[Music] [Music] e [Music] all right welcome everybody to standing for truth my name is Donnie and I am your host and moderator for tonight's much anticipated debate on the topic of Israel and it is a privilege to have two experienced Debaters Steve Greg and David Preston to engage specifically the question what is God's plan for is Israel and I have been excited for this debate for a while I know you and the audience have been as well as we've already got over 200 people here to enjoy this epic exchange this will be a thought-provoking one that's for sure so Gentlemen let's let's get acquainted kind of break the ice a little bit before we get into our uh debate itself Steve Greg let's start with you it is your first time here on the program I know how busy you are so I really appreciate the time that you've given to us for this Steve how are you today and also a little bit about yourself well I'm I'm fine today thank you um I'm h a Bible teacher been doing that for 54 years that's my vocation uh been full-time I ran a bible school for 16 years I've been uh hosting a radio program for 27 years called the narrow paath and we have a website by that name too the narrow path.com uh I'm I have no Specialties except teaching Through the Bible and answering Bible questions and that's what I do on the radio show I answer Bible questions people call in awesome well I appreciate that Steve I do appreciate your uh radio program and also the channel that you have where uh the the uploads are are coming in from your videos and so for those who want to see more from Steve do please check the description box of this video where I do have the relevant links including your website uh there for people to to check out so thank you so much Steve uh David good to have you back as well you're certainly no stranger to uh the standing for truth debate platform so how have you been and also a little bit about yourself Donnie brother I'm doing very well thank you so much for asking and I hope you're doing well and Steve thank you so much brother for joining uh Us in this uh what's going to be a discussion about a very uh important subject which is focused on Israel to the audience thank you so much for taking time just to watch us uh I really appreciate it we're going to do our best to give you a very good discussion on a very important topic a little about myself well I'm out here in Southern California uh actually not too far away from Steve I'm in Imperial Beach the most Southwest Le City in the continental United States I have to say that because Hawaii technically has the most southern southwesterly city and with all that said uh my focus simply is to raise my family in a way that they love the word of God they love God and they want to serve him be an impact in my community work hard play hard and bless hard those are like the three things I I like to live by and uh audience I want you to know that I'm actually gon to be standing up for almost three hours plus so if I move around in the chat feel free to tell Donnie hey make sure uh SoCal press and stand still but anyways uh ladies and gentlemen I'm excited for this discussion and um looking forward to uh hopefully blessing each and and every one of you thank you David I uh appreciate the introduction uh both of you are no stranger to debates nor strangers to this topic and so this is an important topic we have a couple of Brothers here uh coming to engage many important subtopics and so I do want to briefly cover tonight's format just so our audience knows what's going on tonight it is going to be comprehensive and it's going to be a little different than our typical formal debates and I am going to make sure that that it's organized and that we are engaging each of of the relevant topics and so the subtopics we're going to be focusing on are the land promises so that's the first one we're going to be getting into land promises fulfilled or unfulfilled then we're going to uh Engage The question is Jesus the only seed or the descendants of Abraham are they the seed too uh topic three will be Galatians 4 28-31 veres 28-31 are the Jews the Flesh and then we'll be uh interacting with the question who is the Israel of God the true Israel of God and uh topic five what does all Israel shall be saved mean and then we'll be wrapping up the formal part of tonight's event with the question will there be a future Temple so all very important questions and uh David and Steve have put a lot of time in into studying these issues so this will be a debate to to remember I can guarantee that now what we're going to be doing for each topic is five minute openings for each and we're going to focus on one at a time though one Topic at a time we want to keep it as focused as possible then we're going to jump right into roughly 10 to 15 minutes of open discussion rather than real strict cross exam it's going to be more free flowing and again that'll be after each opening statement pertaining to these topics then we'll wrap up the entire formal aspect or portion of tonight's event with five minute closing statements where Steve and David can wrap up their thoughts and points and then we're going to interact with our awesome audience for a little bit we're g to uh engage your questions for about 25 minutes and so please if you do have a question on tonight's topic the topic again being Israel what is God's plan for Israel and really just all things dispensationalism please make sure you're uh tagging me with your questions uh the best way that I don't miss them tag me at either uh standing for truth or or Donnie and so with that we're just gonna get right into our first topic uh Steve and David again I appreciate the time you've given for tonight's debate topic one the land promises fulfilled or unfulfilled in David you're going to be kicking us off so you got you got the first five minutes go ahead all right can you go full screen thank you darnie all right one second before I start my timer let me get a nice sip of water all right sorry about that audience okay and timer is on we're gonna get right into it we're uh no pleasantries or anything like that I'll save that to the end but the question at hand is were the land promises fulfilled I'm going to spend a lot of time reading scripture or at least five minutes and hopefully I'll be able to answer that question by mostly using scripture so the focus verse is Genesis 15 or verse is is 18- 21 and and allow me to read them in the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram saying unto thy seed have I given this land from the river of Egypt unto the Great River the river Euphrates the kenites and the Kites and the the cites and the Hittites and the pites and the refm and the amorites and the Canaanites and the gites and the jebusites Genesis 151 18-21 that is essentially what we're focusing on in this question whether or not that was fulfilled and what does that actually mean if it when it comes to fulfillment in Genesis 178 it makes it very clear that this Covenant was to be forever and I will give unto thee and to thy seed after thee the land wherein thou art a stranger all the land of Canaan for an everlasting possession and I will be their God Genesis 28:13 and behold the Lord stood above it and said I am the Lord God of Abraham thy father and the god of Isaac the land whereon thou liest to thee will I give it and to thy seed Deuteronomy 328 says something very interesting and and this listen to this audience when the most high divided to the Nations their inheritance when he separated the sons of Adam and he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel here's why this verse is extremely important because it makes it very clear that prior to Israel's formation God already had a plan to set them in a specific boundary to ezras 655 takes a hold of this and says this all this have I spoken before thee Oh Lord because thou mest the world for our sakes that's speaking of the nation of Israel to Ezra 6:59 says if the world now be made for our sakes why do we why do we not possess an inheritance with the world how long shall the endur Exodus 32:13 says remember Abraham Isaac and Israel thy servants to whom thou swearest by thine own self and set us unto them I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed and they shall inherit it forever Psalm 37:29 says the righteous shall inherit the land and dwell therein forever Psalms 105 ver10 says and confirm the same unto Jacob for a law and to Israel for an Everlasting Covenant speaking of the land 2 ezras 3:15 says and made us an Everlasting Covenant with him promising him that thou wouldest never forsake his seed speaking of Israel baroo 235 says and I will make an Everlasting Covenant with them to be their God and they shall be my people and I will no more drive my people of Israel out of the land that I have given them Lamentations 4:22 says the punishment of thy iniquity is accomplished oh Daughter of Zion he will no more carry away into captivity he will visit thine iniquity oh daughter of Edom he will discover thy sins Matthew 81 says this I say unto you that many shall come from the East and West and shall sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven and I'll conclude with five major points that I think are extremely relevant to this topic first things first Israel never possess the land all the way to the river of Egypt and I'll get into that in in our discussion and I'll read First Kings 4:25 and Judah and Israel dwelt safely every man under his Vine and under his fig tree from Dan even un even unto berseba berseba to Dan um Israel was never to to have possession Israel sorry Israel was to have possession of the land forever I read in Genesis 178 Israel never possessed all the land of the Hittites First Kings 4:25 makes it very clear and Judah and Israel dwelt safely every man under his Vine and under his fig tree from Dan even to BBA all the days of Solomon Israel never drove out all their enemy Joshua 3:10 makes this listen to Joshua 310 it says and Joshua said hereby ye shall know that the Living God is among you and he will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the hivites and the perizzites and the girgashites amorites and jebusites now compare that to I'm almost done compare that to First Kings 9 chapter 9 20-21 quote and all the people that were left of the amorites the Hittites pites hivites and jebusites and were not of the children their children that were left after them in the land whom the children of Israel also were not able to utterly to destroy upon those as Solomon Levi at tribute and bond service this day and lastly I believe the apostles expected the kingdom to appear we learn of that in Acts 1:6 and then also uh prec crucifixion in Luke 1911 ladies and gentlemen that is why I believe that the land promises have not been fulfilled and that they are Eternal thank you okay David thank you for that first five minute opening statement on topic number one Steve we're going to hand it over to you now whenever you're ready you also have five minutes the floor is in just make sure to unmute when you're ready to talk and the floor is yours all right well of course I believe that the lamb promises have been fulfilled uh when we think about fulfilled promises we have to realize that the Bible teaches that Jesus is the Fulfillment of the promises God made to Israel Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and the prophets and that not one jot or tit would pass until it was all fulfilled since lots of the law has passed we have to assume that it all has been fulfilled and uh yet the Fulfillment of promises in the Old Testament have often um three possible ways of being fulfilled one is they are fulfilled just unilaterally just because it happens the way it was promised another is that they are fulfilled spiritually in the New Covenant and then the third is that they are not fulfilled at all because they are conditional and the conditions were not met all the promises God made to Israel fall into one or more of those conditions I believe when it comes to um the land promises in particular God did fulfill them to Israel but the spiritual fulfillment is also found in Christ as the New Testament teaches um we have the testimony of Joshua about this Joshua is the one who led the Israelites to conquer the land in Joshua 21 verses 43- 45 it says so the lord gave to Israel all the land of which he had sworn to give their fathers and they took possession of it and dwelt in it the lord gave them rest all around according to all that he had sworn to their fathers and not a man of all their enemies stood against them the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand not a word failed of any good thing which the Lord had spoken to the house of Israel all came to pass now I don't know how it could be more emphatic God gave them all the land that he'd sworn to give them they took possession of it and dwelt in it sounds like that's fulfillment it says not a word failed of any good thing which the Lord had spoken to the house of Israel it all came to pass so on the basis of actual scripture statements I would say yeah yeah he did fulfill his promise and gave them the land now some of the things that David said uh might be taken to be inconsistent with that claim but there is no place in the Bible that says God did not give them all the land so I'm going to go with the statement that the Bible actually makes that he did give them the land now uh to say um as was said here that uh you know some of the Hittites and so forth were not driven out well that's true that's true I mean uh not all the American Indians have been driven out of North America but that would be ridiculous to say that the the European settlers have not taken this whole land uh it is under our control we do allow some of the original inhabitants to live here and uh Israel allowed Hittites to live there although they should have driven them out it's true they didn't do that but that was on them God gave them the land and they allowed some of the Hittites and others to live there so that's just the way it is but if one wants to argue that that hasn't been fulfilled then one would have to say then what the Canaanites are going be driven out of the land in the future the jebusites the Hittites the perizzites the ammonites I mean whatever amorites uh those people don't exist anymore those are extinct peoples so either it happened in biblical times or it's not going to happen but the Bible says it did happen in biblical times and so I'll go with that now I don't put a lot of stock in uh the book of second ezras it's not in my Bible um but if it says in second ezras that God made the world for Israel I'm not seeing it uh it says in psalm 115: 16 the heaven even the heavens are the Lords but the Earth he has given to the sons of men it doesn't say the sons of Israel but the sons of men and we saw that in Genesis chapter 1 long before there was an Israel God made man and woman and gave them dominion over all the Earth and that God had made so uh you know it's whatever an apocryphal book written in the inter Testament period may say to the contrary it's mankind not not specifically Israel that God made the world for uh it says in Romans chapter 4 and verse 13 that the promise to Abraham and his seed that they'd be The Heirs of the world it's interesting it mentions that they'd be The Heirs of the world the world is not a reference usually to Israel but to the planet Earth or the whole the whole inhabited world and so the Bible does indicate that God uh promised Abraham and his seed they inherit the world now we're going to be talking in a moment about who is Abraham's seed uh and I believe Abraham seed is Christ and those who are in Christ as Paul says so that'd be my position on this I'm GNA yield the rest of my time Steve I appreciate it uh gentlemen great job answering a a challenging question or a question that could probably we could do a whole debate on in just five minutes so David Steve I do appreciate it now we're going to transition into a roughly 10 to 15 minute open discussion on what has been said so far again reminder topic number one the land promises fulfilled or unfulfilled since Steve just ended with his five minute opening argument on that topic David let's allow you to uh start us off with the discussion go ahead great Steve thank you very much much appreciated so behind me is uh you know a kind of a 15th century rendition of the Middle East and the Mediterranean area uh including what we is modern day Turkey I say that because it's you know it's kind of like a hey you kind of get the point it's it's not a masterpiece but here's uh what I wanted to ask you is as far as the the land do you believe that uh as far as let me see here as far as the land promised let say in Joshua in Joshua 21 um did Joshua conquer all the way to the river of Egypt and did he conquer all the way up to the hittite Empire I don't know that Joshua did all of that in his lifetime but there it is said that God gave them all the land and they dwelt in it so I mean all the land I think would suggest all the pro it says all the land that God promised I will say this that in uh Solomon's day he ruled over that whole region and he was the king of Israel so if he reigned over it it was obviously in the hands of Israel it says in First Kings 4:21 so Solomon reigned over all the kingdoms from the rivie frates to the land of the Philistines as far as the border of Egypt they brought tribute and served Solomon all the days of his life now people don't bring tribute to a King unless he's conquered them and uh so if if I don't know if Joshua conquered all that territory but if he did not at least it was conquered by the days of Solomon and uh so that's the children of Israel controlling that okay so sounds like you don't believe it's a hyp you you don't you don't believe it's a hyperbolic statement in other words that when he says all he he's talking about all with exception or all without exception well I mean uh you know I believe it's all he says everything that God promised came true not one thing failed it says it all came to pass so it's pretty emphatic I mean sometimes the word all is a hyperb but okay usually when it's emphasized again every single thing happens just the way God promised it I say that's without exception but I also just mentioned Solomon's actual boundaries which are the boundaries that were promised Abraham are named in First Kings 4:21 is you know he reigned over that area well let me let me uh let me kind of push back on that so you you mentioned First Kings chapter 4: 21 but if we keep reading I think it's very clear we kind of get fully on on what uh First Kings was trying to communicate to us and it's this I want to get your thoughts on this and Judah and Israel dwelt safely every man under his Vine and under his fig tree from even to berseba and Dan okay and then one all the days of Solomon okay and then I'll read one more and this is moving on in the book First Kings 9:20 through 21 all the people that were left of the amorites Hittites pites perizzites excuse me hivites and jebusites which were not of the children of Israel their children that were left after them in the land whom the children of Israel also were not able to utterly destroy upon those is Solomon Levy attribute a bond service unto the St so you mentioned that part yes but in verse 25 of chapter 4 it makes it very clear defines the Border be Sheba to Dan and my understanding is the river jip is is over here and the hitti kingdom is up here the river of Egypt I think you're mistaken for the Nile most Scholars believe that's talk about the W of Egypt which uh actually is not not I put it so what I did is I so the audience can kind of see I put it right here I guess so you're familiar and I think when you're talking about most Scholars you're talking about most like today um when I studied uh some like for example in the target of Jonathan when I look back and I looked at some of the Jewish ancient commentaries um they they they believe it's here the not the river now but yes I will grant you yes there there is a possibility that this W or which most of the time of the year it's dry so you think when it says River of Egypt you're saying it's right here and this is in audience this is actually where it is because when the boundaries are given in promise the North and the South and the East and the West are mentioned generally speaking the Jordan River is the eastern boundary the Mediterranean is the western boundary your Euphrates is the northern and the river of Egypt is the southern now uh yeah uh the Nile is runs north and south it can't make a southern border it doesn't run east and west like the body does so as far so what you what you contend is that and going against you mention most Scholars but going against those who are direct descendants of these people and who've been studying and and carrying carrying their Traditions which they believe is actually the river now so you contend that it's what today is actually a very small small dry rivered correct yeah that's been the boundary of Israel for the most part yeah and so when so then would it be okay then to say that it's from beers Sheba to Dan because that's the way uh verse 25 tells us that's where the 12 tribes settled you're right but God gave them the whole territory up to the Euphrates as we see because they gave tribute to Solomon so they had control over that whole area okay so I don't think Israel I don't think Israel had sufficient population to fill that whole area but God gave it to them anyway okay so let's let me go real quick let me go back to what I believe is a hyperbolic statement and that's in Joshua and you quoted it so it's Joshua chapter 21 and we'll start in verse 43 and the lord gave unto Israel all the land which uh um sorry gave all to gave all the land which he swear to give unto their fathers and they possessed it and dwelt there in okay so that's during the Joshua's time period but then when we move forward in judges and judges chap 2: 23 it says therefore the Lord left those Nations without driving them out hastily neither delivered he them into the handed Joshua and then in verse and in chapter three verse one it says now these are the Nations which the Lord left to prove Israel by them even as many of Israel as had not known all the wars of Canaan do you at least see why one I see it's a hyperbolic statement in Joshua chapter 21 and then two that the idea that all the land okay which I believe extends from here and even up higher than which most maybe you think I think all up here that I'm thinking that really what what God is trying to express to us is that he took from here to from Dan to be Sheba stated in verse 25 yeah I'm not I'm not concerned about where the boundaries are I'm concerned about the fact that the Bible affirms that God fulfilled his land promises to them okay well I mean I I just wanted to jump in David and it's going great we just hit the seven minute mark on the 15minute disc discussion uh it it seems like David you've been Leading The Way with most questions I know it's more free flowing but I did want to give Steve the opportunity in case he had some questions as well sure um David mentioned that this land was given them for forever and ever you know and he did not seem to think it was conditional uh well I don't believe there are any unconditional promises made to Israel and uh we have actually statements that God made through Moses that it is conditional in Leviticus 18: 24-29 excuse me 28 God saido not defile yourselves with any of these things for by all these things the Nations meaning the Canaanites are defiled which I am casting out before you for the land is defiled therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it and the land vomits out its inhabitants you shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments and shall not commit any of these Abominations either any of your own Nation or the stranger who dwells among you for all these Abominations the men of the land have done who were before you and the land is defiled lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it as it vomited out the Nations that were before you now he said the things that were done by the Canaanites caused the land to vomit them out and God said if Israel does same things the land will vomit them out too it doesn't sound like they're that they have some unconditional Grant likewise it says in Leviticus 25:23 God said the land shall not be sold permanently for the land is mine for you are strangers and sojourners with me in other words this isn't your land it's my land God said and you need to meet my conditions you're my strangers you're strangers are my land now most important of all is Deuteronomy 28 where you know the conditions for the blessings that God gave Israel are listed I'll just give you two of these verses it's a long chapter in Deuteronomy 28:15 God said but if shall come to pass if you do not obey the voice of the Lord your God to observe carefully all his Commandments and his statutes which I command you today that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you then he lists a bunch of them and in verse 63 he says and it shall be that just as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing and you should be plucked off the land that you go to possess so if you don't keep the Covenant you'll be plucked off the land the land will vomit you out like it vomit out the Canaanites it's not your mine God but we we can agree though that they were plucked out and then they were brought back in correct right but they're plucked off again and they were never brought back so I think that's where we disagree and then thankfully we're going to be discussing that in our next questions okay so do you have a question or any because uh like anything that you just from from what you just read any any questions what what do you think the future fulfillment is of these land promises apparently you believe there is they're not fulfilled and that they will be what do you think it'll be yeah well because because like I you know I quoted um let me see here um let's let's just say Genesis 178 it says and I will give unto thee and to thy seed after thee the land wherein thou art a stranger and all the land of the of of Canaan for an everlasting possession and I will be their God so I think that that clearly demonstrates it's not conditional and and we will get into this item so and Steve we will get into