[Music] hello and welcome to the cambie festival of sportsbook i'm tim paul editor of gambling insider and i'm here to kick off a week full of insight and analysis as we talk about all things sports betting our panel starts off with zeno oscar ceo of bet warrior paul burns ceo of the canadian gaming association and christian paul satter director of sports at leo vegas but throughout the week you can expect plenty more from camby including keynote presentations from ceo christian nylon topics such as esports and sports betting integrity for the next hour or so stay with us as we talk about canada latin america and europe and for the rest of the week enjoy some of the finest analysis the industry has to offer [Music] hi zeno thanks very much for joining us today morning tim thanks for having me it's our pleasure to have you on uh excited to talk about that warrior and latin america um to start off with could you tell us about the brand what kind of markets you specialize in and how you try to stand out in the market absolutely um so bad warrior launched uh in may 2019 um so it's our third uh anniversary uh as you mentioned we we focus on uh on latin um having launched regulated markets in in argentina in the province and the city of buenos aires this december it's our biggest market currently and our second kind of focus market is is brazil and we also operate in chile peru mexico et cetera [Music] hi paul thanks very much for joining us today thanks for having me it's our pleasure to have you on um we spoke obviously uh ice london during the huddle and uh we're excited to speak to you a lot more in depth about canada for the canby sportswear festival here well i appreciate the opportunity to do that it's an exciting time here in canada so lots to talk about absolutely yeah i mean a popular topic um to start off with can you uh tell us i guess a brief history about uh canadian sports betting kind of regulated versus first grade market and also a bit about obviously what you guys do at the canadian gaming association sure the um community gaming association we're a national trade association representing offers and suppliers in the online casino space payment providers law firms uh technology and game providers so it's a wide range we have 60 member companies as part of the association today and we've been active on the sports betting front for uh for me over a decade now probably close to 12 years um canada has had legal sports wagering for decades it's been partly wagering bromley offered through sports lottery products so for canadians it was a lot of going to your local lottery retailer for many years to to access having to do a three-game minimum so we've been having a really not the greatest product offering at the time uh we had an emerging gray market of online gaming uh the law encounter has been unsettled about where does a bet occur on shore offshore no one's really wanted to find out answer that question so what we had this over the last well almost 20 years is a growing gray market and so canadians are wagering uh billions of dollars through offshore online sports books and so we've had that people have had a taste of trying to find the product they want and that's what uh for us the motivation to change the law and the criminal code was amended in june of 2021 uh just sort of about a year ago now and uh to permit legal uh single events towards wagering and that was allowing the canadian market operators in to do that casino operators for sports books um and so that's leveling the playing field a bit now creating a new market now we've combined that with ontario creating a legal regulated market and so that's why ontario's pretty popular place these days to talk about in canada but the sports wagering um marketplaces estimated that there was about um five six billion dollars in handle uh going offshore uh over the years um it wasn't debating it was growing and so that's part of the motivation we wanted to get the law changed to start to see some of the benefits here stay in canada so so we're thrilled it was done uh we're off and now canadians are having a lot more choice it's been great for consumers [Music] christian thanks very much for joining us today thank you guys for for having me yeah excited to talk to leo vegas uh looking forward to speaking to you about uh sports betting um obviously very well known in the online casino world leo vegas um but can you tell us more about the the company's sports book offering and the kind of markets you operate in yeah sure i mean as you mentioned la vegas is probably the most known as a casino brand and that's how it's all started 10 years ago uh casino only um we plugged in sports book 2016 just in time for for the euros back then uh and a couple of years later we did some acquisitions of a couple of brands that were mainly uk facing so bet uk and 21.code.uk is two more brands in the group that has a sports book we also acquired a brand called royal panda who has a sports book as well and last year we acquired the expect brand that is operating in sweden and finland also with a sportsbook over the years we have consolidated all these five brands into the camby platform um our logic for doing that was to i think increased efficiency and and the scalability internally uh making you know our internal processes and work a lot more efficient we were used to run on separate sportsbook platforms but now after consolidating things are working more smoother i would say we are currently operating in a number of different regulated markets mainly in europe our biggest biggest market is sweden and we're also in uk spain italy denmark germany um we're also in ontario um and and