I've got two of the biggest CEOs in the real estate investing space. I've got Jesse Burell of Batch Data and Brian Keeper of PropStream. And PropStream actually just paid multiple eight figures to acquire Batch and we're going to talk about that acquisition, what is happening from it, why they did it. What's up, guys? Thanks for having us on. Yeah. So, Jesse, I mean, I think you were on the podcast a couple of years ago. Yeah. and we were talking about the business and the market and um you know you guys finally sold. Yeah. You know this week and uh Propstream was the buyer which kind of makes sense with you know you guys are in similar things and um I'm just curious why this deal came together. So I've told this story a lot. I like to hear your version this time. Oh my I think your version my version are very similar. Uh I like to go back to the beginning. So last year, I think it was October time frame. uh his partner Evo reached out because they were interested in selling the batch data side of like they're selling us data uh skip tracing uh data because I know that's one of their objectives is to be a more B2B market and as we were talking I we floated an idea about acquisition or just you know uh seeing what what their future is as they're going into the space and I think Jesse and I connected maybe a week or two later and jokingly we said you know would uh would you be interested in selling or buying and you're like yeah let's have a conversation. Uh and it just sort of evolved from that point. I think what really to in my mind and we we said this before that really put the nail on the head with why it was so important to do an acquisition or what the value was is as we were looking at batch data and the skip tracing. The conversation really was like if we're going to do this uh do we not disclose that we are using batch skip tracing because is that a is that a problem? Do we not do lose a competitive advantage? Uh and he was saying the same thing like we might not want to disclose it because we might have people that would leave leads and come back to PropStream or vice versa. And then as we started like matrating on the thought, it was like, well, why if we're going to hide why we're doing it, maybe there's a bigger reason why we should come together because that's actually the power of the platform. That's the power of their skip tracing, their lead platform is the name, the value recognition, the brand equity, uh what they've accomplished, their user base. And why would we want to shield that from our users? Why not just come together as one company? Yeah. And I guess for you, um, batch has seen lots of iterations over the years, right? I mean, if I recall correctly, since we all came up kind of around the same time, you guys were like just batch skip tracing. Yeah, that's where it started. And then there was leads and there's dialer, now there's data. Like, I personally still don't even know the difference between this and like what exactly was sold and you know, all this. Yeah. So I, as Brian kind of said, I I really was pitching to him on how, you know, he's buying data and skip tracing somewhere. Why not let it be the best in ours? And, you know, we would have to disclose like, hey, people can't talk about this because we could both use that to a benefit for our own companies. And I jokingly said to him, half jokingly, was I'd sell you batch leads and dialer. He's like, would you? I'm like, huh? Because batch leads is your consumer company to sell that data. Yep. And if you knew PropStream was using your data, you'd be like, "Well, why use PropStream? Just come over here." Yep. And vice versa, the same thing. Well, we're using similar blah blah blah. And that's why Brian really was like, "You guys could cannibalize each other." Correct. Um, and so with the leads and dialer side of things is it's just and the further we dug in is like we do some things really well that they didn't do very well. And some of the things that they do really well, we didn't do very well. Um, and that's why me and Brian kind of started like being like, "Oh," and then just signaling to the market what this is going to be, what this app could look like. And I mean it's going to be really tough for anyone else to to compete with that lead generation side for for I know what's to come on the product roadmap and that's probably something we could talk about but what b so we sold 100% of batch leads and batch dialer to propstream and then I still me and Annie and Evo still own 100% of batch data and batch skip tracing but batch skip tracing we're currently rolling into batch data so like if people want to just go skip trace they could do it there but batch data is really our our B2B offering where we could um power other software solutions like um a prop stream to some degree or we do work with investor lift as well and we're really fueling the backends with some data and contact information and some other some other things as well. I see. So like when you guys looked at it from PropStream's perspective, you know, you guys were probably number one and two in this space, right? And so now you basically consolidate all the users. Like what what is the plan? Like are you going to keep batch leads and you know they're just two separate things and like they get customers and everything else or is it going to consolidate? Like have you thought about that? I have over time it will consolidate. Uh I really want to take the best of batch leads and put it into PropStream to make a super app. Uh, and really I want to honor everything that they've built because they've built some amazing tools and I love their technology and so I don't want to see that go away. I want to see us kind of double down on what that's what they've developed, what their team has done and bring it all together because what we're really looking for is that all-in-one solution that could meet our customers needs end to end. Uh, and the other big piece of that was a dialer. That was something that we didn't have. And so when we looked at what was our biggest advantage, we are looking we were looking at that anyway. And so it's that buy versus build scenario. How much does it cost to build a competing product? How many years does it take? How much does it cost? And then even if it took a year or two years, any other product out there, batch dialer is going to already be ahead of us from the time we release, right? And then there's the customer base. And so when you really evaluate the how powerful it is just to say let's come together as partners it just again the more we talked about it the more sense it started to make and that's when we brought it over to Stuart and we said this is how we grow this is how we become the all-in-one solution and this is really how we dominate the marketplace and provide the best to our customers. So let's talk about that because um Stuart Title bought PropStream in 20 I was looking this up. They bought it for in 21 like 175 million and you weren't with PropStream then. You came on to run the company after the acquisition. Um and you guys been doing your thing for the last bunch of years and is is this your guys' first major acquisition? As PropStream. Yes. As PropStream. Okay. Um I guess talk to me about the perspective of like what Stuart was trying to do when they first acquired PropStream. why you came in and then you know why now this I know that one of the Steuart's objectives was to really get more in the front end of the transaction uh and they really wanted to take a technology company that they could build and grow and a title as most you know real estate professionals know that's like the last thing you do one of the last things you check and so to be able to get in front of the transaction was really important to grow their ecosystem uh one of the reasons I came on board was after the founders Robin and Doll stepped down they after that year I think they were ready to move on and do a new venture uh I've been in the prop tech space for over 20 years at that point and so I've helped build uh online MLS systems association management I've had two decades experience in the real estate world dealing with agents technology associations uh really the umbrella of real estate professional and so taking a SAS you know uh product similar uh but more real estate focused or realtor focused. It was really kind of a natural fit to kind of move into this role. Okay. So, you were working for 20 years on the realtor tech side. And then they found you said, "Hey, we want you to work with wholesalers now. How was that transition?" You know, it was a bit of a learning curve to see how different professionals interact in real estate. Wholesaling, investing, and traditional realtors do it very differently. Yeah. Uh but the thing that I've actually come to learn and appreciate and this I really had changed after uh COVID and the interest rates started increasing uh transactions went down 20%. Was more traditional realtors were leaning on wholesalers and investors to keep their business and their transactions up. Right. And I think there's been more camaraderie and more connections between various groups of real estate transaction uh transactions since the interest rates have really bumped up. I mean, God, they they're not at historic highs, but they're the highest they've been in a long time. 20 years. 