I believe strongly that there is a ton of evidence that not all calories are created equally look at the data in the United States we eat the highest consumption of processed foods where we the most the Beast so they came out recently and said that there is not enough evidence to say that Ultra processed foods contribute to obesity in humans what calories in calories out means for weight loss and I thought okay this is really interesting there are studies looking at markers of metabolic syndrome and the studies would suggest that 88 to 93% of the US population have at least one marker of metabolic dysfunctions calories are King you know calories are what make you fat or make you lean yes and no I want people to know it's not that complicated if we just understand that the negative effects of ultra processed foods are Amplified and the positive effects of unprocessed foods are Amplified in our physiology and if we just simply ultimate human hey guys welcome back to the ultimate human podcast I'm your host human biologist Gary Brea where we go down the road of everything anti-aging biohacking longevity and everything in between and a very very close friend of mine um who's usually in Costa Rica hit me up last week and was like Hey I'm gonna be in Miami and I I was like well you definitely got to come by the house we'll do breakfast together we'll you know um we'll do some videos you know we'll we we'll pick pick a couple of topics and and we'll put them out on social media and we we'll do some educational things and we um as always just started eating each other's face and we're doing a bunch of biohacking today we did sauna and and and red light and cold plunging and uh little little bit of a light workout some breath work and had a big raw food breakfast this morning and um uh and and we were out on the balcony and we were talking about seed oils and and then we started having this really interesting conversation about calories um are all calories the same are all calories equal um is a calorie a cal calorie whether it comes from fat or carbohydrate or proteins um does calories in and calories out matter as the only measure of what's going to improve your metabolism or cause you to lose weight I mean there's an oversimplification in his opinion um that the data might indicate otherwise and so I said look this is something the world needs to know about I've got a podcast room in the other room so let's just go in there and run a 20 minute um you know short podcast and let's talk about calories in calories out why um a calorie is a calorie is a calorie may not actually be the case um when it comes to human physiology so I want you to welcome my good friend and well-known podcaster author speaker extraordinaire and biohacker to the extreme Dr Paul saladino thanks for having me on again dude I'm I'm so I'm I'm pumped that you're here like every time I see you we just eat each other's face I know um so many good conversations and so many so much information to share bring great gifts dude honey coconuts cheres yeah that what was the name of the honey that you brought me today was marola honey so it's sting bee it's honey from stingless bees called marola bees dude I am telling you guys um if if you're a honey fanatic even if you're not this was like liquid beautiful gold I mean it was so good um I've had i' I've had three bowls of it um so far just since you got here but you know um I challenge you to transform your life in just 3 days join my 3-day Cal plunge Challenge and experience the incredible benefits of cold water therapy for 3 minutes each day immerse yourself in cold water and feel the difference cold punching can boost your energy improve your mental Clarity and enhance your mood it's easy to join so head over to the ultimate human.com download the plunge app track your progress and connect with our community let's do this together now let's get back to the ultimate human podcast there so many things that we could talk about you know we're having a great um debate about seed oils earlier out on the balcony and um and then we started this conversation about um calories in calories out and how there's an oversimplification in in my opinion in the market about calories in General so talk to me a little bit about the research that you've been digging into lately on calories so I was mentioning to you that on Twitter um Kevin Hall Whose study we'll mention in a second posted something from the US governmental dietary guidelines committee and they there there's an entity I really trust I know right that's super trust already I'm SRE but us diet AR guidelines committee these are the people who made the 2020 to 2025 us dietary guidelines they shape food lunches they shape food stamps they shape a lot of things in our country you know not everyone is accepting what they say is Canon but it affects policy in the United States and then they're they're about to make the 2025 to 2030 guidelines for our country's health foods and these are the people who brought you the infamous super healthy food pyramid you know etc etc right Lucky Charms exactly well yeah so they came out recently and said that there is not enough evidence to say that Ultra processed foods contribute to obesity in humans we need more research guys we don't know and I thought okay this is really interesting this is and and Elon Musk commented on this tweet he said calories cause obesity calories your king and I thought okay this is an interesting jumping off point two things I want to mention about this the first is I hope that this isn't the US dietary guidelines committee sort of giving thems licensed to include more Ultra processed foods in the GU in in the dietary guidelines because I think this is very confusing and this is Insidious for us as Americans because I think it's really important that we