so I have a question okay you you love Indonesia love it but are you proud of it certain aspects yes the reason why we're doing this podcast is so I was in New York uh I was doing a lot of things in New York but I was doing standup I was working I was doing on a holiday one of the Indonesian diaspora came up to me Abigail and said like hey K so she knows what is up Indonesia so the conversation went like this we're talking about my stand up everything she was like I know what is up Indonesia but is there any like long form content where we can like listen to to what is up Indonesia or just long form content of what is up Indonesia yeah and I came while I was in I Whata you I was like yep abigil let's let's talk when when I'm back to Indonesia so I flew back to Indonesia and then we we talk and I said yeah because again I've always wanted to do this but I know that we need the right host to do this and I I I feel like Andi is the right host so if you disagree so we will bring Andi back to YouTube yeah yeah yeah okay so what's our first episode going to be about Abigail yes so this is the month of August and the month of August is closely linked to our Independence Day wo so of course of course the topic that we chose is about nationalism ooh that's heavy it's heavy it is it's heavy well on the surface level I feel like us as Indonesian we grew up indoctrinated with we need to be nationalistic right nationalist uh love Indonesia and the term nationalism I feel like it always mean having pride in our country loving our country uh regardless of whatever happens and just like being proud of of being Indonesians right basically and it's nationalism is a weird thing for us third culture kids slash Maybe you can explain what is third culture kids Yeah so basically third culture kids are this is a very summarized version mm third culture kids are in this context Indonesians who who either Grew Up Abroad or who either had their schooling abroad or even had an international upbringing in Indonesia yep so basically uh spending a portion of our de like significant developmental years in more than one culture right right mhm that doesn't make us any special that doesn't make us like no I'm just saying it gives us a very different upbringing yeah and because of that me personally I because of my mom because my mom being a diplomat I'm a diplomat because of dipl brat there's a proper reference and there's many dipl brats in Indonesia uh like fatti kitten do CL she's also a dipl brat Nina zubi is a Diplo brat there are many dipl brats in Indonesia you just don't know internet right so and I'm sure in the weeo community there's there a a lot of there's a lot I read I bet yeah and I guess the term nationalism uh for me and a lot of the wiii community like we often talk about this and one time I opened a question box about like what does nationalism mean to you and the answer gets a bit complicated because I think a lot of the wiii community they grew up internationally meaning like what how you describe it right going University you brought so basically they identify with more than what just one culture or they identify with the Indonesian culture differently because of how they're they grew up and the term nationalism having pride in your country gets a bit tricky it gets a bit tricky because you can love your country but then kind of not love how your country does not really fully embrace you yeah oh yeah and you can say that you have pride in Indonesia a lot of them say that they love Indonesia and they have pride in Indonesia but then the people around them say no you don't cuz you speak in English yeah oh my God I got that a lot or you go to university abroad or you decided not to come back right right right you you decided to live abroad yeah and so the term gets very tricky and how growing up maybe it's it's a very um Sunday schoolish term how like oh yeah we're of course we're nationalistic of course we're nationally but like what does that even mean yeah so because what is up Indonesia is not just you know it's not just Vibes but we do research right cuz what I love about what about Wei we you guys always have that thing where you post in your Instagram um here's the reference and but do your own research do your own research because again even this podcast yeah this is a stepping stone where we talk about very very complex issue that you need to please do your own research because we are biased we are so biased and we are prone to error so that still works and funny thing when I told my team that hey we're going to do um a Wii we podcast they're like let me give you an essay about nationalism so that you don't just Yap about nothing love you wee Bo I love you so we have we have a there's five definitions of nationalism right just like panasil there's five interesting or maybe this is probably not exhaustive but like the the big ones yeah Sobe so okay let me read the first one it's the first type of nationalism is State nationalism which is the type of nationalism that is steered by the whims of the state in charge okay and the second one is ethn nationalism okay so that's B basing the legit the legitimacy of a state as being comprised of a specified chosen eth chosen ethnic group right so it let's just take an example so they specialize they put uh a certain ethnic group in a special pedestal basically and the third one is plur nationalism or multiethnic nationalism this is when a state recognizes and defends the country being comprised of multiple Nations as being a fundamental part of States St States said States existence yeah in my mind this is very Indonesia and also like America in a sense there's so many states in America right west coast East Coast Midwest whatever but Indonesia is actually very plur nationalism that's true so actually um uh the wiii team they did they point