20 years. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, right? because I think prop stream sold at like the peak of like you know the real estate market um valuations for companies and all these things and you know after it sold we went into like the worst real estate market that we've seen in you know decades really um since the great recession and I'm curious what you both feel like the market is going to do these you know I guess the rest of this year the next couple of years um and how you're using that for the business. I I look at opportunity. So when you have a market like this where it's down 20%. I mean I think the average transactions have been 5 million a year. They're down to about 4 million a year. That's a lot of volume. When you say down 20%, you're talking just transaction transaction volume. Yep. But I do think that that provides more opportunity for realtors and wholesalers and investors to really be more reliant on tools like PropStream and Batch because that's how they're finding deals. They're not This isn't 2020. This isn't when interest rates were at 2% 3%. You are actually having to actively look for transactions. They're active actively having to look for leads to look for investment deals to look for wholesaling deals. They're not coming to you anymore like they were 5 years ago. Yeah, you're actually having to utilize the tools that are available to, you know, to do your job, to make those sales, to make those transactions. Yeah. What I've noticed personally since you're a coach, so yeah, I've coached thousands and thousands of people and, you know, I've bought from wholesalers and we wholesale and my personal subjective with no data to prove this is that um to your point, there are less people just presenting deals as wholesalers like right now. Like I I remember during the peak it's like man me as a buyer I got deals being sent to me every freaking day and it's like all right cool every like there's lots of deals happening and then now um it's not that deals don't happen like you said deals do happen but I think like if I was a flipper only um which I'm not I would have to start using tools to go find these sellers now you know like it's not the amount of realtors and wholesalers bringing me deals is significantly less than before. Yeah. Like I have to learn to essentially be a wholesaler. Just go direct to seller. I would say exactly. And I just call I call that personally just wholesaling the you know you're going direct to seller. Whatever you choose to do, you know, is up to you. Yeah. I I'd say I' I think it looks like the interest rates are going to start to tick down. So I think it's going to short term I think there's going to be some more transactions going on. But I'm kind of in a similar boat to what you guys are. I think from what I've seen and all the people I've talked to, there's still a lot of transactions being done. Yeah. It's just you can't just hop in to wholesaling and get your first deal and sell it to a hedge fund like you could three years ago. Like you have to put the work in. You have to have the right tools. You have to use something like a batch or propstream or something like the program that you offer to where there is um Facebook leads or these leads and um PPC leads still work great. Like there's still all the deals. It's just not simple to get your first couple now. and you actually have to learn. You have to learn how to comp. You have to learn how to talk to sellers properly. I just think the barrier to entry is a little bit more difficult like kind of when we started in 20 and there's a lot less tools, but it was the same type of thing is it wasn't just easy to go get your first couple deals. Um I feel like it's kind of similar to that to where it's like I think you want to come in, you want to do it, you could do great and you can make a lot of money. It's just if you're not disciplined and not really trying to learn the business, you're not just going to be able to call 200 200 homeowners, have someone interested, lock it up at retail, and go sell it to a hedge fund for 10% more, right? Those days are gone. That was that was a little window of of craziness. And it was so good. I that's literally right when we stopped, too, is like yeah, April of 2020. And then I see all of you guys just printing money on the flips and the wholesales. We also did fantastic during that time on Well, you built a great business during that time. Exactly. That that paid off significantly. For sure. So, no, I I I agree. I think um Yeah. I mean, I started flipping in 2015 and so I actually do think it's very similar to back then where it's like, yeah, I mean, dude, you got to actually work to get deals and you know, you got to work to find buyers. Uh you got to do a good job on your flip. You know, I remember back in 2020 to 2022, bro, we didn't have to do nothing to flips because we're gonna have 30 offers and they're all bidding over list and you're like, "All right, wave your contingencies. Like, we ain't taking nothing." And then they don't have a choice. You know, we were talking about that with watches and cars, too. Like, it was just crazy for any market, right? Yeah. Everything was a 20 30% premium. Yeah, it was crazy. So, you know, from this standpoint now, I mean, I guess like Jesse for you, like what's the next step, right? Because you guys have sold the company now, which is essentially the B toC side. Yep. And I imagine Brian, you're just are you in full control now? Like you're just taking over and doing your thing. Yep. Okay. And we have Jesse and his team for 6 months to help us through the transition and make sure that their vision, their road maps, the thing that the things that they were already working on continue. So we really interested in continuity. Yeah. Um really to making sure that their team feels good, that they're comfortable. They had a great roadmap ahead of them, a great vision, and we don't want to lose that. And so for the next few months, they're definitely going to help shepherd us through what they were already planning. Right. And then you're going to focus on the B2B side with batch data. Yeah. So I mean they're they're a partner and a customer of ours now to important customer as well to where and me and him through these last eight months have became very close and um I'm very much invested to make sure that you know this transaction on that side goes smoothly and not just it's six months and there could be additional six months potentially as well. So I call it, you know, this next year, but even after that, um, you know, this is I I was able to build something. I have a lot of people that I've spent a lot of time that are going over there. My sister included is a part of the PropStream team now. And, um, I'm going to do everything I can to support them long term because I know what type of person you are, what type of team they have. And ultimately it's really just going to um you know why I knew it was the right fit is like we're both just so focused on you know we have products that help customers change their lives and like I've always said that and he said that to me like with kind of their vision casting and and I know the type of product that we're going to be able to build with this merger and it's just going to help the the whole entire community get more deals at the end of the day and that's what excites me honestly. Yeah. So, this is actually a good point because um I've thought about this a lot with my own business and you hear it as one of the main risk with selling any business is keyman risk. Yeah. So how did you guys evaluate keyman risk of like okay you know I guess batch is a little bit different in that you know it is mainly data and software so like having a face isn't as like crazy as maybe other businesses but you know Jesse I would