hello viewers and welcome to the latest episode of the Huddle it's a CEO special and I'm with Tom Waterhouse Chief investment officer of Waterhouse VC Tom thanks for joining us thanks Tim thanks for having me on yeah it's a pleasure to have you on and in this case uh for a specific reason that we've we we've been doing Co specials as a regular feature for for a few years and in a couple of previous ones you've come up via VIA other stories when we've spoken to Sam swell um the points better gang or not gang but um there there's been a lot when we talk about Australia Tom wouse is a name that comes up a lot so it's it's a pleasure to have you on and I think a great great question for me to start with hopefully a great question and leads to a great answer is um you became a licens bookmaker at at 20 I think a perfect starting off point tell us tell us how that went look um I grew up in a family with a great-grandfather who was a booking in the 1800s and my grandfather was a bookie in the' 60s 7s and 80s my dad was a bookie uh also and and ran a and still runs professional betting Syndicate so I grown up all around the industry my grandfather was Australia's leading group one trainer and my mom is Australia's leading living group one winning trainer so lots of racing and bookmaking our heritage but I didn't like it at all and um I was just at Uni studying Commerce thought I would go into some something to in finance and then my dad said to me look do you want to work one day for me on a Saturday at the races and I worked for him and I just fell in love with it there was so much money uh big beding and my dad said to me he goes look I think you should start out at the dogs he goes because you won't have my form you won't have the benefit of of all the stuff that uh my dad and my grandfather and that they have at the at the horses it'll be a bit tougher and it will be basically a good grounding for you to learn and so I became a a bookie the dogs uh on a Saturday night and a Monday night and then was a book at the provincial races and and horse races and then my grandfather came out of retirement at 80 and we formed a partnership together and that was uh yeah it was it was incredible time to work with both with my dad and also my grandfather was um it was such a great learning experience and and I just loved it I still back look back so fondly at the Times just going to the races my my dad and grandfather and and betting at the races it was a it was a really really fun time yeah um I my next question was going to be what was it like growing up in a in a racing family but it's it's striking to me that you say you didn't like it at first and then but then then you sort of fell in love with it what was it that growing up with it it didn't really appeal to you and then I guess what was it that then that changed so dramatically well my mom is and I think this is why she's been such such a success she's very strict and so she used to from the age of when I was about 12 years of age she would make me work at the Stables uh every Sunday and then at least a week every holidays and getting up at I don't know 2:30 3:00 in the morning and going to the stables and and McKing out boxes and leading two big race horsse around um a ball ring for a couple of hours and then riding trots out on the horses and then coming and marking out the boxes and washing them and I just thought well all my friends are going to the beach and going out at night and I'm going to the Stables I'm like this this isn't any good and um I didn't have this the passion for the horse uh training side of things and I just didn't understand it and then I just I saw the racing uh the betting side of it and just fell in love it just clicked and um you you can't every every kid's different in what they're passionate about and and I just uh I just love the betting side of things and and yeah it's funny I I never wanted my parents to talk about horses I said oh stop talking odds and sods and all this stuff and now my mom says to my when I'm over at their house she says please stop talking to your father about bedding please stop it umle yeah yeah um do do you think maybe that um you you say mom strict and made you work do you think that kind of maybe you didn't you didn't necessarily enjoy that like you say your friend going to the beach but then later on in life do you think maybe that that influence from your from your mother has benefited you in terms of maybe just discipline and work rate that maybe it's instilled in you that maybe you didn't even know that was there but as a result of that that kind of experience yeah I think I think discipline working hard they're key ingredients in anything you do and and uh it's not just my mom my dad my grandfather my aunt my sister they're all hard workers every every one in the family works hard and and you you've got to build that muscle whether it's in sport or or whether it's in academics or in at work you've got to work hard haven't you and and you got to work smart but you got to put in the time and the effort and you've got to learn and part of life is just trying and showing up and and she definitely well she she my mom's for the last 40 years woking up at 2:05 every morning and non-stop work work she's there and same with my dad he's up every morning at 3:00 3:30 in the morning doing the form so they're hard workers but they love it and if you love what you're doing also it's it makes it a lot easier absolutely yeah um let's let's let's go back to of your your your racing Journey but um a key step in your journey that tomw house.com um can you talk us through is that part of your story and maybe anything that I've missed in between if happen to fill in the gaps and happened there so my grandfather was the biggest booking in the world in the 60s he used to take million pound bets when you could buy one of the biggest houses in Sydney for 3,000 so a huge better and he came back and I was timid I I I had in my head that four uh small fish are sweet I was like oh I want to be small bookie and just win all the time he said look you've got a bet you've got to gamble and and and he really were at complete opposites um and he he really said he goes like I've never seen it's embarrassing the way you book make and told me I was an idiot and just would swear at me going home in the races and and look he was right about nearly everything well probably everything and he transformed me into being a big bookmaker and by 2008 I was the biggest bookie you on course bookie in Australia and held more money in 2008 Spring Carnival than all the other