good afternoon everyone here we are today january 15th and rob is moderating another conference for isnr so it's just us and all of us and i'm not going to waste too much time i don't think richard's unmuting anybody he's going to talk today about one of my favorite topics are you on muting people or are we going to do that is not going to be a formal i'll do a formal presentation but i don't feel i know enough about what i don't know you know people out there are confused so confused about this topic i don't think i understand the full depth of the confusion so i want to hear what people questions they want to ask and what they want to say perfect so we're going to get started and i'm excited too because i'm doing more of this bipolar montage training um with people with intense trauma backgrounds that when they talk with me about that so i'm thrilled that we're doing this today richard so go on ahead i'm still on muting we've got quite a few people today see this is a big it's a big topic and uh i didn't even know it was that big a topic oh my goodness so i have to preface all this by saying you know in neurofeedback for over a decade maybe bipolar montage was not used much or talked about much it was kind of an old thing that people used to do [Music] except there were a few people like seburn fisher who continued to do it and the other mers do it but they do it with infraslow so they kind of left traditional bipolar montage concepts behind when they went into infraslow but the hookup is the same and i think that's where people are getting confused bipolar is a montage we call it bipolar training but bipolar is a montage it's not a method in a sense i mean it it gets reified into a method in a sense and so i think it gets causes a lot of confusion we also have a lot of confusion because of the way we set the new mind amplifiers and training up our goal was to make learning neural feedback as simple as easy to do and learn and as error-free as possible in order to do that we had to simplify our explanation and we had to simplify the amplifier and we had to simplify the software because too many people were so completely lost and too many people were making errors because to understand neurofeedback and amplifiers you have to understand electronics to some degree and electronic theory to some degree and you have to um if you don't you're going to make a lot of errors to avoid that most clinicians are not good at learning electronic theory and a lot of them don't want to and it's off-putting and i don't want to do this new technology if i have to learn electronic theory in order to encourage people in in the non-uh engineering technical community people who are doing psychology and social work and counseling order to aid and assist them in using this technology um that we had them simplify it we had to in a sense simplify your desktop remove some of your apps and make it really you know very basic and when we did that we did certain things to the amplifiers and the software to do that so most of you do two channel protocols some of you understand how to do one and two channel protocols just some of you come from other systems like brain master people come over here from brain master and say oh my god this is so much simpler thank you and it is but the sacrifices you make for simple and that's always the case and your hope is that as you all get more sophisticated you know you take your ces and you learn more that you can use the software in different ways but to do that you know you have to study you have to take workshops you have to learn so you can't just say i'm going to do bipolar montage um and think that you know you're gonna it's gonna be the same as like doing two channel on our system it's not and in fact traditional one channel if you wanna do traditional one channel you know there's new mind one channel but if you want to traditional one channel you have to unlink the ears in the software and a lot of you don't even know there's a place in the software to unlink and we hid it there on purpose so that a lot of you wouldn't get um exist potential angst looking at that drop down menu and you didn't know what it meant or that you played with it and you didn't know what you were doing or you thought you knew what you were doing and you were using it and it wasn't what you thought you were doing so to make sure that we get consistent data into our system which benefits you in the long run and to make everything simple we had to do something called linked ears so your software the new mind software has the ears linked internally okay and what that does is it means that the values you see on your trend screen if alpha says 10 microvolts on your trend screen that's the same on the brain map if you unlink the ears it may not be the same because the brain map was recorded with linked ears if you want to train based on those values and compare them you have to train with linked ears the other problem is that in traditional neural feedback you always have to put the reference lead and there's only one in single channel traditional single channel you only have one reference it always has to go on the right same ear if you switch ears you'll get profoundly different results in the in the amplitude and that will mislead you and your client and confuse everybody and you'll get everything wrong now hopefully that's not causing too much angst to you right now hearing that because you may have been doing something differently and didn't know and that's why you have to take workshops and ask questions if you've been doing standard two channel protocols and one channels with the new mind software the new mind way it's very difficult to make errors or screw things up and that's why we did it but if you start doing