there's a narrative that's going on at the moment in the retail space of like the market is predictable using an algorithm and therefore we break down the algorithm into technical analysis and that's why people are getting maybe overly confident to the point where they start to predict the markets saw one of your podcasts where a guy said I will tell you how HSBC changed and I literally spat my drink out and laugh technical analysis is used by analysts at Banks to paint St stories to put in reports to send out to clients the technical analysis for me waste of time cuz you're not going to predict future price movements you don't know where the Market's going to move from ahead of the time time is of no consequence it is all about price and value all markets are split up into ranges so specific prices that's where you want to be trading from that's where you know investment Banks want to be trading from for themselves for their own speculation um everything else kind of in between is just commercial business or speculation by other people I think thing that retail Traders really don't grasp [Music] is the number one podcast in the trading space the fastest growing and that's thanks to every single one of you hey guys before we get into this incredible episode of words of wisdom I want to let you know how you can get a free trading plan P very simple go in the link below you're going to see two links one for telegram there you'll get free mindset hacks a free technical course free updates and polls on the podcast and then the other link is our new email newsletter click that link sign up you'll get a free trading plan PDF sent directly to you and get incredible value all week long let's get into this episode welcome everyone back to the words of wisdom podcast still the number one trading podcast in the world the fastest growing and the largest thanks to all of you and our incredible guests talking which we have an absolute veteran with us today 30 years of experience in the trading game and I know we're going to get a lot of insights not only into his trading but also all the experience and changes we've seen within this industry over those 30 years and we are joined by the one and only Paul Scott afternoon nice to meet you nice to meet you as well it's my absolute pleasure it's great to have you with us thank you and I think the best place to start is really just to give an insight to the listeners of you know where You' worked and and the sort of experience you've held over those 30 years yes that's been a long time but um yeah I started out in 1994 um my very first job was with my dad so my dad was a Trader on the London Metal Exchange a copper and nickel Trader for God at least 25 years um and I'd left school at the age of 16 and he gave me about a month off and then he grabbed me by to the PS one day and he said right my son what are you going to do with the rest of your life and I went I don't know I'm 16 I've got no no idea um he said right you're going to come work with me and come down get some experience and then I'll try and find you a job with you know another broker or bank and so I was with him for about three or four months um learning the ropes got down to the first day what the hell is this you know I mean I was aware that my dad was a copper Trader but I had no bloody idea what that actually really meant so we go down to the trading floor that was at fenur Street and I walk in and I'm like this world is crazy you got all these people talking in different languages like we were just speaking a minute ago you know contango and bations and spreads and I was like I just so overwhelmed do you know what I mean so it got to the end of the first day and he was like what do you reckon then I was like Jesus I'll never get I'll never get to hang of this in a million years and he that's exactly what I said on the first day because it's just it's not like real life it's it's insane and so stayed with him like I say about three or four months um the market then moved to LEL street so going into LEL Street get a job credit l in ail um the guy that employs me Peter choley uh basically there the day I was born you know Mom still got a picture in the you know photo album he was there the day I was born and I walk in to credit Lon I'd already know you know got to know the people there and stuff like that working on the trading floor but then walked in and I'm in there about I don't know 10 or 15 minutes and he goes Scotty yes Pete he goes coffee room so I walked out to the coffee room and then he turns around to me and he goes look I don't give a [ __ ] who son you are I know I was there the day you were born but you've got three months if you don't get it you're gone because I need people on this desk that understand what's going on there's lots of money kind of you know flying around and you need to be basically on the ball so I was like right okay no pressure on the first day do you know what I mean no pressure on the first day um but then yeah I stayed at credit from 94 to 1998 I started out as a a market Clark as everybody does which is basically recording deals that your Traders making going around checking those deals with your counterparty um doing all that doing manual profits and losses and stuff like that which I can still do um but working out all stuff like that and then obviously being a glorified tea boy and then you go and get everybody's lunch and you do all that but you're you're a massing knowledge as you go along basically and so it gets to 1998 and the company that was too down for was credit l in a d of Sharps Pixley and then suton and I was really friendly with a guy was another one of my dad's friends go Q leanu um and he's an old tonian I mean the most beautiful guy I mean AB honestly the most beautiful guy and he says to me Scotty dear boy he said I want you to come and work for me on the options desk at suan and I was like right I know nothing about options here and he went no no no no don't worry about it he said we we'll teach you as you go along so I said okay and he saids so how much do you earn and so I told him and he went okay give you another 10 grand so I was like okay you know okay sounds good to me um get there and um sits me down on the options desk and you know again I was there for about 3 months learning about options um not as complex as I are today but learning about the options market and then one of the guys left sugden's other desk the metals desk uh and then a guy who's probably one of the best ever Traders on the London Metal Exchange guy called Chris Adams he then says to Hugh right can I take Paul off of you cuz we need somebody to come down the floor um again uh by this time i' passed my regulatory exam so this time I'm now I'm allowed to speak to clients offer advice trade on behalf of um and so he takes me down there and so then I'm what's known as client the aison so then I'm client the aison and then I do that with Chris I become head clerk I'm doing client the aison uh again trading upstairs um nickel Market Jay McDonald um so that was sort of my first foray into the trading sort of side of things was Jay took me under his wing and we used to trade nickel and from there I go and do that and then within suden again there's another guy called IA house he says to me I want you to come and work for me he had a bloke that he was working with a guy called Mark I can't remember his last name but Mark had left and then IA says to me right I want you to come and work for me how much you earning I said this he goes right I'll give you another 10 grand and I'm like okay so that was a desk within suden but we had to pay for our own desk if that makes sense yeah so you had margins to cover each month and so then when I get with IA there not just LM it's not just Metal Exchange this is now Metal Exchange this is precious metals this is um currencies this is oil this is soft Commodities and me that just opened up like this whole raft of other things but when you get there and you're looking at it you're like right hold on a minute this is all just the same different markets have slightly different terminology and contract specifications but it's all exactly the same doesn't matter what it is so for me in the way that I describe it to people today is like it's just one big game they're all you know all markets are understood and traded in the same way by the professional people that trade them um I think one thing that retail Traders really don't Gras is as well as these markets didn't open me you know the Advent of computing power you know they've been going a heck of a long time um the Metal Exchange itself opened in 1877 right so you got to think well how does it go from this small Market to be the biggest non-ferrous Metals Market on the planet right and it's not to do with you know things that you know retail Traders assume this is how markets work and function and so with that there it was just like wow you can trade anything it don't matter what it is it's just you know you're not limited essentially so again that's what I say to people these days is like you know look don't just think about I can only trade currencies or I can only trade this it's like look learn how the markets work learn how they function uh learn things like we just said a minute ago things like time time is is non-existent it's all about price and value so as I said you specific prices all markets are split up into ranges so specific prices that's where you want to be trading from that's where you know investment Banks want to be trading from for themselves for their own speculation and everything else kind of in between is just commercial business or speculation by other people but we then sit down and when I sort of teach people sit down and go look you can do anything you could run your own little mini hedge fund you know because once you understand or once you grasp how this works how it functions Like rules of the game essentially then you can apply that and it doesn't matter what Market you look at cuz he literally all the same and so uh after leaving suden had a bit of an argument with IA so left there um and then went on to work for some you know other PR Standard Bank so gen the txis commodity markets and stuff like that um had the financial crisis and then one morning I just woke up and went you know what I'm sick of waiting for trains that don't appear um I'm done with it and so left um did some Consulting work that was quite funny uh did some Consulting work for a company that had bought another company but then part of it this little part of it was um like a desk in a group of computer programmers basically that was for it was for an old the routing system from the Metal Exchange CU this was just now coming into what was known as lme select so that's kind of like the electronic side of the London Metal Exchange so there's this old the routing system and of course these guys here these are computer guys they got no idea what the hell you know Futures Trading is or trading is you know and so I go there and I walked into mitsui mitsui Busan and um so I walk in and they're like what the [ __ ] are you doing here and I said nice to see you fellas do you know what I mean some of them works on the floor some good mates some your dads and stuff like that and I said I'm here to do this you know this rooting system and they were like thank God we've been trying to speak to these people for ages and they just don't grasp what on Earth We're on about and I said right okay you tell me what you want and I'll go back and try and translate it as best I can into a language that they'd understand M and so anyway so we end up doing that for Toyota tudo um Mitsubishi mitui uh and Tran Metals which is that's old company um did that did a bit of metals Consulting totally fell into teaching people I mean weird going to go and play golf going to go and play a four ball and two of the boys rung up on the way they're sharing a car got a flat tire haven't got a spare haven't got the stuff that you squirt into the tire we're sitting at the side of the road waiting for the tow truck it's like great tap on the shoulder from behind this fell he goes sorry he says wasn't it Weg um we're here we could make up a four ball if you want free up another tea time for somebody else and like yeah yeah whatever and so I don't know if you play golf or whatever but you know there a lot of walking around lot of talking and as bles do it's like what do you do for a living and I said well you know currency Trader or Trader that's what I used to do for a living in the city and it's you know that's all they know how to do now blah blah and the guy says to me I trade Forex I said oh great yeah I said how you getting on he said terrible said terrible I said why it's not that difficult that's my first for into retail cuz I it wasn't even on the radar and that's not to be rude to anybody but like when you're an investment Bank retail trading forget it it's not on the radar and so we going around and he goes I got my laptop in the boot he said if I buy you a beer at the end he said could you have a look at what I'm doing and maybe give me a few pointers yeah of course so anyway so we finish up go to the clubhouse he gets his laptop out he puts it in front of me he turns it on and I was like what the [ __ ] is that right indicators everywhere look like a drunken spider had been walking across with bloody rainbows on its feet and I said what on Earth are you doing and he goes well this is what I've been taught and I was like right give us it here said right delete that and then did what I we do you know just before we started this I was like right look here's your levels that's where you want to be trading from gave him some background into it he was like Could you teach me how to do it I was like yes I suppose M um tell the m and she's like right make a website teach people show people what you know MH get out from underneath my feet basically so so that started I mean the website was Ultra basic then it's Ultra basic now I don't do social media I don't do anything like that I do podcasts on occasions and sort of try and I don't know give something as a a different point of view you know but