hello serial listeners Sarah Koenig here with a quick message before we start the episode which is that in case you haven't heard we have a new show it's called estão and it's a 7 part podcast hosted by This American Life producer Brian Reed I am so excited about it it is weird it is beautiful it has a plot that goes in fascinating directions I did not see coming all seven chapters of the S town podcast are available now at S town podcast org or wherever you get your podcasts this is a global killing prepaid call from AG Knox is an inmate at the Maryland Correctional Facility from this American life and wbec Chicago exterior one story told week by week I'm Sarah Koenig for the last year I've spent every working day trying to figure out where a high school kid was for an hour after school one day in 1999 or if you want to get technical about it and apparently I do where a high school kid was for 21 minutes after school one day in 1999 this search sometimes feels undignified on my part I've had to ask for about teenagers sex lives where how often with whom about notes they passed in class about their drug habits their relationships with their parents and I'm not a detective or a private investigator not even a crime reporter but yes every day this year I've tried to figure out the alibi of a 17 year old boy before I get into why I've been doing this I just want to point out something I've never really thought about before I started working on this story and that is it's really hard to account for your time in a detailed way I mean how did you get to work last Wednesday for instance Drive walk bike was it raining are you sure did you go to any stores that day if so what did you buy who did you talk to the entire day name every person you talk to it's hard now imagine you have to account for a day that happened six weeks back because that's a situation in the story I'm working on which a bunch of teenagers had to recall it as six weeks earlier and it was 1999 so they had to do it without the benefit of to Facebook or Instagram just for a lark I asked some teenagers to try it do you remember what you did on that Friday I'm not not oh I can't remember anything wait nothing no I came here anything that fall back I'm pretty I'm pretty I'm pretty sure I was in school I think no that's Tyler he's 18 I asked my nephew Sam he's 18 to not clue up in school probably I would be in school actually I think I worked that day oh yeah why works that day and I went to school is that it actually on second thought only I went to school that day you don't anyone yeah no I didn't IRA definitely didn't hear Sam's friend Elliot he seemed to have better recall no actually I moved on to the movies at night later do you remember what now thinking I'm sorry yeah I think I saw 22 Jump Street okay and what did you go with friends yeah I went with Sam and kid Shawn Carter a bunch of people when you Sam my my nephew Sam yeah yeah oh okay so Sam says he was at work oh then it wasn't that nice then one kid did actually remember pretty well because it was the last day of state testing at his school and he'd saved up to go to a night club that's the main thing I learned from this exercise which was no big shocker I guess is that if some significant event happened that day you remember that plus you remember the entire day much better if nothing significant happened then the answers get very general I most likely did this or I most likely did that these are words I've heard a lot lately here's the case I've been working on almost 15 years ago on January 13th 1999 a girl named Haman Lee disappeared she was a senior at Woodland High School in Baltimore County Maryland she was Korean she was smart and beautiful and cheerful and great athlete she played field hockey and lacrosse and she was responsible right after school she was supposed to pick up her little cousin from kindergarten and drop her home but she didn't show that's when Hayley's family knew something was up when the cousins school called about a month later on February nights haze body was found in a big park in Baltimore really a rambling forest a maintenance guy who said he'd stopped to take a leak on his way to work discovered her there he'd noticed a bit of her black hair poking out of shallow grave the cause of death was manual strangulation meaning someone did it with their hands a couple weeks after that so six weeks after she first went missing haze ex-boyfriend a guy named Adnan Syed was arrested for her murder he's been in prison ever since I first heard about this story more than a year ago when I got an email from a woman named Rabia Chaudhary Rabia knows I've done pretty well her younger brother Saad is at nonce best friend and they believe he's innocent Robi was writing to me because way back when I used to be a reporter for the Baltimore Sun and she'd come across some stories I've written about a well-known defense attorney in Baltimore who'd been disbarred for mishandling client money that attorney was the same person who defended an on her last major trial in fact Rabia told me she thought the attorney botched the case not just botched it actually but threw the case on purpose so she could get more money for the appeal the lawyer had died a few years later she'd been sick Rabia asked if I would please just take a look at a Don's case I don't get emails like this every day so I thought sure why not I read a few newspaper clips about the case looked up a few trial records and on paper the case was like a Shakespearean mashup young lovers from different worlds boarding their family's secret assignation 'he's jealousy suspicion and honor besmirched the villain not a more exactly but a muslim all the same and a final act of murderous revenge in the main stage a regular old high school across the street from a 7-eleven hi ru hi am i saying your name correctly Robin okay I went to go see Rabia she was surrounded by paper files loose stacks binders and crappy looking boxes all court documents and attorneys files from a Don's case some of the papers were warped and discolored why do they look wet they look like wet these have been yeah these have been damaged because you explain that is because the boxes had been in her car on and