Hello and welcome to the Practical Leadership Podcast, where leaders share their tools and practical advice to make you a better leader today. My name is Max Koslovsky, and I'll be your host for today. And today we have a legend in the beverage and coffee industry. He's an entrepreneur, a founder, CEO, advisor. He's currently the CEO of a company called Drill Sage, which is a little bit outside of what he had been doing, it seems.
One of the things I love about our guest is that he's always willing and happy to... to help others, whether it's business advice, mentoring, coaching, supporting, or just doing a cameo on somebody's television commercial. He's just always an advocate of small businesses and entrepreneurs. So thank you, Chad McNair, for being here with us today.
Great to be with you, Max. Thanks for the invitation. Well, I believe this is going to be a fantastic conversation. You've got so much experience.
One of the things we like to do in the podcast is talk to people that have been there and done that. And ideally, they are there and doing it. And I couldn't think of a better person to have on the show.
Thank you. So to get us started today, what is something good that's been happening in your world or something that has happened in the last few months? I guess just it's really on the personal side. I'm married to just a great gal that I met in a singles class at a church over in Houston back in the 80s. And she's a pediatrician here in town, Dr. Shelley McNair with Southwest Children's Center.
And she. has been working awfully hard through the pandemic. As you probably heard, medical practices have been, it's been very difficult. And they've got one of the founders, the last of the original four founders retiring.
And there are a number of things just from a business aspect that have been very challenging, as well as a pandemic, and trying to manage everything around that. And I guess it's rather exciting to me that she's got some help coming. They've hired three more doctors. One of the, she and her...
partner were able to bring in a third partner out of their team of doctors. And so she's getting a lot of help. And to me, that just makes my life a lot better when she's doing well and her practice is doing well. She's still working probably over 60 hours a week most weeks and running a small business. She and her partner run that.
So for my world, it changes when things get good here at home. And so I'm really hoping that she can. give some of this work to some of these new doctors that are coming in.
And one of the challenges with marrying somebody that's five years younger is I sold my company, but I have to keep doing something for at least a few more years until she can sell her interest in the practice. So anyway, she's got about another three years to go. So I've jumped back into the business world, but it is a big deal.
If things are good at home, things can be good everywhere. And so I'm very happy for her and her practice. It's been a rough couple of years that that ship seems to be riding.
And there's a there's a lot of a lot of good things happening there. So it makes my life better. Thank you for sharing that.
One of the things that I that I noticed and have noticed is, you know, you went directly to to another person and how they are doing and what's going on in their world. I am sure that there's a lot of things happening. You're involved in a lot of companies.
You founded a lot of companies. You support a lot of other companies as well. It was just amazing that you, you know. Decided not to talk about anyone else.
You focused on, I'm sorry, you didn't talk about yourself. You focused on your wife in this case. So where does that kind of like, hey, focus on others come from?
How did that happen for you? It was really modeled at home. I grew up in a very wonderful, loving home. We moved a lot.
My dad just kept getting better jobs. So every two, three, four years we were moving. And so constantly having to move into a new school, new church. new environments.
And if you don't learn how to get along with people, you just kind of end up left out. And so the wonderful thing about moving a kid around a lot is they do learn. And I did learn how to get along with other people, but I saw my parents, especially.
Wherever we went, they would jump in and meet neighbors. They would get involved in organizations, in the community, in the church, in the things that mattered to them. And I just saw that they knew.
are very giving people. My grandparents, I was fortunate to know my grandparents up through college, all four of them, and even knew three of my great-grandparents quite well. When you have that kind of heritage and that kind of, you know, it's not just a heritage, you got people looking at you and with great expectations and teaching you things like manners and how to treat other people and how to serve others and so on. So I think a lot of it came from that. It's just seeing it modeled.
So kind of those were your, where you kind of started, right? You originated by learning from family members, like a lot of great leaders do. So when did you first kind of come aware of a concept of leadership? Like where you recognize that there's like leadership and then there's... other things?
Was there ever a moment where like, okay, I want to be a leader. I want to do this. Or was it just kind of what you did at home?
How was that for you? There were a couple of things that kind of formed that. I think, Max, again, I go back to family. To see my parents and my grandparents be involved in their community, care about others.
They showed extraordinary leadership. They didn't sit back and wait for somebody else to do things. I saw this especially in my mom and dad.
We were the first ones there at church to help set up chairs. We were the last ones there to clean up afterwards. I've got just a fun little story. When I was in probably fourth or fifth grade in Lombard, Illinois, it was a big rainstorm.
And all three of us kids were in the car with my mom. And the lights went out at an intersection not too far from our house. And my mom pulled off to the side of the road, put on her blinkers, and got her umbrella out there and stood in the middle of the intersection directing traffic. And— It's just that kind of leadership.
Leadership, I think, is like so much of life. It's caught, not necessarily taught. Just observing those kind of things where you don't wait for others.
If you see something that needs to be done, jump in and do it. That's kind of the environment that I was raised in. I was blessed to be able to do that.
I also got involved with the scouting organization very young. At eight years old, I joined Cub Scouts. My older brother was in scouting. My mom was a den leader.
So I got involved in that, went through scouting and was involved in that organization for 45 years. At 15, I started working at a Boy Scout camp after my first, just before my freshman year in high school, all the way through high school and college for eight summers, I worked at that scout camp. And you learn an awful lot about leadership when you're working with different people in different environments and having to do an awful lot of things.
So there's a variety of things. I also started working in a sporting goods store when I was 15 and had to learn how to deal with people and help. people. And so I think a lot of that, just starting at a young age, even before that, mowing lawns. And my dad would insist that we do it right.
And when he'd walk home from the train station in the evenings, if my brother and I hadn't done a yard right, or we haven't swept off the driveway for Mrs. Leonard or trimmed right for Mrs. Harrison, we were back out there before dinner and we did it right. And so I saw my dad lead in our family. I saw our family lead in the community.
My dad was a business executive for many years and actually owned a company. That was his work. He bought a company with some other guys, ran that. He's been on the board of a number of different things.