sort of having done it and lived it for the last 30 years I literally don't know how to do anything else so it's fun and I enjoy imparting knowledge upon people some people listen to what I have to say and fully take it on board others dismiss it oh this is just this this is just that and it's like right okay look I work there I did it as a daily job I'd like to think I know the unds yeah so that very long-winded answer to your question no it gave us it gave us great insights and I think there's a lot of things we can like really touch on there um one of bch is obviously you you mentioned your father was a Trader and he actually did he own a firm itself no he didn't own a firm um he got he started back in on the late 60s wow um on the Metal Exchange he randomly got a job was at a party and somebody said oh well we got this opening on this thunder Metal Exchange and he was like what the hell's that and they went well this is what it is would you be interested and he was like yeah went down there fell in love with it um but no he was um boss of the desk at um Henry B um long connects uh trand Metals um and then he got when did he retire probably about 2005 2006 it's interesting you mention that cuz obviously it was similar with yourself he he put you into the position then you sort of went around through different connections and sort of building your name but would you say it's the same process now or is it much harder to sort of get your foot in the door now let's take a break for a minute there guys cuz I want to tell you about the best prop firm in the entire industry Alpha Capital let's keep it nice and simple you want to get paid out you want to have institutional experience behind the firm you want to have their own broker so that you can trade on the best platform that all Traders love to use and on top of which they have their own technology as well so you know they're here for the long term Alpha Capital has no commissions as well as part of their trading conditions which is absolutely incredible and not only that they're London's finest now if you want to join them 20% off using the code Riz and the link is in the description below now let's get back to the episode well it's changed cuz when he started it was all public school boys right and you have you know the bosses of the desk I mean these guys had fought in World War II do you know what I mean you had brigadiers and Colonels and all that kind of stuff so it was very much old school tie but then you kind of had this influx from the East End of London who would then starting to creep into the markets and then the kind of the public school boys kind of shoted away it got more agressive basically do you know what I mean whereas they don't really like confrontation and it was very much I sld you five Dear Boy yes thank you very much dear boy all that kind of stuff it's not what ye stand is like yeah so you know it was a lot heck of a lot more aggressive and then so he lived and I did sort of within the the real big boom times all right now it's you've got to have a degree in this you got to have a degree in that and it's it's all gone for me American like totally you got internships and all this crap that didn't exist so my job interviews were pubs do you know what I mean literally um I remember the old man telling me he had um Morgan Stanley rung him up in the office and this lady's like going through look we want a copper Traer with a lot of experience blah blah blah blah blah and he's like yep take this box take that box take that box take that box and then she goes uh so what university did you go to he goes University of life love she me oh does that mean you don't you didn't go to university he's like no I didn't go to university what are you looking for a very experienced copper Trader right that's why he speaking to me not because of the school that I went to and she goes well I'm so sorry you have to have a degree to work at Morgan Stanley and he just laughed and put the phone down yeah so yeah it very much got heck of a lot more corporate these days yeah um yeah so I'm kind of I'm I'm lucky and privileged to have been there when that sort of stuff didn't matter you know what I mean it was more of who you were and your understanding and rather than you know what do you think to the industry now especially I know you're not on social media so maybe I don't know if you ever get to see what's happening on there or not no not really probably the probably for the best oh this is the thing people say to me oh have you seen this person have you seen this video I'm like no why would I not be rude but why would I watch it mhm it's got zero interest to me you know if I've got a contemporary of mine that's gone on and done something then you I'll watch it with interest because it's like you know what you're talking about because you did the same thing as me so I'll listen to you but if I've got I don't know a young guy who's like oh I've got the latest this that and the other I'm like mate where did you work I know you haven't work at investment Banks you don't know do you so for me it's just like stop bullshitting do you know what I mean but the social media for me is just like forget it i' got I've got way better things to do with my time and sit there on social media personally no definitely I feel like a lot of us probably should take a little break as well um but it's interesting what you said there because one thing I would like to maybe ask you is because a lot of us look at social media we've probably grown up with social media right so it's kind of all we know so we we look at it and we say this is you know this is bad so for example like people bullshitting people selling snake all as they say and you know making up terminology or concepts or promoting Concepts as institutional and this is how the banks trade Etc yeah has that always been the case though were there people even back then who were trying to sell education in that side of with using those sort of tactics back back when so well actually that's I guess another sort of point that we can touch on before that is that how accessible to the average person was Trading very very difficult I mean when I started there was no such thing as retail trading really yeah no such thing as retail trading um you I suppose well I say that there's no such thing as retail trading I mean I was in a market that basically as a retail Traer you'd never be able to trade it cuz you didn't have enough money do you know what I mean so you have to have you know they may have changed now but it would be like north of half a million in an account to be able to a full you know initial and variation margin on the contracts um so people wouldn't have traded that I mean a gas trading you could call it retail trading because you know stocks and shares and stuff like that but again not on the radar MH not on the radar um and people that sort of sell courses and stuff like that I mean again this only came into my sort of I don't know Consciousness in 20 16 I didn't even know it existed really yeah didn't even know it existed and I then looked at it and looked into it and I was like my God what the hell are these people saying this is rubbish you know and so if I can help one person that watches this and introduces them to what the reality is then I've done a job do you know what I mean but yeah I suppose people were doing it but I couldn't definitely 100% name anybody or say anything was there the use of like Leverage back then as well as high as it is today um for retail or for insti for retail uh again I couldn't answer I wouldn't want to sit here and come up with you know some stupid answer because I don't know do you know what I mean like I say it's not on the radar so when I say it's not on the radar right if he look at the market today FX Market as an example right it turns over 7 and half trillion a day right that's a big number right not a lot of people can compute just how big that number is is huge but then I say right okay let's swap out dollars for seconds mhm how long is 7 and a half trillion seconds I don't even want to know just little bit short of 238,000 years in a day now you times that by five days in a week and then you do the math it's enormous right so for retail trading when you're trading5 101,000 it makes no difference you're never going to move the market you're never going to influence the market in any way shape or form so you are insignificant in the game right so it's kind of like I've said this people you're playing a simulation of the real game it might look the same it might you know what I mean but it's it ain't the same game so yeah it's it's leverage I think leverage has been higher in the past than it is now obviously there were regulations that were brought in to protect retail Traders and I think you know in the states to protect retail Traders you're not allowed to hedge because apparently mitigating risk is more risky than trading in One Direction apparently but then America is home with a hedge fund so go figure that one um it's yeah I think that people were getting themselves in trouble being over leverag because they didn't understand what it really meant do you know what I mean um and yeah you know sort of those things have have been tightened up but that it's not just in the UK do you know what I mean they've been tightened up all around the world so I do think it's a very good thing for beginners do you know what I mean because you know 30 to1 leverage it's just not massive um but yeah you'd get PES that were like a thousand to one or something like that and that could just absolutely smash people apart because again you know retail trading is all basically about trading in One Direction right and you got to trade in One Direction like why why are you only trading in One Direction at what point do you think you've got control over what's actually going to happen you haven't so again that's what I say to people is hedge you do realize institutions are hedged all the time right we don't make money on price Movement we make money on volatility we don't give a [ __ ] which DS and the market goes in at all all right we're always hedged so if you as a retail Trader can sort of sit there and grasp the concept of it's okay to lose that to make that MH yeah because again it's like Market gets to a level does it go up or does it go down well I don't care I don't care about Direction all I want it to do is move now if it cost me X to make Y and then the market shows me in which direction it wants to go in fantastic do I care about Direction no I do not if markets go up markets go down what about technical analysis Chuck it in the bin Chuck it in the bin right technical analysis technical analysis is basically for analysts analysts at Banks um I will admit I saw one of your podcasts where a guy was said I will tell you how HSBC changeed and I literally spat my drink out and laughed right I was like you're just reading reports mhm that's all you're doing have you actually scrolled down to the bottom of your report and have you seen the bit where it basically says um we make have contrary views to the ones that we've expressed we may have contrary positions to the ones that we're actually talking about oh we may have traded ahead before sending you out the report which is all contains this technical analysis reports are not done on what the content is is how it looks all right technical analysis is used by analysts at Banks to paint [ __ ] stories to put in reports to send out to clients that's what it's there for that's not how we trade but that's what that's there for right so technical analysis for me it's like what are you doing go and read the disclaimer at the bottom that's the bit I'm interested in m so if you've got a report from HSBC or you got a report from Goldman or you got a report from suden go and have a look at the small print it tells you explicitly we could very well have used this for our own purposes our own purpose what does that mean that's quite all encompassing isn't it could it be that I've traded ahead and then I've sent a report out and in the report it says well if we get to this level here you know what we think the momentum should take it higher mhm am I planting a seed in your mind yeah mhm so the market I bought here the market gets up to that level and then people go oh I remember that report well they reckon the M them might take it higher I tell you what I'm going to start buying thank you you've just helped me close out my position now if it goes up Happy Days you make money if it doesn't go down TP [ __ ] you're a big boy you know the go you know you know the rules so technical analysis for me it's waste of time waste of time um because you're not going to predict future price movements you don't know where the Market's going to move from ahead of the time is that the case across the board in ter of like no one on that level you know in terms of the institutional side they're not looking to predict price movements they're just as you mentioned already they're just looking for volatility yeah and through hedging they're happy to take a loss here but to take a win on on this side obviously that covers that loss yeah that's how hedge funds operate right that's how hedge funds operate so it's if you looked at it and you said right do I know where the market will move from ahead of the time yes why do I know that right I know the rules of the game there are going to be specific places where the market will move from now once you know where they are again a you'll know where the market is going to move on in the future but B you can also you can go back like I showed you before right go back and it's a very very quick explanation to you but you can go back and you can go well wait a minute markets mov from here in 2020 2018 2015 2013 and then I can go back to the 2000s and then I can go back to the '90s and then I can go back to the 80s and the market keeps moving from the same places so where's it going to move from in the future same places move from in the past so then what then comes into it is is you then look at it and you go right this thing at the bottom of your chart it's called time doesn't exist not