also in the industry and then yeah we're in a bunch of other sort of mda markets mainly in europe so that's how it's looking looking today for for us uh when it comes to sports [Music] so right now as as you mentioned with the the ontario market being being fresh and single event sports betting being quite quite young um what are the the main focuses in canada and what are the kind of brands and offerings that are standing out at the moment well the exciting part ontario's um marketplace opened april 4th uh on that day there was uh 12 14 operators um with about 17 sites who are now into the mid-20s uh probably on a way to closer to 40 or over 40 uh operators in the marketplace um so the consumers have great choice and so what we've seen is as i mentioned earlier with canadians having access to the great market as we called it uh and offshore sports books brands like leo vegas um unibad bear 365. uh i've all had a bet way of hell had good customer bases here in canada to begin with so it's a little different than what you've seen in the united states in the sense of is it a complete greenfield fresh open market no there's a strong customer base already built for some operators for others it is brand new and so when you see mohegan's coming with a mobile offering uh through falsely casino thanks to camby there's been lots of great um uh choices now for consumers the major brands uh are entering the marketplace and customers are getting lots of choice and it's gonna be an exciting time for them is where the product really is is now being able to to compete and look at what the offerings are and you know customers are you know together there's been strong downloads there's been lots of local a couple local operators like snorestar bets which is on the kambi platform and partner uh and the score uh giving a canadian flavor uh to canadian for canadian operators uh has been a really good opportunity for those companies to get and build their business here in ontario so anyway it's exciting time i mean i've been thrilled to watch it occur it's gone very very very smoothly uh to this point in time so we're thrilled and a competitive marketplace as i said we'll keep saying it's great for consumers the customers are going to have a great time yeah it must be quite a quite a paradox really in terms of the regulated market given the fact that we did you didn't even have single event sports betting before and it was kind of uh parlays and accumulated that kind of thing and as you say now that the choice and the kind of multiple products the offerings that you do have yeah it has been i think that it's opening up also an opportunity and there's still lots of room for growth in the ontario marketplace um i think you know there was the more call of you know committed sports bettor that was in the marketplace had apps down and working uh and placing bats but there's a brand new sort of wide open space for lots of new sports bettors uh to learn uh that's one of the challenges i think the companies had ease of use those are the kinds of things that i think people are gonna because sports betting can be complicated and we know that and a lot of numbers and people are not quite understanding lines and the rest and and i think that's part of the the need for operators to look at how do i attract a new customer how do i attract um a player that's going to stick with me who's a sports fan i've often said you know sports bettors don't often consider themselves gamblers in many ways they're sports fans you know i bet on sports that's all i do i don't go to casinos i don't do um so i think there's there's a lot of sports fans in canada and so i think that's going to be the exciting part um as ontario begins to remember offerings come out uh it's it's been lots of great chatter lots of excitement and uh you know what i think we've had you know obviously with uh nhl playoffs ongoing in in canada hockey's pretty popular but nfl football is still everybody's looking forward to football season because it's still an extremely popular product in canada for nfl football betting so there's lots of good things coming i think a lot of unique products people will see and and because the ontario market left everything open so esports is in everything's there so there's not really no exclusions live in-game everything's available which is very important it was important for us as an industry to make sure that they didn't leave any exclusions and put everything in because we wanted to make sure the customers had a wide array of choice and availability for all the products available [Music] so for lea vegas now what are your were your main focuses obviously it's a world cup year and how big is sportsbook and the sports building offering for a company that um you know as your predominantly kind of online casino is the main vertical yeah uh i mean historically sportsbook has been around ten percent of the the group's um uh gdr so i mean yes casino is is a lot bigger right now but we are also focusing a lot on the sportsbook vertical because we want to diversify our um the revenue streams across the different verticals basically yeah um so right now i mean i think leo vegas is always that is our biggest brand um when it comes to well any vertical really including sports but it is very much a casino oriented brand what we want to do right now is to create something sports-led within the group so that was um one of the main reasons why we acquired the expect brand last year like we have big plans to enter more markets we'd expect is currently only in sweden and finland and you know make it a really really great uh sports sled brand i mean what le vegas is a casino we want