understand what calories in calories out means for weight loss and I believe strongly that there is a ton of evidence that not all calories are created equally and what I mean by this is if you really look at the data and Kevin Hall who retweeted this has actually done a great study on this in a metabolic Ward a completely controlled study looking at humans who were fed fed certain foods and they they were completely control everything they were fed was controlled they were in the hospital and what they did in Kevin Hall study was they gave people the same amount of calories for every meal they presented the same amount of calories and one group of people got Ultra processed foods and one group of people got unprocessed Foods so people got Ultra processed foods and they presented the same calories they matched for fat carbohydrate protein salt they matched for as many things as they could but one group of people got ultr processed calories and one group of people got unprocessed calories so one group of people is getting like salad and fish or chicken maybe some beef maybe some grains that are unprocessed and the other group is getting more processed versions of all these things a McChicken sandwich a fish filla sandwich or McDonald's you know chips and what they found and this was an ad lib study so they let people eat as much as they want so they gave them a certain amount of food and then they looked to see how hungry people were and the study was two weeks long I believe and over those two weeks not surprisingly the people on the ultr processed food diet ate an average of 500 calories more per day remember Dr hman talking about this it was the it was the lack of saity and and the hunger response was significantly more intense and they not only ate more food more calories and gained more weight but they also reported being hungry or faster yes I I I I didn't read it to the depth that you did but I did did gloss over it and and I think this is opening up a really interesting conversation because you know I I've long since held the position that some of the worst research we do on human beings is when we study things in isolation yeah right so they we say okay let's deprive this person of calories put them in a caloric deficit and they lost weight so the way to lose weight is to go into a caloric deficit which I which I agree with um and then this myth in my opinion emerged that um a calorie is a calorie is calorie so you could eat a th th calories of donuts or you could eat a th000 calories of grass-fed meat or you could eat 1 th000 calories of you know soda water and or soda and it doesn't matter because those are just calories and see here's the proof because we gave these people that drank nothing but soda and ate Donuts but only ate 1,500 calories a day they lost weight sure so see they lost weight and they're eating Ultra processed High carbohydrate sugary foods but we're not looking then at Downstream consequences what are the consequences on inflammation what are the consequences on hormones what are the consequences on on Hunger satiety all of these things so I'd love to hear your comments on that yeah this is exactly it and it's the idea that not all calories are created equally right a th000 calories of donuts are not going to have the same physiologic responses in my body as a th calories of ribey and we know this to be true there are plenty of studies that show us this a thousand calories of donuts we know that's going to make me hungrier sooner which in real life not in a study where they're limiting people and they're only giving them a certain amount of food in real life makes me hungry and it makes me crave food or it makes me just it can have other physiologic effects you mentioned hormones it can potentially affect anthelio function at the level of our blood vessels mood mood emotion yeah emotion whether we sleep whether we're on a computer or doing things that are going to affect us in terms of ciran rhythms and so what was interesting was that you know Elon Musk responds to this comment from Kevin Hall saying that diine the dietary guidelines says ultr processed foods we're not sure they really cause obesity kind of opening the door yeah for Coca-Cola and these ultr processed food companies which by the way spend millions of dollars a year lobbying Congress right right to have some sort of uh get out of jail free card in the in the health space or from the government to be included in like food stamps projects you know you can buy Ultra processed food with food stamps that's insane it's crazy right and so this is how it all kind of works that the dietary guidelines committee can say well we're not completely sure that the calories from Ultra processed food are uniquely obesogenic and then you have studies like Kevin Hall saying well they're definitely making people hungrier and they're definitely not full of the same nutrients that a Stak is and they're definitely full of more pesticides more oxidized oils more gut disrupting compounds preservatives preservatives yeah there so how can you not it's just it's crazy to me that we don't understand this and I wanted to just I I wanted to respond to like elon's tweet and say because Elon said calories are King you know calories are what make you fat or make you yes and no so this is we go round and round you know we chase our tales about this calories in calories out and yes you're right and this is what the proponents of calories in calories out model say you can lose weight eating junk food you can absolutely lose weight eating junk food but will you keep that weight off longterm will you be satiated will you be hungry what will your mood be what will your hormones do what will your blood vessels look like how inflamed will you be overall long term and those are not the same and the reason I want