interested in time right what I'm interested in is right from this level here this level here this level here this level here I do a chart I analyze it that's the currency chart that's we did the Euro before sat down I'd never have to touch that chart again unless it goes and makes a new high it won't make a new low because the things that came before it which is where the Euro gets his trading levels from has actually been lower already right so unless the Euro goes and makes a brand new high which you ain't going to do anytime soon I do a chart I analyze it once and that's it never touch it again don't need to and if you could use technical analysis where's the market going to move from God knows because I don't know where the move originally started from I'm guessing I'm looking at ridiculously short time frames I'm getting a completely different perspective and view of the market I'm fighting against Commercial Business on a daily basis I don't understand as a retail Trader there are two sides to the the the trading story you got commercial business so on a daily basis what's happening in the Foreign Exchange Market well we're not bloody trading all the time for ourselves you know jobbing in and out stuff like that uh we're facilitating clients all the FL that's what we doing so 95% of your time is taking up doing that the other 5% is right I'm taking a position from there and I want to take it down to here and yada yada but if you're fighting against people that or trying to trade against people right that have to trade they have to no they don't want to it's not like it's not a want like I you know I want to speculate from here I have to trade I've got wages to pay I've got bills to pay I've got invoices to pay I've got all this kind of stuff so you bring up an investment bank and they go right I need to buy 20 million euros okay there you go you can do it at this Price Right D bom right how are you supposed to predict that I said this in an interview quite a few years ago now but I'm sitting at my desk phone rings I pick the phone up what's the only thing I know the person other person at the end of the phone is going to say to me the one thing I can predict hello after that I don't know what he's going to say buy could be sell do you want to go out for a beer you want to go out for lunch or something like that I don't know what this person's going to say so if you're trying to tell me that you can preempt what he's going to tell me to do before he does it forget it yeah because the assumption is that the market is built up of buying and selling pressure um while there's a narrative that's going on at the moment in the retail space of like the market is predictable using an algorithm and therefore we break down the algorithm into technical technical analysis right different aspects of te technical analysis and that's why people are getting quite confident um in their analysis and getting quite maybe overly confident to the point where they start to predict the markets so it's interesting when you talk about commercial uh side of things because you're talking about wages Etc can you break that down a bit further like what would these companies be doing in terms of they bu they're paying for wages Etc and does that then incorporate into the 7 trillion that's being in terms of volume going through for it yes so if you mention I don't know big company like Coca-Cola right it's got subsidiaries all around the planet yeah and let's just imagine it pays everybody on the same day in the month but you're an American company dollars We're British I don't want to get paid in dollars mhm right you're in Australia you don't want to be paid in US Dollars you want to be paid in your own local currency right so if you can imagine a company like Coca-Cola basically would say right I need to sell this amount of dollars and I need to buy Aussie dollars I need to buy pounds I need to buy Euros Etc in order to then go and that money then goes out of their accounts and it goes to pay all the subsidiaries around the world of cocacola if you had um an importing business right as an example so British company importing marble from Italy yeah because make work services and stuff like that right so the company in the UK gets in touch with the company in Italy and they say right I want to to buy x amount of Marble Marble good lad x amount of marble and the company in it says right yeah that's going to be two and a quarter trillion sorry two and a quarter million euros mhm okay so what do a company in UK have to do sell the pound and buy the equivalent of two and A4 million euros they then send them an invoice they then pay that invoice all of this is going on all the time right yes there is speculation going on but not again not all the time do you know what I mean so if the the main stay of every single day is just Commercial Business good luck do you know what I mean it's it's that is very unpredictable do you know what I mean because like I say if I don't know what he's going to tell me to do how can you know what he's going to tell me to do before he even bloody Rings me up and tells me what to do MH it's an impossibility right yeah well it's so interesting you say that because there's an example and I don't know there's two books that it could be from but it's the same offer it's uh either trading in the zone or the discipline Trader by the same author and there's a story he tells where basically there's like an analyst and he's saying you know great analyst technical analyst and he's saying to this uh investor or this this uh this individual who has a seat on the floor essentially he's like look at my technical analysis look we're about to hit a this floor this key level this support and therefore we should bounce him and buy from him here and then within the story that's in the booket he the guy goes oh really okay then he makes a call does a massive sell order and the price just completely drops and he goes that's what I think about your technical analysis it's like you know you don't know what's going to happen you don't know what orders will get filled exactly kind of what you're you're pointing at there and it's so interesting though because it's it's it's like the opposite of what we on the social media front in the retail side especially nowadays is like the complete opposite of what we're hearing is like oh you here's a strategy that you can learn that can really give you no one really has gone as egotistical to say this is you know 100% certain and this gives you certainty within the market but this is you'll be able to predict the market on a very high you strike rate basis essentially so it's so interesting to be able to hear you know especially because a lot of people are highlighting strategies as institutional strategies this is how the banks trade Etc so to hear someone who has 30 years of experience um you know just more detail and depth of the markets it's incredible and one thing you have touched on a few times and like you said before we started you showed me what you were going to be talking about in terms of the levels and how to actually look at Price you know could we break that down I know obviously we don't have the chart for everyone but could we break that down in terms of what we did there in ter we looked at the Euro um and I know a lot of people trade the euro in the audience as well so you looked at the Euro and you actually went onto the the chart that I had up originally was forex.com chart we moved over to trading View and the reason for that is it actually gives all the data that's available and you know maybe you can take it from there like why did we go so far back in time so we went back to the 80s I think I think even went to the 70s yeah went back to the 7 so right so if you looked at the Euro let's take a break for a minute there guys cuz I want to tell you about the best trading tool on the market trade Zella the reason why trade Zella is the number one trading tool that every Trader needs is because you can do back testing automated journaling trade replay in-depth analytics and so much more and the greatest part about trade Zella is that it's all automated all you have to do is connect your mt4 and mt5 it will pull all your data onto the dashboard you can add playbooks you can just add notes you can add images from your trades and you can get the insights that is necessary for you to progress as a Trader now trade Zella is for absolutely everyone whether you're a crypto Trader whether you're a Forex Trader whether you trade prop firms it is for absolutely everyone and that is why thousands of Traders have signed up using my link here through the podcast make sure you use the code Riz 10 for 10% off your monthly subscription or W for 20% off your yearly subscription the link is in the description below and let's get back to the um Jane 1st 1999 that's when the Euro comes into being right so prior to that some people depends on how old you are you might not even know what these are right but you German marks Italian lra Spanish patas Etc right so they were all their own individual currencies prior to the euro coming into being that was what you would trade Jane 1st 1999 you can't trade them anymore this is the Euro right okay so where do you get your trading levels from on the Euro if you tick over from all of these individual ones to one Collective and say like I said to you you go home on Friday that's the last day you can trade those come in on Monday this is what it's going to be how on Earth as institutions would you have any idea or inkline about where you want to be speculating from if you had nothing to compare it to it would be a free all never going to happen ever right so what came before the euro there were two things one's the European unit of account the other one is the European currency unit what were they they were the precursors to the euro and they were made up of various member country uh currencies within the EUR is like an average yes it's like a weighted average yeah right and so that the European c unit was established in March of 1979 it took over from the European unit of account right so when that's being traded the levels at which speculation is occurring from from institutions are also being laid down so then what you have is business continuity right so you go right we've got all these levels established here what are we going to do Monday we just take all those levels there and we just copy paste over there that's all we do right so you got business continuity so you know exactly where you should be trading from and so then when you look at that and you go okay well that's interesting um that can be traced all the way back like I say to the Inception of free inflaming currency rates back in 71 and then you go that thing at the bottom that time so like I said to you right when the Euro right where it is now when was that first traded as a price good we looked back it was 78 was it 78 the year I was born so then that poses a question doesn't it a okay so it goes all the way back that far how can the value of the Euro be the same now as it was then that's an impossibility isn't it because if you looked at that through the lens of real money what's the value of money in 1978 to 20 24 it's ridiculous it's so not the same so if you then said right well that doesn't make any sense whatsoever how how am I supposed to understand that as a normal person how am I supposed to understand that well if I was to say you it was just a big game right and there are rules to the game one of the rules of the game is that time doesn't exist it's of no Consequence the markets are going to keep moving from the same places over and over again and it doesn't matter where you are in the space time continuing doesn't that makes no difference whatsoever do I know where the euro is going to move from in 10 years time yes how do I know that because it's moved from the same places in since you know 1971 and so you then say well if you were at a bank and you walk in and they go right R sit down me old mate here's a 10 million dollar account it's all about technical analysis go and work it out for yourself not going to happen if you walked in and they say right $10 million account sit you down it's all about fundamentals and you go okay and then just as they're leaving they go by the way no two fundamental events are ever going to be the same so the market will never react in the same way go work it out for yourself not going to happen how do you pass down Knowledge from one generation to the next set of rules how do you how does this work right so one of those big things is time is of no consequence it is all about price and value now when you know where those prices are again you'll just use them forever but when you know where these prices are what you're then doing as an institution is is when we get there what is its current value do I want to maintain the same value as when it was there last time or have I changed my mind do I think it's now overvalued I want to sell do I think it's undervalued I want to buy and I'll make that decision when it gets there I'm not going to make it prior I'll make it when it gets there and so then because you know where that Market's going to move from right in the retail side of things right which direction is it going to go in I don't know I reckon it's going to go down all right take you your ego pick it up put it over there don't ever trade with your ego don't say this is going to happen because I think hedge let the market tell you where it's going to go see now that's quite sensible because if you understood that you had no bearing on how the game is played you don't do you know what I mean like we said 7even and a half trli is there any example in terms of the hedging let's say for a Euro it's just easy right so how I teach people it is right here's a level here's your stop over side okay basically create a window around the level and hopefully the market is going to come let's say the Market's cominging down comes down to this level now it can do one of two things it can either bounce or it goes through the level now at what point can I influence how that works I can't so you have to be very open to the