to make uh expect the same thing for sports so that is what we're focusing a lot on right now um to to really um get that brand uh going and i mean the initial the first year of the decision has been great the growth has been exceptional but we want to to go into more markets we'd expect and also of course improve the products we believe a lot in in a personalized approach um creating a personalized user experience to make it always as relevant as possible and that goes in how we present you know the product and all the sports etc but also in our communication with players i mean in our crm communication we try to personalize that as much as possible and i think we are just at the very early phases of that journey and we're focusing a lot on on on that moving forward because we think that that's one way of over time increased increasing our the length of our relationship with our players which is a key you know focus point for for any operator right now to to really drive and improve the retention rate so that is something we're focusing a lot on as you mentioned this year is a world cup year and as always when there are these big tournaments it's super important for us mainly us as uh as an acquisition driver to to really bring in new players uh we're super excited to see how this world cup will differ from from the ones we have experienced in the past normally when you have a big tournament it ends in mid july when it's like you know not nothing else going on after that so you have the final and then it's like one month or nothing before the the big leagues start again whereas this year obviously um it ends in december and i mean you so you know the leagues are back in full swing um after a week or so after the final so we are excited to see what that can uh do to the retention of all the um world cup new players that we expect to be to bring in so i mean we are really excited about it and um a lot of our core markets participate in it um so yeah it's it's important for us and it's something we already have planned for uh for a while actually you mentioned the the 10 figure in terms of traditionally sports book um and it sounds certainly like you're you're definitely trying to grow that number um what kind of percentage do you think sportsbook could end up uh taking of the whole company's percentage of revenue given your expectations for uh so expectations for expect uh didn't mean any any kind of wordplay there um potentially could it be a 50 50 split or is that maybe a little bit too ambitious i mean you never know right i mean we we believe a lot in in the possibilities with sports and i mean we there is a lot for us to improve on when it comes to sport we need to be humble and say that but there is also a big opportunity for us there is a lot of market share for us to to grab there so for us it's not um i mean it's not so relevant to to mention a specific figure specific share we want to increase our sports presence and of course we want to to to maintain our position as a as a leader within the casino uh space as well so we want to do both things at the same time basically so it's more about ramping up the sportsbook thing and do that in parallel just as well as we have done casino historically i would say [Music] looking at sports betting in 2022 now you mentioned the buenos aires market um we have a world cup coming up a lot of potential in brazil and argentina again two key markets you mentioned um one of the biggest kind of focuses for you as a ceo of a sports betting operator right now in 2022 um great question tim as you as you mentioned we have a world cup a year ahead of us and in our two biggest markets argentina and and brazil everyone is already extremely excited around the the world cup um our team is located in in argentina and the argentinians are extremely bullish about this year's world cup and from my perspective as ceo of of the company the most important thing is to make sure that we that we are ready in time to make sure that we that we capture the the maximum um out of this great possibility in terms of uh acquisition uh in terms of in terms of branding as well as i mentioned we launched three three years ago ago um so we're already busy producing content and yeah making sure that everything is in in place in time for the world cup uh we're also busy working on on the platform and the sports betting product and yeah we're looking forward towards a great world cup in in qatar is this world cup the biggest acquisition opportunity for you as a brand since since the big launch it's definitely the biggest acquisition opportunity um especially since we launched the argentinian licenses recently and and one last question on the world cup um i mean do you fancy argentina's chances i guess it's messi's uh last big chance on the you know on the world stage yeah it's always difficult to say but i'm sure they they'll give it everything they they have and at least for now i'd say things are pretty looking pretty good for them [Music] so as as sports betting in europe progresses what kind of uh innovations or developments do you think we might see in the next few years uh i think it's going to be more of the same as we have experienced uh the last couple of years i mean everyone expects esports to grow i mean we do so as well and then i mean the way you know people are consuming sports these days i mean it's all about like the attention span gets shorter and shorter and that's what players is expecting now when they when they uh enter sportsbook to bet they expect the site to be fast they expect to find the markets quick they expect to be able to um you know place their bad quicks and get the pay and pay