bipolar training using a but start training eeg with a bipolar montage everything changes you have to make a lot of modifications and think about things differently so we bring on seburn fisher and she talks about training well she doesn't know she's not a technician she doesn't know what tom color and i know and she even tells you that but you probably didn't hear her telling you that and she doesn't know that you don't know she assumes you know what how she's what a bipolar montage is and how she's doing it she's not a technician she says that's your problem not her problem and so some of you may be thinking you're doing a bipolar montage and you're not or you may not even know what it is or you may say i don't want to mess with what seburn's doing because i don't get what that thing is i mean there's lots of things that could arise here but since vessel vanderpolk stepped into the picture and was doing stuff with cbrn now everything's getting really confusing and everybody wants to know about seburn's protocol and there's a whole history to it and that's the problem you all don't even if you know what bipolar is you don't still don't know what seaburn is doing because sea burns not even doing traditional bipolar training she's doing something that the others invented around the year 2000 2001 and they ran workshops at brain master for many years with this special kind of software setup that brain master helped them evolve and they used a special and they used bipolar montage to do it with so they had two radically different things going on and you gotta remember these are the people who said the only way to do neurofeedback is monopolar and anything else is crazy and suddenly in 2000 2001 they went like we're doing bipolar everybody this is the new thing and we had some people jump on board we had people who first came into neurofeedback they didn't know there was anything else so they just did what the others told them this happens all the time in our field and in other fields so they came into brain master they said this is called a bipolar montage they may not have even mentioned it as i recall they did but most people didn't even understand what that meant they said this is how you hook somebody up and then here's the software but the software setup was so unusual and so radically different that tom color and i had to sit down and talk about it for a while to see if it was even valid we were pulling our hair and said i don't know if you can do this so tom sat down scratched around and we yammered at each other and we said yeah i guess you can it's a really weird way to do it but you can do this and it's even in tom's book on his technical book technical foundations and neural feedback he mentions it a little bit in one paragraph so you wouldn't even know because that's most people aren't doing what the other members were doing in 2001-2002 they aren't doing it anymore there are people still doing it and they love it but it was causing tremendous side effects and the people at brainmaster got so worried about the liabilities because people were coming into workshops and having tachycardia and um and profuse sweating and nausea they were getting all these intense physiological symptoms from this new kind of protocol well there are some people in neurofeedback are like well this is great my god it's so powerful now we've really got something uh you can feel it intensely and immediately right away well the problem is not everybody did some people just sat there like a stone and said i don't get it but other people and rob will tell you stories you know he was he was getting manic and he said stop doing this it's just making me manic um and so people were having a lot of intense so this new type of protocol that's the time when seburn fisher and sue othmer got together and i remember i was at the work i was at the conferences and all the discussion around going on at the time that's when c burn fisher started saying i'm using this protocol to work with trauma and everybody was getting interested in trauma and this was something besides alpha theta so now we have the new restaurant has opened up in town and everybody's going to run over and into the new restaurant um and that was seburn's trauma workshop so everybody ran over there and she's doing um the othmer style protocol now steven has modified it and does slight variations on it and so to know exactly what she's doing you need to go to a workshop and so uh as i'm walking through this if you see anything different that she's doing feel free to speak up because we want to sort this out with you guys to make sure that you understand what's going on here there's bipolar training and then there's seburn's bipolar training and those aren't the same thing exactly they're similar dr scooter yes mark smith with his in for low is also uh her infant slow is also bipolar yes yes but i'm i don't want to get into that his is more straightforward it's not the old othmer version he's doing uh he's doing it correct correct but he uses all of those uh sympathetic uh variances as indications of when you're honing in so his workshop he covers it but he's getting that effect because he's using infraslow if you just do standard bipolar traditional bipolar montage single channel bipolar montage training you aren't going to get those effects if you're doing infraslow with bipolar montage you will get those effects if you do the old other style training with bipolar montage you will get those effects so there's a difference here and it's not in the montage the difference is in how you're processing the signals in your computer i'll say that again the difference is not in the montage it's not because you're doing bipolar the difference is because of the way you're processing