fact that you're not in control you never will be in control right so level stop stop right Market comes down which one you're going to do don't care which one you do right there's no bearing I don't make money by caring which direction the market goes in I make money because it moves right so then what I do is Market comes down let's say that it doesn't bounce it goes through so I have a fix stop here and a fix stop here I got takeprofit targets here and here and I go right okay Market comes down goes through my level my Buy trade gets stopped out mhm my sell trade then continues down now takeprofit targets are targets you don't always hit your targets You' got to you know trade manage as well I mean don't be a micromanager you got to let things flow right so then what happens is let's just say for argument say it hits its take profit Target I go right I got a negative number here I got a positive number here and one of I got at the end that's my profit mhm right and so if you were to hedge and be open sometimes to losing on both sides of that trade that's okay it's called you know the embracement of risk if I don't risk I can't make yeah so there I say right so the volatility that comes into that market is that institutions the consensus was that that price at this point in time is actually overvalued so we want to sell so the volatility comes to the sell side right I don't mind losing there to find that out MH yeah so if you treated trading like a business and understood that businesses have costs you go right if it cost me that to find out I can make that wait I'll do that deal every day at a bloody week so it's like adding in another layer of you know working out your your profit and loss so in terms of rather than just looking at winners and losers you're now looking at okay I wouldn't lose on the same position or or hedged position yeah so now what's my profit or loss after that fact after the both been closed yeah in terms of the overvalued and undervalued aspect is there anything in particular that an institution or yourself when you in these positions would look at to to justify this being overvalued or undervalued is anything CU you mention fundamentals for example um and you're right in terms of like you there's no prediction of any two fundamentals being the same right but is it still helpful is it still useful is it still something that you keep an eye on or is it something that again is of no consequence no I mean you keep an eye on fundamentals do you know what I mean so you keep an eye on sort of Central Bank releases and stuff like that I mean that's amazing because again that's that's to do with real money and not to do with currency value or currency payers you know but you keep an eye on it you don't want to be caught unawares by something do you know what I mean so you keep up with the current affairs yes that's where you get your current valuation from right but again on the retail side of things because you're not making those decisions about what is undervalued overvalued don't worry about it yeah keep yourself a breast of the situation yes but you've got no influence over it do you know what I mean so what I say to people is you are probably giving too much energy into stuff you can't control and pick it up take it away you know what I mean just be left with the just the pureness of right level hedge move that's it level hedge move could you do that from the same place again and again and again and again and again it's very monotonous M it's very boring right not exciting shouldn't be exciting I think a lot of people that I speak to especially the younger people they like oh I'm in this Discord group and we're doing this and we're doing that and I'm like right why are you in a Discord group well because you know everyone's buzzing around and these trading ideas and I'm in this trade and all stuff like that like right why are you trading you're trading to be part of the group you're trading because you want other people to go yeah that's a good idea that's a bad idea because you actually care about other people's opinions social media everybody cares about what everybody else says yeah I couldn't give two [ __ ] at all I don't care about any of that all right stop worrying about what other people think and say and do and just switch it all off and go right the pess of there's a chart there's a market what's it doing I don't need this fundamental side of things yes do keep a breast of stuff be interested if you ain't interested don't trade do you know what I mean and I'm not saying put thousands and thousands of hours into screen time either you don't need to do that well you understand all these markets are just split up into ranges just trade ranges be patient be disciplined problem with today's society is everybody wants to get rich yesterday yeah yeah forget it I mean come on be realistic in terms of that I was is actually going to lead into some of my next questions in terms of one time frames and style so like position swing trading scalping day trading Etc it's all traded it's all trading it's just trading that's that's very true in terms of that though is there was there any times where you would look at scalpy like a very quick position versus obviously you know with the ranges from what we looked at it was on a much higher time frame we're talking potentially holding positions for weeks months this is the thing so as an Institutional guy right what short-term trading for me true two weeks to two months MH that's shortterm right say that to a retail Trader that's position right I'm crapping myself after two hours mhm yeah or 10 minutes or something like that what a quick in and out for me two days do you know what I mean it's it's an entirely different concept do you know what I mean would you sit there and have a client ring you up right and he goes right how can I buy I don't know 50 lots of copper and you go 2,000 and he goes yep done it then on the screen it goes that let's just let's just say now the offer is 1,995 yeah for 50 Lots right I'm short 50 at 2,000 I can go and buy them back at 95 that sort of stuff yeah because you if I don't want to have a position short position at 2,000 right I need to go and cover it now sometimes I can go and Nick a few dollars here and there of course that then all adds up to p&l at the end of the year and stuff like that but yeah mate two weeks to two months that's that short term because you're looking at it again through a different lens you're understanding in right okay if we're in this range we're going to touch both the top and the bottom of this range now I know that in advance yeah I would say that happens 80% of the time sometimes it doesn't quite make all the way to the bottom or all the way to the top in terms of your time though as you mentioned like removing time from equation so you know it's going to go there you just don't know when yeah but you're not bothered about when no I just know that it will happen why do I know it will happen cu that's what's always happened M so I don't need to worry about it I just know that it's going do you know what I mean it will eventually get there which could be two days 4 days 7 Days 10 days two weeks two months could be anywhere within there but again I would much rather put my money on the table once and let the market do what it's always done rather than be trying to In and Out In and Out In and Out In and Out in and out a I need to stick sit in front of my screen way more than I would ever want to this way it's like right put it on people go oh it's called set and forget it's not set and forget it's set and keep bleeding eye on it do you know what I mean um but I know in advance that's that's how this worked you know what I mean that's how this game works so if I know the rules of the game why would I change the rules of the game when they haven't changed is there any other rules that we haven't highlighted at all yeah there's a few rules to the game you know um time not existing um specific prices on currencies can you show can you teach that on different you know asset classes yes of course I mean I sit down with people and I go right okay bring up trading view right and I go right US Stocks pick me a stock stock pick me a stock pick me a company I've never heard of right and I go that one click and you mark it out so once you understand how you mark a chart out and once you understand what a chart is like what what actually really is it it's a graphical representation of human behavior over a time wher however long you look at that chart for right that's what it is human beings making decisions Okay so you go through you mark the chart up and then you say to yourself right who's on the board don't okay who's number two in charge don't know what products do they make no idea what's their profit forecast don't know what have they got coming in the future don't know do I care no can I trade it yes why because that's where ranges are right this is how this Market's been split up this is how instit tional people are making decisions on value we get here this is its previous all-time high what happens Market comes up and it surpasses that and it closes above that then what's it do then it comes back and it goes hello are we still cheap here yes okay up we go again how could I trade that well I knew that that previous High there the decision was to take the market down it's overvalued then we got back there again and I go right well I can hedge from here why cuz I know that there's a decision that has to be made either a we go up or we go down and I could sit there and mark up any chart on the planet doesn't matter what it is and sit there and go right I could trade that what do I need to work out where's my stops right where's my stop losses where's my take profit targets that I need to work out but I could sit there and do a chart when you come to that those moments how do you what are the contributing factor to sort of say okay this is where acceptable stop loss would be or this is where I Look to take profit is it the same ranges or is it something else no i' I'd look at basically look at the chart and say to myself right okay so how far past does it go past this level before it stops and comes back round again right so then I can kind of sit there and go right well that looks like a sensible place to be putting my stops here right and then that would be different on every single chart that you do so again you have to put that working you have to go through have a look sensible places you know and then just sit there and go right what is my decision why am I taking this trade because it's at a level what's happening right now not really bothered where's the market going to go don't care it's like when I say it to that's that's ridiculously simple yes why why does trading have to be difficult think about it's a fundamental question why does trading have to be difficult why would an investment Bank employ you as a Trader to make money but make it very difficult for you to do the job that they've employed you to do in the first place in what business would that make any sense right so if you have a framework to work with and you understand how that looks you understand how the market moves you understand all that you can take that and you can teach that to somebody else like I said fundamentals they're CH constantly changing and the world is constantly changing technical analysis again I go back to you know that's just for an analyst MH right literally I mean I remember the first analyst I ever met um was when I was a credit Leon a it's between ' 94 to '98 it's probably around about 96 97 something like that a lovely guy called maxud Ahmed and he came in and he sat down on the desk and over like hello who are you and he goes I'm Max what are you doing he goes I'm an analyst and we were all like what the hell's one of them right and he goes well I'm to sit here and pour over reports from you know companies like cadelo massive Mining Company in Chile and basically make predictions and write a load of blur on where I see the price of copper being in the next five years and we went piss off you don't even know where it's going to be in the next five minutes let alone the next five years right and he starts laughing and he goes yeah I know right I know that but this is my job this is what they've employed me to do so yeah I would just always just say it's a game learn the rules of the game then you can play the game by the correct set of rules I mean it's it's just a stupid analogy but if you buy a board game right the first thing you do is what read the rules read the bloody rules so you know what you're doing right but then they they they laid down out in front of you our institutions going to come out and tell everybody how we trade no why would you do that a few reasons one of them is you've been using your customers to make a lot of money MH right so but then you're not going to come out and tell everybody what you're doing cuz for as institutions it's about liquidity generation how do you generate liquidity you do the opposite of what you're telling everybody that you're doing but off the back of that like you mentioned that retail really is small game small fish doesn't tiny it's tiny exactly so where does that come in if you're making the money off doing the opposite of what you're telling your clients you're doing or telling people that you're doing where does it come in of where where's that beneficial then if they're so small or is it the case I'm not talking about retail you're talking this is what I was about to say I'm talking about in institution so it's like other institutions and institutional clients right so put it this way if I teach all of my clients to do exactly the same thing as me when I want to buy so today who am I going to buy from if I want to sell so to they who am I going to sell to mhm and that in that scenario I stve myself with liquidity H I don't want to starve myself with liquidity so again it comes down to reports stuff like that if you've traded ahead then you send a report out right I could generate liquidity there couldn't I MH right because especially if you're somebody like Goldman right they go oh God it's G