[Music] hi alex thanks very much for joining us pleasure um yeah thank you for your time today uh before we before we get into any questions i can't help but notice that the tactics boards you've got behind you and they look really cool can you tell us a bit about them uh yeah um i guess i guess they've been the backdrop to uh every call that i've had now for the last couple of 18 months as we've been in lockdown but so it was actually a gift from my wife actually they are the three goals from the champions league to uh final in 2005 between ac milan and liverpool so it's basically a visual representation of every goal yeah that's fantastic uh you didn't mention you're a liverpool supporter i could have i could have won my liverpool top which i have done for a huddle in the past dig it out from the 80s yeah exactly um but yeah hopefully a good season ahead for liverpool but obviously today we're here to talk about yourself and pronate gaming and to start off with it it'd be uh i think a nice intro would be just if you kind of told us walk us through your kind of history in the industry and how you got involved in gaming yeah well i mean um i always think that gaming is an industry that finds you as opposed to you you finding gaming i think like a lot of people just seem to sort of come across it accidentally but once they're in they get the bug and it's very very difficult to leave i mean my my own background i've got a degree in biochemistry um which is uh not very useful for gaming for dinner parties um so so i then went into um after my degree i went into uh sports broadcasting where working working out with bt tower and then got involved in that side of the industry then eventually going through to the press association when i was head of sales in terms of sports data so they were naturally starting to deal with the provision of sports data and sports news to some of the main the main online gaming sites in the uk at the time i then moved to another um another telecoms company and then one day i got a call from a recruiter with regards to a role at sporting vets which was a marketing role a marketing a vip role in their uk sportsbook team so that was my first foray into gaming for the first couple of weeks it was um it was just a bombardment of everything you know marketing data it was it was it was quite intimidating um but once you kind of get your head around it then i think you know most people find that it's the most invigorating industry to be involved in just because it gives you everything essentially so i stayed at sporting bet which then evolved into gbc for around um around five years running various businesses from them starting off with the uk then moving on to some of the international markets which has now really been my speciality i would say for the last five or six years um after after that time at gbc i was ready for a bigger challenge so i went over to offside gaming when i took on a managing director role and helping to improve the quality of their sites but from the point of view of a b2b platform provider i then had a stint running a site called smart live casino in the uk which was probably fair to say quite a difficult experience given the shareholders involved but uh but one that i certainly learned a hell of a lot from um i then had a further three years at william hill where i was initially director of international and then um after two years i moved on into their corporate development department where i was helping to take them into some of these newer jurisdictions like argentina brazil mexico and so on and so forth um so that was a that was a very very good experience but i think that when i look back to the time when i was ceo of smart live casino i think once you've once you've experienced doing it yourself from the top it's very very difficult in some respects to go back to working again in a big corporate so i mean whilst i had three great years at william hill it's probably fair to say that i was just waiting really for the next opportunity to arise obviously had to be the right opportunity and that's when i heard of the um the role with with pronate gaming and what they understood what their aspirations were with regards to expanding the portfolio of the markets it was absolutely the role that i was um that i was always waiting for sure a lot of interesting points there and i i definitely take your point about gaming kind of finding you that's something i i can relate to and a few people i've interviewed and something else people have said let me know if you agree with this is gaming finds you but once you enter the industry uh more often than not it can be an industry for life it's very difficult to leave it but like you say it offers you quite a lot yeah yeah 100 yeah um you talked about your time at william hill and uh i definitely take your point about uh you're waiting for a kind of a next big opportunity in terms of leadership um but how useful beneficial was working kind of in the emerging markets and new territories at william hill because uh you know as we understand the moment that's a that has a lot to do with what prone it is about aiming for yeah so i mean um that experience i got that from my time at sporting bets uh they were quite pushy with regards to the international markets that they were going um and likewise when when gbc came in uh you know with what's um with what kenny had done um you know they they were they were very much you know um pushing the way really into into these new markets so i guess the the remits for me at william hill initially as a director of international was to run their regulated businesses in italy and spain which of course come with their own their own challenges a lot of advertising restrictions a lot of technical restrictions which actually can withhold the product and when you've got a business which is as big as william hill you know through no fault of their own um it can be quite difficult sometimes to be as agile as you maybe need to be in some of those regulated markets so i started to maybe take advantage of their businesses in in