the signals in the computer well exactly correct because the early smr training was was by forward so yeah a lot of people were doing smr bipolar montage and they know the difference between bipolar smr and monopolar smaller that was really troublesome i can remember workshops at brain masters when you know when we started brain master started doing workshops i was one of the first people doing workshops with them we're seeing people pull out their hair and crying trying to understand the difference between monopolar smr and bipolar smr they would go nuts because they weren't trained to think of it so i don't know how far we'll get today but since it's now popular again it's the new restaurant to eat and everybody's running over to do seburn's protocol um we'll go over it but i want you to go back and listen to seburn's last lecture and her telling you that it's not the neurofeedback that's so important it's the clinician and the counseling that's the most important the neurofeedback is very helpful it's adjunctive but it is not the center of her perspective don't take my word for it go back and listen to her her video on it she's a counselor first and a neurofeedback clinician second you know in her lectures like when at isnr she spent of let's say the hour she talked about the literal neurofeedback placements for maybe 10 minutes the reft was all about the therapy and using the neurofeedback with the therapy and then the practical and when i went to a two day in person with her i'd say at least 65 70 percent was on the therapy and not on the placement and what to do with the neurofeedback okay so she's very consistent about that well then you can keep us keep us between the rails as we go through this since you've been to her workshops and of course it's it's just like a good foundation on a building it's just that when you read all these studies you have to read the methods sections and find out what what are they measuring you know to better understand the results exactly and uh and and you've got mark some what you're calling flash cards the stuff that you're gonna post so that everybody to also help with all of this stuff great so okay so let's kind of get a little bit started see how far we get we have no no fixed agenda this could be a discussion that moves beyond just this one day and at one point when we get it all crowdsourced together we'll make just one lecture and put it up on youtube so bipolar montage there's another name for it just to make things even more confusing it's called sequential montage and there was a war in neurofeedback in the late 90s between the people who wanted to call it sequential montage and people who wanted to call it bipolar montage and uh the whole thing was back to uh the lilliputians and their war with their friends because they cracked the egg on the wrong side and uh and or in the middle you know it's these are the things we get into um so you had that little war going on so it was used prolifically in their own back in the 70s 80s and 90s why well back in the 70s 80s and 90s we had what were known as crap amplifiers yes you heard me crap amply they were made with analog components they're totally different technology than today and they use simple transistors and i'll show you that in a minute and they had terrible input impedance which means it was hard to get a good eeg signal there was a lot of noise and it's very difficult just to get a decent signal but it used a bipolar montage you could get a cleaner signal so people liked using bipolar montage back in those days because they got a nice clean signal when you had crappy amplifiers the other thing was that they also realized at a certain point later on uh probably more around 98 99 some of the people particularly at lexicor began to realize well we only have single channel amplifiers because that's all anybody had back then there weren't any two channel amplifiers around for the most part there's a single channel and they were expensive enough and so um people were saying well we can't do coherence training because suddenly we had all these people coming in into the meeting suddenly saying coherence is the new way it's everybody needs to go to coherence that's gonna fix everything it's the final solution it was the new restaurant in town so everybody ran over there and said yes we must have coherence training but our problem is is nobody's got two channel amplifiers or very few people of course if you had spent your twelve or fifteen thousand dollars back in that day which was worth all was more like spending 25 or 30. um if you had bought your um 20 channel lexicor amp and they were like the people who were making it for neurofeedback community then uh you could do coherence training but the poor impoverished everyday counselors and social workers said we've only got one channel and we can't afford uh spending that kind of money they said well there's a solution you can do bipolar montage oh we're saved salvation is here and so they use bipolar montage to do coherence training and you go like you're going like what what are you talking about well stick with me for a while and i'll explain to you how that's done and you probably really don't want to know most of you but i'm going to explain it for those of you who want to struggle for the solution there okay i already told you about the others and uh we use it rob and i use two channel bipolar montage which is going to blow your mind don't even try to think about it yet until you master the concept of bipolar we used it extensively early on in fact we were the first people to really standardize monopoly and use it in two channels and use it for training it wasn't our original idea we got the idea from david kaiser who's an incredibly brilliant and innovative