And so both mom and dad were very much leaders. And so just, you know, you can't put a price on that, Max, just to be able to see that from the earliest, youngest ages to see that modeled it. And there's just an expectation.
You are going to go. and do things to help other people. And we're going to lead.
They didn't put it that way. We just did it. Yeah.
So a lot of the values that I see that you kind of exhibit came from observation, right? Like they were not written. They were not discussed.
They were just done. They were modeled. They were active and they were in play.
How do you think that that leadership style has impacted you and your capability to grow, build, sell businesses? I think very much, you know, I guess there's also the fact that at a young age, I started shooting up and became taller. And so even though I was new in schools, it wasn't too long before I was kind of picked to be the captain of the, you know, gymnasium basketball team or whatever, you know, there's a lot written about tall people being given extra opportunity. And I saw that in my life.
I mean, people thought I was older than I was. And when people think you're older, they just have expectations. They don't.
ask you whether you're willing to do these things. They just say, here, go do this. And so I think there was some of that as well.
I'm sorry. I was just going to make a comment now that I've interrupted. So you just mentioned like two things that kind of just cemented your destiny, right? So I remember reading a stat a long time ago that it was a large percentage of top CEOs in the US were 6'2 and taller.
Yeah. At all. That was one of your destinies.
And the other one where that they were in scouts, right? So they were high up in the ranking and scouts and taller. The destiny was made. Well, there's a lot to be said for those things.
And I know that there's a lot of people that want to even the playing field and say that, you know, and, you know, there's a lot of great short leaders. I mean, you know, I'm not saying that you have to be tall, but I do think that when you, when you are taller or bigger or look older, there's. you know, among your peers, you tend to get pulled out as being, well, we're going to put it on you. And so you kind of get forced into leadership and it's just kind of the way the world works. And once you're forced into it, you know, you kind of learn to accept it and you kind of expect it even.
So I think, you know. There's all sorts of things that play into that, but I do think those things are interesting sort of societal forces that we don't really understand fully, maybe. I think it's interesting, right? Sometimes things play in our favor and kind of guide us, create a path for us. And as you said, right, sometimes you are shorter, but that doesn't mean you can't become a great leader.
Just look at Napoleon, but it would be a different path. So. Understanding that you got to see what leadership was without necessarily calling it it, but it was just that. The standards, high standards were set, high expectations were set.
What is your philosophy or approach to leadership, right? So I'm guessing, you know, well, I know you mentor several companies and several entrepreneurs, and I'm sure you've built leadership teams. What is your approach when wanting to teach leadership and when you want? others to develop their skill? You know, I think I like to think of things in the simplest form I can get to.
And I think, Max, to answer that, I really think that the basic philosophy that I would point to is to love God and serve others. That's in my personal life, in my business life, in my leadership. And I think, you know, I'm fortunate to have been brought up in a family of faith and to have a faith that...
eventually became my own. I just trust that there's a good God out there and he wants good things for me. And when you wake up every morning knowing that and knowing that I'm expected to be a fountain of blessing, a river of blessing to others, that's kind of my job today. So if I love God and really focus on trying to live in a way that Christ taught, you know, loving and serving others and then go out and do that, great things come.
And when you... put other people in front of yourself, there's a real attractiveness to that. And it's not manipulative.
It's just that people like to be taken care of. And people like to know they're important. People like to know that they're valued. And so I think that's a big part of it.
I think the other part of it is I've had good leaders in my life that have been very patient with me at times. Now, there were times they were very impatient when they needed to be coaches and others. But seeing that model now, seeing patient leadership, that they would stop and help coach me, try to help me work through a problem rather than pointing the finger and that sort of thing. And that really, I think when a leader is willing to serve others, when their foundation is strong and secure and they know who they are and they're comfortable in their skin, I think that carries a team a long way. And I, again, I've just.
I'm blessed beyond imagination with the number of great people that I've been able to have in my life that have shown me those sorts of leadership skills. So we would all love to have, you know, either Chad McNair as our leader. We would like to have him as our boss or we would like to have him as our team member. But there's only one Chad. So how do we build a team around people that are going to be displaying some of these great leadership characteristics?
How do we help build them kind of like other? As you mentioned, other coaches and mentors helped you. How do we help others become that? Well, I guess another blessing that I enjoy is a bit of an extrovert.
In fact, when Shelly and I went through engagement counseling, it was really interesting. It was a wonderful older couple that had counseled with hundreds of young couples through engagement counseling. And we did the Taylor-Johnson testing and all that personality tests and so on. And this fella said, now, Chad, you need to understand something. When you go to a party, Shelly's not going to want to go.
You're going to want to go. And then you're going to want to stay there. And you're going to want to be the last person to leave. And she's going to want to leave as soon as you get there. And by the way, her being a doctor, everybody's going to want to talk to her because they've got some pain or an uncle or whatever.
And you'll be standing over in the corner and everybody's talking to her. And so it's interesting. You know, it sounds silly, but that little bit of advice was so good before we got married so that when we went places. You know, she understood that I'm going to want to get there and I'm going to want to hang out. And I, I understood that she's going to want to go home and be at home.
So anyway, there's, there's a sense of, as a, as an extrovert, somebody that likes to talk to people. I think that's enormously helpful to any entrepreneur, anybody trying to build something because you can't do it alone. And so I'm a, I'm a big believer in networking. From the time I was young, I used to.
really enjoy hanging out with people that were older than me as much or more than I enjoyed being with people my own age. And I was fortunate again in scouting. That's one of the beauties of scouting is you put very successful, great men with young boys, and you teach them how to be young men.
And you take them out into industry and government, and you go out and give these kids a chance to explore all these things. And so as an extrovert, I don't have any problem picking up the phone and asking somebody for lunch or say, can we meet for coffee? And Max, I don't know, I'm sure the number of times that I've met people at a coffee shop or restaurant.
is in the tens of thousands over my career. In fact, it's difficult sometimes to find a date on the calendar for coffee or lunch because I fill them up almost every day. And I really, I do that with people that I'm mentoring, people that ask me, you know, I try to be generous with that time. But then I also make it a point to go and meet with people that I think are interesting, that I can learn from.