especially when we talk to we get into uh Romans 11:26 so to answer your question I so I believe ultimately the land that are supposed to to possess is from the River Nile to the uh to the edge of the Euphrates up to the top of of Euphrates which coincidentally enough is not far away from out erat which is very close and then we still haven't hit the hittite I also think as a side note that it's this is also very very strategic uh if you were just to look at it from a strategic perspective to be able to take that if we were to say well it's this little dry bed River literally I mean it's I mean I put blue there but it's actually all dry right now uh and and to think that that was actually the the um the the river that Jesus was or the river that God was telling Abraham about I'm a little uh um I'm a little skeptical on that so that's really what I believe where the land is believe if you believe the Nile is the river that's the boundary then you believe the entire uh Eastern side of the Nile all of Egypt on that Eastern side of the Nile is should belong to Israel well I just believe what the Bible says it it says I'm trying to figure out that's what I'm trying to figure out the runs north and south so part of Egypt is east of it that's that's the same side of it that Israel's on so are you saying that that's the uh western boundary of Israel's land no I'm not and and I understand what the what how the Bible talks about the western boundary being the great sea but I also understand that if we take the River Nile into this it kind of makes sense because especially when you understand the Exodus it makes it very clear that when the Israelites left left Egypt it specifically says they left Egypt and went into the Red Sea and I believe Mount siani is right here so this also helps us give an understanding of when it talks about in First Kings chapter nine the border of Egypt I think the border of Egypt and when you look at this historically and you look at all the scholars they're going to agree the border of Egypt was right here but that was then and that was during the conquest during that time so I think if you look at history you look at geography it really tends to point to I believe that um Joshua is more of a hyperbolic statement and in fact Israel is going to possess a lot more land and it makes sense strategically too well I I mean obviously you can say that and I can say I don't think it is so we're at a stalemate there I guess yeah and I understand we only got a few minutes left so let me let me go ahead and um so just just to be clear in got two minutes exactly till topic yeah so just just to be clear and I'll I'll let I'll let you I'll let you end it Steve on this but I'll read it again in Genesis 178 I think this really I think this disagrees with your point of view and I'll just read it says and I will give unto thee and to thy seed after thee the land wherein thou art a stranger all the land of Canaan for an everlasting possession and I will be their God so Everlasting possession comments and you said that sounds unconditional to you let me read what Jeremiah said in Jeremiah 18 verses 7-10 God said this the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom to pluck it up to pull it down and to destroy it if that Nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil I will repent of the disaster that I thought I'd bring upon it and the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom to build and to plant it if it does evil in my sight so that it does not obey my voice then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit so God said any time he pron pronounces Doom whether he mentions conditions or not if the people repent he'll turn around Nineveh was a good example of that in the time of Jonah but he says anytime he promises to build and plant and bless a nation now there's only one nation he ever made that promise to and that was Israel he said if they turn and do evil he's going to repent of all the good he said he was going to do to him so there's no unconditional promises here even if not so then when he says for an everlasting possession you're basically saying that God changed his mind about that statement no I'm saying it's conditional he said it's conditional when I when when a couple makes vows they say they will stay together as long as they both shall live but that's conditional if one of them runs away with someone else well then that changes things the Covenant requires participation by both sides and God says any nation that I promise to bless if they do evil I'll repent of the blessing I said I given gentlemen fair enough okay very good excellent first uh 15 minute discussion on topic number one very edifying and we're now going to move into topic number two and so topic two is Jesus the only seed or are the descendants of Abraham the seed too David we're going to throw it back to you five minutes go ahead all right give me a second give me a second I'm gonna ask you to pull up my slides in just a second but not yet Donnie okay not yet all right let's do this five minutes so I the verse that that we're probably most likely gonna focus on is uh Galatians chap 3:1 16 and it says this now to Abraham and his seed where the promises made he saith and to seeds as of many but as of one and to thy seed which is Christ so usually when someone is trying to point out that hey Israel is no longer the seed the the seed is Jesus Christ he's taken over he supplanted um superseded uh Israel as being the seed and now Jesus is is the seed usually this is the verse that that is usually pointed out and and I want to challenge any of you that believe that uh this verse is trying to talk about supplant supplanting or superseding uh the nation of Israel and replacing them with Jesus Christ and I'll and I'll and I'll explain to you why here's the thing that I usually ask people when we come to this verse what verse is Paul quoting generally in your bibles if you have a Bible has cross references usually they'll give you uh Genesis 12 or or gave you Genesis 177 well I believe that both those location both those chapters is what not is not what Paul had in mind but rather that he had Genesis 21 in mind and I'll read Genesis 2112 and God said unto Abraham and this is very very relevant to this conversation and God said unto Abraham let it not be Grievous in thy sight because of the lad and because of the thy Bond woman and all that Sarah has said unto thee hearken unto her voice for an Isaac shall thy seed be called and I personally believe that's the verse that Paul's quoting in Genesis 12 the word there used for seed it's indefinite in Genesis 17:7 the word is plural but in Genesis 21:12 it's singular and by the way I will concede that the word seed can be used for Jesus only Jesus and also it can be used corporately for Israel Donnie can you pull up my slides real quick please and just go yeah that's fine cool all right so uh up here I have a a snippet of bullying jur companion Bible this is on page 29 of His companion Bible it's a note on Genesis 2112 and if you don't know who ew Binger is uh ew buinger was a scholar of Scholars he um was not professionally trained yet he wrote and he actually I believe he authored a lexicon on the Greek language uh he also wrote a very popular book um about um figures of speech so highly highly credible uh person to reach out to in regards to the subject and this is what he says in regards to verse 12 which I which I quoted earlier Isaac thy seed here Zarah is in the singular sense because of the word Isaac and because of the singular verb it shall be called Zar is a collective noun like English sheep but the context must determine whether it is singular or plural it is to this verse Galatians 3:16 refers not to 127 which is Genesis and where it is indefinite or 177 where the verb and pronoun show it is plural C note there and on Galatians 3:16 and chapter Romans uh cross prence sorry um Romans 9:7 Hebrews 11:18 where quote thy seed is therefore Christ the difference of the 30 years comes in here four and 30 years to Exodus and I'm going to illustrate this everyone uh from Genesis 12:4 when Abraham was 75 25 then to Isaac's burst and now five to his recognition as the seed 30 years later that was a lot so give me a second I'm going to try to illustrate that um I'm going to skip that uh I'm just going to go right into this real quick Johnny go on the full screen I got a minute left I'm going to go ahead and end it on this one um no full screen on the the slide my apologies yeah go full screen so people can see I want to make sure the audience can see this so what I did is I I simply just Illustrated what I just read to you the key thing that's that we need to understand is we have to understand what's the purpose of the 4 430 years Paul specifically mentions this in Galatians 3:17 acts 7 the mo one of the most underrated speeches in the New Testament the speech of Stephen before he's he's martyred he references this 430 years and it's very key in this in understanding the future of Israel now interestingly enough in Galatians 3:16 Paul brings up the 400 years event and he connects it with Romans 9 and he connects sorry with with Genesis 12:21 it's also quoted again in Romans 9:7 and interesting enough Stephen in the next verse from 75 to 76 makes it he he points out the foreign years in mention this you can come back to me Donnie so here's what I'm saying with all that Donnie you can come back to me all right so here's what I'm saying with all that you have to understand that in Galatians 3:16 it's singular yes we know that but what verse is it quoting Genesis 12:20 2112 when we understand the 430 years and the 400 years we're going to clearly see that the seed that's being spoken of in Galatians 3:16 did not in any way supersede the seed mention and uh Genesis 12 and Genesis 17 thank you okay thank you David for that five minute opening argument on topic number two Steve we're now going to hand it over to you and whenever you're ready you also have five minutes go ahead okay here we go all right uh well of course we are talking about Galatians 3:16 and I'll read it again now to Abraham and his seed were the promises is plural made he does not say and to seeds as of many but as of one and to your seed who is Christ and if you are Christ he says in verse 29 then you are Abraham's seed and HS according to the promise now Paul says the promises made Abraham and his seed he says promises he's not talking about one promise but the promises made Abram and his seed there were many I I believe he's thinking primarily of uh Genesis 121 through three which are the most important promises made they are Amplified and uh added to later on and repeated both to Isaac and to Jacob but but the promises are are the multiple promises that God made to Abraham including the land promise and all the other promises but especially that through his seed all the nations of the Earth would be blessed now Paul said it wasn't through your seeds plural it's through your seed as of One Singular and he said that is Christ now I don't care if in one passage in the Old Testament it uses the word seed singular and it means Isaac Paul says the seed s God is Christ so maybe Isaac is a type of Christ if you prefer but the point is Paul is making a statement for a reason he's saying when we're talking about the promises that are made to Abraham and his seed we need to know who they apply to they don't apply to the multiple seeds of Abraham like the Israelites they apply to the singular Seed of Abraham Christ now we might not like the way that Paul is using this we might say he's in playing fast and loose with the scripture uh I believe he's an inspired Apostle so I think he's telling the truth and uh for that reason I'll take what he says but there's no ambiguity about what he said he said the seed that the promis are made to is Christ he doesn't say it Ambiguously I'm afraid he can't twist that verse around much more and then in verse 29 after saying that Jews and Gentiles and male and female and bond or free are all one in Christ he says and if you are christs that is you're in that one then you are Abraham's seed singular because of course the body of Christ is one Paul does not see any distinction really between the organic Body of Christ and the head Jesus it's all one organism so when he speaks of Christ many times Paul is referring to the corporate Christ in in the body of Christ and that's what he says here it's Christ but if you're in Christ well then you're you're part of the one you're part of that one seed and you are The Heirs according to the promise now he made it very clear The Heirs of the promise are not those who are unbelieving Jews The Heirs of the promise are those who are christs who belong to Christ and he says if you meaning the Galatians who are mostly Gentiles though there are some Jews no doubt among them if you Christian Jews and Gentiles are you belong to Christ then you are the seed you are the hirs that the promises apply to I am I mean this is simply exod Jesus I don't you know we can talk about what you know we can speculate about what other passages Paul might have in mind from the Old Testament uh and and we can you know analyze those if you want to but I'd rather just analyze what Paul says because he whichever prom he says promises so he doesn't single it out just one promise and he does say that it's not to plural seeds it's to the one seed and if you are in Christ you are one whether you're Jew or Gentile Bond or free male or female you are one in Christ and in Christ you are Abram's seed and you are the Hees according to the promise uh of course um many of the promises are made to Israel later on apply to the remnant of Israel um but uh I mean we have to actually in each case look and see what's what's referred to in the promise or whatever but in the New Testament we see Paul singling out you know I mean he does say in 2 Corinthians 1 all the promises of God are yay and amen in Christ through us so all the promises of God are affirmed and yay and amen in Christ through us through US Christians and uh we are if we are in Christ we are his body We Are One in him and we are the seed the singular seed that he said uh the promises are made to and we're The Heirs according to the promise he said those are his actual words all right I'll yield thank you very much Steve for that five minute opening argument thanks to the both of you for your five minutes on topic number two we're now jumping into the discussion portion of topic number two David we'll hand it back to you and help kick us off with with this uh dialogue go ahead all right timer on Steve thank you what verse do you think Galatians 3:16 is quoting in the Old Testament well it's actually uh I I believe it's referring to all the promises of God that's why he said the pro to Abram and Seed were the promises made plural not just one so I believe the promises that God made to Abram and his seed are included and of course there's and there's several times when God says to your seed I mean sometimes that actual language is in the promises uh it's that exact language may not be in all the promises but he quotes uh a place where that that line can be found and say well you see the seed is s okay so that's that's what I'm trying to figure out is what verse do you think that is in in the Old Testament you mentioned actually Genesis 122 I believe so do you still believe that that's what verse he was quoting no he's not quoting one through three I the question is what verse is he talking about he quot he quotes a line that is found in several verses and he his statement is not just about that one line it's about the promises plural that God made to Abraham and his seed but here here's here's the thing though is he he says this he says verse six he now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made he he saith not and to seeds as of many but as of one so so he really makes it very clear he's like he said not plural but singular and so that's why I brought up that Genesis 12 is indefinite and then Genesis 17 is plural but Genesis 21 is singular yeah I I hly don't care about that all the promises of Abraham made to his him and his seed are made to Christ Paul says so that's fine with me so you said now okay I I he's quoting if he's quoting an actual line from Genesis 21 then that's where he gets that line but his statement is about the promises not promise the promises okay so then why is it that why is it that in verse 29 you said it yourself he says and if ye be Christ then are ye Abraham's seed and HS according to the promise he doesn't say promises well I mean the promise that uh that the Jews claim I mean I don't think Paul's I don't think Paul's being too particular about that what what promise do you think he's referring to in verse 29 great question Johnny can you show my slide obviously keep it still up together so here's what I here is what I believe Steve is I believe that what's happening is in Galatians 3:16 Paul is Paul's quoting not or he's directly quoting Genesis 2112 and the reason why he's doing that is because he's connecting it specifically with when when Isaac was persecuted by Ishmael and that's when it starts so the 400 years started there because remember it says what it what does it say in verse 16 um uh verse 17 and this I say the Covenant that was confirmed before of God in Christ the law this listen to this one which was 430 years now in Acts 75 it says this it says uh give me a second bear with me this is act 75 it says and he gave him none inheritance in it know not so much as to set his foot on yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession and to his seed okay after him when as yet he had no child and in verse six here's the key in verse seven chapter 7 of Acts and God spake on this wife that his seed to sojourn in a Strange Land and that they should bring them into bondage and in treat them evil for 400 years so Paul mentions 430 Stephen mentions 400 and what I'm trying to point out to the audience is that four and everybody is is 400 years Paul's referencing that in Galatians 3:16 but in Galatians 317 he's referencing the the 430 years so he's he's making a separation you could take that away Donnie he's making a separation is trying to get trying to get us to realize that he's talking about two different things and acts 7 made it very clear that that seed isn't Jesus Christ that seed is none other than the nation of Israel so that's that's the way I look at that verse well I know you do but but Paul said it is Jesus Christ so there I mean it's you against him I'll go with him no well let me say this I believe that is Jesus Christ I agree with most of what you said but what I don't believe is that Galatians 3 16 is a verse that can be used to sup suppl or supersede uh the nation of Israel and replace them as the seed that's my whole point what is Paul trying to say in in Galatians 3:16 then yeah so what he's saying he's he's extending back to at the abrahamic so he's actually like I said he's mentioning two events he's mentioning an event that happened 430 years before the law and he's mentioning an event that happened 400 years before the law also and that 400 year event was specifically in in Genesis 21 12 that if you look at that that's literally 400 years you can calculate it it's all there it's perfect the Bible's amazing it's beautiful but that's what I'm getting at is he's distinguishing the difference and so when he goes back to Abraham okay and you take a look at the This Promise in in in Galatians 3 verse um um in verse seven okay sorry verse three where is it at I forgive me um uh well anyways I don't want to waste time he makes it very clear that the that the Gentiles or the Heathen will be saved by faith and so he's distinguished that he's reaching back to the abrahamic Covenant to say hey look we got the law we got the Covenant that was made with the nation of Israel but then we got the Covenant was made with Abraham and within that abrahamic Covenant there are definitely subdivisions there's more than there's multiple things part of the Covenant but specifically what he's honing in on is that the Heathen will be saved by faith and that they will be saved through the seed and Isaac as we both agreed I think we'll agree that Isaac is a type of Christ which I believe Galatians 3 is saying what I don't believe he's saying and and the cool thing is is one of our next questions we're gonna go to go a little more deeper into this I don't believe he's saying that that this that this verse cannot be used to supersede the nation of Israel and replace them as the seed that's mentioned in uh Genesis 122 and and and Genesis 17 ver7 well I see you're arguing against something I don't say I never say that anyone was superseded um you know or replaced but you're a supersessionist so right right but what what that means is that the old Covenant was superseded by the New Covenant not that not that the church was superseded by is superseded Israel the church is Israel the Old Testament eia the Old Testament Ecclesia in the septent was the congregation of Israel Stephen in that speech you keep referring to in Acts 7 referred to Moses as the one who led the Ecclesia the church the church in the wilderness right exactly so Israel always was the church but we find throughout the prophets an emphasis on the fact that only the remnant of the of Israel is really God's people and that the apostate are not the apostate who the Earth opens and swallows or who God wipes out by the Assyrians or the Babylonians because of their bail worship they're not God's people Hosea said that Hosea chapter one writing to the northern kingdom says you're not my people you know that's why I named my kid not my no son of mine no kin of mine you're not my people he said to them so the apostate are not God's people the The Remnant are now the remnant have always been the true church and they still are they always were and when Jesus came the remnant followed Jesus on the day of Pentecost Spirit was poured out on them and uh and so the you know the Church of the Old Testament becomes the Church of the New Testament it's not replaced it's the same same group transition right through Paul talks about it as a woman who had two husbands the law and Christ in Romans chap 7 ver verses 1-4 he said that the marriage to the law is broken by by the death of Jesus and now we're married to another so it's the same woman the same people it's not a no people replaced other people the superseded okay well well you did your I'm using your words you well well wait no you you used the word supersede and replace both before I said a word about that that's why I'm speaking about it but the truth is I don't believe the church superseded anybody I believe the New Covenant our marriage to Christ has superseded our marriage to the law the old Covenant that's what superseded the Covenant if you don't believe the old Covenant has been superseded by the new then we're we're not going to have much Common Ground well we we obviously there where there there's going to be a lot of things we disagree that's why we're having this discussion uh so just understand that now when I brought up supersession or superseded because just basing that upon what what you've taught in your previous lessons so I understand you don't like the term like replac theology I've never replaced anything the old Covenant is replaced by the new I understand that I I what I'm what I'm getting at is I don't I don't want to I want to make sure I'm using the correct language when I'm speaking to you for example like I'm not going to say you're you you're a replacement Theologian I'm not what I'm getting at is using your terms like you're superseded and that's that's what I want you and the audience to understand I'm trying to respect I am a supersessionist but that doesn't mean that the church superseded Israel it means that Israel was once married to the to the law in the old Covenant Christ has come that Covenant has been nailed to the cross and now Israel is married to Christ a New Covenant the new COV the new marriage supercedes the old marriage but the woman is the same woman okay got it got it that's clear okay so then let me be very clear to you and the audience when even though it says the church in the wilderness Church like it's just an assembly there there are Church churches that are religious or non-religious it's it's an assembly of people so I believe that that the church you're referencing the church is being referenced in Acts simply it's the assembly it's not talking about the church which is his body which is not composed of Jew and Gentile so I believe there's a distinction as you know because I'm a dispensationalist you know that that's one of the key distinctions uh within dispensationalism so let me ask you this in you mentioned that that it seems as if that there's this apostate people that how could you think that these apostate people are are God's people well I'll tell you why and I want to get your thoughts on this in Matthew chapter 1 verse 21 it says and she shall bring forth a son and thou shalt call his name Jesus for he shall save his people from their sins so it's evidently clear that Jesus was coming the Messiah was coming to heal these apostate people who were none other than his people no no he didn't heal the apostate he healed The Remnant the faithful Remnant came to him and they were forgiven where does it say that in that verse though why do I have to say it in that verse there's other verses in the Bible besides that one but what the Bible says Jesus saved his people who whom did he save who is saved okay I gotta so but here's right the Disciples of Jesus are saved they're his people they were the remnant of Israel and he saved them the apostate the apostate were destroyed in 70 AD he didn't save them so when he said that or when the angel said that about Mary okay that you think that Mary was thinking about Gentiles or you think that she was thinking about her people like the nation of Israel what do you think Mary was thinking well first of all the statement was made to Joseph not to Mary and sorry Joseph yeah but the thing is that uh whatever Joseph may have been thinking we know what God was saving God G Jesus saved the people that were the faithful remnant of Israel is that easy I Mary and Joseph were of that faithful remnant of Israel uh probably their parents were too who knows John John the Baptist parents were Simeon was Anna was