the m&a landscape has been tough this year hit by Rising interest rates and everpresent fears of a looming recession but there are signs of recovery now we saw two Mega mergers in the energy sector in October remember from Chevron and Exxon and our next guest is seeing some bright spots in 20124 for more we turn to Mark Cooper He's CEO of Solomon Partners mark thank you so much for joining us so you know listen as we highlight there m&a there's some challenges rates geopolitics there are certainly some still worried about the economy how does the m&a environment look to you right now Mark and what do you see as we move here into 2024 uh well thanks for having me it's maybe what I'm hoping for uh and we're certainly hoping for a better Market because as you pointed out in your opening it it hasn't been so great over the past couple of years and this year again down I guess Year date 20% versus last year and last year was down uh from the year before although 2020 is not a good indicative year but if you go back to say the first clean year 2019 we're probably down close enough to 40% yeah there have been some big transactions they've been a bit idiosyncratic uh not necessarily uh in my view the harbringer of uh Contin or or growing activity but have having to do with a lot what's going on what is going on within their Industries having said that though uh I am cautiously optimistic that things will open up next year it sort of feels that way I can see our own volume picking up our own backlog picking up certainly when it comes to the private Equity Community they have to get back in the marketplace and return Capital to their investors if they're going to continue to raise Capital uh and then I think uh with interest rates hopefully capping out uh there'll be a lot more positive sentiment uh from uh from the uh corporate strategic buyers price is still an issue and and and settling on price and what the right price is to clear the market has not been determined in my view but hopefully that will be the case next year um I'm curious Mark it's truly here if if you feel like the deal activity is going to come from an offensive or defensive position the companies that you're talking to how do they feel about sort of the economy more broadly and how that going to drive their deal strategy so I think it's it's offensive and that's what we're seeing and we're seeing people use this as as an opportunity to propel themselves uh forward uh and uh you know the Strategic standpoint again from these are the corporate perspective it is a lot about how they positioned themselves over the next bunch of years uh to uh to gain share to to be more profitable to be uh more competitive uh from a financial point of view it really is more or say from the financial buyer point of view it's more of acquiescing to what is the current reality on pricing when interest rates go up 500 basis points uh multiples have to come down to a degree uh and it's not a question of not having available financing it's a question of it just being more expensive uh and at some point rate uh m multiples have to come down and once that uh equilibrium is reached once that understanding between buyer and seller is is uh is is is evident then I think you'll see uh you'll see more transactions and Mark you mentioned sort of these green shoots we're seeing here some signs of rebound what what sectors Mark are are you seeing there you know energy we discussed but any others is it Healthcare is it financial services and and where would you expect to see activity you know into next year Well if if you don't see it in the biggest segments you won't you won't see major pickup uh in the overall m&a markets and the two biggest segments by far are uh technology and Healthcare and they've been the two biggest segments that have seen drop off over the past number of years uh and so our our expectation is those are the two segments that you will see uh a greater pickup but I think it'll be across the board again I think think uh we have to focus on on what's gone on over the past 18 months with interest rates going up so dramatically so quickly and putting real pressure on on again what's the clearing price of assets uh and now that that's I think pretty clear that it's not going higher and some would say it's going lower but uh I'm not necessarily part of that camp uh then I think it should create that equilibrium uh that would drive uh Drive activity a big piece of this you know the the the corporate Market has been down the m&a market particular the Middle Market m&a Market has been down far more dramatically almost to the tune of uh 35 and 40% and that's a big driver um Mark finally I want to ask you about consumer related companies in particular you your firm has some expertise there within a retail you've done some deals more recently on that front we got Target today which you know investors are plotting the margins at the company what are you hearing from that sector especially as we go into the all important holiday season it's all about consolidation and uh and it's a very difficult retail consumer Marketplace and to win you you need to consolidate we're hearing about a lot of conversations going on we saw early in the year with uh coach and Michael Kors but that's about uh positioning a company to be uh to be a player going forward and realizing on the on the critical mass of a larger business and the savings and synergies that exist and the competitive advantages of larger of larger groups uh and no one needs it more than the retail uh and apparel world and you're going to see more of that Mark Cooper thank thank you so much for joining us today Mark appreciate it my pleasure thank you