to think it's so important to talk about is because I want people to know it's not not that complicated it's really pretty simple yeah if we just understand that Ultra processed foods are going to have a reverberating effect in our physiology they're going to be the negative effects of ultr processed foods are Amplified and the positive effects of unprocessed foods are Amplified in our physiology and if we just simply kind of discard all the tribalism around which foods are best and we focus on unprocessed animal and plant Foods at the exclusion of ultra processed foods realizing I probably shouldn't eat 00 calories of Doritos today because that's going to have an amplified negative effect bigger than those 500 calories in my physiology right you know if I exclude as many Ultra processed foods as possible and I just eat unprocessed meat and plant Foods you're going to lose weight you're going to feel better you're going to get healthier that's what the message should be and the fact that the US dietary guidelines committee can't take that stand and that that that even Elon is a little confused or doesn't understand this and that there are a lot of people in the health space who want to amplify the message that you can lose weight eating Donuts drives me crazy and I'll mention one more study also so I talked about the study from Kevin Hall but there's another study and this is a pilot study so it's a small study of eight people but they gave people a an alic acid Rich meal alic acid is a an is a mono unsaturated fat prominent in Tallow or olive oil and they gave people a linolic acid Rich meal that's an 18 carbon polyunsaturated fat prominent in seed oils okay so linolic this is another whole argument that people are like seed oils aren't bad for you processed industrial processed seed oils are not bad for you they're not causing inflammation there's no signs that you know these have negative consequences I see that all over I know it's social media yeah it's frustrating um so they gave people these two meals right and what they found they actually looked at two hormones gin which is kind of a hunger hormone it's anti-y and resistan and we know that as levels of resistant rise in human body we get more insulin resistance and so the levels of gin and levels of resistant were higher when they gave people a linolic acid Rich meal so this is a small study but yes it's a small study but it is a study in humans it is a controlled trial in humans and we need bigger trials showing that linolic acid Rich meals may make us hungrier and more insulin resistant and this is just to um emphasize this concept that not all calories are created equally these are equal caloric Meals one of them has 18 carbon monounsaturated fat alic acid one of them has carbon polyunsaturated fat linolic acid they're supposed to both be 9 calories per gram but this linolic acid Rich meal again linolic acid rich in is usually found in seed oils things like corn canola sunflower safflower soybean is making people hungrier it's changing the hormonal profile and it's also causing damage to the endothelial lining which is the Genesis of the cardiovascular disease that we blame on cholesterol right cholesterol is at the scene of the crime not pulling the trigger but very often it's there because it's trying to repair damage so I think with that it's like you know we used to think that um Alzheimer's disease was the uh presence of amalo plaques in these neurofibrillary Tangles and we're realizing now that the ameloid plaques are the byproduct of the inflammatory process right so that the the culprit is not the amalo plaque right that the culprit is the inflammatory process right and so I think you're you're getting to the root of another issue which is um are we really getting aerosis or tyos sclerosis because of cholesterol or are we getting it because of damage to the endothelial lining which there's strong evidence to indicate that insulin resistance causes this inflammatory process and that cholesterol is just being called there it's like so many gave me the analogy the other day that every time there's a fire um firemen show up yeah and and you know to put it out and uh and so we're not blaming the firemen for the fire are we because they're actually there to try to put the fire out and it's kind of like what happens to you know when there's damage to the endothelial wall to the to the to lining of the artery um you know the fireman show up the cholesterol shows up and and we're like we need to keep the cholesterol down right yeah and so like we need to suppress the firemen and fires will stop happening yeah it's interesting and if people are confused about seed oils because there's a lot of conflicting data yes I would say look at the data regarding seed oil consumption and oxidized LDL so LDL is low density Li protein it's this quote unquote bad cholesterol obviously that's an oversimplification but it's pretty darn clear from multiple randomized control trials in humans that when you feed humans seed oils versus olive oil versus butter we get more oxidation of LDL that is very very difficult to argue that point so I do not know how individuals in the health space can argue and and and tell tell my listeners like what is o ized LDL mean right right is that so bad yeah LDL is is low density lipoprotein it's like a balloon or a bus that floats around our bodies and moves moves cholesterol and triglycerides so it's it's a ball and it's a transporter it's a transporter it's a ball it's it has a membrane and the membrane is full of phospholipids and the membrane is full of cholesterol and the membrane is full of proteins and when LDL becomes oxidized it means that the phospholipids in the membrane have become oxidized and oxidation is is akin to rust right you can think about rust as oxidation technically