there were lots of the remnant of Israel uh and they came to Christ be and that's what that's how we know they're The Remnant they were faithful the faithful all come to christs sounds though like often times in script he describes his his people as as people who are POS people who are living in sin am am I reading that wrong where are you talking about well let's see here um let's see here uh I'm gonna get uh if we take a look at the book of Hebrews I'm trying to find some right now okay let's go to um Hebrews 7 verse 27 who needeth not daily as those High priests to to offer up sacrifices first for his own sins and then for the for the peoples for this he did once when he offered up himself and the book of Hebrews is written in Hebrews so throughout Hebrews I see a lot of it talking about hey I I died for you like I paid for your sins and and this people he's talking about is is an apostate people well the entire New Testament with a few exceptions was written before 70 AD and the people who did not come to the people who came to Christ escaped that Holocaust they left and we're not destroyed in it we know that from what uus tells us the rest of the Jews who rejected Christ were wiped out so they didn't get saved okay so a as always God's people are those who are faithful to him and those who are faithful to God when Jesus came they came to Jesus Jesus spoke about it that way and when he prayed in John 176 he says about the disciples he says I've manifested your name to the people that you've given to me they were yours and you gave them to me okay the ones that were gods were the ones that God gave to Jesus which is the disciples they were I got one more question I got one more question Stephen I'm done with my questions if you have any hit me up and and so my understanding is that you don't believe after the cross that uh the Jews are no longer the Covenant people after the cross correct right the New Covenant sub you know replaces the old Covenant yeah so let me read this one this is after the cross this is Acts chapter 3 uh and and I'll start in verse 25 this is Peter ye are the children of the prophets and in the Covenant which God made with our fathers saying unto Abraham and in thy seed shall all the kings of the earth be blessed this is after the cross Peter specifically just contradicted what you what you said he said ye are the children of the prophets and of the Covenant right they are the children of the prophets and of the Covenant was made and he was speaking to the apostate Jews and David I want to give Steve the last word now Steve take your time to respond then we'll move on to topic go ahead yeah uh the Jews of that generation their parents and their ancestors were the prophets who had had the Covenant and these were the children of that but uh but there was a New Covenant that had just been started a couple weeks earlier a few weeks earlier a couple months earlier and he's calling them to acknowledge that and they're not going to be saved if they don't acknowledge it I I I don't think you believe that Jews are saved without Christ do you no I mean well if it's like a six-year-old Jew who's never heard of The Gospel or anything and he dies of course I believe he's going to heaven but as far as same thing with a six-year old Gentile yeah yeah so I mean to answer your question as an adult knowledgeable Jew If he if he has not trusted Christ uh in the death B and Resurrection he's goingon to go to hell just as fast as anybody right so in other words Jews and Gentiles are just alike in that respect yes okay gentlemen excellent back and forth on topic to very fast-paced and a lot of positive feedback from from the the audience they're really enjoying this uh very focused format and so okay we got topic three now Galatians 4: 28 to 31 are the Jews the flesh what I'd like to do for uh topic three now David will still start with you then we'll have Steve give his five minute response then for the discussion we'll let Steve leave leave the way just to keep it as balanced as possible in terms of questions asked okay David over to you five minutes floor is yours all right one second D let me get the timer started and start okay so the verse that we're going to be focusing on or verses or the verses found in the end of Galatians chapter 4 so Donnie if you can go to full screen real quick I'm going to get I'm going to tell you what I believe ultimately I'm and then I'm going to go through the scripture and we're going to kind of look at it one by one first off I believe that agar equals the law Moses I believe or Hagar I believe also that the law Moses's bondage period and and I believe that the Jews even the Jews who followed the law of Moses considered it bondage too um believe it or not and I can prove that um but anyways Ishmael I believe persecuted his brother remember how I pointed that out and Paul pointed out that uh in Galatians chapter 3 verse 16-1 17 and in Acts chapter uh 7 five and six we learn about the 430 years versus the 400 years and those 400 years is when that persecution started and so it's key to understand that ladies and gentlemen here's the thing I want you to real quick understand let's just take a side step real quick we can't you this a we're having a conversation about a book that was written by multiple authors over a span of 1500 years this is amazing that we can even have this type of conversation you couldn't have this conversation if if if we didn't actually have the words of the Living God so just think about that if you have a scoffer friend out there you can't do this with the other books you can't you just cannot so that's a side note let me step back into my lane sorry I just want to express that all right anyways the law of Moses persecuted Israel and uh it brought bondage and death okay and so uh when it says even so now I'm going to talk about that that that has to do with that the J Galatians what they were doing is they were persecuting themselves they were bringing bondage they're putting themselves under bondage because uh they went back to the law of Moses also I ultimately I think the the flesh is the law not the Jews not the Jews all right you could go off full screen you can just go on if you can just go on me Donnie that'd be cool got cool we're doing we're doing good on time so pull your Bibles out Galatians chapter 3 and I'm going to read uh starting in verse 24 and and and it's actually I'll start in verse uh I'll start in verse 22 um not 21 tell me ye that desire to be under the law that's key do ye not hear the law for it is written uh that Abraham that Abraham had two sons the one by a Bond woman and the other by a free woman but but sorry I don't have my glasses on but he who was of the Bond woman was born after the flesh but he of the free woman was by promise or you'll see later on by the spirit or by faith which things are an allegory for these are the two covenants the one from the Mount Si which gendereth to bondage excuse me which is agar for this AAR is Mount Si in Arabia and anth Arabia right here ladies and gentlemen right there uh and anth to Jerusalem which now is and is in bondage with her children for Jerusalem which is above is free which is the mother of us all for it is written Rejoice thou Barren and th bearest not break forth and cry that thou travail us not for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband now we Brethren as Isaac was are the children of promise that is they are the children of Faith they are regenerated by the Holy Ghost and I'll show that in just a second but as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the spirit that's when Isaac the 400 years started when the persecution started 400 years after that that's when they were freed and they left Egypt and they crossed the Red Sea and they went away now here's here's the thing um even so it is now usually that expression is used to prove that the Jews are just like they were in the old days like ishma they're persecuting us like they were being persecuted for those they might not say 400 years but that's what they're referencing back and I'll close with this give me a second um nevertheless what saith the scripture cast out the Bond woman and her son for the son of the Bond woman shall not be Heir with the son of the free woman so then brethren we are but children of the Bond woman but of free and here's the last verse I I I'll finish with verse one of chapter 5 Stand Fast therefore therefore go back to what he just read in the Liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free and be not entangled again with the Yoke of bondage that ladies and gentlemen is what I believe Paul is focusing on and referencing when he's talking about Ishmael and um persecuting even so as is is now thank you okay David thank you for that first five minute opening response to topic three Galatians 4 28-31 are the Jews the flesh Steve we're now going to hand it over to you and whenever you're ready the floor is yours for five minutes go ahead all right thank you very much well let's uh I I was kind of confused by what was asked by the question are the Jews the flesh uh in in this section the flesh is not really identified but the children of the flesh are distinguished from the children of the promise and this is something Paul also does in Romans there are two kinds of children of Abraham he says there are those that are the children of the Flesh and there are those who are the children of the promise he says this in gal Romans 9 6-8 well just seven and eight says nor are they all children because they are the Seed of Abraham but quote in Isaac your seed shall be called that is those who are the children of the flesh these are not the children of God but the children of the promise are counted as the seed so Paul distinguishes between two kinds of children of Abraham those that are the children of the flesh meaning they have nothing but physical descent from Abraham and those who are children of the promise that is they they exist as children of Abraham only because of a supernatural intervention by God in fulfillment of a promise like Isaac Isaac was not able to be born naturally uh but he was supernaturally produced as a child of Abram because there was a promise that God would give him one ishmail was actually a child of the flesh that is mere fleshly sex between a man and a newb woman uh created a baby that doesn't that happens all the time now that's what he says in Romans nine he contrasts Children of the Flesh and Children of the promise he does so here too because in verse 28 of Galatians 4 he says now we Brethren as Isaac was are children of promise but the next verse says but as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted he who is born according to the spirit even so it is now now the the the one who was born according to the flesh was ishma and it is Contra ishma is the the the guy the the Prototype of those who are born only after the flesh now Paul indicates that in Romans nine that there are lots of Jews who are of the flesh descended from Abraham but they're not the children of the promise that's what he says in Romans 9:7 very plainly I just read and he so here he says in verse 22 it is written that Abram had two sons one by a Bond woman Hagar won by a free woman Sarah but he who was of a Bond woman was born according to the flesh okay so ishma was born according to the flesh just like many Jews are they're children of Abraham according to the Flesh in contrast to according to the promise he says uh and he of the free woman was through promise so he's the child of the promise which things are symbolic okay so what are the symbolic of David suggested that the mount Hagar represents the Law well that's pretty close to right he says it's the the old Covenant he said these these women are the two covenants these two covenants bear children and uh the the mount Hagar is Mount Si the Covenant there and the children of that Covenant are in bondage he means bondage to the law of course so just like ishmail a natural Seed of Abraham was born into bondage so the Jews who are of the old Covenant are in bondage too and their natural Seed of Abraham as well but he says the Jerusalem which is above and he says that corresponds to Jerusalem which now is there's the capital of the Jewish State the Jewish race in general uh you know they are part of the old Covenant they're children according to the flesh like ishma was then he says but the Jerusalem which is above is free which is the mother of us all now we know from other passages that the Jerusalem above is a reference to the New Covenant people now we see that of course in Hebrews I think it's chap 12:22 that we have come to mount Z to this city of the Living God to the Heavenly Jerusalem it says which it later goes on to call the General Assembly and Church of the firstborn who registered in heaven so uh the Heavenly Jerusalem is the community of the the New Covenant people the church as it says in Hebrews and then it says in verse 28 now we Brethren as Isaac was are children of the promise who's we Paul certainly was including his readers that's what you do when you say we his readers mostly Gentiles but he too you know the faithful Jew Paul and the faithful Gentiles we are like Isaac the children of the promise the ones that receive the promises as he said in chapter 3 in verse 29 if you belong to Christ you are Abram seed and The Heirs according to the promise so we're the children of the promise but he says the child of the flesh back then persecuted the child of the promise Ishmael persecuted Isaac he says so is it now what he's saying is the Jewish people are persecuting Paul and the church uh the Jewish people were the first persecutors of the church until the time that Rome took over that role so that's my understanding uh it is the Jews who are the children according to the flesh In this passage thank you very much Steve for that five minute response excellent timing and and fantastic job so far uh Steve and David I really appreciate this so now we're going to move into a 10 to 15 minute free flowing discussion on topic number three Steve I want to give you the opportunity to lead the way this time go ahead okay I'm interested annoying because David maybe didn't have enough time to say what he believes is meant by the children of the flesh persecute the children of the promise you seem to think the flesh is the law persecuting the Jews or something like that uh is this how you understand it and why yes that's that's how I understand it and because the reason is because when if I'm be consistent I believe with the rest the preceding verses in Galatians chapter 4 specifically from 21 down down to let's say 29 I think what's happening is we're getting a picture to that that this bondage is representative of Ishmael which he points to and even Stephen points points to so that's why I believe that the the son is none other than the law of Moses especially when we look at chapter 5 verse one well uh of course the old Covenant is part of the law is part of the old Covenant but he said that Hagar Mount Hagar represents the old Covenant he said the two women are two covenants yeah the law the law was part of the old Covenant there were promises too in the old Covenant the old Covenant had promises and it had stipulations as all covenants do uh and so you know the whole Old Testament we would say was the Hagar and the people of the Old Testament he says are in bondage and he says they correspond to Jerusalem which now is of course he's writing before Jerusalem was destroyed so it corresponds to this the state of Israel governed by Jerusalem are the people of the old Covenant but we are the people of the New Covenant of the free woman the free remember the free woman represents the second Covenant the two women represent two covenants he says and we are women we we are children of the second woman uh of the free woman so we're Children of the New Covenant uh now the New Covenant also has promises in fact it says in Hebrews chapter 8 better promises than the old Covenant but he says we well who who's we who are the children of the New Covenant well certainly his readers most of whom were Gentiles it was a primarily Gentile region that Paul evangelized there up in galatia and most the synagogues drove them out and most more Gentiles responded to his gospel than Jews so Jews and Gentiles together who have responded to Christ are the children of the free woman and the children of the promise okay so the verse then let's let's focus on on this end it goes back to your question verse 31 so then brethren we are not the children of the Bond woman but of the free so what what do you think that means it means we're Children of the New Covenant he's already said the two women represent two covenants and there are people who are children of those covenants that is people who are children of Abraham according to those two covenants they they are born into Abraham's family through one or the other now you mentioned that the old Church in the Old Testament that Ecclesia just means uh an assembly of any kind it's interesting that the septent refers to Israel as the Ecclesia and the early church took on that name for themselves they called themselves the church uh which was already in established use in the Old Testament for Israel but uh I would say this too you said well it's not the church which is made up of Jews and Gentiles in Christ well you're you're right the Old Testament uh didn't was not in Christ but it was Jews and Gentiles to be sure I mean you in Exodus chapter 12 we read that any Gentile who wanted to could be circumcised and be just like a native of the land and we know of Gentiles who did it's important to emphasize though what I said in full and I said the church which is his body that's right not so that that you have to add so people understand that it's the church with his his body is not composed of Jews and Gentiles so then when it says cast out the Bond woman and her son what does that mean and how do we do that because here's the thing if you're wait wait okay one sec so you admitted that or your belief is that the that the Jews are persecuting so this is how I read if I'm take your position Paul's saying hey but as then uh sorry but as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the spirit even so it is now so it's like okay wait a minute hey guys these Jews are persecuting you and then this is what he says in the next verse nevertheless what saith the scripture cast out the Bond woman and her son so I'm like if I'm a Jew during that time or Christian a Christian 2,000 years ago and Paul's saying that to me hey these are the Jews they're they're they're persecuting you cast them out like what does that mean because that actually I think actually that would that would influence one to be to physically cast him out because again ishma was physically cast out uh Paul does not instruct anyone to cast them out he said what did the scriptures say about the Bond woman and her son they would be cast out and would not be Heir with the children of the promise so Paul is not saying therefore you cast them out no he's just saying this was what actually is What Sarah Said to Abram cast him out but Paul quotes it favorably and says hey this is what's going to happen they're they are going to be cast out and they won't be heirs with the children of the of the promise I I take it as is giving them an instruction that that nevertheless we see the scripture cast out the Bond woman and her son for the Son and the Bond woman shall not be the be air with the son of the free woman so he's he's giving them instruction on what to do he's not no he's not he's quoting he's quoting instructions that were given to Abraham he's not saying you and he's not saying you need to cast them out how could you cast them out you can't do that but you no no he's pointing out that this language from that was between uh you know about is and Isaac was declaring that the son of the B would be cast out and that is of course true they were destroyed in ad70 and they did not inherit the promises as did the church so that verse doesn't have anything to do with 8070 if you read the next verse it makes it very clear Paul Paul Paul teaches it very clearly in the next verse so then so then brethren we are not children of the Bond woman but of the free and then the next verse makes it so so clear Stand Fast therefore in the Liberty where with Christ has made us free and be here's the key thing this is what cast out means right here and be not entangled again with the Yoke of bondage and so I think Paul makes it very clear he defines specifically what verse 30 is actually talking about don't be in bondage with the don't C do not be in bondage with the Yoke Let It Go move forward follow the promise of the spirit you have been saved because remember what he says in in in in chapter three he makes he sets the stage very clearly he says oh foolish Galatians who hath Bewitched you that ye should not obey the truth before whose eyes Jesus Christ has been evidently set forth crucified among you here's the key verse th this only what I learn of you received you the Spirit by The Works of the law or by the hearing of the faith and so when we see that progressing throughout the Book of Galatians it's evident that Paul's saying hey cast out the Bond woman the law Moses and you need to submit yourself to the Liberty that was given and in type as he mentions in in Galatians 3 Isaac which you quoted 97 by the way in Romans I want I want to jump in if you want to wrap it up in let's say five seconds and then I want to give Steve done equal okay Steve I feel like there's a lot there to be fair Steve take I don't think I don't think there's any basis for your interpretation I agree that Galatians from beginning to end is telling the Gentiles Believers that they do not have to keep the law in fact they shouldn't the law is written to I mean the book is written to counteract the judaizers who trying to put them under the law of course that's the message of the book but the the uh the dialogue or not the The Narrative about uh Abram's two sons is not equating um the law with the flesh the child children according to the flesh according to Paul in Romans are the Jewish people who are not of children of the promise and likewise here he who is born after the flesh is also here uh contrasted with Children of the promise it's what he's saying is the Jewish people who reject the Messiah are indeed cast out as it says he's not saying we are to do it he's not giving instructions to them he's saying what did the Bible say about this it says that the woman would be cast out and would not be Heir and he's already said that in chapter 3: 29 that that those who are in Christ are The Heirs according to the promise so so the the unsaved Jews would not be heirs to the promise and they weren't they're dead now all those Jews that were there they're dead now and they they didn't inherit the promises but they the the Christians did because and I and to be very clear I made it very clear that one righteous righteous Israelites would inherit the promises the Old Testament teaches that Judaism still teaches that today it taught it taught 2,000 years ago and I taught it 300 2,000 years before that so here you believe there are right Jews who don't receive Christ no I didn't say that what what I what I said they do receive Christ then they're Church they're in the church right yes of course okay so we're talking about the church okay you're talking about the church okay yeah yeah but but what I'm what I'm what I'm getting at is it's a little straw Manny because I'm not arguing what you just said what I'm what I'm saying is that yes though those who inherit the promise of the promise of the spirit the promise of Faith mentions in Galatians are those who receive Christ by faith I 100% that's the only way you're going to receive the promise of the Spirit by faith and only faith I read that in Galatians 3 so here's the question so you mention Romans 9:7 and and I've quoted this in the beginning Ro Romans Romans 9:7 specifically says because they are all the Seed of Abraham are they not all the children but in Isaac shall thy seed be called that's talking about Jesus Christ that's not that's not talking about uh the the nation of that's specifically focusing on on on Jesus Christ actually it's not it's not it's focusing on Isaac he's saying that people who are descended from Abraham are not all promised seed because Abram had ishmail he had six Sons by Hagar and he had Isaac and by quoting in Isaac your seed should be called meaning it's through Isaac that the seed would come the seed is Christ and he would come through Isaac he's pointing out that Isaac not the other seven children of Abraham uh was was the the seed of promise and that means that there were seven out of eight children of Abraham that were just Children of the Flesh and they accounted for nothing but Gentiles it's only the ones you know he's saying that not all physical descendants of Abraham have promises to them and he makes the same point when he goes to the next verse about even Isaac's children don't all have the promises one was Esau he didn't he didn't give the promises Jacob did the point he's making is being physically descended from Abraham doesn't guarantee anything to you it's you have to be a child of the promise then he and points out that those who are in Christ are the children of promise and that's where I'm saying in my opinion it's kind of straw maning because I agree with you nobody that's what I mentioned no ancient Jew okay that taught the Torah correctly would have ever thought that just because they're Israelites they're GNA somehow inherit the promises from what I've studied it's very clear those Leviticus 185 you got to have faith you got to keep the law of Moses and then you can enter the world to come if you don't do that you're you're not going to enter you're not going to inherit the world to come that is very clear the Jews Paul wrote to in Romans 2 did think that they thought they were better than the Gentiles and he said you say you shouldn't commit adultery do you commit adultery implying they do you say you shouldn't steal do you rob Idols or whatever I mean he's basically in Romans two he's pointing to the he says you call yourself a Jew and you boast in the law but he says you're no better than the Gentiles you do the same things they do the laws the word of God is blast because of you so