out a very interesting fact about that where maybe on a level Indonesia does seems to be a plural nationalism because we do comprise of different types of ethnicity and but we are kind of like one but we don't call for example banga Jawa or banga but it says we need the we call them suku and so there's a linguistic um oh that's very interesting I get it there there's a linguistic play where yes we are diverse but there's only one nation in India okay and so that kind of like interplays to how we connect with our diversity basically okay okay okay okay that's actually very interesting what do you think of that I think it's compare if we compare with Malaysia Malaysia is very like there's B it's very very clear Indonesia we don't say bang ja we say suku and what's interesting we say we don't say uh suku uh Chinese Indonesian oh yeah yeah yeah when we mix in some of so so in a way Indonesia you know you know what they got that kind of right in my opinion they kind of sort of it's a it's a it's a mix idea yeah it's a mix idea yeah and the fourth uh my personal favorite one is religious nationalism where the separation of church and state basically don't exist there's only a state that is an extension of the church and vice versa now this is a very complicated and for example in in the Western countries the separation of church and state is clear yes in fact in the the US Constitution if it states as such yep there must be a separation of church in state in Indonesia it clearly is not because Pila our first P MH so there is no separation of church and state there is no like uh explicit clearly defined separation but to but it's we're not exactly religious nationalism in the sense that we we are a nation of some religion we we we do like acknowledge the diversity of religion do but there is no separation between religion and state so it's it's like a interesting and we're always proud look we're always proud of us saying we're the number one Muslim popular country in the world even though Pakistan just overtook us oh really yeah Pakistan overtook us two months ago so now technically we're number two but Indonesia is beautiful in the sense that yes we are the largest Muslim populated country in the world but we never say we're the number one Muslim Nation that's the difference difference and yeah so that's the fourth religious nationalism and the the last one that we're going to mention and this is I think is very very interesting is the postcolonial nationalism which came about in post World War II era where a lot of colonized countries started declaring independence so it's a sense of Pride and nationalism that is derived from Breaking Free of nationalism right right right right got it so that's a lot of countries that's that's almost most of Asian countries African countries as well many okay okay okay and I guess uh so the the question is which one describes Indonesia the most and I feel like as we were describing we can see Indonesia reflected a little bit in all five in all of that so uh I one Journal that my team site they basically uh I love the I love the Wii team they basically said that Indonesia is this is in in the words of my team that Indonesia is a funky hybrid of close funky hybrid wow we post Colonial nationalism by foundation and state nationalism in practice because the foundation of Indonesian state has always been the shared history of colonialism uh under Dutch and and but yeah let go this is actually very interesting because we okay so I get it so we're post colon colonialization the foundation the foundation it's very strong but the practice is actually State nationalism because in Indonesia even we have the word m which is not free it's it's freedom from right right it's freedom from right right right it's freedom from so it's it's very embedded within our shared Consciousness about like having pride of breaking of like oppression right and colonialism okay but then okay um let's talk about our national um our national philosophy okay so that falls under plur nationalistic so almost though almost yeah because of that word linguistic and it's it's undeniable that certain ethnic group are of do like they dominate for the government and things like that but it's not codified right right right okay so now okay there's there's more explanations but I I want to take it to a to a more I want to take it personal yeah okay if if somebody were to ask me what does nationalism mean to me I be it's such a hard answer it is because if you ask me do I love Indonesia I can say with a heartbeat without even thinking yes yeah I mean you created so many like work for Indonesia right and it it's it's weird because if people ask me okay kaapa why why M why right it's always a sec do you love Indonesia yes why that's a second question yeah and why it's it's like people give okay people give a lot of answers I love the food I love the weather I love the the the I love the not the beaches I love the whatever right not not the [ __ ] but the the beaches okay okay hello hello young Papa I'm young Papa I remember now I'm young Pap my name is Young pap young Papa loves his beaches no um if we get if this if this podcast gets cancelled it's because of this segment okay I have a very outof topic reference that I hope the anime and and and the the the the get so bad the andov is famous for his sense of humor yeah yeah I'm very bad for my I have very bad anies okay if any of you anime fans or wee Boos or we weeo wee Boos no no we is a play we we yeah yeah if you got did you watch Dragon Ball when you growing up cuz I I grew up watching that okay well I'm old okay but we're in the same okay never mind so I grew up watching Dragon Ball So this this is one scene do you do you know Piccolo the green guy I don't I don't want Picolo wait maybe maybe okay show me a picture picol you know once