Transcript for:
Lecture on the Zodiac Killer Case

[Music] on the night of July 4th 1969 couples were celebrating inde dependence day across the country the same was true in Blue Rock Springs in valo California where love birds drove to secluded spots to watch the fireworks crackle over the night sky in relative peace while they shared a moment together one such moment was being shared by Michael meu and Darlene faren who were parked in their car in an isolated and empty spot at the park some teenages having just left as they had found their spot they sat in the leather seats and began to talk to one another their convers station broken by a car entering the park along the road behind them the two watched as it rolled forward until it stopped behind their car they looked back Michael with confusion and Darlene with fear the headlights were bright and the engine was rumbling idly the darkness made it impossible to see inside it lingered for an eternity until the engine kicked in and the car spotted forward relief came immediately as they watched the car leave the park through the winding road it was probably just someone who was lost their rationalized between themselves it was only moments later that the car returned and the fear crept back in louder now the person wasn't lost the car rumbled behind them once more as a door opened and footsteps pushed forward to their own car a bright light pierced their Windows blinding them both before glass shattered alongside the sound of deafening gunshots the figure a silhouette beyond the flashlight fired into the car indiscriminantly as quickly as it started it was over and the figure walked to his car and drove drove calmly away from the scene the figure would go on to be known by the public as the Zodiac Killer a figure so enigmatic He Still Remains a mystery to this day 50 years later but this is just one of many stories from the Zodiac case that we aim to explore in this week's episode of The Red Thread the show where we cover cold cases Cryptids conspiracies and Cults I do like alliteration I'm Jackson and I'm joined by Isaiah and Charlie and this is what we do this this is what we do this episode is brought to you by our lovely sponsors at meundies Adam and Eve and ag1 you'll hear more about them later on in the show and another very quick note before we uh before we start boys I just want to shout out that we have show notes in the in the description I shouted this out last week but I want to shout it out again you can head below and see everything we talk about in written detail with pictures and other notes and and additional details and stuff like that stuff that we might miss during the actual recording and the link is in the description so go check it out and also thanks to everyone for watching and listening to the show over on Spotify um we'd really appreciate it if you click follow so you get the latest episodes delivered directly to you and feel free to leave a rating as well cuz that really helps us out as well all right that's enough notes before the show uh how are you guys going going great Jackson thanks for having me hey it's your show as well I'm not I'm not having you I'm not having you you're part of the show I don't know why you saying you know what Jackson thank you for inviting me on uh as a guest for this episode it really does mean a lot so uh in your world yeah it's Jackson's podcast we're just living in it it wouldn't be the same without you guys I'd just be here talking about fanfiction to myself about Cal killers and stuff like that which would be an entirely different mood people would watch it probably you know I'm sure they'll they'll tune in your therapist would at least this time around your intro wasn't really fanfic it was just describing one of the one of the murders yeah after last week with the whole Jeffrey Epstein I'm a little disappointed it wasn't in the first person just to be honest like I kind of wanted you to be like you you you're on the ground you look down in a puddle you're the Zodiac [Laughter] Killer that's how you've evaded a rest these last 50 years yep it's it's you you're the Zodiac Killer yeah I I I don't know I really didn't want to do that again honestly I didn't want to get too too much into it like that uh but yeah more just a description of one of the actual events because I don't know I I I find it interesting anyway it it is it is admittedly in better taste to not put you in the shoes of like murdered teenagers so that's fair yeah but then we lose the personality of it it's a it's a balancing act that's true all right from the top you're sitting in a car suddenly you hear someone tap outside you you have to understand Jackson you can get more creative instead of putting you in the perspective of the killer or the victims you could have done like a bystander like a a bird or something in a tree that witness like you don't know what you're seeing but you know it's not good you are the local Woodpecker on his way home to sit on some eggs you just had a delicious breakfast of worms you look over a gunshot you can't understand it because you are simply a bird you know you must flee that's you look over to see a human holding a really loud bird nothing makes sense yeah I don't know I'll get more creative with it next week no no it it it was perfect you're beautiful continue I appreciate it um so the Zodiac I'm sure you guys are both very aware of the Zodiac Killer I don't think there's a single person out there that isn't at least somewhat aware of the Zodiac Killer it's a it's a very popular name um how how much detail do you guys know I definitely knew a lot more when I was in college cuz I watched a bunch of documentaries and movies movies on it and looked into it but it's been a while so I'm a little foggy on a lot of the specifics do you remember do you remember anything specific uh like in terms of who I thought it was that or just like really specific uh elements of the case that jumped out at you that like you were interested in oh well yeah of course obviously the one the biggest one being like all the notes that got sent but like in terms of who I thought it was at the time I believe the one I was leaning mostly towards was Kane oh okay interesting okay yeah there's there's a lot of suspects that we'll get into down the line there is a lot of suspects and a lot of different points to one or the other so I'm interested in seeing where we differ on that um Isaiah what do you what do you what do you think I think that the Zodiac Killer one of the serial killers that I'm most familiar with uh like I don't know if I could list off every name and date of the victims but I know all the broad Strokes of the killings I know the number of victims I know like what was included in the letters he sent I always thought that the killer was Lee Allen uh but it's been a while since I've looked at it like I know last year information came out that made a bunch of people say it was Gary post uh that I haven't looked at that much so I I could be swayed but I was kind of in the Le Allen camp for a long time I remember uh but yeah I think I'm pretty familiar with the case yeah before we get into it can we shout out the hit 2007 movie starring Jake Gilling Hall and I think Robert Downey Jr mhm uh it's just called zodiac by David vure I think that was that was what started my interest in zodiac it's pretty it takes some liberations like it's definitely like dram a dramatization and and plays a bit loose and fast with the facts or the case but it's still pretty accurate to what I I read over the last research period for creating this document it fantastic film yeah the like if we're arguing it as like sort of a docu series or whatever it went a bit hard in the Lee Allen camp like a lot of the scenes between the journalist and Lee Allen were fabricated but as far as a film great work one of one of uh I mean Fincher pretty much exclusively puts out bangers but it's a great film overall it's one of his good works yeah fantastic movie I I love rewatching it it's a great watch definitely recommend it to anyone out there who hasn't watched it if you haven't watched it highly recommend go watch it all right so I figure the best way of tackling the zodiac killer because there's just so many different details it's just to do a like a a timeline basically what we did for Jeffrey Epstein where we just go over the um the murders as they happened there's five specific cases or five specific murders that uh like 100% confirmed to be the Zodiac which we're going to be focusing on in this episode otherwise it would probably run for about 10 hours so we we needed to like cut down on a bit of the fat and make sure that we just stuck to what was the the most conclusive information available to us and then we'll also go over the uh the clues and the the letters that he would send in as well because those are very important to the Zodiac case itself and it's basically what gives it its entire unique uh perspective or spin on the whole on the whole crime thing like he would send letters in to uh to journalists and stuff like that and that's why he was so well known so the first such case or first murder was in December 20th 1968 and it was the murder of Betty Lou Johnson and David Faraday uh they were 17 and 16 and they chose the secluded Lake Herman Road in benia California which is north of San Francisco and south of valo and they would go out uh it was about 10:15 they would go out in their cars to what was basically like a Lover's Lane uh and hang out there and around 11:00 p.m. local resident Stella boures left her house to pick up her son from a show and she was driving with her mother-in-law and daughter and she passed Lake Herman Road a few minutes later spotting Faraday's car and the front right door was open and two figures laid on the ground covered in blood she made the choice not to stop and offer help or anything like that and instead drove to the nearest Bia police station which like I kind of get given that she had her own her own child in the uh in the car I guess that would be and was basically a woman on her own with her mother-in-law so if she sees like a a scene you know a crime scene I get why she would just drive straight to the Bia police station and not stop to help or anything like that uh but it is rather unfortunate because um they were still the the two victims in this case were still alive at the time which if they had have received help quicker then perhaps they both would have survived one of those I was just going to say that's one of those things where like like I don't what kind of help would she have offered for gunshot wounds like I guess the best she could really do would be like CPR if they start to Flatline but it's really understandable why she wouldn't stop cuz the killer could still be there like you know they're and then she's not safe her daughter's not safe like it's all just I think she made the smartest choice in the situation it's just really it's the it's the choice I would have made myself if I was in that situation yeah you're also a [ __ ] coward though so like what would you have done what would you have done I would have absolutely stopped I would have stopped I would have gave them a sinsu bean like it would have been smooth if I was on the cas pop culture reference let's go there it is you would have hunted down the Zodiac Killer yourself and and challenged to be like BR put down the gun it's time for some pugilistic combat which way which which way did he go point point him out to Charlie gets out of the car there's like a girl bleeding on the floor where is he speaking there's no time drops her runs into rushes off to the case yeah he's never seen again either you would an act to help them out you'd be you'd be off to the hunt yourself also also like in 1968 it wasn't as common knowledge as it is now unless she was like a nurse or something about like oh well if someone has a bleeding wound put PL you know apply pressure stuff like that all that would have done in' 68 is keep her from getting help because it's not like she could have called the police from there so yeah I think she did the right thing driving away and once again as mentioned the killer could still be there absolutely like I I I'm not saying all of this to blame her or anything I'm just saying it is unfortunate because they were still alive I can't believe you blame this woman for the death of these two coward no for example like if she had I don't know dragged the bodies over and put them in her car and like drag drove them to the benia police station with her then like 25 minutes would have been saved that's what I would have done I would have stolen the bodies yeah yeah I would have been [Laughter] like I I'm just saying it's just unfortunate that help didn't arrive sooner I guess because there was he didn't stick around to finish the job basically so it's entirely possible that they could have survived if help got to them quicker so upon reaching the scene the police observed an absence of signs indicating any kind of struggle or robbery no discernable motive was identified in the following investigation and all car doors except the open right front door was securely locked showc casings were discovered on the floorboard and a bullet had pierced through the back window leaving a hole in the car roof and the police concluded that the as salant had utilized a 22 caliber semi-automatic pistol loaded with Winchester Western Super X that's important super ax copper coated long rifle ammunition and pulled up alongside the park car and shot into it repeatedly so it was basically just he he rocked up to the side of the car and just shot indiscriminately into the car um spamming spamming shots into there hitting them repeatedly and B Betty Lou was located a few meters away from the vehicle suggesting that she did not die immediately and attempted to the best of her ability anyway to flee so she was located away from the car um so maybe he wasn't the best shot uh and he had to kind of finish her off after she had left the car well it's also 22 so it's going to take a ton of effort to kill someone with it anyway good yeah good I don't know anything about Firearms SO2 is like a squirrel caliber like you use it for hunting squirrel it's it's like the size of a an air an air rifle like a pellet gun uh right it's very small bullet doesn't do a lot of damage you have to I mean they're used to murders a lot cuz they're cheap and like easy or whatever but uh you've got to typically unload into someone to kill them with it gotcha so is that probably yeah is that probably why they survive for so long because you definitely why if he had like a 9 mm or something and he shot them like five times they're dead uh but with the 22 it's very reasonable they could have lived for hours afterwards yeah okay so does this speak to some level of um unawareness on his part like if he was intending to kill them would he have chosen a better weapon at the time I I've always had the theory that the Zodiac Killer was very like full of himself obviously because of the letters and like I think he liked thinking yeah very egotistical I think he liked thinking about killing people more than actually killing them because he was really bad at it uh yeah most of the murders he only got away with or like the suspect died because of how incompetent the police were or because it was the 1960s uh he cuz his his final kill count was five people and he attempted to murder seven or eight I believe confirmed so that's like that's just over a 50% success rate um yeah that that we know of to be fair he he does claim himself that he's got a higher kill he claim to be 37 but but I I also don't know about that cuz he loved gloating about the ones we know he did so much yeah I feel like he would have attached proof yeah we'll get into that later on but yeah so uh she suffered five bullet wounds on the right side of her back the shots had traversed her heart lungs liver and right kidney uh resulting in an instant death in that situation so she had fled the car and she had been shot in those vital organs and died uh pretty much immediately for her uh whereas David was discovered beside the car and was barely alive but actually alive upon police arrival uh he was shot near his left ear with the bullet entering his brain which wow the bullet entered his brain and he was still alive that's how small 2 two is there's actually that happens more often than you think there's a pretty famous case of that you can actually watch it on YouTube there is a guy who dur I think it was during a burglary got shot in the head and I if I remember correctly he didn't know he got shot in the head so he ended up going to the like the police came and they started interviewing him and they realized that he was a little out of it and then the police investigator during the investigation looks and he said like did you hit your head and he's like no not that I know of and then he realized that he got shot in the head and he just had a bullet lodged in his brain the entire time and he was totally Lucid having a conversation just seemed a little off like when you it's not instant death or anything you get shot in the head like all the time I got to well yeah I got to imagine where in the like brain like there might be less sensitive areas of the brain I think if you hit the brain stem or whatever I think that's like an immediate death from what I understand yeah there's also another one where like a wife shot her husband while he was sleeping in the head and then he just woke up with a headache and never realized he got shot until he like went to the doctor for something totally unrelated they're like there's a [ __ ] bullet here like it happens from time to time Jesus Jesus Christ imagine like imagine being told by the doctor you were almost assassinated yeah that one was a wacky case be questioning my whole life at that point that'd be insane yeah there's a lot of factors like what part of the brain what caliber used you know how much energy it carries cuz there's also stories like there was one guy who he he shot I don't know if we could say that he tried to what was it from the Epstein one hang up unive he tried to hang up with a pistol and uh he put it in his mouth fired and then it like obviously did a lot of damage but he lived police show up and anyway he ends up Surviving this scenario and it turns out