off for 15 years Robbie is a lawyer herself she mostly does immigration stuff her office takes up the corner of a much larger open space that I think is a Pakistani travel agency though it's hard to tell it's in this little strip mall across the parking lot there's a new Pakistani restaurant an african evangelical church and any in clothing shop a convenience store on the sidewalk outside I found a teeny-weeny bag of marijuana Baltimore County's like this at least on the west side through a lot of middle-class and working-class people go many immigrants included to get their kids out of the bad ass city the baddest city is close by Robbi is 40 she's short and she's got a beautiful round face frame by her job she's adorable looking but you definitely shouldn't mess with her she's very smart and very tough and she could crush you her brother Saad was at Robbie's office - the first time I went he's 33 mortgage broker more laid back than Rabia they told me about Adnan Syed their friend not just a good kid but an especially good kid smart kind goofy handsome it was so that when he's arrested for murder so many people who knew him were stunned he was like the community's golden child really talk more about that he was an honor roll student volunteer EMT he was like on the football team he was a star star runner on the track team he was the homecoming king he led prayers at the mosque so he was yeah everybody knew and on to be you know somebody who's going to do something really big I later fact-checked all these accolades of course and learned that Rabia was mostly right though she sometimes gets a little loosey-goosey with the details a nun was an EMT but he didn't volunteer he was paid for it he was on the track team but he wasn't a star he did play football and he did lead prayers on occasion he wasn't homecoming king but he was prince of his junior prom and this at a high school that was majority black we picked the pakistani muslim kid so you get the picture he was incredibly likeable and well-liked kid this conversation with Rabia and saad this is what launched me on this year-long obsession is maybe too strong a word let's say fascination with this case by the end of this hour you're going to hear different people tell different versions of what happened the day Haley was killed let's start with the most important version of the story the one Rabia told me first and that's the one that was presented at trial the state's case against Adnan went like this he and hae had been going out since junior prom but a nun wasn't supposed to be dating at all the nan was born in the US but his parents are from Pakistan and they're conservative Muslims no drinking smoking no girls all that son Robbie his parents are the same way their families or friends but even though it non and side and their buddies for Muslims they were also shall we say healthy American teenagers who are going to do what teenagers do so long as they didn't get caught so it not had to keep his relationship with his secret the state used this against him in two ways first they argued he'd put everything on the line his family his relationships with the mosque to run around with this girl so that when she broke up with him eight months later he was left with nothing and he was outraged he couldn't take it and he killed her and the second way they used it as they said look at what a liar he is how duplicitous he plays the good Muslim son at home and at the mosque but look what he was up to Saud remembers the prosecutors closing argument at trial his family didn't know that he actually drank he smoked he was having sex this was proof of bad character someone who could be a murderer but Todd says if it nons guilty of anything it's of being a normal kid with immigrant parents so like the prosecution had painted an on as a totally like a bipolar or like a maniacal dual personality we all grew up with that Jill personality I mean I'm the same way I was like they could paint the same thing because I was actually homecoming king which I don't know for my sister even knows she did not know so I mean I was dating a girl that was and why is homecoming king bad is that such a good thing we don't go to homecoming we don't have it's a damn it's a dinner it's a mixed gender so so I was in the same boat my parents my sister they didn't know about this at all I mean it's in right now ten years more than years later she's finding out you know I know I mean uh you know I'll admit you know on one side like my family thinks I'm a virgin but I love him you know but it's denied him I Tim I look at to see that like that right there I mean it's kind of making her feel uncomfortable you know she's like whoa so just on motive alone son and Rabia found the whole thing ridiculous as for physical evidence there was none nothing apart from some fingerprints in his car which had none had been in many times there was nothing linking him to the crime no DNA no fibers no hairs no matching soil from the bottom of his boots instead with a hat on was one guy's story a guy named Jay he's the third person you need to remember in this crime story besides Hannah Don Jay was a friend of Adnan they've been in school together since middle school they weren't super close but they had mutual friends Jay sold weed and he had Anan smoke together the story Jay told police had problems because he kept changing from telling to telling but they were able to bolster the main plot points using cell records from it nons phone by the time I left Robby's office up first day I understood only one thing clearly though maybe not the thing Robby inside wanted me to understand but what I took away from the visit was somebody is lying here maybe had man really is innocent but what if he isn't what if he did do it and he's got all these good people thinking he didn't so either it's Jay or it's Adnan but someone is lying and I really wanted to figure out who [Music] in the early morning of February 28th 1999 anon was arrested by Baltimore City detectives he was asleep in his bed when they showed up at his house they took him straight from his untidy bedroom to an interrogation room at homicide downtown what a nun didn't know is that just hours before they picked him