was a part of his job. It was. He was trying to get closer to me. He knew that I was supporting Spartak Moscow. He managed to learn my opinion of Spanish football and Spanish jackets. He had to write a report about it. So what? Would he learn from me something that I wouldn't say in an interview? I'm really curious what you think about him now. Do you remember anything suspicious? Of course, now it's clear. What exactly? He would ask me some questions.. Would he suggest to hire prostitutes? Kind of. Kind of. So did you do it? We didn't. I didn't do anything wrong. This is why I find this funny. I'm trying not to discredit myself. I know that they might be watching me any time. I feel like I'm living in a reality show. Your life is transparent. It is. We watched football together and then we bought a jacket. So what? I didn't tell him anything that I would tell you. I don't care. Pablo Gonzalez, also known as Pavel Rubtsov, caused zero damage to me. When I found out that he was a spy I was surprised. I thought that he was a nice guy. Thank God - he was swapped for Sasha Skochilenko and Oleg Orlov. I wish that all spies were like him. No poisonings, no shootings.. Does this case prove that there are spies among opposition leaders? Yes, there are definitely spies among us. It would be weird if there were no spies. Is everyone as comfortable with this fact as you? Have you asked your colleagues about it? I think that you should ask them. I am okay with it. I'm only worried about spies who would hurt people. Poison or murder us. I don't care about agents who are just spying. They would only learn what kind of people we are. Pavel Rubtsov found out what kind of person I was. He reported that I was a nice guy. Okay. They might even like me now. In prison I was in a very good relationship with the censors. I haven't seen all of them. Sometimes they would bring me letters. They were always very friendly. Why were they so friendly? They had to work much harder because of me. They were getting a lot of letters that they had to check. A lot of work. The head of prison told me that the censor would take my letters home to read them with her husband. Like in the Lives of Others movie. They would be working from home, too. Censors were always very friendly with me. I couldn't make my mind why. And then I realized that most of the letters were complimentary. People were praising me and wishing me all the best. They were thanking me for being a good person. Censors would read all of these letters. They realized that I wasn't a bad guy. These letters made them like me. I feel like Gonzalez liked me, too. Would being nice benefit you.. It would not benefit me..I don't think that it would damage me. I don't want to be a saint. I have my sins, too. I'm not a saint, to say the least. I'm a normal human being. I treat my sins with irony. I'm a man in his forties who is being adequate about himself. I have my stronger and weaker sides and I want people around me to treat me like a normal person. I would like to talk to you about prison. You were arrested three weeks after we released the interview with you. If I'm not mistaken. Yes. How did you feel on your way back from the interview? The Investigative Committee told me that this interview was the last straw for them. This is not your fault. You look so upset. I know that you were ready for prison..But I'm still upset. You shouldn't be upset for doing your job. I knew that this could happen to me. You asked me questions and I replied to them honestly. I knew how this could end for me. I don't know why I'm trying to soothe you. Let me say this again - this is not your fault. Thank you. I needed this piece of therapy. Okay. They told me that they had a meeting where they talked about the interview. And someone wondered why was Yashin still in Russia. And they were told that Yashin refused to leave the country despite their effort. Their effort was the arrest of Gorinov? The arrest of Gorinov, and threatening Irina Babloyan, a friend of mine. They would tell her to stay away from Yashin because he would soon be arrested. When they accused me of discrediting of Russian military, my lawyer was told that I would be arrested in a couple of weeks. They told the lawyer to make me leave the country. It was clear as day. And someone raised the question why was Yashin still in Russia. And they said that Yashin refused to leave. Yashin acted like he wasn't in danger. And then decided to arrest me. I was soon arrested during a walk in the park. They're usually arresting people in the morning. This time they arrested you in the evening during a walk in the park. This surprised me, too. I was expecting them to wake me up in the morning. I didn't have any stuff at home that they would take away from me. I don't why they did it in the evening. It feels like they were trying to arrest me next to my house. I spent the whole day working. In the evening I got tired and went for a walk. I texted Ira asking her out. She lived next to the Novodevichy monastery park and she agreed to go to the park with me. I took a car and drove to the park. I felt like they missed me on my way to the car. As soon as they found me they sent out their guys to arrest me. After you got arrested someone posted this on your channel:'The secret services took Yashin's phone away and tried to delete this channel.' 'Ilya's friends managed to get the channel back. We will be posting the news here' How did they manage to limit the access to your channel? I don't know. I gave all my passwords to a friend of mine who lives outside of Russia. He's an old friend of mine and I trust him. I asked him to keep my socials going in case I get arrested. I'm not aware of the technical side of it. I don't really care. Did they get into your cellphone? Of course, they did. Did you have your Face ID turned on? I didn't have a Face ID. I don't know how they hacked my phone. Or did they connect it to their computer? I don't know how they did it but they hacked it. There was nothing that they could find there. They gave me my phone back, by the way. After the court ruled out the sentence they gave me my phone back. When the prosecutor sought punishment he gave a political speech. He requested to sentence me to nine years of prison..Then he paused and said.. 'And to take his phone away' The judge said that the court ruled out a 8.5 years of prison. Then she looked at me and added: give him his phone back. This was her tiny protest. This is what I felt. I don't want to frame Oksana Ivanovna but I felt like this was a compliment from the chef. Can you tell us about the prison food. You said that it was very bad. Very bad. Porridge in the morning. Barley cereal. What is it? These are different types of barley. These are complex carbs. You can only eat this porridge with a lot of condensed milk if you can afford it. You can't buy it when you're in shizo. This porridge felt really heavy in my belly. I didn't feel full but my belly was so heavy. For lunch they would feed us with soup. Very greasy soup. Typically pea soup.. One time they gave us borshch with no beetroot. There was no beetroot but there was a thick layer of fat. It looked like oil that got spilled into the sea. Then they gave us very fat pasta. Pasta with canned meat. I called it Bolognese. It felt like they boiled this pasta with the meat. The whole pasta was covered in fat. This was disgusting. Prisoners would usually get rid of the fat, wash the pasta in the sink and add some spices. For dinner we would usually have potatoes with fish. You thought that this was cat food. This fish is usually used for cat food. Prisoners call this dish cat food. This fish is not even cleaned. We had to clean the fish before eating it. I found some worms in this fish. I showed it to the head of prison. He told me that I made it up until I showed it to him. You showed him a sample. I showed him this fish and the worms. Did you really keep this fish in your cell for some time? I put it in a box. Unless I show them evidence they wouldn't believe me. They asked me not to tell anyone and not to write any complaints. They told me this wouldn't happen again. You said there was room for improvement in penitentiary