doing that cured his schizophrenia uh oh I remember that one yeah so like there the brain's really weird wacky stuff can happen yeah brains are [ __ ] crazy crazy [ __ ] so that was at the end of 196 68 I believe yeah December 20th 1968 and it would take another 6 months uh until he struck again with the attack on Darlene Fen and Mike magu I I don't know how to pronounce it Ma Ma me yeah you can continue calling him magu if you want I don't know it feels a bit offensive now Mr Meo uh yeah I definitely don't think it's meoo I'll be honest with you I think you're just a big Lesly fan and just got Mr in your head from it yeah probably uh I'll take I'll take this one if you'd like yeah yeah go so around midnight on Independence Day of 1969 22-year-old Darlene faren and 19-year-old Mike Mao I almost said meu Mao were on route to Mr Ed's Diner after Darlene picked up Mike from his house before heading to the diner Darlene asked to have a private chat with Mike turning around on Springs Road and heading to Blue Rock Springs Park in Venicia a popular local spot for teenagers at the time similar to the lovers lane where the previous two murdered victims were found when they arrived at the spot they put the car in park and settled in for their conversation there were other teenagers at the park at this time setting off firecrackers in the park they turned off the car light but left the radio playing the other teens left about 5 minutes before the attack occurred Alone Again a car entered the parking lot pulling alongside Darlene's car a brown corv or a Ford Mustang Mike asked Darlene if she knew the driver and her response was to the effect of oh never mind Mike was UN not a great response by the way if I ask someone like hey do you know that guy and they go oh never mind I'd be like what the [ __ ] just okay well I've immediately weirded it out yeah yeah hey do you know this random guy who followed us to this like make out location at night oh don't worry about him no Mike was unsure if she knew or didn't know the driver but didn't press further the car quickly left heading south along Columbus Parkway towards Vallejo and Springs Road approximately 5 minutes later it returned and parked at the rear of Darlene's car a man emerged from the vehicle carrying with him a high-powered flashlight along with a 9mm semi-automatic handgun believing the stranger was a policeman Mike began searching for his ID suddenly The Stranger raised his gun and fired five shots through the car window targeting Mike first some bullets tore through Mike's body and hit Darlene as well Mike recalled hearing a muffling sound suggesting the possibility of a silencer on the gun however local resident George Bryant about 800 ft away heard the gunshots it is possible that due to the low proximity of the or to the close proximity of the gunshot Mike suffered temporary hearing loss and therefore thought the gun had a silencer however it is also possible that George Bryant had heard fireworks or firecrackers given the holiday wait so Isaiah like have you ever had a gun shot go off like by your ears like unprotected yeah yeah so what happens is uh you don't hear The Gunshot that much all of a sudden your ears are ringing and everything's quieter uh like obviously you hear The Gunshot you hear the pop but that muffling he's talking about was likely because he had never been around a gun getting fired near his face so yeah you you immediately lose hearing you know a pop happened but mostly everything's dampened for a while after that right so I don't I don't think the Zodiac Killer ever you used a silencer in any other cases so I'm leaning towards the likelihood that it is that that that he just wasn't used to uh gunshots going off near his ears and that's to be fair it's a new it was a new experience for him as it would have been a lot of people now one thing I will add is silencers aren't like movie quiet um the only time you get close to that when you're using subsonic ammo if you use regular caliber or regular velocity ammunition like 9mm ammunition through a suppressor it will dampen the range that the shot is heard but the bullet will still hit supersonic speeds and make the loud crack so it will still sound like a gunshot up close the silencer just tapers how far out or the visible flash of the gun going off so right so it could it's it's also true that he could have a suppressor but it still sounds like a really loud gunshot close to it so but but I am I am with you would you still get so you would still get the effects of the hearing loss if a like a weapon with a silencer on went off near you you you definitely would like for some calibers like for example AR-15s that shoot 5.56 uh the bullets going so fast that even with the suppressor on you're not supposed to shoot it without hearing protection still okay even with the silencer now 9 mm is not that fast or it's not that P like that it doesn't have that much powder as a 5.56 so it's not to the same intensity but I imagine if the muzzle is in your face when it's fired you're still going to get a hearing de deafening now I still I'm still with you and that I think a silencer wasn't used in any of the other crimes he probably was just getting the muffling from the gun but it is worth noting that it's both could be true basically yeah it's possible that was a nerd rant I apologize I'm continuing that's information necessary information uh with the sudden Adrenaline Rush Mike pushed himself into the back seat of the car away from the immediate danger in the process a bullet entered his knee Darlene was then shot on each arm and her back as she attempted to turn turn away the attacker began walking back to his car but returned upon hearing Mike's moans of pain shooting two additional bullets at each victim totally nine shots fired he then left the park towards fleo both Mike and George Bryant heard the killer drive away at high speed but when the attacker later made a call he claimed to have stayed under the speed limit after I like how that's on the record like he like don't worry I didn't break the speed limit that's where Hew line I may have attempted murder back there but you bet your sweet bippy I was obeying the road rules you're not allowed to find me he's he's on the phone with the police and it's like I killed two people did you speed away no why would I do that stop it um after receiving reports of gunfire officers Richard Hoffman and Ed rust were the first to arrive on the scene that night Hoffman quickly attended to Mike who was on his back on the ground next to the car while Darlene remained motionless behind the steering wheel attempts to get information from Darlene were met with only mumbled responses rushed to Kaiser Hospital Darlene tragically passed away due to her injuries and was pronounced dead at 12:38 a.m. miraculously however Mike survived the attack and provided a description of the asent to Ed rust he depicted the man as heavy set around 5' 8 in tall weighing at least 195 to 200 lb but not quote blubbery fat with a large face and short curly light light brown blonde hair approximately 40 minutes later a call was made from a pay phone at the gas station of spring roads and Toom sure to the operator and Theo Police Headquarters I'm so happy I didn't have to pronounce that one thank you you know [ __ ] butchered that I'm I'm sure I did but I'll take one for the team you typed it so it's the least I could do um the caller possessing a mature male voice spoke evenly and consistently despite the operator's attempts to inquire about the caller's identity and location he spoke as if reading from a script the quote went as follows I want to report a double murder if you go one mile East of Columbus Parkway to the public park you will find the kids in a brown car they were shot with a 9mm Luger I also killed those kids last year goodbye end quote that there's something about like the the Casual delivery of that I also killed those kids last year like man it's it's this I think this was clearly a man that wanted to or a person that wanted to be like um he he wanted the reputation um again Mike survived and these to 9mm rounds does that change anything uh it makes it uh much more likely that he would have died 9mm is a much much larger bullet compared to 22 and he got shot like multiple times yeah it's it is wild that he lived 9 mm is like the quote unquote standard handgun size uh police a lot of police in the US use 40 caliber but 9mm is a very popular uh handgun round for police like in the military that's what their sidearms are so yeah it's it's really really absurd that he lived being shot that many times incredibly lucky I mean he went back the Zodiac Killer went back and double tapped basically after hearing him cry so he got lucky twice really when you think about it cuz that second time he came back he like I'm assuming he went there to really finish the job and make sure that he placed the bullet correctly or whatever and still he survived it's crazy it is is insane that he lived I also will mention this is the last point of gun nerdism I'll bring up for this that because he said the phrase 9mm Luger most depictions of him have him with a literal World War II Luger um I'm pretty sure he was just specifying the caliber 9mm Luger 9mm Luger is the full name for 9x19 Parabellum which is like the common 9mm round um but because he said the word Luger a bunch of people think he uses like World War II Weaponry um ju which I don't think is true just a is it is it impossible that he would use I mean he could he could have been using a World War II pistol uh just for aesthetic points I guess but there's much more there's more reliable more easily accessible less expensive Firearms out there in 9 mm but but every every drawing every like artwork you see of the Zodiac Killer he looks like an SS officer because they're like oh Luger here you go yeah full Nazi regalia yeah yeah pretty much yeah some some some weird kids OC yeah oh man oh man that's scary uh before we continue let's take a quick brief break to thank the sponsors of this episode of The Red Thread it's Valentine's Day coming up and one of the best ways to enter the bedroom in my opinion is with me unies covering your junk Nothing fits nicer in my opinion and it really does grab you in all the right places so you can strut into that bedroom 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of Darlene faren around the 4th of July that same year the validity of these letters is undeniable due to it containing unsettling and specific details about the murders that were only known to the police the letter also the letter also had the zodiac symbol displayed at the bottom which was a circle with a cross through it that would divide the circle into four quadrants it is thought that the Zodiac's symbol represents a gun sight though it's impossible to know for certain so this is from the letter dear editor this is the murderer of the two teenagers last Christmas at Lake Herman and the girl last 4th of July to prove I killed them I shall State some facts which only I plus the police know Christmas one brand of ammo Super X two 10 shots were fired three the boy was on his back with his feet to the car four the girl was on her right side feet to the West 4th of July five girl was wearing pattern pants six the boy was also shot in the knee and seven brand name of ammo was Western here is a cipher or that is here is a cipher or that is part of one the other two parts of the cipher are being mailed to the editors of the Vallejo times plus San Francisco Examiner I want you to print this Cipher on the front page of Fry on the front page by fry afternoon August 1st 69 if you not if you do not print this Cipher I will go on a kill Rampage fry night that will last the whole weekend I will cruise around and pick off all stray people or couples that are alone then move on to kill some more until I have killed over a dozen people so he's making these big threats about if you don't publish this you're going to be responsible for the rampage that ensues to try and pressure them to get his his Cipher out there and the attention on him obviously he again wanted that reputation and it's undeniable because he he offered all of this like information that only the police would know like it it it's obviously undeniable also another thing to note is you read that verbatim um but I want to really I really want to point out just the raw amount of spelling mistakes in in the letters themselves like he spells Christmas with two s's there's just a lot of like just random errors throughout it like spelled Cipher with like c y i p h e r just uh and this is this is constant throughout all of these you think there might have been a reason for that that's what I think see the mistakes I I don't think he's like an uneducated person but from from everything that some of them AR like mistakes that could be unintentional like for example he spells Friday like the abbreviation step R says r y there's got to be some reason for that cuz the the guy knows you know the three letters that abbreviate Friday so maybe I I've heard some theories that maybe he misspelled stuff to make the cipher more difficult in sections uh to prevent double letters or from easily recognizable shortl combinations from popping up so maybe that was part of it it's also possible that he was trying to um mislead the investigators into thinking he wasn't uneducated person or something like that or yeah it's just some way of like throwing off throwing them off their game like it definitely I don't know it definitely seems intentional to me but well it 100% is these aren't these really aren't mistakes you could accidentally make so I I believe there's definitely a reason behind it just don't really I I don't I don't know how many illiterate people there were in the 60s and how common it was and like I don't even really know what illiteracy looks like in adults so well it doesn't look like this if you're illiterate you're not you're not writing a note that looks like this it wouldn't get this far and plus there's no way you're making ciphers ing them to the new like people take the Zodiac Killer a bit far as being like an Einstein level genius I think that's too much but he was definitely like above average intelligence yeah he he was a smart enough guy I also don't agree with him being like some kind of Super Genius guy I I feel like when it comes to making a cipher you can really make [ __ ] that's almost impossible to crack if you just get ridiculously abstract with it and I don't think it takes like a super genius to do thata but it does take someone that it does take someone that's at least somewhat educated well you can definitely make a cipher that's completely uncrackable you can absolutely just do that but I think he wanted the possibility of them solving it as well yeah yeah cuz I could sit here I could sit here and make up a language and then speak in it and be like haha you'll never crack it cuz duh cuz I'm I'm the only one who made up how the the language works so it's but it does take some level of sure it was the 1960s but for the level of police evasion he did for making decipherable ciphers I'll say is more complicated than impossible ones so that yeah there was some level of Intelligence on display he wasn't just some dumb average killer I agree so each of the letters contained one portion of a cipher known as the z408 cipher named after the number of characters it contains the Zodiac demanded that each newspaper publishes Cipher on the front page all three newspaper published the respective parts of the cipher the first of the zodiac ciphers was solved by North selenis School teachers Donald Harden and his wife Betty the cipher itself was a simple substitution Cipher in a substitution Cipher each letter of the plain text original message is replaced by a different letter of the alphabet the replacement is consistent throughout the cipher meaning that the same plain text letter is always replaced by the same Cipher text letter some elements made the z408 cipher for more unique however like the fact that the Zodiac Killer created created a unique set of symbols drawn from distorted alphabetic letters numbers mathematical symbols and seemingly arbitrary shapes and signs and symbols that seem to have been inspired by ancient scripts or even astrological symbols and their solution was sent to the San Francisco Chronicle and the deciphered message revealed the words I like killing people because it is so much fun it is more fun than killing Wild game in the forest because man is the most dangerous it's misspelled animal of all to kill something gives me the most thrilling experience it is even better than getting your rocks off with a girl the best part of it is that when I die I will be reborn in Paradise again misspelled and all that and all that I have killed and all the I have killed become my slaves I will not give you my name because you will try to sloy down or stop my collecting of slaves for my afterlife yeah I mean there yeah like like you said there's spelling mistakes constantly throughout he spells parad and and the spelling mistakes are consistent across letters as well like for example in this one paradise he spells it constantly Paradise like i i e on the end yeah that's constant and as well as Christmas with two s's Friday is in f y stuff like that there's these consistent spelling mistakes which are just so odd to me you'd think you would get Friday right at least once you know so I I don't know I think it is deliberate was hold on let me get a bit conspiratorial here for a second wasn't the original spelling of Friday I'm talking like back when the the word was first invented wasn't the original spelling like f r y d a y you're asking the wrong people I you have to speak to like so there was this thing kazinski would do where and I know people will say that kazinski and uh the the Zodiac Killer are the same person I'm not saying that but another killer who liked to taunt investigators there's this thing kazinski would do where if he knew a word was spelled like quote unquote a correct way in the 1400s or whatever and we've changed the spelling of it he would intentionally say the say or spell the thing in the old way it was done because like the way he views it we've dumbed down language so he's correcting it by doing everything the correct way it's almost like an attack on the