And so I tell a lot of these young people. like to mentor college students, and I've done that a lot. And I really encourage them to do a number of things, to reach out to people, invite people to coffee and lunch. And if they're inviting somebody older, I always encourage them to be the first to pick up the tab, reach for the tab. If they're a typical older person, they won't let you get it, but you need to do that.
You need to tell people that I value your time and be ready, be prepared to pick that up, but just invite people. and then respect their time and ask questions and that kind of thing. People are so generous with their time.
It's unbelievable how much people are willing to help somebody who really wants to learn, people that want to do things. When I started my business, Aspen, back in the early 90s, I went out and asked seven different guys to sit on my advisory board. And I just went and asked them.
So when I meet these young entrepreneurs, young professionals that are trying to build their own career, their own brand of themselves, and so on. I encourage them to put together an advisory board. And I tell them, don't be afraid to ask people.
You'd be surprised at how many people are willing to give up a half day, once a quarter, to come to an advisory board meeting and that kind of thing. So I think that's a long answer to a short question, Max. But there's a theme there of inviting other people into your life. And if you're an introvert, I understand that's very difficult.
But the blessings from that are just innumerable. Thank you. I think that is... excellent advice. And I'd like to dive a little bit deeper into that because I'm sure our audience will really like to understand how to do it.
I think that the idea of building a board and having people support you is becoming a little bit more popular. So let's see if we can dive a little bit deeper. So how does someone that is interested in getting the support and help from, you know, wiser, older people, where do they start, right? where does somebody start?
How do they identify who they want on their board? How do they connect with them and ask them to be part of that? And how are some things on how you run it?
And I'm sure you have some other things you'd like to share on that front. Sure. And I'll try to keep this short because it's a rather, it can be rather complex.
It's simple in its basic form. But so when I started my advisory board for Aspen Beverage, I went to seven different guys I knew. Guys like Ricky Cooper with Cooper Sotheby's Real Estate here in town.
David McGee, who was a banker. These are guys I knew through church or the community. And they're all people I knew. Then I knew that they loved me.
They loved Shelly and that they would want success in my life. And that they'd be willing to share their advice. Now, these guys weren't food and beverage guys. A couple of them had been in manufacturing.
One of them, Larry Amstutz, used to work at Pace Pecani Sauce. And then he started his own Pecani Sauce company. So he had good food manufacturing background.
And for the most part, they were business guys. One was a lawyer. So- At any rate, I just went and asked these guys. And in a matter of a week, I asked these seven guys if they would be willing to come and serve on an advisory board with me and meet four times a year and be available for me to pick up the phone and call them when I had a question or a problem or take them to lunch or coffee to help ask about the business.
And amazingly, all seven of them said yes. Part of it was that I put three older guys on the board and four younger guys. And the four younger guys were.
extraordinarily excited about being able to be in the same room as the three older guys. Larry Amstutz, who had a lot of business experience. Merle Smith, who ran KCI. He was the one that took it from 20 million to 200 million and had his own company now called Prism Technology.
And then another fellow, AC Johnson, who had been in the personnel side of things with the Air Force and now was running the ministry. These younger guys really wanted to sit in the shadow of these older guys. So once they got the older guys to commit, younger guys were on board.
So I think. Part of it, again, is just so much of life is just action. Just do it.
You know, I think that's a lot of it. So let me just summarize this because this is really cool, practical stuff, right? So who do you know that cares about you and wants you to succeed? Figure out about seven in your case, who are seven of these people?
And you were kind of strategic in that, right? Who is the biggest name that I can attract that can kind of serve like your anchor for everybody else? It's like nowadays, right? Hey, if Chad McNair is on your board, there's going to be a lot of people that are going to be interested in being part of that board as well, because they're going to want to hear what Chad has to say and how they're going to support them. So figure out who those anchors could be.
And they don't necessarily have to be in the industry. It sounds like you identified a variety of skills. You didn't just say, hey, everybody needs to be here.
But it also sounds like there was variety in that group. You didn't have three lawyers. You had one, right? You had different skill set. Was that by design or that's just how it played?
It was somewhat by design. And once these guys said yes, then I kind of gave each one of them a different sort of area that I wanted them to be thinking about and helping me with. AC Johnson was personnel.
Larry Amstutz was operations. Merle Smith was management executive. You know, I was a one-man company with a seven-man board meeting in my dining room for our first board meeting.
So, you know, this was dreaming big. And it's kind of like, who was it? Wayne Gretzky, who said, you know, you don't skate to where the puck is. You skate to where it's going to be.
And I tell a lot of young people, I said, don't imagine yourself as a two-person company or a one-person company. Imagine yourself as a 50-person company and start planning, preparing. and thinking that way so that when you get there, you don't come off the rails.
So behave like the person you want to be, build a business like the one you operate, like the business you want to become, not the one that you are. So kind of start raising your standards and behaving in a way that is above where you are now to be ready for that opportunity. And some of that you can't afford. You can't go get the best lawyer. You can't get the best account.
You can't afford the best software, but you can kind of. to plan for it and know that when you do get the resources, you can go in and if you plan ahead, it just makes transition much better. So I'd like to interrupt you one more time here because there's something else that you mentioned that I think we really need to take a note of. So one is, you know, you've got this, these powerful, smart, capable people in your living room when you're a one person business, but you were not shy for a moment.
And it sounds like you were very confident in your approach. So you didn't wonder whether you deserved it or not. You didn't wonder whether it was the right thing.
You just had a lot of faith and confidence in what you were doing that allowed you to do it. And you took the action, which I'm thinking, wow, how many people would question whether these people would be willing to support them and help them? But you didn't. You said, I'm doing something great.
They're going to want to help. Yeah. And it wasn't very great at the beginning. I mean, it was a, you know, I started this business with a thousand dollars and a promise to my wife and the Lord that I would never borrow money for. And in 24 years, we never borrowed a diamond.
I never let those guys invest in it either because I always thought it was too risky. And so, you know, I didn't want to risk a friendship over, over an investment, but no, I just, yeah, I just did it. I went and put it together.