apparently the Jews he's riding to there did think that they had special privilege even though they were breaking the law oh I don't I don't see that at all being taught there what I see clearly is that these Jews are relying on faith and works there's nothing about them thinking that well I'm a Jew so automatically I'm going to inherit the world to come I don't know of any ancient Judaism teachings that teach that so I think what's being taught in Romans I pa knew his audience I Paul knew his audience and he actually had been one of them he had been a Jew too Ste I have I've done a very great job of not interrupting you just give me one second um what I'm getting at is that Romans is focusing specifically on pointing out to the Jews that hey it's not faith in works anymore because we learn that in uh Romans 3:21 where it says but now the righteousness of God which is by faith but now so that's my opinion we're not here to debate Romans but in Galatians 3 and I think we're PR pretty much done in Galatians 3 what I what I ultimately think is this is that Paul is simply saying hey the law bondage which is which is a representation especially specifically Ishmael cast them out do not put yourself under the law you have been saved by faith and faith alone and it's through that you you've gained the spirit you did not gain the spirit through the law that's all I think he's doing and I think it's pretty consistent when you keep reading Galatians and then when you go to Romans which is a great commentary on book Galatians I think you're going to see that that's my opinion that's all I have to say go ahead Steve oh I you know I think I've said all the point I'm making is uh both places Romans 9 and Galatians uh chapter 4 Paul distinguishes between two kinds of children of Abraham those who are simply children after the flesh which just means physical descendants like isma and those who are the children of the promise which is those who have the faith of Abraham pa uh Jesus of course said to the Jews I know you are Abraham's descendants but if you're Abraham's children you would do the works of Abraham you're of your father the devil you want to do his works so I mean the the Jewish person isn't automatically a child of Abraham in any meaningful sense Jesus I know your descended from Abraham but you're not the children of Abraham because you don't do the works of Abraham so those children of Abraham who have the promises are those who are like Abraham who have the faith of Abraham Paul even says that in Galatians 3 he says only those who have the faith of Abraham are the children of Abraham so he's making it very clear there are many Jewish people physical Jews who don't have the faith of Abraham so they're not the children of Abraham he says they are John can I say one one sentence yes joh so the question is Galatians 4:28 through 31 are the Jews the Flesh and so again if we just focus on Galatians if we see what it says and we're consistent we're going to clearly see I believe that stand fast therefore in the Liberty where with Christ hath made us free and be not entangled again with the Yoke of bondage I do not in any way believe that Paul is calling his Jewish Brethren isites or even trying to link them up with isites I think the closest way he's doing it he's saying hey the law represents Ishmael and you guys are putting yourself under bondage just like they did uh you know 400 years before the law okay gentlemen we're moving along smoothly excellent job to the both of you I appreciate it we're now on topic four and so I'm really enjoying how Folk Fus this is and just how professional the both of you are I also want to remind the audience that once we are done with the formal portion of tonight's debate we will be interacting with your uh questions so please uh if you do have a question make sure you're tagging me either at Donnie or at standing for truth and I am currently all caught up on the questions that have come in so far so thanks so much okay topic four is who is the Israel of God and David whenever you're ready please let me know and we'll throw throw it back to you for five minutes all right let me get my timer and John let's go ahead and go to full screen please on your slide yeah on the slide let's go slides full screen you can keep it like that that's great that's great keep it like that than all right Tam on all right so ladies and gentlemen this is essentially what I believe about Galatians 6 16 and I'll read it for you um but as many as have walked Accord to this rule peace be upon them I'm going to be a little pedantic here comma and mercy comma and upon the Israel of God period all right so this is essentially what I believe about this verse I believe Israel is always referenced as an e as as ethnic Israel except in Galatians 6:16 in Paul's writings specifically in Paul's writings okay um now when I say accept I put that in quotes because that is what uh Steve beli believes and many others believe that the Israel a God and by the way this is this is something that was common in early church so this is not something that is uh radically a radical idea for Steve to think that uh the Israel of God is not talking about ethnic Israel but talking about the body of Christ uh so I I will concede that I'll make that very clear understood for that's been taught Steve's position has been taught for about almost 2,000 years okay when if we're to include from the time period from the Church fathers up to where we are now so I understand that in many ways historically speaking I'm I'm in the minority okay so uh I also believe that Romans as I mentioned in our previous question that we were discussing that um oh sorry Romans and and Galatians that when I talk about coincidences there's a lot of there's a lot of commentary not like on G Romans and Galatians like you could take Romans and Galatians and there's a lot of things that I think that they're that they can be used as as a way to interpret each other so Romans is a great commentary on Galatians and Galatians is a great commentary on on on Romans and by the way and I understand because Steve you know he spent a lot of time at the end H last half of our last discussion kind of really trying to focus in on Romans chapter nine I I get it because really again it's it is it's if you gotta you got to have both books in a hand to really help you it's very helpful all right and then uh also Israel after the flesh my Kinsmen my heart's desire equals Israel the Israel of God and I'll get into this and then also Mercy for Israel so these are like my my five key points that I'm briefly going to go over real quick and I think we're going to uh discuss during our conversation so don you can go full screen on me please so in Galatians chapter 6 what we're seeing here I believe and by the way go check out the debate that uh Steve had um a few months back or so I forget in fact I don't remember the gentleman's name but it was a great debate I agree a lot with what the interlocutor was saying but um you know so some of this is going to might sound repetitive if youve watched that debate but I I think it's important to understand that we do need to respect syntax we need to respect grammar and I think that the the translation I have before me you know if you know me I'm a kjb onlyest and I believe what I'm reading is the very words of God regardless of what your stand is I think there's many people who actually don't take my position will say yes you know even in this said translation it it's translated correctly and the grammar points to that there's two representative bodies in this verse and so uh when we respect syntax we're going to see very clearly so when we look at Galatians chter 3:16 we learn that mercy upon the Israel of God if we know anything about the book of Galatians Paul is being I think very hard on those who are the Israel of God he is uh you could say um creating a lot of tension especially when he's using things like uh you know linking Ishmael with the law of Moses I think it's it's it's there's a lot of contention here and so uh he has some very Choice words to use throughout the book when he's describing uh his interlocutors okay who are I believe the Israel of God and so naturally I think what he does like he does in many of his other books especially in Romans is that he makes it very clear that at the end of the day he wishes mercy upon Israel upon his Kingsmen upon his Brethren and I think we see that most clearly in Romans chapter 11: 25-32 and I'll end it here in Romans 11 verse um um verse 25 through 32 it says this and we we're actually going to talk about this verse later so I'm I'm just using this to talk about mercy and not we're not we're going to get to this verse specifically later but my point of using these verses is this I'll end it with this for I would not Brethren that ye should be ignorant of this mystery lest lest ye should be wise in your own conceits that blindness in part is happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles become in and so all Israel shall be saved as is written there shall come out of Zion the deliver and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob for this is my Covenant unto them when I shall take away their sins as con listen to this as concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sakes but as touching the election they are blood for the father's sakes and here's where I'll end it for um for as right here for God hath concluded them all in unbelief that he might have mercy upon all thank you okay thank you David for that five minute opening argument on topic number four Steve the floor is yours go ahead all right thank you well uh I didn't hear much of a case I heard I heard an a affirmation namely that the Israel of God I think DAV is saying is someone other than the church um now obviously Paul says the Israel of God only here in the scripture and by adding of God that's rather unique in fact it's Unique uh absolutely unique and uh he must be contrasting it with the Israel that's not of God certainly there is an Israel that's not of God I mentioned Hosea said that the apostate Israel were not God's people God said that to them um and you know Jesus said that some of the Jews were of their father the devil and they're not they're not the children of Abraham so so there is an Israel that's not of God and that is of course the Israel that rejects the Messiah and then there's the Israel of God which does not reject the Messiah now although Israel is usually used as an ethnic designation so is the word Jew usually used as an ethnic designation and yet Paul says in Romans 2:28 he is not a Jew who's one outwardly neither is that circumcision which is outward of the flesh but he is a Jew who's one inwardly and that is circumcision which is of the heart uh so uh although Jew normally means ethnic Jew he says yeah but it's not always one who's won outwardly it's it's it's got to be of the heart and if you say well they have to be Jewish and inwardly and outwardly well Paul says to the Philippians who were Gentiles there's hard hardly any Jews in Philippi there wasn't even a synagogue there the Philippian converts he says to them in Philippians 3:3 we are the circumcision who rejoice in Christ Jesus who worship God in the spirit don't put any confidence in the flesh well that's certainly different than the the Jews who put a great deal of confidence in the fleshly C circumcision and Paul says no but the true circumcision is those of us who don't us Philippians and you and me Gentiles Jews anyone we are the true circumcision we are the true inward circumcised and Jews in fact Paul we know in Galatians 3 had said that we are the uh children of Abraham and if we're in Christ we are the children of Abraham we are his seed We're The Heirs according the promise all of these are used throughout the Bible basically synonymously with Israel and they usually in most cases they do refer to ethnic Israel and ethnic Jews and and physical circumcision but we can see here sometimes not depends on what the point is that he's making now what point is he making here well he says in verse 15 and 16 of Galatians 6 for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision that means being Jewish because they are called the circumcision nor uncircumcision meaning Gentile because they are called the uncircumcision avails anything neither of those things matter but a new creation if you're a Jew or a gentile and you're in the new creation it doesn't matter whether you're a Jew or Gentile and as many as walk according to this rule what rule well I guess that it doesn't matter whether you're a Jew or Gentile or not peace and mercy upon them and upon the Israel of God now the contention usually centers on whether the word and is uh referring to a new group uh of course the same word Kai in the Greek can mean even and it often does in fact I have several verses I won't take time for right now where it used it's used to connect two groups of the same group there's so and so high or even another term for the same people it's a common common place in uh in Greek now whether he's doing that here or not we don't know except that he has just said there's no distinction between Jew and Gentile he said it back in chapter three he says it here circumcision circumcision doesn't matter anything uh so it'd be very strange if he's greeting the church and in Mercy on them in one case and then he's also greeting secondly the Israel of God which would be in the church because if they're not in if they're not in the body of Christ they don't follow Christ if they don't follow Christ they're not God's people they're the devil's people Jesus said so uh more than that if he's not talking about the same people in both statements it seems strange because he's he's then talking about two different groups and here's the two groups according to many dispensationalists these are the two groups first as many as walk according to this rule peace and mercy to them okay there's the people who walk according to this Rule and there's another group apparently who are called the Israel of God According to some people so the Israel of God don't don't walk by that rule I guess because as many as walk by that rule would include all Christians and if the Israel of God is a separate group then they must not be among those who walk according to this Rule and but what rule do they walk by what the law of Moses they're not that's he's not wishing peace on those who are under the law he's not wishing peace on ethnic Israel apart from Christ there's no peace for the wicked it says in Isaiah twice and uh you know peace comes through righteousness and righteousness comes through faith they're not going to have peace and mercy or Mercy if they don't come to Christ so he's talking about people in Christ they are the Israel of God they are the ones who walk according to this rule of the word and should be translated even in order to avoid confusion thank you very much Steve I appreciate the five minute opening responses on topic number four and to be fair the first two topics in terms of the discussion portions you led the way David at first so Steve we'll let you lead the way for this one as well go ahead okay David did I get you right are you saying that those who walk according to this rule in verse 16 are one group and the Israel God and the Israel God are a different group yes I believe the Israel God are the people mentioned in Romans chap 11: 29 and 30 I do too and they are the believing Jews yeah they're the Christian Jews yeah so so the Israel of God are the believing Jews right no no so Romans 11:29 and 30 I think you got that wrong for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance for as ye in times past have not believed God yet now have obtained Mercy through through their unbelief even so have their these also now not believed that they that they through uh your mercy they also May obtain mercy so they're going to obtain mercy so he's very clearly saying that these apostate Jews is as you call them that they're gon that that they're gonna obtain mercy no it says they may through you they may uh yeah so so Gentiles have received Mercy through what through the agency of the Jews bringing the Messiah yeah so Mercy is being extended to them that's the whole point right exactly and so Mercy is extended to the Jews also so through us okay so are so not not all the Jews are going to receive Mercy only the ones that receive Christ right yeah so mercy upon the Israel of God so that's my whole point Mercy just like in Romans 11 is being extended to this second group grammatically speaking in Galatians chapter 6 verse 16 so you're saying you're saying that the Israel God is that portion of Israel that has turned to Christ correct no I I did not say that what I'm saying well then then listen to me because you interrupted me and you didn't you didn't catch what I was saying I was saying that Paul says Merc these people the Jews as a whole May obtain Mercy through us just like we meaning some Gentiles have obtained Mercy through them so some Gentiles have obtained Mercy now some Jews can't the ones that will are the ones who will receive Christ isn't that correct so in verse 32 no no it's not correct because in verse 32 for God has concluded them in them all in unbelief that he might have mercy upon all so that contradicts everything you just said no it doesn't no he said when he says all he has concluded both Jews and Gentiles under unbelief we were we Gentiles were under unbelief before now the Jews are in unbelief and therefore we have all been consigned under unbelief so that God can have mercy on all that is Jews and Gentiles now he's talking about Jews and Gentiles when he talks about all there but it doesn't mean every last Jew and every last Gentile it means indiscriminately Jews and Gentiles can all receive Mercy he's not saying every last do you believe every Jew is going to become a Christian based upon what I said before no do you do you believe they're all gonna no they're not gonna become Christians but they're gonna obtain Mercy without becoming Christians without what I'm saying is Mercy has been extended okay listen to the verse for God has concluded them all in unbelief that he might have mercy upon all so it's through Israel's fall because we read this in Romans 11 is through Israel's fall that there actually Mercy's going to be extended to him which fits perfectly with wi with his his conclusion in in his closing in chapter six Galatians which he's just simply saying hey you guys peace upon you and mercy upon you you're you're you're not being clear enough I want to try to get more clarity so so I understand what you're saying you're saying that Mercy will be extended to all the Jews but they won't all receive Christ or receive Mercy correct uh no no no no you said that not all will receive Christ correct correct but they'll receive Mercy without receiving Christ yes so just to be clear that when I'm talking about Galatians 6:16 okay he is it's it's a beautiful match what he's saying in Romans how his desire is that his Kinsmen would come to the knowledge of Christ and he seeks mercy upon them that's all he's saying it's like I could do the exact same thing to unbeliever I want mercy upon you guys I don't know why you can't get that address we're trying to address who the Israel of God is okay that term is unique in Galatians 6:16 we're trying to I think the question we're discussing is who are they so you're saying this parallels Romans 11 where God extends where God extends Mercy to all correct all the Jews yes and all the Jews you think will receive that Mercy that's extended to him correct no no no so again let me let me just let me let me make this let me make this very clear you're asking me a question let me answer your question and in in Galatians 6:16 it says this and as many as have walk according to this rule peace upon them first group mercy upon the Israel of God that's what I believe Galatians 6:16 is saying there's two groups of people I I look forward to talking about how gramar it's structured that it specifically says that there's two groups of people too by the way so hope we have time for that first of I'm not King James only so the word order in the King James is not important to me the Greek is more important to me than King James in the king in in the Greek it says mercy upon them and upon the Israel of God so the Israel of God if it's not them you know he says as many as walk according this rule peace and mercy be upon them them those who walk according this rule and or even upon the Israel of God I believe the Israel of God is the same people I I know that obviously but what what version do you primarily preach from well I use the new King James more often than not but I but I don't depend on any English translation I look things up with when they're questionable and agree so so most and by the way see that that statement itself I find to be a little uh um I don't know how do I say this uh condenscending okay like look at the Greek so I obviously know what it means and yet when I like and I'll use your standard Steve just to push back a little I didn't say that that way you asked which version I use I said I use the new King James but when I'm when there's something that is disput I look in the Greek let me finish real quick thank you so what I'm getting at Steve is this earlier on in our discussion you mentioned you know most scholars believe right here you're pointing little tiny Dead River most scholars believe so Steve most scholars believe potentially that there's two groups of people in okay Galatians 6:16 if I let's say let's just say if I read the NIV peace be peace and mercy to all who follow this rule to the Israel of God ESV as for all who walk by this rule peace and mercy be upon them comma and upon the Israel of God um NB uh and I'll do 95 and those who will walk by this rule peace be upon them comma and upon the Israel of God from from what and LSB and those who will walk in step with rule peace and mercy be upon them comma and upon the Israel of God and this is not just dispensational because the person you debated before he's not dispensational so people need to be mindful of that this is not a dispensationalist verse per se so I think grammatically speaking and based upon who you deem as Scholars and people who knew know Greek far better than you are saying very clearly that hey there's two groups of people in Galatians 6:16 you're saying there there's only one you're contradicting I think the Greek experts and I think you're contradicting the clear purpose of Galatians and who the audience is because he's speaking to two people he's not just speaking to uh Gentiles he's speaking to to Jews too okay let's throw it back to Steve equal time go ahead Steve yeah you're arguing a point I'm not making I'm what I'm saying is in the Greek the wording places mercy and peace on the one side of the kai on the one side side of the and uh and and you apparently you're you're putting on the other side that's not the that's not the point I'm talking about the word order here but the you I mean you also said that you know the punctuation matters but there's no punctuation in the Greeks so I mean frankly if everybody agrees with you that the King James only is the way to go then I guess we got nothing you know King James can't be corrected but but the point I'm making is this you you said at the beginning of this discussion on this talk that you were in the minority on this view that most of the church fathers and most of those Scholars throughout church history saw the Israel of God as a reference to the church now most of those Church fathers spoke Greek from their mother's womb they were Greek fathers and they spoke Co Greek for you the first 300 years until the Latin fathers became more prominent the the Greek fathers who knew Greek like you know English and like I know English they thought it was talking about the church so I mean we can just kind of say match that Greek scholar but but I'm not interested in the Greek Scholars I'm not even interested in what the church fathers said I'm saying uh that you know this is either talking about the church or it's not now you said well I'm trying to figure you out because it seems to me it seems to me that you are saying that um there are Jews who are the Israel of God who are not not Believers in Christ and you're comparing them with those that would receive Mercy in Romans 11 but I think you said not all of them are going to receive Mercy not all of them will receive Christ and you can't have mercy without Christ so so the Israel of God is the ones that Paul wishes Mercy on remember when Paul opens his letter he says Grace let me ask you question see wait one second you've talked a little bit so let me ask you real quick it's related to what you just said what church fathers agree with you can you please list them out I I don't care no wait a minute I'm not making my point based on Church fathers you yourself said most of the church fathers agree with me and I believe that's true yes so let me let me let me I was I was a hyperbolic statement hyperbolic statement so let me let me make something very clear to you that was a hyperbolic statement also when you say that I don't care what the church fathers beli I list a lot of what I listen to you you really make a big emphasis on this is what the uh ancient Church beli and this is what the ancient Church believe and so you you so I think that you really do think it's important what they do believe so I just want to stress that to the audience so to answer your overall question I will say what they believe is many tiers below what I read in the Bible itself if if what they belied confirms so I read the Bible I make make I may mention that's what the church has always believe and I say the same thing but that's not what I got from your other talks but we're not talking about those but the reason I'm bringing it up then I think it is relevant to bring that up that what you mentioned others is because you stress in your other videos like hey this is not what the early church taught so but all of a sudden like dispensationalist believe this you know it's like who do you go with and when you mention the Greeks or the some of the church fathers speaking Greek look there's like like they don't I they do not speak Greek like there's only so you only get so good at speaking Greek okay like like for example like my mother she speak Spanish Spanish