system. Would you like to see a reform of this system in the future? Not a reform. This system cannot be reformed. It has to be build from scratch. This system needs to be eliminated. Would prisoners be fed with something else? Of course, they would. Definitely. Prisoners should be given regular food. Such food is a humiliation. It is a humiliation to be eating this crap. A criminal, a thug, a fraud..Nobody should be eating this kind of food. This is a humiliation. Humiliation leads to aggression. Prisons are built to prevent new crimes and not to make criminals more aggressive. Prisoners should be fed better. Surely they wouldn't be getting restaurant food. Nevertheless they should be fed properly. You spent some time in Butyrka, one of the oldest detention centers. Three months. Is it different from other jails? Are there any vintage vibes? There are two types of prisons - the red and the black. Red prisons are very strict. Black prisons are more corrupt and friendly. There are phones and even booze in black prisons. They have a special block in this prison but still there was something going on there. We had a line in our cell..There were four of us..So we even had a line. There are lines in all cells in Butyrka. What lines? The lines are the local communication systems. Tiny ropes are connecting two cells. There is a sock at the end of the rope. This sock is used to transfer goods. It's a simple but elegant system. It requires some skills. After 10 pm they are maintaining the lines to communicate. Some prisoners are sending messages to each other..Some are transferring cigarettes and tea. This is how they would.. Communicate. Yes. Sometimes these lines could be used to transfer a cellphone. Not long after I arrived in the cell we received a cellphone. My mates asked me if I needed to call anyone. I thought that it would be stupid not to do it. I called.. Whom? I called my mom and two of my friends. I was very happy. Did you have to pay anything for these calls? Yes, I gave them something in return. I was very glad to have an opportunity to call my mom. This ended very quickly for me. My mates invited me for a conversation. They told me they wouldn't let me call anyone even though our cell did nothing wrong. Did you frame others? The thing is that the FSB officers arrived on the next day and kicked the guards' asses. They told the guards to never give Yashin the phone. These phones are a part of bribery that is going on in the prison. My mates told me that I was a special prisoner.. What does this mean? Yes, the guards were always looking after me. They had a chip on your shoulder. They did. They had a special mark next to my name. So I was no longer allowed to use the cellphone. I understood them and accepted it. How did they find out that you called your mom? What phone were they wiretapping? I don't know. They're definitely wiretapping someone. They were probably wiring the prison phone. You said that there were lots of cats in Butyrka. Lots of cats. There are cats in many prisons, by the way. Can they enter a cell through a small door? There are cats who live in some cells. Some cats give birth to kittens..There are prisoners who are staying in the detention center for two or three years. Some people are waiting for their sentence for three years. They adopt a kitten and it stays in their cell. Like Shalamov wrote: to show how much you miss tenderness. I wrote about this on my socials. Some guy got released from Butyrka when they put him under house arrest. His cat stayed in prison. Human rights activists negotiated with the prison administration and they agreed to transfer the cat to the man's wife. The transferred the cat through the prison gate. This is a touching story. Absolutely. There were cats in many prisons that I've been to. They have cats for a reason. Cats catch mice. Mice are a huge problem in prisons. They are eating all the food.. Mice or rats? I would usually encounter mice. Cats helped to get rid of them. It's not only about petting a cat... There is also a practical reason. Are you aware how popular prison rules videos are on YouTube? I'm not. There are millions of views.. I guess, I've got to make such a video, too. Millions of views. Entering a prison cell is an important ritual that you have faced, too. I have. It wasn't hard for me because they knew who I was. When they put me in Kapotnya detention center..This is a quarantine prison where I would spend around two weeks. They put me in a solitary cell first and then they put me in a big cell with other prisoners. Some big guy jumped off his bed and walked up to me. I was standing there with my mattress. He asked me:'What do you do?' 'What's the deal?' This means what they put me in prison for. This was happening late at night. He asked me if I was a cool man. Some guy next to him told him this was Yashin, the opposition member. He asked this guy to leave me alone. They showed me my bed and told me to go to bed. I didn't really have to protect myself. I saw other prisoners entering the cell. Sometimes they looked very confused. If you're a guy with long hair they would ask you if you like *nal sex. If they find out that you're guy then you'll be in trouble. What if you are really gay.. You have to tell them. You shouldn't be entering a regular cell. You will be sent to a special cell for.. Gay people. Not particularly gay people..A cell for those who are not allowed to live in a regular cell. Would you tell the guards that you are gay? No, you would tell the prisoners that you are gay and they would call a guard. They would tell the guard that this person cannot stay in the cell with them. The guard would send this person to another cell. If these Parliament Deputies who are secretly gay get to prison would they be also sent to a special cell? Unless this system changes - yes. I know that you are trolling.. I am trolling but I'm really curious. You don't have to tell them that you are gay. They don't know anything about you. But if some day they find out that your are gay, they would beat you up. According to their rules, gay people can't eat with them or use their plates. If you lie to them about not being gay you would have to take the responsibility. Gosh, why do I know this! Yes.. This sounds disgusting. How can they prove if somebody is gay? Let's imagine that I'm gay. A lot of people believe that I'm gay. This is a popular opinion on the Internet. You have two kids and a wife! Well, this doesn't prove anything. I could be bisexual, too. If I, God forbid, went to prison.. What if someone sent them a link to a video claiming that I was gay.. A claim versus a claim. This doesn't prove anything. If they see a video of you..This has happened before. One opposition activist..I don't want to mention his name.. Someone leaked his sex tape. I know this story. What would they do if they see a deepfake video? I've never thought about this. Really? I don't know. Luckily, I'm not making these rules. It's an interesting question. You should have asked me earlier. A proper prisoner should be curious about the rules. If you don't get the rules - ask someone. I would like to ask them your question. Have you ever seen anyone being treated unfairly? Of course, I have. Did you have a right to stop it? I did. Could you do it? I could. There was a very tough moment for me.. We had a guy that was being bullied. The proper prisoners are called black prisoners. Prisoners who collaborate with the guards are called red prisoners. These people do all the dirty work in the cell. We were kept in a high-security prison and such people are called goats. There was this guy from Belarus called Max. He couldn't protect himself. They kept bullying him. They were humiliating him all the time. There were three eighteen year old prisoners who kept bullying him. They would make him switch the TV-channel for them. They treated him as a servant. They dismissed him. They did. And it made me mad. I talked to them and asked them to stop. 