out quickly and so on so i think that trend will continue and also how this the younger generation um i mean they're more into the the big names in infantry football as an example they follow pogba or messi or ronaldo those types of players rather than the teams which might have been the case historically so all those uh i mean stats based market player props etc that have started to emerge the last couple of years i think that uh trend is just going to continue uh more and more and players are gonna you know expect to be able to bet on um you know anything player related in across different sports really so that's uh one trend that will continue for sure on the more sort of boring side if you like i mean we also expect the trend of tough regulations to continue um you know more and more markets regulate and also um more and more markets markets make the regulation the existing regulation a bit tougher towards um operators so we expect that trend to to continue as well um and especially around sort of bonusing and incentives like that and that is going to be more and more rules around how you incentivize players which means that us operators needs to move away from the strategy that might have been been there historically of screaming loudest about the highest bonus to actually having um a really strong product that players like and want to to come back to and i mean that's gonna be the case that's something we welcome because we always pride ourselves in having the best possible product in all aspects around the igem experience so um yeah that's the trend that we we expect will continue um a couple of follow-ups on those topics um because you mentioned kind of two key trends um on the first one um do you see a a time when i guess player markets such as goal scorers and as you mentioned kind of stats maybe shots on target has been quite popular kind of the last couple of years do you think we'll we'll we'll get to a period when those markets will will in every kind of stretch um be more popular than the teams markets i don't think we will reach that level uh anytime soon the gap is too big but i think they will grow in popularity and more players will find them um especially as as our customer base is going to be more and more consisting of this younger generation that has grown up um in this area yeah i mean i think the first time we we really realized this was probably when um cristiano ronaldo moved from real madrid to juventus and the turnover on juventus matches skyrocketed amongst all accounts because yeah you know he's a big big personality and and and um you know a good player that a lot of people follow and so on so i think that's when we sort of realized that this is there's probably something in this and um yeah we expect that to to continue really and potentially into other other sports as well now it's a lot of um it's very football oriented our discussion right now and the markets so far but we expect that to come to other sports as well yeah very interesting definitely in terms of uh the ronaldo juventus example um and my other follow-up was going to be obviously you mentioned regulations and and you know bonusing and marketing is that eventually going to seriously discourage i guess newer smaller players in the market it might i think we've already seen that to a certain extent and i mean the some of the m a's we've seen in the space recently is probably driven partly by by that and smaller operators have a harder time keeping up with all the regulations and all the changes in regulations that happens as well um so yeah i think right now it's not it was probably easier to to start a new sports book 10 years ago than it is today and and i think that's going to scare off some people there is also apart from the regulation there is also the increased costs in in data and live streaming those types of things that that you may need to to sort of have a have a good product and that's i would say also adds to them to the box or what's scary together with the regulation so i think yeah unfortunately right now it's um [Music] it will scare off some people i i would say from from you know starting from scratch i would say [Music] as sports betting in latin america progresses uh what kind of changes and uh perhaps innovations developments do you see coming over the next few years uh great question i think the biggest change in development we're going to see in latin is regulation as you know everyone is counting the days for for brazil to to regulate it's the biggest market in in latime obviously and we're pretty sure that once brazil regulates a lot of other markets are going to regulate as well [Music] looking at atlanta as a as a region i'd say the the big challenge for as an as an operator and that might go hand in hand with with changes as well is um it's it's new markets right so you're you're confronting a lot of people with a product uh category they haven't seen uh before so you need to do a lot of education around sports betting around you know how the product works what the different bed types are et cetera et cetera and in order to do that well you need to you need to do a lot of work around the around the core product basically there's a lot of discussion about the potential of brazil as you mentioned it's the biggest market in in latin america um it's difficult to say obviously without a crystal ball you know looking into the future but on a global scale how how do you think brazil can compare to key markets around the world good question i'd say i i i'd say it'll take more time than people think for brazil to to realize its its potential as i said before it's a it's a new product category for a lot of