scks yeah I'm going to do it cuz it's Goldman MH Goldman going give two shits where the market goes all I want is to generate liquidity so you buy at wholesale you sell at retail you sell at retail you buy at wholesale that's what you're doing that's how markets works very very simple it's always worked like that like I said Metal Exchange opens in 1877 how the hell does it go on to become this you know the world's noner Metals Market I buy at wholesale and I sell at retail I me if you just come into it I can sell at retail and buy a wholer right brilliant that's it it's that freaking simple in terms of metals you know we had it alltime high on gold recently what happens in those scenarios once we're you know range wise it's it's possible because we have the past price action once we're hitting alltime highs where do the mindsets go like what is the mindset once we're in those all-time high territories for retail or for institution institution retail I know what they're doing they're trying to get reversals they're try trying to do anything but let's keep let's keep going until we find some liquidity M let who wants to sell do you know what I mean who wants to sell and when you find that then you go right that's my ceiling there right come back down again I'll tell you only one on gold right so you've got let's say a high of 1917 mhm um back in the financial crisis right so you go there and you have a look and you come across and look at the right hand side of the chart we then come to gold approaching 2000 Goldman JP it's going to the Moon through 2000 really yes honest honestly it's going to right we've already bought around about 1750 we're telling you go for 2000 it goes to the moon and here liquidity generation Goldman said it right Jesus it must happen guess the 2,000 what happens up out my position thank you very much down again then he come back a couple of years later it's like gold through 2000 goes to the moon you what you said last time yeah but it definitely happens this time you sure mhm up straight back down again right gets there again gold through 2000 it goes to the moon yeah but you that's what you said the last couple of time we don't believe you silly bastards uh now it goes to the moon because now we want it to go to the Moon right so but where's your ceiling you'll let the market show you that do you know what I mean you'll let the market show you that and then again you come back down and you come back to levels that you've been at previously and then you go right okay that again I can see this is where I want to be trading from so if a market does make a new high you can never pick a top or if it makes a new low you can never pick a bottom or you can you can say zero but you know what I mean but you can never pick a bottom either so you have to just let as a Trader you have to let the market show you right where this new ceiling is or where this new bottom is before you can then step in you could go back to the previous high or the previous low and say right there was clearly a conscious decision here a higher b lower that I could trade because then I know right okay so people are going to be sort of looking at this and going right speculation is going to occur again H in it's like well I don't care if you take it back up again or I don't care if you take it down again but I know that something will happen from here mhm cuz it's already happened does that make sense yeah yeah it does that's so interesting CU I was about to say actually and then I realized it was within your explanation there already of like oh maybe we should look out for these articles then and then do the opposite but then as you said um you know you listen to the first time you do the opposite second time you do the opposite third time you do the opposite and it goes so that's not always the best best rout to go either no which is why say if you if you read reports just read them don't act on them yeah do you know what I mean it's so interesting because when I I went to the stock exchange in in New York um in November last year yeah and I went there obviously it's very different to what it used to be yeah you know now it's uh and this is the interesting thing like now it's just like kind of TV sets you know literally the whole place is just scattered with probably about 10 TV sets for you know CNBC and so on and so forth where they do these you know these predictions yeah talk about the markets talking which in terms of like alltime highs Etc is cryptocurrency no different right I know obviously it's more of a relatively new thing but it seems to be following a very similar concept when we see these articles of like when it's at the highs it's like it's going to keep going and then it ends up reversing and similar time this round cryptos is not sort of something that I've really look at call be an old dinosaur or whatever but it ain't regulated so I'm not interested um but then again come boil it down to Human beings mhm okay so what were you told by your mom and dad when you were young right Mom can I have that no why it's too expensive right okay so that gets ingrained into your brain then Mom can I have that yes ah well that wasn't expensive that was cheap right and so you get to learn these these values and it's ingrained in your brain ever since you were a child so when you go and look at chart doesn't matter which one it is when you go and look at a chart just think of in your mind cheap expensive cheap expensive cheap expensive don't listen like I say don't read reports just just leave them alone they're only there because people like to express opinions and people like to go oh well he's got the same opinion as me so they there for I'm really really clever and this should happen no stop listening to other people and use your own bloody Common Sense do you know what I mean so if it's it's alltime high it goes to the moon well you're an analyst you ain't a Trader yeah what's an analyst paid to do to get things wrong on purpose yeah to get things wrong on purpose why generate liquidity H okay well that's a bit of a [ __ ] up job right but to get things wrong how many times do analysts get things wrong a lot I can imagine a lot right so do you want to be an analyst or do you want to be a Trader MH that's a good question um cryptos you mentioned with that in terms of like not being regulated why why is that important to you why is it you know if it's not regulated you're not really bothered well because if you have a dispute with an institution you've got a body that you can go to and go right I have a dispute with this company and you can go down all the legal routes and stuff like that right because you've got backup like the FCA or right so you've got somebody there in your corner you know especially as a retail Trader you can go this company screwed me over and you know they did this and this is not the first instance and this which is has happened and you know I found another group of people and this is right you've got a regulatory body you can go to there mhm if you go to the regulatory body and go I lost all my money in crypto they go nothing think we can do sorry so for me because I come from a regulated environment again that's in my always in the back of my mind you know always in the back of my mind and I have people saying to me should I invest in crypto I go just be aware you can lose all your money right and you've got nobody that you can go and have any recourse with so yeah like I say I could be an old d I don't care but I wouldn't touch it because it's it's not regulated and that does for me make a difference I suppose it's because of the world in which I come from no definitely no it makes sense and it it's something to be very aware of because like when we talk about trading anyway in terms of risk we talk about make sure you risk what you can afford to lose yeah and it's like just making sure you have your risk appetite and understand the risk you're taking because most people probably won't understand what it means to not be regulated or be regulated you know and they won't understand the that the fact that if you can lose everything which you can MH that there isn't anything there to protect you versus in a regulated environment so there's the pros and cons but most people just don't do take the time to research or understand it in the first place um so not only are you risking money that you can't afford to lose potentially which most people are doing unfortunately but then they're risking it into something where they have no protection either on top of it yeah so it's just the ultimate risk if you will um in terms of capital there what what are your thoughts in terms of capital like how do how should Traders capitalize themselves on more more the retail side for this side of things right now there's a big boom uh over the last couple years in terms of prop firms which is interesting because you you brought something up earlier where in terms of it being a game right and the retail side sort of being doesn't really count it's like a it's fake money it's not even like real in the sense on the grand scheme of feelings yeah well these prop firms I don't know if you've heard of them or not but um they essentially use demo funds it's demo accounts the whole thing is built on demo accounts and it's h people pass a do a phase one do a phase two get a certain percentage return Etc then you get funded still demo though then you get paid out based on your performance thereafter that's the current really hyped up um sort of route that a lot of Traders are taking in terms of to get capital or to at least leverage to start getting their own Capital what are your thoughts in terms of how Traders should be capitalizing themselves and what would you say as well in terms of like becoming a full-time Trader so meaning that they're making ample enough income from Trading to be able to live their life themselves what's all capital do you think a Trader needs to get to that point that's a good question I mean I suppose it's is you know what's your monthly outgoings what's your costs and you know what I mean all stuff like that and I mean I would suggest if you had a job and then you jacked it in because You' were making the same money or a bit more that's Freedom MH right that's Freedom um prop trading it's not prop trading cuz there the real props the original props right and what we have now which was clamped down on you know like a ton after you know the financial crisis because basically that was just like right U here's the pot risk Department MH yeah [ __ ] off our job's to make money just don't even bother coming over do you know what I mean we're here to make money and we take as much risk as we bloody want it's quite what that's got to do with prop firms as in you know FX or whatever um for me I mean again it's it's like if I've got to pay to get a demo account I mean straight away that's smelly right so I'm trading on a demo account you've got my money and you've got thousands and thousands of other people's money again walk into that understanding you log on to a broker and it comes up and it says 79% of people that trade with this broker lose money right that's again massive giveaway why do they lose money well should we go and have a look at the educational section on this broker's website like he's going to teach you how to take his money yeah yeah right so all these firms know basically that the people that are trading have no real education they don't understand how the game they don't they just literally don't understand it or they've been talked to do all these stupid things and they don't work so I mean again for me that's just like it's just ripping people off do you know what I mean it's just ripping people off I mean I last night just for shits and giggles right I watched a big sh again yeah yeah right so Mark Bal that character now I sat there last night with the misses and I was like do I go on ranting like Mark B she's like no no she's trying to hold you back yeah right I'm like but why and she's like no he said because people will just think that you're you know this loud arrogant you know person that's telling everybody they're doing everything wrong and I'm like yeah I know I don't want to be that shouty shouty and she's like no just take your time breathe listen to Riz answer the bloody questions don't go on a don't go on a crusade but the thing for me is is like the whole retail trading industry is built on [ __ ] and so if you've got a whole industry that's built on [ __ ] it's like prop firms that ain't a prop firm to me do you know what I mean everyone else that's a prop firm I've got to pay money to do a challenge and I got to do this and I got to do that and then there's all these rules and all these restrictions and all stuff like that can you use them to get funded I don't know yeah I don't know I I suppose you could if you're going to trade with your own Capital again it just comes down to right just think to yourself as a Trader right when I embrace risk what am I looking at I'm not looking at how much money I can make I'm looking at how much money I could potentially lose in order to give me an opportunity to make money so what would I risk you've already hit the nail on the head how many risk are you going afford do you know what I mean however much that is if you you got ,000 in the account or £100,000 in an account do you know what I mean if you can afford to lose 100 Grand fine you can afford to lose a grand fine but I mean again it's just understanding your aspirations if you think that you're going to be able to earn enough money to sustainably support you and your family off a one grand account you're delusional MH do you know what I mean you know you have to build things and build things and build things but it's it's like if you've privileged enough to have 100 Grand in an account and again you still got to have a good education otherwise you're just going to bloody blow a lot do you know what I mean so in terms of percentages though because it's part off the back of that like a lot of people over the recent years they they're as retail Traders it's a bit interesting to get your perspective to be fair because obviously