'You're eighteen years old. Can't you stand up and change the channel?' We even had arguments. I asked this guy if he couldn't change the channel. I asked him why he made Max do it. I told him to stop mocking Max to feel more confident. He got mad at me. He called me out. We went to another room. I'm a calm person and I wanted to talk to him. I asked him why he was being so aggressive. He said that I was right but I didn't have to say this in front of everyone. He said that I should have talked to him in person. I agreed with him. I told him that in the future I wouldn't talk to him in front of everyone. However, he was still wrong for bullying Max. A self-respecting person would never act this way. He's an 18 year old guy with his whole life in front of him. I'm a man in my forties. I told him that this is not what a self-respecting man does to the weaker ones. I told him that he embarrassed himself and not Max. I've got to say that he listened to me. There were other young guys who kept bullying him. They were all nice when they were alone but when there were three of them they turned into a pack of wolves. They were trying to look cool in front of each other. This situation ended quite dramatically. At some point this guy that I had talked to ran to me and called me. We ran to the toilet and saw Max ripping his face with his nails. He was taking his skin off with his bare hands. They sent him to hospital that evening. He was desperate. He wasn't desperate. He had a breakdown. He was a sensitive guy. I talked to his bullies and told them this outcome was quite fortunate. Thank God Max just scratched his face. What if he hanged himself? How would they feel about it? What if we saw him hanging the next morning? How would they feel about it? Did they feel sorry? I feel like they did. I'm not sure about it. They didn't disagree. They looked like they were sorry. How did you find out about Navalny's death? He died on Friday, as you might remember. One of the guards told me the news. He told me:'I've heard that Navalny got killed' Did he say killed? He did. The prison guard. Yes. I asked him where he got the news from. He said he read this on Telegram. It wasn't clear if this was a suicide or a homicide. I asked him if he was sure about what he read. He said he read it on several news channels. I was held in a high-security cell and I didn't have a phone with me. I met my lawyer earlier that day. I just came back from his visit and the guard told me the news. I couldn't ask my lawyer that day. I didn't really believe him. I'd heard such rumors before. When he disappeared on his way to Harp someone reported that he died during the trip. I got used to such fake news. I kept this in mind and waited until Monday. On Monday my lawyer came to see me and told me the news. This was the first thing that I asked him. He told me that Alexei passed away. He said that Alexei got killed. It took you three days to find out. I didn't believe the news on Friday. Well, this says a lot about the isolation of a prisoner. It does. This was a high-security prison. Your mom told Katya Gordeeva that she was worried about you. She was worried that you would have a mental breakdown. How did you react to the news? This was very tough. I was on the verge of a breakdown. My mom was right. I couldn't believe it. When my lawyer told me the news I almost blacked out. I was close to falling down. I sat down and kept asking my lawyer about it. What do you mean? He's dead? Is he gone now? Did he really die? Is this confirmed? Is it officially confirmed? This can't be real. Is he dead now? This conversation continued for a while because I couldn't believe it. I couldn't accept it. I needed some time to accept this. I realized that I was close to a breakdown and got it together. I couldn't afford having a breakdown in prison. It would be very hard for me to recover from it. You can't be weak in a high-security prison. You can't get too emotional. You have to control yourself. I managed to stay collected and to deal with it. Did you ever cry in prison? I cried once when I got arrested. They drove me to Petrovka, 38. I wrote a letter to my mom and caught myself crying. It surprised me. I was ready to go to prison. I used to think that I was prepared for it. I needed to stay brave and keep my head up. This is what I prepared myself for. After the court session they put me in a cell. I was alone in this cell. I was writing a letter to my mom and suddenly broke down in tears. Why? I was worried for my mom. I was worried about her reaction. I didn't know how she would deal with it and live with it. I was worried about her having a breakdown. She didn't give up, though. How did the guards react to Navalny's death? They didn't care. They were neither gloating nor terrified. Well, the guards and the prisoners told me that this was predictable. Navalny stood up against Putin and investigated corruption in Russia. He talked shit about Putin..And then he came back to Russia.. What else did he expect? They were cynical about his death. They weren't surprised that the government killed an opposition leader. I feel like this is now a common thing in Russia. Violence has become a norm. We have put up with the fact that our authorities can kill us. They can always kill the prisoners. And everyone agrees with this. Nobody was worried about this assassination. Somebody told me that he was surprised that I was still alive. He didn't mean to offend me. He was genuinely surprised. Nobody is surprised now when a member of opposition dies. And they want us to get used to it. They are trying to normalize it. They are. You'd known Navalny for 23 years. Was this conversation in the court your last interaction with him? What conversation are you talking about? The one where you said that you liked his robe. Yes, this was our last interaction. When was the last time you met him? In the court in Vladimir? Yes, but I couldn't even shake his hand there. I saw him in Pokrov when I arrived at the hearing as a witness. The last time I hugged him was in August 2020. Before he got poisoned. Yes, we were planning to go to a concert in August. We were planning to go to a Zatochka concert. Wow. A new sheriff in town. They are one of my favorite bands. I introduced Navalny to their music and he became a fan instantly. He had a favorite song about the paddy wagon. A love story of a police man and a protester. Yes. He quoted this song on his Instagram when he wished his wife Yulia a happy birthday. I heard Sheriff playing on the radio when I was arrested for 15 days. I googled this song when I was released and sent Navalny a couple of songs. I told him he would definitely love this band. We were planning to see them live in August 2020. I met their frontman Yura. I told him we were coming to the show. We didn't come to the show because Navalny got poisoned and transported to Berlin. In twenty year from now your kids would google Navalny and would ask you to tell them who he was and what he did. What would you tell them? I would tell them that he showed me how to live my life with dignity and openness. He inspired a lot of people around him. This is what I would say. You were interview by TV Rain 48 hours after you got released from prison. They asked you about the future of this war in Ukraine. You told them that the negotiations were necessary. On the following day you said that we can't let Putin swallow Ukraine because he wouldn't stop there. He would swallow Ukraine. If we let him swallow Ukraine. 