is your native language okay like you're not going to there's going to be a point where like dude you know Greek you know Spanish done deal what I'm expressing to you that the majority of translations which you deem is trustworthy and are done by eminent Scholars or quote unquote what you believe they disagree with you and earlier in the debate you use scholarship as a standard for why the border of Egypt was right here I'm just using your standard Stephen saying hey the majority of Scholars today actually don't agree with you there's actually two groups of people in Galatians chapter 6 verse 16 I actually don't care you said it's not just this all those translations you mentioned probably are trans uh NIV nasb those are those are dispensational translations but you see a person theology a person theology will definitely determine whether they think Kai in a given case means and or even because it can mean either way the question is going to be what is Paul saying not what does the word mean the word means and or it means even depending on what it's talking about in my statement is that Paul is talking about those who walk according to this rule are the same people who are the Israel God that's I and so I take Kai to mean even the Israel of God there it's used many times that way in scripture not not always it can mean and it's it's not uh it's not GNA be settled by the Greek but and it's certainly not be settled by Greek translators uh it's going to be settled by what is the thought that Paul is arguing if you can't follow Paul's train of thought then then then you just have to go with you know Counting of translaters well that's interesting that you say that it's basically basically it sound like you were just saying well it doesn't really matter the Greek doesn't have a weight on it but what matters is what Paul's saying in chapter six so okay but here's the thing okay is that is it okay to think is it okay to think that in Galatians there's Paul is referencing um people who are saved Believers and then that he's also he's also talking to these Galatians about these Israel ites who are pushing the law upon them and then while he concludes his letter he just says hey he brings up the the exact people he was talking about so it makes sense why he would want mercy upon the people that he so desires to get saved that he himself would you know you know a cursed himself I don't see how that's radical the benediction he gives there is exactly like the benedictions he gives at the beginning of all his letters peace to you grace to you he's invoking that uh those that he's speaking to now is he invoking Mercy on the unbelieving Jews how what Authority does he have to do that Christ doesn't why not I mean I want all the all the unbelievers out there that I want to be saved I want mercy upon them and but he can't pronounce Mercy on people who haven't received Mercy yes yes you can Mercy here's the thing I think what you're doing though and we're done now here I'll just stop with this Stephen and you can finish I think what you're doing it sounds like you're trying to equate Mercy with salvation I could be wrong all I'm just simply trying to say is just saying hey guys I just want these people to get saved I don't want them to go burn in hell forever they're my people that's my heart's desire mercy upon them what Paul wishes for them he says is peace and mercy very similar to peace and Grace and peace at the beginning of most Epistles so uh he's you know he if if you're saying he's saying I hope they get saved and find Mercy well you can read that into it if you want to but that's not what Paul means when he gives uh benedictions at the beginning of his letters he means you people are recipients of grace and mercy that's what he means when he says that and if he's saying these people the Israel of God are recipients of grace and mercy peace and mercy uh then he's saying they're saved gentlemen excellent back and forth very interesting back and forth I'm I'm really enjoying the engaging discussion we're moving moving along really good and we're now moving into topic number five so we got two more to go and this topic is we're going to be engaging the question what does all Israel will be saved mean and so uh David we're gonna throw it back to you allow me to restart the timer and you have five minutes for a a response or answer to that question go ahead oh let me get my timer by the way AUD thank you so much we are we got two questions left and I hope you see how every single one of these questions is relevant so let me get my uh give me a second Donnie one second I got my set up my apologies let's see here all right all right okay timer is on five minutes Romans 11:25 through 27 for I would not brethren that ye should be ignorant of this mystery lest ye should be wise in your own conceits that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles become in and so all Israel shall be saved as it is written there shall come out of Zion the deliver and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob for this is my Covenant unto them when I shall take away their sins Romans 11:25 through 27 I think the best way to interpret this very uh contentious uh chapter is simply to look at specifically the verses that are used in this chapter uh throughout the Bible and also see specifically what does it mean for Israel to be saved first place I'm going to start off is in Luke chapter one verse 67 all through 74 so hang tight so in verse 67 of chapter 1 we're going to get us very clear understanding of this idea of salvation for Israel mind you everybody when you hear the word salvation generally you think of entering into world to come or that is gaining eternal life uh the word salvation has multiple uses and multiple meanings and I think the scripture verses I'm going to use is going to help clarify that verse 67 says this and his father Zacharias this is John the Baptist's father was filled with the Holy Ghost and prophesied saying ladies and gentlemen listen to this this this is in the nutshell is simply what the what the purpose of Jesus was to come for blessed be the Lord God of Israel for he hath visited and redeemed his people that's Israel and hath raised up in Horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David and he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets which have been since the world began that we should be saved from our enemies and from the hand of all all that hate us to perform the mercy promise to our fathers and to remember His Holy Covenant the oath which he swear to our Our Father Abraham that he would Grant unto us that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear now Isaiah 59 is actually the verse that Paul quotes in Isaiah 59:20 it says this and the Redeemer shall come to Zion and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob saith the Lord now let's look at the verse preceding that verse 19 so shall they fear the name of the Lord from the West and his glory from the rising of the sun when the enemy shall come in like a flood the spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him now let's read 20 again and the Redeemer which Paul quotes and the Redeemer shall come to Zion and unto them that turn from the transgression in Jacob sayith the Lord verse 21 as for me this is my Covenant with them sayith the the Lord my spirit that is upon thee and my words which I have put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seed nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed sayeth the Lord from henceforth and forever in hoseah chapter 6 verses 1 through2 it says this come and let us return unto the Lord for he hath torn and he will heal us he has SM and he will bind us up after two days will he revive us in the third day he will raise us up and we shall live in his sight that fits beautifully with Romans chapter 11 verse 26 and to conclude uh my argument I'm going to quote from Jeremiah 31:31 which clearly defines what the New Covenant is all about it says this behold the days come sayith the Lord I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah I'm going to keep reading by the way let's go let's keep reading verse 32 not according to the Covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt which my Covenant they break although I was in husband unto them sayeth the Lord but this shall be the Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days sayith Lord I will put my law on their inward parts and write them in their hearts and will be their God and they shall be my people and they shall teach no man no more every man his neighbor and every man his brother saying know the Lord for they shall all know me from the least of them unto the greatest of them saith the Lord for I will forgive their iniquity and I will remember their their sins no more ladies and gentlemen I think it's evidently clear that when uh Romans 11:26 is talking about salvation it's talking about what is said in Luke chapter 1 being safe from their enemies in Israel coming back literally ethnically as one nation as one Kingdom both northern and southern tribes coming together thank you okay okay thank you David for that roughly five minute response to topic number five we're now going to hand it back to Steve Steve whenever you're ready you also got five minutes go ahead all right what does Paul mean when he says so or in this way is what the word means in Greek so or thus all Israel will be saved what in what way the opening word in that verse it literally means in Greek in this way thus even in the King James it says so which means thus so so he's saying how all Israel will be saved now many of the verses that David mentioned mentioned that Israel will be saved in the Old Testament and Paul begins this discussion back in chapter nine chapter 9 through 11 are all one discussion and so we have to look at you know chapter 11 verse 26 as winding up a discussion that started in chapter nine Paul talks about how sad he is that Israel isn't saved and then he says in verse six it's not that the promises of God or the word of God has failed well it seems like it has if God said Israel be saved and Jesus has come and they weren't saved but Paul says no it hasn't failed because they are not all Israel who are of Israel now by that he is saying there are two israels as I said earlier there's the Israel of God which are the faithful Israel and then there's Israel basically according to the F which Jesus said were following their father the devil so um so there's two israels there's the the Israel of God the the faithful Israel what we call the remnant of Israel and then there's the rest of those who are of Israel that has descended from Jacob they are not all Israel Paul said who are of Israel so the promises Paul is saying for the Salvation of Israel don't mean all the people who descended from Israel if they did then then the promise certainly hasn't come true because the vast majority of people descended from Israel have died and been lost without Christ so you know if God was going to save all the Jews he sure didn't do that and uh but Paul says the promise has not failed to come true it's not that God's word has not taken effect it has but you have to understand who Israel is to whom these promises are made and they are not all Israel who are of Israel that's when he goes into this talk about the difference between Children of the Flesh and Children of the promise who are different kinds of children of Abraham but one thing it can't mean uh Romans 11:26 cannot mean that all Jews would be saved because it says earlier in the discussion Paul quotes Isaiah 1022 in Romans 9 27 he says as Isaiah said though the children of Israel be as the sand of the seashore Only The Remnant will be saved so the the Jewish people may be as numerous as the sand of seore but only a remnant of them will be saved Paul has established that at the beginning who who's that Remnant that's the Israel within Israel that's the faithful remnants of Israel that's why not all who are of Israel who may number is the sand of the seashore not all of them are Israel they're not all the remnant that God promised to Only The Remnant will be saved so when Paul says in chapter 11 verse uh you know 26 so all Israel be saved he's telling how it is that Israel be saved but it'll only be the remnant but he's just described how it is in the earlier verses from verse 16 on just before this in chapter 11 he talks about the Olive Tree now the Olive Tree is Israel there's no question about that he gets that image from Jeremiah 11:16 where Israel is called an olive tree with branches broken off and he says yeah there's an olive tree and branches have been broken off they've been broken off for their unbelief this is the natural Jews who did not believe and who have been broken off the tree they're not part of Israel anymore but there are believing Jews who were not broken off they're still on the tree so you know there's the believing Gentile Jews are on the tree and then he says believing Gentiles have been grafted on so the tree which is Israel now includes the faithful remnant of the Jews and the faithful Believers from the Gentiles and in this way all Israel that is the whole tree the Jewish and the Gentile branches will be saved and this is how God's promise is fulfilled that all that that the Jews will be saved that Israel will be saved now the promises of God really only Promises to the remnant although it's not always stated clearly every time it comes up but it's mentioned for example in in Joel The Passage that Peter quoted on the day of Pentecost you know that uh when he talks about you know the spirit to be poured out on flesh All Flesh he says in verse 32 of Joel 2 it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be Deliverance or salvation as the Lord has said among the remnant whom the Lord calls so the remnant are the the ones that God calls and there will be salvation for them and they're the ones that he pours out his Spirit on which is what he did on the day of Pentecost as Peter pointed out the remnant was there the faithful remant were there praying and waiting in obedience to Jesus and the spirit Came Upon them and that's uh that's how Israel is saved they're saved through Christ and uh it's Jewish branches and Gentile branches on the Israel tree Paul says in verses 16 through 24 Steve I appreciate it gentlemen you guys are doing an excellent job with these power rounds on these important topics and so now what we'll do is David will allow you to kick off this discussion portion again somewhere between 10 and 15 minutes topic number five go ahead gentlemen go for it Steve you said Steve right Steve for this one David we uh you kicked off the first two Steve the second the the last two you can uh ask the first question for for this one now all right fair enough uh Steve why didn't you reference uh Paul's references from the Old Testament well you did so why should I have to they make my point the the reference in Isaiah 59 that you referen actually says uh the Redeemer shall come from Zion and to all who turn from transgression in Jacob that's the remant Jacob so in J so so if is when Isaiah is saying that the audience that is when they're listening to Isaiah when they hear Jacob are they thinking of the ethnic Israel or are they thinking of those outside of Israel too well they're probably thinking of Old Testament Israel because that's usually called Jacob and Israel but Old Testament Israel had Gentiles in it too Ruth was and Rahab was and there are many Gentiles any Gentile could be part of Israel if they circumcised them themselves or joined the Covenant you see Israel was a covenant people made up of Jews and Gentiles just like the church is today okay so I think it's fair enough to say that they weren't thinking what you thought what you just said there's I don't think there's any evidence at all for that we wait wait wa what it said was he'll he'll turn he'll return and redeem those in Jacob who turn from their iniquity that's the remnant of the of the Jews isn't it okay so you said the Jews but now you're saying Gentiles well which is it well give me a chance the Jews are joined by Gentiles okay and and Paul said that in his illustration of the tree did he not did he not say there's Jewish branches and Gentile branches on Israel the tree and isn't that isn't that true of the Israel in the Old Testament too there were Gentiles there too in Israel so let me answer your question so I don't are you aware of my understanding of of uh the nation of Israel the nation of Israel and the northern and southern tribes you aware of what I believe about that no probably not okay so in Romans 11 I believe it's talking about the northern tribes I think the majority of the Bible is if if not all of it is focused on Israel Israel is the primary audience and that when you read scripture you have to look at it through that lens and understand that when when we're talking about Israel the main focus is the Messiah bringing back Jeremiah 31:31 bringing back the northern and southern tribes so when you see Gentile you automatically think oh you think non-israelites and that's technically not true you whenever the word you the word Gentile is used you have to find out whether or not it's talking about Northern Israelites or if it's talking about non-israelites so the word Gentile is not does not exclusively mean non-israelites that's that's a that's a historical fact so let me let me get this clear so you're saying that the northern tribes of Israel can be called Gentiles yes yeah I mean Josephus when he when he wrote his book his first book which was written in Aramaic by the way not in Greek he had to get H for that when he wrote his first book he made it very clear that he referenced those outside of Israel he he references them as as heathens The Barbarians okay so so let me make this point then in Ezekiel uh chapter 37 the prophecy of the two sticks one is Israel and one is Judah right yep and yep and they're and they become one stick in his hand but you're saying Israel can be called Gentiles or Gentiles can be called Israel what what here's what I'm saying all Jews are Israelites but not all Israelites are Jews okay so after the dispersion many of the Northerners became non-covenant completely put away what what they grew up with or what their ancestors grew up with and they essentially assimilated within a gentile a gentile world so when again you have to you have again you have to understand that the word Gentile does not only mean non-israelite that is a historical fact if you believe that I'm sorry that's not the truth at all it has multiple meanings and so that's you know is what it is I'm fine with it then then when Ezekiel said the Israel and Judah will become one stick or one people that means Jews and Gentiles that's fine I believe that no no no no no no no no no see no no no no no no that's not what I said what what I'm saying is that uh the term when when you're reading Ro when you're reading Romans 11 and and you're hearing him talk about Gentiles he's referencing the northern tribes okay no he's he's talking r no he's talking in Ezekiel you know in Ezekiel here's the thing let me let me say it another way in Ezekiel he's not saying the Jews and the non-israelites there definitely not no way not even close but in Romans 11 when he talks about the branches that were grafted in from a wild Olive Tree he says you his readers the je the Romans now the Romans were not from the 10 tribes they were from another stock so so he's talking about Gentiles the way we usually think of the word the Roman Gentiles have been grafted in among the believing Jews into one tree which now makes the Israel of God which is the Israel that not all who are of Israel are part of and again you can't really say that all Israel is going to be saved when Paul has already said only a remnant of them will be saved the majority will not he said even if Israel's numerous as the sand of sea only a Remnant is going to be saved and you can't have him you know two chapters later in the same conversation deny that well um I did I I I don't want to go too much on this on this Trail but I just I brought that up because I think it's important that you at least understand what I believe about the this concept because you're definitely it's not right for you to say that the two branches are uh the Jews and and the and the um the uh the non-israelites I mean that's kind of Mormon too I think that's definitely not true you have to argue wa wa wait David let me just jump in Steve go ahead I had one thing no David I think Steve can yeah you accuse me of saying something Mormon no the Mormons believe those sticks are two books the Bible and the Book of Mormon there not nothing like what I was saying I'm saying who who does the Mormons believe is ephra who do they believe is Ephram I don't care I don't care what the Mormons think you're not gonna answer it I get you no no they they they believe the two sticks are two books you ask them I've talked to them many times okay all right well I ask you who they think ephra is but I get it all right so let's do this let's let's let's go back 11:26 let me go back to Isaiah 2 so let me just read Isaiah okay verse 59 so shall they fear the name of the Lord for the West and his glory from the rising of the sun where the enemy shall come in like a flood Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him right we know verse 20 in verse 21 as for me this is my Covenant with them sayeth the Lord my spirit that is upon thee and my words which I have put in my in thy mouth shall not dep part of out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seed nor out of the mouth of thy seed seed so do is that talking about the ethnic Israel well Israel is not ethic is Israel is a nation made up of Jews and Gentiles in those days it was primarily Jews okay so when yeah so it's not ethic Israel is not an ethnic group it's a covenant group it's the people who were under the old Covenant okay so th so th so so which group does the which group do the non-israelites belong to do they belong to the Northern or the southern like are they Jacob or are they Judah who does the non-israelites belong to Jacob or Judah I guess whichever group they join so I'm what I'm trying to understand is this going back to Isaiah when Isaiah is talking you admitted that even then those people would have considered it that like hey this is this is talking about the descendants of the 12 tribes okay so my understanding is is that in Jeremiah 3131 when it's talking about that the The House of the House of Israel and the house of Judah with Jacob and Judah is that talking about the literal regathering of the northern and southern tribes no there's no mention of regathering them in in Jeremiah 31 I mean maybe earlier I mean they are gathered from Babylon Jeremiah's mainly talking about the Babylonian exile that's almost what the whole book's about okay so there's no mention of any Gathering after the after the regathering from Babylon there's no mention okay well that's actually going to be in in my next my next question or my next next question we're going to review but so when it talks about in Luke chapter 1 verse uh let's see let's let's do this Luke chapter 1 because and I'm I'll be honest like when I hear you say that the Gentiles or the non-israelites are being spoken of in in Isaiah I don't know anyone else who believes that except you and in your uh denominational belief system I didn't I didn't say it's I didn't say it's the non-israelites what are you talking about well that's how you view the word Gentile what that's how you view the word Gentile that's how you that's that's how you define earlier I actually don't that's what you said you said that the Israel was called Gentiles so I was just saying oh okay I can go with that I hadn't ever thought of it that way but then the opposite would be that you would believe they're non-israelites that's my point well no Israelites Israel was a nation and a people that was multiethnic and they were joined in one people through a covenant and when God made that Covenant sin he said any Gentile any non-jew who wants to become part this can be circumcised and keep the Sabbath and keep the Passover and will be like a native of the land now I think that a gentile that became like a native of the land uh and and was circumcised was considered to be part of Israel wasn't Ruth part of Israel wasn't Rahab part of Israel yeah I believe I believe in the proelite system there's two typ prite system but but you're conflating that and the problem is the problem is is that in an Israelites mind your you're your your in my you know don't take strong way but I I think you're kind of twisting it because you're stretching it because if you read it from where they're from from their sits and leing from their living setting nobody's walking away with your perception they're like hey we're the descendants of the northern and southern tribes okay we might have some prosites here or there but we're talking about the northern and southern tribes coming back together so you're you're saying that Isaiah's in Isaiah's day they didn't know there were prosites who were part of Israel didn't say that okay then there were then they did I agree they they they did believe they knew they knew that Israel was primarily made up of descendants of Abraham Isaac and Jacob but also partly made up of Gentiles who entered the Covenant so the nation was multiethnic and they still separated and here's the interesting thing that I think you should point out is even though that they were prosites they would still even separate them I mean that's that's a whole other thing to even get into and so what you're trying to do here's what you're trying to do you're trying to take it all like this tiny proelite minority group and you're trying to conflate that and swing it in and bring oh look it's the northern and southern tribes there it is nobody got that back then we don't know how tiny that was it might have been tiny but it was still part of Israel and therefore now you're going based upon doubt I get it what okay so now you're leading with doubt you're just leading well we don't know I I I get it ttic okay I'm saying I don't know and I don't care I know that the prelit were part of Israel and therefore Israel had multinationals in it it was multinational here's the thing I didn't say they didn't but what I'm getting at is they were good I did then