Now, the thing that I did, Max, was I, I didn't want to put together a board of yes men. I didn't want to put together. a board just to tell people I had a board. I really wanted something out of it.
I needed advice. I didn't have any partners. When I was trying to decide what color to make the logo, I didn't have somebody to shout to the next room, hey, come and look at this.
So this advisory board was so good. And just for maybe some of the younger people or people that haven't been involved with boards before, if you have a stock company that trades stock and you have shares and that kind of thing, you're going to have a fiduciary board, a legal board. In my case... And I was the only owner.
So I put together an advisory board, which is just, there's no fiduciary. There's no legal responsibility there. It's just for advice. But having said that, the commitment I made to them is that I would listen to them. I would write down what they suggested, and I would start the next meeting each quarter with the suggestions that they made at the last meeting of what I'd done about it in order to honor their time and their efforts and their wisdom.
Rather than just blowing it off and saying, well, I can handle this on my own. So I showed them that I cared. I prepared agendas before every meeting and a very crisp agenda.
And we stayed on that so that we could start on time, finish on time. And I would typically, when I first did it, I did it more over the lunch hour. But then people preferred, since they had to travel across town, some people had from out of state. But we would start in the morning and go through lunch. Once we brought lunch in, we'd stay around the table and eat at the table.
And that was usually a time to kick around big ideas. where there wasn't so much presenting. It was more of an open conversation while we were having lunch. So from a practical standpoint, having that agenda, starting at 8.30 in the morning, you're going to finish at one. You stay with it.
You have all of your critical topics. I would have a format that I would work through each time so I didn't have to reinvent the wheel every time. But I would send that out. I would send the financials out and any of the important issues and documentation to the board ahead of time so they could study all that. So I didn't have to take time in the meeting in order to.
help get them up to speed. And it made for very effective board meetings with great attendance. I ended up changing the board out after a period because I needed more technical expertise in certain areas.
So I had three gentlemen that stayed with me for the entire 23, 24 years, but I had 11 total that served on that board during that time. But let me stop you right there. Quick commercial. You can download the summary of this conversation at practicalleadership.com.
or like we like to say it here, practicaleadership.com. You're going to get a summary of this conversation. And I'm going to ask Chad to see if we can dive a little deeper, maybe see one of his meeting agendas and provide something you guys could use right off the bat. If he doesn't have one of his old agendas, we will kind of work together, get you something you can use starting tomorrow to make, you know, to start putting together a board of these high power individuals.
And I'm already thankful that they're giving me an hour or two of their time. I can't. ask them for much more than that.
And you said, no, I gave them a job. I gave them direction. You told them what you wanted them to be thinking about for you.
So it wasn't just like, hey, show up and see what comes up in your mind. You had already prepared them for the meeting, helping them understand your needs and what you were trying to get from them. So that to me is kind of like great, great leadership.
And just because you were young and in the process of growing and learning didn't mean that you couldn't say, hey, what do I need? You were very intentional and you were very purposeful in what you were trying to accomplish and get from those meetings. Then you said something else. You didn't take it lightly. And just like you asked them for something, you set up front what you were going to do for them, right?
Because nobody likes to waste their time. And you set up front, hey, I'm going to commit. I'm going to write down. I'm going to write down what you say.
I'm going to write down your suggestions and I'm going to keep you up to speed with the progress. And you made it very professional from day one, which gave them a lot of confidence. And then they knew that they weren't wasting their time.
So they were willing to give you more of it. And it also sounds like the time that they gave you also expanded and they were kind of more and more vested. And they're probably be super proud to see the progress and to see the growth. One more thing you said that I really like is that.
Even though you had an agenda and you stuck to it, you also gave yourself some time to do some brainstorming, big thinking, big crazy ideas. Because I believe those big crazy ideas are super valuable. But you can't be spending all your time on that, but you need to spend some time on that.
And you found that lunch was a great time to do it. And the last thing you said about that so far is don't be afraid to recognize that you might need something different. So. If you feel like there's some expertise that you need that you're not getting and you need them, don't be afraid to look for them and change and evolve your board.
Because at the end of the day, and this is kind of my interpretation of a little bit of what you're saying, right? So you're not just trying to build a great successful business for you, but you're having an impact in a lot of people's lives, their families, their well-being, and obviously the community that you're serving. So keeping that in mind, it kind of gives you the right to say, hey, Bob.
We might not need you on the board anymore. I need somebody else that has the expertise that is more aligned with allowing the company to grow. So tell me about that process or that conversation of recognizing that you need something different and how you become aware of it and how do you go look for it? Well, the recognition of the problem is usually pretty easy because you're dealing with issues that you just don't have the bench to deal with.
And so, especially when you're a young company that doesn't have much money and you can't hire those people. So you really need a board that can kind of help direct you and give you guidance and so on. But that conversation of, of telling somebody, Hey, really enjoyed having you on the board, but I'm going to make some changes. I mean, that, that was enormously painful because these guys all enjoyed this and they weren't doing it for the month.
I mean, for most of the first years, maybe the first decade, I couldn't. I mean, every dime I had was going back into the, I went 26 out of the first 36 months with this business without even paying myself anything. I mean, it wasn't, there wasn't money floating around.
And I paid myself so little that my accountant said, no, you really need to increase your pay or the IRS is going to come after you for running a business and not paying yourself anything. And so, you know, I always paid myself very little. I tried to pay my people pretty well. But it wasn't like the board was. And then when I finally got good enough at it, I'd pay them $100 a meeting.
I eventually got to $200 a meeting, but I never really had much to offer them. And, you know, $1,400 for a meeting. It was a lot of money to me back in those days. I mean, it was, you know, but when I couldn't afford to do it, and I always have a great Christmas party for them, and Shelly would host that here.
She's a wonderful cook, and everybody enjoyed that. Always have a nice Christmas gift or a Harry and David Tower treats. I'm trying to give some practical sides of this advisory board if people wanted to do it. But what I did do, Max, was when we finally sold the company, we got all 11 of those guys and their wives together at Silo Restaurant. We had a...
big time of just sharing stories. I had one or two, like one of my key executives there with me, his wife and Shelly was there. And we just had a wonderful time of celebrating the run that we'd had for 20 some years together as a board, the board to a man all said that they want me to go start something else so they could all get back together.