people in the market yes everyone cares deeply about football in brazil you know other indicators for for for market uh you know point in the right direction as well mobile penetration is extremely high uh et cetera et cetera um but it'll it'll take uh it'll take some more time than than people than people might think um in order yeah to to you know for the market to to realize it's its full potential um brazil certainly has its uh peculiarities um you know at least at least for now payments uh isn't is an issue as in a lot of you know non-regulated markets probably that'll that'll improve once the market market regulates um but definitely in terms of uh market size in terms of interest you know for football and other sports as well as in a way entertainment media consumption all the right signs are there for for brazil to be one of the most exciting sports betting markets in the next five years and you mentioned uh new markets that may follow when brazil regulates and maybe uh follow the example if it gets certain things right hopefully it gets more right than it gets wrong in terms of regulation um in terms of the other markets um are there any in particular that warrior and yourself have your eye on perhaps yeah i'd say the other non-regulated latin markets we're currently operating operating in it's uh it's a very big um opportunity you know in in in a way also from a um more operations perspective um besides brazil a lot of people that speak spanish in uh in the region um one of the things all those countries have in common is a shared passion for especially especially football and um yeah i mean there's hundreds of millions of of people in in the region so there is a lot of potential out there [Music] so naturally as we've already discussed uh single event sports voting in ontario very young markets so that really leaves i guess right for change in the next few years if we were to talk about how things are going to grow and develop what do you see potentially changing over the next few years and obviously for markets so kind of young a regulated market so young how does that affect the way operators can market to their players as well that's right so one of the things ontario worked on quite diligently was being able to provide a pretty much a seamless transition for those in the gray market to enter the regulated market so no one had to leave no one had to stop uh there was an issue of you had to read kyc your customers you had to cancel future bets and move everybody to your compliant platform but by and large uh there was no bad actor clauses everybody was welcome and so that transition is is happening and ongoing as long as operators filed applications before the fourth some new changes for them so we've got some outstanding one outstanding issue around liquidity uh ontario players have been used with international liquidity we don't have that right now uh but there's a legal question that's still being determined it's an unsettled question so we hope to have a more uh i think a lot of people want to see liquidity international liquidity available in ontario so we hope we can get there on advertising one thing that's been really unique is that especially for north american perspective no mass-market advertising of bonuses and incentives and so that's taken that away not through affiliates not through social media influencers you can't do it they can offer them they just have to you player has to come to your site uh to find them and uh so that's that's really the one big change takes it out of uh and what we've seen is that the you know the level of offers while they're competitive uh they're not nearly at the the levels that we've seen in the united states and that's fine and operators are actually quite pleased with some of this and they're out they can compete on product and customer service um they're looking forward to that so and then they have the opportunity to work with those who have registered and open accounts they're the customers they can make them offers and incentives through that process once they've engaged them so uh it's um it's a big a minor clip something that some people are not used to but i think it's still extremely effective for the marketplaces as it is new it's broad there's lots of operators coming to the market i think the regulator and the government wanted to make sure there was a measured approach to offering uh gaming we have strong rgb uh both standards in the regulatory framework and also in the contract the operating contract that operates with signed by gaming ontario so you know there's a lot of um because canada has really had that commitment to rg for for decades and we're some of the world leaders in some of the programs and others we offered and companies are bringing their expertise that they have so you know we have a really a strong model a strong framework in which to work from and i think that you know what we're seeing um in the early days is that it's been actually a pretty seamless transition the canadian banks have from payment process there's been a few bumps but nothing severe uh transaction approval rates are probably well over 90 still so it you know minor really minor stuff that we've been able to uh create a regulatory regime that's been inviting there's a 20 rev share in ontario um with operators in government uh so and we've seen through the level of interest in the number of operators entered and soon to be entering the marketplace we know it's been popular is it fair to say that's maybe night and day with the new york mobile market at the moment with uh i guess you've got perhaps less choice but certainly mass marketing real big bonuses it is i think