guy who most you may not even know exists anymore he's not around the conferences very much but he was the guy who ran the database for barry sturman and he was the guy who came up with um another version of connectivity monitoring other than coherence which some of you may or may not know about and it's co-variation of amplitude so that's a completely different concept than coherence and they were promoting barrister was promoting that and david went on to produce a whole raft of other neurometric dimensions he was brilliant at math and stats and um of course that immediately overwhelmed everybody and they said just we don't want to look at that and then you had competition people like thatcher and hudsmith and other people saying well that's bogus the real thing the thing to do is what we've always done which is coherence phase you know symmetry and david kaiser's going like there's more there's more and they're saying no no go home go home so david kind of more or less intellectually got drummed out of the field to some degree this happens in every field happened with quantum mechanics and physics from 1902 you know when we started off uh identifying with max planck and einstein identifying uh photons as uh not waves but particles and treating them that way and bouncing them off electrons suddenly that just through the world of physics and everybody fought and bitter battles and on and on happens in every field so then we get um uh the fact that actually diminished in popularity eventually as q-e-e-g came into the field everybody started looking at monopoly training um more as more narrowly the way to do it because if you had monopolar linked ears then your values on your cues would be the same values as on your trend screen and people like that because they were looking at the brain map and they're saying like wow the alpha looks really high but when i look on my bipolar montage trend screen it doesn't look that high what's going on or you may have had the ears linked one you may have not had the ears linked but one day you have your reference on one ear and you know and it's ipsilateral and it's at 10 micro volts and you put it on the contralateral ear you know and next time all of a sudden it's at 16 micro volts or 18 micro volts and you don't know why it changed you're attributing it to the neural feedback you're saying wow this person got better or worse and all you did was shift the reference from one ear to the other so everybody's saying you know what we really should be using linked ears and monopolar because we're all using maps and then brain master brought in z-score training well now you absolutely have to have lengthiers for that and so they came out with their new 19-channel amp and it was linked internally and electronics had changed in eeg we were no longer linking ears physically we were linking them internally electronically with the software well of course almost nobody in the field knew that except tom me and a few people and people are building amplifiers writing software so hopefully you're getting a sense of how confusing and varied all these things were and so on and i just said no we're going to make this as simple as possible and as uniform as possible bipolar montage continued to be used by seburn and continued to be used by people that the others trained but didn't want to follow the ottomers into infraslow so the ottomers moved into infraslow through the bipolar montage doorway and went into infraslow but they left a massive number of people who still liked that original way they were teaching in 2001 2002 2003 when around that period and they uh uh so they're out there and they're most of them are using the eeg the eegers they call themselves um and uh that company running eegers was the company that went bankrupt and bought out the others it's actually the executives that drove the comfort tree into bankruptcies the ottomans lost their house and everything left and then those people those business managers came back and bought eeg spectrum out of bankruptcy and became known as eeg or i mean these little ugly facts that nobody talks about you never hear about in the history um but if you're eating dinner with all these people it's something that's heart-wrenching so that's why the authors went and worked with brain master to get their platform back and re-establish themselves and get their house back um so you can see there's a very complex history behind all this and we don't bother you with it but today i'm going to bother you a little bit with electronics apologies but i don't know any other way to do this we keep this stuff hidden from you to make your life simple and easy and fairly pain-free to do neural feedback but you say i want to do bipolar montage okay well then you gotta study and you gotta think differently and you gotta do things differently personally i think alpha theta is better than anything for trauma for theoretical and technical reasons um i know bipolar thing that sebring's work using works but it doesn't necessarily work better than alpha theta and there are no studies to prove it's better and there's no scientific reason to think it works better and people doing that don't have the technical knowledge to counter argue and have never published a counter argument because there isn't one but it's the new restaurant now so you want to eat at it and that's fine um maybe all of us who are alpha thetas are dead wrong and someday somebody will produce some research to show that in the meantime we're getting great results with alpha theta but if you want to eat at the new restaurant then listen up this is a classical amplifier they come in different styles and it's called pnp junction and npn junction and there's all kinds of things it evolved out of