as an institution you're handling much larger Capital even institutional clients probably much larger Capital so percentages probably decrease in terms of what the sort of targets are or what's deemed as good versus a retail Trader because the capital is much less the percentage returns could be higher but it's obviously on much smaller Capital so in terms of in reflection it's still much lower than what the institutions are doing of course what is your sort of thought process of like what is an acceptable return or an average return that a Trader should be looking at or should be looking to return or is it not something that focused on no your jobs to make as much money as possible MH we you have risk parameters that you can use right so the risk department will say you know you don't go over this position limit or whatever I mean I remember remember a guy used to work with Neil poter and the previous company you worked at was a company called AMT so Amalgamated metal Trading and his boss there he tells the story when when he came to S his boss there said Neil yes he goes position limits he goes yeah he goes you're either maximum long or maximum short he goes they're banisters they're not targets right yeah and um so I mean I would say 50% a year on average is quite easily achievable um I would say it comes as how many asset classes am I looking at you know how often am I trading do you know what I mean it's a very difficult one to give you like a retail average retail person who just taking sort of what I've seen most of the retail Traders I come across not to say all of them are like this of course but the ones I've come across they're trading pretty much every day and they're Trading being normally just one asset class in the sense of they might be trading Forex but maybe at maximum two or three pairs of Forex uh they might be trading Futures but again just maybe normally when it's Futures maybe again maximum two or three instruments within futures um that's the the average person I'm seeing they're trading Monday to Friday and they're doing two to three pairs within that depending on the sector what sort of return would you think on that person cuz what are your thoughts on trading every single day in the first place I know you've already mentioned about it doesn't seem something that's uh you know very profitable I wouldn't trade the same thing every single day put it that way if I had a portfolio right and I was afforded an opportunity every day within my portfolio then yes I would trade every day MH but I only trade when the market allows me to right are you it's at a place where I'm interested in in trading um if you've only got two two or three pairs that you're looking at like mate they ain't hitting levels that I would sit down with you and show you right they ain't going to hit levels every week or every day no chance so basically what you're doing there is you're fishing for trades mhm yeah you're fishing now I would do the same thing but what I would suggest is there's a river there's one bank there's another bank I'm going to put me rod and line in there and me rod and line in there and I know that the the fish have to come either up here or down here they have to yeah yeah anything in the middle not interested in not interested in and it's it' be difficult on a daily basis to sort of sit there and make kind of with any certainty really what and again because people all trading in One Direction right what direction is it going to go in you're overdoing it m for me do you know what I mean and that's one the worst things because people think that trading is like real life so real life okay the more hours I work yeah the harder I work the more I kiss the bus's ass all stuff like that the better it's going to be for me financially so you have this ethic of got to be busy got to be busy got to be busy you put that into trading forget it so I say everybody I've never done a real day's work in me life the funny thing is I've seen I've seen people obviously you know scalpers for example on the retail side where they they're trading maybe a few hours you know their trades last a few hours of the day um they're in and out they're taking maybe two to three trades a day um I want say two to three two trades maybe a day yeah and they're playing their Edge right so they have a particular system so they're using technical analysis um with that technical analysis it's it's very specific of what they're looking for there might be timing involved as well interestingly enough so they might be using T certain timings with certain uh things in the charts and then they're being disciplined to stick to that they may have a fixed sort of risk reward based on their trades their risk per trade the rules on break even you know going risk-free and partialing trades Etc so they have a very stringent process by sticking to this process they are profitable and been profitable long term and have the receipts if you will and and the track record to prove that M you know would you say that that is possible then so even though it's not the trading that you've done yeah I'm not saying I'm not saying look M I am God and you must do what I say do you know what I mean I'm not saying that I'm just trying to bring a different perspective to the table do you know what I mean if you have found something that works for you and it's consistent and it's profitable then M if it's making you money brilliant M would you say that as part of that well I was just going to say what I'd much rather do is go right there to there trade on get up walk away oh other stuff I want to do do you know what I mean that for me that's Freedom if I if somebody says to me I want Financial Freedom but then I've got to sit there in front of a chart all bloody day I'm like right mate what you doing you're just swapping one bloody job for another one yeah exactly no this is what I was going to lead on to is that I feel like obviously majority of people lose so the reality of most people being able to do that you know most people this is so there are people who do that I know people personally who do that um and I know a decent number of people but when we're talking about the the grand scheme of the retail market and all the retail Traders the majority are trying well I don't want to say majority of them are doing that the majority that I see are doing that they're trying to trade in that manner but they're failing and it kind of is a good reflection and a middle ground between them and yourself for example of like maybe they're just over complicating it maybe they're just on such lower time frames and maybe if they did just simplify whether it's going to the much higher time frames or somewhere in the middle but took a very similar stance maybe they would perform a lot better and actually be putting less time in taking less trades but their performance actually perform better overall less is more that's one of my favorite things yeah I mean totally less is more you know it's it's for me if the thing about trading I think that most people find the most difficult is and forget the market it ain't the market it's you against yourself right it's you against yourself you're going to have these you know I don't know angel and devil on your shoulders you know what I mean you're going to have that and you're going to have self-doubt and you're going to do you know what I mean you just got to try and work your way through it so I say to people you have got to become the best Loser on the planet mhm and they're like what okay you have to be the best loser as in it don't affect you as in if you lose on a trade right you're not staring at the bottom of a bottler Jack Daniels right and if you win on a trade you ain't spraying champagne already the house you have to be centered MH do you know what I mean because you have to understand that yeah look my My Graph yeah my p&l it's not going to be a diagonal line yeah it's going to look like a chart it's going to go up and down and up and down and up and down and up and down and up and down it's getting used to it and I think because people aren't I suppose taught that in sort of any other Walk of Life it's very difficult you know I mean it's not like being a surgeon and going oh yeah BL me look this guy here and this one stuck his leg back on stuck his leg back on how did the third one go well not quite so well do you know what I mean it's forget it it's not like that do you know what I mean it's it's you have to get used to losing but not letting it affect you your your emotions um and I think that's what a lot of people do they can't handle their own emotions do you think they create a fantasy of what trading looks like so I've spoke about this recently is like not only on that front in terms of wins and losses but also in terms of money they think that once they see some profit or let's say they're consistently profitable for six months and they're making good money finally they think that something you know trading becomes easy not in the sense of maybe their technical ability or what they're looking at but just like suddenly becomes easy some it's like reading a book they'll know where the Market's going to go or they can just turn up and do whatever and become very second nature versus the reality in my opinion and I really love to hear your reps on it as well is that no matter how long you've been doing it no matter how well you've been doing it every day is still that same challenge if you will and it's not nothing to be it's not a negative thing challenge right it should really be something that you know because you're passionate about the markets is something you're excited for to try and essentially win and overcome that challenge yeah um but that's the reality of trading whether you've been trading five years 10 years 20 years like you're always going to have those challenging moments and come to the table and have to be disciplined and follow your the rules yeah well I mean that's the thing as well is you know like when you're on a trading floor I mean M it can be quiet quiet quiet boring boring boring and then bang and you got a switch on straight away from doldrums and mucking around you know what I mean stuff like that be bang serious focus and it's just like that can come at any time so you always have to be battle ready I suppose do you know what I mean you have to be like that you have to have a passion for what you're doing if you haven't got a passion for what you're doing forget it if somebody gets in touch with me and they go yeah can you teach me how to trade it's a bit of a hobby no not at all right what you mean it's a hobby hobbi bloody gardening or golf do you know what I mean this is a this is a way to make money Ain it's not a hobby do you know what I mean and then I kind of get a little bit defensive and going be making a my career for my entire career of being a freaking hog not going to be Mark B um that's I know you're fighting it I I am I am I am because I could rent on for ages do you know what I mean but I don't want to and I don't want to be come across as um just this arrogant knob do you know what I mean the thing is because I've actually really been there and seen it and done it do you know what I mean I have such a passion for it and my thing is is through that passion I try to tell people stop stop watching these videos stop you know tell you a good one you're talking about prop firms right so I got invited by um the fivs mhm right last summer to go and do a speech right at one of their events mhm that was super weird how I mean like you know in the universe just align sometimes and you're like that's so strange so I get this call right out of the blue and he goes hi this is is Ken Davis and I said [ __ ] hell Ken what you done to your voice he goes sorry well my man used to sit next to Ken Davis at triand metals and they sat there and squabbled and argued and were best mates for you know a good 15 years so I said [ __ ] hell K you tell me your voice he was like sorry I said that's not Ken Davis from triand is it he went no but my name is Ken Davis I went that's weird right so anyway so Ken you know puts it all together and stuff like like that and we go down and it's on the King's Birthday MH right and so I'm going down on the train and I'd completely forgotten it was the King's birthday I'm thinking bloody hell this Train's well busy for a Saturday morning do you know what I mean what's going on and get a newspaper and I'm like oh it's King's birthday right fantastic so I get out of the station right and I go I ain't getting on the tube forget it it's it's going to be mobbed it's hot do you know what I mean you know got shirt you know what I mean jacket on I don't want to get there like a sweaty mess right so I jump in his cab and I said all right mate you take me to Westminster he goes blind me you mean you're asking for trouble I was like why and he's like they've shut loads of the roads off and all stuff like that you know it's King's birthday I was like yeah I know I found it out on the train and he goes anyway um what you doing I said oh I'm giving a speech on uh on trading he goes huh you don't know Paul Mason do you I went what pexi he went yeah I went yeah my old man giv him his first job of all the cabs in all of London that I could have jumped into that morning why did I jump into that one MH right really weird so I'm sitting in the back going to the old man right you know very funny um so anyway so look I get there do this speech and I got people in the audience and they're sitting there and they're looking at me like I'm talking a foreign language all right completely foreign language and I then get outside and I'm I'm in the halls and the people are coming up and they're talking to me God blind me a good couple of hours after that and then I'm supposed to go and do this Q&A session right and so this fell comes running over he's like you're supposed to be up on stage during the Q&A session I was like so sorry right got a dash run in jump up on the stage get mic thrown at me and the guet asking the questions goes Paul is there something you know or what do you think what would you say and I was like sorry mate missed the first question