you do modeling as you can see well yeah You' got class right here come on oh look at that internet makes it easy for people to say stupid stuff you know get punched in the face without getting punched in the face I think mine is the ladder here's where I sit you I'm kidding nothing wrong with that all right good morning everybody so welcome back to the base Indonesian talks today I'm with a very special guest all the way from the United Kingdom from the University of Nottingham please welcome Mr buus muladi thank you for joining us today thank you for being here a pleasure all right then how are you today good good it's great it's a very hectic morning um of course but this is a beautiful set really with all the holes I guess so I guess that makes the beauty you know it reminds me of you know this show called Between Two Ferns between two FMS no it's hilarious it's Zach gal oh Zach galifinakis a strange character is Zach gakis yeah what a difficult to pronounce name yeah I think it's Greek right so the topic today we're going to talk about industry 4.0 and its impact towards Indonesian Politics the reason I picked this topic was because I saw some of your videos where you talked about AI integration in Indonesian Society right and you also spoke about politics quite a few times and so I was like okay let's combine the best of what I know of you into two and then let's extrapolate from that right so industry 4.0 is a conversation that is normally confined in University classrooms that's right yeah it's not really a public discussion you you can find some videos of it in YouTube but not a lot of people watch it maybe about like what mostly like 200,000 people watch a single video of like industry 4.0 but I'd like to shine light into this topic why because I I think uh the Industrial Revolution was an important uh event in our history and now it's happening again through industry 4.0 yeah and obviously the Industrial Revolution uh impacted politics in such a way that it can never be it can it is irreversible industrial revolution has gave birth to capitalism socialism wouldn't you agree with me well there's a lot to unpack there I mean indeed I I I don't really remember when I talk about industry 4.0 in a public setting but I do talk a lot about it in classrooms as is mostly discussed then so let me give you a background story about why I this issue is really dear to me I mean the universities in the UK they are having problems when it comes to Preparing their students to be uh relevant in a real world and you know some of the students because I teach at engineering faculty and these students some of them have industrial placements industri placements is whereby students can take one year off their classrooms and and get real life experiences in the industries and then what we do uh because universities is measured when it comes to the uh salary of their graduates and then so the feedbacks from the company that host them during their placement is really important and then among the most um mentioned feedbacks um is the ability of students to code I teach at chemical engineering chemical engineering traditionally don't code they just design factories they just design pipelines and they do this traditional engineering disciplines but they are all and I don't think this is exclusive to chemical engineering I think students across the board of engineering and even Beyond engineering they all need to code and then so the department then created a new module of which I am the convenor so I teach Advanced computational method and it's right within the first week I would explained about why we are here you have to do that in the UK here yeah well we here because I say so um so we're here and this Industrial Revolution is a is a terrifying term because it's um anything Revolution related is terrifying of course because it it uh implies displacements there a revolution of the French Republic for example okay so um to some Layman here I would like to explain a little bit about what what it entails so the first Industrial Revolution is when you found steam engine yes and I I and I teach in the UK and that's where it was found M and it created very different ways of making products and the way people do economics and ser Services Industries also changes accordingly and then couple of hundreds of years later um electricity was found right and then certainly you know no longer use horses or steam engines you use um electrified um cars even electric cars by the way isn't as new as we think about it there there electric cars couple of hundred years ago you know it has never been mass produced but there are electric cars way before Tesla okay and then the internet came about and that's the third industrial revolutions and then we are now here uh at the so-called fourth Industrial Revolution which is a term coined by some German Economist made Popular by CL schwap at World economic Forum uh which pretty much an amalgamation of the virtual the digital the physical and therefore biological World Allin one the difference between this Industrial Revolution and the past revolutions are that it shapes Society in a very different way in a more integrated way compared to the previous ones I mean we were cyborgs before but now we're even more cyborg I do agree with that we live in a cyber Punk yeah yeah yeah I mean you're I mean I'm sorry you're wearing eyeglasses that's like a cyborg thingy already you know you could otherwise technically yeah you can say that because it uh because like I have visual impairments right and then I'm using a device that helps me you know uh that helps me get through my impairment yeah yeah that's right and so I we developed this new modules and the mod is about how do you how do you get behind the AI system how do you instead of being just users of AI be able to code something resembling an AI uh system and then how do you comprehend physical equations physics equations and the governing equations behind some Engineering Process and be able to code those processes processes and simulate it with computers instead of just relying on some blackbox