So they could keep being a board. These guys ended up being good personal friends and doing business together and that sort of thing. But at that, at that dinner that night, um, Max, I handed out over a million dollars worth of checks to those guys.
And it was a chance for me to finally reward them in some way because I wouldn't let them invest in it. I couldn't pay them what they were worth. But at the end of the day, you know, we shared that with them kind of based on their tenure and how many years they were on the board and some of those sorts of things. But, you know, it was a lot of fun to be able to do that. I had the wife of one board member that came up and just said, you just doubled our retirement account.
So, you know, there's an enormous reward in bringing people along that are willing to do it for nothing. And most of them. wouldn't, you know, they didn't want to accept the check.
They said, that's not why I did it. I said, I know it's not why you did it, but you know, I want to say thank you in a meaningful way. One of them insisted that I, he just would not take it.
And he had me send it to his alma mater. So it was an interesting group of very humble guys that weren't in it for that. They just enjoyed the process.
They enjoyed watching something being built. And I think they really did appreciate somebody that would listen to their advice and put their advice to work. And then they could watch and see how they're doing. advice made an impact, not only on me, but eventually what was 130 employees.
And so I think there's something rewarding about that. And so young people shouldn't be afraid about asking people into their life, but you've got to respect that. And we never missed a quarterly board meeting in 23, 24 years.
Never once did we miss a quarterly board meeting. And so the consistency, the honor, the preparation ahead of time to make sure everybody knew what the agenda was and what we needed to cover. the critical issues and so on. I think that all played into that.
That is wonderful. You know, one of the recurring themes here is purposeful, right? You yourself are purposeful in what you're doing, both as a purpose for the organization, the purpose of the activity and what you're trying to build. And you surrounded yourself with other people that were also driven by their personal purpose or their personal why.
It wasn't just about the money for them. It's about how helping others made them feel, how contributing to bigger cause, what it did for them and how that made them feel all the way to the end, right? Like all the way to the end.
Cause when you're not paying someone, you know, they stick around for something other than money. And ultimately the final proof was when you actually had a check for them and they didn't want to take it, which just kind of consolidates that, you know, they were driven by the good that they were doing and not, not necessarily driven by money, which is, which is probably. the best of all worlds, right? Doing things because they're the right thing, not just because of what you are getting paid.
So let me ask you this question, because I'm just looking at the flip side of that for a second. What do you think about like professional board people, like someone that, you know, like you actually have to pay to bring up to your board? Is that, I mean, would you ever consider something like that? Or do you feel that, you know, you'd rather get someone that is not going to be interested in the money?
How does that work in your world nowadays? Well, I guess, are you asking from my perspective about being on a board? No, no, no, no. Like your perspective on, you know, there's a few actual new services out there where they try to pair you up with boards. Boardsy and that kind of thing.
Yeah, exactly. What is your take? Is it like, hey, you should still look into that because you're going to find the expertise that you're looking for. Or like, you know, don't pay anyone that wants money.
Go find someone that is willing to do it for free. What's your take? Kind of depends on the business.
I think, Max, you know, when you're a small business and it's a family deal, you know, there are people that come around you and care about that and just enjoy the ride. You get to a certain point, though, especially in these fast-paced technology companies and that kind of thing where you just need. advice and counsel that is difficult to maybe foster from within.
You also need that networking and connections at times. And there are certain people that can bring that to bear. For me, I've asked beyond a number of boards and I've been on a number of boards, but they're all non-paid positions. And the places where I really like to be on the boards is the small entrepreneurial businesses where I see these young people with a lot of talent. and a lot of excitement, a lot of energy.
And I just love coming into their world and trying to help direct them. I just got a text just before we got on the phone here today from a young man that's doing a neat business here in town. He's taking spent brewer's grain and drying it from the breweries.
He takes that grain. It's got all the carbs taken out of it. There's a lot of protein.
He dries it, grinds it into a powder, and he's selling it. the Pioneer Flour Mills. U.S. Foods is making a hamburger bun out of it.
And I've got one of my former board members is involved with a very large, well-known craft brewery here in Texas. And I kind of coached him through putting together a PowerPoint presentation on going and talking to them about taking some of their grain and turning it into some different products. And we worked over a couple of weeks and months and got this PowerPoint together. And then I was able to make the introduction to my former board member.
And. I just got a text that says they're planning to launch their first product under that brand tomorrow. And so it's exciting for me to help kind of facilitate that sort of thing. And I don't want anything for it. I just want the joy of watching people succeed.
And it's not only good for his company. This other, the brewery, has got to get a really, really neat product in what's called upcycled products today. It's like non-GMO and all this.
There's a new title now. You'll start to see it called upscale where people take. I was like, so that's not really answering your direct question.
Boardsy and that kind of thing, I think there's a place for some of that. I think too many people reach out to that too early or without really considering the alternatives. One of the things I tell almost every person I meet with that's starting a new business, there's the money. If you get money too easy and too fast, it can ruin. And it's because you will go for the easy way out.
You'll go and hire a boardsy person rather than really working at trying to figure out what you need and trying to develop your network to do it. And it's a lot harder that way. It seems like it, but it's a much more stable and I think sturdy way to approach things.
I was fortunate to be able to go to a conference a number of years ago. It's called No Man's Land. There's a book out there that's a well-known consultant wrote that book.
It's interesting. Business is very simple. And so this is an original with me, but you've got the market, you've got the model, you've got management and money.
And what I tell folks that I'm trying to help is that if you get the market right, and you get the model right to address that market, and then you get the right people to help you with that, the money will fall in place. It will. And I know some people say, well, that's crazy. I've been trying to raise money for years.
If you have a really good idea that's backed by a really good model, and backed by really good people, the money can be found. And so if you reverse that and go and try to raise money first, before you really know the market going after you, before you really have a model to address that market, before you really got a good team in place, it can be the ruination of a good idea because money can do a lot of damage in a hurry. It's like you didn't have the fundamentals in place to really build something solid on top of. And you kind of skipped over that step thinking that money would help you get there instead of having that figured out on the get-go. So let me shift gears just a little bit here.