say is the face um for all these years and you know he's going to be leaving and focused on you know other things like how did you guys look at that from a transition standpoint or from like evaluating that risk. I would say to Jesse's immense credit from the day this transaction closed and probably beforehand he was already thinking how do I get you in touch with the people that I know to do these types of podcast to make friends to make connections and from day one he's not only been true to his word like we met with people you know right after we announced uh and so I think that that's really one of the biggest values and why we wanted to make sure that we have that continuity I said for six months to 12 months uh because it is really important. You don't want to have the founders of a business just disappear overnight. It doesn't feel good for the staff. It doesn't feel good for your partners. It doesn't feel good for your customers. And continuity is one of the most important things that happens in any transaction. Yeah. Because you're, you know, especially the people that make your business are your employees. The people that fund your business are your customers. Mhm. And you need to make sure that they are both happy and that they both feel like there is a future. Um, innovation continues. I I've been reading threads online. I know, you know, people are going to are wondering what's going to happen. Well, we're going to continue innovating. We're more doubling down on what we're doing and doubling down on creating better products, creating better services for our customers. That's really, I think, the most important piece. Yeah. I mean, uh, can't announce any of those things, but behind the scenes, what we're talking about earlier, he had some really good idea ideas of integrating some stuff into PropStream that no one else in this industry can do um, with the partnership they have with Stuart. So, I'm I'm really excited to see what comes on on all of it to be honest. How is it with I mean customers are one thing like, you know, they'll they'll I mean, obviously they're important, but I think about the staff. You know, you guys have like 90 employees and you know, they've been some of them have been with you for a long time. You mentioned your sister Yeah. is is pretty high up and all of a sudden, you know, they're going to be integrated into this new culture of prop. You know, you're going to blend two families. Yeah. We're blended. Yeah. And I'm just curious where their heads at, how you plan to, you know, have that continuity as you're talking about. So for for me, let's just say the Fourth of July week last week, I did not have the most relaxing Fourth of July. There was a lot of outreach to a lot of key members that did not know about the transaction of Yeah. Like how many people could you let know? Well, not very many. But so when when it happened and you know, I come in a prop stream happy like, "What the [ __ ] are you doing, dude?" Um, they're our enemy. And I was like, "Not so much." Um I just they had to digest it. We we had all three all hands meetings that that entire day of like just with uh the badge leads and dialer people. Brian was involved in that too. Just the propstream people that Brian did and then one collectively with introducing the teams together and kind of vision casting but we're married. Um saw those straws drop. Yeah. Like what? Um it it took a few few days to digress. So like I've done a lot of checking in. I did, you know, kind of like a two days later check-in and then with some of the key people um even the day after the fourth was that a Saturday I believe just just letting them digest and the more that they've digested because the missions are similar, the cultures are similar. They were a bootstrap company too before like they still have a ton of those people in in the business. It's just there's a lot of synergies like just on the culture standpoint already to where for my sister for example she's like you know I I really feel comfortable here already and we can now there's chaos going on and you know we have to get all these things figured out of who's reporting to who and you know this and that but like from a like does this feel like a good fit standpoint? All I've heard is positive stuff so far and I'm reassuring them that I'm going to be there because I mean I have a few employees that are going over there that were with me when I was wholesaling before Batch was even there. So like they're just like bruh. Yeah. 10 years ago. Yes. And I mean these are these are people that started with me at 18 that have family and kids now and they're just kind of like you know and I'm like this is an opportunity for you to grow like that we haven't been able to give to you these last couple years. And that's what excited me the most is um having singular singular focus on batch data um and really giving that team the proper respect because they didn't get as much time as I should have been giving them having batch leads and dialer be such a big part of the revenue and but the growth hasn't been what it once was and partnering with you guys and and letting that opportunity come about they have an opportunity to go be a manager now or I I mean the sales guys I'm like you have a lot more people go call and they're excited and they were always battling against the that other great product where like you know how easy it's going to be to sell now. I'm like tell me about it go make your money guys like go have fun like go enjoy this moment and the more they've been able to process it I think the excitement's getting there but I had to be patient because I've had months and months and months to to work through my emotions and it's it's fresh for them. So just letting them get through it and and supporting them has been, you know, hugely important for me personally. So it was really out of the blue for majority of them. I told you I had a big announcement as like a strategic thing, but I didn't present it as any type. I was like, we're going to see a lot of growth. There's going to be a lot new people that we're going to be able to get in front of. I I I didn't lie at all. I just kind of misled to some degree, but but I couldn't say anything. But people knew that I wanted them to know that something big was coming. there's something exciting to get ready for and um I don't think they thought it was going to be, you know, merging with our number one competitor, but yeah. Yeah. After digesting it, everyone's I get it. And I I wonder I'd love to hear how your team feels. Curious how your team was with it. Uh since when I we did the first announcement, I saw those draws drop a little bit. We had a few people under the tent. Uh, but I think the the real tone setting was that third meeting that we had with both teams combined because when we just like a massive Zoom meeting, there's a massive Zoom meeting. Got it. And the thing I really drove home was and I flew out to the batch office because Yeah. Cuz where's your office? In Lake Forest in LA or it's in Orange County. That's where all your guys' employees are. Yeah. And we're mostly remote. So we have a nice work from home culture, but we also have a lot of people that go to the office. Got it. So we try to do a nice, you know, hybrid appro approach. But we went out to the office. Um I did not wear any propion gear so wasn't uh you know given any announcement. Uh but one of the biggest things for me was making sure that his team felt good that I could have some face to face time because that is a big transition. That's a shock for people. Like we've had months to digest this. A couple of our key leaders have had months to digest this but their team didn't. uh when we did the all hands meeting it was really about we have props culture we have batch culture and now we have a new culture these two don't exist anymore we're one team and the one piece I'm really driving home is there is no two companies they are our team we are one team we are one company and the more we resonate that message I think the more that the batch team now PropStream team feels at home feels like they're with the group we already started like day one, integrating them with the meetings, talking about our product roadmaps, our development, our marketing, our sales, and you do that day one because if you let it linger, then they're going to feel isolated and they're going to feel alone. Yeah. And that's the thing what we do not want to happen and have happen. With your employees, Jesse, I mean, I know you guys were bootstrapped. I don't know if you were offering