again I raised concerns internally I was sidelined I was told to shut up I received physical threats my my my my boss said I would have killed someone who said what you said in a meeting Senator Holly thank you very much Mr chairman thanks for convening this hearing thanks to each of the witnesses for being here Mr salur let me just start with you I just want to back up and make sure I understand your testimony because it seems extraordinary to me and I'm reading the letters that you've submitted from your attorney when you first contacted uh the FAA when you contacted the committee so my understanding is you worked on both the 787 and the 7 Tri 7 correct yes sir and you identified major safety concerns with both of these lines should I say and you identify you identified these to your superiors yes sir I have written many memos time after time that we have we can provide over a period of years I think yeah this is like three years for the Triple I mean 787 it's been 3 years of effort and so your concerns how who knew about your concerns how far up the the chain do you know that they went I have gone as high as Mark Stockton and Lisa fall who's a vice president the vice president of the company yes so they they were and are aware of of these major safety concerns and this is what this is what you do for a living I mean you're you're an engineer right I mean I'm an engineer I went to Quality about three four years ago and when you put your quality hat we are the eyes and ears of the public for the safety of the airplane that's how I feel about our job and so I have you know when I see concerning information or concerning uh um let's say production issues then it is our responsibility to make sure that you know if we are causing the airplane to have increased risk factor our job is to eliminate those risk factors are these planes safe right now I would not you know it's like earthquake you know it the big earthquake is coming but when when that hits the building that you know you let's say if you're talking of a building have to be prepared to uh accommodate that type of a let's say shakeup you know it has to be built properly right now from what I've seen the airplanes are not being built per spec and per requirement so you your testimony is the 787 line and the 7 7 the tri 7 line are are you think are not well they they are doing stuff that increases the risk factors okay when you increase the risk factors you know it's not just one you are doing stress concentrations that those stress concentrations like you know breaking a a paper clip you know you do it once or twice it doesn't break but it breaks at some time as as the plane gets older you know all of these things that you know you took you know you said it's not a safety issue it becomes a safety issue and the company's response to you was to threaten you threaten you sideline you you know transfer you you raised concerns about the 787 and so they transfer you transferred you to the 7 Tri 7 right well in yes initially they just cut me off of all the meetings they took my name out and then so I was just doing nothing I wasn't informed of what then they transferred me and they do it pretty stealthy oh we have a job over here we want to go over there so they move you down there and you know I come from like 40 years of engineering background so when I see Pro and I've taken a lot of stress class stress classes even though I'm not an specialist on that but when there's a problematic area that you see you can recognize so they I just want to make sure I got the sequence right so you raise these concerns you get on the 787 you get transfer transferred over to the trip 7 you raise the concerns there they ignore it in both they they haven't addressed any of these concerns that your testimony yes sir and at one point at some point they start to threaten you you're talking about your your boss calling you on your personal phone and and berating you and when did that start well that started right after when I said you know we have made over 300 plus airplanes we still don't know how to put the load and sell what what I mean by that you know if you build in an airplane I mean building a house it's like you know putting the foundation you know we have made over 300 airplanes we still changing our process like build the foundation to put the airplanes we are struggling with that because they have change the process you know from stable to unstable situation they're not building the same dams that we were building so you're causing your own problem but you don't want to admit it just force fit the problem you know forceit the misalign holes and everything else and move on and that's what they have been doing and that's what I have brought up to their attention I told my boss that I say in a in a report I said we have made 300 plus airplanes that should have been more than adequate for us to resolve these things all the problems that we've had we put Band-Aid over Band-Aid to resolve the problems and Band-Aid over Band-Aid doesn't cover it maybe we need to consider some engineering fundamentals with little bit of gdnt to figure out what the problem is and right after that he came back to my desk and he he like I said you know he made the threat and then after that he says are you in or are you out what meaning what are you in and are you out with Boeing I mean are you going to be a good good citizen and keep your mouth shut was that the that that's how I can