'If some German authorities think that he would be pleased with some part of Ukraine - this is not going to happen' 'Dictators always see such softness as a weakness' 'If you abandon Ukraine - he would get to you, too' 'Putin will invade Baltic countries and Poland next' For a lot of people these two statements sounded contradictory. Can you explain what you meant? There is no contradiction. My TV Rain interview wasn't too good. I wasn't very good at phrasing what I thought. I didn't say that Ukraine should give up some of their territories at the negotiations. It's up to Ukraine to decide when and how to negotiate. I didn't mean to say that they should give up their territories for peace. I meant that sooner or later there will be negotiations which would be appropriate for Ukraine. I don't think that Ukraine is going to agree to give up some of their land. This is obvious to me. In these two years of prison I was out of context. I didn't know that some words would trigger the audience. I didn't expect to see such a backlash. It turned out that the word 'negotiations' was such a trigger. Nobody would listen to me after I said this word. Everyone saw it as a pro-Kremlin narrative. I didn't know this. My opinion hasn't changed since 2014. I've always said that Russia needs to withdraw its troops from Ukraine. I said this on my livestreams before the war. I said this on my last word in the court. And I'm saying this now. Look - suggesting negotiations is not always a pro-Kremlin narrative. There are people who don't support Putin and were happy when you and other prisoners got swapped. These people support the negotiations because they don't feel like killing thousands of people makes a lot of sense now. This is not a pro-Kremlin narrative. This particular word - negotiations - triggers a lot of people. Quite a lot of Russians and Ukrainians overreact to some trigger-words. You say this word and they begin to suspect you right away. Even though you didn't mean it. They wouldn't listen to you and you wouldn't be able to explain what you meant. I will take this into account. I've been out of context for two years. It takes me some time to figure out what these trigger words are. Should you take this into account? I feel like I should. I want to be heard. I don't want to annoy anyone. I want to explain what I think. I need to find the right words to be heard. Sometimes politicians should go against the mainstream opinion, shouldn't they? You were talking about dilemmas with two bad choices. I'm trying to say that there different ways to express yourself. You can avoid some words..You can bring up some analogies, like your mom. You would tell me 'What does my mom have to do with it?' So I need to be able to explain what I mean in a careful way. Why do I consider my TV Rain interview to be not good? I was out of context and didn't know that certain words would take all the attention away from what I meant. Can you explain how you see the future of this war? I think that the negotiations will begin some day. I don't think that I should be talking about the right moment to start the negotiations. Ukraine suffered from the military aggression and it is up to them to decide when to negotiate. They are the only side that can start the negotiations on terms that they would consider appropriate. I'm a Russian citizen. My government started this military aggression and I want to say that it damages both Ukraine and Russia. My goal as a politician is to explain to Russians how much this war damages our country. Some people say that if you don't support this war, you don't like Russia. I'm trying to explain that being patriotic means not supporting this war. Russia doesn't need Ukrainian land. We have enough land in Russia. The people of Russia would benefit from ending this war. This is what I was saying before the war started. I would say this on my livestreams. They put me in prison when I told people about Bucha. They arrested me for.. Talking about Bucha on your livestream. I was trying to explain that Russia committed crimes in Ukraine. War crimes. We can't do that. This is my role today. I need to address the people of Russia and make them realize that this war is a tragedy for our country, too. I get it. Here is how your statements looked: You went out of prison and shared a very unpopular opinion that both sides should stop grinding their people. You suggested to do something about it. A lot of anti-war Russians considered this to be a ballsy move because none of Russian opposition members talked about negotiations. Yavlinsky talks about negotiations. This is a terrible example. Pretty terrible. But still this is true. You didn't make any deals with the government, unlike Yavlinsky. It doesn't matter if he did this once or multiple times. You were talking about ballsy moves. This is Yavlinsky's position. He's got a reputation.. We can't suspect Ilya Yashin in being Kremlin's agent. This isn't something that Kremlin allowed you to say. On the following day you explained what you meant and it looked like one of two options: You either cowered to mainstream opinion or your Western handlers told you what to say and what not to say. What can you say in response? First of all, there are no Western handlers. Neither Western, nor Russian. I can't imagine anyone telling me what to say. I went to prison for saying what I thought. What about cowering to mainstream opinion? I didn't phrase my opinion right. I shouldn't have given that interview unprepared. This is what I did wrong. I said this before the war and during the war. I said this many-many times very clearly. I don't feel like I have a right to tell Ukraine how to end this war. Ukraine is a victim of the war. If Ukraine decides to begin negotiating - they have a right to do so. If they think it's too soon to negotiate - okay. So your answer to what should be done with this war is - you don't know? I don't have an answer to this question. If I knew the solution I would have already won the Nobel Peace prize. I can tell you one thing: let's look at it from a human side. This is a very sensitive topic for me, very personal. The war in Ukraine is more than just a political event. This is my personal tragedy. I really want this war to end. I want it to be over. The war in Ukraine took some people that I knew personally. I consider Boris Nemtsov to be one of the first victims of this war. In 2015 Nemtsov organized an anti-war protest. In 2014. 2014, yes. He did this in the center of Moscow. He started this protest. 50 thousand people showed up at the protest carrying Russian and Ukrainian flags. I can't think of such a protest today. A few months later Boris got killed. He was one of the first victims of the war. I was sentenced to 8.5 years of prison for talking about this war. In prison I talked to people who signed a contract with Russian military. These prisoners were willing to go to war and to die there. I'll ask you about them later. I failed to convince some of them not to do it. They went to war and they died there. I managed to convince three people not to do it. I could have made all of them not go to war. This failure traumatized me. I failed to convince them to stay. The war in Ukraine is very personal for me. I really want it to end. Sometimes interviewers would catch and I wouldn't give a good answer. I'm Russian and my government started this war. Thousands of people are dying because of my country. I don't have a right to tell Ukrainians to start the negotiations. I can't tell them what to do. I can't even give them any advice unless they asked me. Do you have an answer to what should be done with the war now? I don't. You think that you don't have a right to say it. I don't have an answer. I don't know what to do with this war. I know what I can do. I know what I should be doing. I don't know how to stop the war. I'm not mocking you. I'm trying to get your opinion as Russian anti-war politician. I get it. The honest answer is that I don't have an answer. I don't know how to stop the war. If I knew what to do I would do my best to end the war. You said that you talked to thirty prisoners about not going to war and only three of them stayed. You said that a guy who slept on a bed next to yours went to war and died on his first fight. How did you find out about his death in his first fight? From the letters. Prisoners' families are also texting each other. I saw some of the prisoners in a bath. I met a guy who used to be my cellmate. His mom wrote to him that our cellmate died in his first fight. How did you manage to convince some of them not to go to war? This might be helpful for others. I tried to be rational. I told them they would get killed. If you think you won't get killed - you will. If you think that you are a talented fighter - you will get killed. You are a prisoner. Nobody hires you to be a guard or to drive a car. You are hired to be a cannon fodder. You are a prisoner. You won't have any rights there. You will be sent to die. In the best case scenario you will be crippled. You will lose a leg or an arm. Or you will lose half of your head. You will spend