what was it he goes is there something you could tell all the people in this room right now look would help them straight away and I went yeah stop listening to these knobs on YouTube right and you just see people are just like some of them are just in hysterics and of course that went down like a lead valoon they haven't invited me back for this [Laughter] year that's fair enough though fair enough at least you're you know able to speak your mind you know a lot of people in those positions they don't they just sort of go with the whatever The Narrative of the day is of course and it's it's a circuit me that's do you know what I mean it's a circuit and all of these answers are always you know rehearsed and do you know what I mean and it's just like you know some people go well how should I trade you know find a way that works best for you like [ __ ] off I mean how's that going to help do you know what I mean how's that going to help I heard somebody say um what time frame should I trading from the answer that was given was the one that looks most aesthetically pleasing to you how is that going to help you it's not it can't do you know what I mean and like I said they were looking at me and I was talking and it's like why is this guy not talking about Fibonacci levels and Ballinger bands and all stuff because this is the stuff that we know do you know what I mean and just standing just looking at them and I you know I came away from there I was like they didn't understand a bloody word I was talking about you know one did bless him um and approached me and we you know sat down mentored him whatever but yeah at that whole day and I'd already told Ken the only reason I'm doing this is to annoy people yeah he didn't mind no he didn't like it sometimes you know yeah well that's the thing he was look he goes you're tot you're going to be totally unique here cuz all these other bods none of them have ever worked you know tring or anywhere near it MH so he said just just come and tell your story just give a different perspective but yeah like I said I haven't been vient well that's what I love about the platform we've tried to build here is that we it doesn't matter like some people can have the complete opposite opinion to me and it's not a problem because my this whole thing isn't about what I think it's about the the guest highlighting different perspectives different experiences um different viewpoints within our industry you know the industry that we all love and that's what I enjoy most you know so like even with like the prop film stuff think the I understand the the negative aspect of them but I understand like the opportunity they're providing right now for a lot OFA I've seen Traders make millions from prop films yeah that's incredible yeah um but again I also recognize what you've said and and other people have also said and highlighted and it's absolutely fine I'm not going to sit there and be like please don't say please don't say this um and I think it's important though because I think these the whole point of a podcast but just generally as well as human beings that we have to have conversations you know to be able to okay you've got this experience that I don't have you know you've had these insights that I don't have yeah and even then like just through this one and a half hour conversation I've learned so much that I taken on different perspectives that I wouldn't have known um even just on the very simple point of like the commercial aspect of trading I want a thought of that and that's probably why we see a lot of the or this is my from hearing that my thought process is then like this is probably why we see these chunks of consolidation on the charts it could just be a lot of this Comm commercial transactions going through the markets I don't know that's my that's me like trying to piece the market together to predict well just well people go oh oh London open London open right London open London close right well the Market's moving right yeah you got Market on open orders MH they some of those Market on open orders right they'll come across from Asia MH right so let's just say that you got an Asian client that's given um your Asian arm with the bank right some orders and basically he then says look if nothing done do it on Landon open for me MH yeah so you got Market on open orders so you could have a market that's I don't know been ticking down for the last couple of days and then just just randomly on one day you go dink it goes up a bit why just because you have those orders at that particular time of the day or you have Market on close orders right so you give me an order and you go look mate nothing don't just do Under the close from of you and so again you can have movement at certain times of the day yes but for a specific reason not because oh this bit of news come out or this come out or this you know this bloody I don't know Fibonacci level race to hit no understand you know orders again mhm do you know what I mean but those sort of things aren't ever spoken about because they're not used in the you know in the retail world do you know what I mean definitely definitely that's why markets can move at specific times there we go no I like that cuz again I wouldn't have I wouldn't have thought of that you know and it's just the inter thing is it's simple as well in terms of order it's just orders right it's just understanding there's buyers or sellers or orders being placed within the markets in terms of uh the orders though and sort of like where we progressed to we've talked about charts but that when you started there weren't charts you we discussed this very briefly before we started like what was that like in terms of trading but trading without charts like what was the process like as well well I tell you what I've lied to you MH there were charts but these were A1 pieces of graph paper right that was stuck together MH by a guy in the office Paul Gordon right absolute [ __ ] Maniac brilliant guy bloody nutcase um but we would have to it's like a giant orami session in the morning right M so he unfold these bloody things and he'd been keeping you know records of price since the 60s but all literally all we plotted was open high low close that was it that was Advanced as it as it got right but then even from there just looking at that right knacked old bits of P it was hilarious but you could see right price above or above this price here I should say right above here what's the market do Rises mhm gets back to it rises again gets back to it changes value comes down what happens Rises hits it reverses comes down so you know that's an important price mhm cuz this where the market is moving to and from so yes I likeed it yes we did have charts but paper were just pieces of paper right but I mean like I said you so you get there there's a screen it's just got prices on it that's it and there's quotes from you know Brokers and and and banks on the on the on the lme um or you'd have this monitor that I had like literally on my desk right in front of me but it was like this this this big right was about this deep and it was just a black screen with green text on it green right and it was just prices and that's it but that again hasn't that concept hasn't really changed because all you're doing if you look at a proper institutional trading desk what have you got just numbers it's not charts it's just numbers mhm so if you already know where you want to trade from I don't need a chart I just need a price mhm that's all I need so yeah sorry I did lie to you that was that's okay we'll accept it but in terms of like placing the orders Etc back then there because you were mentioning that you would have your your Market maker essentially and you'd have the pits right yeah so again if uh what I need you to imagine is so the Metal Exchange itself is a physical trading fla the last open outcry Market left in Europe by the way it's still going still going now still going wow um but you had to physically travel mhm right from one to the other right if you were on the floor team you would also have people upstairs right who would be looking after customers and stuff like that funneling orders down now I'll tell you a story in a minute possibly the funniest thing I've ever seen and to been a part of on a trading flu was hilarious um cast cust ring in mhm right I want to buy 10 lots of copper at $24.45 okay thank you how long's you order good for GTC so good to canceled okay so you physically write that on a ticket yeah the car I remember ra coer ticket was pink really right so what do you do so you time stamp it for a start all right so you time stamp it and then you write such and such customer customer code name wants to buy 10 Lots here Order GTC you get that and you go and place that on the coer Trader's desk right then when you physically go down to the trading floor right and if you haven't fulfilled that order and you're still working it what's going to happen is you're going to have somebody upstairs in the office whose specific job is to take any business from the people around and funnel it down but also if you're still working those orders you're going to have what's known as an order book MH right down on the floor and again it was a book not a computer it was a book that you physically had to write in right and so you'd have you'd be working all of those orders now again you'd give that to the trader when it was relevant you know you wouldn't give him a copper order in the aluminium ring because it ain't relevant right but you just and you remind him look you still got this to do here and blah blah blah then you'd have people physically on the phones on the floor relaying prices back to customers customers are then going to give you orders tell you what to do and then you give that to the person standing behind the trader who then fees it to the trader who then executes the order and then that comes back and that comes back and that comes back that's how things were done so one day working at Su we had started to do um business with Chinese right and it was decided it' be a good idea to employ a native Chinese speaker right okay this is where the Calamity started so Kathy blesser she's been with us for about two weeks uh came from China okay so there's a bit of a language barrier so to speak right so she had what's not scal down buying in lead do you understand what I mean by scale down buying I don't necessarily okay scale down let's say I got 500 to buy at 2,000 500 to buy splitting the ORD yeah so the same amount yeah but then at different price levels mhm mhm yeah that make sense I got you yeah yeah so anyway so she gets that order gives it to the lead Trader he's there we then physically go down to the floor you got a guy upstairs in the office and you got a kid on the floor scooter I can't never remember his real name right scooter is his nickname and he's on the floor and he's in the order book right so he's working those orders again it one of those days pretty quiet pretty flat then all of a sudden bang it goes ballistic right so anyway he's on the phone to the office like and all of a sudden and this is the thing so these all conversations were taped we we went back and we listen to this conversation because the kid was crapping himself at the end but it was hilarious so he's just talking to the son of all of a sudden you hear scooter and he's like yeah my red orders you what my red orders you what my red orders do you mean lead yes right he goes yeah he goes if you can't buy it you can sell it he goes okay drops the phone runs down to the front jumps up on the back of the lead Trader he goes cancel the lead Vine sell it it goes all right 3 months lead 95 I give 500 uh no I'll take 50 95 I sell 93 I sell 90 sell right you sold 500 at this you sold another 500 at this and I'll give you an average price at the end so Scooter's like okay runs back grab picks the phone up he goes right you sold 500 at this uh you sold 500 this she's like no no no you can sell it it goes we are [ __ ] selling it and then it's comes back again another 500 here another 500 here he goes she sold another 500 she's like no no no you can't sell it he's like we are [ __ ] selling it then Rob Monty fusu bless him still s them here's what's going on drops his phones he's up in the office drops his phones goes running over grabs the phone out of her hand and goes she means cancel it and he just him go [ __ ] I was running back down the front by 2 and a half thousand lead at market and he looked he went what the hell he's going on and he was just we got to the end of it and we listen to it and he was like she told me to sell it she told me to sell it well that's what I thought she said anyway so yeah if you can't buy it you can sell it that's crazy though yeah that's crazy like I'm guessing like things like that probably maybe do happen all the time but I'm guessing it would have been a quite IR regular occurrence when you're looking talking about like writing orders down and using a lot of phones misinterpretation must have been happening quite often misinterpretation was just Delirious I mean I remember uh guy Barry Smith George was his nickname I gave him some SEO orders right stop cloes only I'll tell you what they are in a minute stop close only orders and I went right say in the nickel market and I went right buy this Stop close only buy this Stop close only B the Stop close only I said do you know what stop close only means George and he goes yeah right two minutes in all your stops have been filled I mean what do you mean all the stops have been filled it's say stop on the close only if the price closes Above This price that I've given you then you have to fill me oh I don't know what stop close only orders are I like what I just asked you you said yes well no I didn't really know what I meant well don't accept the order if you don't know what I'm you don't know what what happens in those moments though like if obviously a mistakes been made miscommunication been made is it just written off it's we have to you know what I mean you have to write it off and sometimes sometimes they're very funny other times they're you know very annoying do you know what I mean was