models um many Engineers Now call themselves modelers you know I'm a I'm a modeler I do modeling you do modeling as you can see well yeah well You' got class right here come on who look at that I um you haven't watched no I mean the point is you you you you model physical processes and Engineering processes using simulational tools my class is about teaching students some basic principles to model that which is the most important it's not the most important at least it's one of the most important critical skills that in order to um welcome industry 4.0 as good as you can students must have so so that's a little bit about 4.0 yeah so let's narrow let's narrow it down to into the Realms of politics right and uh we've talked about the back ground of Industry 4.0 and 3.0 2.0 1.0 how it impacted our society H and our concern today is regarding how how do you think it will impact like the Indonesian politics because uh the way I see it it has already impacted us in a bit cuz like one such example is how content creators are basically politicians now like they sell they sell ideas through their content they collaborate with political parties to sell their ideas through their content like that's that's one tangible way of us measuring the impact of the industry 4.0 through politics but do you think uh this digitalization of our society is good for Indonesia Industrial Revolution well dig digital economy digital behavior is just a byproduct of what industry 4.0 is all about right this digital economy everything is done by means of online commer Etc and certainly in terms of pragmatic politics everybody just flock into this um e platforms okay but I mean I just got back from provinces some provinces in remote islands in Indonesia oh really you know you can find places in Indonesia where there's this in where there's still industry 1.0 oh yeah you know there's some islands and remote areas in Indonesia where they have even use electricity yet oh so yeah that's not exaggerations there there's still people like that so when we talk about industry 4.0 I fear that we're a little bit on a privileged position here because we're sitting in Jakarta of course yeah at the moment people there hasn't really found ways yet to get into this digital economy uh because of the inequal access of um digital gadgets digital aparatus like cell phones for example um um so that's what I'm worried about not not so much about the pragmatic politics and the change of politicians communicate with their constituencies that goes without saying of course they're going to utilize cell phones and everything and well I'm seg going too many ways here I mean if you if you look at the some of the studies by some MIT researchers I couldn't site but it's really reliable studies um fake news propagated through um online platforms or social medias they propagate six times faster than than actual truth all right so this is the change in politics and because everybody uh bar those people in the remote areas that don't have cell phones can get this information in real time it really changes the behavior of the politics these days and you could see that even governor elections are really utilizing this really same methodologies as the presidential election that we just witnessed I'm not going to name names obviously I'm not going to name um potential candidates running with the strategies play it safe I'm yes I want to keep my job thank you very much understandable no but they're all using this they're using this I'm not really concerned about that they do whatever they can it's a pragmatic politics anyway what I'm really concerned about is that unlike the previous industrial revolutions things are a lot more volatile this time around things changes a lot quicker uh for example uh from the time steam engine was found so no from the time steam engine that's right until electricity electricity was found I think there's a gap of 2 300 years right and then from the time electricity was found and permeated the industrial World until internet was found that was just about 20 30 years you see that's a one order of magnitude speed up it's rapid rapid very rapid so what do you think happens in between the time where electricity was found and sorry internet was found until the amalgamation of this virtual digital um Internet of Things way of doing things it's going to be within years if not months things changes really rapidly and that's why you can see big companies for example occupying the top 10 list of top companies like Coca-Cola Nokia couple of years ago right and they stayed there uh as part of the haimon for about 10 years nowadays you can see the volatility companies comes and go yeah like Nvidia is not top one Nvidia who would have thought I mean I've been using Nvidia for GPU processing of course right throughout my PhD and now they're like number one companies yeah soon they will be probably toppled by something else yeah that's that's just the rule of you know change yes yes I'm going to talk about destru but the question is are we ready are we ready to integrate that volatility that uh uncertainties in our ways of life um I argue that Indonesia is not ready yet simply because of the inequal access to get into digital economy so you would see a lot more inequalities being developed unlike in the other industrial revolutions again because nowadays it's not just internal factors that plays the role in the economics there are external factors geopolitics yeah right universities for example now we started open the doors for foreign universities to build campuses in Indonesia yeah like monach like mon universities going be followed by Lancaster um deak in universities King College you know King College going to open here in Indonesia not not a full-blown campus but they're going to start delivering their products yeah yeah you see so you can't you can say no to those and then are we ready to to embrace this really volatile um change and Dynamics in in the economy now there are ways to I mean first of all Industrial Revolution like the other Revolution is just what so-called creative destruction it's a term