oxidation is loss of electrons when a molecule loses an electron it begins a free radical type Cascade in the case of lipids we call this lipid peroxidation and these are lipid peroxides that get formed in the membranes of our cells or in the membrane of an LDL particle a low density lip protein particle so now I've taken an LDL particle um I've oxidized it so I've damaged its phospholipid Bayer right and now what is that damage causing just because the phospholipid Bayer is Rusted um now what's the next consequence of that so when when electrons are stolen from the phospholipids in the membrane there's a chain reaction and eventually that free radical Cascade that lipid peroxidation reaction damages the proteins on the surface of the LDL and when the proteins of the surface of the LDL are oxidized they look differently and then we know pretty clearly from medical studies that that makes the LDL particles look like foreign Invaders and your maccrage is the immune cells that live in your body but also live in your Arial walls are more likely to take up that LDL molecule and form the beginning of an atherosclerotic plaque which is called a foam cell or you know a fatty or a fatty streak so maccrage is more likely to ingest LDL particles when the LDL is oxidized that's how atherosclerosis begins so oxidized LDL is probably you know potentially making this LDL more atherogenic or I would say atherogenic denovo from the beginning because as you say I also don't believe that the case that LDL is atherogenic in and of itself is is is shut yet I don't think it's very clear right I think that LDL low density level protein is moving cholesterol and triglycerides around the body and it is at the scene of an atherosclerotic plaque like you say like firemen but that doesn't mean that it causes it because there's and the ones that are at the scene are these usually the oxidized versions of of LDL very often within the plaque right yeah because because you know what what you're getting to is that not all ldls created equally maybe it's all equally but not all LDL is the same not all LDL is the same and you can change your LDL based on what you eat right you know you can change the size you can change the membrane composition you can make your LDL more likely to oxidize right when you eat seed oils and then once it oxidizes it's more likely to be the culprit of pling now why is that does it increase how sticky it is um is it um more likely to Clump and and and stick together in group and narrow the artery I don't think we fully know it could be that so this is all sort of not fully fleshed out within the lipid space it could be that there's there's a lot of changes that can happen to LDL that damage LDL you can get dilated LD dilated you know LDL you can get oxidized LDL you can get all sorts of changes but basically I would say high level it looks like LDL is this particle that moves around your body carrying substrate carrying building blocks and it probably moves in and out of your arterial wall on its own naturally because it has to deliver things mhm but if your LDL is more likely to oxidize then it's possible and again this is all sort of hypothesis we don't fully have this worked out within lipidology that the LDL that's more likely to oxidize Gets Stuck In Your Vessel wall and when it gets stuck in your vessel wall on a proteoglycan matrix inside of your arterial wall then it's oxidized and then the macrophages come and clean it up because it's a it's a foreign looking particle and that's how you get atheros scalotic pla forming so native LDL LDL that's not oxidized it's it's not an easy case to make that that is actually atherogenic or injurious to the endothelium but oxidized without endothelial damage I don't know that you have aerosis I would say that you don't yeah if you look at where atherosclerosis starts um you know it's it it starts in in you know in and around the heart usually and why would it concentrate there well it concentrates there because there's more more turbulence and more damage to the endothelium but we can get atherosclerosis other places sometimes people get it in the the bifurcations of the the femoral Aries but we do get atherosclerosis in places there tends to be more turbulent stress denuding the endium and I think that individuals who are insulin resistant metabolically unhealthy they don't repair those wounds as well I think you and I all of humans are getting endothelial damage that's just part of being a human you have this you have this delicate layer of endothelium lining your arteries and you have pressure in your arteries is very high 120 millim of mercury is a lot of pressure every time your heart pumps yeah right and so you're going to strip that endothelium even in a healthy individual and I think that my theory I think the hypothesis here would be that in a healthy individual you can repair that just like you scratch your knee you know you repair it but in a diabetic somebody that's metabolically unwell the repair of the endothelium is delayed or it's impaired we know that wound healing is impaired in diabetics and so this is why I believe diabetics have more of a predeliction to atherosclerosis because they skin their knee and sometimes you have to amputate the leg right you know I mean diabetics you know when I was working in the hospital you would see diabetics come in and you would do foot inspections on diabetics because sometimes they don't even see they have a little cut on their foot so a diabetic can like stub their toe and they might lose their whole foot because the infection becomes so rampant they don't know it's there and wound healing is so impaired so when we become insulin resistant also known as metabolic dysfunction I think that we're probably just not repairing the endothelium we're all skinning our knees