And I'm going to try to see if I can get super practical here. Is there a tool, a model, a system that you love using to help your team or that you use to work with your team? to help them accomplish and succeed that you're like, yes, there's a model of thought or action or activity planning. Is there something out there that you're like, this is my go-to? You know, I would go back and start with the networking to begin with.
That's probably the most important tool for any young company. That networking is just absolutely valuable. And I'd call that probably the biggest tool in the toolbox. But I also think great communication is very important.
Having regular meetings, regularly scheduled meetings. having enormous discipline in not just meetings, but the whole way you run the company, but especially in meetings to start on time, to finish on time, to have expectations that people are going to do the work and show up with that work at the next meeting and that sort of thing. So I would have weekly management meetings every week. And I would have quarterly board meetings. I would just, just to get into a cadence and a rhythm and having expectations and say, oh, you didn't get to it.
Well, that's okay. No, that was your assignment. And then, you know, once you give those assignments, coming along with people and checking up on them along the way to try to help them to accomplish those things, that's good leadership as well to not just throw it out there, but to make sure they have the tools, the resources, the knowledge, or at least know where to go to find those things so that they can accomplish their task and feel successful and meaningful in it.
in the operation and organization. I would say it's just a really good contact database of not just your customers, but your personal network, you know, so Outlook is, you know, the phone has revolutionized that I, for 25 years, I carried a month. Yeah.
I carried a month at a glance. This is a Buffalo hide for the young people. They wouldn't even know what this is.
But in fact, I've got all the calendars taken out of here, but I've got a stack that tall of calendars from 20 or 25 years of using a month at a glance. And then all my contacts, you know, we used to have to write them in the back of a book like this. And this, you know, so the phone is revolutionized, the ability to speed all that up and communicate, so on.
But keeping track of your contacts, keeping notes on when you've had conversations. I also keep a notebook. which is just a spiral notebook that I carry with me to meetings.
And I've got a stack about two feet tall of these notebooks. So when I'm on the phone, when I'm in a meeting, I'm taking notes, and it's kind of a diary of my life. And so those kind of simple tools are very, very helpful. And occasionally I'll go back through here, and I'll just flip through the last month and say, oh, I forgot to call him or I forgot to follow up on that.
And it's just good to do a lot of writing and take a lot of notes. Those are all very simple tools. And I think the other one, I guess, that I would point to is if you can learn how to use Excel. Excel is just, it was so helpful in helping me to manage my business. Yeah, we had QuickBooks and we had all these other things, but I built a very large spreadsheet that I would run my business from.
And I would model in there, you know, cash flows and all sorts of things. And then I would be able to kind of predict where we were going. That was it. enormously helpful.
And I had no particular training. I never took a course on Excel. I just kind of learned it on my own.
And so I think, you know, people can learn an awful lot if they just put their, put their mind to it. So that last part kind of goes to this principle of simplicity, right? There's, there's some really sophisticated software technologies, websites that do a lot of things for you nowadays, but, but I still like the simplicity of a spreadsheet, right?
where you get to build it based on your needs, based on your understanding of your business, without having to rely on something that might be even too sophisticated or complex to really use because it's too complex. You talk about people a lot, and I want to take a step and talk about that here in just a second. There's two things, meeting rhythms and the discipline with them, making sure that the rhythms that you set get accomplished, that people prepare for the meeting.
with the work that was assigned to them and the preparation to get the greatest value out of the meeting and sticking to the agenda, right? Sticking to the agenda and to the accountability of, it is not okay that you committed to something and you didn't deliver. There's an expectation that you will deliver on what you committed to. So keeping good discipline on those meeting rhythms, using Excel and simple tools that can help you move things forward.
Lots and lots of conversations. on your network connections and people, which sounds like something you've been doing all of your life. So here's, here's the question, right? So a lot of our people in our audience, I'm like, well, I'm not like Chad. I'm more like Shelly.
You know, I'll, I'll be in a group, but I might. That's really a very good thing, Max. I mean, sorry to interrupt, but that's a whole lot better if they're like Shelly, because she's just a hardworking farm girl on a Southern Illinois that she just, man, she puts her head down and goes, and then there's a lot to be said for that. So anyway. How do we help those that understand that you're going to accomplish anything great, you're going to need others to build a network and to network?
So what are some of your top pieces of advice? So let's say, hey, I've got a little bit of a networking event later today. How do I get the most value out of that? How do I use that to help me build these relationships?
Well, and I'm not real good at this, but... I would say the best piece of advice I can give to anybody is to be a good listener. When you go to a networking event, just go and meet that person and listen, and listen carefully and hear about them, learn who they are and show real interest in it. And then I don't have the best memory.
So quite often, like in my phone, after I walk away from that conversation, people probably think I'm rude. I'm sitting there on my phone. I'm making notes about that person I just met, their wife's name, the fact that their child had cancer, you know, all these things that help me understand who that person is.
And so when I go back and because I meet thousands of people a year and it's a little embarrassing at times when, you know, people remember a lunch we had. I don't even remember the lunch, you know, because when you do a lot of things. it can be difficult to remember.
So those notes really helped me a lot. They helped me connect with people. I may make a note on there.
I always try to put who referred me to that person. If somebody introduced me in my contact database on that person's name, I'll put referred by so I can go back and say, oh yeah, that's who introduced us. Because I often want to go back and thank the person for introducing us.
And it's fun to watch that thread through life to go all the way back and find out where did this good, where did this good fortune come from? That was an introduction that was made 20 years ago. And I like that kind of thing. So I find that that's a great tool. It's terrible that we become so dependent on it, but it can be used as a wonderful tool to help keep track of some of that sort of thing.
So this is what I got. First of all, it was your disclaimer to everyone. So people, if you meet Chad and you have a chance to talk to him and then you see him again and he doesn't remember you, don't take it personal. Thanks, Max.
