[Music] hi Shannon Waller here with Dan Sullivan on inside strategic coach Dan I love letting people in on what we talk about and one of the things that we were chatting about in a very recent conversation was the fact that you are kind of binary in your thinking I'm super intrigued by it I find it interesting it's certainly something that has always made sense to me but I thought today might be a great day to do a deeper dive into what binary thinking is why it matters how people can take advantage of it and why you are so clear that this approach is the one that creates the most useful thinking and power for other people yeah well binary I mean you can see it in electricity you you don't get a charge until you have a positive and a negative so binary simply means that you've got opposites that are in relationship with each other okay and I was thinking about it because of recent political events geopolitical events and we as a company came down totally on one side of the current situation in the Middle East and people said you know a lot of people try to find sort of a neutral position in the middle when you're running a business and I said you know I find the middle gets you nowhere okay so I said what I do is I always pick a side because you immediately begin learning uh enormous amount about the side that you've chosen and why you've chosen so you have to really go deep with the side but on the other hand you have to really really understand the other side so it's not that I ignore the other side then I really start understanding and my instincts are you know pretty good I've put in a lot of decades but people who sit in the middle and they say well on the one hand and on the other hand I find they just lose both their hands if you try to be a neutral person you just disappear as a person because you're not for anything you know so always immediately in any situation I always say this is the one that I favor right off the bat and then people say well why do you do that and then I have to go deeper and I have to understand my thinking and you know there's usually historical reasons for it so so that's what I mean by binary but interestingly enough our whole economy with the digital code so much of our is binary it's zero or one there's no middle and people said yeah but when we get to Quantum Computing and I said well I don't have a quantum computer and I don't know anybody who does but as long as I'm using this computer it's binary so I think there's a certain relationship between how the major your economic force in your world operates and it operates on binaries one zero electricity is positive negative and it produces tension it produces energy it produces breakthroughs but I think trying to be neutral it doesn't teach you anything and it doesn't get you anywhere and I find that really fascinating and another comment that you made was I strive to have a judgment about everything if you don't take sides you can't learn anything yeah which I think is not a common approach but you use it very strategically well I'm not a common person true story oh are you no no I'm not our client base are not neutral people right they bet on themselves 100% And then they have to learn what the BET means and how you make the BET work you know so but I think that there's this sense that you should just be tolerant and non-judgmental and I never met any human being who was nonjudgmental I know a lot of people who say they're not judgmental but mention something that doesn't correspond to what they believe and they go like this and they they immediately went binary the problem is they think they're non-judgmental I judge everything I mean you only become successful by making increasingly more successful judgment yeah yeah on that point Dan and one of the things that I really love about so many of our tools is that you bring that thinking into the tools and we're going to do another podcast on that shortly it's like best and worst and out of that creates the standards yeah which without analyzing your best experience without analyzing your worst experience you do not know your own standards and applying those standards is part of having good judgment so could you speak to that because I can think of all of the different exercise including impact filter where you pull out the best and the granddaddy or grandmother whichever way you want because you know I'm I'll play Both Sides anyway is the strategy Circle which is 41 years old and that's based on a formula that we discovered afterwards because we began to see that there was a formula that was a binary formula you have a vision in the future it has a death line it has a date it's got measurable results and immediately come up all the obstacles in the present that oppose you achieving your vision in the future you've just created a binary a complete binary okay but here's the thing the obstacles are not negative the obstacles are raw material so the obstacles are the raw material that only came up because you had a particular specific specific measurable Vision in the future with a deadline and your brain says oh this is serious business so what's of all the experience everything you're doing right now that doesn't support the future and then you identify them and you write them all down on the form and then you say obstacle number one now how do I transform this into a decision into a communication into an action that now takes me from the obstacle to the achiev then you go down and you do that with all and that's how it works so when I confronted with a situation I say I'm just going to take this side okay now having committed to that side I