something called a diode and i'm not even going to get into that because you'll all be pulling your hair out if i do but quite simply what happens is a voltage goes in over here on the inside okay and then it flows down and into a ground and then you get this part here well actually they've got the other way around this is the emitter and that's the collector and the process is that when it goes through here it gets amplified and i'm not going to torch you with the details why or the network theory but you can see here here's the collector here's the emitter here's the base it's called and you get a small signal in and because of the network characteristics you get a big signal out it makes a small signal big so you're talking about microvolts and you want to get them into the millivolt range so the old-fashioned amplifiers in the 70s and 80s couldn't do that you needed multiple amplifiers connected together in a chain and you kept having to amplify each set of the chain bigger and bigger and bigger to get something that you could see on your computer and a lot of noise got into it you didn't get very clean signals so what happened is along came something which really changed things particularly in the 90s a lot was something called an instrumentation amplifier now we were using differential amplifiers with those simple transistors with lots of stages and it was very messy but once we got these op amps they're called instrumentation amps we had a gain of a hundred thousand so now you needed fewer stages in the chain and you got a lot more amplification not only that is that the dc offset which we've talked about if you don't understand there's a discussion on it on my youtube video on artifacts the dc offset was stable which means that you got much more accurate and consistent readings on your computer there wasn't much drift it didn't change much you could be sure that the signal was reliable and of course it had what we needed common mode rejection and if you've done the web course you should know what common mode rejection is and if you don't again it's on that artifact discussion but um basically for common mode rejection you have to have two inputs two sets of amplifiers so this is op amp one this is op amp two these are stabilizing networks and this is the output so you get a little signal in here and you get a big signal out here and that you can manipulate with your computer and this is the ground everything you notice here all goes to the ground ground um is important because you want the ground of the amplifier to be similar to your ground value so the values for both have to be similar to compare apples to compare you and the amplifier to work together comparing apples to apples that that reduces dc offset and drift as well so we have the active on one side and the reference on the other side in our amplifiers so all eeg amplifiers have a ground a reference to one side of the amplification process and act as the other amplification process so we're using what we call two op amps and we call this a channel this could be channel one on your amplifier if it's home training you have two sets of these in your black box it's called channel one and channel two if you're using our four channel amplifier you have four sets of these in there and all of the grounds are linked together and in our equipment all of the references are linked together now you can manually unlink them and i'll show you how but that's the way it's done and if you're using a 20 channel amp you have 20 of these under in the box and they cram them all into a tiny chip and then you have all the references and all of the grounds on all 20 channels are all linked together and that's called monopolar because you have all of these linked together and then you have this one active reference which you can put anywhere on the head so you have this very accurate thing now why am i going into this because this is where a lot of people get confused here is a one this is this is one channel here channel one reference a and ground now if you have the newer amplifiers and i just went over this with somebody and i was trying to explain this to them and they had a newer amp and i didn't know it so we were talking past each other but this is channel one reference a and ground now on the newer amplifier it says channel one left ear and ground so note that now for a bipolar montage you have to use just this one set of inputs you can't use channel three two reference b or channel four you cannot use that for a button you can only use channel one and reference a or as it's otherwise known as left ear and ground so if you're not doing that you're not doing bipolar montage i don't know what you're doing lots of things you can do now typically dr suter yes mark shively if you can back up to your schematic again this to me clarify no i mean it's like this is what people gloss over sometimes because it all looks the same but we do a disservice when you look at a picture of a map and they just have a1 and a2 by the ears because we we use a1 as meaning your your active electrode as well as um you know sometimes you use it oh that's the ear but it's not so here like you were saying when you link all the references together and then your um your actives are maybe like c z p z t z that's all you're monopolar right bipolar your active would be like c z and then your reference would be like maybe p z and so now you're you're you're drawing between those two sites on the head and then the grounds would would all be linked together and so that's why you get and that's in so that's the big configuration difference okay but you're normal when you link you're correct mark but i think you're going too fast for your audience you know well so that's i'm going slower than you