the rest of your life lying in bed unwanted. Money won't buy you another life or another limb. This risk is not worth it. You are going to die in this war. I also talked to them about the morals. You are coming there to make some money. You will be fighting people who are defending their country. It is okay to defend your country when the enemy attacks it. It is okay to fight when they burn your house. You protect your country and your family. It is not okay to invade another country and to kill people who are trying to defend it. There are so many war crimes happening. I told them about Bucha. It's not okay to kill people in another country and to commit war crimes. Even if you survive you would have to deal with it for the rest of your life. Do you think that fighting is easy? You will have to get used to seeing so much blood. There was a man who was religious. He had already fought at the war and wanted to go back. They put him in prison for arms trafficking. Exactly. He fought in Ukraine, then he came back.. He didn't come back. He got arrested at the front. For selling arms.. Yes, they were trafficking arms..They sent him to Moscow and arrested him there. He was waiting for his sentence to sign another contract and to go to war. We spent a few months in this cell. Someone sent me a book about the history of religion. He was curious about my book so I started talking to him. I said - you are a religious man. The Bible tells you to not kill. How can you be killing others? This is a sin. You believe that killing is wrong - why would you kill then? Alexei Uminsky helped me talk to this man. Uminsky is an Orthodox priest who was defrocked for refusing to pray for Russian victory in this war. Alexei Uminsky sends letters to political prisoners with some brief sermons. He talks about conscience, commandments..I really liked his letters. His letters helped me understand what religion was about. He wrote some very good sermons. I gave these letters to my cellmate. I told him that I received an interesting letter about religion that he would probably like. He started reading these letters and asked me if he could keep them. I said he could. We would argue a lot. Sometimes we would get mad at each other. I'd say:'I don't get it. You're a grown man. You're saying that this is a dirty war' 'You're telling me that the commanders are bastards. Why are you willing to fight again?' 'Why can't you stay in prison and then come back to your normal life?' He told me that his mates died at the war. At some point I almost gave up. And then he walked up to me and said: 'I have decided not to go to war.' Do you consider this to be your victory? He can still change his mind. I can't call this a victory. I think that it is all worth it. I didn't waste my time when I talked to him. I made him hesitate - at least this is something. Kara-Murza or someone else used the phrase 'opinion calibration' He said that the released prisoners would now need to calibrate their views. Should we expect some kind of calibration from you? Was this calibration when you changed your mind about the negotiations? Yes, I think so. We've been out of context for two years. There's been a lot of debates happening in politics that I missed. I wouldn't call this a calibration..But I need to study some of the stuff that happened recently. I'll have to watch some videos, some interviews. I've read some interviews in prison..I will need some time to catch up. At least a month. Why would you go to so many interviews before catching up? Shouldn't you stay quiet for some time? I'm sorry for giving you advice. You are absolutely right and this is what I'm going to do. After two years in prison I need to do some talking now. I need to say something after getting released. I should answer to some questions about the swap. I should state my opinion and clarify some of the stuff..This is my job. I have to be clear. Soon I will take a break. I need to get some rest. I need to recover mentally and physically. Two years in prison for stressful for my body and my mind. I need to take a break and to do some sunbathing. I need to start eating healthy and to do get back into shape. I need to breathe some fresh air. I need to read and to watch everything that I missed. And then I would come back to work. You are absolutely right, I need to take a break. After talking to you I will do a couple of more interviews.. And then I'm taking a break. You read a lot of books. I did. Can you name top-3 or top-5 your favorite books from prison? I read a lot of good books. I would name a book by Victor Frankl, an Austrian psychologist. He explained how to survive in a concentration camp. He survived the Nazi concentration camps and shared his experience. This is an amazing book that doesn't only tell you how to survive in prison.. But it also tells you how to live your life. Anyone would find this book helpful. There's a bunch of lifehacks in the book. This book helped me a lot. I read it first when I was arrested for 15 days. I made a right decision when I read it. I also liked a book by Bernhard Schlink called the Reader. I'd watched the movie based on this book starring Kate Winslet. This is one of my favorite movies. I feel like Kate Winslet is one of the best actresses of our time. This is a movie about a former concentration camp guard who met a prisoner.. She didn't know how to read and he would read her books. I don't want to spoil the book..I really liked the book and the movie. The movie compliments the book very well. I would recommend to first read the book and then to watch the movie. Schlink also released a great novel last year, it is called The Granddaughter. I liked this book a lot. I finally discovered Isaac Asimov. I was planning to read some of his books for a long time. I read the Academy trilogy. I'm not a fan of science fiction but this trilogy was great. I really liked the dive. I also discovered Khaled Hosseini, an Afghan writer. I read his novel The Kite Runner. I enjoyed re-reading some of my favorite books. I read Resurrection by Leo Tolstoy. This is my favorite novel of Tolstoy where he described.. The case against the political prisoners. It's a very big book about the judicial system in Russia. In prison this book had a different impact on me. I enjoyed reading Gennady Gorelik's books about Andrey Sakharov. The book is called Andrey Sakharov, Science and Freedom. I didn't understand the part where the author talked about Sakharov scientific accomplishments.. But at least I finally understood.. His genius? I understood the difference between a nuclear and a thermonuclear explosion. I heard these terms before but I never thought about them. This book explained the difference between the two. And it explained the genius of Sakharov not only as a public figure but also as a scientist. When I was transferred to Lefortovo I didn't have any books with me. The head of prison asked me if he could bring anything to me. I asked him to bring me a book. I told him I would get bored without a book. In a couple of hours he called me Sakharov's memoirs. I was reading about Solzhenitsyn's deportation and the Bukovsky swap before I got deported. This book prepared me for the swap. You had a lot of time to read books. The perks of going to prison. I wouldn't be reading as much outside of prison. After two years of prison what did you learn about the Federal Penitentiary Service workers? These people are typically miserable. These people have to be a part of a very vicious cycle. They have to work overtime. They lack employees. They would only have a couple of days off a month. These people suffer from humiliation by their bosses. They have to tolerate all this humiliation. They have to do some stuff that has nothing to do with their work. Sometimes the head of prison would have to open the locks.. The locks? The locks to the cells. Or he would bring us food. The head of prison once told me:'I don't really like Navalny but I read one of his interviews..' 