want that side to be right then all the opposing views are obstacles and they're raw materials so I take the other person's position and I turn it into raw material to strengthen my position and you get really good at transforming those obstacles into strategies yeah cool let's talk about another tool then let's talk about the impact filter because I find you know with the impact filter there's whatever it is idea that you're thinking about purpose importance ideal action and then there's the best result if it goes the way that you want and there's two versions of the worst result and the one you always start with is if we don't do anything like in other words what's the opportunity cost of not taking action and then I usually add or if it doesn't go poorly and that talking about creating tension it really does create tension and and then the success criteria for me how I coach it is what's going to ensure the best and prevent the worst yeah and it's just incredibly powerful to get clear on your own perspective which is what our thinking about our Thinking Tools do and it's so illustrative where there's no way you could get that unless you went to that best and worst extreme my experience is your brain really likes this activity because it gets the brain real stuff to work with it's not wimpy thinking you know you got to really have muscle to do this right you know but on the other hand it makes me very interested in why the people who don't think my way where that came from so I ask him a lot of questions well how did you get on this line of thinking okay well I'm not arguing with them right I'm not arguing with them I just want to say Well I'm pretty clear why I've chose this side I just want to see if you're really clear about why you chose your side I'm not quite getting it here and it forces them to think you know or they say I don't even want to talk about well they weren't worth talking to you know and a lot of people just aren't sure of their own thinking they have very strong opinions about their thinking but they have no real Foundation or basis for their thinking right and I like beating up on people people like that I don't experience you beating up on people I'm not beating up in a physical way and I just say well I don't think you're real clear why you think this way you know in politics I've been straight ticket one party since 1968 in the United States and I'm straight ticket one party here in Canada because I'm a dual Citizen and people say but what if there was a really great person on the other side I still wouldn't vote for him I says because I don't like the ideas that have formed your policies your programs I just don't like the ideas I don't think they work I don't think you're immoral I don't think you're unethical I just think that what you're calling for really doesn't work but it's forced me to really go into history to find out where their thought processes came from so you know I'm I'm not a Marxist no you're not but I've read Marx I've read everything that led up to Marx I've read the thinkers that Marx I mean Marx was an original he was just aggregating five or six streams of thought and he's a very good writer I mean Marx is a phenomenally good writer you can understand why he was so persuasive I mean he fundamentally his thinking I won't say it transformed the world but it certainly changed the world it disrupted the world yeah but they haven't read anything that supports why they think I've read all the stuff right you know going back 400 years I know we're current left-wing thinking in the world I'll use left as they use the word left so I'll use the word left and I said y yep I've read that but that's not what it said if you're going to B your thinking on it at least get right what they actually said that person didn't say that people interpret him that said that but that's not what the original person Marx has a very short book called The Communist Manifesto 1848 I think 184 you can read it in two hours I read it once a year in two hours I really know it and it just always says you know a lot of trouble in the world started with this book but the other thing is that I'm a lifetime sports fan of certain teams I grew up Catholic there's this whole notion of sin you have to work on your sins before you go to heaven but it serves me no person to give up on the team that I've have supported all my lifetime because you can tell when they're getting better you can tell when they seem to be turning the corner and so I just always believe in the moment there's two possibilities always take one side and going back to your previous comment about Marx and Communist Manifesto it makes you a very formidable opponent with which to debate because you have to know your own thinking and your history to come up against you so Dan I find it to your point also so clarifying when you choose a stand you know choose a side and really understand the other side I love that it has you be curious about how someone else is thinking about not you make a judgment but you're curious about why someone thinks the way that they do what's their experience that led them to that what have they read how they educated themselves so there's actually a graciousness that goes with that whereas someone who just holds an opinion without it necessarily educating themselves or is more wishy-washy on it they're less curious and less open to ideas and conversation and debate which I find just a cool aspect of this and then translating this to business and to life for me which vacations really worked for you which didn't where was your best free day what was your worst free day what was