but what you just said if if all of you understood mark he's exactly right but i'm going way slower so i'm explaining it at a really simple level because i teach people all the time every day and if i explained it to that at that rate they wouldn't understand some of them would but not everyone so you're totally right on but i'm going to go slower on this so um those of you who heard mark he gave you the quick summary i'm going to walk through it again slowly we can say it as many times as necessary on your amplifier if you want to do bipolar montage you need to use an ear clip put it on the ear and then plug it into ground okay that's um and then the next thing you're going to want to do is take a single a simple lead like this and you're going to put it let's say a t4 and you're going to plug it into reference a or left ear depending on your amp and then if you want to do active 3 you're going to plug it into channel one now there's nothing sacred about the colors of the wires there's nothing sacred about the placements so i could switch these around i could make this one t3 and this one t4 it doesn't matter the amplifier doesn't know the difference but the important thing is that this is how it has to go in terms of plugging things in now what cbrn does a lot of times is she'll do t4 p4 and i think mark was just saying the same thing or pz so you could plug in t4 to reference a or left ear and then you could put p4 instead of t3 into channel 1. but that has to be the configuration on our amplifiers now there's also uh just so you can see here is the reference at p4 what you're calling the reference and that would be a reference one or that would be left ear would be going to p4 and then active would be going to t4 and then the ground to the ear so that's what the montage is bipolar montage and it's all going through just one channel and this really confuses people because they're they're thinking of the locations on the scalp as the channel instead of thinking of the amplifier as the thing that defines the term channel the next thing you have to do on our software and brain master did not do this originally on um on their 1920 channel amplifier you know they and uh i was like tom how are we going to do bipolar he wasn't that concerned at the time because he was doing um z-score training and that was really what they were focusing on but they eventually made a modification internally so you could unlink the ears uh and so when we built our software we put in a an ability to unlink the ears so you need to go if you're going to do bipolar training on our software you must i say must go in to this this little session control place go down to the bottom and select unlinked because by default the ears are linked our amplifier will not work correctly okay if you're doing bipolar montage unless you unlink the ears you will not get accurate readings so hopefully if you're doing bipolar montage with us with our software and amplifier you're unlinking the ears and you know that now we've talked about that yes yeah when you um to set this up um with channel one and uh you put the reference into reference a and the ground is the right ear if you do it the other side you switch the ground to the opposite so it's contralateral if it's for the um i i would just for sanity's sake okay technically the way our amplifier works it doesn't need to be but just to keep yourself sane i would do it that way okay thank you now i'm gonna blow your mind even more because this is what tom and i sat down and pulled her hair out recently with sue um and when i presented it at the ice and r meeting i mean um a lot of people like bob thatcher this got up and walked out and they said that's ridiculous that you what are you doing and i was trying to show them with the brain map and software what tom and i had talked about because i was trying to help the others out and uh sigrid and sue were like standing there going like oh my god you know that they don't get it and we tried to explain it to them but what's happening with the ottomans in the 2000 on 2002 protocols maybe 2003 which led to so that's what they're doing now is that they inhibited everything from 1 to 40 hertz so they would go into the brain master and you know delta theta alpha beta low beta high beta every single channel they would make it an inhibit and they would inhibit 95 97 so they were putting a modest inhibit up here on everything and then they had one other filter and it was 13 to 16 hertz and they enhanced that so they up trained that at 80 percent i still have those original files in my old ancient windows 7 computer and then what sue and sigrid would do and people were like how can you train up and down at the same time well technically if you're not inhibiting too much down you can it's what we used to call range training you can put a threshold a high threshold and a low threshold and uh any time you exceed either threshold so in the wrong way you don't get a tone but if you stay in between the two of them you get a tone and that's kind of what they're doing here they're doing a form of range training now this was very inventive of sue she didn't know electronically but she understood she figured it out um and we never thought of doing it this way it seemed like what but then tom figured it out he got out did the math scratched the paper and said yeah yeah you can do this okay so um martin quickly um to clarify this very much this is an amplitude range training not the frequency range training just to make that clear yes absolutely but not entirely because of now we're going to add another curve in is that they would shift this up training and it's three hertz here this is a three hertz window 13 to 16. they would shift this up and down in half hertz increments