establishment or what Hees It's Kind it's being a smart alic right like oh I know how this word spelled even though you all spell it the simpleton way right so the only issue with this is that I don't think the word slow has ever been SLO history that puts a bit of a damper in where I was going with that uh I don't think there were like medieval peasants walking around like shouting out slowy down to like scy rampant or anything like that you know what Fair Point fair point so yeah continue I'm going to I'm going to press doubt on that one but I still I still think like the I still think that the um the the misspellings are deliberate I I don't know it just really feels deliberate to me like there's some kind of definitely is hidden message in it itself almost I don't think I don't necessarily think there's a hidden message in it I think it's all just to portray this character cuz I also don't believe that he thinks that by killing people he's Gathering slaves for the afterlife to me it seems like he was going from more of a Showmanship angle because he's egotistical about all of this I never really believed that that was something that he or that was his motive behind it that he's killing them to gather slaves for his afterlife when he dies to me that just seems like something that he would have drummed up in his head as like a real villain like a super villain out of like a comic book or something or trying to create an idea yeah because like that's kind of the question about the ciphers itself because this this was the deciphered part right the whole thing about I need to kill people to have slaves for the afterlife so and also that mention you had about like the symbols were made up of like astrological symbols ancient symbols stuff like that so may the one theory is that he was some kind of a culus practitioner who was putting practice to it so to him these symbols maybe they really meant something maybe they actually led into his true belief um and maybe he is thinking about souls for the afterlife the other idea is as you just said Charlie he's doing it to put on a show and if that's the case then maybe the ciphers don't matter that much because most of them do stuff like this of kind of showing off being a showman so it's in that way it's almost like the ciphers themselves are a taunt to the police like he he does his whole message to get attention then he's like haha wouldn't it be funny if I leave some code saying that I think I'm the devil or whatever yeah to me to me it definitely feels more like just raw seral killer trolling as opposed to an ideological message to me that's just how I feel but I'm not I don't know for sure at the end of the decoded message there was also 18 letters remaining that did not form a coherent message and the letters were e b e o r i e t e m e t h h P ti so eorth before the meth piit got it yeah pretty much saying that out loud sounds like I'm casting like an incant or something meet me still unknown what that's what he said it's actually his name it would have been the easiest solve ever they just go to the [ __ ] phone book and they they find his name in there like that or to Method oh my God he was just up the road only one man in existence with that name of course it's the it's the retired cop officer meth pit we missed him it's still unknown what these remaining letters mean and there's much speculation about them though nothing has been satisfactorily explained or decoded from them it's likely that they might be meaningless and intended to confuse or mislead investigators in response to the ciphered message Vallejo police chief Jack e stilts expressed doubt indicating that the police were not fully convinced that the letter had indeed been written by the murderer and to further to further establish the identity Chief stilts requested a second letter containing additional factual details and that's when the response letter comes in if you want to take it Jackson yeah I just briefly on that I feel like I feel like there was enough information the first one to prove that like he was the actual Zodiac Killer I feel like what police chief Jack Jackie stilts was doing there was kind of goting him into giving them more information yeah I I I just I don't see any any reality where that wasn't enough information to convince the police that they're dealing with the actual killer here there was just so much information there um but yeah August 4th 1969 that is roughly um a week later no just a couple days later three days in 1969 the response letter is uh received by the San Francisco Examiner in response to stilts request it reads as follows dear editor this is the Zodiac speaking in answer to your asking for more details about the good times I have had in Vallejo I shall be very happy to supply even more material by the way are the police having a good time with the code if not tell them to cheer up when they do crack it they will have me okay all right all right hold on hold on that immediately gives away that he's he's just trolling them with the whole like I am the soul killer cuz they cracked it and the answer was uh I'm I'm trying to kill people to get souls and in his letter he's like don't worry I'm sure when you crack it you'll figure out who I am yeah that gives it away he's clearly trolling yeah or he's EB meth pit you're right we can't throw out the other possibility Why did no one see that on the fourth on the fourth of July I did oh this is him by the way not Jackson speaking I'm going back to letter on the 4th of July I did not open the car door the window was rolled down already the boy was origonally sitting in the front seat when I began firing when I fired the first shot at his head he leaped backwards at the same time thus spoiling my aim he ended up on the back seat then the floor in back thrashing out very violently with his legs that's how I shot him in the knee I did not leave the scene see he spel scene C NE e like come on scene of the killing with squealing tires and Racing Engine as described in the Vallejo paper I drove away quite slowly so as not to draw attention to my car the man who told the police that my car was brown was a negro about 40 to 45 rather shab dressed I was at this phone booth having some fun with the Vallejo cops when he was walking by when I hung the phone up the damn thing began to ring and that threw his attention to my car to me in my car last Christmas two Wes on Christmas last Christmas in that episode the police were wondering as to how I could shoot and hit my victims in the dark they did not openly State this but implied this by saying it was a well lit night and I could see the silhouett on the horizon all right that one wasn't even close silhouette are you serious now I'm just mad to be fair if there was anywh that I would like think that someone may get wrong it would be Silhouettes yeah that's continue sorry I'm just getting mad at him now the killing kids I can let let by right but Silo wets is unforgivable yeah it's it's it is kind of frustrating cuz it kind of feels like someone pretending to have like dyslexia or something yeah or like a learning disability maybe he couldn't spell I mean maybe I was thinking earlier maybe he does have dyslexia well even if you have dyslexia I don't think it would present itself like this and this commonly for each word what D dyslexia can end up doing is you you do still have spelling difficulties later on because you just have a fundamental issue with like understanding the language itself I I've definitely seen dyslexic people that have a lot of difficulty spelling words uh [ __ ] this is him again [ __ ] that area is surrounded by high hills and trees what I did was tape a small pencil flashlight to the barrel of my gun if you notice in the center of the beam of light if you aim it at a wall or ceiling you will see a black or dark he spelled dark d a r c k dark spot in the in the center of the circle of light about 3 to 6 in across when taped to a gun barrel the bullet will strike exactly in the center of the black dot in the light all I had to do was spray them as if it was a water hose there was no need to use the gun s sits I was not happy to see that I did not get front page coverage so there we go that they didn't put him on the front page I think for that murder anyway so he he he's a he's an attention [ __ ] basically he wants as much attention as he can get so for I'm I'm still mad about everything that was spelled that way but I that does raise because at first I was trying to find a reason to the misspelling but now yeah maybe he didn't isn't there a kind of I'm forgetting the name for it but isn't there a kind of head trauma that leads to spelling spelling difficulties um there is yeah probably a lot of different ones yeah but but not necessarily a decrease in intelligence or something like that um there's a oh yeah I've I've heard of a few mental conditions where like uh you Ain intelligence but you you lose a lot of functionality in speech obviously and things like uh writing and stuff like that yeah maybe maybe that leads to something anyway uh I could take this next section if you want about the next killing yep all right so this is on the 27th of September so this is just a month later right off of that string of letters with the police uh so just over a month later uh the stabbings of Brian hartell and Cecilia Shepard a month later a couple by the names of Cecilia Shepard 22 and Brian harnell 20 were unwinding on a blanket near the shoreline at Lake beresa near Napa California in the secluded surroundings the two were reminiscing about their college days during their conversation Cecilia heard a russle and noticed a man seemingly watching them from the bushes Cecilia told Brian about the stranger she saw who nonchalantly suggested that the man might be searching for a restroom The Stranger would later be described as heavy set darkhaired and standing between 5'8 to 6t tall he wore glasses a dark jacket and disheveled clothing he allegedly disappeared behind a tree briefly and then emerged once more dawned in dark pants and a windbreaker a black executioner style Hood concealing his shoulders and torso hid his identity to ensure his eyes remained unseen he also wore clipon sunglasses on the chest of his hood there was a white circle with a cross symbol prominently displayed the same symbol recurring in his ciphers completing his Ensemble a sizable sheath knife hung from the right side of his belt approaching Cecilia and Brian the man shared that he had escaped from a Montana or Colorado prison accounts vary and urgently needed money and a car to escape to Mexico responding to his plea Brian handed over the keys to his Volkswagen and whatever spare change he had mostly coins concerned for their safety Brian offered assistance to prevent any potential harm to which the man replied no time is running short Brian later noted that the man's voice was unremarkable lacking any discernable accent but carrying a slight draw the situation took a turn when the man ordered Cecilia to hog tie Brian as she complied tossing her wallet aside which the man ignored he eventually hogtied her as well before drawing a gun the Zodiac spoke I'm going to have to stab you people in a desperate plea Brian requested to be stabbed first unable to Bear witnessing Cecilia's potential fate the attacker complied the knife with a double-edged blade appeared either handmade or meticulously crafted featuring a wooden handle two brass ribits and white tape in place of the Guard Brian was stabbed six times in the back before the attacker turned to Cecilia and stabbed her 10 times they both both survived and played dead in hopes the man would leave and it worked the attacker then went to Brian's car and using black marker wrote on his car Vallejo 12268 7469 September 27th 69 630 by knife this s so those were the those were the murders uh the previous murders as well I'm pretty sure yes yeah those two days 4th of July and December 20th so he's saying that this is now his third killing by knife this note was accompanied by his circle with a cross logo once sure the man had left Cecilia and Brian yelled for help nearby fishermen heard them and alerted the authorities after getting free Brian went to find a park ranger for assistance while Cecilia stayed by the lake they were taken to the Queen of the Valley Hospital Brian later survived but Cecilia fell into a coma during the ride and passed away 2 days later just [ __ ] insane it just insane how many like people actually survived this case cuz they're so isolated in every single case and he never like never finished the job that's what I meant when I said I don't think he liked killing as much as he did talking about killing uh like he it seems that the murders are very like like sure the whole I'm I'm an escape convict I'm trying to get out of here was to lower their guard cuz that's that's a thing that like Killers do a lot in these cases is they'll try they'll be like I just want your wallet or I just want you know something to take you off guard and then from there they'll do the killing so that's all that was but to just like to to finally be at the moment that you theoretically planned months for and then you stab someone six times and then you stab the other person a few times and then you leave and then you just gloat about it for the next you know month to come in the papers or whatever it feels like he like the attention and the notoriety got him more than the actual aspect of killing and also this is another thing to note the Zodiac Killer is unique because most serial killers have a preferred method or they'll do something to the victim or you know something like that but the Zodiac Killer doesn't really have any of that sometimes he kills them with a knife sometimes a gun sometimes he ties them up other times he just shoots them and drives away it's like the The Killing is Just a means to an end for him yeah 100% I also think that it's it's very clear that this is still all premeditated like he clearly goes to Great Lengths to still do the things that he's doing because like he showed up with a [ __ ] executioners Hood like with a sonon uh zodiac symbol on the [ __ ] breast of it like yeah that takes premeditation to a whole new level I I don't mean I don't mean any of that to say I don't think it wasn't premeditated or spre or anything like that uh it's just unique in how much he doesn't Relish in it at least in the moment you know in the in the in the actual killings he definitely relishes in oh yeah yeah super relishes symbol that he creates yeah of course yeah yeah yeah well 100 I I agree with you I don't think the I think the killings were like you said a means to an end yeah yeah yeah so this was October 11th of 1969 the murder of Paul Stein 29 he was a cab driver for the Yellow Cab Company in San Francisco and he started his night shift around 8:45 p.m. after his initial Fair Leroy site the assistant traffic manager for the cab company directed Paul to pick up a passenger at 500 9th Avenue on the western side of San Francisco this would be the last known contact with Paul less than 15 minutes later he was discovered lifeless covered in blood in the passenger seat of the Ford Galaxy taxi cab he was driving at 10:46 p.m. the taxi meter read 625 $6.25 allowing the police to estimate that Paul Steins likely picked up his second Fair around the Mason and giri intersection or Union Square the intended destination was Washington and Maple Street near precidio however for reasons still unknown the cab drove around drove about a block away from its intended destination to Washington and Cherry Street at 9:55 p.m. Paul's wallet and keys were missing and have never been recovered a significant portion of his shirt was torn off later mailed with a letter to the San Francisco Chronicle additionally bloody fingerprints were recovered from the car just across from the cab three teenagers witnessed the event unfold through their House's window they observed the attacker meticulously removing a portion of Paul's shirt and wiping down various areas of the vehicle including the interior door or including the interior driver's side compartment exterior right front passenger door and the driver side door handle teenagers called the police at 9:58 p.m. but a miscommunication regarding the attacker's description led to patrolling officers being told to be on the lookout for a black male this confusion allowed the actual Zodiac Killer to escape the teenagers were approximately 50 to 60 ft away from the taxi and described the suspect as 5'8 or 5'9 heavy build reddish blonde hair glasses dark brown trousers a dark or navy blue jacket a parka jacket and dark shoes on that same night police officers Donald folk and Eric zelus unaware of the corrected description were patrolling and spotted a white male with a crew cut he wore a navy blue jacket and rust or brown trousers along with tan engineering style Footwear walking East on Jackson Street mistakenly looking for mistakenly looking for a black adult male the officers did not find the man suspicious upon receiving the correct description the officers reviewed a composite sketch and began to consider the possibility that they had encountered the killer that night the man they observed bore a resemblance to the description provided by the witnesses though notably he didn't appear to be carrying anything the officers dispute that they communicated with the individual with some account suggesting that they stopped the individual to ask if he had seen anything suspicious to which he replied that he had seen a man walking the other direction waving a firearm this situation is such a deviation from from all the other situations that he did like think about he was in the middle of a residential area and it it almost feels like um I know we're talking about how meticulous and and methodical he was this this feels like just a random killing almost like he just domed the taxi driver in the back of the head like it doesn't it doesn't feel like all of these other killings yeah this is definitely the most like different one usually he does it like in complete isolation like is only so far had only targeted couples this is the first individual that he's targeted and he does it in an area where he didn't like survey the surroundings to make sure he was even alone there were plenty of people to witness it he didn't drive away he