there ever like a really stressful time that comes to mind like something that really put you on edge of w that was a bit of a whether it's a mistake or whether it was like a trade yes one that really did put me on I I remember it it was Hugh right lean and he'd been out to lunch and let's be honest he was piss as a fart right and he's rung into the floor and I was like right hi here you hello uh do me a favor is said uh sell me 100 Inc I said right okay sold sold 100 at 2,000 he goes sell another 100 said okay done at 95 sell another 100 94 sell another 100 all right 90 sell another 100 I like right and then he goes to me sell 700 on the clothes to square me up and put the phone down and I was like what do you mean sell 700 on the closest way you up you just sold it does he think that he's bought it does he what does he think and I kind of frantically ringing his bloody mobile which he's not going through so I don't know how he rung in and I sat there I like to make a judgment call now either he is short 1,400 lots of zc which is a lot mhm right which is a lot or I Square him up and I buy them back and I had to make that decision and I was like Jesus have I made the right decisions you know cuz I couldn't get hold of him and I was like God he said Square himself right buy 700 on the cloth next morning didn't even see him next morning comes into the office um MD marichel Overlander calls him in you're not to trade again right he's pting with his own money it's his own money right so but you're not to do that again so he comes back over and I said did you mean to be short 1400s in or did you want to be square went I wanted to be square dear boy I thank God for that thank God make money on the trade lose money no no he lost about about 30 grand or something like that but yeah he wasn't allowed to trade that he wasn't allowed to do that again he allowed his own money is allowed to trade you know I mean but yeah that put me on a spot cuz I was like because options right options he could have been essentially hedging an option with the underlying do you know what I mean he could have been doing that and he could have been doing that on purpose but I knew what he was like and I knew that he'd been out to lunch for a long time so I'm like what was it like culture wise culture like that just very uh it's kind of like you're on edge right and you're you're you're in the zone and you're doing all these orders Etc everything's flowing but then you also kind of seems like a more of a leisurely environment also like everyone sort of it's kind of everyone sort of knows each other is building the relationship with each other it's very a lot of banters they will say now people are really relaxing on lunch Etc I did my lunch my lunchtime was from 1:30 till 20 past three damn that's enjoy that's enjoyment right mhm that's a long lunch yeah do you know what I mean especially if you just have a quick beer do you know what I mean MH it weren't just one you know you could end up having six or seven and then you got to go back to work do you know what I mean you got to go back to work and I mean I remember it was a particularly hot day and we're outside Liverpool Street Station and I think Bud Ice I don't think they even sell that anymore I remember necking about seven bottles of Bud Ice and I was like oh God I feel a little bit wobbly didn't have anything to eat and I got down to the trading floor my boss Chris he was like right Simon in the office right has been buy zinc all lunch time get him on the phone Simon armsby get him on the phone not on he says yeah so blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah taking you through buy a 100 Chris sell 100 right and he went okay sold 100 and I went right you sold 100 and he was like I told you to [ __ ] buy it I like yeah I said the wrong word didn't I sorry uh Chris can you buy 200 please and just look me me wanker that's just what it's like yeah do you know what I mean but yeah no I mean it was that's the thing because you sometimes it it's so fastpaced that sometimes you do screw up yeah do you know what I mean you do screw up and it can cost money and other I mean you know with the lead ended up making money he was so aggressive when he was selling it that other people and other companies are listening to this what's going on in the lead Market yeah thinking blind me we better get on the back of this do you know what I mean so they get their orders coming and we managed to quietly buy back we made a few quid out of it but yeah it's it's it's so fastpaced sometimes and he just you know you forget an order or you know s something like that I mean I remember having three phones on right so I got one here one here and then I'm holding one upside down in the middle yeah right in the middle and I've got orders coming in I can't write them down yeah and it's like buy 50 buy 25 do this do that do that borrow this borrow that and I'm like I can't R this down and I've got lovely lady Janet marzola on my left ear and I was like Jen can you write down what I'm doing she went yeah sure what you doing she's over in New York she went sure yeah what you doing so I said what have we done so far so she say buom buom bum bum bum said right we've done that buom bum bum bum bum so she's clarking for me mhm why other customers orders and the C her customers orders that she's giving to me because I physically cannot write anything down do you know what I mean and he's Bonkers yeah and then it's come out and it's just like right what what the hell did we do you know cuz you don't even remember what you've done do you know what I mean cuz it's so so fastpaced and it's like a couple of I don't know I don't want to requate it to it but I've taught a couple of soldiers and ex Special Forces people right and I said to him I walk out of that market sometimes right like in a days he just full of adrenaline do you know what I mean and then you're walking down the road and you've got like secretaries and lawyers and you know I mean and you're walking down the street and you're like you got no idea what I've just been through today do you know what I mean again not to be an arrogant idiot you know mean it's really stressful it's the the heightened you know it's like the uh what it over stimulating environment just too like there's noise there so much input so much output at the same all at the same time all at the same time and they said to me yeah she said that's what we like when we come back we walk Mississippi Street you just look at people and go you got no bloody idea you mean I mean I remember sitting there on the train trying to read the even standard like this yeah do you know what I mean just full of adrenaline and it's yeah it's it's but I mean again that there's lot of culture always on the pie sometimes you need it to just Cal kind of fusy yeah yeah but you just calm back down again and just try and relax do you know what I mean cuz you wouldn't be a very nice person if you turned at home you know I mean full of adrenaline you got to get rid of it how how was it stepping away from that environment then eventually like when when things s shifted for I I I missed the people I missed the banter I mean that was just brilliant mhm it's it was like being at school with your best mates right but you're getting paid MH do you know what I mean it was absolutely brilliant and you I mean I work with some people that just so stupid ly funny M so super fast do you know what I mean with their put downs and stuff like that I mean God I remember uh puffy we called him staypuff because he's staypuff Marshmallow Man from Ghostbusters right his nickname is staypuff and he's a big guy John right this is when the Nintendo weird first come out he going back a while and he comes into the office and he goes ah he goes my M bought me one of them Nintendo Wiis right he goes and got the we fit bowled we like right and he goes yeah I put it on for the first time last night he goes I stood in it and then someone shouted out what' it say one at a time please just instantly instantly and of course then you just you know everyone's in hysterics yeah absolutely in hysterics I mean um Jaws again guy I'd love but Jor just absolutely hilarious the things that he would come out with m i mean just you're killing yourself you're killing yourself laughing CU you just think GE mate come on switch your brain on there's environments can be so fun and addictive almost you know gives you gives you energy you know you feed off each other's energy especially in an environment of that especially because you you have that that banter and that sort of familyes vibe because you're all doing the same sort of thing and the thing is like the average retail Trader and we'll finish up with these last two three questions here but like the average retail Trader finds themselves alone a lot of the time they don't know other Traders they're not in those environments whatsoever at most in their own they have an office at home for example yeah so how important would you say it is to sort of even if they are other retail Traders but how important is it to get to know other Traders so people who understand what you're going through understand the sort of endeavor you're trying to go down see that's a toughy interesting that's a tpic why well because if you're a professional and you're working with professionals then you all understand it to the same level right retail totally different yeah totally different because you could have had someone that's been training for 6 months or six years and I don't know a year five years whatever something like that and this one's been through a lot and this one hasn't and this one tells this one don't do this or don't do that and this one's like well why can't I do this and why can't I do that and I don't know I said earlier switch everybody else off and just solely concentrate on yourself yeah because you you don't want to get swayed by other people's opinions MH do you know what I mean it's different if you're the one that's generating those opinions you know what I mean that's a totally different story but for me yes it could be a very lonely experience MH but I'd rather it be a lonely experience and make my own mind up then have loads of bloody people sitting there talking to me and confusing me and I don't know what to do because he said that and he said that and she said this and she said that well what do I do MH it's confusing that's fair so cuz ear you mentioned earlier about and this is kind of off off that topic but you mentioned that you were in a position where they wanted you for a job but they said to you you know you got three months to make it work how helpful or not helpful was that to have this you know because a lot of the time in trading we say no time restraints don't put time restraints on yourself but also equally having pressure and applying pressure can also make diamonds right so like that it can push you to do best like how important was that for you to be pushed in that way to sort of Excel and make sure you could fit that role if that makes sense yeah there was pressure there was it pressure from choose no it's pressure from the old man do you know what I mean you do what you told stick your head down get on with it you'll be okay but again it's at the age of 16 I mean I didn't know what I was doing do you know what I mean I didn't know know growing up did you think lead following on into your dad's field you know no never never I mean that was the thing when you're a kid you're you're aware like what's your old man do for a job do you know what I mean and it's just like mine's a mechanic mine works for BT mine works at the post office mine does this mine does that uh my dad's a Trader what's that I don't know buys and sells metal oh okay or like a scrap dealer no not CU I'm a scrap dealer no he goes to work in the city in a suit and then I literally didn't have a clue what it was do you know what I mean and he didn't really prepare me for it either CU I don't think there really is a preparing do you know what I mean you have to see if you can do it and it's I mean that's the thing with a city is very much there's your deep end off you go can you do it or not do you know what I mean um so did I feel pressure at the age of 46 I can't remember I can't remember I most probably did mhm but yeah do I remember that emotion or something like that no do you know what I mean like somebody once asked me to an interview do you remember your first trade I'm like mate no do you know what I mean no idea on Bloody thousands of them got no idea MH you know it's yeah it was it was I suppose it there was pressure but I didn't you know I don't remember it yeah you know as a final point then what would be your biggest advice to Traders out there especially knowing that it's probably the largest retail audience you know podcast wise a large retail audience what would be your message to that retail audience what I'd say is look down this camera so your camera and then you just deliver that message you know whatever it is you full rain don't believe what you read don't believe what you see don't watch YouTube I appreciate this going up on YouTube so I totally can feel the irony coming out there um form your own opinions learn the rules of the game understand it is a game take your ego out of trading time doesn't exist price levels exist ranges exist use that forget basically 99% of what's out there because it's just a pile of [ __ ] and I would just sincerely say good luck I love that I love that well Paul has been absolute pleasure and you I really really you know hopefully maybe we can do something again in the future I will invite you back they might not have invited you back but I will oh that' be good then I'll I'll I'll definitely go full bowel mode prepare ourselves everyone at home crash helmets that's we ready drop a comment of your biggest takeaway from today's episode yeah know drop a comment with what you would like to hear from Paul next time potentially but the links for well there won't be many links maybe a website U Paul Scot fx.com there we go that will be in the description below so make sure you check that out but until next time everyone take care