bookies on the rails in Melbourne and was holding about $6 million a day and thought this is the life I had my dad's form I had access to bet Fair where The Bookies in New South Wales weren't allowed access to bet fair and I had a lot of big punters to do with the fact that I was betting big but also the name and and we also had a a bank coming over my dad and my family coming from the family I was able to bet big and so it was some really ingredients that made me have an edge and I thought well I want to be doing this forever it's like playing Um poker every day but high stakes poker and it was it was just so fun and um but then the advertising laws changed in Australia and online bookies that were based in the Northern Territory uh could suddenly advertise and the turnover went I held 500,000 cash got out 500,000 cash out of the favorite on Derby Day 2008 and couldn't get 5,000 out of it in the favorite in 2009 Derby being a couple rolls over the other bookies and um and that Stakes Day 2009 was the last day I worked to the races and I thought well I've got to go online uh to try and keep my customers and um we launched tomat house.com in 200920 and it grew dramatically the the name was known and we branded as an individual and we were able to grow our custom base from 100 customers to a quarter of a million in 18 months we found out early that live Sport and advertising on live sport worked but we didn't have the scale to compete with the likes of bet 365 lad brokes uh Patty power uh in their marketing and Tech and so we realized we need to find a partner and so we started the sale process in 2012 William Hill did a $700 sorry $700 million acquisition a roll up of Center bet sporting bet and we were an ad on a small add-on as part of that transaction in 2013 and then in 2014 they asked me to be the CEO of that business in Australia and so that was a big transition obviously going from being a OnCourse bookie to Startup online bookie to running a a 500 person uh multi-brand um part of their part of their business we had our operation was in Australia Tel Aviv and Manila and yeah i' never never had a job before so to' be running that company beo of their Australian business and go and report to their board and and basically see how these big organizations work and and was an amazing experience and and yeah very very grateful for having that period working with William Hill for four years um learned so much and and saw a different side of the advantages and the disadvantage there dis advantages and disadvantages uh these big corporates have yeah um when you when you look back at on bookmaker and CEO of of of the Australian business you know what are the first things that come to your mind in terms of maybe striking differences um obviously the scale and the size is is you know is isn't obvious but in terms of your day-to-day what were the main differences so OnCourse bookmaker or in running towater house.com um um I mean I guess either or really but I I guess the different stages in your in your journey probably the most comparable would be the the startup phase to than the I think the startup phase was a very uh valuable learning experience to run William Hill Australia's business because when you go into one role in a in a corporate you can often get stuck in marketing for 10 years or 15 years or in the finance function for that period of time or trading but in a in a startup we tomw house.com started you mentioned uh Sam swel before there was Sam myself and two other people and and we sap those two other people on on the first week and my my wife who was my girlfriend at the time she left uni and uh and came down and help helped us and we basically had to be jack of all trades you see how all the different bits function and you're going through a really FastTrack learning experience of understanding well what are you going to do for marketing what how does the trading function operate how do you do all of the uh payments and finance function and it's like it's just a a different Beast so when you go to William Hill where there's all these different parts it's hard to find people in the organization that understand all those bits that connect together because they've become a specialist for 10 15 years in one area so coming from a startup background had a lot of advantages now there's a lot of disadvantages in the startup in that you have amazing learnings and and Alpha Global Group being a big corporate like big corporates have some huge advantages with scale and talent that a startup startup doesn't have when it's just beginning but it was a great experience and and um I learned a lot from both and saw that both had a lot of advantages and disadvantages I mean if you could if you could pick one out in terms of which one you prefer do do you have a clear preference well my preference is definitely what I'm doing now in investing in businesses and finding businesses um that I think have got a really good chance of success and and and can navigate their way from startup to uh to working with large corporates I find that the most interesting because I feel like can leverage of of the the skills of of both the both being a startup and being running a large corporate but I think there's different skill sets the skill sets that you need to to run a startup are very different to running an organization with 100 people to an organization with 500 people and I imagine uh it's a completely skill set you need to run an organization with 50,000 to 100,000 people it's it's and being able to when you've got a small group of people that you know well them understanding uh your objectives and your priorities in the business is is very easy because you can know how to communicate with them when you've got a large organization being able to hold large groups accountable and be able to Cascade those objectives and those priorities down to all the different people in the organization so they're all accountable and they know that they are driving towards something and it's the same thing as the other people in the organization takes a lot of work a lot of work and a lot of time and effort and look it's it's a real skill set and I I'm not I I was on a learning process for four years I got a lot wrong um in in in being CEO of William Hill Australia and realize that it's a big it's a big task the bigger you get the the harder that challenge is to keep a an organization really focused and driving in in the same direction and and yeah I take my hat off to people that run these huge organizations successfully it's a it's a big task yeah in 2018 