your best team member what was your worst what was your best client what was your worst I mean so many of our tools and how we help people improve you know how they approach things is based on exactly this way of operating it's a very core element of Coach you know I've met people who I have an enormous amount in common with except on voting day and I have great conversation with them but they're open-minded and curious I mean come voting day we don't vote the same way and you know you don't get too involved in that discussion because it's like the third rail of the subway you know you go you you know it leads to all sorts of other things but one thing I believe is that every person is a complete Universe of experience of learning and if you were able to get to the center of that person's universe everything they do makes a great deal of sense okay so I'm curious why someone who I consider to be really intelligent we have enormous amount of ability to cooperate and to communicate on a whole number of subjects but on this one topic and I said H you know and then you go back to their childhood who they grew up with who their parents were and everything you begin to realize you know it makes total sense it makes total sense to me why you believe that way I still think it's wrong but I understand exactly why you think this way and it makes total sense yeah and there's something about that I mean you always said this Dan people do things for their reasons not ours and you kind of get it after you have that approach yeah but I do know you can only have a conversation if you show respect for who the person is yes very I've been Ron on certain Topics in my life but it's only because I respect other people's position yeah that I can reverse my own nice I want to say that again it's only because I respect other people's opinions that I can reverse my own yeah right cool so respect is a really key element of this yeah so Dan just moving to how people can take practical action with this so when people are are kind of finding themselves in the middle or in a debate or any of these situations or they're being cautious about making a judgment what is your recommendation to people to just choose a side and go for it to look at their best and worst past experiences like what's your favorite piece of advice for someone when they're being sort of confused well pick one side and see what happens with your thinking and then try out the other side and see what happens to your thinking which side is your best thinking for example I did a test once and it was in a very short period period of time you had to create Simplicity out of complexity and you were given 30 or 40 different things to kind of say well what's the system that unifies this and you were given five minutes to do this and you have sensors on your head and they wanted to watch your stress level see what happened to your stress level because you couldn't do it in five minutes right and I had it all handled in a little bit over a minute and the person said you created two categories here how could you possibly create a category for this pile and this pile I said I like this one I don't like that one he said yeah but what's the category I said it's not an intellectual thing it's just I like this I don't like this and I would say sides in anything I like this side I don't like that side so it's not intellectual it's emotional oo okay okay talk more about that so it's not intellectual it's emotional so which one works better for you feels better our emotions come before our thinking I mean we lead with emotion or I think you're more successful in life if you just size it up emotionally I just don't like this you know I remember one extraordinarily transformative experience in my life and it was my practice marriage I was married for 5 years in the 19 70s and the day I got divorced I realized I felt about her exactly the same way as the first day that I met her I didn't like her and then I talked myself out of it right I said next time stick with your first guess and look she's a great person yeah she's a great person she's highly thought of she's very admirable she's a good person I just didn't like her and I had that down the first time I met her and I had that down the day I divorced her but in between I had this confusion of my own thinking so that experience really solidified okay going with your first assessment and there's so much evidence Dan about our first impressions and how much our nervous systems take in subconsciously not consciously and we override our instincts there's tons of scientific studies about this I think our emotions are actually incredibly highly packed exper exp erience of experience after experience and this worked and that didn't work and this experience and when you feel something all that wisdom is suddenly available except you don't see it as wisdom you say yeah but what's the thinking here I said you don't pick one side out of thinking you pick one side out of feeling and I think that's a very critical point and I know from all of my work with kby and the whole kby creative process starts with how you feel about something you know your striving instincts don't kick in unless you care if you don't care you're not applying any other you're not applying your reason you're not applying your instincts you're not taking purposeful action all of that so 100% human beings are definitely motivated that way but we tend to override it with intellect which you did in your practice marriage situation you talk yourself into something and I think really going with this and then what you're saying is just pick a side and go