like stock incentives or anything like that. Like, how did it work with them on that front? There there was a few key people that um had it's called a phantom stock, but yeah, there's a few that that were able to to you know get get some nice bonuses or whatever you want to call it. Yeah, they got a good bonus. That's cool. So I guess my next question is um you know obviously you guys are still obviously working through that process and that's going to take time and yeah everything else but you know from PropStream standpoint you know you have this massive title company that acquires PropStream and now Propstream's making its own acquisitions um where I guess Batch doesn't report to Stuart like they would report to you. Yes. Yes. I mean it's a hybrid. So Steuart is obviously the one that funds these transactions because we are part of Stuart, right? And so it is a Steuart acquisition. Um but it comes under prop the PropStream umbrella. Got it. And so yeah, their team everything is part of the PropStream team. Uh that way we we didn't want to have two competing products. Yeah. Because you don't want to compete against yourself. No. And so that's why they're PropStream employees or PropStream team. We all report up to Stuart. um which has actually been a great they're a great company. They're great to work for. Uh but they have really done such a great job honoring what they bought in PropStream. They haven't tried to change our culture, change who we are, what we do. Uh and this is something I repeated to uh the batch staff. We have PropStream employees that have been there more than 10 years. So way before the acquisition and they're still here here today. Yeah. We there was never an instance where we're like, "Okay, Steuart owns you. You need to change." That never happened. And so we have a lot of long-term employees that have seen both sides of the transactions uh the house now with that. And they I think they're God, I can't talk. They are helping your team as well through this because they're saying, "We've we've been here. We've had this firsthand experience and hopefully they're saying it's not so scary like it's going to be okay." Yeah. So what what's your vision for PropStream I guess the next five years right? Is it to continue because like the way I see it is Stuart originally acquired you guys. I mean obviously yeah you guys have IBIDA and revenue and all this stuff but one of the main reasons was front end right and get more potential customers for Stewart through all your frontend marketing right um is the plan to just continue to grow PropStream and and you know obviously you're going to keep growing you know what you guys already do and now Batch is going to support that but is it to get more front-end acquisitions to support that do you have any vision for that I think with the acquisition of batch we kind of have everything we need to to grow. The biggest piece that we were missing was the dialer some of the technologies that they built the AI technologies. To me that 5-year vision is more about creating the best application on the market and being more predictive as to where the market's going to go. Uh we talked about this in your podcast. Uh AI is changing the way that everybody transacts online and more than just a buzzword, more than everybody just saying AI AI and that's you know they just throw it out there. It's really how do you interact with the software? What is your expectation as a user? So when I log in and I'm looking for something user expectation is going to change dramatically over the next three years. And one of the things that we're really focused on is how do we not only meet that expectation, how do we exceed it and how do we drive the next five years of growth. So integrating AI, you know, one thing I was just thinking about when you guys were talking too was, you know, you were saying, hey, like batch data, you know, use our data, it's better. um as a consumer one thing like I've just uh maybe this is a blanket statement like oh you know the data at batch or propstream it's all very similar data why I mean you you you've been behind the scenes so I know you can't proprietary say why it's better but like I don't know why is it better why did they they have their own data before and they were around before you guys so what made your data more special. Um, I believe I I could only say so much, but you know that they license their data from certain people. We do too, but we we aggregate in a different way and then we repurpose it. We clean it. So, it's how you process the data. It's how we process it. It's and and then we have like machine learning going on behind LLM models like um some proprietary data sets um having feedback loops um from firstparty applications like our dialer like um batch leads and able to really process it and do it differently to where we get some uplifts in in different areas with let's like use for example AVM modeling or bed and bathroom count we're were better than um you know a core logic or a black knight because of how we source, how we aggregate, how we how we clean it and put it together and and all these different it's it's more of an EVO question. He's the brilliant brainchild behind a lot of this along with um Omar and Jibon and and some of the other people. But and then just some of the AI stuff that we're creating behind the scenes likelihood to sell or likelihood to buy and that takes a lot of time, a lot of modeling. And so it's we're not just like some data company that's licensing from someone else and reselling it to to someone like Brian. Like we're we're doing our own thing. We're putting our own sauce in it. Um, and our and our goal is to really make sure that all those applications and in this type of space and and home services, if they have, you know, a software, we want to be that back-end partner to them that they could trust with really good contact data and also really good property data. And that's that's really where my focus will be these next handful of years is making sure we continue to be innovative on that side so I can support the the propstream uh you know application and and others you know similar too. Got it. So you guys are just that much better at once you have the data knowing what to do with it. Yeah. and and treating it differently and just processing, aggregating and and our APIs are like very much purposebuilt because we built them for batch leads and for batch dollar. So we know what these customers or these software applications want and we just build them differently. Um because a lot of these legacy companies are just legacy companies that have data and have 10-year contracts. Um yeah, they don't need to innovate. and we're trying to interate in innovate, disrupt, and piss them off and eventually they'll write us a check, too. So, Got it. That's the plan. Got it. So, I'm just curious like with a software company like both of your guys' um where data is like uh obviously a big part of it, if not the whole part of it really. Um, what I've always just thought about this, but like what percentage of like your guys's revenue comes from just like the monthly subscription versus like the usage of the softwares? They're they're basically bundled together to be honest with you. So So now it's just all the month. The name of the game and as I know you're you kind of have a subscription model for for your coaching is like that you you don't want inapp revenue. you want it to figure out ways to make it into a subscription that someone keeps paying for month over month over month and if they use or don't use that that is that is on them but it also simplifies the process of they know what they're paying for they they know what they're getting as well um so having opportunities for them to upsell and as they need to consume more that's basically the name of the game and you could add to that no I agree and I think the biggest pieces I would want our users to know is we don't nickel and dime for things, right? Anything that's a hard cost, obviously, you know, postcards, things like that, we charge for because you have to. But as far as the SAS or having the monthly revenue, that's what we do. We don't track on the usage and we want our customers to use the software. We incentivize them to use it. We try to train them and teach them. We don't want to penalize them for actually trying to do their jobs and to make a living, right? And one of the messaging which I love with Batch is very similar is we like to be more than just a software company. And we said since really I think at the core of our mission