and they would and as they shifted it up and down they would look for a sweet spot that got the optimum benefit in the client's symptoms and how they felt and if they got the right spot they would feel great and they said like we got it but when you were shifting up and down sometimes you would get heart palpitations racing hearts giddiness sweating and nausea so they were at by doing this they were hitting um the the brain stem pretty hard which was very interesting to me um so they were shifting down up and down these increments until they got that sweet spot as the others did this more and more they found that they were training people down lower and lower at a certain point they were training mostly up in delta and inhibiting and eventually they started going below on hertz they went like well we seem to be even getting better effects with less side effects they were concerned because a lot of people were shying away from what they were doing because of the side effects but they found below one hertz they got very few side effects and still got benefits and that got into a whole nother historically big argument between everybody that their amplifier was not built to measure below one hertz and they said yes it was and they said no it wasn't and there's all these technical arguments and it went on for years um this is the protocol that cbrn was using originally was this shifting up and down with that broad inhibit now she's mostly working down or she still shifts up and down i don't know if she's still using the broad inhibit somebody told me she was only using the one to six and judy may know because she's been to the workshops but this is how it evolved and this is the basic overview so you have to set up your software to do something like this so if you wanted to do that in our software for instance you would have to do set up one channel like let's see i did fpo2 um but and i was into fpo2 in another location or i could do a t4p4 it doesn't matter what it doesn't matter you could put john doe in here and it doesn't matter because this does not control the training software it's just it's just a marker so you remember what you did so you would train you could put t3 in here and let them link them up to t3 t4 or t3 p4 t4p or whatever you want you could hook them up so this it's just got to fill something in here to tell the system that you're moving forward and then you could set up increments say here's a 3 hertz increment at 8 to 11 7 to 10 6 to nine and uh so you could train each one of these up in your training channel you just turn off the tone if you don't want to train so you turn the tone on for here oh then they're doing not doing so good at eight to eleven turn it off turn the tone on for seven to ten oh they're doing good there i like that that sounds good uh or you could turn that off or turn the tone on for six to nine oh that sounds good they're doing good there and you're inhibiting 1 to 40 hertz at a 95 rate and that would be what the others were doing in ours we don't have it set up so that you can that you can shift freely up and down i mean we could do that but until there's a large demand for it you're talking about a lot of money and time to change the software for just one or two people um if you're really excited about um about doing the auth this protocol then you might want to go to her workshops and use the eeger equipment or something similar whatever she's using richard if you're having conversation with the person while you're training them you can start at one of these clone the others yes and then pause talk go in out of one program into another one that you've cloned so you can start at eight to eleven pause talk go cl you've had it already cloned and ju that takes like less than a minute to go from one to another and you can go right because that must be what you're doing right we are most of the time we're staying on one frequency um for 20 minutes about but you but i've done this and that's how and then we've cloned a whole variety of them so we can drop as we need to drop yes well what is the inhibitor you're using are you using the ones i'm using sticks one to six okay so so now she's she's down to using a one to six inhibit instead of one to forty which is and her book she also inhibits 22 to 36. so okay so she's got a high and alone there if if i see high beta in the qeg i'll add that so that and so that's slightly different from what the offer so she's evolved and so she's just down training the low end down training the up end and then and then doing increments in between to see which one gets the best results right yeah absolutely okay so now sometimes we'll stay at one for a little while like uh two or three times and then drop there's a whole series of things you have to do with the client to make sure that you're heading in the right or the wrong direction and if you're going to do this using anything with c burns i'm not to interrupt you but to make sure you have seburn's book neurofeedback and the treatment of developmental trauma as at least a starting point because the ability of what to ask how to determine looking at all the different physiology things that are components of the trauma-based fear of reactivity is is really critical to what adjustments you're going to make thank you questions quick question are you moving the up training window outside of the one to six range down training range i'm not so you're only training between one and six hertz up training is that correct i am training one to six down yes and simultaneously what do you want training upgrading it could be 9 to 12 8.5 to 11.5 usually i'll start in my question five to 13. yeah i know i know mark would be interested in this because he's talked about you've been doing it already in