well known in the economics uh by the guy called Joseph Schumer um that says that in order for economy to grow you have to make room for new technologies and Innovations and then so people will get displaced jobs will be displaced um but then that's inevitable you have to start from a blank slate every time to make room for for new technologies and that's considerably um important for governments across the world to get a good strategy to comprehend that but it's a force of good General Al speaking generally speaking generally because you know at the time where horses were about to be displaced by steam engines can you imagine what the the the the uh horse industry for example were reacting to that they they would they would definitely do everything to stop it and remain relevant that's why and then some governments do protectionist economy try to protect special interests yeah and then the argument at the time was that where are this going to where are this people going to uh go for jobs then if you replace everything with steam engine but the history has shown that the creative destruction usually is always the force of good people will always find a way to get other jobs the problem is not whether or not industry 4.0 is going to get you more jobs or anything the problem is inequalities because the inequalities is going to create some other plethora of societ societal problems that I fear is what we are not ready of yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah we uh we talk about inequality we talk about Vol volatility yeah and then we talk about how Revolution is uh it is it is a disruptive it's it's disruptive in nature and those are very those are basically challenges that we face yeah and whatever like when we meet with the full when we realize industry 4.0 in in Indonesia right yeah now what do you think are the political challenges that we might come across okay politics don't stand alone there's no notion as just politics it's politics economy politics and Society you know because the way politics behave is depending on the way constituencies behave yeah yeah yeah right what I fear is this it's it's as if you now have the tools of the Gods and the people are still foolish you know can you imagine if the fools have the tools of the Gods you know nowadays it's very easy to fake your identity yes it is and it's very easy to impersonate somebody else of course and this virtual world really changes the way people behave and thus the way politics behave um you could troll now a lot easier than you did before like Mike Tyson said for example internet makes it easy for people to say stupid stuff they not get punched in the face without getting punched in the face yeah exactly and the problem is that you know if you troll if I troll I I am one of the trolls by the way but if I troll at least I put my identity forward oh yeah I do criticisms and people know it's B muladi yeah all right but a lot more for better or worse uh but a lot more other people don't put their identity forward but surveys take that right and people who who are in the community take that as a legitimate input and shape their opinion opinions get shaped a lot easier with virtual um advancement MH and I sense that um this is going to going to be interesting in a really negative way oh yeah do share yeah because you when when you have this sea of uh false information permeated so quickly usually you have competing forces that tries to balance it out people in their confusion in trying to find out what is the true story would resort to these competing forces they would look at people who occupy certain institutions that perhaps exud some standards of Truth like the universities for example right or at the the public are confused about whether or not they have to use masks or they have to drink ginger tea whatever to uh to get through Co for example no ginger tea but they're not going to read Journal papers right they're not going to read Journal papers they're not going to go to UGM classes they're just going to listen to somebody who has the professorship from ITB from univers Indonesia from other universities that they think Bears the standard of Truth m i see you see what I mean yeah I see what you mean the problem with today's Revolution 4.0 is that this really rapid growth in the way opinions are being shaped is not balanced out by the strengthening of the competing forces you see the standard of Truth has been denigrated it's really compromised let me give you an example for example this um retraction of full professorship by 11 academics from lambu Murat universities I've heard of that I I think I heard of that case it seems familiar yeah yeah yeah some maybe you've heard about some academics uh being found out plagiarizing some of his the works yeah definitely right and then turned out that he published so productively because he he attacked some predatory journals yes and also the case about pan pan that's right pan that that's the more most concrete example yeah that is very concerning I don't think public really knows how dangerous that is what it does is actually destroys all the standards of this truth Bearer yes I yeah I agree it creates uh it it discredits people who deserve the the the standard of truth yes yes yes the people in the system certainly lose all the incentives to get up the hierarchy based on competence but the damage in the society is that this pan issues leave the society void of any standard of Truth ah I see all right so without that and without the authority from religious uh beliefs because they're also corrupted in some degrees in some degrees they are left with no devices at all they have no idea how to comprehend this news against the other news and which one is true and which one is not what you see is a very in thermodynamic terms you see this very high pressurized uh system close system where people just scrambling for um anything they can they can get is this is this what they call as post truth yeah post truth is an anecdotal term um that says that uh hoax or scams they spread a lot faster than real truth because people believe