I can interpret that he would walk by me and he said you better then he said I want you write it in writing tell me are you in or are you out put it in writing whether or not you were going to I'm in or out and what that means means are you going to just shut up right that's all that would be in if you wanted to be in you needed to be quiet you needed to stop this you know don't don't say anything more certainly don't tell the public that's how I interpreted but he told me to write it in writing and I'm trying to write it and um there was 10 emails just because I haven't received your email on this send it to me and this and that so then he's pressuring you Ian he's pressuring you and then his manipulation even got further than that you know like you I'm trying to take a class on my own time that I have to flex the time he wouldn't let me do that you know I'm trying I have a doctor's appointment he cancels my doctor appointment at the same day I mean know different mizing things to retaliate to make your life miserable and then you know I started talking to go somewhere else you know I I mean you know you you you just try to escape from that because this is hell you know that I was subjected to and then he threatens you with that and uh really with my background you know I've had some uh um you know it's it's really has made me where 3:00 in the morning I'm waking up with somebody stabbing me you know I'm still receiving psychological help to just get back on normal well it it is it is unbelievable to me that in the midst of this safety crisis at this Corporation ation that what they're doing is threatening their own Engineers whose job it is to help identify potential safety concerns and rather than saying you know what you've got a point we need to maybe do something about this they're telling you to hide it they're reassigning you they're threatening you they're trying to shut you up in the meantime I noticed this guy Dave calone I think he's the CEO I guess he's leaving at the end of the year I wonder how much he's getting paid I bet it's a lot yes a lot more than my pay I bet it's a lot more than your paycheck yeah I bet it's a heck of a lot Mr chairman thank you for for holding this hearing I think we're just scratching the surface here but this is just this is extraordinary it's just extraordinary thank you my name is Sam solapur and I'm a quality engineer at Theo I have over 40 years of I have over 40 years of experience as an engineer I'm not here today because I want to be here I'm here today because I felt that I must come forward because I do not want to see another 787 I do not want to see 787 or 7 7 crash I have serious concerns about the safety of the 787 and trip 7 aircraft and I'm willing to take on professional risk to talk about them first little bit little bit about me I came to United States in 1973 and got a mechanical engineering degree from University of Missouri where Senator Holly is from after that I worked in for companies that they were involved in space shuttle I had a friend engineer that worked on the space shuttle he was always complaining about the quality of the O-rings that we had in the space shutle s Roa boosters he was scared that they might not they might fail he raised his concerns and he was heard and uh he wasn't hurt and uh seven Brave astronauts including the teacher in space died when the Challenger O-rings ultimately failed just as he predicted at the moment I know that if I were ever in a similar situation I would have to come up and speak up I have analyzed Boeing's own data to conclude that the company is taking manufacturing shortcuts on the 787 program that may significantly reduce the airplane safety and the life cycle since 2013 there have been serious issues on the 78 C program not properly closed and thousands of gaps in its assembly of the fuse Lodge on major joints Boeing the standard says that these joint these gaps must be closed usually by a small shim or filler called the shim when they exceed 5,000 of an inch this seems very small boing's PR team like to call it the width of a human hair when you are operating at 35,000 ft details are that the size of a human hair can be a matter of a life and death in a rush to address the its bottlenecks in production Boeing hit problems pushing pieces together with excessive force to make him appear that the gaps don't exist even though they exist the Gap didn't actually go away and this may result in premature fatigue failure effectively they are putting out defective airplanes I respected I I repeatedly produced reports for my supervisors and boing management demonstrating that the gaps in the 787 not being properly measured or shimmed in two major joints of the 787 evaluating from boing from the 29 inspected airplane data I found gaps exceeding the specification that were not properly addressed 98.7% of the time I want to repeat that 98.7% of the time the gaps that they were supposed to be shimmed they were not shimmed the other issue that I found when you have these gaps and you drill through them you get some debris in the stackups this is known to be a problem you know not a good thing for the airplanes by Boeing but Boeing data also you know from the inspection of the data shows that the debris ended up in the gaps 80% of the time again you know you have debris in the gaps 80% of the time I want want to make clear that I have raised these issues over three years I was ignored I was told not to