you know him Picolo not the coffee yeah I I was about to say this guy okay sure this is Piccolo okay long story short Piccolo lives in Earth with Goku okay I know here we stay with me go and then they went to Planet Namek Planet Namek is where they fought Frieza Frieza is the villain okay okay my point of this very bad knowy is Piccolo never lived in his home planet planet Nami he never lived there but there's this one scene where he went back he got revived by the Dragon Dragon Ball right okay he went back he got revived and he was like he he was revived in Planet Nami and he's never been there for all his life and he's like he looked around and Gohan Goku's kid there was so much Lord this he literally went like this I need to show you guys a scene please I need to this is a scene but basically if you saw that scene he was like this I don't know why but I feel like I'm home as a person who's lived abroad I've lived four years in Norway four years in Denmark three years in Delhi India every time I come back it's sort of like that scene except I'm not like a superpower green green monster I just go in and I just I can't explain it I'm like I feel like I'm home and maybe it's the blood maybe CU cuz my both both my parents are n unian maybe it's the weather maybe it's the smell I don't I don't get it but there's just just thing that I can't explain where I'm just like I feel like I'm home whether the home sucks whether the home is full of corruption and Judy online and full of joy I I look I get it but I just feel like I'm home like full of polar full of polar I can't believe you didn't mention that I forgot I but like does that make sense like like I just feel like that is actually a very good analogy I just feel like I'm home which is weird cuz I technically didn't grow up here which is this is very weird true I don't get the inside jokes lingo sometimes when people but I just feel like I'm home now maybe it's an I'm going to show out a fancy word here maybe it's an amalgamation wow fancy maybe it's an amalgamation of all these things right yeah but I just feel like I'm home and look I don't know what category that that falls under maybe it falls under the home nationalism maybe I'm romanticizing it a bit but but I just feel like that's just how I that's the best way I can describe and so so nationalism is kind of like an equivalent of loving your home for you yes okay so I have a question okay you you love Indonesia love it but are you proud of it certain aspects yes okay like people know I have publicly said I'm not proud of many things many things I'm not proud of Indonesia okay but I am so proud like there are moments like for example remember when when IND when Indonesia um played in Qatar for the the under 23 football oh yeah even though we lost against we won against Korea remember after we won against Korea there was I don't even like football I'm a basketball guy I just felt like I am so Indonesian today I am so IND like even though we lost against Iraq afterward we know we lost against Kazakhstan true we lost against Iraq we lost against Guinea so we didn't play in the Olympics yep but I just felt so proud it it's such a weird feeling did you feel the same way when we won uh what was it the the batminton yeah uh when was it uh uh o Olympics olyp by the way uh abig girl's little sister is right here she's off cam if you guys don't know her this is her very famous video of her with a flag running in her house Olivia also Olivia is very proud of her batminton team she's also very she's a diaspora too she she grew up a big portion of her life abroad but when it comes to sport like your sense of nationalism just shot up shut up right and remember like the the opening of uh Asian Games Asian games oh my God 2018 oh my God yes yes yes yes I that's that's true that's true like the feeling of pride of loving your nation of being you just like I'm I belong in this imagin community it it really is Amplified during sport events it is yeah according to Benedict Anderson and actually what's interesting Benedict Anderson he's the one who coined the term okay uh imagine community so he says like a a nation is actually an imagined Community okay and he says that there is another type of nationalism which is a longdistance nationalism and this is kind of like can be set as the diaspora types of nationalism okay I want to dig into that okay let's talk about the long-distance nationalism yeah yeah okay so can you please describe longdistance nationalism is there is there a definition of this while we're looking at the notes guys we Bo has a lot of notes and paragraphs I'm just going to read it cuz this is really funny okay no read it please please please read it he said okay the the not says the weeo the we said big brain boy of the political science genre Benedict Anderson wrote a phenomenon called diaspora nationalism or as he term it long dist distance nationalism in a very the Indonesia Choy M he detailed this phenomenon in this book the Spectre of comparisons nationalism southeast Asia and the world where he wrote specifically about Indonesia oh wow thank you Benedict Anderson are you related to Benedict Cumberbatch okay that was bad joke okay so now I feel it and this is what exactly why when that diaspora talked to me in New York I want longer stuff about Indonesia Indonesia this is like look I don't know the exact number of diaspora in of Indonesians like there's a lot of in Australians there's a lot of Australian diaspora right there's a lot a lot in the US I imagine Australian hi Australian diaspora could I might you want some water sh that's all I know I'm sorry uh uh um yeah KY okay okay that's all I know but look again I'm not speaking of all but I feel there's a general consensus of when you meet diaspora in Australia in the US or whatever there is the sense of Pride yeah