what we do we're not just selling software we are selling the ability for people to make a living. We're selling the ability for people to be entrepreneurs to be independent to be financially independent financially secure. And that is always the core of what we try to develop and what we do in the application every day. And our employees know it, our customers know it. Uh and it's the same thing with batch. And so I think as we've come together, that's what's made this so easy. I mean, Ryan, you do the exact same thing, just differently. Yeah. Yeah. I I've just thought about it because um you know, you look at uh certain apps and it's like one model is free and then usage or ads, right? And then the other model is subscription and then basically like maybe minor upsells or minor usage or whatever. We don't do that. So we don't charge by zip code. We don't charge by lead list. Yeah. We don't do any of those things. Once you have a a subscription, nationwide data lead list, create your own. We want to incentivize people to to to learn to grow to be independent to do business. Why would we penalize them for using our software? Yeah. You have a quote of amount of leads to pull and those are different subscriptions for that new to use the platform holistically like we you know we and you batch stream as I call it um batch stream. But yeah, I mean we we always had the same vision like we used to have a lot of add-ons and this and that and we really cons at the batch leads over those last couple years. We really consolidated that to make it much simpler for someone to understand what they're getting, how they're getting it. Um and that's what we did too. It just became smarter and easier. Exactly. It's like all right, go here for this, go here for that. It's like boom, here's the cost. You get it all. Yeah, I agree. So um I guess when you look at the state of this industry and when I say this industry let's just talk like the real estate investor industry so flippers wholesalers buy and hold you know all these guys like what does the data actually say like is this industry of people doing it growing contracting you know because we know that there's less realtors today than there was two years ago we know there's less transaction Like do you see that people are getting more excited about this industry? Like what are you seeing? I think so. I think most people are waiting for that one thing to change and that one thing is interest rates. If we took down like a whole point in interest rates and they get down to like the low sixes guy, if we were at the high fives, I think this industry would blow up. There's so much pent-up demand. There's so many people that have been holding on to their homes for longer periods of time that want to move, that need to move, that need to expand, that need to grow their families, or maybe even they their house is too big and they want to contract. There's so much pent up out there. And I think once we start to see that downshift and the downswing in interest rates, then it's going to explode and the opportunity out is going to be, I think, almost akin to what it was 5 years ago where deals are really going to start to flow. Not because interest rates are at a historic low, but because there's so much out there, so much pent up users, people needing to move, wanting to move that it's just, you know, it's going to be, I would say, back to what it was in 2000. And I know there's big REITs and funds like eager and waiting as well. So, you know, I I know there's a lot of rental properties that want to get traded and there's a lot of apartment complexes and um you know, a lot of things don't make sense or people are upside down and they're just holding and waiting. So there's a ton of pent-up demand. Like you know Jared Vidalis did a builder run community that I invested in in Mesa and he's like bro we just we need like a half a percent and he's like we could we could make something on it now but he's like there's so much builtup demand but like the numbers just don't pencil out. He's like I have a great product. It's fully leased. It's cash flowing but I need it to cash flow more so we could get you know better. There's so much and that's just a small example of a little 20 unit. Think of all, you know, the the large large multif family deals that are just stuck in limbo right now. Yeah. Last year, I think there was a sh a slight downshift in interest rates for um 30-year mortgage and transactions literally for that month grew, you know, substantially. Yeah. And it was a really short-lived thing because they went the home rates went right back up. But for that little period of time, I mean, you really saw how much is going to change with even a quarter point half point. What do you What do you think? What are you seeing? What are your thoughts? Um, I think the rest of this year, I mean, we're filming right now in July of 25. I think the rest of this year's slow. Um, I think that we'll get the half point at some point the rest of this year. Hopefully this month, but yeah. Uh, if not this month, then you know, probably September or whatever. But yeah, I mean, I just Here's why I think it's slow no matter what. It's because even if they do it now, we're going to head into the winter. It's true. The winter's always slow anyway. So, it's like if they don't, this is what I think. If they don't do it, then I think there's like a blood bath in the winter. And if they do do it, I think it's just going to normalize for the winter. So either way, my my ini my vision is that yeah, come spring of 26, you know, things are going to be like cranking, but I think we still have six to nine months of pretty much what we pretty much survive in 25. That's what I think. I see a little different in 23. I see the optimism a little bit differently because I've talked with Brian and what we've seen just we both have large user bases and like Yeah, that's what I'm asking. new customers have picked up for us on both sides. Both of the products he bought have ticked up a decent amount this year. I know and I'm currently selling more students than ever too. So I think um you know we we'll see transactions but I think if interest rates go down I think transaction if we want to talk transactionally I think you know compared to last winter this time or even a quarter before a quarter before that I actually think winter could beat you know these summer months to be honest with you. I hope um and and just seeing you know like you know when they really got bad fast I saw a decline in in in user base I've seen that the last nine months a little bit more confidence a little bit more confidence a little bit more confidence and I think if interest rates drop and I think transactions will happen and then I think that will snowball into more people wanting to get into it because there's more people being successful. So I I'm a little more bullish than I think you are but I'm not certain. But from the trends that I've seen inside my own data and internal stuff that I'm looking at, it it looks more optimistic than pessimistic. And if we do get that half point or full point, I think that will kind of be the catalyst. Well, you said something too that I always really drive home and what I tell um our employees as well. Interest rates, it's always a good metric, but consumer confidence to me is the most important thing. Yeah. That you could look at. Interest rates go up and down. E, you know, the stock market goes up and down. But how does a user feel? How confident are they to take on a transaction, to move, to take on a mortgage, to invest in a property, to wholesale? That consumer confidence to me drives everything. And if people are feeling more confident because of the state of the economy as a whole, then you'll really start to see that shift. And, you know, I I agree with you. I think there's going to be more confidence coming and hopefully we get to see more normalization by the end of the year. But to Ryan's point, I think it could take a little bit time for that really to shift into a bunch more transactions being done. But I would say for us as business owners, I could see it being very good for us because if confidence is good and it's starting to snowball, we're just going to see people spending more, doing more, ramping up their marketing. Um, yeah, the message needs to be, hey, it's already turning. You got to get started now. So for all three of us, let's say, it's already turning. Let's get started now. Well, but it hasn't turned yet. So, but I do think but you want to be ahead of the game. You don't want to be for