the other markets that they have you know the other kind of gray markets like japan for example and then as i moved into corporate developments it became obvious to me that i think you know when you add to their acquisition of uh mr green um there was clearly an appetite to go into into new markets which were either on the on the point of regulation or or just regulated already but maybe there were markets that were very unfamiliar to william hill you know traditionally their sort of uk retail business online business was always their bedrock but i think they they did start to have aspirations to go further to feel so that that's what i did for them so i started off the um the license application into buenos aires province for example you know going over there making partnerships you know stuff that maybe william hill wasn't quite used to so that was quite an exciting role for me and uh i worked on the crispin nieber that's william hill i learned a lot from him i would say in terms of um general general um m a modus operandi almost to sort of understand how you judge the value of a company and which kpis you look for and i'm using that skill set today at pronet when i'm considering you know not not just new clients for pro nets but also the m a side of this but as for as a pronet's focus i mean i think it's probably fair to say that there was a perception previously maybe before i joined that it was like the the emerging market specialist and i have to say that's something that i'm keen for us to get away from because we are operating in regulated markets you know there's many markets in africa for example which are regulated um latin america is a region which is regulating rapidly you know colombia being the first uh followed by some of the provinces in argentina and then down to the likes of peru and brazil which are going to be regulating very soon mexico is a regulated market and equally there's movements within asia now as well as i'm sure you've heard you know the likes of vietnam and cambodia moving towards regulation so i think um this may be a sort of easy perception to have that we're like the emerging markets specialist um i think that can create a certain perception but then again our product actually we've developed is is relevant for these newly regulated markets so i suppose um in that bid to maybe change that perception what do you perhaps have to do to get that message i guess more more out there about the regulated markets well i think i think i think that's been the job really from the start um you know the way the way that i always pitched pronate gaming to the new employees because if you remember you know the business was already pre-existing before i joined it was already a very very successful business with over 45 clients you know with a very very healthy operating profit or beer it was more or less focused on on one niche market and um my pitch almost to the to the new potential employees was it's almost like the biggest b2b provider that you've not heard of yes so that was my job to really get the pro net name out there and i would argue that you know the level of marketing that we now have is is is excellent something that i'm very very proud of with what we do across you know linkedin general digital advertising and the stand that we had ice in february 2020 that was a real statement it was it was a huge success for us um and that's actually what paved the way to the growth that we saw during 2020 you know we signed over 21 new customers between june and december 2020. so i think really it's um it's about it's about getting pronets onto the what i would call the top table if you like of of b2b platform providers and that's been the work in progress really um over the last 18 months for me you know starting from scratch effectively with regards to marketing yeah and now you know i i think that's realistic so i mean for us to get there so quickly you know ahead of so many other b2b platform providers shows really what we've done in the markets not just in terms of the product but what we've done with regards to brand perception and marketing and for me it just feels pretty inevitable it's a matter of time before we before we start to win these awards um and that will come you know with us having now won some of the major tier one deals in these new emerging markets so so given kind of um the the achievements you you you've set out and and the kind of i guess the things you're aiming for how would you kind of sum up your time as ceo of pronet so far well hopefully pretty successful i would hope uh well the shareholders seem happy so so that's um that's the most important thing um no look i mean um when i set about starting off pronate in the uk you know um in terms of a commercial hq it was always my aim to build the company that i always wanted to work for so i mean i would say in terms of the quality of the team that i have at my disposal i couldn't be prouder and i guess i have to take some credit for that because i'm the one that recruited them in the first place but it's a good team you know and and everyone who is there wants to be there that's that's one of the key criteria and believe me we've had interviews with many many good candidates for various roles but their desire hasn't been quite right or they've been weighing up offers you know from other companies we don't really want that we want people who who buy into what we want to achieve um and what our goals and objectives are for the next um for the next five years so look um as a ceo you know my remit is obviously to drive growth so we've seen that so in 2020 we drove 18 growth in relation to 2019 and this year in 2021 i think that we'll be disappointed if we're not seeing probably 25 to 30 percent growth in the business and that comes just down to improving the product so therefore the customers that we already have have more ability to make more money and therefore we do because of because of how we um how we charge our clients and secondly with the new clients that we're bringing on board as they gradually grow and get used to the new