create not to create delays I was told frankly to shut up at one point boing management got sick of me and raising these issues and moved me out of the 787 program into this Tri 7 program on the trip 7 program I found problems again I found that Boeing started a new process to build the airplane without taking into the consideration of the design of the airplane and how the airplane was designed as a result I witnessed severe misalignment when the planes were assembled boing manufacturing used unmeasured and unlimited amount of force to correct the misalignment and this also weakened the weakens the airplane in the long run I literally saw people jumping on the pieces of the airplane to get them to align I call it the Tarzan effect among other proper methods again I raised concerns internally I was sidelined I was told to shut up I received physical threats my my my my boss said I would have killed someone who said what you said in a meeting and then this is not a safety culture when you get threatened by bringing issues of safety concerns I hope that your work on this issue signals the bo that they must make real changes and get back to building the airplane safely I'll be more than happy to answer your questions in preparing for this I I I did listen to One NBC news report and the this is on the 787 on this Gap and they they were reporting that the Boeing had apparently stress tested a plane 165,000 takeoffs and landings which is three times normal life they inspected 689 of the 1100 planes that are in service zero evidence of fatigue so how am I supposed to interpret that well I think boing tries to put a lot of uh misinformation out there the problem is that 165,000 was on the original airplane it did not see the excessive forces that we talking about if you haven't done the excessive force on those plane they just thrown that out there to muddy up the water so that information is so clogged up that they are not you know they saying they done 40,000 test or whatever everever you know did they put the information out there under what circumstances what airplanes what was the situation none of that is shared I have asked Mrs fall you know Lisa fall that it was on that thing two months ago three months ago when I met her I said hey you know I'm going to complain I'm complain to her about the 787 she said I'll have somebody get you the information you probably haven't seen the information I have not seen any information whatsoever as matter of fact you know like they're just thrown that stuff if you want to change the information like the 165,000 then you need to rerun that test with 165,000 with the new excessive force and show that it's good you got to show you or just one one quick question from Mr Pearson you said you had uh delivered records to the FBI first of all how did you how did you uh obtain those records and have you heard back from the FBI the records were sent to me um and from a internal whistleblower from an internal whistleblower and I provided those records to the FBI and again you know for the last couple months there's been you know talk that there's there's no records and that's obious this on the Alaskan Airline this is that Boeing apparently overwrote the video that would have shown again I've talked to Boeing they said that's just normal it's 30-day cycle and it's mainly it's not really the video is not there to document the maintenance it's really document other things potentially but it's overwritten regularly yeah I'm talking about the actual documentation that they've been saying has not been available it is available is available the FBI and it has been available for months okay thank you Mr chairman thanks uh Senator Johnson we're going to go to uh Senator Marshal and Senator Hassen and Senator Holly great thank you Mr chairman Mr salapa you've described several significant events since you you came for with your claims one was the nail and the tire you described your life was being threatened do you feel that this style of retaliation against you has been part of Boeing's efforts to silence and prevent you from sharing your story I think the retaliation somebody even was calling me on my personal phone you know time after time you know this is my personal phone you know well what were they saying or well my boss was calling me there and for 40 minutes he kind braided me and chewed me out I have a work phone he that he can use but he's calling you on your personal phone and it reminds me of you know people who they stalk people or something like that they call you on your personal phone to let you know that they know where you live they know where you are and they can hurt you and you know after the threats and after this you know it's like you know it really scares me believe me but I am at peace you know if something happens to me I am at peace because I feel like by coming forward I will be saving a lot of lives and I'm at peace whatever happens it happens well we certainly do appreciate you you coming forward and and certainly the Brave and courage it takes for all of you to do this do you think that there was a culture of retaliation against whistleblowers at Boeing it absolutely and also there's a culture of when you address the quality issues and that's all I have done I haven't made it personal all I've done is said hey you know we are not measuring the gaps properly we are not shimming the gaps properly then you know you get threat threatened and this and that