up the cops had interviewed his friend Jay this is a taped interview of Jay blackmail 19 years of age were advances of homicide specifically the Carlos conference room the police recorded two taped interviews with Jay and I'm going to play you the second one from a couple of weeks later only because the sound quality is much better just a warning that the tape is a little upsetting to hear in parts why don't you go ahead and tell us what you know about the death of Haley um ed left out went shopping with a friend of mine a next friend of mine hang on we had had a conversation um during the conversation stated that he's going to kill that [ __ ] referring to Haley I didn't took it with context and stand out my hit anything uh Jay says he didn't take it too seriously the cops have him start again from the top on the morning of the 13th Jay says Adnan had left school and driven to Jay's house Jay graduated from school the year before and was working but not on that day January 13th happens to be the birthday of Jays girlfriend Stephanie and Jay who didn't have his own car needed to go buy something for her so Adnan comes over according to Jay they go shopping at the mall what if she do that um he left them all I took him to school I dropped him off in the back of the school wasn't even up class he left his cell phone in the car with me told me he'd call me um I went back to my friend Jenna's house away from the call okay now at this point you know why is he's leaving the car with you yes and why is that because he said he's going to kill hitting and the reason you have the car and the cellphone was why pick him up from wherever he was going to do it and you had talked about this while you were shopping that debt the details of the car and all the events how they were going to plan out he bad day he told me yes he told me y'all I'm gonna leave you with my cell phone and my car I need you to come get me yes after after he's killed hitting yes later that afternoon the conk on house you received a phone call from that yes on his cell phone yeah which is in your possession yes and the conversation was what um that [ __ ] did come and get me I'm at Best Buy Jay drives to Best Buy he's a nun in the parking lot I noticed hey wasn't with him on my part next to him he asked me to get out the car I get out of the car he asked me am I ready for this um and I say ready for what in the case of Keaney opens the trunk and all I can see is uh like he's lips all blue and she's like wrestled up in the back of the trunk and she's dead they leave the parking lot an ons driving his car with her body in the trunk Jay is driving an ons car they ditch Hayes car at the i-70 parking ride and then to her Jay tell it they just kind of tool around Baltimore County together for a while as if nothing had happened buy some weed cruise around make some calls after a while Jay drives Adnan back to Woodlawn high school why did she take him back to school he told me that I had to take him back to school because he needed to be seen me so he was he going to a certain event practice track right track practice yeah so he wanted an alibi yes he wanted to be seen by the people at track yeah many guys had discussed that you just told me that he need to be seen yes he told me that he needed to be seen at track practice you took them back yes are you having any conversation with that not on to the fifth yes don't tell anyone he said that he couldn't believe he killed somebody with his bare hands and all other most [ __ ] recurring that like hood and throws and stuff think they're hardcore but he just killed a person with his bare hands so at this point he's bragging about hmm basically he was proud of it yes after track practice Jay picks anon up again they drive around some more by this time his family was worried and they'd called the police who in turn called a couple of his friends including it non call comes in on his cell cops ask if he's seen hey or knows where she is Jay says after the call they drive to Jay's to get some shovels go retrieve Hayes car from the parking ride the drive around some more and finally end up at leakin Park where Adnan proceeds to bury hey it's evening by now maybe 7 or 8 p.m. and uh he asked me if I was going to help told [ __ ] no and it starts just shoveling dirt on top of him that's how really there let me stop that yes you helped him dig the hole yes how long did it take you both I dig the hole 2025 minutes how deep did you make the hole oh maybe six inches at the moves it wasn't very deep at all couldn't eat most of the day uh it was quite a bit evil work I wouldn't say that but yeah okay so those are the key points anon told Jay an advanced who's going to do it he did it they buried her Jay's story wasn't just a foundation of the state's case against the nan it was the state's case against Adnan and the picture Jay drew it's cold he's not describing a crime of passion here this is something much darker to methodically map out the death of your friend to strangle her with your own hands close up like that that would mean a nun wasn't just a killer but a master liar a manipulator a psychopath probably [Music] Anand's in a maximum-security prison in Western Maryland he calls me at my request about twice a week he talked to me from a bank of eight payphones in the rec hall a pretty large room where other guys are sitting at tables with metal seats attached to them playing chess or cards or using a microwave or watching TV you can get a little loud sometimes once I asked if all eight phones were always occupied and he said usually not because guys have been in for a long time often they have no one to call when I first met Adnan in person I was struck by two things he was way bigger than I expected barrel-chested and tall and the photos I'd seen he was still a lanky teenager with struggling facial hair and sagging jeans but now he was 32 he'd spent nearly half his life in prison becoming larger and properly bearded and the second thing which you can't miss about Adnan is that he has giant brown eyes like a dairy cow that's what prompts my most idiotic lines of inquiry could someone who looks like that really strangle his girlfriend idiotic I know when he first heard