product that they have and they're able to exploit that across a whole number of markets you know i think i think that growth will continue so um i think we're now almost at the crossroads now where we are um we are in a position to to be winning what i would call the tier one deals and perhaps one of the areas like where we can specialize in is perhaps with the tier ones you know dara say it like the ones like william hill for example who who've been very very active in the heavily regulated european markets but now wish to get in on the action that's happening in these other ones like africa and like latam so many of our discussions of late uh have been around you know taking these big tier 1 operators into these new markets where by the product that they have they're never going to be agile enough to be able to adapt it so therefore it makes sense to work with someone like ourselves who can help them and on that point as a ceo if there was and this might put you on the spot a little bit if there was one thing that uh absolutely anything in the world for pronoun but you can only choose one kind of wish um you know what would it be i apologize that may put you on the spot no it's a good question a fair question as well if there's one thing that i would like for pronet well um you know it's our job really to be at the forefront of uh product development okay on behalf of our clients to sort of be pushing the boundaries um now obviously since the pandemic the challenge has actually been on on the recruitments of new developers um you know if you think about it over the pandemic you know every business that you can think of across every sector has all gone online so therefore the global demand for developers has has really gone up you know it is it is now much more difficult to um to recruit developers in particular which is why you know we've had to up our game really with regards to the marketing and the recruitment and the benefits that we offer to kind of bring people in so we had one wish it would just be to magically have you know an additional 500 developers now right to be able to um to be able to to sort of make sure that that our platform is always pushing at the very forefront of new technologies and not that not that we're actually behind the curve now but you're effectively behind the curve if you if you're not if you're not constantly moving on so that's that's what i would like it will happen we will bring the people in that we need in terms of developers but um you know as we're sure every other operator and b to b provider what a test it's just uh it's just not fast enough you know for my liking because of the increased competition there's a very long answer to your question but a very honest one nonetheless yeah no i think i think it's a fair answer you definitely you pinpointed something there that actually could could lead on to i mean my next couple of questions one is going to be about the competition you mentioned but i was going to ask excuse me what are the the major challenges you face in the industry right now and i think you kind of you've alluded to one there in terms of the development side but you know is that your biggest challenge you know one of the other things i can imagine regulation as well that kind of thing it can be but you know don't forget for for a b2b platform provider um the regulation challenge is almost um indirect in some respects so for example for us to be able to take clients into regulated markets we ourselves you know do not always need to have a b2b license from that jurisdiction it's actually the onus is on the b2c operator to ensure that their platform is compliant with the local regulations so for example if they're using us then actually we have to be compliant but we don't have to go through a license application per se in every eventuality i think it more comes down to the certifications from the likes of gli and bmm um so yeah i mean i think what what we're finding and i guess this is how we respond to the challenges that the b2c operators are facing is um when they're going into these new emerging markets which are which is now starting to regulate across africa that i'm in asia um they don't have the expertise to do it you know if it's in a european market they know what to do in terms of platform in terms of payments in terms of team and marketing and so on and so forth some of these markets that they know they need to go into can be quite alien to them so what we're finding is we're coming under more pressure now not just to provide the platform but to provide the managed solution which includes the marketing so like the affiliate marketing any uh above the line that may not be possible even advising clients on local law firms and how to create new companies so we we have been taking very much of a consultative approach with these new clients so actually i mean in certain markets because of the team that i have you know we all have our uh our specialisms i would say in terms of specific knowledge about a certain market and very often it's about knowing who to pick the phone up to to get something done so um so that is a challenge for us really to sort of keep abreast of that and make sure that we can that we can support our clients in into what is effectively a new market entry for them in these um in these jurisdictions absolutely sure no i'm losing my voice but there we go um as i mentioned the next question and this is the point you mentioned as well is competition which i guess it is a form of challenge um you know sort of in any in any industry really how does pronet stand out with with such competition in sports betting and also to a point of if if a company says we are you know the market leader in this field you may well be um or any company may well be but there'll be a number of companies making similar claims and you know it's like um there's a lot of good companies it's a competitive industry so you know how exactly do you stand out and say especially sports betting now globally uh us certain markets i mean uk it's always been very very saturated yeah um