walked away like it's all very different so it seems more like this kind of was a spur of the- moment thing that he did I'm sure it probably wasn't but it definitely does feel like a spof the- moment thing also just the um the difference of victims right like this is just a random uh cab driver whereas all the others are couples I I feel like that's that's such a deviation it's interesting and then the this is a very famous image the police sketch of the man this is the one that I think most people have probably seen floating around to represent what the Zodiac Killer looked like yeah I I don't have a whole lot to say about it other than it looks it looks like a looks like a really normal like NPC level dude like it's not someone that would be really like a aling to see just looks like a normal guy fits the description of what the officers described when they were still looking for the wrong like working under the wrong description of who the suspect was so I think there's a really good chance they did see this man and again like think about how confident do do you think that this situation happened because he was feeling like an unprecedented level of confidence and he was trying to escalate his uh put him in put himself into more tricky circumstances to get out of because he was feeling so confident um not necessarily if I had to spitball why he would have done this I think it was probably maybe out of frustration like cuz now he's had two victims survive and maybe like he's trying to get better at it potentially would be something I'd consider because he's now like he almost had a third victim survive as well like she passed away two days later like he he's not like like Isaiah said he's not very good at killing people so maybe this was one of those things where he wanted to guarantee that he could kill somebody like you he was feeling resentful yeah that that's that's actually an interesting uh Theory because the two people that did survive were both men so maybe he's like I got to get the men count back up or something I got to I've got to kill a man basically yeah like what does it take to actually finish a man off or something potentially well not you know yeah uh potentially I think that's that's cuz again it's just such a big deviation from every other murder and it was it was such a deviation to the point where I'm like maybe this isn't the Zodiac Killer but we would later on go on to find out that um he he himself confirmed that he was the the killer of this this man well as confirmed as it can be you there's still I mentioned this before the show but there's still a theory that there was multiple zodiac Killers it wasn't all one guy so I don't necessarily believe that but it's also important to note that there's no way of knowing Beyond 100% a shadow of a doubt that it really is the Zodiac we can say that about everything to do with this I know the identity of the Zodiac Killer because there's just we we will never know honestly we I don't think we will ever know October 13th 1969 letter to the San Francisco Chronicle following the murder a letter was sent to the San Francisco Examiner short actually I think it's the chronicle from the Zodiac Killer shortly after the murder of Paul Stein where he haunted police for their failures on the night of the killing the Letter's Val validity is considered undeniable due to the fact that it included a portion of the bloodstain shirt from Paul Stein that was removed from the scene of the crime so it's definitely the the letter is definitely from the person who killed Paul Stein that's undeniable but what Charli saying it's possible it could not be the Zodiac it could be some it could be a copycat killer it could just be another random killer as well that's just taking the mantle yeah I I think that the does like I've seen that theory as well I don't personally subscribe to it because I think that the handwriting is pretty similar like they they had handwriting Specialists on hand to confirm the similarities between letters so I think it would be extremely hard to like replicate replicate oh maybe not because they were published letters as well so maybe someone they were they were in the paper someone could get really good at replicating it you could absolutely emulate it if you spend enough time I don't it's something I think experts might still be able to tell like there's such I don't know much about the the art of handwriting or whatever but I think there's a lot of subtleties that your conscious mind doesn't pick up on that handwriting experts May pick up on so I'm not sure regardless it's commonly uh said by you know police investigators that this was the Zodiac Killer so I'm counting it as a Zodiac killer kill and I believe that it was so he he goes on to say in the letter this is the Zodiac speaking I am the murderer of the taxi driver over by Washington Street and Maple Street last night to prove this here is a bloodstained piece of his shirt I am the same man who did in the people in the North Bay Area the SF Police could have caught me last night if they had searched the park properly instead of holding road races with their motorcycles seeing who could make the most noise the car the car drivers should have just parked their cars and sat there quietly waiting for me to come out of cover school children and this is this is where get concerning school children make make nice targets I think I shall wipe out a school bus some morning just shoot out the front tire and then pick off the kitties as they come bouncing out so he's he's trying to spread as much Terror as possible yeah also I do think it's him cuz he misspelled motorcycle I was actually going to say there's like a lot less misspellings in this one which there's less you're right you're right but the characteristic mispelling of motorcycles is a dead giveaway so shortly after saying that you know he's going to shoot a bunch of kids which is uh you know something that San Francisco was absolutely threatened about on October the 22nd uh it says during a live podcast of uh a talk show on Kg TV in San Francisco a person pretending to be the Zodiac Killer called in to the talk show to talk to the host the show was hosted by Jim Dunbar and prominent attorney Melvin belly the caller spoke in a soft monotone voice he sounded stressed and occasionally incoherent he complained of severe headaches and requested help claiming that he was afraid he would kill again belly acted as a mediator and tried to gain the trust of the caller offering to arrange a meeting between the two he asked the caller to reveal his identity so that he could receive assistance nothing fruitful was gained through this however and law enforcement was unable to trace the call due to the caller not staying on the line long enough for a successful Trace there were doubts as to whether the caller was actually the Zodiac Killer and later the police and FBI concluded that it was likely a hoax after analyzing the call yeah I'm not 100% sure like I I was trying to research into it and there's no real direct confirmation either way that it was or wasn't the Zodiac Killer apart from the Zodiac Killer later himself writing that it wasn't but I don't know I feel like the Zodiac Killer himself is a liar and I also feel like with how confident he was getting it's not impossible to believe that he might have called into like talk shows and stuff like that's not out of the realm of possibility for me personally believe I think I used to think this talk show or like what sorry when I was first researching all this I thought the talk show was a total fake until the letter he later sends where he says that he can't stop himself and it almost sounds like he has some kind of I know they say that the DSM no longer recognizes multiple personality disorder as a thing but it's some kind of schizophrenia that may lead to similar conditions so I don't know may I I don't entirely write that off yeah I don't think it's out of Personality or anything like I was saying this this person clearly loved the attention and clearly got some kind of gratification out of the attention and there's like going on a and also like throughout throughout the story there's this kind of escalation in what he does and how how he acts and the next escalation from talking to journalists or or the uh newspapers is to go on a talk show surely so yeah I don't I don't consider it out of out of the realm of possibility but I guess the police and FBI concluded that it was likely a hoax I tried to look into what they meant by analyzing the call like how they determined that it was a hoax but I couldn't find anything conclusive or concrete as to how they rulle it out so not sure what what they what they did to do like rule it out so I don't know November 8th 1969 uh the San Francisco Chronicle received a card from the Zodiac Killer the front depicting a picture of hanging pen with liquid dropping off it it read sorry I haven't written but I just washed my pen um so this was like a he was he was trolling again like he's sending like greeting cards now with like funny funny like pictures on them and stuff like that and obviously obviously the letter about like sorry I haven't written in a while is because he has he hadn't written in a month or so in two months yeah um so hey guys it's me again sorry it's been a while this is the Zodiac speaking I thought you would need a good good laugh before you hear the bad news you won't get the news for a while yet PS could you print this new Cipher on your front front spelled Fu NT front page I get awfully lonely when I'm ignored so lonely I could do my thing thing is capitalized and there's like 100 exclamation points after it and then it's got a symbol and he spells uh he he says December July August September October equals seven so he's saying that he's killed seven people at this point which we only have five confirmed victim so unless he's cting the two people that survived as that seven or he's insinuating that he's killed two other people that the police don't know about I'm not 100% sure I don't think anyone is I I'd probably say he's counting the people who survived yeah if I had that's kind of what I think as well yeah I I it is possible that well I don't know I was going to say it is possible that he was also killing other people though that the police don't know about but again like we were saying I I can't remember if we said it on on this episode or before before the recording started I I don't think he would be capable of killing someone and not bragging about it so I feel like we would know um another note here he spelled December d s that's another thing that's like that doesn't even sound right okay so at this point maybe the misspellings are part of his way of letting the police know it's actually him good point yeah if he if he remains consistent in his misspellings like it gives a bit of validity yeah interesting yeah potentially yeah because someone thinking to pretend to be him and in the police letters wouldn't think to misspell stuff unless they saw the misspellings beforehand yeah yeah true that's something to think about attached with this letter was what was called the 34 the 340 Cipher which was only decoded in December 2020 so it was it took 50 years for this uh for this decription to take place and unlike the earlier 408 character Cipher that the Zodiac sent the three 40 Cipher was far more complex obviously it's believed to involve things such as transposition which is rearranging the letters in the cipher homophonic substitution which uses it's using multiple symbols to represent the same letter or a combination of both so he upped the difficulty level on the cipher itself he realized that he needed to uh make it a bit more difficult the difficulty curve may have been a bit extreme though there the Zodiac Killer cuz it took 50 years for this son of a [ __ ] to be solved so maybe maybe ease it back a little bit this made it harder to find a cons pattern and way to crack it and there was also the fact of the Zodiac Killer himself potentially making mistakes whether intentionally or unintentionally that could add complexity to solving the code so we don't know if he like cuz he cuz he is um he's coming across as a bit of a troll to me so maybe he was trying to make it as impossible like unfair as possible that could be that could be a part of it maybe he made the mistakes in the cipher on purpose just to frustrate them that's that's potentially a thing but whatever it was solved in 2020 uh through private citizens using Advanced code breaking software and algorithms that the code was finally cracked and the following message was found so we needed we needed like AI to solve this [ __ ] we needed AI to solve this uh Cipher it reads I hope you are having lots of fun in trying to catch me that wasn't me on the TV show which brings up a point about me I am not afraid of the guest chamber uh just a quick note the guy on the the TV show was talking about how scared he was of the gas chamber wanted to stop killing and stuff like that and begging for help basically MH so he says I'm not afraid of the gas chamber because it will send me to paradise all the sooner because I now have enough slaves to work for me where everyone else has nothing when they reach Paradise so they are afraid of death I am not afraid because I know that my new life is life will be an easy one in Paradise death yeah I'm still on the troll Theory yeah that that whole sections just to mess with them it's disappointing that that took like that that was was the outcome of 50 years of that was 50 years yeah just this guy talking about that wasn't me on TV I'm going to go to paradise with all my slaves what a [ __ ] lame what a lame [ __ ] end to that 50 that's why like there's a bunch of people like oh if we can solve all the ciphers we'll know who it was I would I don't believe him no he he would have never put his actual name or anything in there to be fair no I I I I know well we'll get to it soon but I still think no matter what he there was no chance he was ever going to give any like real identifying information no it was all the game plan on November 9th of 1969 uh this is the death machine or bus bomb letter which is already a great start sent to the San Francisco Chronicle uh in his 7-page letter to the San Francisco Chronicle the Zodiac boasted of having murdered seven people and expressed growing frustration with law enforcement he disclosed that the police had indeed encountered him on the night of Paul Stein's murder referring to the office officer as a quote blue Pig he revealed that he was present in the nearby park when questioned by the police about a man with a gun he deliberately misled the officers by directing them away from his actual location the officers contested this however and it is unsure whether or not it is entirely accurate or not regardless it's widely believed and corroborated that the officers did at least notice or come into the proximity of the Zodiac Killer as he fled the scene the letter which arrived the following day after the previous letter also contained the bad news that the Zodiac Killer had mentioned the letter reads as follows this is the Zodiac speaking up to the end of October 1st I have killed to the end of October I have killed seven people I have grown rather angry with the police for their telling lies about me so I shall change the way the collecting of slaves yes so I shall change the way the collecting of slaves I shall no longer announce to anyone when I commit my murders they shall look like routine robberies killings of anger and a few fake accidents Etc the police shall never catch me because I have been too clever for them one I look I hate that was that a sigh I I hate that he wasn't caught immediately like he's so braggadocious I hate it so but my falling off point with him is the misspelling yours is that he's too bragging again no one none of us are you know hurt by the killings that's not the issue no it's the attitude it's the attitude it's it's you know what it is it's his bad sportsmanship that's what makes him insufferable yeah um one I look like the description passed out only when I do my thing the rest of the time I look entirely different there's that misspelling so I think this is him I shall not tell you what my deise consists of when I kill disguise I think dis oh oh disguise that's disgusting that is that is d e s c i s e that is crazy I thought he was trying to say decision or something DEC decisive I hate this guy even more now all right two as of yet I have left no fingerprints behind me contrary to what the police say groups have parking about 10 minutes apart then the motorcycles went about 150 ft away going from South Northwest PS two cops pulled a goof about 3 minutes after I left the cab I was walking down the hill to the park when this cop car pulled up and one of them called me over and asked if I saw anyone acting suspicious or strange in the last 5 to 10 minutes and I said yes there was this man who was running by waving a gun and the cops peeled Rubber and went around the corner as I directed them and I Disappeared into the park a block and a half away never to be seen again yeah a block and a half away to never be seen again I I run on sentences too that's it yeah we got to catch this guy hey pig doesn't it rile you up to have your nose rubbed in your boo boos he spelled nose n o z e what the [ __ ] no it's just it's on purpose like he's doing this just to keep taunting the officers [ __ ] also can't keep getting away with this I didn't remember this part was this uh was it published at any point that the officers may have seen someone that looked like the description of the zodiac was that ever publicly published um uh I remember I I remember whenever I researched about this years ago reading that detail that the police talked to him possibly and then he ran away um yeah but Charlie saying was it published at like with the Zodiac Killer know about that information or someone know about that information in the public at the time I don't think so I don't think they would have published that information themselves I don't think they because until this letter came out that was just a normal interaction with the police yeah I guess that makes sense true and then this letter comes out they're like oh that might have been the guy yeah potentially anyway the the guy who's like yeah