Jays story of the crime an on didn't say well it didn't happen like that or I didn't mean for it to happen like that he said it didn't happen none of this is true at all he says he had nothing to do with Hayes murder and he doesn't know who did hey was an ons first serious relationship with a girl he says he loved her in the way of high school love but then also in the way of high school got over her so that when they broke up for good some time before Christmas break of senior year he says he was sad for sure but not obsessed or anything I just sometimes wish like they could like look into my brain and see how I really felt about it and no matter what else someone would say they would say man this guy had no had no ill-will towards or whatever the motivation is to kill someone I had absolutely it didn't exist in me you know what I mean no one can ever say why you could say why oh man is mad if any ever but no one could ever come up with any type of proof or anecdote for anything to ever say worse than I was ever mad at her that I was ever angry with her that I ever threatened her you know that's the only thing I could really hold on to it is like my only firm handhold of this whole thing is that no one's ever been able to prove it no one ever been able to provide any shred of evidence then it anything but friendship towards and like love and respect for her that's the end of the day man the only thing I can ever say man I had no reason to kill us he's adamant about this you can hear it right and he's staunch the problem is when you ask it not to go back and tell his version of what happened that day to refute Jays story everything becomes a lot Machir yes he hung out with Jay on the 13th both during and after school but he doesn't remember exactly where they went or what they did or what time it was here's what he's got January 13th unfolded like any other day a normal mostly uneventful day he says there are a couple of things that do stand out though that day was Stephanie's birthday Stephanie it was one of an ons best friend and also Jay's girlfriend anon had gotten Stephanie a birthday present stuffed reindeer which he'd given to her in second period miss Efron's English class and one so it occurred to me that day that I was going to ask her boyfriend Jim did he get her just so sometimes around the day before noon wait and then just hold up for a second why sure why did you care whether Jay got Stephanie a present like what's it to you well stephanie was a very close friend of mine as I mentioned and it was just uh I just kind of wanted to make sure that she also got to get from him you know she had mentioned to me that while she was looking forward to getting a gift from him she mentioned she was really happy to get the gift that I gave her so it just as I would with any friend I just kind of a we know went to check on it I kinda had a feeling that maybe he didn't get her a gift and I had free periods during school so it wasn't like you know it was not abnormal for me to leave school to go do something and then come back so I went to his house and I asked him you know did you happen to get a present for Stephanie she said no so I said if you want to you can you can drop me back off to school you can borrow my car and go to the mall get her a gift or whatever and just come pick me up after track practice that day so then what happened well then uh when school was over I would have went to the library I know that I usually check well I didn't usually check but if I was going to check my email it would be a lot using the library computer you know sometimes I would go there because track practice didn't start until around maybe three o'clock or 3:30 ish so it didn't start right after school so there was a period of time of almost like an hour hour to change you know that was kind of free time this hour and change after school this is the crucial window this is the time when the state says hey was killed school got out at 2:15 people remember seeing her after her last class coming to her car according to Jay's story and the cellphone records she was dead by 2:30 6 p.m. so sometime in those 21 minutes between 2:15 and 2:30 6:00 she was strangled so that's obviously the same window an on needed to account for - quoted on my case lived and died in those 21 minutes so where does it not say he was well maybe the library but nobody testified to that at trial then to track practice he does remember being at track one day when it was snowing which might have been that day the coach testified that a nun probably was there but he can't be a hundred percent sure because as a rule he didn't take attendance after school is when his memories become nonspecific usually we did this or we probably would have done that probably trackback expanded like I say 4:30 J did come to pick up a nun after track that part of Nan seems to more or less remember it was Ramadan so a nun would have been fasting all day I'm hungry it probably would have been close to time for me to break fast he would have came to pick me up and we were to Wed focus on me and it was slopes of weed after right and then I would have had that gone uh been home by like around 7 8 o'clock right or usually like the last 10 nights of ramadan my father would spend a night at the mosque so a lot of times I would take her food other the mother would make some form and I would take it like she before 8 o'clock right so that's the last evening prayer did you ever leave the campus before the end of track practice did you ever oh okay no you're sure I want to say that I'm 99% sure okay the reason why I can't say 100 is because I mean I do kind of mist and that it comes across I don't know if it does our business but it seems like I remember things that are beneficial to me with things that aren't beneficial I can't remember it's just that I don't really know what to say you know beyond the fact that a lot of the day and I do remember it just bits and pieces it comes from what other people have said you know that they remember right and kind of our jobs mm yeah I really notice it and I completely understand how that comes off yeah I mean the only thing I could say is man it was just a normal day to me it was absolutely nothing