there is like it's so hard to explain like granted a lot of them also complain about Indonesia I'm not going to I'm not going to show it but there is this every time I meet Indonesians abroad ah and it it it's it's very apparent also this is what happened like I I went to University of brto in the US right and every single Indonesians when it comes to food oh no they'll be like I just introduced my buet friends to indoi and they love it like there's that that sense of like here this is Indonesian food I'm very proud of it that's from my country you try it and I dare you to tell me it's that it's not good like people get really I get I get sensitive they got really mad when people like oh uh especially when they say like oh isn't this Malaysian I get I get I get I love my Malaysian brothers and sisters no it's ours okay so but like you're absolutely right why is it that food and sports food and sports I think food I think food is the magic ingredient for the one of the Magic ingredients for the longdistance nationalism so I have so I think that's true I I think like you mentioned right love I feel like love is very innate like it just flows naturally out of you like even if you hate a a lot of things about Indonesia but you still kind of like deep down you you still feel like a connection you love it but pride and feeling of proudness that that's a different thing cuz usually you need to earn pride and you need to earn like for example if if you love somebody you can love them like uh despite of their shortcomings right but for you to be proud of somebody that person usually need to earn your PR your I love that so has Indonesia earned our pride exactly and you mentioned right that you're proud of certain things but you are not proud of other things and I feel like food is the one thing that that unites us all that is not tarnished yet it is it's I it is not tarnished I mean it is so and I mean it is good and maybe we're biased but no I've I've never met a single look of course a lot of diasporas are like yeah I want to try Italian today I want to try Mexican whatever but there's that one moment where everybody needs to eat indomi I there's this one moment where everyone's like give me my indomi or I'm going to fight back to Indonesia yeah or like Nas Padang yeah oh my God that's so true so so the question is how how do we bottle up if if our food is so great how do we if if you can magically Wingardium Leviosa bottle that pride of food into everything else okay here's here's my thing okay okay okay so one I think I I forgot when but yeah I I usually I rant about like Indonesia's yeah 101 problem and I think one of my friend asked um so are you still do you still love Indonesia after all of this oh yeah right and I said I feel like the same with you you know like I feel like love love is a choice and it's something that Wells up naturally like it it's where you grew up I grew up in Indonesia and then I I went abroad but I it's it's the place where I grew up and I I love the jokes I love the people like that's where my family is so I I love Indonesia despite its shortcoming but I'm not proud of it and my friend was was taken a back like my friend was quite I think offended by it cuz uh I think we were taught to all we need to be proud of our nation despite its shortcoming but I feel like we conflate love and pride oh love because yeah that's true we love we can love something but if that thing does not earn our pride I don't think we can be proud of it because proud proudness takes like it it entails like somebody or something has earned that Pride from us so I I I feel like it's okay so another one of my friend he he's also a diaspora and he he wrote a piece basically asking am I wrong for so he just moved out from Indonesia and he's like am I wrong for not missing home am I am I wrong for seeing every single thing that is wrong in the news right and I just don't feel any sense of pride of my country you know is that wrong cuz I think we are we grew up feeling like pride is a compulsion that we need to feel but I I my my take is that yeah maybe we should love it or even not love it but I I Feel Like Love is somebody that they have naturally a sense of belonging oh that's another question sense of belonging that's another thing but Pride I feel like it needs to be earned and and pride is and pride is difficult sorry because because what if you're over proud it's dangerous there's this line which let's not talk about Indonesia many other countries when they go over proud I mean let's look at 1933 into 1945 Germany mhm what happens when you're overproud [ __ ] happens right let's let's look at the um the countries in even America even America when you're over proud bomb every country in the world I mean but my point is I don't know if that's going to get the quality control but my point is Pride is very dangerous yep back to ultra nationalism yeah so yeah it it Ultra nationalism Ultra nationalism becomes dangerous if you look at the history of countries like Germany 1933 1945 America May Japan back in the day people always forget Japan back in the day they were not just cute and funny but they were very yeah and I think when you have when your pride is not based on reality it's very easy to be twisted manipulated Amplified and weaponized that's that's a Tik Tok Instagram real right there when you're Pride that is not based on reality yeah love Indonesians love to imagine [ __ ] so it makes sense exactly love can be it's a choice but Pride should be based on reality I think it should be grounded in reality right because otherwise it's it's easily weaponized and it can so easily move towards weird stuff like Fascism and things like that yeah yeah no no you so if if you if you again Mis of bad analogies here imagine a parent to a child again I'm not a parent I don't have a child