what they want to believe these days yeah if you if you got if you if you if you look at the system as a close system where people people moves yeah their opinion the way their opinion shapes it's like very fastly moving Brownian motions they just keep on colliding with each others and this is untenable and people when give when given no standard of Truth with Will resort to tribalism yes they will result to tribalism and eventually fanatism and violence yeah yeah I mean we see that we see that Trend after the fall of the Roman Empire it seems like people uh people like to localize themselves and then you know suddenly we have a feudalism exactly exactly Roman Empire was a republic before he was an Empire yeah it was right and then it it it's so it's so crazy how people don't really learn from history of course it's so crazy that's how we progress forward we learn from history right if you uh like say if you uh if you up inside a romantic relationship obviously you would learn what the happened I've done a few yeah you I had my shares you had your shares right I hope she's watching I hope so yeah no Roman Roman um was a republic before the Rome was a republic before and then they had this really sound currency they have uh currency back with gold yeah and then they want to go to war and they want to keep advancing they want to annihilate other cultures and then they need money to do so uh and they need technological advances to do so and all of this needs money they have their own share of revolutions too and then what do they do they dilute their currencies how do they do that well for every coins that are supposed be supposed to be like the Olympic gold back in the days it's like 100% gold now it's probably 1% in 10 years it'll be just chocolate bars with gold Flea on you know what I mean and they think they can create wealth by fooling people by diluting the amount of gold in every coin they produce but eventually uh as the government grow bigger and bigger and then they get out of hand when it comes to spending uh there's just barely any gold left in the coins and you think you can fool people by creating wealth out of the thin air but what happened is that inflation shoots through the roof and then the the prices of Commodities they they Skyrocket it expensive right and then the public um create and it creates public uh soci societal dissonance within the public and then there's chaos and you know what follows after every chaos strong man yes of course strong man Julius Caesar came to the Sur he was a strong man and then Rome fell into Empire again yes and then Augustus took over exactly and then you know what ends up with every Empire's Bloodshed of course right when a when a when a society fully Embraces imperialism as its main tenant of doing about their own Society well Bloodshed is expected to follow it's like that with all the empires I mean every country that slaps their name with Empire they're they're not they're not immediately uh an adherent towards imperialism and some countries that do not even have Empire in its name they practice imperialism like the United States practices imperialism in a way right yeah and this is one way of that uh and I see that there's since the Industrial Revolution M because the rapid growth of Technology Innovation and goods are being made you see uh it seems like countries are able to consolidate more and more power internally and externally through Force there seems to be rise of Wars between the 18th century all the way to the 20th century because people seem to people seem to find ways and creative ways to bring forth destruction and kill each other and blow each other apart right yeah it's never ending yeah but my question here is how do you think industrial 4.0 is going to affect the government in terms of controlling Society right yeah how how do you think like the government is going to control Society or spread imperialism because like industrial 4.0 when we talk about industrial 4.0 we talk about virtuality yes we talked about we talk about the virtual realm landscape yeah and obviously what happens in it you have stuff like cyber sec mhm right cyber warfare right and you also have surveillance Mass surveillance and obviously this gives a country way more Avenue to control their people and exert more control externally outside of their borders so how do you think like countries are able to exert there's two things here like your first question is about how how does industrial revolutions uh 4.0 affect the way governance is being governed yes government's being governed um it reminded me of this book why Nations failed Daniel aimu some with some other economists basically categorizes uh government into two kinds of Institutions one is inclusive institutions the other one is extractive institution uh inclusive institution means that the government um uh creates opportunities for everyone it's a very just Ben benevolent government all right the extractive one place the power in the hands of the few um for the former for the inclusive kinds of institution industry revolution industrial revolution 4.0 is a good Force M right it creates people with more wealth um and it's human Centric in a way maybe you've heard about Society 5.0 oh yes yeah the Japanese came up with that right the Japanese came up with that probably because of their aging populations of course yeah right and then so um incl iive institutions would uh cope with 4.0 a lot better the extractive one on the other hand will have the corrupt Tendencies of using this technology as means to consolidate power uh I guess the question would be why shouldn't they mhm right they have all the devices in their hands and power is uh Power is power feels good mhm probably we can be so um critical about it because we're not in position of power I don't know if you are in position of power probably you think the same way too and that's why Empires Fall by the way because even though you have a benevolent King your children might not be complacent complacencies right uh that's um or you know whomever says that they're good people let them be careful a little