sure. I agree. Like for me, I just think um with so, you know, obviously we we all sell real estate products for wholesale and flipping and stuff like that. Um but being like on social media, I get to talk to a lot of business owners. Um especially with just like our different workshops and things that are just general business and what it it's just like the weirdest market ever because on one hand all the signs of like um you know growth are still there. It's like oh stocks are at like all-time highs and housing prices are at all-time highs and you know the richest of the rich are getting richer. you know, Elon's net worth and all these things are like rising at rates we've never seen. Um, and so you see like, you know, and I talked to a lot of my rich friends, too. They're like, "Bro, I'm doing better than ever. You know, my stocks are killing it. All these things are killing it." And then I talked to the small business owner and they're getting killed. And I'm like, dude, like, you know, any small business, whether you're a small realtor or a small, you know, flower shop or like people are just not spending money the way they used to spend money. And so it's like when I'm feeling out what I think, I I'm listening to like the general public versus like the big shots because the big shots are killing it right now. They really are. I could say the same thing because some of the big investors are doing better than ever because I think they're killing it. I think because they're so much better than uh and have so much they're not scared to spend because the processes and the sales team and everything's so dialed in. But some of my friends that have the twoman teams, the three man teams, they're struggling. Um that's funny because I was like I was like what are you talking about? All these guys are doing good. Like what's your problem? Like you're just not good enough. Like get better. Um, but that that does it's the people that are willing to spend the money right now are reaping the rewards and the people that are scared because it hasn't been great, they're retracting even further because they're not spending the marketing dollars like they should or their systems and SOPs just aren't buttoned up to be able to maximize, you know, the leads that you're getting. Well, I also think that it's just a talent issue too of that when things are harder, you have to be more talented. You can't just flip it to a hedge fund and call 200 people and you're in. Like it takes a lot more talent to close a deal right now than it did three years ago. So I think you have a talent issue. Um good point. I also think that this is how I see it personally. I think this is like a transition year very much like COVID where it's like a year of flux where people don't really know how it's going to play out. And so there's people making big bets and big moves who are going to reap a lot of rewards in 26 and 27 and then there's people who are like getting destroyed. And like that's what CO showed us. It's like lots of people True lost their jobs, got destroyed, lots of people went to the moon. It's true. There was very few people that it was just like whatever for created more disparity and that's what I that's kind of the point I'm getting at. I think disparity is going to keep growing further and further. Yeah. No, I I agree. And I think aside from like you said, like it's talent, it's that perseverance and dedication. Yeah. That you are not going to be able to jump in like it was years ago and have a deal spoonfed to you or just they're coming from the sky. Uh that's not what's going to be happening. You need to you know have a little bit more grit and the wherewithal to say I need to go farm these deals. I need to go look. I need to make these phone calls. And you might call 10, 20, 100 people, but you're looking for that one deal, right? And once you get that one deal, then you learn, okay, this is how I did this. And how could you recreate the formula? And how could you keep trying to persevere through a hard market? And if you could do that now, yeah, when the market turns around, you're going to kill it. How have both of you guys being software companies kind of handled new customer acquisition? Because it's an interesting thing I've thought about selling like leads and software now, too. It's like if you're providing strictly just um the tools, they don't know how to use them. And so like how do you go about finding new customers while also training them to have grit and make the calls and say the right things? Because then at that point, you're like almost an education company as well. And like that was kind of the the realization I had was was like, man, dude, I could give them the best leads in the world, but if they don't know how to talk to sellers, like it doesn't matter, right? And so it becomes like they they're both needed education and tools. So I would say, you know, having great affiliates that use your product and train, you know, the people that they're bringing in on your product. And I know we've done this to a small degree, you guys have done it to a great degree, is having they have a lot of courses inside their platform to show them how to get deals, to show them how to use the software, to show them how to do all the things. And it's it's an education company to some degree. U we just don't charge for it. You know, that's built into the subscription to get access for those things. Um I think at one point or batch I don't even know if we had a payw wall for some of our um you know uh courses that we had. I'm I'm pretty sure you didn't even have to have a subscription to to go to to have it. And I think we may have had some for both sides for funnels and so on and so forth. But yeah, to your point is um we could have the best software in the world if if they don't do anything with it or know how to use it or don't know how to talk to a seller properly. There's only so much we could do. you probably have a little bit more of an advantage being running, you know, still wholesale operation and giving them leads and helping them with some of those things. So, um, that's an interesting question. I don't know if you have more to add. No, I think coaching is important, but the education piece, I've said the same thing. You can have the best tool in the world. If your users don't know how to use it, it doesn't mean anything. And I know at PropStream, that has been something we've really focused on is that education piece. We have the PropStream Academy. We actually hired teachers, lesson planners, people that know how to do this and they create full learning lessons to walk you through it. And we try we have multiple formats. We have short form where you could try to learn something in more consumable pieces. And then we have the full learning lessons which maybe is 30 minutes or an hour where you could actually learn how do you do your job and many different pieces. What's the best way to wholesale? What's the best way to do fix and flip? What's the best way to use the software to find what you need, right? Uh and so we've really kind of doubled down on user education. We've done that for a long time with even I remember I was like damn it like we don't have that. Yeah, they got a lot of stuff going on and that that was like four or five years ago and so we did some stuff but we also and you know they have and we had you know a ton of affiliates who and we would do a challenges and it's it's so important to make sure that people are truly understanding the functionality and then you know having those right partners that are showcasing your product and getting on the phone calls and showing people how to actually get the deals done. I mean to your point that's that's a huge crucial part of not getting them there but keeping them there. Yeah. And that's why I think coaches are so important too where% having your affiliates and your partners and the the coaching base like what you do is where you know we could partner with those people and provide those resources cuz nothing beats a onetoone interaction. Nothing beats being able to ask questions to a live person. And so I we really try to support that community through and that's another reason we did the academy is not just for our users but for our partners, our affiliates. Yeah. And the coaches use this. Go learn. You could take this model and teach your students. Yeah. So what's been for both of you guys like the number one way to acquire customers these days? Uh I would say paid paid search. Paid search. Yeah. Paid ad PBC. PBC. Uh uh Google and YouTube uh I think are the