abnormal about their day anon knows better than anyone how unhelpful this all is how problematic because it plays both ways if he's innocent right it's any other day of course he doesn't remember but you can also read it as how convenient he doesn't remember the day so no one can fact check him or poke holes in his story because he has no story I definitely understand and someone can look at this to say oh man you know he must be lying it's so coincidental that he doesn't remember what he did its particular time I mean I completely understand that and I get that that's you know like I said bestest you know the biggest the hardest thing I've dealt with for you times 15 years is that I don't there's nothing tangible I can do to remember that day is the truth if there's nothing I can do you know to make me remember you know I poured through the transcripts I've looked through the telephone records um you know I mean this is what what else can I do there's nothing I can do so it's just you know perhaps I'll never be able to explain it and it is what it is if someone believes me or not you know I have no control over [Music] anons trial was a long ordeal Jai was on the stand for something like five days a cellphone expert testified for two days a lifetime when you're discussing cell tower technology there were absences and some bad weather close the courts so it was six weeks before both sides rested but the jury they moved like lightning after just a few hours including a lunch break they convicted a nun a first-degree murder Rabia Chaudhary was there in the courtroom when it happened she says his mother was crying she was crying Rabia hadn't sat through the whole trial so the first time she fully understood that the case came down to those 21 minutes was during closing arguments when the prosecutor brought out a dummy's head and strangled it in front of the jury that evening after the verdict Robbie went to see a man in lockup and so I went to go see him so this is the same day he's been convicted and this is the first time I actually had a conversation with him about you know what's going on and I was like you know I've done the whole thing's turning on these 2025 minutes like you know where were you and he's like she disappeared in January you know in March you're asking me like where were you after school for 20 minutes on a specific day like no all the days are the same to me you know but then he mentions that there was this one girl an alibi girl he's like the only thing I could offer is he's like I remember he's like there's a girl I go to school with who her name is Asia mcclain he's like right after I got arrested she wrote me a couple of letters and she said she also went to see my family and she said she specifically remembers me being at the library at the public library right after school the Woodman Public Library is just across the parking lot from Woodland High School it's not technically part of the campus but it might as well be he said I gave those letters to Christina Gutierrez to my attorney he's like but you know apparently it didn't really check out so he's like I don't know so they're not helpful to us so this is the first time I heard of this girl aja McLean I had never heard of her before nobody had mentioned her before were you like floored like what but I mean what like I wasn't floored at the time because I thought I thought if he if this girl wrote and the attorney what criminal defense attorney is not going to check out a potential alibi I asked him I said you have a copy of this letter she said yeah I have a copy I said send me a copy a nonsense a letter Sarabia and here's what she reads the first letter the first of two is dated March 1st 1999 that is one day after adnan was arrested at the top of the letter she notes I just came from your house an hour ago dear Adnan I hope I spelled it right I'm not sure if you remember talking to me in the library on January 13th but I remembered chatting with you she says quote we aren't really close friends but I want you to look into my eyes and tell me of your innocence if I ever find otherwise I will hunt you down and whip your ass okay friend at the bottom she added a little note my boyfriend and his best friend remember seeing you there - that's letter number one then the next day on March 2nd she writes it not another letter this one's typed it's chattier she talks about the gossip at school the bits and pieces of evidence about the crime that are circulating the students are saying what the teachers are saying about her visit to his house quote your brothers are nice I don't think I Met Your Mother I think I Met Your dad does he have a big gray beard they gave me in Justin soda and cake there's a whole bunch of people at your house and you know they were I also didn't know that Muslims take their shoes off in the house thank God they didn't make me take mine off my stinky feet probably would have knocked everyone out cold why haven't you told anyone about talking to me in the library she asks him did you think it was unimportant you didn't think that I would remember or did you just totally forget yourself anon says now that he does in fact remember seeing Asia in the library the thing he remembers about it is so high school Asia used to go out with a nan friend Justin and Justin had confided that Asia was a proper young lady in other words Justin wasn't getting any so would nan remembers thinking he would now get to tease Justin about seeing Asia with her new boyfriend maybe the new guy was getting lucky anyway Rabia calls Asia up it's been a year since she wrote the letters but she agrees to me and she told me that day after school I went to the live Public Library and Adnan was sitting at a computer checking email or something and I sat down next to him we started chatting and I thought was very popular boy in school is handsome and you know popular with the ladies so she was speaking to him and her boyfriend shows up a little bit later with a friend and she said her boyfriend was really angry at her because he's like why are you talking to him you know high school kids you know why are you talking to him is he hitting on you and she remember very specifically that that day she