bit so that so so that so and this is seg way to the second part of your question if we have an extractive institutions as governments um then that added by the fact that we are unequal when it comes to access to digital pareses and and gadgets that will be so enticing for the ruling class to then utilize this masses of Technology the tools of the Gods for example to manipulate their way into consolidating Power yeah right I don't really believe that there is a binding morality uh at a nation scale you know those people who say that they're men of God or man of morality for example tends to disappoint us so let's look Beyond moral arguments here what I see is that there is no good reason not to misuse those technological advances so people have to be really worri about it I'm not talking about existential threats like the AIS was going to be you know some Terminator like creatures that's that's not one of my concerns but that is this one the one where uh people will use the tool of gods to continue to down to consolidate power yeah cuz right now the way I see it uh it has always been a political strategy to oh yeah what is what is pan issue in English uh um divert uh uhu we're being silly right here uh yeah diversion of um diversion of news of um diversion of issues issues yeah yeah let's just call it that so so it has always been a Hallmark political strategy like it's literally on the Playbook right oh yes divert issues uh whenever whenever politicians want to do something that a lot of people would be like what the sigma uh they would always like throw something else under the bus that's not a new phenomena that's not a new it's been it's been used from the old used since like sorry it's been used since like uh the old days since and it has continued to be used like when printing was a thing uh when printing was a thing like in newspapers they would keep on doing that and I feel like here with industry 4.0 with how people are more Reliant towards social media to find information they go on Twitter to look at opinions and then they uh what do you call that uh the phone has replaced the the TV it becomes easier for government to manipulate us rather than for them to find it more difficult to manipulate us because like there's going to be like a few accounts in Twitter right that seems okayish like they're they're key opinion leaders and they're uh they have credentials because they're against the government but who is to say for sure that they are Incorruptible towards wealth like a government official can just come up to them with a briefcase full of money and be like hey we want to do this we want you to talk about this Kabam here you go and that is what I feel towards like a lot of the stuff that I come across in Indonesia like when ronal tan okay yeah when ronal tan was was he was he was declared innocent okay uh for some reason news about IND G and Chi about the boycott was taking the airwaves oh man did you get me I've been following that more than I should that it's literally it's the ronal tan and the chi and IND the G Cas were literally like side by side they were literally side by side but for some reason right people are obviously going to get angry at ronal tanu right yeah but the timing was just so nice like the stars aligned for the for ronal tanu right he he was the B and the uh the the societal backlash was also pretty weak as well do you think there's a mastermind behind it there was a mastermind behind it I think there is a mastermind behind it and I think that's damn clever like hey if you're watching this I want to learn from you I want to learn how to divert issues okay hit me up they translate to a lot of money yeah they'll translate to a lot of money like you don't find eager students around right it's so you're a teacher so you know you don't find eager students you're like in the classroom you're talking about industry 4.0 and they're like yeah yeah yeah man I'm just going to do YouTube Stu about being a teacher yeah so like you you I'm just kidding everyone I'm a I'm a willing student you know on the Arts of the public manipulation of opinion but anyways I am digressing going back no no that's so so so soci social control we we pretty much uh we pretty much talk about how you agree with me that uh that the internet and Industry 4.0 if anything has strengthened government control right now we switch to the next question which was my question regarding uh how countries will exert control outside of its borders we're talking about geop GE geopolitics at this point do you think that industry 4.0 will exacerbate uh the rush to power especially seeing that the geopolitical trend in the world is shifting from a unipolar world into something that is bolar yeah or even multipolar or even multipolar like the girls on Tumblr and sorry the girls on Tinder yes they are bipolar um no no oh segue into geopolitics is a really interesting uh thingy because yeah there's this geopolitic aspect this externalities that is not um that is not something that is uh of Primacy in the previous Industrial revolutions and I think you know in physics you got forces you know these forces governs the way you know trees fall from the trees uh sorry apple fall from the trees Isaac yes um there's gravity obviously and there's weak forces nuclear forces Etc I believe that in a way people do things and uh congregate in the societies social thingy uh they're also governed by forces and these forces influences politics um what are the driver of the previous election the main driver probably economy right and then the other one probably there would be time where inequalities become the dri or probably social issues like lgbts and others I think that in 2029 and onwards if not already starting now geopolitics would be the main driver for two reasons the first one is the uh finitude of resources natural resources we're talking about and Indonesia holds the key to many of the critical elements critical Earth elements second one is like what I um implicitly said before um the absence of binding morality at an international stage the question would be this if you