someone's over there waving a gun whatever so if you cops going back to reading the letter oh yeah you you did you did read the boooo pot continue yeah yeah yeah um going back to reading the letter if you cop think I'm going to take on a bus the way I stated I was you deserve to have holes in your heads take one bag of ammonium nitrate fertilizer and one gallon of stove oil and dump a few bags of gravel on top and then set the [ __ ] off and will positively ventilate anything that should be in the way of the blast the death machine is already made I would have sent you pictures but you would be nasty enough to trace them back to the developer and then to me so I shall describe describe my masterpiece to you the nice part of it is all the parts can be bought on the open market with no questions asked one batch bat one bat po clock oh one battery powered clock will run for approximately one year one photo electric switch two copper leaf springs two 6volt car batteries one flashlight bulb and reflector one mirror two 18-in cardboard tubes black with shoe polish inside and out does anyone know why you would need a mirror for a bomb just in you want to like see yourself when you put it down or something look how cool you look with your zodiac outfit on F so the the explosive he described was the the fertilizer bomb but this is a battery powered clock photo electric switch this sounds like an more of an electrocution thing cuz there's no actual actual accelerant unless I'm missing something in that description of you have a clock a switch two Copper Springs car batteries flashlight Bowl One Mir isn't isn't the ammonium nitrate fertilizer and stuff like that is this the same thing he's describing the bag nitrate and that this stuff like the uh battery power clock and stuff I think that's the machinery and then this is the chemical uh the ammonium nitrate fertilizer is the chemical components yeah so that's your accelerant that's your actual blast I guess this is a trigger mechanism what I guess he's going to describe it the rest of it in second but this is some kind of like electrical mechanism yeah um so he said after describing that he says the system checks out from one end to the other in my test what you do not know is whether the death machine is at the site or whether it is being stored in my basement for future use I think you do not have the manpower to stop this one by continually searching the road sides looking for this thing and it won't do to re rout it will it won't do to re route and rescheduled the buses because the bomb can be adapted to new conditions have fun by the way it could be rather messy if you try to Bluff me PS be sure to print the part I marked out on page three or I shall do my thing to prove that I am the Zodiac ask the Vallejo cop about my electric Gun Site which I used to start my collecting of slaves yeah I I looked up about the electric Gun Site and I could not find any information but I'm assuming the Vallejo cops or Police Department like that was something significant to them but I couldn't find any information on it so I don't know yeah so to start the collecting of slaves would have been the first murder yeah uh isn't that the murder when he said he used the flashlight yeah he said that he used the black in the middle of the the the bulb burn so is that what he means by Electric Gun Site maybe yeah maybe but he had published letters previously with that information in it as well so yeah that would is he just resurfacing yeah information that's already been established I don't I assumed that it was new information but I couldn't find anything on it so I'm not 100% sure December 20th of 1969 this is the letter to Melvin belly so on the first anniversary of the lake Herman Road murders a letter arrived to Melvin belly from the Zodiac Killer to verify his identity the Zodiac included a piece of Paul Stein shirt dear Melvin this is the Zodiac speaking I wish you a happy Christmas the one thing I ask of you is this please help me I cannot reach out for help because of this thing in me because of this thing in me won't let me I am finding it extremely difficult to hold it in check I am afraid I will lose control again and take my ninth and possibly 10th victim please help me I am drowning at the moment the children are safe from the bomb because it is so massive to dig in and the trigger Mech requires much work to get it adjusted just right but if I hold back too long from no n I will lose complete all control of myself and set the bomb up please help me I cannot remain in control for much longer that so I I don't know how you boys feel about that but to me that just sounds like a bunch of like [ __ ] like it it doesn't seem like this is genuine being genuine or anything at all it's just once again trying to cause a bit of a panic and he's you know I don't think this is a situation where he's suffering from like this demon inside of him I think it's all just part of his game yeah the the the reason I mentioned this letter earlier is because if you did if someone did say that the person who called into the talk show was the Zodiac Killer then this letter makes sense as to why he would be in a position where he would call and say he needs help and then send a letter that says that wasn't me on the show because there's like he has some level of schizophrenia that's causing you know both sides of his mind to kind of compete against each other or you know some kind of mental disorder that causes that so maybe this letter could be a manifestation of it but I think the more than likely Solutions what you said that this is all just like like oh the the police want to think I'm some troubled person who has this condition is a just a troll similar to the slaves thing yeah it's also uh worth noting that this is like I think one of the first times he's reaching out to people outside of the police department and outside of the um you know the media like the uh the newspapers this is like Melvin belly is a attorney and he I I feel like the Zodiac Killer would have only known about him because he appeared on that talk show as a co-host um dur during that segment or whatever so I I feel like now he's reaching out to people even just Loosely connected to the case um um so he's trying to get uh into as many people's lives and and start trolling them as much as possible as well um yeah I I I agree with you guys though I don't think that this is genuine by any means I don't think I think it's the troll yeah I agree so this next one is the one that I find to be very that last one was so short yeah so this was on April 20th of 1970 so this is the my name is cipher a letter was sent to the San Francisco Chronicle with the z13 cipher claiming to contain the Zodiac's name it wasn't until years later that French engineer fa FAL zeroi claimed to have CL cracked the cipher with it apparently saying my name is care this is close to Lawrence K who is a suspect in in the Zodiac murders it is important to note the accuracy of this is disputed in the letter he claims to have killed 10 people even more if his bus bomb worked but it had been a dud in the letter he depicts a new bomb setup this is the Zodiac speaking by the way have you cracked the last Cipher I sent you my name is cipher I am mildly serious as I am mildly serus as to how much money you have on my head now I hope you do not think that I am the one who wiped out that blue meanie with a bomb at the the cop station even though I talked about killing school children with one it just wouldn't do to move in on someone else's territory but there is more glory in killing a cop than a sid because a cop can shoot back I have killed 10 people to date it would have been a lot more except that my bus bomb was a dud I was swamped out by the rain we had a while back the new bomb is set up like this P.S I hope you have fun trying to figure out who I killed and then he drops like SC atics in here to like a a design he came up with yeah another bomb like diagram SL schematics like you said uh just a quick note you said Lawrence K that that was my own typo it would appear it's Lawrence Kane yeah that's the suspect instead of Lawrence K so it would have had to be he got two letters wrong in the my name is yeah my name is KR which is K a yr that's what the cipher apparently comes out as and the closest suspect that matches that kind of that kind of name is Lawrence Kane k n e but again it's like I I don't believe in that I don't believe in it because like again I don't think he actually would have included his name or details anyway I think if he found out the police had a suspect that wasn't him he would he's the type of guy to just be like that's me like you know to make them chase some other random guy it's super possible but as we get to the profile I think there's a lot that Linds credibility to it actually just being him at least from what I remember like I thought like I to me a lot of what Kane was I'll just wait I'll just wait there's get ahead he's getting excited we can we can all go over what we think but to me Kane was always the one that stood out as the most probable but maybe I'll change my mind as we keep going you you really hate Kane I don't know it just everything seemed to make sense um April 28th 1970 the dragon letter to San Francisco Chronicle just over a week later another letter was received the letter was in a Jolly Roger Brand card depicting a character riding a dragon and the card says sorry to hear your asses a dragon I don't what what does this even mean Dragon like your ass your ass yeah oh right yeah [ __ ] Boomer humor a similar card can actually be seen in a news interview with Brian harell the Survivor of the lake Berry Esser attack so there was a news interview with Brian harell and in it like they showed all the you know cards that he received while he was recovering in the hospital and there is actually like a very eerily similar uh drawing on the card I'm not sure if these cards were just popular at the time or or what and I'm not sure what this even really insinuates I doubt he stabbed himself and then his girlfriend um so I'm not sure if if this is unintentional or what but it's just I don't know I thought it was an interesting note um and the note the the actual letter says if you don't want me to have this blast you must do two things one tell everyone about the bus bomb with all the details two I would like to see some nice zodiac buttons wandering about town every everyone else has these buttons like peace sign black power Melvin eats blobber Etc well it would cheer me up considerably if I saw a lot of people wearing my button please no nasty ones like Melvin's what a loser thank you zodiac like please don't be mean to me guys I'm trying my best out here what what also just a real quick note what is Melville Melville eats blubber I found the pin I imagine it's a political thing like an election yeah it's probably something political yeah so he wanted people to wear zodiac buttons around town um as a as a sign of exerting power and control over people obviously and and getting the recognition that he desperately wanted and this is what kind of upsets me about this case because we kind of gave it to him you know what I mean like there's movies about him now we're doing a [ __ ] podcast about him he kind of got what he wanted which kind of [ __ ] sucks when you think about it I guess he's still dead though guess he's still he's still lost in the end yeah true the unrelated to the Zodiac case but look at I Googled Melville eats blubber apparently it's about Herman Melville the guy who wrote Moby Dick and it was apparently a counterculture thing against the book Moby Dick I guess oh I don't know why I don't know why they had beef with him over that well maybe it was just Oh you mean the people I I assume that he only knew about it just cuz it was yeah yeah that's why that's why I'm sure he only knew about I'm like why did they make that though [ __ ] Mo I guess yeah sorry unconnected but continue who knows I didn't expect Moby Dick to be Loosely connected with the Zodiac 2 months later the Zodiac sent another letter to the San Francisco Chronicle upset that people in the San Francisco Bay Area were not complying with his polite requests to wear nice zodiac buttons he notes that due to the time of the year he's promised to punish them by targeting a school bus was not possible because of school holidays but he would punish them eventually in another way he also claims to have shot a man sitting in a park car with a 38 firearm 38 mm firearm but I couldn't find any 38 conf on that 38 mm is like is like an anti-aircraft like artillery show well it could have been that we don't know show he rolled up on someone with the hoer like aimed at their window that's like that's actually some Wy coyote [ __ ] I don't know anything about guns you're going to have to fact check me on that [ __ ] so so you see how it says say 38 right so that is in relation to one like like it's it's 38 away from being one so in America guns are married calibers are by inches so that means it was 38 of an inch gotta like the actual size of the bullet whereas in millimeters which is what like European rounds are are 38 mm like like ac130 shell like yeah the Zodiac Killer had air support I'll punish him in another way I just got my Chopper Gunner kill streak yeah wait wait what's what is his kill streak at he was at like eight here if he's at 10 if he's at 10 he's definitely got his pay blow right so he's he's s in a predator missile yeah yeah hey if he had Hardline then he did have his ac130 so maybe that's what he was on about the world's first Cod player IRL he includes the fourth and final z32 symbol CER so this is the very last Cipher and a map of San Francisco and vicinity like the area around it I think um claiming to lead to where a bomb is set and giving the police till next fall to dig it up no bomb was ever found the z32 was unable to be broken at the time as it had 29 different characters for the 32 symbol Cipher again zerel the the French I think it was French um code breaker from before engineer from before claimed to have cracked the cipher which apparently reads Labor Day f 45.69 North 58719 West so those are obviously directions following these coordinates on the earth magnetic field it lands close to a school not far from South Lake Tahoe which would align with the Zodiac's threats to Target a school bus and of course it's in the area so that seems like too much of a coincidence to yeah you know not be true it accidentally gives a you know a a date and a location nearby yeah yeah but I wonder why it didn't it didn't go off why um um why he didn't like go through with this plan maybe he just couldn't get the bomb to work or maybe he got distracted or maybe I think there was probably just never a bomb in the first place he was just making these threats to scare people he seemed to have some knowledge of bum making though yeah some like rudimentary knowledge of it that I feel like it doesn't mean that he's making it you'd still have to make it which is a very difficult component I'll also say guys like this who like to see a panic not to pour more gas on the bomber is the Zodiac Killer fire but Ted kazinski did make several bombs and then in one of his letters he threatened to blow up an airplane leaving the Los Angeles airport and it never happened and then later he was like oh I never had any intention to I just wanted to rile people up so full fully possible that this was all just again so to put on a show for him or maybe he did plant the bom or whatever and buried it and it just never went off and it's still out there somewhere because he sucks at making bombs it would I think it would have been found by now I I'm I'm confident they probably would have dug at those coordinates and everything nearby maybe he got the coordinates wrong like he put those coordinates down but it was completely wrong and he was in the wrong area he misspelled the coordinates yeah I think we need to I obviously I I hate to say it but he's probably a smart a smart guy um but we should treat him like a stupid idiot just to take some of the power back I think I agree well look at this dumb guy doesn't know how numbers work idiot idiot doesn't know direct can't make a BM nerd nerd oh oh you you like ciphers you like Puzzles idiot [ __ ] lame [ __ ] Boy Scout [ __ ] this is the Zodiac speaking I have become very upset with the people of San Fran Bay Area they have not complied with my wishes for them to wear some nice zodiac buttons sad face I promise to punish them if they did not comply by Anni annihilating a full School Bus he almost felt busy there b us SS thank you but now school is out for the summer so I punished them in another way I shot a man sitting in a park car with a 38 38 caliber ah look at you zodiac 12 San Francisco PD zero wait so now he's up to 12 yeah I think he's just making the [ __ ] up it's not right it's not accurate I I think what happened I think what happened you remember how earlier I said I feel like the killings are a mean to a means to an end I think he got five kills and then he got what he wanted everyone was talking about who he might be deciphering codes having talk shows about him right so I think all he needs to do now is just set it home and write letters every now and then where he's like oh I've killed three more I've killed five more I've killed six more whatever and just send those off and it's enough yeah oh he do he doesn't even need to do the work anymore yeah exactly he could just say he's killed more people and he gets the results he wants yeah I mean yeah potentially that's interesting I've never considered that um the map coupled with this code will tell you where the bomb is set you have until next fall to dig it up and then nothing ever happened with that well that was weird anyway that that concludes the bomark of the Z ex story it it is it still out there in San Francisco somewhere maybe we'll find out one day I guess so on July the 24th of 1970 uh cathol John's is considered a potential victim of the Zodiac Killer although this has not been definitively proven on March the 22nd of 1970 while driving on Highway 132 near Patterson California John's experienced car trouble when a strangel when a stranger signaled for her to pull over due to a wobbling wheel he offered assistance but after she resumed driving the wheel completely detached