biggest and best too. I don't know what you're able So you guys are just running ads saying hey you know you looking for skip tracing help you looking for offmarket sellers. Not quite. You're you're telling more of a not really that's feature dumping. You're more telling a story. Do you want your life to change? Like this product could help you do that and having some of our affiliates do ads and saying hey so it' be similar to how we get customers too. Like hey you should start wholesaling and here's the tool. Exactly. So, here's what we have. We have this or uh we have a lot of different ads. We we will have funnels go straight to like our our free course like, "Hey, are you a realtor or an investor and and want to learn more about, you know, getting your first deal? Go here." And then then, you know, batch is baked into that. It's not always saying, "Hey, here's great features. Go do this." That's not necessarily the case. Like, you're not going to say the great features that you have for coaching. You're going to say, "Do you want to change your life? I'm here to help you do that." Right? Um still the same type of of marketing. We're just selling, you know, software and but as I as Brian said too, we're doing so much more than just here's a software tool. You have to train them to use it. Exactly. We all have features and that's when I agree when you start just only focusing on the future, it's just going to be one company to the next to the next. Exactly. Because we all have the same. But I think the story is what matters. Do you want to change your life? Do you want to be financially independent? what vision are we selling and the this lifestyle and and teaching people that method. Of course, features are great and you always want to be, you know, at looking at what people are doing and providing the best tools and features to your users, but when you're doing that marketing, I know you talked about the Google and um the YouTube, we try to we have a multi-funnel approach. We have a lot of direct SEO marketing and we have our affiliate sales base. And so we really try to encompass all of our customers whether they're come from our affiliates supporting our coaches or our direct customers. We have like many different methods that we market through. Got it. For me, like I I understand the affiliate method because it's like a controlled cost like as they come in like you know for sure it's going to be good. Um, with paid, I'm just curious because, you know, we're just seeing rising and rising marketing costs. You know, like customer acquisition cost is increasing across the board. And so, like if we're talking about trying to acquire the same customer, like I know our acquisition cost is thousands of dollars to get somebody to buy one of ours. Yeah. And you know, I mean, things we're selling are thousand bucks a month minimum. Yeah. See, yours is a little bit more expensive. Different customer acquisition costs. But I'm just curious like for you guys with you know what's the average monthly subscription like 100 to 200 bucks a month. So like how do you acquire customers without going so deep in the whole you know well at the end of the day you look at the the lifetime value of your whole customer base and um then you have to figure out a way what does it cost me and how many months am I willing to wait? Yep. And and that that's it. And you know, and then really getting better at expanding the customers that you do have cuz like you could roll out a new feature and having tens of thousands of customers like you just got a bunch more money every month. So it's like keeping it, growing it. But uh I I'd say it needs to be, you know, a reasonable dollar amount for what our first month costs. But I think that's just having, as Brian said, he gave a much more sophisticated answer. I just was I I gave you the simple answer, but but he's not right. you're having a a full omni channel approach of of how you're doing this cuz some cost more than others and once it gets blended. Um I know we had a number that made sense to where we could we could have continued to you know spend more to acquire more customers and it and it still makes sense and I feel like they've done an even better job than we have at that. And I from what he's told me stuff I can't share but he they have some secret sauce that's that's real good. I want to hear about it. Well, you know, the the other thing too is when you talk about customers and and keeping them and so the lifetime value, it's also to me it's customer service. This is a very small market and for as big as real estate is, it's a small community. It's a tight-knit community. Word of mouth matters. How big do you think the TAM is? I wouldn't venture a guess at the moment. Okay. Um, we always get this. I I'm saying active people that are like doing the business at least a little part-time right now. I'd say between 100 and 200,000 people would be my guess. Okay. What do you think? Well, it's a little bit different for me because to me my TAM is like 20 million people because there's 20 million people that are interested in real estate or making money. And so the way that we attract people top of funnel is like I'm introducing this idea of wholesaling and flipping, right, amongst many other ideas that they're interested in. And so then they make that choice. So like that's why I was curious how you guys market because it's like you're already going after the 200,000 wholesalers that currently exist. Yeah. Your funnel is is a little bit wider because someone saying I wonder I just want to make money. Yeah. That's my funnel. Well, that's that's what what I'm saying. It's it's hard to venture, I guess. It depends on the market. If you're targeting realtors, that's like a million. Yeah. It's it's a 1 to 1.5 million. Yep. Active. Uh if you're targeting people that want to get into this business, well, you know, look at the demographics. If are you over 18 between 18 and 50 and you know, look at the and that's the thing that secret sauce. Look, what are you focusing on people searching? What are they looking for? Are they looking for that financial wealth, that independence? Uh they don't even know wholesaling is yet, right? actual wholesalers or people actively doing it. Yeah. So like a total marketability like it's, you know, tens of millions of people. Yeah. So that's how you guys perceive it too. You're not just targeting flippers and wholesalers. You're like, "Hey, everyone's a candidate essentially who wants to make money." It is. And so we really focus on those keywords and what people are looking for. How how do I invest into real estate? And those are the things that we look at to make sure that PropStream is always recognized brand and we have that that brand equity and we look at, you know, a lot of that. Given that's the secret sauce, might want to cut that out. Uh but it's it's really that that lifestyle search. Yeah. And we try to focus not on just Jesse said the features um but also what is somebody looking for in general. Yeah. And I don't even think it's that I guess um secret in that it's like you just look at any form of marketing today, you always selling the result, not the process or the feature. It's like, oh dude, like you know, I want to be like Ryan. He gets to hang out with his family and go on vacations and you know, play golf and like how did he do it? It's like, oh well, here's how. Yeah. you had a great video the other day of um I think you put it out a couple days ago but it was about you know talking about having all the things that you love to do and you're like I don't have to be super passionate about all the work things I do because it serves me to get things that I really love to do. You're like I won't do something I don't like anymore but like do I am I super excited with all the prep work that goes into this event? You're like no I'm not. But what it gives me outweighs that to some degree. And I think people think that once you get all this money or like I've had a million people, what are you gonna do? I'm like still have another business to grow. I still have a a deep passion to continue to, you know, build what I'm building. Um that will never change. Like I I can't only have hobbies. You know what I mean? I I have to have, you know, that purpose. I tell people that all it cracks me up because we're talking about calling sellers. Well, I'm like, "How many of you guys like cold calling?" You know, it's like no one. I'm like, "All right, I get it." Freaking I don't either. Nobody wants to cold call. Like, if you do, you're crazy. Yeah. Um, but how