parents will again mostly I assume love their children of course like it's a innate natural thing but that doesn't mean they're naturally proud of them exactly that's I think the what okay got it got it got it yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and when they do something good the children let you say they get second place at the spelling me or whatever the parents feel Pride like oh exactly yeah but but if the parent regardless of the child's shortcoming says like I'm still proud of you the child the child would mess up the I'm still proud of I'm still proud of you they're enabling the bad behavior like for example if the child you know drives in senopati and kills people and the parents are like I'm still proud of my senopati driver killing child it's messed up yeah it's messed up it's it eliminates the the consequence dude I love it I love it that was I got that that was the analogy folks that was an analogy it was a good one okay okay okay mhm oh that's very interesting okay okay I'm I'm going to move on to a topic and still nationalism but abigael what is what are moments in your life you can pick one or two whatever you want to share that you felt like personally like people are just attacking you for are questioning your nationalism or questioning yeah yeah questioning your nationalism what are the moments in your life I think I think it it has a lot to do and I think you you might resonate with this with like the the subculture that I grew up in and the language like me sometimes mixing my language or expressing my writings in English or Me growing up not growing up in Indonesia but Grew Up Abroad like people kind of equate that to like I don't I it's I don't really understand what it feels like to be an Indonesian as if being an Indonesian there's only one way of experiencing Indonesia but simply because I don't experience Indonesia I don't grw up like the majority did it's as if I don't know what it's like to be an Indonesian and therefore any sense of Pride or criticism that I threw towards Indonesia may it be the government the people the culture the norm it's unfounded because I don't know what I'm talking about right so they see you quote unquote as an outsider an outsider even though I think the feeling of of yeah yeah yeah even though the love the the the sense of nationalism maybe or the pride is sort of there it's there but it's awkward because what what I mean like what does it mean for you to feel a sense of Pride and love towards a country but not have the people in that country love you that sucks good that actually sucks and I I must admit I mean now I I do admit that we can't force people cuz I accept you to accept us and we we are in a position of privilege the fact that we can grow up uh learning in English can grow up in different countries that's that's that's privilege that's privilege and we can't really expect people to like understand us and I've accepted that we do need to put in the effort to assimilate and learn the culture and learn the language that's on us right but but there is still a big portion of Indonesian that because they receive that kind of treatment it makes it decent is disincentivize them from loving the country right right I get it it's like to to piggy back on your point you said look I'm going to where's my my camera is I'm going to put this camera whatever this camera listen it is up to us to put in extra effort yeah okay I'm going to got is B I'm going to underline this very if you are a third culture kid internationally raised bullan whatever the term you want to call us it is a up to us to put in the extra effort however it does hurt yeah yeah you cannot take the hurt it does hurt when you're putting the if for those who are putting the extra effort and they're just reciprocating it like nah it's like yeah it doeser I'm not going to lie and I think this this brings a a very interesting point of how the general Narrative of Indonesia of nationalism in Indonesia it it has a very positive undertone right yeah uh and it's usually connected to like if you love your country if your National istic you will come back if you go abroad you will have to go back contribute uh in Indonesia you need to speak the language you don't speak like foreign language there's there's kind of like that uh sense of thing and people view Indonesians who live abroad as less connected to Indonesia or as as less Indonesian less nationalistic even though and I guess that begs the question what does it mean how do you measure the level of nationalism is it by emotion is it by a sense of Pride by love like if it's only by emotion I know a lot of diasporas that really wants to come back but they are exiled during the Oru no this is interesting this is interesting and and of course maybe they some of them still Harbor like a lot of their ideologies but the the country is not doing anything to bring them back and a lot of them died abroad wanting dreaming of coming back to to Indonesia and so location shouldn't be right a measure of your nationalism or how much you love Indonesia right okay I want to elaborate on this point more because I think this is very interesting most people think Indonesians who go abroad are either because of work privilege study or whatever but what abig what you're pointing out is there is a certain number of Indonesians who were exiled during the suaro years yeah yeah just Google it we're not going to explain about the history just Google it but it's interesting cuz they were exiled and they they are trying to come back yep but they just can't cuz they were exiled mhm right so here so so yeah please please please for for example yeah so for example some of them would deliberately host Indonesian students who are studying in their home country just to generally cherish their company because they miss Indonesian