'He said that the FPS system was broken and he was right' Navalny wanted to start a union of FPS workers. He did. Why are you smiling? Their textbooks say that when a prisoner wants to start a union it should be treated as a riot. Starting a union is equal to starting a riot in prison. This looked like a good political move from him. This head of prison agreed with him so he reached his goal. Absolutely. I talked to my guards..I like talking to people. Prison gave me an opportunity to talk to people that I wouldn't usually talk to. I would ask them a lot of questions. I listened to them. I would mostly listen to them. I would talk to them if they asked me anything. Mostly I would ask them questions. I wrote down some of their replies. I talked to guards..Some of them were pretty young. Most of them told me that they were disappointed in their job but they couldn't leave. After studying for five years they had to work there for a few years. If you leave the job you have to pay for your education. They are forced to stay and eventually they turn into bad people. I liked listening to them. They are obviously unhappy with their position. And we as politicians can work with them. What do you mean? I feel like we can address these people and gain their support. I talked to them and I asked them what would they change in the penitentiary system.. I asked them what should be changed to make their job less useless. I wasn't laughing at them. I was really curious to hear their thoughts. I would ask them about it regularly. Do you believe that this system should be eliminated first? There is no way to reform it. This system is based on humiliation. Their primary goal is to break the prisoners, not fix them. This is a very wrong approach. We should learn from the Scandinavian countries. We should hire more educators and psychologists. We should get rid of the brutal force. This can be done if we learn from other countries. Should we provide people like Breivik with a three-bedroom apartment and Wi-Fi? I'm not sure that he stays in a three-bedroom apartment..Should terrorists be held in comfortable cells? Let me say it again. The goal of any prison should be to fix the criminals. The criminals should be fixed not based on the punishment but on the education. There are criminals like pedophiles and killers..I don't think that they can be re-educated. But the system in general should not humiliate the prisoners. Humiliation leads to more aggression. Let's leave Breivik aside. Think of a criminal that gets humiliated in prison. What would this lead to? He would humiliate people who are weaker than him. This approach brings the opposite results. If we need to provide Breivik with decent food to re-educate other criminals, let him eat decent food. At least we would be able to save other prisoners and help them recover. You only had your toothbrush and your toothpaste when you got released. Your picture with Mariya Pevchikh shopping in H&M went viral. We didn't go shopping together. She bought me some clothes and brought them to the hospital where I stayed. She brought me bags of new clothes. I took these bags from her. She's a tiny girl, these bags were heavy. Did she buy all the clothes herself? She did. She's bossy. When she asked me if I needed anything I told her that I trusted her to pick what she wanted. I was sure that she would buy me nice clothes. Who's paying for your stay in Germany now? We saw you using an iPhone 15. Who's paying for your stay in Germany now? We saw you using an iPhone 15. My friends lent me some money. I'm going to pay them back later. I have some savings. I made some money from YouTube. I saved some money before they sent me to prison. I gave some money to my parents so that they could buy me stuff and pay my bills. I got released sooner than I expected so I still have some savings left. I don't have a credit card. I can't cash out from YouTube. I need to take care of my loans and then I would think about what's next for me. Your team was working for this whole time.. Yes, they were working. They all live outside of Russia. They do. Who was paying them salary for the last two years? We were making money from YouTube. From donations? From monetization and donations. They were making videos regularly. They didn't make a lot of money.. They volunteered to do this job and we managed to pay them some salary. They all have other jobs. Vlad, who edits my videos, works for other YouTube channels, too. Nika also worked for other channels. They all have other jobs. They worked for me as volunteers. They did it out of respect. What are you going to do with your honorary citizen of Paris status? I'm going to be proud of it. This is an honorary status. Is it the honorary citizen or the honorary resident? The honorary citizen, I guess. This is a human rights award. Nelson Mandela was also given this award. I was surprised to have received it but I'm grateful for it. A Russian politician who is also an honorary citizen of Paris might be more significant in the West. I'll soon find out if this hypothesis is true or not. There will be a ceremony where they would hand me the certificate. I'll have an opportunity to perform at the Paris City Office. I hope I will be able to share my thoughts with the Western audience. What language are you going to speak there? Russian. I always speak Russian in my performances. Does it matter? Why wouldn't you speak English? I don't want Putin's propaganda to see me speaking English. I remember how they filmed Kasparov getting arrested at the protests in Moscow. Kasparov was giving an interview to an American reporter. They showed it on TV claiming that Kasparov was talking to his handlers. This is a manipulation and a lie but I don't want to give them a chance to do it again. I prefer to speak Russian in my public performances. How good is your English? It's quite good. I can perform in English. It got worse in the last two years.. I'm talking to foreign reporters a lot now. I need to recover my English after two years in prison. Usually I prefer to speak Russian in my public performances. Is it about the propaganda or is your English not good enough? It's about the propaganda..I'm not very confident in my English skills.. However, I am able to prepare for a public performance in English. I saw two kinds of reaction to you being released on Twitter. The first one is: this man was arrested for being handsome. And the second is: Yashin, the guy who kicked the cat. We haven't talked about it on our previous interview. There is a video of a guy who looks like you kicking a cat. What video is that? There was a Moscow Parliament campaign and they needed to discredit me. They picked a weird way to do it. They made this video and posted it on the Internet. I guess, it was even show on TV. They said: a stranger shot a man who looked like Yashin kicking a cat. There was a man in a coat similar to mine and a haircut similar to mine. He was shooting some video and the cat walked by. He kicked the cat and the cat jumped away. I don't think that anyone believed this video. It didn't cause me any damage. It was clear that it was fake. This man looked exactly like you. I had to pause the video to look at his face closer. I can tell you what happened next. I was contacted by a man who claimed that he worked at MosFilm and he said that he set up the lighting for this video. There is no proof of this claim. He told me that he didn't know what they were filming. He felt bad when he found out. He wanted to tell me that I might be familiar with the man who played me in the video. He said that this was Yury Kuklachev's son. I googled this man right away. I found out that he was a member of United Russia. And I found out that he looked like me. Let's google him. I guess, they held a meeting where they discussed discrefiting me before the elections. Yury Kuklachev's son. Well..Not really.. Is it him? Look at him. There are similarities.. I guess, he's bigger than you. He used to be slimmer when I googled him. He's got a similar nose and a haircut. There is a comment under the video:'The cat didn't run away after the kick. It looks like this is a domestic trained cat' This could really be a trained Kuklachev's cat. Imagine that we work in the President's Office. We want to shoot a video where the opposition member lookalike would kick a cat. Who would we call? Who's that guy who trains the cats? Kuklachev! He's a member