The Stranger then persuaded JNS to accept a ride with him however she soon sent something was a miss when he started to drive to isolated areas he then allegedly went on to threaten her verbally for 2 hours JNS managed to escape and sought help at a local police station where she identified the Zodiac from a wanted poster as her abductor her car was later discovered burned John's described the man as around 30 years old 5' 9 in tall weighing 160 lb with short dark hair heavy Rim glasses and dark clothing while she claimed her life was threatened during the ordeal the police report lacks specific details leading to disputes over its accuracy however the San Francisco Chronicle received a letter on July the 24th of 1970 where the Zodiac claims responsibility for this interaction quote this is the Zodiac speaking I am rather unhappy because you people will not wear nice zodiac buttons what a loser you w't shut up about the [ __ ] buttons so I now have a little list starting with the woman and her baby that I gave a rather interesting ride for a couple hours no he did not spell hours like that h o w e r s yeah Howers for a couple Howers one evening a few months back that ended in my burning her car where I found them okay uh um yeah I don't know I don't know would he I I don't think he would he have known about it okay hold on I have no idea but it just doesn't make any sense for him it does it make any sense for him to suddenly go from like wearing the gar driving up to people and shooting them to then be like Oh I'm going to sabotage a woman's car and then I'm going to drive her around for a couple hours supposedly not get a chance to kill her and then she gets away like I I don't know there was but again with the p Stein mot there was such a deviation from what he would normally do in that situation as well it's like he was very random with how how he did stuff what if what if this okay so this letter could be a copycat right because enough letters have come out at this point that someone can just you know claim to be the Zodiac and then follow the way he writes his letters because they've been published in the paper or what if this this may be pushing it a little bit but if the zodiac is just like farming uh I was about to say farming engagement I'm truly I'm truly YouTube brain YouTuber brain yeah yeah I'm too far gone I need to be put down um if he if he is just farming publicity then maybe he heard about this case in the paper that was linked to him so he writes a letter like yep that was me I'm still out there still hunting yeah if except she I mean she also I I positively ided him to the wanted poster that came before the letter though so it was already circulating in the papers as a zodiac attempted killing and then the killer takes credit for it or someone takes credit claiming to be the Zodiac Killer yeah also again weird that he didn't try to kill her like he she very vulnerable obviously I mean he's in situations where he pulls guns on people as tie each other up stabs him like you know he he goes a lot more intense because how does she say she got away threaten her verbally managed to escape and got to a police station yeah I believe she like hopped hopped out of the car or something like that like car would just I feel like he just shoot her before she got away I'm not saying he'd be successful at shooting her as we've seen but I don't know it's it's but again the guy changes up his Mo every time constantly yeah yeah so I don't know it's weird that's a weird one this is July 26 1970 little list letter so it was 2 days after the Kathleen John's letter the Zodiac sent another one to the San Francisco Chronicle talking about the ways he would torture his slaves in Paradise at the end of the letter he provides a clue relating to Mount Diablo code which is in reference to the button letter above where he claims to have planted a bomb this is the Zodiac speaking being that you will not wear some nice buttons how about wearing some nasty zodiac buttons or any type of zodiac buttons that you can think up if you don't if you do not wear any type of buttons I shall on top of everything else torture all thir all 13 of my slaves that I have waiting for me in Paradise some I shall tie over an Hills and watch them scream and twitch and squirm others shall have pine splinters driven under their nails and then burned others shall be placed in cages and fed salt beef until they are gorged then I shall listen to their pleas for water and I shall laugh at them others hanged by their thumbs and burn in the sun then I rub them down with deep heat to warm them up others I shall skin them alive and let them run around screaming and all billiard players I shall have them play in a darkened dungeon cell with crooked cues and twisted shoes yes I shall have great fun inflicting the most delicious of pain to my slaves sfpd Z zodiac 13 as okay you want me to stop there I ha this I I just no no no I I continue in a second I just hate this guy so much just writing letters to the police like oh what you all don't like my buttons well guess what those people I killed they don't get any water and I watch and I laugh he's trying to go for like Whimsy unhinged approach he's like dril I don't I don't think he's killing anyone to this point I think he's just like gloating having fun I think uh I think he goes [ __ ] Wild on the Dr Sue [ __ ] in this next paragraph it it becomes pretty [ __ ] weird Okay continue as someday it may happen that a victim must be found I've got a little list I've got a little list of society offenders who might well be underground who would never be missed who would never be missed this is the P wow this is the pestilential nuisances who write for autographs all people who have flabby hands and irritating laughs all children who are up in dates and implore you with I'm plat all people who are shaking hands shake hands like that and all third persons who with unspoiling take those who insist they'd none of them be missed they'd none of them be missed there's the banjo serator and the others of his race and the piano organist I got them on the list all people who eat peppermint and fum fit in your face they would never be missed they would never be missed and the idiot who praises with enthusiastic tone of centuries but this in every country but his own and the lady from the provinces who dress like a guy who doesn't cry and singularly abnormally the girl who never kissed I don't think think she would be missed I'm sure she won't be missed and that nice impr priest that is rather Rife the judicial hrist I've got him on the list all funny fellows comic men and clowns of private life they'd none of them be missed they'd none of them be missed an uncompromising kind of whatam whatchamacallit thingamabob and likewise well never mind and Tut Tut Tut Tut and what's his name and you know who but the task of filling up the blanks I rather leave up to you but it really doesn't matter whom you place upon the list for none of them be missed none of them be missed PS the Mount Diablo code concerns radians and number inches along the radians that's part of the rhyme there yeah so that's just like [ __ ] full-blown luny finans wake type [ __ ] is it fake lunacy though like he's playing into it I 100% think so yeah I think he's too good at being insane you know like it's not like every letter is like this it's like he switches in and out of it it's like it's not uncontrollable obviously he's a [ __ ] lunatic he's killing people but it's but that doesn't mean he's like yeah but if people use the word insane yeah people use the word insane as too much of like an excuse almost of like thought processes or ideas behind actions he's certainly evil of course but that doesn't mean he's crazy per se yeah definitely I think he's fully aware of everything he's doing and I think it's all just part of his his show that he's trying to put on yeah you all think he killed anyone after the first five nope I do not think so I'm I'm I don't know I can't point one way or the other I'm not sure about the um the the pre the woman we just talked about with the abduction like if I don't know either way on that um he goes he goes from this [ __ ] Dr Seuss lunacy that whatever that is and then immediately goes back into like talking about the Mount Diablo code and stuff like that like this is all obviously just a giant game to him October 5th 1970 the pace postcard to the San Francisco Chronicle arrives and he claims to now have 13 victims there are 13 hole punches in the letter also referencing the 13 victims it's worth noting that the score tally on the previous letter also stated that he had 13 victims it says Dear editor you'll hate me but I've got to tell you the pace isn't any slower in fact it's just one big 13th some of them thought it was horrible zodiac PS there there are reports City police Pig cops are closing in on me FK I'm crack proof what is the price tag now and this is an interesting one because it's made entirely out of like newspaper clipping so there's no handwriting or anything like that I'm not sure how they were able to confirm that it was directly him or not but it's considered I don't know it seems like at this point there's not a ton of like sure when he sends in the clippings of that the cab driver shirt I get it but other than that like I don't know what the vetting process is for this guy you know yeah this is considered to be from him though like pretty W wildly so they must have they must have an idea and then October 27th uh this is a Halloween card the Zodiac Killer then mailed a Halloween card depicting a skeleton and a pumpkin to the San Francisco crime reporter uh at the chronicle Paul Avery who's played by Robert Downey Jr in the Zodiac movie likely due to the fact that Paul Avery was frequently writing articles about the Zodiac Killer at the time and on the bottom right of the card there are also three symbols one unknown one Z like the letter Z and the zodiac symbol on the card also he writes out the word Paradise again and writes around it with by fire by gun by knife by rope and then slaves through the middle so he's saying that he's going to collect these slaves through these means through these four means although I don't think he's ever like lit anyone on fire at least as far as I know uh and then deliver them to his paradise basically what does the what's the Halloween card say from your secret pal I F it in my bones you ache you to know my name and so I'll clue you in but then why spoil the game me why spoil the game yeah yeah huh which which is a [ __ ] did he custom make that card why why would there be a card card that was a weird card before he had all the paradise and slave stuff oh is it meant to be like is it meant to be like a I know they do it for like Valentine's Day where you send Anon like a secret Santa thing but for Halloween yeah yeah it's a weird [ __ ] secret skeleton he clearly was having a lot of fun with like finding these cards and stuff yeah could I can't imagine this guy like a CVS like going through the aisles like I love this one yeah I found the perfect one like Macy's day that's where they need to be looking for this guy the Hallmark section um the symbols down the bottom of this card there's a z which is I assume means zodiac and then the zodiac symbol itself which we've come to know by this point and then the third symbol is like this little V with like dots around it I have no idea what that it looks almost Nordic the way it's like strong the lines but then there's not a lot of not in Nordic I don't think I I doubt this is like a real symbol from something I'm sure he's just made this up well actually wait I was just thinking about it um when was the bomb thing that was like 19 end of 1970 or middle of 1970 I think let me scroll up and look the the threat of the bomb the first one yeah yeah I think this was still it was it was November 9th of 1969 okay and they were saying that um they were saying that the bomb was like around the Mount Diablo area I'm pretty sure that he said that what if this is like a clue towards the where the bomb is set in the Mount Diablo area maybe it's like the silhouette of the mountain ranges or something you need to be looking at the mountains from a certain angle to find those dots lining up with it to find the interesting that is interesting point look at you is there is there a Mount Diablo in California there is yeah the Mount Diablo range I'm pretty sure yep yep wow look at you may could be something yeah that just came to me cuz look like mountain peaks to me the little at this point it's been 2 years since the initial threat but like you said maybe the bomb's still out there yeah yeah I think he said that it was going to uh explode this coming fall or something like that previous in April 28th of 1970 he does the one talking about the the whole Labor Day like giving the location and all that so 11 months later is when this letter shows up yeah but he I I remember I mean there's been so much information but I'm sure yeah after summer break he said it' blow up in the fall yeah in the fall so is I don't know it should it should have gone off by now because this is now into the spring but maybe it didn't maybe the bomb's still there okay okay I was going to say it's October fall I guess not um all right so March 13th 1971 wait wait wait sorry I was I was looking at the wrong date you're right October is in the fall so I was looking at the March 13th down there down here and get confused uh no you're right this got did get sent Halloween so yeah that does kind of place it in late fall timeline so yeah maybe H if he's still like going along with the bomb thing then this could potentially be a clue to the bomb to some degree it's such a random I okay I see that that does make sense with the timeline oh we might we may have cracked something we might be a to find the bum now imagine you just got this like right on the money they go there check it and it's the bomb and it has like DNA evidence of who the Zodiac was everything gets picture of the Zodiac Killer on it yeah like a it's it he left his driver's license you know you know who we need to collaborate uh with now the [ __ ] geoga wizard guy he needs to find this show him show him that drawing and he'll be like well clearly this is E Avenue on I know exactly where this is in Mount Diablo range I've looked at it multiple times actually it's right here this just in a freak accident a YouTuber in New Zealand blew up last week Zealand oh yeah you're Australia Australia sorry [ __ ] all you I'm sorry all you see people I get confused they got they got the wrong guy some poor guy in New Zealand go um all right so continuing on March 13 1971 so that is a few months later 5 months later in this letter he said he sent it to the Los Angeles Times which we've never heard of from before so he's branching out Zodiac Killer now claims to have 17 victims in this letter he calls the police the blue meanies I mean come on man which is a term connected to Yellow Submarine a fictional Army of beings who allegorically represent all the bad people in the world and he says this is the Zodiac speaking like I have always said I am crack proof If the blue meanies are ever going to catch me they had best get off their fat asses and do something because the longer they fiddle and fart around the more slaves I will collect for my afterlife I do have to give them credit for stumbling across my Riverside activity but they are only finding the easy ones there are a hell of a lot more down there the reason I'm writing to the times is this they don't bury me on the back pages like some of the others sfpd 0 zodiac 17 plus so now he doesn't even know how many he's killed maybe may like not to play not to give him more credit than he deserves and I I still mostly believe that he only killed five people but he did say in that last letter he's no longer going to announce specific killing so maybe you know I mean how many like homeless people die and it goes un reported all the time or you know like there's accidents so to speak that don't get connected maybe he was killing more people during this time who knows yeah and he yeah like you said he did say he was going to stop reporting it um yeah it's possible I guess I don't know I feel like he would be help he just killed five I still think he just killed five cuz I also don't think he could help himself but it is possible that mention about uh down at Riverside the police stumbling across my Riverside activity maybe there was like a local you know body found or whatever that the murderer never got caught because I mean a lot of murders in big cities especially back then go you know unsolved so could be yeah maybe I I could take this next part so on March the 22nd of 1971 so this is just uh about a week after the a little over a week after the last letter um while not making any direct connections and also while not being def definitively attributed to the zodiac byw law enforcement this letter seems to make claims as to The Disappearance of Donna lass a 25-year-old woman who went missing 6 and a half months in the Lake Tahoe area prior to the postcard arriving uh the postcard itself being sent to Paul Avery the postcard again has cutouts from newspapers with the message created that read quote Peak through the Pines Past Lake Tahoe areas it was mailed 6 and a half months after The Disappearance of a woman named Donna Lass yeah so I'm uh that's what I read I don't know how it directly like connects to Don alas but that's what people seem to believe it's him maybe that case was very prolific at the time um yeah he's gloating about another victim maybe it well the the notes the postcard seem to have sought victim 12 and then Peak through the Pines Past Lake too so maybe that that was just a very public thing at Lake Tahoe at that time disappearance of Donald lass and he's just saying it was me um but again it could be it could be something completely unrelated and he and he's just assign own it was during the time and went to Paul Avery so that's what people Le to believe why people leave to believe it may be connected yeah um interesting okay and I'll take this next one too because it's short on the 29th of January of 1974 so this is like three years after um the last letter the last definitive letter that was sent to the Los Angeles Times and the letter it's been a while yeah it's been