so much and one of the Exiles even seemingly obsessively keeps thousands of Articles and books in Bahasa Indonesia his home was literally filled with Stacks upon stacks of touchable uh numbers of Indonesian books and articles many of which were published or from publication that have been shut down during the New Order regime so this one of the Exiles are just keeping books in their home wow this and this is from the the film the film Exel that was released in 202 I haven't I still I know you told me to watch it I still haven't watched Exel please watch Exel shout out to Exel I I I got to get more more about this see see see I'm even even I'm learning here okay okay okay okay yeah you're absolutely right like and okay this is another interesting point when you meet Indonesians abroad they are always Indonesian first maybe their religious identity second and then their ethnic background third Indonesian diaspora will always introduce themselves first as foremost as Indonesians when you meet Indonesian and I feel like that's true whether you're migrant worker whether you're going for University you're working right um they're always like oh I'm Indonesian right right no you're absolutely right and and that's a good thing guys that and to to automatically say that even though with all the [ __ ] that's going on that that's great it means you do have a sense of belonging sort of between in but okay I want to I want to ask you one more question you're a diaspora let's just say you're diaspora in in in Mel Melbourne because Olivia is from Melbourne follow her ra six pack right follow it follow it great [ __ ] okay apart from okay you know I mean not not everybody can just keep books and exile videos right yep what other things do diasporas in Melbourne who don't have the opportunity to go back that fuels their sense of connection and belonging to Indonesia is it as simple as okay what about all the guys people always forget what about the people in abroad who send money back home just by sending money back home you're helping a lot of people back home yep right for those who are working uh even as professionals as even you're working abroad you how do you question their their love if you still send money back home to your family so it's it's it is a multiac it is very comprehens it is very there's a lot of things it's very Nuance sorry that there very Nuance right what does what is what does what does contribution mean yeah do you have to contribute from Indonesia right right you can be anaz you can be an amazing diaspora abroad who's never come back back home and here's the thing okay another another thing I feel like you can also put yourself first but still love your country so for example there's there's there's a lot of um Indonesians who decided that I feel like I'm not going to go anywhere with my career here Indonesia because they don't appreciate my work because I don't get paid enough and I feel like my my family would have a better life abroad you know so so they are putting their self-interest first and then they they move out from Indonesia right but they still Harbor love for Indonesia and they still feel a sense of nationalism for that and I feel like that can happen uh those two feelings can coexist yeah yeah yeah no I agree I 1,00% agree with you being nationalistic doesn't mean you have to sacrifice your entire life for a nation that is basically just an abstract concept a nation exists for its people not people exist for the nation right Tik Tok Instagram real that [ __ ] a nation exists for it people not the people exist for the nation yes because a nation cannot feel pain the people can feel feel pain yeah yeah yeah you're absolutely right yeah yeah yeah and so I I think there it's a very toxic narrative too where people say like oh for you to truly be an Indonesian truly love a nation truly be nationalistic you need to not put yourself first you cannot be selfish right right right right right yeah absolutely right right you're absolutely right right it's like that thing when you're going on a bad Mis of bad knowledges here okay when you go go on a plane and they like if the oxygen Mass goes down put the oxygen M first on you then to your baby your wife your husband whatever that's true right so it's save yourself first you can save others but I do agree that if everyone hold on to this type of mindset it's it maybe not the it's not the most productive and stable thing for the nation as all because again I think that goes back to State nationalism where I think I get it the nation kind of IMO that sense of nationalism to make sure that there's a sense of loyalty to prevent brain drain for example from happening and things like that right right right right okay let's talk about I want to talk about budo okay okay I think we got we got to touch on that we've sort of talked about it in our bull naan episode on bonka remember that we sort of talked about our founding fathers but here is an excerpt about budh Tomo from one of the weeo from we we're not going to read all of it we're not going to read all of it don't read all of it it right there's a lot of there's some of it no okay budo was made up of a bunch of Japanese men who were part of the aristocracy I repeat who were part of the aristocracy the Dutch were even initially okay with this perfume nerds okay I'm talking about not I mean they're very good smelling people talking about their version of nationalism right budhy uto members learn about your European concept of nationalism and saw parallels with their own situation okay now here's the point they were made up about they were made up from a bunch of Japanese noblemen and noblemen Sons so where they were in the upper strata of society yeah basically the educated Elite the educated Elite M back then guys budy uto did not have a wide Mass Appeal yes it