his own kind of way hey richard um this is bree i just want to jump in quickly it's a little bit of an aside but maybe not um you and i had a session because on the two-channel amplifier okay for new mind bipolar montage came out looking a little differently and i just want to know is is it appropriate to mention that here because i know a lot of people have done don't okay okay you got it because i'm afraid you're going to cause confusion but uh there are other ways of doing this and i'm just trying to get the basic concept down so i don't want to confuse people no i got i got your concern if you're concerned just email me we'll set up a time and review it again i mean but basically what you taught us today with this amplifier may not be appropriate for the smaller one is that correct for the two-channel amplifier yeah no no you can do the same thing on two channel amplifier because you're oh it doesn't it doesn't matter what amplifier you're using because you're only using one of the channels it doesn't matter how okay okay great thank you okay but i would really listen to judy and that's why i said it's incidental and that's why judy said it's this is part of the training but so much of what she's doing is therapeutic and this is this is uh it's necessary but it's not the dominant component of her therapy and and uh if if you want to know more you might want to contact judy um if you really want to know you should go to want to see burns go to seaburn right i mean i'm telling you but you don't need to go to sleep scheduling bipolar pardon me i was just saying she schedules through eeg or and that's how i started was like a case consultation where you just bring something and it's a zoom with however many four to six people and you start talking about it and then i went in person you know and um it's i'm finding it very very useful for uh people for example that well we're getting late and i suppose we want to see we'll have more time we're going to come back to this uh next time instead of doing proportional where rob has to be scheduled i may do part two like i said i know how far i'd get but i can see so far we need to keep talking about this yeah richard just quick last question here um on the protocols that new mind suggests based off the map all of those protocols then can be done on the one channel correct this one channel setup you can do all those protocols on this one channel setup the way you just went through it correct i'm not sure what you're asking um but you might not want to if for example it's protocol 20 and you're doing an asymmetry protocol you would not want to do o1 minus o2 necessarily that's going to achieve a different effect than when you do it as a two channel if i'm understanding the question yeah if that's the question she's right so let's uh yeah we'll go over it later we're almost out of time so but so that's what we're going to get into we're going to start talking about we're going beyond what's zebra and zoom we're actually going to talk about bipolar training dynamics what's happening when you're training bipolar why would you use it what's the difference and we have to understand the amplifier dynamics we have to look at it has a different effect in terms of phase and coherence than you would expect and we need to know why you want to use them and then we're going to actually show you the brain is not passive it's active and although there's theoretically things it's supposed to be doing when you actually hook somebody up which nobody ever did strangely enough in our field until i did it and presented at the meeting it doesn't it doesn't act in real time in real life the way it looks like it should if you're just looking at the theory so we're going to go over and say how does it really affect what really happens you know what theoretically should happen what really happens you rarely hear what really happens most of the year just what's supposed to happen and that's goes on a lot in our field so um the next time we get together to talk about bipolar it won't be for a bit i have to see what rob's schedule is we will finish with this and uh and then we'll get feedback and keep talking so everybody's clear on it and i know where everybody's getting lost we're crowdsourcing the ways that you can get lost and then we'll put it all into one thing very slowly so i really appreciate everybody's input if you're feeling confused or overwhelmed that's not unusual everybody in the field of neurofeedback has struggled with this it's because if you're not technically trained it is an overwhelming concept the difference you don't need to know this and you don't have to do it so don't feel like you're missing out it's not true you can do two channel protocols i have people who come from all different backgrounds two channel protocols going oh my god the results are so fast they're so amazing why didn't we find new minds sooner and that's not me blowing my heart that's p people tell me that you ask our support people uh so two channel is great the system is great it works great it's documented to work great but there are other things you can do that can give you an extra edge bipolar montage is one of them and so take it one step at a time don't panic if you don't get it right away it takes a while to sort it out we'll keep going over until we find the easiest way to explain it to everybody and i'll incorporate mark in that you can see he knew instantly what it is so thank you everybody for your input and your confusion and uh we'll continue on with this whole topic uh again soon time to get back to work though have great weekend monday night we have a qeg review scheduled so far okay so we'll see you then see you later thank you so much have a good weekend mono or bipolar thank you