um William Hill Australia acquired by the Stars group and then you buy tomw house.com back um Talk us through that that kind of that part of the journey that that stage uh in the career yeah so look I I wasn't quite sure I had Tom water house. come back but I had a two-year non-compete so I um I wasn't quite sure what to do because um I sort of got used to being incorporate and lifestyle and and being part of a company and I thought well I can't go into bedding and I hadn't done anything else so I've been in beding for 20 years and but I thought the interesting area is that William Hill and all of these corporates they differentiate on marketing and they differentiate on product and there was always huge debate internally about which products got prior prioritized for Tech build and there was a whole bunch of thirdparty suppliers trying to get into the William Hill or other corporates ecosystems whether it was bet with mates functionality or cash out or an affiliate marketing tool or a data provider or an automation tool whatever it was it was first of all hard to get into the product pipeline but secondly hard hard to prioritize to get it built and I thought the investors if you're an investor in William Hill or an investor in Patty power or tabcorp I thought it was somewhat easy to analyze the value of those companies in it they're very similar lines of the p&l you've got turnover gross win cost of sales marketing cost head count costs and so on down the p&l and then that they all make a certain amount then you got to pay your company Tax and so on and whether a company should be eight times earnings 10 times earnings 12 times earnings well you're making a judgment on the management team and you're making a judgment on how good their Tech skills are and how good their marketing and what properties they've got but I thought I didn't really have an edge but I thought understanding the technology supplies and whether they could get integrated or whether they were needed by The Operators was an area that most analysts and people outside the IND industry couldn't understand and it was much narrow who actually could understand whether these businesses were worth a lot or not or not worth much and so I got a handful of the best developers that I've worked with um over my time last 20 years and and said to them look we're going to go and analyze all of the tech around the world and see what we basically try and work out what are the best suppliers and see if there's an opportunity we can find deals at attractive valuations and that was sort of the idea and and we started in August 2019 and and so for the last four and a bit or four and a half years that's what we've been doing and and spend all our time whether it's going to all the different confer game gambling conferences around the world or on uh Zoom calls are going to meet them and and just looking at Tech businesses supplies to the gambling industry and trying to find businesses that have significant upside and and we found some really interesting business and hadn't well so far thankfully a lot of success you need a bit of bit of luck to begin with and we had a bit of luck to begin with and and have carried that on and um once you have a bit of luck at snowballs and um and yeah so basically my My Hope Is that over the next 10 20 years I can just focus on that Tech player um Tech suppliers to the gambling industry and and just invest in some really great great businesses um in terms of the Investments you you've made and and always on the lookout for are there any particular success stories you you can you can discuss and and in terms of potential Investments when you're looking for for you know that that one that really catches your eye um what do you look for yes so we've had um probably three Deals that really stick out as being um big successes with we're in a data uh odds data Supply um which was a listed business that um was great for our investors and and really was our first deal gave us a blueprint of of how to structure deals and what to really look for uh then we were um had a great success with a a platform Builder a business that builds platforms specifically platforms for people wanting to go into the the crypto um betting space and then uh we also invested in a a leading uh tennis Syndicate um young guy that's just one of the most talented people that I I've worked with and or seen work and and he's been able to build a model where he's got just a huge Edge on tennis uh ex Tony Bloom and um learned from learn from the best and and uh uh more best in in in soccer betting or football betting and and he just uh I think he's just got a huge opportunity to grow his his business and and then we' we're in probably a dozen or so really exciting businesses that I think have the huge huge potential to be a success you know it's just the beginnings of us sort of of doing deals with them and and and investing in them but I think they've got a long run way um and I think for us we just look for businesses that uh really fulfilling a need of The Operators you know can they fulfill a need of the operator are they doing something unique uh and do they have the ability to grow like we we look at businesses that are generating Revenue but can they go from being in one operator to 20 operators and that's that's the question we ask and if we think that's possible then it's interesting for us and and naturally uh I imagine your experience you know on the operator side gives you that that extra Insight in terms of what what operators will need from the supplier I think yeah I think it it's not only what they all need but How likely they are to succeed in getting into the product road map you know it's a it's a very political uh like there's a lot of competing priorities that the head of trading has a different need to the head of marketing and the finax director or the head of data and analytics has a different need to both those two people you know it's always it's always difficult and you got competing priorities and competing things that have to get into the system and so understanding that and navigating that but also navigating what is going to have the biggest uplift in in revenue for the operator ultimately leads to revenue for the supplier you know so I actually understanding how that works is really important sure um this next question is a bit of a side note really and I don't know if if you you're in the kind of the same circles as as Matt Davy but he's he's a guest who of the Huddle a few times and I just wondered if your journey was maybe a little comparable to his