a minute yeah so this is the Exorcist letter that was sent to the San Francisco Chronicle nearly 3 years after the Lake Tahoe postcard the Zodiac sent a letter and now claimed to have 37 victims in total the included poem appears to be an original creation and does not appear to be from any work of fiction here's the poem I saw and think the Exorcist was the best satirical comedy that I have ever seen signed Yours Truly he plunged himself into the billowy wave and an Echo arose from the suicides grave tit Willow tit Willow tit Willow P.S if I do not see this note in your paper I will do something nasty which you know I'm capable of doing me 37 sfpd 0 three years pass and he's added about 20 onto the uh the count also he's not using the zodiac symbol anymore oh he did misspell truly though and satirical and comedy so maybe this is him yeah I don't know it's likely maybe I don't know um yeah and then that's that's basically it there was a few more letters after that that he didn't sign as the Zodiac he would call himself the red phantom and stuff like that those ones are disputed they're not known for sure if it was actually the Zodiac Killer sending them but they are they talked about a fair bit and one of the lead investigators at the San Francisco homicide in uh you know in police squad whatever you want to call them Police Department Dave Toshi uh does stand by that some of the letters after that are actually from him and they were confirmed by by forensics but like handwriting analysis but it's it's not known for sure I don't think that was the last situation where the Zodiac Killer inserted himself into the conversation that 29th January 1974 Exorcist letter beyond that it's all just it's all just up in the air like no one knows for sure nothing happened after that point really so I guess now um we can talk about the potential suspects and theories and stuff like that starting with let's let's just go over let's just knock out a few quick ones uh Darlene which was the um victim from the second killings where uh Independence Day killings she had two husbands well she had an ex-husband and a current husband at the time who were both potential suspects but they were both quickly brought red out because they both had aliis um and then the next big one was Arthur Lee Alan which is probably the one most people are familiar with I have to imagine like he he's the prime suspect in many people's eyes he's the one I always thought it was yeah he's the one that I always thought it was as well so he was born 18th December 1933 and is often considered a prime suspect in the Zodiac case due to several compelling connections at the time of Sher Joe bat's murder on October 30th 19 66 66 though the Zodiac's involvement remains unproven but suspected Allan an elementary school teacher in California took sick leave on November 1st claiming to have been in the area where the murder occurred so that that was another murder that's not directly attributed to the Zodiac but like looking back he was in the area at the time so there's that may have been his first murder additionally shortly after the murder a desk was found at the RCC campus bearing a scratched poem that some believe May reference sher's killing potentially linking it to the Zodiac these circumstances among others have led to speculation about Allen's involvement in the Zodiac case Alan this is this is one that I found very [ __ ] interesting and I I think it's pretty wild Alan R received a watch for Christmas from his mother in 1967 the watch had the label zodiac on it which I think was the brand of the watch with the same circle with a cross symbol that zodiac the I guess would use so I mean yeah that's pretty weird yeah I also don't know how people didn't make the connection like oh there's a brand called zodiac that has that symbol well I don't know how the brand themselves wouldn't say something about it like hey he's infringing on our copyright use something else buer actually if you look at Zodiac watches like right not okay hold on hold on I'm sure they're great watches and I'm not meaning to imply them in anything that it's happened of course but if you look up Zodiac watches right now that's still their logo that's like their I cannot believe they didn't Rebrand that that's actually crazy yeah I kind of want one now maybe maybe it was the CEO of zodiac at the time he just going completely wild yeah like the the Australian guy saying that for the CEO listening not not the two good American boys who know better um anyway maybe it was a marketing move like the marketing Department marketing department came to him like you got to go out there and start killing it's going to be great for sales I never yeah yeah I I had a thought about this before but yeah like on every zodiac watch is just that symbol the the cross in the circle yeah yeah and he had one he was definitely uh police like saw him having one so it's not contested heed it from his mother in Christmas I mean with all already with like the connections it's pretty wild um and so a friend of Allen's don don Cheney claimed that Allan would make disturbing claims to his friend such as he would like to kill couples at random he would taunt the police with letters detailing his crimes this is a quote by the way he would sign the letters with the cross circle symbol from his watch he would call himself zodiac he would wear makeup to change his appearance he would attach a flashlight to the barrel of his gun in order to shoot at night he would fool women into stopping their cars in rural areas by claiming they had problems with their tires and loosen their lug and eventually take them captive Don claimed that these statements were made to him under the premise of Allan writing a novel so he was saying that Alan was saying all this stuff like I I don't think I believe Dawn because why on God's Earth when the killings were happening did he not think this was good to take the police and then afterwards he's like oh yeah all that killing stuff yeah he told me he did that for a book like what well I did I did read that he did did go to the police like as soon as the murder started happening but they didn't take him seriously no wait wait wait wait hold on hold on hold on yeah Dawn went to the police and said he says that he's taunting them with the Zodiac letters or whatever and the police were like yeah yeah get in line yeah well basically I think he went to them and said like I've got a friend that's concerning and I want to talk about it and they kind of just brushed him aside or took his statement and didn't worry about it they thought he was like just making [ __ ] up I think so he he estimated the conversation took place on January 1st 1969 which was shortly after the first killings Don would eventually take these claims to the police allowing them to obtain a search warrant for Allan as a suspect of the Zodiac Killer they didn't search his home in valo but instead a trailer that Allan used nearby in Santa Rosa and they found nothing of note Allan is said to have had a conversation with his friend where he claimed to have a fascination with the concept of hurting PE hunting people and according to him they would be more challenging to hunt than animals due to humans having intelligence this is obviously a reference to the most dangerous game which was a story by Richard Connell about a man who would hunt people because man is the most dangerous game of all so that comes up quite a bit like that that book and stuff him liking that book yeah and in 1968 Allan was fired from his job as an elementary school teacher after being caught molesting a student he was also dishonorably discharged from the Navy 10 years prior he moved back in with his parents but did not have a good relationship with them he fell into a spiral of depression which hit the worst around his birthday December 18th and Christmas the lake Herman Road murders occurred on December 20th so this fell within this kind of time frame Allan also owned the same type of ammunition used to kill the victims in this attack as proven by a search warrant executed by Vallejo police departments uh later on in 1991 yeah keep in mind this this guy was like a suspect for like 20 plus years yeah yeah a long time and they just couldn't they couldn't find concrete like uh forensic evidence they couldn't find conclusive forensic evidence tying him to the murders uh which is a shame because there's just so many [ __ ] compelling and and I don't know just over-the-top evidence here that feels way out like impossible to just be a coincidence like this the Blue Springs attack occurred at mere 4 minutes from Allen's residence notably Allan had a friend attempting to sell a brown corv which was a vehicle he occasionally drove the one of the survivors mik record the vehicle involved in the attack as brown possibly a Corvair furthermore between 1966 and 1977 Darlene Fen worked at the International House of Pancakes on Tennessee Street in Vallejo which was oneth of a mile from Allan's home like come on how how what are the odds of that during this time Alan reportedly expressed admiration for a waitress from the restaurant to his friend don don Cheney additionally in mid 1992 Mike identified Allan from from a lineup at the valo police department uh basically stating that's him he's the man that shot me in a lineup of the pictures Mike was I believe um the the the victim that survived from the Independence Day shooting yeah a man named Lee was also said to have been an associate of darling as described by her sister and as corroborated by a police report Arthur Allen's middle name was Lee l e i g h and he would often go by the name spelling it Lee l e e another thing to mention isn't Darlene the one who whenever the guy pulled up she the man said do you know that guy and she said oh never mind yeah she said something like if she didn't she would be like no of course not or something like that but she like acted uh unnaturally yeah H yeah maybe it was Lee maybe she didn't know him maybe she knew him yeah that's what I'm leaning towards Alan was well versed in the barrya area often engaging activities such as trapping scuba diving and camping there that's where that the stabbings took place on the day of the Barry Esser attack Alan informed valo police Sergeant Lynch during a 1969 interview that he intended to visit barasa but ultimately went to the coast inste providing a cryptic Alibi involving meeting a couple from Treasure Island which with which he had spent time with though he couldn't substantiate this claim and the couple were never located for validation so his Alibi was like I met this couple at the beach and hung out with them and like there was no no like examination of that or like confirmation where were you on this day I was with other people can we meet them no no they go know their names they go to a different school they go to a different school yeah what's omous about that was if he was the killer he was with another couple at the time when you think about it so maybe he was playing a game with the haha Mr very funny that was a joke for me no I know I'm just getting more annoyed by him as this goes on in a 1971 police interview Allan confessed to possessing bloody knives on the day of the attack weird confession attributing it to slaughtering a chicken size 10.5 shoe prints found at the crime scene matched Allan shoe size and during a 1991 search War police discovered a foot long knife with a sheath and rivets in allot's possession though they were not compared to the victim's wounds for some reason like they didn't comp them to the wounds to be fair those wounds would have been over 20 years and doubt was foric then yeah you don't think they had taken photos or something match definitively you would yeah yeah yeah a photo from the 70s like with the level of detail they were looking for back then wouldn't have been enough to match like the jagged pattern on the knife with the stabs or anything yeah right but in 1971 that 1971 police interview he did confess to possessing bloody knives on the day of the attack yeah yeah yeah that that's it's still weird don't get me wrong still very weird like I don't know uh a man named Ralph Spinelli who Alan had previously fought in 1958 which caused Allan to be arrested with the charges dismissed came forward to police claiming that prior to Stein's murder so the the cabie the cab driver Allan had admitted that he was the Zodiac Killer and would prove it by going to San Francisco and killing a cabbie after the murders the Zodiac had mailed letters with bomb diagrams and ingredients saying that the bomb was stored in his basement where Allan lived had basement which I as I understand is uh irregular in California it's not a common thing if in the city of San Francisco probably not yeah so him having a basement and also the Zodiac having said that he had a basement is kind of concerning and police found handwritten diagram of bombs with the same ingredients listed by the Zodiac so they found H what the [ __ ] wait wait wait wait they found handwritten diagrams for bombs in Arthur Le Allen's basement yeah that's what I've written here so that must have been in the research that I found what happened did you did you not remember that there there's so much research yeah no I get you hold on hold on there's no way there's no way they found Bom Bomb instructions in his basement I'm going to lose my mind going to start throwing stuff there was also mail order cataloges for guns bombs and booby traps Alan was also a fan of the movie The Most Dangerous Game so he had that film there as well in August 1971 police detectives interviewed Allan at his place of employment in penol oh this this is this is a really important information in my opinion penol California the last verified zodiac letter had been mailed in March 1971 just a few months prior however after this interview by police it would be another 2 and a half years before the Zodiac would send in another letter so like by reading it like that it sounds like the Zodiac got spooked because they finally interviewed Allan this this Prime Suspect and so he stopped sending in letters for 2 and A2 years furthermore Allan was arrested by the Sonoma County Sheriff's Department on a charge of child molestation in 1974 the Zodiac had ridden several times in 1974 breaking his 2 and a half years silence once again however once uh once he was arrested for that for that child molestation charge no proven zodiac letter was ever received again after his incarceration and arrest like that's so suspicious right yeah as soon as Alan gets arrested the letters stop yeah yeah both times twice no like once sure but both times like he got spooked and then the letter stopped and then he got arrested again and the letter stopped again like come on that's and that's on top of all this other evidence or circumstantial sure maybe like there's no forensic evidence hold on this is from zodiac killer.com just to further the point you made this is a direct quote okay in 1991 the search warrant executed by the VPD revealed Allan had in his basement handwritten diagram for bombs composed of ammonium nitrate fertilizer and gravel mhm well there's no stove oil there so it can't no no no he forgot the stove oil so it can't be the same guy that's what the police department said he's clear of all charges yeah well he's innocent in my eyes now except for being a child molester yeah that that part yeah every every every crime case read every single True Crime case the killer only gets away because the police are blind they get like they're like just bumbling oh my gosh okay well the main reason he was ruled out in the police's eyes was that his handwriting did not match that over the Zodiac I'm going to strangle him whoever came to that conclusion I'm going to get him I can't I can't do this anymore that can is forensic evidence back then though so um and also another note is that apparently Lee was amby extra so it's potent it's entirely possible that he could have written the letters with one hand and then all his other like in real life stuff he have bomb diagrams of the exact materials the killer was using in his basement in San Francisco and they said no the handwriting's different I was I was sold on this guy when he had the [ __ ] watch for zodiac symbols on it I mean to to be fair though to be fair like uh if you you wrote this as well this guy does not match any of the depiction of the zodiac that any of the victims had given he runs counter to all of them in a big way like he's taller he's heavier and he looks much older like how tall was he uh Jackson doesn't have it written here but even just looking at his mug shot he is a lot bigger than 5'8 I know that the shoe size does match the shoe size between the two Allen's driver's license States his height as 6' tall m well I would put him in the okay that put him in the 58 to six feet tall from the first victims I guess and if he slouches about yeah yep so Arthur Lee Allen died on August 26 1992 age 58 of natural causes the police conducted another search 2 days after his death they have been secretive about what was found in the search but we're apparently looking for a vide tape labeled Zed or Z what was on the tape has never been revealed although police have said there was no confession I don't know why the [ __ ] they wouldn't reveal this [ __ ] yeah found a tape titled Z no they they were apparently looking for aape lab for it we don't know if they found it or not and it's been 30 years since that happened I don't understand why they would be so tight lipped about it unless it was they probably just never found it I'm sure well then why not just say it like it's such a Cold Case at this point CH because you know how bad it looks for the police if the guy they talked to like five times turned out to be the Killer and they just never true it would kind of be like a PR disaster for them yeah yeah yeah all another uh big suspect is Richard uh gikow gaikowski uh gaikowski was a journalist and editor who lived in the San Francisco Bay area in the 1960s and70s near where the events of the Zodiac Killer occurred Kowski was intentionally arrested for refusing to sign a traffic citation in 1965 he wanted to write a story on the conditions of the county jail from the perspective of an inmate that is where the mug shot of him originates from however when he became a suspect