that you between the bonus and the tax rate i think in new york is causing some uh some issues unless this people are not getting into specifics but you know ontario looked at it from the fact that that ontarians in in this in the gray market continues in the rest of canada um that they've had access and customers had access one of the government's first principles when they got into deciding they were going to head down this path and regulate i gaming uh was they didn't want to interrupt the customer experience in some ways they didn't want to put a government agency between them and the customer and the product they didn't want to um really try and change much of the experience that they had been having um the liquidity question is one that's that has changed some of the experience because dfs for example has been ceasing to be offered in ontario because the pool is not big enough um other products are affected the poker but we hope to see if we can get liquidity back into the the equation uh getting some legal questions cleared up but by and large the government looked at this from that perspective and and i think the regulatory touch people would be more familiar with it looks more like a european regulated market to place than it does at united states regulated market um because they went out and learned they sought to they talked to operators and asked them what they would what they would like to see they talked to regulators around the world because they recognized that hey they were kind of last man in if you wanted to look at it that way um there's a lot of regulated markets around the world uh we didn't want to reinvent the wheel but wanted to get an idea what are we best practices and so that's what we've we've seen and you know there's it's learning there's early days they've got a very open mind about how they want to approach the market there's a lot of the compliance requirements are falling to operators to ensure that their suppliers are are meeting the standards not doing business with black market with black market operators in ontario so there's lots of the onus to shift to for is really on the operator on their compliance side um but it's been received by and large and i think um you know they're gonna see what works and what doesn't work in the months ahead i think that's important and they're gonna their willingness to uh say you know we can make changes they've told you know the industry we see our regulatory standards as a living document we see we we may only make changes and we're going to come to the industry and talk about those you guys may want changes you can come to talk to us that's a great productive relationship to start with and i think that's why we've been successful [Music] so as you know if you were to look ahead to a rough figure maybe in five years time how different will sports betting look um in latin america and in terms of the court offering um do you see a lot of change a lot of innovation or is sports betting is is the very fundamental offering always going to remain relatively similar um yeah thanks for the for the question tim yeah let me see where to where to start um let's start with the with the core product functionality i think this is something that will not change uh a lot over the next over the next couple of years i think even if looking back back at the last couple of years and seeing how sports betting has changed i think we're in a period of of evolution so we're not going to see um big steps and radical changes in in the product um personally i think that the biggest change the industry um has seen was the the launch of live uh live betting everything that we've seen since then is actually you know improving something that was already already out there so definitely we'll see more uh live betting i personally hope to see more ideas around how to make sports betting more accessible to in a way non-experts right so with the with the depth of markets and the depth of sports betting opportunities i think there's a lot of people out there that are actually overwhelmed by the products that we that we provide that's definitely in yeah an issue in in latin now going back to the to the to markets uh i'd say uh the challenge for us in latime is is going to be how to provide a a engaging sports betting experience for beginners and recreational recreational punters and um you know in european markets a lot of the the behavior has been learned over years and years and most people don't uh really mind if you if you present them what is more or less an excel spreadsheet still today um i think that's going to be or at least we as as a as a company are going to try and do uh things differently uh going forward we're building you know a lot of product around the core betting experience we think you need to do more in order to engage a changing audience and i think this is also uh important right uh people's behaviors and preferences uh change and you need to do a lot of work in order to to yeah um capture those those those changes and those uh opportunities going forward um as you say in play um i guess the biggest uh big cliche but the biggest game changer out there in the last few years um but i'm not sure if you agree perhaps things like cash out and maybe bet builders to your point they they're building very much on an existing product but they're kind of the you know the little tweaks that have changed things as well um from your analysis um sorry from your analysis um i guess user experience is is maybe the biggest thing that needs to change and could change in the next few years absolutely um it's it's all about user experience uh the products or the sports betting