Don't take it personal. You will have met thousands of people. Hopefully, you'll remember this podcast next time I see him. But if not, I won't take it personal either. So, you know, listen to people.
Show a genuine interest to what they have to say. So be curious and kind of explore. Take notes.
Take notes on their circumstances. Take notes on what they are talking about, their personal details, who you got connected, how you got connected, where you got connected. right? So if we've connected through ACG or VMS, you know, like that would be some notes that you'd keep. And then you said something else that I just don't think I've heard enough.
And I really appreciate it, which is being able to go back even after 20 years and saying, hey, thanks for that introduction, right? Thanks for that connection. Thanks for that referral. So you're not just looking to take, but you're happy to recognize, right? Like take the referral, but...
You're happy to recognize the people that did something to contribute to you or to your world. And I think that's something that consistently shows up as well, right? You're doing things for the greater purpose, the greater good, but you're recognizing those that contribute along the way. I mean, it is fun to see that, for me anyway, to see that golden thread that the Lord weaves through each one of our lives. And, you know, I can go back to the guy that told me.
I was unhappy at one church in a group, and I just wasn't learning enough. We weren't opening the Bible enough, I didn't feel like, and I was really thirsty for the word. And he suggested I go to another church.
Well, that kindness that he showed me in Houston back in 1982 led to me meeting my wife. And we've got three wonderful children. And I can point to a single phone call that changed my world. I love that. about life.
You know, I mean, life seems so random at times when you can go back and find how these, that, that golden thread led you to where you are today. And it's fun to go back. And I've told that that fellow a number of times, just how much I appreciate him taking the time. It was actually his dad who was a scout master in the troop that I was helping with over in Houston. His dad told him that I was looking and he was, he was kind enough to go and pick up the phone.
Just on his own and say, hey, you might be interested in this new signals class that's getting started down at First Presbyterian in Houston. So that's another very cool thing, right? Being able to take a moment to look back, connect the dots, being grateful for how things have happened in your life to have you where you are right now and how, you know, it's a miracle in many, many ways. So it's been an action-packed podcast today. I want to try to summarize a few of the big ideas.
And just a reminder for our audience. practicalleadership.com, practicaleadership.com, where you can download a summary of today's podcast and download a tool or two that you can go use and implement in your business right away. So first thing is, we really talked about how you modeled leadership through observation and actions, right? Your parents are leaders and they took action and you intrinsically learned that.
And there were high expectations. at high integrity, which just kind of was absorbed by you. And that's the only way that you knew how to do things, right? And do work.
You mentioned a few things. The simplest way possible, part of your philosophy, right? Try to find the simplest way possible to do things, love God, and serve others. You mentioned how faith and the belief that you're here to accomplish great things is part of your whole reason for existence. So you wake up with the idea of serving and helping others, not looking for the money, but you're looking for the contribution and for the help of others.
And you surrounded yourself with others that feel the same way, which is really important to find people that are like you and believe in the same things that you do. You mentioned something really cool about people having a lot of patience with you and helping you figure out and solve things without just giving you the answer. But you also thank them for when they were impatient and they were able to kind of get you snap out of wherever you were as a good coach does and get you moving forward.
We talked a lot about the advisory board. What a great concept, right? We need to have our personal board, our business board, and we want to get people that care about our success to be part of that board. And, you know, you didn't use these words, but I'm going to use them. I mean, it takes a lot of guts to go and talk to people that are of high stature and ask them to spend their time with you when you have nothing to give in return.
But you did it. and you encourage others to do it. And when they are the right people, they're going to be happy to help and they're going to be happy to contribute.
You were strategic about, hey, who are my big guys, right? Who are going to be my anchors here that are going to attract all the other board members that are going to want to be part of that because there's a big name kind of carrying the weight of the project and making it exciting for others as well. So very strategic, find the right person first that can then attract some other people to be part of your board.
Guide them. Give them a job to do. Don't just bring them to your board and then meet with them and see what they have to say the day that they show up. Ask of them something and ask of them to think about your challenges in a particular area where they can best use their knowledge and expertise. Gift them back, right?
Reward them back with your commitment by listening, taking action, and keeping them updated with the progress. And I think that that's a great way to keep them engaged and keep them wanting to help and support you because they see the progress. They see that impact that they are having.
So they're more likely to stay, make time for big ideas. And don't, you know, you've got to recognize that as your organization grows, you're going to need a different type of board member with different knowledge, different expertise. It doesn't mean that someone is good or bad, better or worse. It just means that you might need something different.
And you've got to have. the guts to let them know that you need something different and then to go and find something that is different. You talked a little bit about moving out of the board conversation. You said, hey, best advice for young entrepreneurs, find the right market, find the right model, surround yourself with the right people, and then the money will come.
If you start by getting too much money, then you might be taking some shortcuts, not setting the right foundation. which will lead to indigestion faster than starvation. And one of the big recurring themes is people, people, people, people, right?
You need people to accomplish anything great. So you've got to use, as you called it, right? The best tool out there, which is other people.
Meet them, know them, keep track of them, show your gratefulness and appreciation to them, thank them. Because that way, you know, you'll be able to do the same for them because you know where they are and what they need. And then they can help contribute to your bigger cause as well.
So being able to keep track. And, you know, one thing that kind of comes from the first part of the conversation to the end is purposeful, intentional, people-oriented, but disciplined in structure. And ultimately, be the person.
start behaving like the person that you want to be. Start to have your business behave like the business it wants to be, not the business that it is right now. And you will continue to move in that direction. You'll be ready to be that company and get you there faster.
So action-packed and lots of great content. Chad, I'm sure you've got a last, you know, you've got a couple of more thoughts that you'd like to share before we close with one kind of final question. Well, I think, you know, you're picking up on the theme. It is all about people.
And if there's ever any question, you know. what life is about. It's about people. And that's, to me, what makes life so interesting and so fun. And I have been blessed in many ways.
Going back to just a couple of more practical thoughts, just to maybe help. One of the things that I've found that makes people more memorable for me is when I can go and visit them at their office. So I would try to do that whenever I could, rather than meeting them in my office.