went home with her when she went to her boyfriend's house with him and they got snowed in and that's known really heavily that night and she remembered that for the following two days school was closed so she had very specific details about why she remembered that day aysia wrote out an affidavit on the spot in it she says she and anon spoke for about 15 to 20 minutes while she was waiting for her boyfriend to give her a ride quote we left around 240 unquote remember he is supposed to be dead by two thirty six and then the kicker no attorney has ever contacted me about January 13th 1999 and the above information so benefit of the doubt for a second maybe had not never actually showed the letters to Christina Gutierrez his attorney sure he said he did but who knows well I know deep inside Gutierrez has notes on the case I have boxes and boxes of such stuff there's this in her handwriting Asia Plus boyfriend saw him in library 2:15 to 3:15 then there's another note dated July 13th it's more than four months after an ons arrest this is written by one of GU chairs as law clerks who visited a nun in jail quote Asia mcclain saw him in the library at three Asian boyfriend saw him to library may have cameras why oh why was this person never heard from a trial a solid non crazy detail-oriented alibi witness in a case that's so sorely needed alibi witnesses I can't ask Christina Gutierrez because she died in 2004 so I put that question to a few defense attorneys and they said well alibi witnesses can be tricky especially if it's just one person because then it becomes one person's word over another the single witness like that can backfire under cross-examination or they might take the jury's focus away from the weaknesses in the state's case so there are conceivable strategic reasons why Christina Gutierrez might not have wanted to put Asia mcclain on the stand but what is inconceivable they all said it's not ever tact Asia mcclain to never make the call never check it out never find out if her story helps or hurts your case that makes no sense whatsoever that is not a strategy that is a [ __ ] when I first heard about the long-lost Asia letters and the lawyers mistake I thought well their fight is over right they've got an alibi witness who has never heard from such a slam-dunk they're done Ananse family hired a new attorney who filed a petition in court based on the Asia affidavit his argument was that anons trial could have turned out differently if Gutierrez had checked out Asia's story and so Adnan should get some form of what's called post-conviction relief the new lawyer figures he'll get Asia to come to the hearing she'll vouch for her story by this time Asia had finished school and moved away he finds an address on the West Coast tries calling sending messages nothing finally he writes a letter to her and give it to a private investigator who goes out to Asia's house and hopes of delivering it Asia's fiancee comes to the door opens it partway tells the investigator that she cannot speak to Asia but that from what he knows about nons case but not as guilty and deserve the punishment he got later the investigator gets a call from the fiance we don't have to talk to you leave us alone so an odds lawyer calls off the search for Asia figuring once a witness turns on you like that it's too risky to keep pushing and then at an on hearing on the new petition it comes out that Asia had done the very thing they dreaded Asia had called one of the prosecutors in an ons case a guy named Kevin uric and undermined her own statement this is from a recording of the hearing mr. Urich is testifying on the witness stand a young lady named Asia called me she was concerned because she was being asked questions about an affidavit she'd written back at the time of the trial she told me that she don't even read it because she was getting pressure from the family and she basically wrote it to please them and get them off her back it was it's I don't know what happened to her and why she would do this here's Rabia again she says it's not true that Asia was bullied into writing that statement 15 years ago she can't fathom why Asia would discredit her own statement like that I don't know why they were the affidavit was written solitarily I mean I'm an attorney I'm a licensed attorney I work on Homeland Security it's like I have no reason to make something like this up you know I didn't even know she existed until until after the convictions so we didn't think happened why would they have this sort of violent reaction to helping out an on now I don't know it was just really odd so who knows what would have happened if Asia had shown up maybe it wouldn't have made a difference after all they had the original letters and the affidavit that's all that should have mattered but it didn't look good it'd be natural for the judge to wonder why can't the defense produces Asia person why is she making this call to a prosecutor I mean anyone would wonder I wondered I wondered if maybe she was pressured into writing that affidavit and I wondered if she was hiding something like maybe she'd lied in those 1999 letters maybe she didn't really see Adnan at the library that day and I just wanted to insert herself into something exciting and maybe now that she was grown up she wanted nothing to do with any of it so 3-4 months after I'd first sat down with Rabia I'd become fixated on finding Asia I'm like a bloodhound on this thing because the whole case seemed to me to be teetering on her memories of that afternoon I have to know if Adnan really was in the library at 2:36 p.m. because if he was well library equals innocent it's so maddening Lee simple and maybe I can crack it if I can just talk to Asia I write her a long gentle pleading letter and send it off to an address I find online I'm calling people who know her who I think might know her I'm checking the same loop of Facebook my life LinkedIn sites over and over trawling for clues about where she might be or how she might saying if you're wondering why I went so nuts on this story versus some other murder case the best I can explain is this is the one that came to me it wasn't halfway across the world or even next door it came right to my lap and