wasn't like the local people were like oh Budd yay go no they were like oh you look at your aristocrats but if you fast forward 100 years later or how many tens of years later now budo is highly enshrined now we're like oh great movement amazing doing for the people so if you take the lens of time and you zoom out and if you look at things and a zoom out lens we're not saying the current diaspora the current third culture kids are buy that's not what we're saying no no no I'm just saying isn't it interesting through the lens of Time how perception changes yep we never know 100 years from now what the world is like we never know how globalization happens we never know Indonesia K we never know but it might be that the same thing that the people who perceive budo back in the day perceive us now that's that's one of the maybe maybe maybe a huge maybe huge maybe okay yeah but like it's interesting because again I I think yeah what I think what you're trying to get is there's no one way of of being nationalistic or there's multiple way and this is clear a very nuanced and complicated um concept that different people with different background relates to differently and expresses differently too right right right right right right and like the people in budo or the people who are uh fighting the Dutch colonialism for example like they probably have a very different idea of nationalism and how to fight for it right and cuz back then there was something very clear to fight against exactly then you were like I had to fight the Dutch or the Japanese like that's true that's true that's true right and right now maybe we don't have a quote unquote common enemy to well we do our corruption our Judah our joy that's if you think about it that's our if Indonesian just realated by the same people exactly but yeah okay okay uh iig iig okay I want to talk about while we're still in budo what do you think okay what do you think if Indonesians that are perceived as like us okay and people dislike us for it right if there's a perception there is a negative stereotype of people like us in the world I'm not going to in Indonesia sorry I'm not going to name names but there is a perception okay what and that perception is totally justified in my opinion however what can we do about it to counter that what can we do to counter that if if I'm going to answer that question yeah right you need to show that you're trying yeah doesn't have to yield results but you need to show that you're trying I know that's very I know that's very broad guys I know that's a very like I know what the [ __ ] did you just say but that's very bad in a sense that let's just say you're known as the person who only speaks English and never speaks Bas Indonesia let's let's just say let's just assume only speak English indes just by showing hey guys I'm trying my best to learn to learn Indonesian mhm right that's in a very micro scale of things you get right it's in a very micro scale things but if you zoom out we need to show the third culture C the diaspora need to show that we're trying at least no matter if it yields results or not I think it's on to us to to combat the negative stereotype that that's going against us yeah I agree I agree and I think for me if if I were to answer I think the key is in empathy in a sense what does empathy mean it means that you can understand how others think like where they're coming from and I feel like a lot a lot of um Indonesians who grew up internationally of course they see the world differently than how most Indonesians see themselves see the world and things like that and people know when you're being talked down on got it yeah like people know and I feel like some again like like we emphasized earlier like people who for example uh are more comfortable speaking in English who grew up internationally usually they come from a place of privilege yeah and it's so easy for them to just like criticize Indonesia see all the shortcomings and just paint them as black and white either good or bad while failing to see the nuances and complexities of why it happens because again for example um things can be very like for example the The Joy thing yeah the joy thing yeah it's clearly wrong it's clearly wrong but you can acknowledge that it's wrong and also acknowledge why it's so prevalent because there are some cultural and structural things that are amplifying it yeah that's absolutely true yeah and I think when you when you stop blaming people and start to talk in the and acknowledge the nuances I think that will lower the sense of animosity and just not antagonize people that's the key not antagonize people I think that's the key too much too much both sides are always trying to antagonize one another yeah it's like us against them yeah it's us against them us against them guys guys it's it it doesn't the mindset and the perception doesn't have to be that that's the whole point doesn't have to be that yeah and again Indonesia our slogan is uh unity and diversity like we are diverse and that I think that's why precisely because Indonesia is diverse it's so hard to be United if a nation is monocultural it's so easy to be United because we have the same sense of uh values we like Japan for example Japan is the easiest example it's so easy because everyone's definition of progress everyone's definition of good and bad is the same but with Indonesia like we're so diverse and people say that it can be a strength it can be if it's managed well but it is the potential of it's our biggest challenge as well okay okay okay and divers diversity is not just about like ethnic and religion things like that but it's also like how people were raised the history that uh they understand like the lenses they View World in and how they connect to the nation yeah I agree I agree okay abigel we still have a couple