because he was on the supplier side a leading industry CEO but but now also plays more of a role of of the investor yeah look someone with Matt's experience and and his team you're dealing with the very topnotch people in the industry you know like I I haven't obviously I've known Matt for a long period of time and followed his career closely and we were sort of parallel time of William Hill's involvement with his business but his team of people I've worked closely with um for four years at William Hill and and he's assembled not only himself which he's got amazing talent and skills and and being such a success but the group of people and the talent he surrounded himself with well they're they're topnotch and and I think when you're in the industry for a period of time you want to attract talent I feel that the the team that I work with trying to attract the best people that you've worked with over 20 years in the industry and you have that benefit of seeing a lot of people you know and you know that industry well and and I feel he's done done the same surrounded himself with talent and they've done some really great deals also you know it's um they have I think both both of us have a Unique Edge of understanding multiple parts of the industry and and it's uh you there's not many people with that background and that experience it's been fascinating to to talk about your your career and learn so far um I've got a couple of quick fire questions and then I always like to end by by looking ahead to the Future um what's the best thing about being uh a CEO and obviously at the moment Chief investment officer but throughout your career what's what's the if you could single out the best thing oh it's just business is so fun you know like it's it's just so fun it's the best game in the world isn't it like you you're I'm I'm not really I don't play golf or I don't know go like running or go and play football and stuff it's just it's just it's just great fun it's great to see like businesses growing help them like strategize of how um things are going to play out over time and and work with great people talented people and the thing I like so much about what we're doing now is that when you have your own business or you're running a business you're on a real journey and and there's such Focus but you don't get to see lots of different things where being in the business that we're in now investing in lots of different businesses you see so much different Talent you the calls even the business we don't go into we have missed some really great deals we've had some really great deals but we've missed great deals but you get to speak to amazing talent every day because just because we don't invest in these businesses or like a particular business it's just not the right fit for us you know it's but they're still such talented people that are having a go you know they're really having a go and and if this isn't a success I'm sure the fact they're having a go the next thing they do and so just to be able to access speak to those talented people see what's happening the latest things in the industry you get such a a good feel for things where when I was an operator especially in startup mode I had the blinkers on I was just really I wouldn't even know what was happening in the news because I was just so focused in operationally getting through dayto day and yeah now it's a it's a different sort of like 30,000 feet type view which is a bit different and and enjoyable I'm going to flip it and ask what is the what is the worst thing but if but if worst doesn't quite sound uh that great maybe most challenging might be a little more apt I I think so for us we don't take any management role any board positions any active involvement and we for us there's certain times you're like what the hell is happening here just do this but you that's not our thing they've got to run their own businesses it's but sometimes you feel like you want to take the Reigns and just say look let's move quickly this needs to be done this and you you see some really bad um operators they're visionary but they're bad operators you know and and they or they haven't got to be a good and that that can be frustrating because they have the most amazing idea and you're like you need like you need to F by the way these people are on board and and but everyone has different skill sets and and for us we're passive investors and that they hopefully will work it out and not every business is going to be success you know so that's part of the learnings also yeah I mean I think it's it's it's definitely fair to say there there are some some real Specialists out there in in the day-to-day and they might not necessarily be able to Envision what's happening in five 10 years and then you have some great Executives who are the other way around who who can tell you where they'll shape the industry and and uh but getting from A to B is that they'll need you know hopefully a good team around them to help them um they used to always say William Hill which I never heard the term really oh he's not an operator or he's an operator and it was pretty Broad brushstroke of like like but there's some sense to it you know there's some people that can really drive a team and get people to work for them and and there's other people that are that's not what they like doing yeah yeah absolutely um final note for for me to end on um what does the future hold for for Tom waterhous uh well it's all about Focus for us you know like we're just going to focus on one thing you know for the next 10 20 years just focus on the oper operator side of the gambling industry a a and just become real specialists in that area and um yeah I I feel we know it well the team that I've been working with I've been working with a long time they're technical experts they understand this part of the industry well and and I love the industry you know I feel that so um so lucky and or very fortunate to have grown up in this industry because it's high growth it's interesting it's different most people don't go into it um but it's a well it's been around since the beginning of the beginning of time and and I think people are going to be gambling and betting forever so yeah it's it's it's great to be in an industry that I enjoy but also feel I have a have an edge in well here here and uh Tom thank you very much for for your time for your answers been been fascinating to walk through your your life and career and and best of Lu with with everything as I say uh with all that focus in the next 10 20 years thanks so much Tim thank you thank you