with it see what happens to your thinking you're actually giving voice to that emotion in a way that you can then look at and examine which is very yeah and if I'm wrong I'll reverse myself but I'll know why I'm reversing myself right and it's not out of being acceptable or being agreeable it's just bad guess Bad Bet cut your losses yep learn and move on I tell you people say you're American and you seem to be totally American you all your views why do you live in Canada and I said because it gives me a binary between two places and it's built right into the opening statements that founded the two countries the first one in the United States is that this is for the purpose of individual life liberty and the pursuit of happiness okay that's the US okay Canada is this country is founded for the purpose of peace order and good government okay it's hard to contain those two thoughts in the same brain but there's a tension between the two places between the choice of the two I vote for I'm an American but it allows me to really understand Canada in the way that's deeper than most Canadians understand their own country and allows me to understand Americans in a way that most Americans understand their country CU I have this tension and they said but would you ever move to the United States to live and I said well we have a home for business purposes you know in the United States but no I'll always live here and they said why and I said because I like making my money where there's life liberty in the pursuit of happiness and I like living and spending my money where there's peace order and good government well Canada is like America biggest gated community you know you have to check in the gate you you say well do you know somebody there and you give them a name okay how long you going to stay yeah uh do you have guns yes you can't bring the guns into the country you know and this is got value but if I was forced to choose you had to live in one place I'd go back to the United States yeah that's so fun that's true who would you fight for and I said well there's only one that really requires you to fight for True Story awesome Dan thank you for breaking down this binary thinking I know for me personally the tools that you create out of it which will be our next podcast is something that's really helped me clarify my own thinking but it's very fun to hear it from you and how you look at things in your own life experience so thank you for sharing that I'll give you one more reason for this is that my favorite musical composer of all time is Johan Sebastian B you know and he lived from the 1600s to the 1700s so right at the turn of that century and he has a musical form which is called contrapuntal right and he creates one Melody line yes and then he creates another Melody line that's different and what emerges in the middle is an incredible Melody line from the Contra puntel so it's binary he creates a binary and he just writes the most gor gorgeous music I mean hands down Bach gets played more in the world than any other composer in the history of the world and that includes Taylor Swift you know there's more Bach in the world than there is Taylor tlor Swift or any of the not so great but what he does is he's mastered this binary tension that the actual Melody line that really carries the whole thing is created by these two counter melody lines and it creates great art it creates great thing and my feeling is all greatness in the world is created by the tension that's created by binaries I completely agree and and my example would be Rodan if you study Rodan there's always strength the burgers of C for example you know they're these strong men in Chains you know with their heads down but the strength and the other part is very evident and we find these are Stone they were created you know in the 1800s this is Stone and it just has this tremendous tension to it I've been to the museum in Paris and the story has enormous tension in it you know yeah and I think human beings find that fascinating it's reflective our own internal tension sometimes and Roda had a protege SL Muse woman who created stunningly beautiful sculptures zero creative tension I breathed through that room so fast because there was nothing of Interest it was pretty to look at but what compelled me was to go back to Roda right like the thinker or any of the other ones so I think that creative tension or the binary nature of things is something that is very resonant for us and it is to your point what creates greatness is when you recognize that and acknowledge it and explore it I'll give it a popular example of John Lennon and Paul McCartney very radical different approach to music the two of them and as long as they were working together they created the greatest popular music probably of the 20th century the moment they went off on their own they didn't have that tension no and there was nothing that John Lenin did afterwards not like his Beetle stuff same thing with Paul McCartney I've seen video concerts of Paul McCartney and he has his stuff and you know it's cute I would say he writes very cute poppy yeah yeah it's kind of really neat and then they said yesterday play yesterday and yesterday all of a sudden that tension you know I mean he says the tensions there and he never had the tension once they separated MH that's a really great Point well Dan I think we've given people lots to think about which we always like to do in these conversations so thank you I think this is an what's the word It's Not Unusual approach but a very essential approach that I think everyone can take value from so thank you great thank you