all I'm trying to say is the system needs to be changed do you still have your job I have my job the only reason I have my job because I had my attorneys we filed for The Whistleblower system before I spoke up this time what's it like when you go back to [Music] work well uh last time if you can think of it I went to a meeting on the Triple 7 and I brought up my concern in that meeting to say that the way we building that airplane it does not correlate to what the design of the airplane is because of that we are resulting in a lot of misfires you know uh misfires and a lot of problems you know after 300 plus airplanes we should be able to make that airplane and my boss sent somebody to the meeting pulled me out of the meeting and uh called me on the phone and says I threw the person under the bus by asking the question what are we doing to make our design compatible with our bill system to overcome these you know mislocated holes and this and that and then he says what was my intention you you know and uh really braided me and a week later he was going to talk about that again I thought you know it's it's resolved but the week later he was talking to me about that you know why should you even be prosecuted for something that you know all you're doing is saying hey the design that we used to have we went to determinate assembly it's not working what can we do have you guys thought about anything to bring that so that they are compatible so your intention was to build a safe airplane absolutely yeah not with Force I I want to try to understand this diagram that you all supplied is this is a Boeing 77 and you're talking about where these joints come together yes I'm talking about the one on the most forward between yeah right there and one in the after that's the 41 43 no the one this way right between that and the that's a 4143 it's a major joint and then one on the after so instead of shimming them they're basically just using Force to bring them together and you're concerned that it hurts the composite well it it just violates every one of our common practices okay because you don't force the stuff together because when you force the stuff together you increase the stress concentration on that if you think think of a paper clip if you bend it back and forth after a little while it breaks yeah um you know speaking of of action that's what I want to talk next about is is action I'm not sure if any of you are familiar with Nar at Witchita State University the National Institute of Aviation research they specialize in Aerospace R&D including composite Advanced Materials and they do wind tunnel wind tunnel testing where they would take an entire Wing an entire Fus Lodge from a plane like this and stress tested and Mr Jacobson would you do you feel like that type of stress I want to get the we we have different opinions but that's where I would have confidence and America would have confidence if there was stress testing take some of these randomly and and do that stress testing or maybe it's already been done I don't know well I'm not a structure specialist um so I I can't really comment on the on the details of any of those sort of um you know hypotheticals but I mean in general um all of this there's there's design then there's testing there's there's quite a process and you can't violate any part of that process if you violate um okay thank I'm sorry about is anybody else familiar with Nar and that type of stress testing where you put them in do wind tunnel testing on these I I just think that that's the action that I would have confidence in is a scientist who have tested thousands of jets and airplanes uh and are experts in composite to see exactly if this is a a challenge or not I think that would be a great a great uh answer to this question that's action go ahead Mr one one thing that I want to you know the issue that we talking about is pressurizing the fuse Lodge from the inside okay you know when you pressurize and de pressurize basically you know that's we call a flight cycle every time you go up and you come down that's one flight cycle I'm sure that we can reproduce that at Nar so I think it's a great great point though and lastly my last question is it feels like the FAA and the dot has dropped the ball as well here though Mr Pearson go ahead and then this is the action I'm sorry that was the dot and the FAA yeah 100% I mean people don't understand the FAA is a subordinate agency to the Department of Transportation and as the FAA has been struggling with revolving leadership and everything else there's been numerous opportunities for the Department of Transportation to get involved and engaged and what we've seen from them is nothing they just kind of are on the sidelines so to me the action would be to ask the staff to sit down with the FAA and the do and the people and and and some type of report we can't bring them in here for another six hour hearing but I would love to see a little bit more report on on how they would defend themselves thank you Mr chairman Senator if I could just add I'm sorry I didn't interrupt but um we met with the head of the FAA and and the deputy of uh Secretary of Transportation in March 8th our foundation did and we met with them and we went through 35 um problems and we made recommendations to each one and we said we offered to assist whatever we could because we want them to be successful um but they need to get in the game is all I can tell you thank you