experience as such is getting more and more um commoditized right so i think a couple of years ago you'd see big differences in terms of markets offered in terms of you know live events offered and so on i think we're we're in a in a world now where [Music] you know brand preference is is important if you look at the core product um a lot of companies out there offer more or less the same the same product as such so you need to work really hard on on the user experience inside of sports betting or inside the sports betting product but also in you know the other core areas of of the product in payments in you know the onboarding flow extremely important especially in regulated markets if you look at a market like like argentina certainly the city of buenos aires for example has a very demanding onboarding process and there are a lot of things you can do you can do wrong and and that's always a big opportunity to do things better than our competition [Music] so christian given everything we've discussed so far um in five years time are we going to see a european sports betting market an offering that's tremendously different with a lot of innovation and a lot of new markets or are we actually going to be looking at something that's going to be relatively stable as it was sort of 10 20 years ago the core offering relatively the same um i would say relatively the same if we're talking about the five five year period i mean as i mentioned earlier i think everyone is expecting esports to to grow uh i mean during the the the first wave of the pandemic table 10 is emerged as a really new live betting sport like that so those things can always happen and you can have external factors um helping the growth of certain sports um but i don't think that in five years time we will look at a completely new um offering and a completely new landscape compared to to what we have today i think a lot of it a lot of the a lot of the development will come within sort of the player-focused markets and will be around you know product innovation outside of the the sportsbook vertical say i think players will expect to have you know seemless seamless way of you know logging in depositing withdrawing etc submitting documents unlike all those things that can be pain points for players today i think if you look at sort of companies from from from other industries they are sometimes a lot better than the game our industry when it comes to things like signing up etc so i think the users will expect our industry to be on the same level as everyone else when it comes to those things so i think a lot of the innovation will be driven around this sort of the things that supports the sportsbook experience one thing that i'm a bit excited or that will be interesting to follow is sort of new types of uh operators that is marching i mean we saw the other month about uh the zone launching the sports book so i think uh we might see some some some new type of operators in that way that uh is gonna affect sort of the overall betting landscape a little bit and then see how that impacts competition between operators but i don't think um that the core sportsbook experience would be that much different in five years [Music] so a final question for you paul from me is uh in in five years time five being an arbitrary figure you know basically in a few years down the line um how different will the canadian sports betting market the regulated one be and i anticipate compared to our other focused regions of europe and latin america i anticipate canada may see a lot more change and a lot more development as it's so kind of early in the growth stage yeah it is very early in the growth stage and i think what we've seen um what we hope to see is while ontario is open with a with an open regulated license marketplace in ontario for operators we want to see other provinces we want to see the end of the gray market in canada as an industry we want to see regulated market replaces and what those look like we hope that they you know we'll look at ontario look at the success we've had so far hopefully that continues i suspect it will that they look at it from a customer experience customers desire to have a choice of product um but also making sure that those consumer protections are in place there's a level playing field for operators across the country we want all of that uh so both the domestic operators those from offshore whoever wants to come and play in the marketplaces uh can and and are able to um so we think that hopefully within the next three to five years we'll see most of canada will have become regulated marketplaces that's my hope and i think we're going to see a very sophisticated market i think a lot of diversity in the work that canada there's a lot of uh what people often refer to as the long tail offerings i think will provide some uniqueness to the market beyond the nfl nhl nba but um cricket soccer football um you know rugby curling has become a product that's being offered here so you know there's lots of choices and and i think that's that will be um provide some of the uniqueness of the canadian marketplace so you know what it's going to exciting times ahead and i think will be a very productive five years for the industry as we look forward so exciting times and there we have it a great note to end on thank you paul for your time and your answers thank you also to zeno and thank you also to christian and we'll be handing over the reins to another christian soon as camby's festival sports book continues with ceo christian nylon and cco cecilia wachmeister from me and gambling cider thanks very much for watching and enjoy the rest of the week's content [Music] you