are a Chinese government what would stop you from interfering with Indonesian politics nothing literally nothing there's so there without being without being racist there's so much people here in the bamboo Network that is willing to help out the Chinese govern government right and the the followup question is why shouldn't they right there's nothing to hold them and if you're an Australian government if you're other governments given that Indonesia holds the key to many uh finite uh resources um yeah then then we could expect geopolitics to play a crucial role all right uh Indonesia in order to com uh to use these industrial revolutions as part of their Arsenal they have to have a complete completely new narrative this narrative we do not have this narrative as to the narrative tells you about your meaning and purpose that's narrative a technical definition is that so statements like we are a big country is not a narrative why because you cannot deduce meaning and purpose from we are a big country I mean so we're a big country so what so what what should we do I mean the Chinese have that for example uh their confusion Confucianism Laden center of the world Dogma yes okay allows them to justify their building of infrastructures of Railways uh of Railways right we do not have that uh so we cannot take a full advantage of the industry Revolution 4.0 because without the narrative you can get you cannot get people to Rally behind you mhm what are we going to do we're going to be um the new Beacon of um Tik Tok or anything like that no no we don't have that binding narrative so it's very difficult from government perspective to make any policies without binding narratives M and then the second one Technologies internet of things this things we were talking about the genes are very familiar about yes people at the policy level much less at the um foreign policy level uh have very little understanding of this for example yeah uh if you and I have uh mingled with uh British Ministry of Foreign Affairs they call it secretary right the Secretary of State Wait no that's no Foreign Affairs fore Foreign Affairs Ministries off they always go to international meeting meetings with Chief scientific officers some of them are asro astrophysicists some of are some of them are computer computer scientists so they know full well about the impact of Industry 4.0 in terms of foreign policies Internet of Things implies problem with property rights M by the way do you remember nfts yes nfts non non fible tokens yeah fun tokens like the monkey right I don't know where it's right now but the point is there are some property issues there right and then there are some issues in more classical technology uh category like climate change uh which is not necessarily digitalized but British foreign officers are very well prepared to negotiate on behalf of Britain uh and using um vocabularies that are very natural to genes who are born live with this Internet of Things lingos digital natives one might say right digital natives ours isn't so this isn't integrated at policy levels so you have no narrative and those who are supposed to negotiate on our behalf uh at the international world have no clue about what it means to be uh iot literate country so there you go M no that's mine actually that's J yeah don't worry in my class people are free to you know take their their any calls could have been important oh thank you sir I I I I almost thought that I was about to get the tension could have been your ex you know oh yeah I think a family member yeah but yeah by the way I'm I'm pregnant oh my god oh wow oh um I guess we should go straight to the uh closing question sure yeah right uh but before that like you us to live in the UK you still live in the UK right yeah yeah yeah I'm I'm going to go back in the end of August oh I see the news Master commences there what's your favorite British accent no this is okay I I don't know I don't I I hope I don't come across British I don't know what what do you think of my accent I think you uh come across as European Europe from the way from the way you know you you use your vocabulary it's very European okay okay if you know if you want me to speak using a British accent then I could entertain you oh rile Governor you know you tend to get bored of accents where you live of course you know so British accent for me at the time for me it wasn't impressive it's more like difficulty in understanding that because I grew up watching you know the sitcoms from the United States and then let me give you a true story I was interviewed for the job that I have right now and I was really nervous because I was a postdoc before and postdoc has you know limited tenure right 3 years four years at Imperial and then this is my first permanent job and then I was interviewed having gone through this um teaching examples Etc uh by a Scottish from Glasgow I couldn't understand a word he said and I was really nervous my God and I was like really nervous and I don't understand the word he says well what what consult me is that apparently probably his colleague even have problems understanding what he said so I'm not the only one uh but but anyway probably because it it it has a deep root in my memory at my most very stressful events I like Scottish accent very much they come across quite friendly to my ears oh uh but English is a very classic Society if you speak Quinn's English very pway um people treat you differently yeah people are going to treat you as a pony as a yeah yeah yeah and then if you start speaking Scottish like apparently for us it's aphrodisiac yeah yeah yeah but yeah I I I can speak the queen's English because I watch a lot of the you know the crown and I play games with a lot of people who used to belong to Sanders okay you know sandur Military College yes yes uh they go to sanus okay yeah I play with them and they're like 60 years old now and they speak the queen's English were you born in in the west or yeah I was raised in the west pretty much oh you were okay yeah I was raised in commonwealth countries in Australia in the UK okay all right yeah so