you wait a minute so in Jer so in Jeremiah 31:31 the restoration okay the restoration the bringing back of the house of Israel combined with the house of Judah restoring that relationship bringing it back bringing the two sticks back together okay a combined kingdom unified Kingdom which is the dream and the hope of Israel that's what they wanted you don't see that at all in Romans 11:26 even though Paul specifically quotes Isaiah 59 which talks about being saved from their enemies and then also referencing the very next verse the New Covenant linking why are you linking Isaiah 59 with Isa with Jeremiah 31 I mean oh well I I quoted it it's it's it's right there it's this is I'm glad you asked let's let me answer I'll answer because I mean I I read it to you uh in Isaiah 59 I know the verses I know them by heart but why do you okay you know them by heart then then then say them why I'm asking you why you link them if you know them by heart then say them well I'll say them if I want say I'm asking you a question can you answer that question well it was a hyperbolic statement I get it I'm just I'm I'm jabbing at you a little don't worry about it all right know I can quote it okay quote it let me just jump I wna I want it it's been very I'm not here to prove what I can quote I'm trying to get an answer from you do you it answer his question please I am but if you're going to say you can quote it I'm being honest saying quote it uh 21 verse 21 one of chapter 59 as for me this is my Covenant okay with them sayith the Lord look I wish I can zoom in on this but my cross reference even takes me to Jeremiah 31:31 takes me to Hebrews 8 and10 takes me to Hebrews 8116 okay that's fine that's what I asked so it's quoting it that's what you asked and so it's quoting it and therefore if it's quoting it it's linking it and so if you know ancient Judaism it's quoting Isaiah chapter 59 not quoting Jeremiah 31 but if it was quoting Jeremiah 31 I'm not I don't have a problem with I'm just asking why you were linking that as if he was quoting Jeremiah 31 now Jeremiah 31 might mention bringing back the Jews from captivity in Babylon but but it doesn't mention that in Jeremiah 31:31 through 34 where the New Covenant let me do this but this is verse 33 but this shall be the Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days sayith Lord I will put my law that's the law of Moses okay in their inward part and write it in their hearts and will be their God and they shall be my people I don't know I think it's very evident what's happening I think is we're imposing we're kind of like narcing it we're imposing our uh political religious party system into that verse and I think that's the biggest mistake and I think so many Christians are guilty of it okay well I'm saying that the verse you quoted I agree with I agree that the Redeemer comes from Zion and to those who turn from iniquity in Jacob I do believe believe that he made the New Covenant with them they are the upper room disciples the the the ones who turn from iniquity in Jacob okay so when it says when yes so then when it says all Israel shall be saved what are they going to be saved from Isaiah tells us Isaiah tells us in in in uh 64 oh sorry I lost it Isaiah tells us specifically it says so shall they fear the name of the Lord from the West and his glory from the rising of the sun where the enemy shall come in like a flood the Spear of the Lord so lift up the standard against him in other words Israel will be saved the literal physical Israel in the future when they're gonna be brought back as as as two tries will come they will be saved from their enemy which is specifically most likely Gog by the way yeah there's no mention of the future there okay so they shall so shall so shall that's future I I just want to okay so Steve we're going to give you the last word feel free to finish your thoughts and then we're going to move to the next topic go ahead that's interesting that the salvation of Israel from their enemies David thinks that's something in the future when he actually read Luke chapter 1 where zecharias prophesied that this had happened he said blessed be the Lord God of Israel for he has that's past tense with the birth of John the Baptist he has visited his people and raised up a horn of salvation for us and just like he spoke by the prophets so he sees the birth of John the Baptist as also important of the coming of the Messiah which is a fulfillment of what was promised in the prophets which was what that Israel would be saved from the hand of all their enemies well okay so he said that was happening then he said this has happened God has come you believe it's future Zechariah zecharias didn't say it was future he said no okay gentlemen very good and I'm impressed with the endurance we've made it to our final topic we've moved along smoothly you've both done a great job at giving us a very edifying conversation a lot of points for us to digest and also to reflect on and the audience I got I appreciate how engaged they are lots of positive feedback they're really enjoying this fast-paced and focused format so okay final topic for tonight is topic six will there be a future Temple and so David just let me know when you're ready I am going to restart the timer here as usual we got five minutes for the both of you to answer that that question that interesting question so David the floor is yours go ahead thank you Donnie hit that timer so in Luke chapter one and I've mentioned this in the in the previous uh discussion Luke chapter 1 uh verse 71 says that we should be saved from our enemies the we Zacharias he's talking about his Nation his people those who are descendants from the 12 tribes uh would be saved and so when you when you look at ancient Judaism it's very evident that what's what their eschatology is like is is is this in a nutshell is that you have the 12 tribes they're scattered you have the northern and the southern split they've been having an issue as we know has been clearly demonstrated with keeping the law of Moses God will put it in their inward Parts through the New Covenant Jeremiah 30:31 and he will restore what he first started bringing the tribes he started the tribes together he's going to bring them back and he's going to restore them and through their rise they're going to bless the world bless the Gentiles that boy we can get into the mystery what Paul revealed about how how through their fall how salvation has come to the other side so that's another story but here's the thing is that if we really understand the the the concepts behind the eschatology for ancient Judaism I think this would clear up so much I think uh the problem we have today is we're ignoring what they taught and said we're relying on Church fathers like Steve does and we're relying on even Moder day Scholars and I think we need to go back and we need to take a look at what ancient Judaism taught and don't fear it nothing wrong with doing that you start in chapter one and you work your way through we don't start in chapter three of a or Chapter 30 of a book and think that we're gonna understand it we need to start in chapter one and proceed through the rest of the chapters so the future Temple how does it have anything to do with this conversation so much because I think it finalizes what we're talking about in Micah 7: 11-12 it says this and Micah by the way was speaking to the Samaritans the northern tribes in the day that thy walls are to be built in that day shall the decree be far removed in that day also he shall come even to the even to thee from Assyria and from the Fortified cities and from the fortresses even to the river and from the sea to Sea and from the mountain to Mountain Amos 9 11-14 Amos remember he's a prophet to the north to the northern tribes remember that he's a prophet to North they've already been taken this is 150 plus years or so before uh the Judah was to be taken away and he says this and by the way James quotes James event quotes him in Acts 15 during the council in that day I will and quotes these verses in that day I will raise up the Tabernacle of David that has fallen and close up the breaches thereof I'll raise up his runes and I will buil uh build it as in the days of old uh verse 14 and I will bring again the Captivity of my people of Israel and they shall build the way cities and habit them and they shall plant Vineyards and drink the wine thereof they shall also make Gardens and eat the fruit thereof ladies and gentlemen that is Amos and he's talking about the northern tribes Northern tribes never came back to fulfill that yet Isaiah 54:3 for Thou shalt Break Forth on the right hand and on the left and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles and make the desolate cities to be inhabited Isaiah 60 verse 1 through3 arise Shine for thy light is come and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee for Behold The Darkness shall cover the Earth and gross Darkness the people but the the Lord shall rise upon thee and His glory shall be seen upon thee and the Gentiles shall come to thy light and the Kings to the brightness of thy Rising Ezekiel 8:16 says and he brought me into the inner Court of the Lord's House and behold at the door of the Temple of the Lord between the porch and the altar were about five and 20 men with their backs toward the Temple of the Lord and their faces toward the East and they worshiped the sun toward the East Ladi and gentlemen the temple that was described in Ezekiel was not built in in fact they purposely they did not follow the plans when they built the second temple here's the biggest one I think Tobit 14: 4 through six remember Tobit is written to the northern tribes not the southern Tobit is a member of one of the northern tribes and this is what he says thus sayith the Lord God no stranger oh sorry Ezekiel 49 449 says this my apologies thus sayith the Lord God no stranger uncircumcised in heart nor uncircumcised and flesh I enter into my sanctuary of any stranger that is among the children of Israel let me finish with this this is Tobit sorry tobot 14: 4-6 go into media my son for I surely believe those things which Jonas the prophet spake in Nineveh that it shall be overthrown and that for a Time peace shall rather be in media and that our Brethren shall lie scattered in the Earth from that good land and Jerusalem shall be desolate and the house of God and it shall be burned and shall be desolate for a time and that again God will have mercy on them and bring them again into the land where they shall build a temple but not like to the first until the time of the age be fulfilled after they shall return from all places of their captivity and build Jerusalem gloriously and the house of the Lord shall be built in it forever with a glorious building as the prophets have spoken thereof and all the nations shall turn and fear the lord God truly and shall bury their dead and here's end ladies and gentlemen this is it the Israelites in the days of the ancient prophets when the 10 tribes were led into K expected a double return and that at the first the Jews should should build a new Temple in Fury to Solomon until the time of that age should be fulfilled and afterwards they shall return from all glorious places of their captivity and build Jerusalem and the temple gloriously Tobit 14456 Sir Isaac Newton observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel okay David thank you for that five minute response on topic number six again will there be a a future Temple interesting question Steve we'll hand it over to you oops you got five minut thank you yeah it's interesting David said that I depend on the church fathers I don't depend on them for anything I hardly knew what they believed when I reached my views in fact I didn't know what they believed back then I I've reached my views from the scriptures not from the church fathers and yet David depends on second erris and Tobit who weren't even Christians at least the church fathers had the advantage of the New Testament to give them Insight the I don't care what the eschatology of the Jews was before Jesus came Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3 that when they read the Old Testament there's a veil over their eyes uh and so they don't until they turn to the Lord their heart is veiled and they can't understand what the prophets said Peter said in 1 Peter chap 1 and veres 10 uh through 12 that even the prophets themselves didn't understand what they were saying and and God said it's not for them to know it's for it to be revealed by the Holy Spirit to the people Peter said in his own day so there's a lot of uh I mean I don't care how how the Jews felt about it in fact most Jews I've talked to I've had you know knowledgeable religious Jews say where there's three Jews there's four opinions so hardly matters what Tobit said or or what the Jews thought they didn't recognize Jesus Jesus it makes it very clear they didn't recognize their scriptures they didn't understand the scriptures because they didn't know Jesus fulfilled them and Peter makes that point by the way and Acts chapter 3 says you not knowing the scriptures fulfilled them by crucifying Jesus so I I really don't have any interest in what the Jews eschatology was I'm interested what Jesus's eschatology was and what Paul's was now Jesus said destroy this Temple and it was the second temple he's talking about and in three days I will raise it up again well he was talking about his body his body is the new Temple and Paul said that too multiple times Paul said to the church do you not know that you are the temple of God Peter said in 1 Peter 2:5 uh we are living stones built up into a spiritual house he means a temple because in Ephesians 2 it says we are a a temple habitation of God through the spirit a holy Temple so I mean the temple today is the body of Christ God is does not dwell in temples made with hands that is stated by stepen in his sermon which I think David is impressive by and I am too Stephen made a very good sermon and he said God is Not does not inhabit temples made with hands and he quoted Isaiah to point to prove that point now what I would say about the temple is first of all there's no mention in the Bible at least no unambiguous mention of the Third Temple um the Tabernacle of David found in Amos 9 which David read um that's not the temple Tabernacle of David that's not Solomon's Temple it's not even a new a third Temple um you know none of the verses that he quoted actually referred to a future Temple he did mention something from Ezekiel 44 in Ezekiel 40-47 which includes that verse does mention a temple it doesn't say that it's necessarily going to be built in fact God makes it very clear that it might not be built in Ezekiel CH 43: 10 and 11 God said to Ezekiel about this Temple son of man described the temple meaning the one he's seen to the house of Israel that they may be ashamed of their iniquities now these Jews are in captivity in Babylon and he wants them to repent and be ashamed of their iniquities it says and if they are ashamed then let them measure the pattern and make known to them the design of the temple and Arrangement so if the Jews in Babylon were were ashamed well then this is the temple that they would have God gave them a nice blueprint just like he gave Solomon trouble is of course they weren't when they were offered the opportunity to go back by Cyrus to build the temple only 50,000 even cared out of millions of Jews in captivity only 50,000 that's a pretty small Remnant that came back and they did build a temple but it was a pretty small Temple it wasn't the one that Ezekiel described because they didn't meet the conditions for it there's no statement here that there's going to be a third Temple this was a description I believe of the potential second temple because the Temple of Solomon was dead and gone at the time that Ezekiel wrote and he talking about a temple if there was a if he's talking about a future Temple it'd be the second temple because the first one was gone and there wasn't a second one yet it's just that the second one didn't ever measure up because the people didn't measure up to the conditions God said if they are ashamed then show them this well they apparently weren't ashamed enough hardly any of them went back and had any interest in worshiping God with all their heart soul mind and strength so uh there's no mention in the Bible of a future Temple that is unambiguous anywhere I yield thank you very much Steve gentlemen we're now moving into the open discussion portion of topic number six Steve let's give you the opportunity to start us off here with with a question or a point go ahead okay uh Dave um do you believe that Ezekiel chapter 40 through 47 is talking about a future Temple yes okay uh and you even quote quoted from uh Ezekiel 449 that said no uncircumcised person will be allowed in it how do you harmonize that with the fact that circumcision and uncircumcision are nothing but a new creation isn't is something there's no circumcision required now so as a dispensationalist and specifically more of a classical dispensationalist in line with schaer and and and Scofield and boinger I see that the what's Lin to I think what's going to happen is the the law of Moses is going to be restored definitely watch some my debates I've debated that a lot on standing for truth okay so so uh there's going to come a time when animal sacrifices are necessary to atone for sins again that's a loaded question because I never said anything like that no Ezekiel says that Ezekiel says that there will be atonement animal blood will be shed for the atonement of sin so is that what you believe is going to be true in the future so if that's what Ezekiel says then read it yeah read it read it let's go to that verse do that Ezekiel 45:15 one lamb shall be given wait wait Ezekiel 45 or 49 45 okay there's no 49 yeah okay Ezekiel 45:15 one lamb shall be given from the flock of 200 for the rich pastures of Israel these shall be for grain offerings burnt offerings and peace offerings to make atonement for them says the Lord here's another one okay well I I see what I see what happened though is because the word here is reconciliation so so ultimately yes will will these will there be peace offerings yes of course I mean I'm a dispensation you should know that I that's what we believe yeah okay and in chapter 45:17 says he shall prepare the sin offering grain offering burnt offering and peace offerings to make atonement for the house of Israel okay in Ezekiel 4522 it talks about the prince and most dispensationalists think the prince is Jesus but it says and on that day the prince shall prepare for himself and all the people of the land a bull for a sin offering so Jesus is going to offer a bull for a sin offering for himself see don't you think like think about how you just did that you're like most dispensationalists therefore are are you saying that Jesus is going to do that you got you got to line the question up differently because I don't agree that that's I don't agree that's Jesus I think you're a classical classical dispensation so I that's why that no no first off there are many things you think about dispensationalism that are not technically what I would agree with in even classical dispensations but aside from that here I'll say this is that to answer your question do I believe that these things that you just read will happen in the future 150% yes okay so in other words you've gone on record animal sacrifice will be offered for an atonement in the new Temple I prefer to say reconciliation but but as far as as as far as like why like first off I made it I've made it very clear especially in one of my last debates uh in regards to the subject that just because I can't explain why that is and by the way Jews ancient Jewish teachers and rabbis they're they're also complex too they're like this isn't a question that's like ah gotcha it's like we've pondered this we don't fully understand it and I think I think it's okay for me to say yeah it's pretty interesting whoa but it doesn't make that that doesn't make it wrong it doesn't yeah you're not an ancient Jew you're a Christian and as a Christian you should believe that Jesus offered himself once and for all for all time and there's no more levitical priesthood because Christ is a priest Forever After the order of mzc and yet the levitical priests are offering sacrifices in Ezekiel 40347 you you they're married and they're not supposed to marry widows but this are you think this is in a millennium but when the resurrection C takes place when Jesus comes back there's no more marriage or death no widows no but here here's the thing you haven't in in this in this back and forth Steve you haven't in any way demonstrated that there's no future Temple all you've done is say look do you actually believe that like that's that's absurd like I'm I'm gonna jump in because I want the audience to to feel as edified as possible David maybe and I mean this in all due respect a little less attitude in answering the questions and I'm not sure if you answered the question about the animal sacrifices Steve since it's an important question can you reiterate the the question and then David can you give a very straightforward response please yeah go ahead so Steve to reiterate the question okay sorry that's okay go ahead Steve three times in that section of Ezekiel talk about the temple it talks about levitical priests offering animal sacrifices including the prince offering a sin offering for himself a bowl for a sin offering for himself and these are things that the book of Hebrews says there's no more of that so that my mind suggest that if there's another explanation other than a future one then that should be considered and I gave you one I I told you an explanation based on the passage itself yeah so what what we believe is that the the law Moses which core the course the core part of law Moses because Jeremiah 31 makes it very clear that the law inward Parts the law of Moses will continue what we believe is that the law of Moses is in abeyance okay that's it that's all that's that's what we believe but you believe it's gonna come back in the Millennium so even though Jesus has offered himself once for all time as the final sacrifice and he's a priest Forever After the order of mezc banishing the levitical priesthood you think those are going to be restored after Jesus comes back yes but I I don't think you fully understand the book of Hebrews with all due respect so okay okay maybe I don't but you do I guess go ahead okay so in in Micah 7112 it says in that day uh no actually no let's let's do Amos in that day I will raise up the Tabernacle of David that has fallen and close the breaches thereof and I'll raise up his runes and I will build it as the days of old and I will and I will bring again the Captivity this is verse 14 I will bring in the Captivity of My People Israel and they shall build the way cities and inhabit them so Amos is T Amos and Micah by the way Micah was talking to the Samaritans AKA Northern tribes Micah and and Amos make it very clear that there's that these tribes are going to be restored they're going to rebuild their cities when did that happen well we actually have the benefit of a quotation of that verse in Acts chapter 15 by James at the Jerusalem Council and he said you know Peter has told us how God visited the Gentiles and used him to do that first and to this agree the prophets and then he quotes his passage that God would raise again the booth of David the suo or the Tabernacle of David uh suo is the word there and it and it means either Tabernacle or Booth like in the Feast of booths suo is the Feast of booths now I believe that what he's saying and he goes on to say and and the Gentiles will be gathered in and of course that's what James said we've we've heard testimony from Peter that the Gentiles are being gathered in just like Amos said they would so he's seeing the Fulfillment of that in the Gentile mission of where did he say that it was fulfilled well he said this is what the he said this is what the prophets described okay that's kind of same thing so and then and he said see the booth of David is a play on words because the House of David refers to the dynasty of David but the House of David was so corrupt and dilapitated he's referring to it disdainfully as a booth of David David's Dynasty is now not a house but a booth and it's going to be built again in the Messiah Jesus is the House of David he's of the dynasty of David it received Glory again through Christ and the Gentiles as as 9 tells us are being gathered in and so at the Jerusalem Council they quoted that verse as a confirmation of what they had heard testimony about so they saw it as fulfilled in the church they didn't see it as something okay so so what you're saying is is that when so when it says in that day I'll raise up a tabernacle that's Fallen let me go to verse 14 um because actually verse 14 uh he doesn't quote okay so my question was on verse 14 I will I will bring in the Captivity of my people of Israel and they shall build the waste cities and inhabit them and they shall plant Vineyards and drink the wine thereof so actually no sorry he did quote that but my point is saying that is when when was that ever fulfilled are you saying that like you're not giving me a time stamp I want to know like when that was filed I want to know when like when they actually rebuilt the cities when they plant Vineyards like that's what I'm trying to figure out when did the northern tribes do that okay one thing you need to understand about me is I believe the apostles were inspired okay and I believe that Jesus in Luke 24:45 opened his disciples understanding so they would understand the scriptures that means that when they cited the scriptures they were giving the right interpretation it might not be what the rabbis thought but it was the one that Jesus opened their understanding to see so when they quoted that scripture I believe they understood it correctly now if they applied it to the first century their own time and saw fulfilled in their own time through the Gentiles being brought in as it says then they must have uh you know seen that as relevant now either it's relevant because uh you know Jews did come back from Babylon but not at that same time that they're talking about or else they spiritualized it which is not unlikely I mean Hebrews chapter 11 says that Abram was looking for a city whose