yeah i mean this is this is this is why we specifically targeted um the regulated markets across africa and last time in asia for that reason you know the uk market is very saturated and i think with any market where there's a significant tax burden it is difficult for companies to use a third-party provider you know it it is just a it's a it's it's a harder it's a harder business case to look through when you're having to consider you know an extra percentage of your gtr to pay a platform provider so that's why i think that our strength is actually when it comes to these other markets which are obviously regulated in in quite a different way and maybe where the marketing spend doesn't need to be quite so big you know if you look at like the european markets most tier one firms are spending between sort of 15 and 20 of their marketing of of of their ngr on marketing spend you know it's significant so when you add another percentage there for the platform and you got another percentage there for the tax it becomes becomes quite tight so um i mean yeah in in those in those newer markets uh in terms of how we compete i think it's probably fair to say that with africa we've we've in many respects we've been we've been quite surprised i have to say by how quickly we were able to to gain a very very strong foothold over there we worked hard on the products very much for that market so with some very very specific features which are going to be applicable to um to to you know end users across africa so across payments and how they use retail to place bets and how they interact between online and retail i think that's that's that's that's how we sort of tend to compete there but i think like in some respects you know we've seen the competition go up but also seeing it go down you know obviously with with sb tech of course now being involved with draftkings you know that's that's kind of left a void in the market um which which um you know many platform providers will be looking to to fill obviously btobeck was acquired by um by aspire global you know into into one bigger piece so that's obviously has been a bit of consolidation there and i think that with the aspirations into the us market that in many respects has actually played in our favor because what we're seeing is it's very very difficult for either b2c operators or b2b operators to be to be effective in both at the same time it almost feels like people are going with all their eggs in one basket so people are going you know with a big foray into the u.s it's making it more difficult for them to continue to to be cutting edge in in the other markets which i think is where is where we can compete um very effectively yeah absolutely um thank you for all the analysis and answers so far i've got kind of one one final question really fun it's quite an open-ended one and sure you know you would have talked about kind of goals and targets and ambitions already but to kind of conclude what are what are your kind of goals for pronoun moving forward have you got any specific ones as we sort of head into 2022 and also as a ceo and as an executive yourself on a personal map um well in terms of prona itself uh the goal the goal is uh is of course to grow the business but also to be able to get to the point where we are where where we are like the number one provider across the markets that we're going into so that's afrika latam and um and asia so we want to be we want to be known to have like the number one product i think that there are certain scenarios in the african market for example where we can legitimately claim to be the number one but i think that has to be backed up doesn't it with the awards ultimately and i think that with us being a relatively new entrance into into the b2b uh industry um [Music] uh i think i just want to see us actually solidify our position there in respect of you know getting the getting the kind of industry recognition and probably you know how how maybe some of the other brands have been doing so far so that that would that would be my kind of honest aspiration so things are going really really well now we've already completely changed the perception of the brand i just want to see you solidify that so you know for every single awards when there's you know 10 nominees i want to see is in the top three you know for everyone that we're going for so that would be an aspiration as a ceo i think the one thing that i want to make sure that we maintain because don't forget as we grew the team in london um at the beginning because there's obviously a smaller number of staff it's it's very much a kind of like family environment you know everyone's so close everyone's like base you know in a in a small office you know working very very closely you know particularly in the build up to our first ice but we've obviously grown uh considerably since then so my challenge there my aim really is to make sure that we maintain that culture and it's a difficult thing as you get bigger because you can't spend time with everyone so that puts down a challenge to me to sort of try to maintain that and the way that i always see ourselves is we have we have the robustness of a big corporate because of the operating profit that we drive but we have the agility of a startup and it's it's that old startup culture that i want to maintain but um it's it's a tough ask really and that that's that's my that's my goal i would say to uh to sort of try and maintain that and to get one of these awards for um employer of the year that would make me very happy if we were to win that well alex thanks very much for your time and i've just realized that you've got your tactics board but i can silly you with my with a livable mug i should have known that before did you yeah it's been sitting right in front of me i should have yeah look well one as well might say yes uh well yeah you've got gerard here i don't think you can you can just about come out yeah um but yeah um you'll never walk alone but uh thanks very much for your time thank you very much yeah great to speak with you thank you [Music] you