if I could help get to the bottom of it shouldn't I try I start running down all the other information in ages 1999 letters she mentioned there were security cameras inside the library so my producer and I went to see the very nice manager there Michelle Hamill was there a security system back in 99 that could have been checked at the time probably yes I'm going to say yes and what system was it I have no idea it was a old system you think probably video it was video and that was part of setup every morning you put a videotape in so that's how are you guys recycling the videotapes yes I think it ran for you know week so you had a Monday tape a Tuesday for Wednesday tape and so forth so so even if on the very day that Asia had written her first letter a nuns lawyer had run out to find a security tape it probably would have been non-existent by then but what about the computer at Nam was supposedly using to check his email to use a computer did people have to sign in like write their name down they did what was the system then a piece of paper and pencil of those by any chance weren't logged meticulously and kept for 15 years were they no bummer all right we got nothing then there was a mystery of asia's boyfriend Derek and his friend Jerrod all winter and spring every time I went to Baltimore I went to Derek's mom's house looking for him and two drawers window tinting business and then finally alright see you are Jerrod Johnson yes I am you don't know how excited we are to be talking to you I've been looking for you for like four months you didn't do anything but we were hoping maybe you remembered this moment on January 13th 1999 do you have have any memory by any miracle that you went to Woodlawn library branch near Woodlawn high school to pick up Asia mcclain with your friend Derek I have no idea Asia mcclain is that a person or book that's a person no no recollection of it scratch Jerrod Derek was my last hope eventually I caught him at home considering I woke him up he was exceedingly courteous he showed me a photo of Asian him all dressed up they dated most of senior year what's up here's all senior prom yeah you guys both look really beautiful mm-hmm yeah that's my stuff Asia yeah but Derek couldn't remember that day either shocking I know he used to pick Asia up from school almost every day back then either from the library or from the front of the school and he says he spoke to a lot of her friends just to be polite and it's it's very possible that we could have spoken to the gentleman and her on that day but it's very hard to remember you know 15 years later but it sounds you know very uh it sounds like this definitely could have happened yeah I don't think it is or ages not the type of person that would like just the but I'm wondering if she's definitely not that type of person you know to get involved with a lie you know she's not that type of person so she uh it seemed pretty credible to me [Music] one day I got a call on my cell phone from a blocked number you guessed it Asia I wish I could say that my charming persuasive letter is what prompted Asia to call but the truth is she never got my letter I had the wrong address but she was calling because I'd followed up weeks later with a one-line email and she was responding to that a little confused and crazy um I mean I have a minister you are a chef at in it I recorded our conversation on the cell which is why the sound quality is so bad sorry about that Asia is now a 33 year old stay-at-home mother and she has not spent the last 15 years worrying about a nun and whether he's guilty I trust corpus instigated diligence and I because I mean I was never I was never questioned I was never informed of anything pertaining to the case I don't know why he was convicted you said she was spooked when the private investigator came to her house I don't know if that's why she didn't testify at the hearing or why she made the call to the prosecutor but she told me that when she got the knock at the door quote that was not cool because to her if I'd none did do it quote the last thing you want is a murderer being pissed off at you knowing where you live but she had a remarkably clear memory of what happened on January 13th 1999 she had an internship at the time and so she got out of school much earlier than everyone else Derek was supposed to come get her at the library along with garage but they were very late she remembers seeing Adnan come in after Woodlawn let out for the day and on TV and he sat at the table and like we want like really close friends or anything like that but you know we you know we knew each other and you know we just think catid or whatever and I can't remember I think I must after how he was doing or whatever and he had fun you know he told me that nai broke up and and I was like oh that's a bummer and and I was like what happened and he was like all go she seeing this other guy some white dude and you know but he was freak show about it he just it was just like you know what is you know she doesn't want to be with me and that's why I you know I just wish the best for her and that kind of attitude I'm not sure why Asia's memory of this interaction is so clear all these years later my best guess is that because she wrote it down at the time in those letters and then the affidavit that the details somehow stuck do you remember what time you were talking this would have happened in the library do you remember what time that conversation would have happened I don't because I know school let out around 2:15 those five around 2:30 because you had said you got out of school earlier than other people so were you there were you at the library before 2:15 oh yeah I haven't had to walk there for few hours oh wow yeah I was pretty pissed when Darren showed up and and you know and he asked me who adnan was and you know yeah jealous teenager polite language he's like you know that mm-hmm and I said don't even start with me because you you know you're a few hours late so more elevated you I remember that day because that was the day that it snowed were there snow days after that do you remember I want to say there was because that was I think that was like the first snow of the year mm-hmm I wouldn't