we're all getting some denuding of the endothelium but we're not repairing it as well in diabetics so we come back to square one how do you prevent atherosclerosis don't be diabetic yeah don't be diabetic don't be metabolically unhealthy let your body repair it and so I think that what's happening probably is that diabetics people with metabolic dysfunction which is a spectrum right of metabolic dysfunction you're getting some damage to the endothelial wall and this could be from cigarette smoke secondhand smoke could be from diesel exhaust probably alcohol could do it yeah lipop polysaccharide might be involved endotoxin lots of things seed oils yes lots of things can damage the endothelium and it's it's all about how well you repair it and if you're not repairing it well then yes it's possible that LDL could get involved and become connected to that protean layer in the arterial wall it's more likely to get oxidized if you're eating a bunch of seed oils macres come pick it up make a foam cell making a fatty streak and atherosclerosis there it goes there you go so I'll give you this one thing and then I'll pause I think about LDL like wood and wood is valuable but you wood doesn't make a fire on its own no right wood is valuable because you can build a house out of it and we know that LDL has valuable roles in the human body it has immune roles LDL participates in the immune response it moves precursors for hormones around our body yes precursor for coloc calciferol exactly and it actually can bind up LPS in the human body and decrease it along with other lipo proteins so it protects us from injury yeah wood is valuable and if you live in a place where you don't have a lot of Sparks coming out of your oven and you're not like hammering metal and doing things with lots of fires having a bunch of wood in your Woodshed is great it's valuable for you but if you're in in a house like like if you're in a forge and you're you know you're making iron and you're flying Sparks everywhere having a bunch of wood sitting around is going to give you more atherosclerosis it's going to give you more fires you know more LDL in the setting of Sparks which is I'm drawing a metaphor with inflammation or metabolic dysfunction could look like it's causing more fires but it's just a substrate it's involved it's in the causal Cascade but it's not causing the issue you need Sparks to make a fire wood doesn't spontaneously combust right yeah no very very true um so just to round this out you know and get back to our calories in calories out um where do you stand on the calories and car calories out Theory so you can lose weight eating anything it's been proven you can lose weight eating twinkies and I think that's the detriment I think that's where you know the pundits uh you know get us and they go yeah if you ate two Donuts a day you'd lose weight you can lose weight yeah but we know from studies there's so many studies that show this that caloric restriction more than 85 90% of the time fails long term because you get adaptive thermogenesis your thyroid metabolism yeah your thyroid turns down your metabolism I mean look at the Biggest Loser TSH drops yeah right look at the Biggest Loser they all gain the weight back plus more so calories in calories out works in the short term and fails in the long term and I think that the really the only strategy that I've seen that's successful people to lose weight long term is to improve food quality because that's how you get satiety right you improve food quality you need less Ultra processed foods and the dietary guidelines committee needs to just check check themselves because they're they're absolutely crazy to say that that we don't know that obesity is caused by processed foods you can't leave that door open because then look at look at the data in the United States we eat the highest consumption of processed foods and we're we're the most obese and I know that you're correlation just correlation yeah um you know it's like uh we also do the highest number of randomized clinical trials and and in healthcare we did 150,000 of them since 2008 and and so you see the byproduct of taking randomized clinical trials and just applying that narrow science to an entire populace yeah right and it's it's crazy and so I think that yes you can lose weight if you want to restrict calories but I think that if you want to get healthier that will be nearly impossible to achieve unless you improve food quality so I think the we should not be thinking about calories in calories out we should be thinking about how good how how how high quality can I make my food and if that sounds like a NE nebulous concept to people just think unprocessed meat beef chicken fish lamb pork eggs you know cheese milk preferably raw like unprocessed animal foods and unprocessed plant Foods shop around the outside of the grocery store right just don't just don't do ultr processed foods and then that's that's this key to success because I think that if you think calories then you're just going to say I can eat this pizza today and I'm going to eat less calories tomorrow but I want people to understand like my the problem I have with that is it's very difficult for us to quantify or qualify how the negative effects of that ultr processed food reverberate throughout our physiology and that's where calories and calories out fails the qualities of calories in can affect calories out it can affect your metabolism it can affect your satiety the downstream consequences we we used to see this in the mortality space you know pushing LDL cholesterol down because it was linked to cardiovascular disease but not realizing that it's also um for lack of better words a construction material that's used to build cell walls cell membranes hormones you know vitamin D3 so now if you if you if you remove