Because if I meet them in my office, like I've met dozens of other people that week in my office. It just doesn't stand out sometimes. And so I, I quite often just offer to meet people at their office, even before we'd go to lunch. I also like to know, you know, I like to look at their office, see what, you know, pictures of family or whatever, what I kind of like to learn about people, but that, that helps, helps me remember some things. I think something else that just talking about action here, there's a, there's a good little book that was written.
It's called the art of the start. And it talks about You know, it's good to have, you need to have a plan, but then you need to get going. And that's really a key here is you do a lot of planning, but then you start moving because the plans are not good. It's not going to work the way you planned it, but the plans give you the discipline that you need and inform the ideas so that when it doesn't work, you've already kind of thought about some of that, but you've got to start moving.
And the art of the start is really, he talks a lot about like the software industry. where they get their software together and they get it kind of working. And this was more, this was true 20 years ago, much more. They'd put it out of the market knowing that there was, it was really glitchy and there was all sorts of problems with it.
And then they just give you the 800 number and you'd have to sit there and, but they're getting money in, right? So they're collecting money while they're improving their product. So they would just get to the marketplace, get to the marketplace.
And so I think that idea of make plans, but don't. Get so wrapped up in the plans, you never take any action. You got to move. You got to make things happen.
And so go read Guy Kawasaki's The Art of the Start. Yes. Learn the importance of having a plan, but more importantly, the bias towards action. Moving forward, getting things done, not being shy, taking the risks. Because not for one second has a fear of rejection shown up here in our conversation.
So there though, Max, but you know what I tell myself? It's just the old adage. You know, that guy put his pants on one leg at a time this morning. I, you know, he's just like me. He's just like other people.
And in God's mind, God's no, you know, he sees us all as his children and equal. And so, no. And if somebody is off, put out by me asking them, that's not the person I wanted anyway. So that's fine.
I've just learned, you know, one person that I don't need to go back to. You already have the no. Right. You already have the note. All you can get it now is a yes.
Yeah. You got nothing to lose. And so I realize that it's hard for people that maybe are more introverted, but I think it's a skill that can be learned as well. Excellent. So thank you.
Thank you for that. I'm sure, you know, people are going to ask for episode two of this conversation because there's so much that can be learned from you. Just a quick reminder to our audience, practicalleadership.com.
You can download the summary. You can download the worksheets. Don't forget to, you know. Like, subscribe, share, all that good stuff, make comments.
And to kind of get us, you know, to leave us here with some thoughts, what is something that you're excited about that's coming up in your world in the next few weeks or months? Something you might be working on? Well, since we sold Aspen, we formed a family office, which is very small. I've got an assistant, Karen, who's just wonderful. And then my son, Chadley, is here in town.
He's with JP Morgan doing... wealth advising, but he's got a background in finance. So it's nice to have him around to kind of help me make some decisions and so on. But we've looked at dozens and dozens of potential investments through our family office, and we've made a couple of dozen. And so in those, there's about a half a dozen of those that are startups that I'm either involved on the board or management or both.
And so there's just so many exciting companies out there right now. The reason we were able to find so many good opportunities so quickly is, again, kind of through that network. I mean, just knowing a lot of people.
And most, everyone, with very rare exception, almost every investment that we've made has been with somebody that we knew. We had some sort of relationship with that person or that group. And some of these guys are like my buddy's sons that are now in their 30s that are now running neat tech companies or... Or... Just all sorts of neat stuff.
So it's fun to be working with the next generation. That's what I really love is young people and invest in what they're doing. But I do have another, I had a startup that I tried to raise money for.
We were trying to raise about a hundred million dollars to start an instant coffee plant called Coffee Tech here in San Antonio. pretty well had the money together, just couldn't get it off the ground. So Geen had given us 33 acres to build.
Now we've got another approach that we're going to take on that. And there's another company that may be interested in doing a joint venture with us. So I think we can really help them. They can really help us.
So that's kind of exciting. We've made these investments. I'm really enjoying being involved in these different companies.
And they're kind of all over the board. It's oil and gas drilling software. It's an aircraft company. It's recycling, spend coffee grounds.
It's real estate. It's just a lot of different things. You know, I just, life is so fun and so interesting.
I just enjoy all. It's really a fun time for me to be exploring and looking into all these different businesses. So a lot of good things ahead. As I told some folks at lunch today, it's kind of like we've pretty well made the investments we're going to make at this point.
A lot of these are, you know, two to 10 year hold times on a lot of these private equity investments. So it's kind of like we've. Put the meal in the oven and we'll see whether we were right or not when we pull it out.
But it's a lot of fun along the way. And I'm really enjoying to see a lot of fascinating industries right now. Thank you, Chad.
Thank you so much for your time today. If somebody in our audience would like to, you know, they have a great project that they'd like you to take a look at or would like to ask you a few questions. Where could they go?
Where could they try to connect with you? Dan is one way. I'm not on there every day, but I generally get to most messages. I good, bad, or indifferent.
I don't know, but almost anybody that's ever asked me to, to connect with them on LinkedIn, I said, yes. So I'm, I'm, I probably have several hundred Chinese people that, you know, I, I don't know. I just say yes to everybody because, you know, anyway, so I get a lot of me through LinkedIn and they don't always catch everything that way.
But generally, if it's somebody that references your podcast and that kind of thing, I'll, I'll typically try to get back to it when I, when I, as soon as I can. And I'm really one of the easiest guys in the world to get a hold of. I've not protected my identity very well.
And so there's a lot of information out there for anybody that wants to go to the trouble of finding out how to get a hold of most anybody can. Well, there you have it. Chad McNair, easy to find. LinkedIn. He's happy to connect.
Listen to what you have to say. He just said that he'll have lunch coffee with just about everyone. So I'm sure there's going to be some good things coming from this. Chad, I can't thank you enough. It's been a wonderful conversation.
Can't wait to see how these projects continue to evolve and all the new stories that are going to come from that and all the people that you're going to continue to influence and have an impact with. So thank you so much for taking the time and we hope to have you again soon. Thank you, Max. Enjoy the time.
We'll see you soon.