of the Z murders 20 years on records of his fingerprints were long gone yeah cuz that just happens apparently that that just happens a police informant who went by the name gold catcher brought gayowski to the police's attention having worked with him previously at the Bay Area newspaper according to Gold catcher kakowski seemed to know too much about the Bay Area murders he was also an editor for the Food Times newspaper in Santa Cruz which received a letter from someone claiming to be the Zodiac killer kakowski was a trained Medic in the Army which would link to the military style boot Impressions that were found at the crime scene in Lake beresa and he could be trained in the quick removal of clothing which is present at the murder of Paul Stein where his top was removed and a piece torn off which I don't think is like a super difficult Talent by the way being able to cut clothing is kind of easy I don't think you need but he did it really efficiently you see it was it was that military undressing that professional they're good at that that's a whole that that you you learn that in boot probably Nancy SL the operator who took the call from the Zodiac in July 1969 as later said that kow's voice is the closest she has ever heard of the Zodiac's voice that night Richard Kowski died of lung cancer in 2004 age 68 yeah there's not much there apart from just the the phone operator really like all the other stuff seems really [ __ ] weird and stupid yeah I I don't put a whole lot of stock in him being one of them or of him being the Zodiac Killer I guess guess he's I guess his physical appearance is kind of more alike what the Zodiac kind of look like I think compared to arth Allen anyway but yeah there's not much evidence there to support him uh moving along here let's I want to talk about the one that I for a while thought it was but after hearing more from uh the prime suspect yeah I'm starting to lean towards maybe there be more evidence there but I thought Kane made the most sense for a while so Lawrence Kane suffered a brain injury to his left frontal lobe in 1962 after a serious car crash and doctors diagnosed him with an inability to control his urges for self-gratification and was arrested several times for being a Peeping Tom he was left with Paralysis on the left side of his face and former detective Harvey Hines was convinced Lawrence Kane was involved in the Zodiac murders after he learned that c worked in the same building as 25-year-old nurse Donna lass who was abducted in Tahoe and Hines noted a comparison between the Bay Area letters and Kane's handwriting the sister of Darlene faren one of the victims Pam Huckabee has stated that she believes Cain was following and trailing her sister in the runup to the night she was murdered 5 days after the attack C actually traded in his car for a different vehicle and Kane was also living nearby to where Paul Stein was murdered and additionally Kathleen JNS which was one of the potential zodiac victims the one that got away from the car identified Cain as her abductor and then of course the famous my name is cipher a lot believed to be decrypted saying Kane cuz it looks so close now the reason why that was so compelling to me is he fits the the height he is 58 and some change like almost 5'9 his physical appearance matches what everybody said about him like from all of the stories from the the the like accounts like even the police that may have encountered him leaving the the night of the murder of Paul all of it matches exactly what this guy looks like plus his proximity to that cab driver plus being identified by somebody even if it's not like a potential Vic even if she wasn't a victim of the zodiac like it's still all very hard to believe it's a coincidence plus being uh having a reputation of being a Peeping Tom would explain why it' always go for like teenagers at the the make out points like all of it just kind of fits that MMO not being able to control urges and all of that to me it all just also had a criminal record yeah yeah to me it all just painted this like him as someone that would very likely do this having that frontal lobe injury and like leaving him with some kind of traumatic brain injury like that would explain like maybe his spelling being all over the place and all [ __ ] disheveled and cadd wus and maybe he really did have like this split personality type thing where he just had this monster inside of him that he couldn't control it's just one of those things where everything about this guy sounds like what the zodiac killer would be to me but there's just not enough real evidence there that makes him like more convincing than Arthur Lee Allen unfortunate well not unfortunately but like Arthur Lee Allen has a lot more evidence backing it it's just Lawrence kan's situation makes more sense for the murders to you yeah yeah to me yeah to me something something that I just know noted while reading this he was left with Paralysis on the left side of his face uh I I remember during this episode that um someone described him as having a a draw like his voice had a draw like could it POS potentially be like a slur almost you know how some people after uh losing you know having Paralysis on one side of their face it that could impact speech maybe yeah it's a really good point that would it probably would have an impact on the way that he speaks that's also something that never got brought up again is that draw well he never really talked to anyone wasn't that mentioned with the the stabbing with the stabbings it's the stabbings ones which was the only case where there was a victim left who he talked to him yeah but then if it was actually him that called into the station they would recognize a draw yeah which means that it might not have been the person that the station yeah um yeah interesting but again like uh the the previous police operator said that Richard gayowski voice was the closest that she had heard did you ever hear Lawrence Kane's voice though uh yeah I would assume so like it she would have been shown all of them right I don't have confirmation on that but I I don't see why she wouldn't have been shown all of them maybe he just wasn't available for I I have no idea you're probably right though he probably would have been shown that is sayah do you want to take Rick Marshall real quick just to give because I know he's like a really popular Theory as well yeah yeah yeah just to knock it out so Rick Marshall an engineer resided in key areas during the major maity of the attacks notably he lived in a basement residence just a few miles from where Taxi Driver Paul Stein was murdered a detailed zodiac would later reference when describing the location of the bomb he claimed to be constructing Marshall's favorite movie was the red phantom and he possessed knowledge of electricity as well as being an Enthusiast of ham radio suggesting he could have technical awareness to create a bomb and if you'll remember that last letter that got sent to the police in 1974 that's debated if it was Zodiac killer or not uh signed it as the red phantom however Ken Naro a lead investigator concluded that Marshall was not a viable suspect Additionally the fingerprints held on file of the killer including the bloody fingerprints left on the taxi cab did not match those of Rick Marshall uh Marshall was interviewed by Crimes of the century in 1983 saying quote I must have a double floating around I hope the poor guy doesn't look like me but the fact is the characteristics you just mentioned fit me almost to a te I really am startled at at the mass and accuracy of the detail and obviously if they had been that forthcoming about that at the time I would have understood why they were investigating me my innocence not withstanding the details do fit I I feel like this isn't the Zodiac Killer cuz he's like wow you're right that does sound like me maybe I did do it yeah he's almost convincing himself like did kill those people damn I'm a [ __ ] fiend what what I'm sorry guys yeah he's like weirdly polite about it take me away I deserve it like he's crying at the police's feet I must have done it one more suspect I wanted to mention that I wanted to take some more time to read about before we mentioned him in the episode is someone named Gary post so a lot of you probably remember last year there were a bunch of like news articles and headlines with titles like the Zodiac Killer's been identified or like finally after 50 years the killer revealed uh those are insane exaggerations the killer was not definitively identified instead a group of people called the code Breakers who are a bunch of like um retired police or detectives who worked on the case before their retirement they determined that they believe Gary post to be the killer which is still pretty you know some something to be taken into account that's pretty serious accusations uh but that doesn't mean they've 100% identified the killer but anyway yeah Gary post was a former Airman uh he has a long long history of violence uh there are people who lived with him after he moved from California and live for a while in Upstate New York uh who said that he was incredibly violent he'd kill animals just for fun he's believed to be responsible in some other killings in other parts of the country he's his own cane of worms to get into uh he's also dead now he died in 2018 but the reasons that the code Breakers consider him to be the Killer is partial DNA uh that was found on one of the zodiac letters matches two Garry's again only partially uh the way partial DNA works is if you don't have a whole sequence it can narrow down the results of who you're looking for but I can't find information as to exactly how partial that DNA was so it could be a match for like half the population or you know 10% the population or some big number um the other reason is his perpetu his uh his need for violence a lot of people attribute that basically after all the information I get why people consider him to maybe be the Zodiac Killer also apparently the name Gary works for a lot of the ciphers within the actual uh the the actual zodiac ciphers so that's pretty good evidence right that the killer's name might be Gary uh but also that's been debated by other people who say it only works if you kind of make it work and it doesn't you know exactly apply but anyway basically there's a lot of debate as to if Gary post is it or not if you saw the headline saying the Killer's been identified that's who they're talking about I just wanted to mention him because now because of all those headlines a lot of people think Gary post is the Killer and while I get that and there's people far more qualified than you know ourselves who have said that I still think Le Allen's the best guy for it I still place my cards there uh but yeah Gary post is definitely someone worth mentioning uh yeah that's that's all of the biggest I think that's all of the biggest suspects in the case um there were there were like 2,500 other people that the police were investigating but these ones are always the biggest names that are brought up when talking about it personally I'm on I'm on the Lee Allen train I just there's just so many different elements there that just add up to him being the Zodiac Killer to me uh other than that I think the only other possibility for me cuz I don't buy I don't really buy the other three maybe a little bit Lawrence came but not so much as Allen the only other thing is that it's just someone that completely went by unnoticed by the police and hasn't been brought up at all I think that's entirely possible as well yeah yeah that is definitely possible I don't know I think I think the Zodiac Killer like I like we talked about I think he gets too much for being like an Einstein level genius but he did know how much he could get away with I think he killed a few people probably the first five attempted to kill seven and then from there he just starts gloating taunting and he gets the attention that he wants I do think Lee Allen's the most likely possibility which explains why he the Zodiac Killer completely shut up after Lee Allen went to jail but despite all of that it is wildly frustrating that he never got if that is the case it's wildly frustrating that he never got payment for it in this life you know like he he was never prosecuted or anything I will say the one detail that kind of shuns me away a bit is if Lee Allen was a sexual pervert like you know but he got you know fired for like touching kids why wasn't any of that seen in the killings yeah you would think he would act out sexually as well yeah yeah he tied up women completely defenseless stabbed them and then for everything we know did nothing to them before after they were dead so I don't I don't know maybe it was just children that he was fascinated in um so maybe he just won the attention of the killings and then that's where his sick fantasies came out at maybe that's why he talked about school buses um I I don't know but that that is the one thing that kind of makes me squint a bit at it but I still do think Lee Allen's the most likely I know that Gary post a lot of people have faith in him but that's using one of the biggest problems about this case is I think there is a world where we've correctly identified the Zodiac Killer if we took better care of evidence because all of the evidence that is on file has been Torn to Pieces uh there are investigators from around the country who were requesting pieces of the evidence so they could research the case themselves for fun I guess uh it it was so there's cases of after police retire from the Department they would take little pieces of evidence is like souvenirs everything was so horribly kept together that by the time there were advancements in forensics that maybe we could get an old sample and tell everything was way too muddled to make heads or tails of it so I understand out of the forensics we do have like people Bank on Gary post being the Killer and I get that but I don't think the evidence we do have of that is enough to take me off of the Lee Allen train and I also think it's really frustrating that the police incompetence then let him get away with it and police incompetence up until today lets him continue to get away with it um yeah it's a frustrating case especially spellings I hate that guy yeah he's dead I mean they're they're all dead I think all the prime suspects are at this point he's he's almost certainly dead yeah yeah oh yeah I I definitely think that the Zodiac Killer Is Dead which means we'll never conclusively know who the Zodiac Killer is which is the most disappointing aspect of this whole puzzle to me is that we'll never get like a concrete answer I don't think we will I don't think we'll ever see it sadly what's Wild is like a lot of these cases these high-profile cases again like the unibomber or like dmer or stuff like that it's like they go on for so long and it's normally some gigantic mistake that's made that leads to them getting caught or it's something that never could have been accounted for like the guy's brother ratting him out to the police right um it's frustrating how these people can get away with it you know yeah so easily or at least they could before you know modern tech yeah I was going to say I think this is like the last case of that because with the way Mass surveillance Works currently there's no way I don't think there would be a Zodiac killer in the Modern Age yeah good luck you you would have I mean like there are killers who get away with it but it takes you have to be so far removed from society you have to be so like it it takes a lot more effort than it did back in the 60s well no I don't think there could be a Zodiac killer in the sense that I don't think you'd be able to send in letters to the oh no absolutely them like this they would find the microfibers of the stamp and find your home address no shot that would fly yeah they they'd have surveillance footage of every like the person putting the letter in the Box basically when sending it off like there's no way yeah they'd be able to get you pretty good like like I said kazinsky was in the 9s and they were like using his stamps to like find microfibers of tree samples to figure out out what region of the country's in 2024 you're you're toast you're not getting away with it no way yeah so I think the zodiac is the last of his his kind really which is good uh Charlie do you have any final thoughts uh nothing on my end just another another great adventure with the boys here going through some awful [ __ ] another happy you know fulfilling conversation yeah I think we're all in agreeing though that it's like like the most likely suspect is Arthur Lee Allen but yeah I also don't feel bad uh saying that because he was at least definitely a child molester right so who cares throw whatever you want on his name Yeah Yeah Yeah official statement of the red thread we don't like him if you're going to attribute it to someone it may as well be the child molesta right yeah yeah that's a safe out yeah who who for some reason had bomb instructions in his basement but whatever whatever for some reason yeah um all right that's going to do it for this week's episode of The Red Thread we really appreciate you guys all hanging out with us and listening to this just disappointing information really it sucks but at least we had fun while we did it um and we hope you guys had fun at home or you listened in if you're listening on Spotify uh just a reminder like if you follow it and rate it that's really appreciated definitely helps out with discoverability on Spotify so lots of thanks to everyone who does that and lots of thanks to everyone for just listening in general you it it means so much to us and we really appreciate it we have a blast doing this it's a lot of fun so we hope that comes across to you guys and you guys enjoy it as well um that's it for me if you guys want to say anything else uh thanks everybody yeah yeah thank you all so much for being here I'm having a ton of fun with the show and it means a lot to see you guys show up and support it so thank you we we can't say say thank you enough means a lot yeah thank you and [ __ ] Lee Allen for all that child relation [ __ ] and also possibly being the Zodiac killing but mainly the child stuff yeah all right thanks guys we'll see you next time thanks everyone byebye [Music] by [Music]