have even remembered if it hadn't been for the snow and the whole you know I just remember being so pissed about there being late and then getting snowed in and how the first know and I ear the snow is important hey disappeared on a Wednesday that night there was a huge ice storm which is unusual in Maryland it ended up being a state emergency and school was closed for the rest of the leaders Asian started asking me questions about the case wasn't there DNA evidence and what exactly was J's part in the whole thing she wasn't sure a nun was guilty she said things I've now heard from so many people since he seemed like he cared about hey he didn't seem angry or upset I thought there was more proof even that day it did you know I didn't want the way to hear like oh I just started so cool you know what I mean yeah if you want to make this innocent officers composure at that moment I would say he's innocent but I mean I'm 32 years old now and I know that you know those people out there temple of famous acts that can keep us calm demeanor you know yep and I know some there are people who sort out all moment's notice and do something and you know they regret for the rest of their lives so I think you know what don't worry yeah even now it's a knife if there was some technicality something that would prove his innocence great you know one less evil person I've met in my life you know but but I think I think Asia like you might be that technicality too soon I mean like you're if you're saying you saw him on this day at that time that means the state's timeline for their this their whole theory of the case doesn't make any sense a possibility because they're saying he was in the car with her at the very time that you're saying no I saw him at the library and we were talking do you know what I mean like that's exactly the window where they're saying she was murdered yes in case you couldn't hear that it was a sigh and I completely understand that sigh how I feel a lot of the time because I talked to a nun regularly and he just doesn't seem like a murderer [Music] few minutes after I hung up with Asia Adnan called on schedule a third facial um I'm good I'm good um I so I was just talking to Asia mcclain okay yes you don't sound very excited uh uh oh I really know this was not the reaction I expected I felt like I just interviewed an ivory-billed woodpecker but when I told it non what Asia remembered instead of being excited Anan said it was heartbreaking I mean on a personal level I'm happy because in a sense if you know that I'm not making this up and it leaves nothing else we kind of like at least someone other than Rob you know that you know just did take place anything that you kind of support what I'm saying to be the truth and I didn't do this to great but from a legal perspective it's like I wish you would've came to this realization maybe like a year and a half ago gonna mean because it's kind of like you know that is between since too late I'm sorry I mean I definitely appreciate it and definitely relations you always feel like a puncture to balloon no no I mean I I see I totally I see I see what you're saying I hadn't thought about it in that way when I told Robbie I'd talked to Asia she immediately burst into tears because they were all correct and was too late the judge ruled on Edmunds petition a few weeks before I spoke to Asia denied the judge wrote in his opinion that Christina gojira's decision not to use Asia mcclain as an alibi witness was strategic after all Asia's original letters didn't specify an exact time and Gutierrez could have reasonably concluded that Asia was offering to lie in order to help a nun and finally he wrote Asia's letter contradicted anons own alibi Asia says she saw him at the public library but had nan said he was on the school campus the whole afternoon maybe the judge didn't understand that woodland library is basically part of the campus but anyway Asia's story then is legally worthless the witness who says she saw you at the exact moment when the State contends you were strangling a young woman in a car is worthless a few days after I spoke to Asia she wrote me an email I've been thinking a lot about Adnan she wrote all this time I thought the courts proved it was Adnan that killed her I thought he was where he deserved to be now I'm not so sure hey was our friend too and it sucks feeling like you don't know who really killed your friend hey was the sweetest person ever if he didn't kill hey we owed to him to try to make that clear and if he did kill her then we need to put this to rest I just hope that a nun isn't some sick bastard just trying to manipulate his way out of jail I wrote back believe me I'm on exactly the same page [Music] coming up this season on Syria I think that there are other people involved but maybe I think maybe he was set up I think he was set up somehow clearly to tell something's going on it wasn't good he was just strange immediately for anybody basically threatened me like you know what happens to hate this is what's going to happen to you that's how I felt second what are you thinking right now you have the same smile I do I'm literally thinking like like could he have gone crazy Jay told me he was being blackmailed by Ed but because at non-news a Jacob come over the police like if this works and he'd I mean every question we've had for the past eight months he knows it yeah I mean we all did it you know there's like running out of suspects [Music] Gerald's produced by Julie Snyder Dana chievous and me Emily Condon is our production and operations manager Ira Glass is our editorial advisor editing help from Nancy Updike fact-checking by Karen Berg Elizabeth special thanks to loot every Seth land Elise Bergersen and the entire staff of this American Life and to my in-laws Ethan Shire and Janet Levine for putting me up in Baltimore so many times in the past year support for serial comes from rocket mortgage by Quicken Loans lift the burden of getting a home loan with rocket mortgage and get a secure transparent home loan approval in minutes skip the bank skip the waiting and go completely online at Quicken Loans comm slash cereal here is a production of this American Life and WBE B Chicago [Music]