many of you like making 20 grand on a deal, you know? Yeah. So, guess what? Like, you know, do you want to put in the work or not? You know, how many you guys want a six-pack, you know? Well, be like Jesse and eat a salad for dinner. You know, if if you don't if you don't want to do that, then you ain't going to get one. Like, it's it's it's all sacrifice and discipline. and what are you willing to sacrifice and what type of discipline are you willing to have? Um, but I I think you know when you do these things and and power through cuz like nothing is like I don't love practicing golf every freaking day. Um, then there's certain things that aren't fun practicing but when you get on the course and you could execute that shot that you haven't executed before. That's why I don't practice. I just play play a lot. And but you have good coaches and I mean you you put the work in. Yeah. Yeah. I'll get mentors and and all that stuff. But, you know, it's just like, you know, we each all all of us each have an expensive watch on right now. There's all of them tell the same time. So, there's there's the feature. But, you know, what feeling does it give you? Yeah. Why does it give it to you? And that's I think why did you buy that watch? You you got paid and that was your first purchase. I think it was my fault. That was actually a little bit to do with him. I was like, I like these strap watches. And he's like, well, why don't we get you one? And got a little batch blue on it. And I just I this is just the one I liked and I wanted something different to the collection. It literally was super impulsive. We're It was the night before we're selling. Um and we're sitting at the house prepping for all the stuff we had to do the next day. And yeah, he just he had the protect Philipe on with a cool band. I'm like, "Oh, I want one of these." Good job, Brian. I I love it. When he said we became friends, like literally like we would just sit there and BS for a couple hours. So Brian's a watch guy. How many watches do you have? Nine. Dang, dude. That's a lot of watches. I only have four. What's your favorite? Uh, between my IWC, the the Spitfire and the Chronographs. Um, and my PC. What kind of PC is it? It's a Aquinaut Travel Time. I'll have to look it up. Oh, you know what? I actually do think I know what that that's like a rubber strap, right? Yeah, I I do know which one that is. It's like very sleek. And you know, there's ones I have um Line's Master Collection that complete calendar. I mean, does everything. And so I think even the value of a watch, it doesn't have to be crazy expensive if you just really like it. So is that why you're the CEO of PropStream, just to fill your watch? Is that your purpose? You got it. Yeah, I figured. I figured Jesse's is to play more golf and get everything else. Yeah. Just I mean, me and you have very similar hobbies. It's It's golf. It's family. Yeah. I'm excited to have a little smaller team. So, I feel like I'll be able to travel a little bit more without uh as many distractions. Maybe not the next couple months, but yeah. Um in the future. And and that's some of the stuff that I'm very much so looking forward to. Yeah. Well, I think it's awesome. You know, I I just for for me, I've known you now for I don't even know how long. Six, seven, eight years. It's been a while. Long time. And um so to see you know you come up all these years around the same time and now have a big exit it it inspires me um and encourages me of like okay dude it's time to level up and do the next thing and then you know to to meet you guys and see what you're doing and I'm like all right well freaking maybe I'll be like Jesse and I'll sell a prop stream one day you know we'll be back here whenever I'll be like all right so why did we do this let's have a conversation Ryan yeah so but no It just really does uh bring me like inspiration for like what you've been able to do. And um it's also going to be cool to see the next steps because it's like also cool to see like you called me when it happened and I'm like bro cuz uh I invited you to a golf trip and I was like bro you got to come to Payne's Valley. We're doing this golf trip. You know it's going to be sick. He's like dude I have like a really big meeting Monday. He didn't say what. I said really big product launch is what I told you basically but he's like I got you. I'll pay. Like come. Yeah. I was like, I'll He was so mad at me. I'm like, I I was like, it's really big. He's like, this trip's going to be epic. It's not big enough. And I I kept telling him no. And I felt so bad. I'm a hard sales guy, too. I Yeah. When he wants something or he's like, I want to whoop your ass. Like, I've worked really hard to be good at golf. Yeah. Um and I'm like, it's going to have to wait just a little bit longer. And then, but I felt so bad. He was like one of my first phone calls cuz he's been so nice and eager to like do some stuff together. And I know how busy you are. Yeah. And I'm like, Ryan probably never gets blown off. And I just I said no to like three things in a row cuz it was all around this time. I'm like I'm like Ryan this is what happened. You're like okay I get I get it now. It's all good. I just have to whoop you another day soon. Um but no it's just cool to see. And then I just love hearing the behind the scenes of how it happens because it just makes me smarter of like okay like why why would a strategic partner be interested in their top competitor? And and we were planning to go to market later this year and we weren't on the market. So like I I want to make that clear too. is like when we talked and the linement that we had and what it meant, I wasn't willing to risk, you know, like I knew the the team that's going over how they're going to be treated and what it's going to look like. It was worth me not going that route because me and Evo talked about what made sense for us uh you know, financially and for both of the businesses and and being a partner to you guys as well on on the other side and you guys supporting us there to some degree. That that meant a lot to me too. And the the friendship that we've created is probably Did you have to use a broker since you kind of found the buyer? Yes. Um we were already with someone. We'd already signed with someone. So talk about a We're able to renegotiate that a little bit. Dude, I already have the guy. Um but they they were fantastic, but they kind of I don't think we're used to taking a backseat. Me and you kind of ran this deal with um a gentleman over at Steuart as well, and he does not like investment bankers whatsoever. He just wants to spit on his hand and Yeah. I mean, and do a shake. He's a person of his word. I mean, what he's when he says, "This is what we're going to do," he sticks to it. I am I am like above the moon cuz I I really feel like you guys got to win. We got to win. And I've heard nightmare stories going through transactions and people absolutely just fighting those last. Um, like there was moments, but like in retrospect it was they were all little things and people were getting huffy and puffy over stuff that 10 days later doesn't matter all that much. Um, we got it done. But I feel very blessed to, you know, put this together with you because um, it it doesn't always happen this way and um, I got like a friend and someone that I look up to as well and he's he's taught me a lot already. So, I'm I'm just excited as you me and you were just always eager to learn and want to be around dope people and yeah, he's one of them. Dope. Thank you. So, as we wrap up, Brian, what's the future for PropStream? What are the next steps? Uh, there's a lot of steps. Uh, I really say the future is our commitment to our product, to our customers, uh, to making something I think the industry hasn't seen, which is again that that all-in-one solution. How do we make our customers lives easier? How do we make them more successful? Uh, and how do we give them the tools to succeed? Yeah. And I think that's really our core focus. Awesome. Well, guys, appreciate you both. Uh, we will link to all your guys' stuff down below. You know, Jesse's going to be posting more on YouTube. He told me. Yep. New YouTube channel. Just look up my first and last name. He's going to be doing podcasts and stuff with other tech founders and Got you on there. Yep. Yep. Coming soon. We'll be uh linking to those things and then obviously PropStream, you know, link to that and you know, it's going to be cool to see what you guys accomplish. So, appreciate you guys sharing and uh opening up and guys, make sure you subscribe. Base.