it was back in the early 2000s my actual accent is not American I only speak American I was wondering yeah I was speak I'm speaking American because uh most of my friends in the internet are American most of the people here in Indonesia speak American English yes they do so when I speak British English like people don't understand what I'm saying like they'll be like oh yeah yeah I'm mean I me yeah you can get me right yeah but so I had to I had to train myself speaking uh I have to train myself speaking an American accent basically because a little bit more egalitarian or something it's a bit more egalitarian but maybe you could you can notice in my verose yes yes yes no I was I was the the reason why I want to come here is probably because I like your show really and the way you with understand all of this criticism about you using English all the time oh yeah you know people are very sensitive about that which I think a little misplaced of course like I don't I don't understand why people here in Indonesia they they they they don't they don't want to speak English because I feel like English it's not the only language I feel like I encourage other people to study uh different language like I study for example yeah I work in France I study I study Japanese as well because I think uh communication is key between humans I'm I'm an introvert right I'm deeply introverted yeah but uh I feel like you're also an introvert as well but people people understand us because we have good communication right and language is one of those medium of communication right and so if we can communicate with people we can communicate in different languages it creates an attitude in Indonesia right right it creates an attitude right and better communication with people especially people from overseas that should be strength yeah that's exactly why Malaysia and Singapore is known as a very international country you know compared to like Thailand Vietnam and Indonesia and the Philippines because they speak a lot of English yeah let me get this point across because it's really important and I think the misunderstanding from the people is that if you use English you're not nationalistic and there's this I don't want to name name somebody who says that Indonesia is a is an inferior language to other languages I I think with all due respect people who say that don't really know how to use Indonesian language as a tool yes all right I mean I'm married to a German German has a very different um way of you know uh uh getting your message across very uh very very critical you cannot say a full you cannot say a full sentence in German without having thought all the way through till the end I'm like in English for example I can start talking Without Really knowing which point I'm going to go yeah because in German the second verb is towards the end of the sentence mm right so imagine speaking without knowing the verb you know so that makes them a little bit less humorous but very precise it's a good language for making laws yes for example in English it's very very unique in that it has Roman roots and it has Ang root yeah French is right is Roman so for every word they have two roots for example like ghost and Spirit uh kingley and Royale and and those have very different emotion to them so and that's why they're International Language Indonesian language ambiguous as it is is a very powerful tool to move people because it's very poetic yeah so if you want to use Indonesian language use it to make people move you you you get their hearts a lot quicker with Indonesian language because it's a very poetic language it does not mean Indonesian is very inferior to the other languages but it depends on what you use the tool for now my my message has always been one that is looking inside ourself to get our own narrative not to import one yes and some of these narrative might be found in local dialects and Indonesian languages my point is that if you want to bring this narrative abroad you want to project your postcolonial image to the world you have to understand the way they think I'm not even talking about being able to communicate with them I'm talking about being able to understand how they think and the way people think is very determined by the language they're using much more so than you think yeah yeah yeah so yeah yeah so you don't really nail down you don't really hammer down a nail with scissors now do you that's basically the entire thing like you uh every language every language has its own character and to understand them is to basically understand how the entire Society Works yes yes as an emergent Behavior yes as an emergent Behavior which is why I find languages interesting very interesting and I disagree with a lot of people that says that Indonesian uh using you know if you're not using Indonesian you're not nationalistic no that's that's the contrary I'm using English to spread news about Indonesia overseas to people who can understand English how nationalist can you get right yeah yeah and everybody in the world seems to speak English including some of us Indonesians yeah if I speak English more people would understand what Indonesia is all about yeah I think people can see through your hearts you know through through through the facade of um your your accent and all then get see see through your heart whether your motivation is one that is nationalistic or one that is just trying to you know show your uh place in in a hierarchical stratum Society I think mine is the ladder here's where I sit you I'm kidding nothing wrong with that yeah but anyways yeah uh I heard you have a flight to catch I don't want to detain right I bought the wrong ticket I'm sorry I got like 45 minutes toar that's okay that's okay I wish you have a good vacation I think you deserve it after you know you went around going to pre-industrial societies pre-industrial wow like that is great well it's re it's an honor to have you here Mr M and uh we'll uh see each other in the next episode of the based Indonesian talks see you based [Music] Indonesians subscribe to the based Indonesian show in Hal love