Builder and maker was God well we don't read that in Genesis anywhere but the writer of Hebrews said what the city and the land he was looking for a spirit Heavenly country not a physical one you don't read Genesis saying that the Jews didn't know that but the writer of Hebrews no doubt an apostle uh saw it that way so I believe that these prophecies that the apostles took as being fulfilled in their time if they didn't happen in a physical sense they certainly could be seen as happening spiritually but they were intended to happen physically how do you know because it says it clearly and everyone at that took it as that way no no it doesn't say this is physical it does you're interrupting me Steve you have interrupted many times sir all right go ahead thank you all right and that's okay by the way but sometimes a little too much all right here's the deal is that what I'm trying to understand is that where is the timestamp of Isaiah 911 and4 being fulfilled what I do see in Acts chapter n chapter 15 is this in verse 14 Simeon has declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles to take out of them a people for his name and to this agree the words of the prophets is written and so here remember what I said earlier that I believe that the northern tribes is the primary focus and the southern tribes also and so what I believe is what James just did is he confirmed what I was telling everyone earlier in this discussion that the focus is the regathering of the northern and southern tribes that's that's clearly what I see and still even though James says this he's saying it agrees with he says and to this agree the words of the prophets okay he doesn't he doesn't say that this is fulfilled obviously I mean if you look at that it's like it's you can't take it that way so my question is this if was this verse in Amos 91 and 14 was it intended to be taken by those actual Israelites that were hearing Amos was it intended to them while they were dying and suffering outside of their land was they were they intended to take that as an actual physical promise well I don't know how they were supposed to take it they didn't live to see it so it didn't matter I mean Peter said it wasn't for them to know it was for Our Generation to know so you don't know I get it answer you I want to I want to ask you something you did so you said you said that he's actually talking about the Israelites coming back and yet is that is that what the Jerusalem Council was discussing isting coming back I don't think so I'm gonna jump in you're interrupting me you're asking me a question okay I'm gonna answer I just want to moderate so there was a little cross talk that I want to make sure just for the audience sake that they're they're hearing all the points hearing both sides so Steve can you reiterate maybe your last couple sentences there and then no worries David will give you plenty of time to respond so Steve over to you yes yes at the Jerusalem Council they were not talking about the return of the Jews uh from the northern kingdom uh they were talking about whether Gentiles had to become Jews that is prelates in order to be Christians that's the whole topic it'd be very strange when there's actually quite a few scriptures they could have quoted on the subject if they instead of quoting something on the subject quoted something on an entirely different subject usually when the apostles quote scripture in the context of a of a narrative or conversation they're usually quoting a scripture that they think confirms what they're saying and that's exactly what James said to this agree the prophets he quotes that particular Prophet so to what degree well the Gentiles have been brought in God's Gathering Gentiles to himself yeah that well Amos said something about that and so to that agree the prophets now if he was not talking about you know the Gentiles coming in then it was certainly irrelevant to the whole Council why would they quote that verse yeah again because what I what I expressed to you earlier was that the focus is the northern and the southern tribes James specifically gets a verse that was literally aimed at the northern tribes and if you and and many others if you guys realize that the word Gentile doesn't always mean non-israelite it will help you in clear things clear so many things up so here's let let me here's the thing I don't think it's appropriate for for you to say and ignore toit I don't think that I think I think that's actually when you look at church history here's the thing and I've watched so many your videos and I'm telling you ladies and gentlemen you make it very clear that you rely a lot on the church fathers and what early church thought the Book of Tobit was held by majority if not most early church fathers councils and even Jews that Tobit was held this scripture even Sir Isaac Newton here uses that as proof that there will be a future Temple why would you discredit all those other people that are far more more credible than you and I and say Tobit it's not worthy because kit Tobit specifically states that there will be a future Temple okay why would I uh because Frank I've not a Roman Catholic a Roman cath well interesting because Roman Catholics believe that we should trust the experts I don't I don't trust the church fathers like I said if I quote Church fathers it's only when I'm saying this is what I have learned from scripture and by the way the the church believed this for 1800 years so if I mean if that's relying on them no that's that's a a confirmatory point I always argue my point straight from scripture I never I never will try to make a point say oh you have to believe this because the church father said it I don't believe anything because a church father said it and I certainly don't believe anything because an intertestamental uh you know apoc apocryphal writer said it one one more thing Steve if I may and we're at time so David feel free to resp then Steve will you here's the thing Steve when I've watched a lot of your videos that's not what I'm getting you're using you're using the church fathers to give credibility to your argument you're looking at like look at the time span look at all these people that believe like this and uh let's dispensationalists usually are the ones who you you use the standard with and you say and then they disagree with that and and so that's where I think I have a huge problem with your approach and with your standards and I don't see them uh actually being able to withstand you know these types of scripture verses that I use so that's the thing that I bring up Tobit because if you're like hey Church fathers don't you said I don't trust Church fathers that contradicts a lot how do you use use them in your videos with all due respect I say that and I am done thank you very much awesome time Steve I really appreciate it all right calm down uh the fact is that if anyone who is listening has not heard my lectures I would invite you to listen to my lectures and see if David is correct see if I've ever supported a point by appealing to church fathers it is true that when I make my point from scripture I point out that the whole church for 1800 years saw it this way I only say that to point out that dispensationalism is an innovation it's a novelty and that's okay if it's if it's scriptural fine but the fact that the church didn't believe it for 1800 years is is something that my listeners are you know have every right to know but they should not judge whether it's true or not simply by that but by the scriptures so I I've never depended on a Church Father for anything um for any views of mine and certainly not uh you know for whether we should listen to the uh you know the Apocrypha or not I know the church fathers quoted the Apocrypha a lot too but I'm not them I'm not them and I don't I I accept inspired scripture I don't accept uninspired scripture as authoritative for Doctrine okay very good that concludes our six topics for tonight's Marathon debate I do appreciate uh you gentlemen and in the time you've given for this debate uh Steve and uh David we now have five minute closing statements just to wrap everything up in in a nice summary uh if if we feel there's something that's been left hanging this is a good time to address that as well and so Dave Avid you kicked us off with with your opening statement and so we're going to give you the first five minute uh closing and so whenever you're ready please let me know and I'll restart the timer hold up let me get it sorry all right timer is on let's go all right so again uh this was I think a very important debate many important topics we discussed uh we talked about the land we talked about who's the seed we talked about uh all of Israel who's all all Israel be saved we talked about um you know who's the Israel of God we talked about is is are the Jews the Flesh in Galatians and then we talked about the future Temple you know full circle and Steve thank you for agreeing to uh debate or really have a discussion with me even though I think at times it definitely did turn debate which is totally fine I want everyone to understand that uh you know I I my goal is like like Steve to go by what the scripture says simple I mean I want to know what Jesus said I want to go by what Jesus said I want to go by what what Paul said okay uh please meute yourself uh but one thing that's important though is that uh we need to also understand that there are things outside of scripture that we could use to help us understand what the scripture saying it's not that's not a news flash that's that's something that I think we all can agree on and an example would be like the church fathers which I think Steve um has heavily relied on especially when when you watch some of his discussions and a lot of Christians do too like this isn't NE necessarily that this is only Steve like this Steve and only Steve that's what he believes no what I'm what I'm trying to get people understand is hey let's take a look at your standards and let's apply them to yourself and how we do it so hopefully you've seen that demonstrated But ultimately I hope that you see that what I did is I used the scriptures okay I I reached out through history I looked at things like geography I tried to get a full understanding of what the scriptures uh specifically teach and God does have a future for Israel ethnic Israel the literal 12 tribes they will be restored saying things like well Ezekiel do You' what look do you actually think that's going to happen you really think there's going to be priests come back and the peace offerings are going to come back well that's what it says that's what it says you see here's here's the difference is I actually really do believe what the text says and I think what happens is we look like Christians will look at that and like that doesn't make any sense I don't know what to do with it and what happens is they move off into territories like where Steve went like many others went and I understand that I I understand the need as humans to go in those directions but what my goal is hopefully what I've convinced you is say look David at the end of the day he wants us to start in chapter one and progress through the rest of the book what I think many others have done and Steve included and is that we start like in chapter 33 we then impose our beliefs about that specific chapter onto the rest of the chapters preceding that that chapter I think that's ultimately if I was to explain what modern day Christianity looks like that's what I think it looks like what I seek to do is look at like Book of Amos and say hey Amos 9 very very clearly to that specific audience when I look at the sits and Leeman living setting that Steve most likely probably he should know what the sits and Lan is all about if I look at those people thought what they believed about that verse what those prophets thought how they viewed it that's where we need to start that's where we need to start the problem is is I think we Joseph Smith it and we say oh no there's a new revelation and we got to understand this new revelation to to over it over it it uh supersedes what what you thought it was teaching back there and I use that Joseph Smith demonstration because that's also what Steve has done when he's talking about the history of his sensationalism so I don't mean any disrespect don't please don't don't don't take it that way um and so it's important to understand that we need to start in chapter one and then progress progress through the rest of the book and respect and understand what ancient Judaism was all about and what it taught now if you look at this and you if you're honest with yourself and you actually think that Solomon actually had all this and you're not really sure but based upon Scholars whether or not they had this River or not you know if if you're thinking about things like well David I I I don't know if I should trust uh you know the scholars when it comes to Israel a god ladies and gentlemen just believe the book for what it says and literally I really honestly believe that you will come to the knowledge of the truth of what it's all about don't over complicate it read it simply and I think you're going to come to basic conclusions yes Steve we both were like I don't care and I heard him say he's like I don't care what the Church Father say yeah sometimes I don't care either but I think sometimes we should care sometimes we definitely should like like let's take notice of that let's take notice of what ancient judism says well I just want to know what the scripture says ladies and gentlemen and I'll close with this I got 10 seconds left just think about how we got this in our hand if we had that same attitude that that Steve has and many others we wouldn't even have this in our hand on all the the history that goes behind and how we got these words how we got the Greek text how we got the Hebrew text we wouldn't have any that if we followed Steve's standard follow my standard and I think at the end of the day you're going to know what the scriptures are talking seconds thank you everybody appreciate you okay David thanks for that five minute closing statement and Steve we're gonna hand it over to you now you also have five minutes for a closing statement the floor is your all right well you know uh David said that if people believed like me we wouldn't have the Bible actually it was people who believed like me that preserved the Bible for us um it wasn't until the 1800s that people stopped believing the way I do and the Bible was pretty well preserved PRI prior to 1800s so uh I think that's quite a wrong uh judgment there now what we've seen here is a good demonstration of two approaches to the Bible David said that he simply takes the Bible at what he says or believes what the Bible says well some parts of the Bible obviously and you know the difference between dispensationalism and historic Christianity is that historic Christianity believed that the Old Testament was written in a veiled way and that the New Testament break the code because the prophets didn't understand and they were told by God that they weren't to understand it was for Peter said his generation to reveal that Paul spoke several times of those things which he taught which were not revealed to the sons of men in Prior Generations but were revealed to the apostles and Prophets through the Spirit uh Paul said that when a Jew reads the Old Testament he's reading through a veiled heart and doesn't understand it Jesus opened the understanding of the disciples so they'd understand the scriptures so so we we take historic Christians take the New Testament as the code breaker uh they understood through the spirit and through the Revelation that the apostles had and that Jesus gave them what those prophecies were about and they never interpreted them in a dispensational way now the dispensation so historic Christians say we must understand the Old Testament through the lens of the inspired writers of the New Testament David has said repeatedly we need to understand our theology through what uh the Old Testament said and what the Jews back then thought it meant well but they they didn't know what it meant even the Pharisees who are the best best experts on the law in in their time Jesus said they're blind guides they don't know what they're saying talking about but Jesus did and so we see that you know the things that dispensation say are based on making a priority of the Old Testament for example take take the example of the temple David said that I don't go with the scriptures because Ezekiel said there be sacrifices and Levites and all those things and circumcision again whereas the New Testament says there's none of that ever going to be again so I take the New Testament as the authority David takes the Old Testament Authority and and doesn't believe what the New Testament says because it says that Jesus offered himself as one final sacrifice once and for all no more sacrifices uh the blood of bulls and goats can't take away sins uh there's no more levitical priesthood Christ isn't priest of a new order uh which canel out the eronic order Christ is a priest Forever After the order of mzc that's what the New Testament says that's not what the Old Testament says but the Old Testament can be understood through through that I mentioned that the temple in Ezekiel was a plan for a temple that could have been if the Israelites had been responsive and repentant but they clearly were not and therefore they missed it they they gave it up that would have been the second temple it doesn't describe a third Temple there's no mention anywhere in scripture of a third Temple so again the question we have to ask is are we going to use the New Testament to understand the old or are we going to take the Jews own understanding of the Old Testament and impose that on the New Testament and let it Trump the New Testament um everyone has to make his own decision but when Moses and Elijah stood on the out with with Jesus representing the law and the prophets in the Old Testament and Peter said hey let's keep them all here let's tents for all of them let's keep Moses and and Elijah and Jesus Moses Elijah disappeared and and God said about Jesus this is my son hear him it's Jesus and his Apostles that he inspired that are were to hear not Moses and Elijah not the Old Testament authorities now the Old Testament is still valuable when it's seen through the light of the New Testament obviously it's profitable Paul said that the old test was profitable but we don't offer sacrifices anymore we don't keep a diet like the Jews we don't keep the festivals we' better not try they we can't we can't go to Jerusalem and keep them because there's no Temple but we do see them the way the New Testament riters taught us to see them because Jesus taught them how to see them so that's that's my Roundup of what we' been talking about everything we've talked about uh I've supported the New Testament and David has supported the Old Testament and and his interpretation of New Testament was pretty all over the place and didn't really make much sense to me I I say without seeking to uh embarrass or criticize but he's an old testament Christian I'm a new testament Christian that's the difference between dispensations and historic Christians thank you perfect timing thank you very much Steve gentlemen I appreciate those closing statements and I must say that was an excellent uh exchange of uh points and ideas you gentlemen uh definitely gave us a debate to remember we were all myself and the audience uh thoroughly engaged and never bored very fast-paced and focused and nothing wrong with with a little passion at times with the topic this huge and quite controversial so I appreciate you both being willing to engage this topic in in debate so okay yeah Steve go ahead I just said thanks for inviting me oh yes my pleasure so what we have now are audience question question s what I'm going to do though is set a timer for 25 minutes uh as per the format because we have enough questions to probably keep us busy till same time tomorrow but we're gonna have to wrap it up at some point so again 25 minutes we'll get through as many questions as we can we've had an excellent audience uh well over 400 live the entire time and so what we typically do uh gentlemen Steve and David is let's say whoever the question's for Steve let's let's say it's for you obviously you get to answer first David will allow you to have a response and then we would give Steve the last word so three responses per question unless it's a question for both then just one response each maybe let's do our best to keep each response to two minutes and a final word of one minute if we can okay let's have some fun with these audience questions and let's start with our super chats and gifts for the debate I appreciate all the support for tonight's debate there's been a lot of anticipation for this okay Fen mcfallen all things eschatology I appreciate it uh $10 Super Chat question for B I'm assuming that's both and so Steve just ended with his closing David if you wanted if you didn't mind maybe we'll start with you for this one but let's work through it how do you interpret Matthew 1928 do you see see this as something past fulfillment or is it future yes it is 100% future uh in fact this is this is this this this whole chapter is is fascinating because it makes it very clear that Jesus teaches faith and works and it's key and the reason I'm mentioning that is because in verse 28 it extends back to uh verse uh verse 17 through 19 and 20 and and this is why it's important and Jesus said unto them first question is this then answered Peter and said unto him behold we have forsaken all and followed thee what shall we have therefore the question preceding that was this master what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life Jesus quotes Leviticus 185 he says this um if thou will enter into life keep the commandments so it's about entering into life it's about eternal life how do I gain eternal life and so when we get to verse uh 27 Peter then we get to the question behold we have forsaken all and followed thee in other words they've done everything the Rich Young Ruler was supposed to do and so Jesus saysh hey this is what you guys going to get and Jesus said unto them verely say unto you that ye which have followed me in the Regeneration when the son of man shall sit in the Throne of his glory ye also shall sit upon 12 Thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel that fits perfectly with ancient judaism's eschatology which is after the 12 tribes are restored after Gog and the enemy is defeated then God is going to Institute and and enter the 12 tribs into the world to come following in him into regeneration thank you David Steve the floor is yours go ahead okay well um the passage Jesus says in the Regeneration you 12 shall sit on 12 Thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel what is the Regeneration well that word is found only twice in the Bible it's found here and it's found in Titus 35 where it says that that we have been saved through the washing of regeneration meaning being born again so the Regeneration at least when Paul uses the expression refers to the the age of of regeneration the age of of of the church when people are born again now Jesus may have used it differently but we have no evidence that he did he used it if he used it the same way Paul did he's talking about the church age so sitting on 12 Thrones would be symbolic of reigning or being in charge governing he told them earlier when he's talking about their their role in the church in Matthew 18 he told them that whatever they bind on Earth will be bound in heaven whatever they loose on Earth shall be loosed in heaven and he said that's in the context of uh the church uh and the and in Matthew 16 said the same thing in the context of the church so it seems to be talking about the authority of the Apostles during the church age sitting on Thrones judging the 12 houses of Israel I believe that means that they are commission to reach out and represent the King Jesus to the 12 tribes this seems to be how they understood it too in Galatians Chapter 2 Paul said that Peter and James and John uh understood that they were to go to the 12 tribes to the circumcision and Paul and his companions could go to the Gentiles so it sounds to me like Jesus was defining their mission in the Regeneration that is the present age you know after Pentecost has being uh you know ruling over the the Jewish mission of the 12 tribes the circumcision who came to Christ and Paul of course and Barnabas said their mission was to the Gentiles the uncircumcision okay gentlemen thank you for the responses David and Steve it was a question for the both so let's move on to the next one Manny Jones I appreciate the support he says great debate Steve and SoCal and he says thanks Donnie my pleasure and he's got a question Manny again thanks for the support question is for you uh SoCal Preston does he so do you believe David there are two israels or Jews after Christ came is the body of Christ Israel go ahead yeah hey Manny thank you so much for super chatting and also felin thank you for donating and supporting Johnny's Ministry sorry I forgot to mention that so to answer your question does he believe do I believe that there are two israels absolutely not I believe that there's one Israel I don't believe I don't believe in such thing as a spiritual Israel and also uh as far as the body of Christ goes I mean when you really study the body of Christ when you understand that there's no circumcision there's no Jew there uncircumcision circumcision there no Jew or Gentile it fits nothing with what uh is spoken of in the Old Testament much of what Paul reveals about the body of Christ is is much of much of it it's a mystery it was hid in God before the foundation of the world not since but before and then also one thing I like to end on on that too is uh just going back to the last question um when Jesus was talking in Matthew 19 uh he wasn't speaking Greek thank you David Steve over to you yeah you get a response Jesus was not speaking Greek but I think you believe as I do that Matthew is inspired in writing in Greek and translating into Greek so he must have chosen the right words unless you think not um but I think so uh as far as whether there's two israels of course Paul said it unambiguously in Romans 9:6 he says they are not all Israel who