of minutes remaining and I want to end it with fun spliceable Tik Tok Instagram [ __ ] okay cuz that you got to think social media marketing wise and that's why I'm here also go for it all right go for it yeah all right soon your top five favorite stub bu Augustus games oh okay it's like d it's like anov under show draft pick okay okay who goes first let's just rock paper sciss okay oh whatever the okay I go first you go first my favorite to juas Augustus game clearly is is the is the number one okay I'm so good espe when when you when you go right and by this why is why why are we talking about this cuz this is also one of the ways that the diaspora people connect cuz I remember cuz being a dipl brat I knew every time 17th of August embassies around IND around the they the thing and people come l so that's number one okay do three three three three three okay oh and then now me now you yeah whoa that's a good one so fun disclaimer I'm a bit afraid of really Slim I know I I always like it it's it's so fun okay so you're blut okay second clearly guys it's that thing where you have to lick the coin of chocolate from the aat smka no it's the coin you don't know that game a coin the thing and then it's filled with chocolate and you have to get the coin ohaa then you got the SMA chocolate coin game whatever that game is called please correct me okay interesting there is that that chocolate coin and you have to get it with your with your teeth that's my number two okay okay my number two uh oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so fun that's a good one my number three my last one is where you put a pencil down your bottom oh and Bott yeah whoever made that game crazy okay yo where did they get the inspiration from fun fact Google me or correct me if I'm wrong not Google me say Google it all of these games were inspired by the Dutch yeah which is very interesting so so the history is another top the history is actually kind of dark kind of dark it's a very dark but we've made it into our own that's very Indonesian that's very Indonesian something that's dark we made it into our own dark and came from a place of suffering suffering but we use wit and humor to make it our own and I think that's very Indonesian that's very indonation that's true I love that my third one um maybe lat Bal yeah yeah okay so that's my top three that's iig top three please vote in the comments which is better yep okay clearly the pencil in the bottom in the ass okay okay anyway so iig you you want anything else to talk about before we close it cuz I do want to talk about like like I want to I want to tell people to comment on [ __ ] comment I'm good I'm good yeah so guys um this is our first episode of the we we podcast we don't I mean that's a if you guys have better names please or if you think that's a good name already there you go and we want to do many things we want to do Q&A later on right yes we want to do where you guys just ask ask us question you guys don't have to be a member of the weebos but how do you okay how do you join the weeo membership how do well I mean just following Wei is already uh um joining it but if you want to go deeper there's the Discord community that you can join that's that's or andovi forgets his login so he can never log then the Discord ever again forgot my Discord login um and we also have a journal club that oh yeah each batch goes for like six months right now the third batch is running so watch out for batch four I guess okay so that's how you be become a a member of the weeo community oh and we have like some meetups too so just like watch touch grass touch grass Meetup next one is band right yes when Augustus which you remember 30 31st of Aug August okay so get that and if you guys want any guests on Wii podcast comment below please guys internet do your magic web boots comment who you want who do you want as guest please no FES no young papa no degeneracy proper guest guys okay proper guests okay yes proper you know you know that was a very bad English accent and yeah and what other segments you going to talk about you know maybe quickfire segments games quizzes topics what topics topics guys go crazy this is our first first podcast and criticize us please feel free to criticize us yes and know you suck abigel what the hell you talking about criticize us if we're ready to Dish it we have to take it y whatever it is we're dishing we have to take yeah and and yeah yeah that's it I guess thank you for tuning in thank you for tuning in uh I haven't said this in a long time but don't forget to like comment and subscribe to the what is up Indonesia YouTube channel how does it feel I it feels theraputic it feels very cathartic I haven't said it in like three years like comment subscribe I haven't said that in three years cuz now people in Tik Tok they say share share repost and comment they don't say like comment subscribe anymore it's it's a it's so outdated before it was like share comment repost yeah can share comment repost right yeah yep wow wow and doy going back to YouTube Feels talking about nationalism wow and by the way both of my YouTube channels not this is not my YouTube channel but both of the channels on YouTube has the word Indonesia in it skinny Indonesian 24 what is up Indonesia I'm just Ling I'm letting you know true I'm just I'm just letting you know if that's not a form of nationalism I don't know I don't know what it is yeah exactly exactly guys thank you so much my name is andov VI Lopez and abig M not abigel P okay Pi panii not abig please panii you're a World selling standup comedian you can't spell out names come on I'm calling you out she she's not calling you P I'm calling you I'm just kidding I love you P thank you for letting me do open mics in New York thank you all right that's it see you guys in the next episode bye bye