on United Russia. Let me clarify that I'm not sure about it. This is what I was told. We don't to spread fake news like the news of Yulia Navalnaya's German citizenship. Absolutely. I've got to say that I'm not sure. There is no proof but I believe that this is what really happened. You're giving me Artemy Lebedev vibes now. You know it better. I've never met him. At the press-conference there was also a Leonid Volkov name tag on the table. But later it got removed. This was a pity. I know that this name tag caused a lot of talks.. I can tell you how this press-conference was organized. Me, Pivovarov, and Kara-Murza watched the news while we were at the hospital. We realized that we had to state our opinion as soon as possible. Our silence looked weird because people were expecting to hear from us. I suggested to have a press-conference. The guys were a bit confused because they didn't know how to arrange it. Volkov, Pevchikh, and Zhdanov came to see us in the hospital. I suggested that we would ask them to arrange the press-conference for us. Pivovarov and Kara-Murza agreed and I called Volkov. I told him that he could help us arrange this press-conference. He called me back a couple of hours later and said that he agreed with Deutsche Welle, where a friend of mine Olga Shorina works now. Volkov told me that he would take care of the press-conference and our job was to think of what we would say. Later he came to the hospital and told me that DW wanted him to manage the press-conference. This wasn't a good idea. Volkov said that this wasn't a good idea. Yes. He told me and Kara-Murza that DW wanted him to manage the press-conference. And he refused to do it. He said that he didn't like this idea. And we agreed with him. He said that he would ask them to let us sit there alone. I know that the situation is really heated now.. I've been there and I know what happened. This is a pity. Sometimes a banana is just a banana. There are different opinions on what role ACF played in the swap. What do you know about it? I don't know anything about it. I know that Russian opposition leaders sent out lists of Russian political prisoners to German authorities. I don't know what exactly ACF did to make this swap happen. Are you planning to collaborate with ACF in the future? Of course, I am planning to do it. Why not? I'm planning to collaborate with everyone. Prison made a very tolerant and composed person. Prison made much more composed. I don't want to fight anyone. I'm going to be friendly with everyone. I have no problems with ACF. I've known them for a long time, they are the Navalny Team. I've known them personally for many years. Why wouldn't I work with them? Is it possible that you would join their team? I don't think so. I'm not planning to join anyone. I'm not going to join any organizations or to be hired by anyone. I'm planning to stay independent. However, I'm open to working with all the members of opposition. Have you heard about the Zheleznyak case? I am not familiar with the details of this case. There was some investigation.. Supposedly, according to Maxim Katz, ACF claimed that Zheleznyak was prosecuted for his views despite the fact the he robbed his depositors. At the same time he is a sponsor of ACF (the founder of ACF legal entity in the US). I'm being honest, I'm not trying to avoid this question. I haven't read this investigation yet. I've been here for four days only I haven't had enough time to read everything. I can't comment on that case. I can assure you that the ACF guys are 100% decent. I've known them for a long time. They can make mistakes and become too emotional. But I have zero doubts in their dignity and integrity. You're talking about Leonid Volkov, too, aren't you? Him, too. Are you aware of the Friedman letter case? I am. Leonid Volkov lied to his team and signed the paper asking to lift sanctions on Friedman. I hope I'm not making anything up. Volkov's team didn't know about it. When they found out they announced that he would step down for some time. He did resign. He took the responsibility. Officially he resigned, but did he stop making key decisions in ACF? I don't know about that. I don't know who is making decisions in ACF. I guess, Pevchikh replaced him as the head of ACF. She did. I'm out of this context. I respect ACF for what they've done to protect freedom. However, I have some questions to them. Even though I respect their work. Did you have an interview with Volkov? I did not. Why not? Why wouldn't you ask him these questions? You said that you didn't have any problems with their reputation.. It seems like you have some problems with their reputation. I asked you if this case was a problem for you. This is when I asked you about it. Please place it on record! I feel like you could have an interesting conversation with Volkov, considering your questions to him. I would like to see this interview as a viewer. I'm not putting any pressure on you. I can see that you've got some questions to Volkov. The next step is obvious. You're a good friend for avoiding this question. One of our editors asked you not to go on Twitter and to remain the only Russian politician who would stay away from these Twitter fights. What should I tell our editor? Yesterday I met Vladimir Milov. I've known him for a long time. Nemtsov introduced him into politics. I've known him since 2008. We were happy to see each other. Milov told me that he didn't expect me to look so calm and happy after prison. He asked me how did I manage to stay healthy after two years of prison? I told him that I didn't have Twitter for two years. This might be the key to success. Tell you editor that I'm aware of this problem. I've heard about your Twitter fights even in prison. My Twitter fights? I mean those who took part. We all suffer from these fights. I've heard about these fights in prison. This is the last thing that I need to do now. Do you know what Milov posts on Twitter? Pivovarov received some printouts from Twitter. I asked people not to send me any printouts from Twitter. I don't know how told whom to fuck off. Someone asked you on your livestream whether you would make peace with Maxim or not. You said that you didn't have any problems with Maxim Reznik. This is true. Don't you understand.. Of course, I do understand. You elegantly trolled Maxim Katz. I didn't troll him. I don't want to talk about all these conflicts. I don't want to be involved. I don't want you to get involved. I just saw this question.. Some people want me to get involved. I don't want to have any beefs with anyone. I would only fight the people who are turning my country into ruins and are taking away our freedom. They are my opponents. I don't have any opponents on Twitter among other opposition members. I want to fight Vladimir Putin's regime. Are you willing to collaborate with Maxim Katz? What do you mean by collaborating? I feel like if some projects can consolidate the community, we should all take part in such projects. Telethons supporting political prisoners are a great example of such projects. My channel took part in the telethon as well as ACF and Katz. Such projects are easy to work together on. Our goal is to have more such projects that would unite us. The reporter Ilya Barabanov once tweeted: Ilya Yashin has got a stain on his reputation: Let me guess: a fan of Spartak? A fan of Spartak. How were you following football matches from prison? There would usually be a TV in big cells in detention centers. With Match TV available? Yes, I even managed to watch the World Cup finals between Argentina and France. I was so happy. During the Euros I was already in a high-security prison..This was the first Euros in my life that I have missed entirely. I would really like to see the game between Georgia and Portugal. I've heard that Spain played some great matches at this Euros. They were a pleasure to watch. My cellmate was a football fan, too. We were betting on who's going to win. He's a CSKA fan. It felt like a provocation that they put us in the same cell. We talked about football a lot because he's following Russian Premier League and the European Leagues. He bet on England before the finals. I didn't bet on anyone..We