construction material from the job site doesn't matter how good your contractor is they're not going to assemble anything without the construction material and the body is no different you know it has it has to make cell walls it has to make cell membranes it has to make hormones and it it makes vitamin D3 from from sunlight and cholesterol and if you deprived of those resources you get other Downstream consequences and if the study didn't look at those things um then uh you know you would just draw the conclusion and that well it's it it's bad um because people with um uh you know higher cholesterol have these higher rates of cardiovascular disease but maybe it's because people with higher cholesterol are having the endothelial damaging things like the the oxidation and and what have you that actually leads to the damage that is calling the cholesterol there I agree there are studies looking at markers of metabolic syndrome there's one from a few years ago and more and more recently and the studies would suggest that 8 to 93% of the US population have at least one marker of metabolic dysfunction so if we have a population in the United States where 85% plus of people have at least they're on the spectrum of of insulin resistance it's not surprising that LDL might look like it quote causes atherosclerosis but there are so many studies now that generally get ignored by people in the apob causes atherosclerosis camp that show a discordance between apob levels and atherosclerosis so I think that the it's but and again like it's causal until it's not exactly it's causal it's causal unless you're healthy right right you know and maybe some of the behaviors you do that are healthy might actually raise your apob like eating grass-fed meat and eating less seed oils that's going to raise your apob and so this is where I really run into problems here with the ideology it's I think that unless we really help people and we're very precise about the way we describe cholesterol and Cardio vascular disease risk in terms of a context people are just going to be confused I can't tell you how often I get DMS saying I'm eating an animal- based diet I'm eating meat and I'm eating organs and I'm eating fruit and I feel great and I've lost weight and my di diabetes is better but I went to my doctor and they said my LDL is high and I need a Statin and it's just like there's no context here right and if you if you don't you know you don't have to look much further than the side effects of statens to understand the benefits of you know in terms of there signal for potentially increased dementia potentially diabetes I mean I can tell you because I worked as a PA so before I was a doctor I was a physician assistant in cardiology and I worked in cardiology the idea that 3% like fizer says of people get side effects from statins is bunk it's more like 30% from what I've seen in my clinical practice and I saw hundreds of patients and the a lot of them get side effects from stattin so it's the whole a the cholesterol piece is probably one of the single greatest hurdles for people getting heal healthy because we have not described it properly because I think the Paradigm is wrong because most at least if people are listening to what I'm saying or listening to what you're saying people are going to eat more meat and they're going to e less seed oils and in 40 to 60% of people that my raise ail B and so there's just there's so many roadblocks people are putting up for people actually getting healthier and becoming you know more vibrant individuals because we're not thinking about calories properly we're not thinking about apob properly and these are nuanced complicated discussions hopefully that helps people understand the Contex I think it does I think it does man and I really appreciate you coming on we ran a little bit over the time but I mean I I just no no no no and and I'm and I'm so interested I actually am I've got 50 other questions that I want to ask and the audience is probably uh really interested so you will come back on right okay so um next time you're in Miami we're definitely going to run another full full podcast but um for for those um folks that uh don't know you and and would like to find out more about you or your books or or your supplement line how can they find you I met Paul saladino MD on every platform okay Paul saladino MD on every platform he has unbelievable line of products organ um organ meats and um um you know dissected uh um dried organ meats that that are that are in a capsule form if you don't like to eat raw liver that's heart and soil heart and soil and lineage is our newest company uh and we make grass-fed beef sticks with organs and we just released an all in out a testicle called the whole package that's a Harden soil yeah we don't make beef sticks with not beef sck out of testic but capes testical capsules actually really help you know it's interesting you would think testic capsul would be gross taste the reviews on that one are amazing we can do a whole another podcast on orans next time amazing yeah like the um the benefits of organs for humans are incredible and that's a whole separate podcast probably related to like micro rnas or something but they seem uniquely beneficial for humans and that's why we built hardened soil just to make them easy to get so and you've been sending me some great research where which I've been digging into lately on um I want the cat out of the bag but Target specific or um organ supplementation for Target specific organ results and it's very interesting I'm not ready to comment on it yet but I've been been reading a lot of what you sent me it's very very eye opening so guys um I hope you enjoyed this podcast follow Paul saladino check him out um look look for his supplements heart and soil and as always that's just science