are of Israel now by that he's saying there's an Israel within Israel those who are of Israel clearly refers to those who are descended from Jacob from Israel but not all of them are the Israel that Paul's talking about there's two israels now later he calls these uh this this smaller Israel he calls them vessels of Mercy in the same chapter in verse 23 and contrast him with the vessels of uh of Wrath which would be the Jews who rejected Christ and were destroyed in ad70 um but uh he when he talks about the vessels of Mercy this lesser Israel he says verse 23 and that he might make known The Riches of his glory on the vessels of Mercy which he has prepared beforehand for Glory even us whom he has called not of the Jews only but also of the Gentiles so the the the smaller Israel is the vessels of Mercy that have made up of Jews and Gentiles that would seemingly be the church and it agrees with what Paul said about is Israel being the Olive Tree made up of believing Jews and believing Gentile branches so yes there are two israels there's the ethnic Israel or or whatever and there's the the Church the true Israel which is the remnant of Israel I appreciate it Steve David the question was for you so you get the final minute go ahead yeah and by the way I do believe Matthew is inspired I have no question about that I guess my point is sometimes that emphasis is goes nowhere that's all and so uh when it comes to this idea that there's two israels again there's the scripture never ever one it never even says two israels that doesn't even come close to saying it um the closest maybe they could have got was Galatians 6:16 but we already demonstrated that gamic speaking there's two groups of people and we connect that with Romans 11 is clearly talking about mercy upon that uh that Israel and then lastly when you get to Romans chapter nine which is what uh Steve was uh quoting and not as though the the word hath taken n effect for they are not Israel which are of Israel I'm I apologize I'm not to fully answer this question I couldn't find my slides uh I have a I have a really good slide on this but essentially it's this is that I ask yourself is this a retical saying a lot of what Paul says he actually utilizes retical sayings one of them is in regards to Isaac there's a retical saying that specific says exact same thing in regards to Isaac so he is building upon what he's already been taught he's not actually I don't believe introducing a new thought and really here's what ultimately I see it as it's like hey you don't act American you're not American how many times if you heard that it's clearly obvious that that's what he's focusing on okay David thank you for that final word next one comes in from 21st century mind $10 Super Chat I do appreciate the this support it's a question for both since the word Gentile has been exegetically applied to the scattered Israelites does this bolster bolster the Israel only Doctrine for example the entire New Testament is about the salvation of first century Israel David why don't we start with you for this one Tristan thank you brother Tristan I actually had a a nice little debate Lively debate on feeling Channel and thank you brother for donating to Donnie much appreciated D he deserves every bit of it uh does it bolster the io position you know what I believe I I think IO co-opted British israelism and it's just a bunch of dudes you know I'm just that's a little tagged with trist he knows me so really uh but it would allow more it does um bring more credibility to this idea that a lot of what scripture is focusing on is specifically Israel and ethnic Israel and I think that's clearly evident when you look at scripture but do I take it as far as you do and and add much of full Predator ISM in there I do not and so when you do take a look at whether or not my my belief about the northern tribes representing uh these Gentiles a lot of times that Paul and James was mentioning in acts 15 when you understand the uses of the word and when you look at the specific verses that are used a lot of times almost every time it's going back to the northern tribes and it fits perfectly in it makes so much sense thank you David Steve the floor is yours well as I understand the Israel only Doctrine is that even the Gentiles who got saved were part of Israel too that is part of ethnic Israel they had been perhaps intermixed in Gentile Nations but they were still Israel and the fact that they got saved proves that they were part of ancient Israel at one time uh they just didn't identify as such they identified as pagans uh so that really the only people who ever are saved are people who are part of ancient Israel or descended from ancient Israel this I don't believe has any biblical Merit and uh I certainly don't think it has biblical Merit for David to say that all the that James was talking about Northern tribes um because if he was there'd be no question about whether they belonged uh the question was whether the Gentiles belong or not now I believe that um you know the Romans who were the believing branches from the Gentiles who were grafted the Romans were not Israelis I mean one could argue that they were but that's that's arguing from from The Ether uh you know Paul didn't seem to know they were Israelis uh and James gives no evidence that he knew this in fact no one in the New Testament gives any evidence of this this is simply like you say it's a kind of like Anglo israelism it's just an extension of Anglo israelism the idea that the 10 tribes migrated to the British Isles and became the British people this is not something the Bible has any support for thank you Steve okay we got another one for the both of you and another one from 21st century mind really appreciate all the support for tonight's debate and so Steve maybe for this one we'll start with you and so he asks in Romans 11 how do we justify saying that Paul and his audience interpreted the salvation of all Israel being a much future spiritual Israel that exists Beyond in their first century Generation Well I'm not sure exactly where this come from but I don't believe that Romans 11 mentions any future Israel uh Paul talks about uh the branches that were broken off uh because of unbelief well he speaks in the past tense those those Jews in his time and previously who had not believed they were broken off now he said if they don't remain in unbelief they can come back in but that's still the same ones he's talking about the ones that were broken off in his generation he's not he he mentions no future generation of Jews anywhere in the passage this is what dispensationalists do they they turn Romans 11 into a prophecy about future of Israel and Paul never does so in fact Paul's whole argument is in verse five I think it's five he says even now there is a Remnant that according to the election of Grace you no he's not talking about the future he's talking about now that Christ has saved Israel if we mean the true Israel of which not all Israel are of them the the faithful remnant of Israel has come to Christ that's what Paul's saying that's what is true and uh he's he he's simply talk about what has happened he doesn't make any predictions about what will happen I appreciate it Steve David floor is yours yeah Tran thank you again for supporting Donnie is a great question there in in the world of British israelism which IO co-opted uh knowingly or unknowingly uh there is no such thing as of spiritual Israel and I agree there's no such thing as of spiritual Israel uh in Romans chapter 11 it specifically is focusing on the northern and southern tribes in fact it's interesting when you even start to take a look at the preceding chapters and then after it's clearly evident that that's that's what the focus is especially even going back to Romans chapter one and two the verses that are used so it's it's it's a big deep study one day I look forward to doing it on my channel So-Cal Preston but it's definitely deep but and ultimately it's this is that in chapter verse five even so that is present at this time there is also Remnant according to election of Grace when you go back and St when you go back and study what was done in Elias the again the focus was the northern tribes it's interesting again Paul's tying it all in together also the one thing that needs to be understood is that when it says in verse 11 I say I say then have they stumbled that they should fall God forbid but rather through their salvation is come unto the Gentiles for to provoke them to jealousy you have to understand ancient Judaism you have to understand the sits and lean if you don't understand ancient Judaism if you don't understand the mind that they were thinking of you will not understand what's going on here in this chapter and I mean that and the reason is is because the way they view the northern tribes was like they're done they're not even G they're totally gone and salvation is only for the Jews that is Sal that that is specifically quoting John 4:22 that salvation was for the Jews and then when you get to the uh verse 17 it says this and if some of the branches be broken off and thou being a wild tree W grafted in among them and with them partak us of the root of the fatness and of sorry of the Olive Tree grafted in simply means and they and that salvation is come so when this idea that hey salvation's come to Gentiles I think we over even complicate even British Israeli ISS and even dispensation ISS over comp over complicate Romans 11 but if you look at it through the mindset of an ancient Jew you're going to understand that chapter very well okay David thank you and thank you gentleman Stephen David for for your responses now we got one specifically for you Steve this comes in from pseudonym $5 super chat again thank you so much for all the support and the question is this is it your position that John is wrong describing a third Temple and animal sacrifices or will you say animal sacrifices slash a third Temple is not possible well I I don't see John saying anything about animal sacrifices uh the question must be about uh Revelation since certainly there's nothing in John's other writings about it but there's no mention of a animal sacrifices in John's Book of Revelation either the only mention of the temple in Revelation is in chapter 11 veres 1 and two which I believe is about the second temple I don't believe it's about a third Temple I think it's Rel relative to the destruction of the second temple uh we do have John saying in chapter 21 that in the New Jerusalem there's no Temple there so if we're expecting the temple to be built uh to be in the New Jerusalem well I guess we're out of luck because John said there's not going to be one but none of these passag even even chapter 11 uh if you took it of a third Temple there's no specific mention of animal sacrifices you get those only in Zechariah 14 and Ezekiel chapter 44 and 45 pretty much thank you Steve David over to you any thoughts PUD thank you for donating the Donnie much appreciated and great questions here's the thing is that what we see often is that we take chapter 33 we impose what we think that means and then we impose it back on the preceding chapters that's not the way you do proper research so and what I mean by that is for example uh Steve has one view of Hebrews and this is the way he views it and then so he's like there that's where it's at now I'm gonna go and pose that I don't know any reputable scholar or historian that does that I do not know help me send them send me the link whatever you got to do but here's the deal and this is key and I and and I mean this is that what we have to do is we have to take verses like Micah versus versus in Micah versus Amos versus in Ezekiel and even in Tobit instead of just saying can't happen because I already know what happens in chapter 33 it's like maybe you don't understand chapter 33 properly okay thank you David Steve you get the last word question was for you go ahead yeah see this this illustrates again what I was saying the difference between dispensationalist and and historic Christianity is they think we're supposed to read the Old Testament uh first and then impose it on the New Testament it's inter he says we don't we don't do research that way well if we're doing historical research we do many times later events give meaning to earlier events we see a war going on and uh and we don't find out until later you know what what really the causes of that were or who really was behind that what conspiracy was involved we see many movies for example that uh you know have some twist at the end and suddenly once you see the Twisted in everything that was before starts to make sense in a different light and that's what history is history is uh a narrative which had its final Revelation at the end Paul said that what he was writing was a mystery that had not been revealed to earlier generations of of prophets and and Jews but was revealed to the Christian Apostles and Prophets through the spirit so uh yeah I would say the final Twist of the plot is given at the end and we look back on it um you know we look at at what happened before that realized oh that's what this was meaning that's what this is leading up to that's at least how I believe is the right way to do biblical study Steve thank you for that last word now SoCal looks like pseudonym has one for you and again ponm appreciate the support here and so he's asking you David is Israel a church or location or belief can we answer this without saying spiritual and use scripture AKA Kings or church fathers Etc any thoughts David yes soon and by the way I'm loving your questions now brother really good and uh thank you for supporting Donnie uh and your to your question Israel a church or a location or belief can we answer this without saying spiritual uh yes I mean it acts chapter 7 makes it very clear that uh the church the church in the wilderness so again uh using that as Steve did earlier in regard ards to you know seeing hey see the church in Israel are one and the same that's not the way you need to do it when I say the church the body of Christ I'm distinguishing it from the church which is in the wilderness I'm distinguishing it from the nation of Israel and it's very important that you do that as far as the church fathers go I don't have any support that I know of right now on top of my head from the church fathers and one thing I I I do think is interesting is that you know Steve just said that uh you know ancient I think he said uh historic Christian historic Christianity you've done that twice already and yet you're the same person and I say this fairly with all due respect Steve you said I don't trust a church fathers Church fathers are what we look to when we're trying to understand what is historic Christianity thank you David and Steve floor is yours go ahead well I don't know how you can think that appealing to all of church history is an appeal to the church fathers in particular or depending on what they said throughout church history Scholars and and reformers and Catholics and church fathers believe lots of different things I'm just pointing out that all Christians thought a certain way about things until a certain point that doesn't make it right I made that very clear it doesn't make it right but it just happens to be true now uh as far as what does Israel mean is it a church or location or whatever the word Israel is used lots of ways in the Bible the first usage is of a man a man named Jacob whose name was changed to Israel a little later before he a nation his family was called Israel because when Dina was raped it said this shouldn't have happened in Israel well Israel was his family uh and later on he had 12 sons who gave rise to 12 tribes the 12 tribes of Israel these went into captivity in Egypt when they came out God brought them to mount son and made a nation out of them so now they become not just a family or an ethnic group they become a nation based on a covenant um later on there is a a split in the nation and only the northern kingdom was called Israel and the southern was called Judah in the New Testament Paul says there's even uh an Israel within Israel uh so the word Israel can be used a lot of different ways but uh yes I believe that Israel can refer to location that's another way it used to speak of the land of Israel so the word has what eight different meanings in the Bible um which is interesting because it means that when you look at the particular teachings about Israel in scripture you to realize okay this is which way is this using is this speaking ethnically is this speaking about the land is this speaking about the country with the government like we have now in 19 since 1948 a government over there called Israel that didn't exist before 1948 I mean or are we talking about the Israel within Israel this is the challenge that faces biblical exites and it's not it's a fun one to face it's not impossible to face it but we have to make sure we know that it's there uh dispensationalists often don't seem to know that Israel just means one thing to them it means the Jews and that's simply not the way Israel is used in scripture thank you Steve David question was for you so you get the last roughly minute response go ahead so the specific verse S that I was referencing is acts 7:38 this is he that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the Mount Si and with our fathers who received the Lively oracles to give unto us that's the law of Moses that's uh acts 7: 38 and here's the thing when you take for example Paul's usage of the word Israel every single time it uses it let's push out Galatians 6 let's say fine Galatians 6 you can that's theves for a second every single other time he uses the word Israel it's it is there's no dispute that it's talking about the People Israel the nation of Israel those who are descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel but when you get to a verse like Galatians 6 chapter 16 all of a sudden it moves over to some spiritual Israel and yes when we look at historic Christianity I am actually disagreeing with historic Christianity in this in this position to think that there's no such thing as spiritual Israel yeah there's no such as spiritual Israel and it's and and I point that out because I realize that I need to express to people where I agree and where I disagree but see here's the thing when I say if I was to say historic Christianity versus you know David's belief you're clearly you're clearly using uh a double standard and so what I want people to understand is we have to respect I think the church fathers what they believe it's very important but then we also have to look at you know what was the sits in lean how did Paul use it within his day and what was the culture like and what what what what were they thinking when we do that we're going to really understand the word Israel and how it's properly used in scripture okay thank you for the final word David and and okay we're basically at 25 minutes and we got our last question here so I appreciate uh the answers you've provided David and Steve and it looks like it's another question for the both of you David why don't we start with you for this one so 21st century mind $5 Super Chat appreciate the support as always which passage of scripture directly speaks of another Israel Beyond 70 AD without adding commentary words and Concepts to the text David floor is yours if I was Tristan thank you for supporting donning by the way if I was to use just one one and only one it would be Tobit chapter 14 veres 4-6 and it says this go into media my son for I surely believe those things which Jonas the prophet spake of Nineveh that it shall be overthrown and that for a Time peace shall rather be in media and that our Brethren shall lie scattered in the Earth from that good land in Jerusalem shall shall be desolate in the house of God and it shall be burned and shall be desolate for a time and that again God will have mercy on them and bring them again into the land where they shall build a temple but not like to the first there's a second temple right there coming until the time of that age will be fulfilled and afterward they shall return from all places of their cap captivity and build up a Jerusalem gloriously and the house of God shall be built in it forever with glorious with a glorious building and as the prophets have spoken thereof and All Nations shall turn and fear the lord God truly and shall bury their idols and lastly Tristan you you you I know that you love Sir Isaac Newton and Sir Isaac Newton he used this verse in his book of observations upon the prophecy to prove that there will be a future Temple I think if Isaac Newton can use it I think I can use it too I think he was right on that for sure thank you David Steve floor is yours go ahead well actually that's kind of stunning if Isaac Newton can use that scripture I can too and that makes it right it's actually not even scripture it's toit so I mean here's the thing uh I I don't think there's any Scripture that mentions Israel after ad70 uh I believe that what Jesus said in ad70 Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies in that generation his own generation and uh and it says that'll fulfill all things that are spoken or all things that were written will be fulfilled in that so it seems to me like there aren't anything written about after that about Israel um about tobat we have to remember that tobat and the other intertestamental books provided the views that are later referred to in the New Testament as the traditions of the elders uh the traditions of the elders are were formed from the intertestamental books like Enoch and and Tobit and other intertestamental books now of course Jesus didn't keep the traditions of the elders and they they criticized him for that that and he said well full well you reject the word of God to keep your Traditions so if you if if the Traditions that formed among the Jews in the last two centuries before Christ came formed the view of the Pharisees whom Jesus referred to as blind guides uh then I don't I don't really see any reason why Tobit should be considered I mean I it looks to me like tobat did predict a third Temple but he wasn't inspired he doesn't claim to be inspired the Jews don't believe he was inspired no one calls him a prophet so I mean if I said there's G be a third Temple and I wrote a book that said so and someone quoted me how would that be different than Tobit saying it all right Steve thank thank you very much for that response that was a question for both and so we'll wrap it up there the Q&A has flown by the debate really has flown by considering we've gone three and a half hours fantastic endurance I'm impress Steve and uh David and I want to thank you gentlemen again for the time you've given to us tonight as if it wasn't for the generosity of really just all our guests that appear on this channel we wouldn't have so many of these thought-provoking debates to enjoy and so why don't we get some real quick final words final thoughts David let's start with you again I appreciate you doing this and final words Donnie again thank you brother I really appreciate you you've done a great job moderating this debate and uh you know if I uh Steve if I came across to you as someone who need the calm down uh please understand that I came from a place of you know uh genuine passion and obviously you and I both take this subject very seriously you and I both are different personalities we express ourselves differently and if anything what the audience should judge they should judge uh you know the the scriptures I've used the words the logic the con and hopefully you will see that when you start from chapter one and you move forward you'll see it and then uh please keep supporting Donnie uh his channel I think is underrated uh he you know his channel is doing far more better things than a lot of other channels out there he's keeping the ministry alive when it comes to creationism and just getting us in studying the word and getting on the mat and doing it so Donnie again always kudos to you Steve and look Steve I respect you you've you've been through you've been through a lot you you've debated a lot of people so it's it's hands down it's an honor to be able to debate you and the fact that you accepted this offer I fully appreciate it and I hope you see that and so uh if you ever come down to IB I'll I'll take you to El Tapo and get you some tacos sir thank you David I appreciate the encouragement and uh your final words you know you and uh Steve both came together here and I got to say gave us a debate to remember possibly one of those go-to debates on this topic of Israel where people can uh watch digest analyze and hopefully come to an objective opinion on the topic Steve uh it really was an honor and a privilege to have you here on the channel I hope you enjoyed your time on on the standing for truth debate platform I'll hand it to you some final words final thoughts well I may not be known uh to people who watch your channel regularly so I just would like to say if you're interested in hearing more of uh my teaching I have 1500 lectures mp3s and a lot of them on YouTube also uh at my website thenarrowpath.com I have a radio show been on every day for 27 years every weekday uh called the narrow paath and uh it's a Q&A question uh Q&A program all for an hour a day uh every weekday I take questions you can listen to that at the website or on any of about 80 some odd stations around the country but the website again is the narath tocom my name is Steve Greg if you look me up on YouTube you'll find hundreds of YouTube uh my teaching on various things including these subjects but I teach on virtually everything my verse by verse teaching through the entire Bible verse by verse can be found at the website as well so I teach on anything that's in there and uh this is only one subject that I've debate I've debated many others but I appreciate the chance to do it I didn't know about this channel until Donnie contacted me and asked me to be here and I'm glad it turned out so well thank you for having me I appreciate it it's my pleasure uh Steve you're very well-rounded so I appreciate that uh you and David both I have the relevant links David to your new YouTube channel you started just putting out content and Steve uh to your website with unlimited content that is so true and also your uh your YouTube channel so God bless you Brothers Steve and [Music] David