haven't seen a single game at the Euros. We're both armchair quarterbacks. England had the best squad but Spain had a better team. So we were trying to weigh in their chances to win.. We came to the conclusion that England would win because of their star power. They didn't.. You didn't get to experience it fully because you got arrested but you've just described Russian political YouTube segment. A lot of armchair quarterbacks telling us what Putin is going to do. They're making it all up. Well, this happens a lot in life. People on the socials are always acting like they know everything. Some people manage to stay away from it. Some people would keep quiet when they don't know the truth. This happens rarely nowadays. During the pandemic we were all experts in vaccines. During the war everyone turned into military experts. During the World Cup everyone turned into a football pundit. This relates to most of the people in the socials. You're going to discover a lot of stuff soon. You'd see another political expert what Putin meant when he made some decision. I was receiving some letters with some posts. Some YouTube experts claimed that I regretted not leaving Russia. They were talking about my motivation and my thoughts. I had a lot of fun reading these posts. This was my guilty pleasure. You made a video: Two years into Putin's war: three main conclusions. One of them is the destruction of Russian economy. Yes. Why do you think that it is destroyed? I feel like Russian economy is an engine that is working at maximum capacity. No engine can work at maximum capacity forever. It is going to wear. They are spending the reserves. The militarization of Russia production industry would lead to severe consequences. Time will tell. I'm not an economist and I can't make any forecasts. I feel like the current economic model would result in an economic crisis quite soon. It feels like Russian economy hasn't collapsed yet. Some people are saying that Russian economy is growing. They are spending the reserves. One day there will be no reserves left. Can you name three steps that you are going to take as a politician now? Of course, I can. I will continue to educate people on this war. This is what I was doing before my arrest. I will try to find a way to tell Russians about the damage that this was causes to our country. I will also protect the political prisoners. I will do my best to get them released as quickly as possible. And I will also try to build a community of Russian anti-war emigrants all over the world. I have a goal to visit all the cities that held solidarity actions on my birthday. There were over forty cities that did so. Over forty cities. I'll be having the first such meeting tonight in Berlin. I'm planning to visit all these cities to meet with people and to inspire them. I'll try to find the right words to keep them positive. I would also like to ask them some questions. They've lived abroad for some time and they have more experience than me. I would listen to them and to their advice. I would like to build a relationship with Russian anti-war emigrants. My current work will be based on this community. You said that we are quite close to a civil war. Exactly. Why do you think so? Russian society is extremely divided. We treat each other as enemies. Putin managed to divide us so much that the supporters of Kremlin can no longer communicate with the supporters of opposition. This might end up in a clash. These radical groups might not be as big but they keep growing. Putin is doing this on purpose. He called his youth movement Nashi (Ours). When we have ours, we also have not ours. Putin has been dividing Russians for almost 25 years. He's been quite successful at doing so. If this goes on we might face a civil war. I would like to avoid this. How can we avoid this? By talking to each other. By convincing each other. I spent my time in prison learning to talk to people with opposite views. They put me in a call with members of United Russia, with Russian troops who fought in Ukraine.. They disagree with me and tried to understand their opinion. I had to communicate. We lived in a small cell. You can't leave the cell if you disagree with your cellmate. The door is locked. So I would try to find something that we would agree on. We can disagree on one aspect and almost agree on another. We should establish democratic institutions to prevent the civil war. Discussions should be held at the Parliament, not at the barricades. Do you realize that a lot of people expect you to become a leader of Russian opposition? Is this a burden for you? Or does it excite you? I get it. I feel like this problem is absolutely irrelevant now. Trying to become a leader of Russian opposition would end up in another fight. We don't need a leader today. We will need a leader once there is an opportunity to take part in presidential elections. This opportunity is not present now. Sooner or later this opportunity will arise. When we get to this point this problem will become relevant. Today this is not relevant. I feel like today we're just need to stay sane and not fight our allies. We need to do our job properly - educate people on this war and rescue the political prisoners. This is what I'm planning to do. To be honest, being an opposition leader role is too small for me. I would like to represent my generation. I don't know if I would succeed or not. I wouldn't like to only represent the opposition. I would like to represent the whole generation. I don't know if I can do it or not. How would you define this generation? People of my age..and younger. 35-45 age group? And younger. 30 and maybe younger. I don't want to offend the older generation. I know that some of them share the same values as me. People of my age will have to build our future. I would like to represent these people. I would like to act on behalf of them. I want to be understood by them. Including those who are now fighting in Ukraine? Who might disagree with you currently. I would like them to understand me. I'm willing to address them. This is what I was doing in prison. I talked to people who had fought in Ukraine. I told them that they were involved in a dirty crime. It sounds like you want to become a president. I would like to benefit my country. Where are you planning to stay? I don't know yet. This doesn't have to be Germany, right? I'm going to stay in Germany for some time because they gave me a visa. I can't leave Germany. I might stay in Berlin or move to another city in Europe. You're staying in Europe. Yes. You said that you were sure that you would come back to Russia. I am sure. Why are you so sure? Russia is my home. We don't always get to come back. I can't come back now. In the end I will come back. I can't imagine not coming back to Russia. I'm forced to stay outside of Russia and it hurts me. I don't feel like I'm going to stay here forever. I'm on a business trip for some time. I will definitely come back to Russia at some point. I will do my best to be able to come back to Russia some day. This is my goal. I want my supporters to be able to come back with me. When I was in prison I was fighting against the war in Ukraine. But one of my goals is also to protect my right to live and work as an independent politician in my home country. And the final question..I asked you about it two years ago. It would be interesting to compare your replies. What is power? Two years ago that I said that conviction was power. Did you rewatch the interview? Or do you remember it? I remember it. These two years proved that I was right. My convictions helped me survive my sentence. I got a letter from a Soviet dissident Podrabinek. He had spent five years in prison and he told me that convictions helped him during his sentence, too. Being confident in your beliefs always helps you move forward. Thousands of letters of support helped me survive my sentence. This outpouring support gave me a lot of power. And I would like to add that love is power. The biggest challenge in prison is not becoming embittered. If you manage to stay loving you would become much stronger. I left prison being much more tolerant and composed than I used to be. All because of love.