foreign ERS and welcome to another episode of the GI huddle I'm Tim Poole editor of gaming Insider and I'm with Marcus Lim CEO of Vault Corporation Marcus thanks very much for joining us today thanks for your time Tim glad to be here I'm very much looking forward to hearing your stories and speaking to you about your career so far as well as what you're up to at the moment um given that you've got a very interesting story I'm sure our viewers are gonna gonna enjoy uh you know what you have to say could you give us maybe by way of intro um your early background and tell us a little bit about how it all started for you uh well um my first devil into the gaming industry was with Sans China I was recruited Into Sunshine to be based in Macau uh but before that before that I'd always been an entrepreneur at heart I've tried various forms of Industries various forms of businesses I even started my own Bakery I've run a week boarding Center and I've doubled into defense construction as well right called defense items uh with the government in Singapore so yeah so when I was hit-and-hearted into a role into gaming in Macau I was so excited and I just plunged in [Music] I mean I have to ask after hearing those kind of just those three examples how to kind of the bakery the defense industry and gaming how like how do they compare yeah it's weird it's all life experiences uh so as you know singaporeans we need to serve national service and when I was a national service I was a Weapon Specialist I came in contact with some of my suppliers and they said hey you know you get a great personality and you know let's try this out and I I tried it off right after my national service in the Army um it was a little bit too boring for me because one tendering process takes about eight to nine months and right after that when I was traveling into Philippines and I just encountered this really nice fun they called they have in Philippines called ensemada and I said that's Friday in Singapore and yeah we did that for a while um margins are great but it's um there's a terrible hard-working business I so I admired all the chefs there's too much work yeah and then the wakeboarding was was really fun and sea right so it was it was a trend and I you know demo into it and it's a real fun but um you know that was not my calling I knew there was something else um that I want to do and I was trying beats and pieces everything here and then until I got involved and uh with since China and that's what I was like hey I'm set I want to do this for the rest of my life because you know it just feels so comfortable yeah absolutely um I can get straight into asking you kind of about about your time with with Sans and obviously there's the the Marina Bay Sands as part of your experience as well which you know fantastic property I'm I'm yet to visit but you know we've uh we've got colleagues who've who go to the shows and they love it well I I think I think honestly it is the best um property in the world right now um you know in actual fact my duration of a sense uh we're in a business was just three months I was with sandshreiner in Venetian Macau uh you know for a good tour toward yes uh me being a Singapore I decided to come back Singapore because my wife was expecting my first child yeah then I became back Singapore but during the end um you know crowned was was aggressively trying to recruit me and I came back to Singapore I realized that hey it's too good at property you don't really need me um I took on the challenge with crown yeah but I haven't said that I think Marina Bay Sands is currently really the best property in the world right now they have they have the right Hardware and I think they have the right software they're the right team on board it's just fantastic and and they're and brings in a lot of Technology along the way so yeah all customer preferences um you can you can you can get your room key card without having a key card you just use a phone all this kind of stuff I think they're really innovating and and uh yeah it's I can only see great things coming from Marina Bay Sands in time to come um how did your time compact uh kind of when you're in Singapore and in Macau I mean my first impression would be that when you're working in a Macau Casino there's a lot more focus on the gaming itself I mean is that is that correct in actual fact we have different teams yeah since China is such a big company right I mean the whole sense group is such big company we have uh various teams and I'm involved uh I'm in charge of my own team uh the way I do it all these years uh ever since I started I understand that the the gamblers I mean the game itself is the same everywhere in the world the same house Arts maybe the felt is a different color but you you definitely on the bar program you have the banker and play it back that's your parents in the past so so there's no big differential Factor uh if you want to sell just gambling and so on on its own and I always thinking the fact that hey Tom Macau um great food uh great convenience in between properties you know historical landmarks a lot of the non-gaming aspects that I've been doing for the last all these years that I've been doing and it was a lot of success um we don't the art of selling gambling is not really to sell gambling because that's part of the deal on the way by the way if you like it if if gambling something that that is uh part of your hobby as part of entertainment Soviet but you know if not there's a whole lot of stuff in that one destination that you can talk about that is a differentiation between Philippine Singapore Macau um Korea and anywhere else in the world it's the destination yeah I mean definitely in Las Vegas there's you know there's this focus on um you know non-gaming revenues and how the comparison of of you know I was told once the MGM CEO quoted me quoted saying um it used to be 65 Gaming revenue 35 non-giving now it's flipped it's the other way so effectively kind of from what you're saying in the art of selling gambling is is that you know similar across the board it's the experience that you're selling and and the destination you know not just in Vegas but Vegas maybe they I think they they're always Reinventing itself as well absolutely so so you can only sell I mean if you start a conversation about gambling you can only last five minutes right let me start a conversation about experiences what you can offer them um off gaming yeah uh you know what what food is there you can you can build a lot excitement with that so so that's what I've already been doing for all these years is to build that excitement build that need create that pain you know to come and visit right sooner than later and that's what that's what you know if anybody asked me why am I in some way successful in all these 10 years or 15 years is because I don't I don't sell gambling it's it's gambling is only a five minutes conversation whereas everything else is so much more and creating memories you know creating uh really bespoke experiences I I think that's what I live for absolutely um you mentioned crown and and that kind of move um can you can you talk us through that and again maybe how did that compare to um obviously the the regions and the properties that already stand out that you've mentioned so Mccalla has always been a gaming Hub uh there are a lot of expenses there but they the fact of the matter is a lot of customers that go to Macau they tend to spend a little bit more time in gaming that's why the gaming volumes are always very high right so me going and and Macau being the Hub it's very centralized located it's two three hours from River in Asia so it's what I consider a short-haul destination and when I was recruiting the crowd um and I was the head of Singapore branch office uh immediately the big big problem that they're having was they used to be enjoying about two billion or two point you know close to three billion worth of turnover per annum until Marina Bay Sands open and results will open in Singapore we're talking about specifically Singapore customers right Singapore region customers and when I when I was when when I went into Crown um the alternative was from a two or two or three billion uh per annum to a 200 million turnover that is terrible right um the uphill challenge for me during then was the novelty of Marina Bay Sands and Resorts World Is Still so Raw it's still so dead um people are refusing to travel and you know worst part Crown um it's a seven hour destination away from Singapore so I would consider a long-haul destination so the same as Vegas right it's considered a long-haul destination from Singapore yeah uh so so so it was with Melvin as well um again if I'm gonna just tell people in Singapore come to gamble in craft in Australia immediate remark would be dude Marina Bay is just 15 minutes with my house why do you want us why do we want to pack my bag pay for first class ticket and you know go there and do the same thing so the strategy was again destination marketing go Pat a koala go see a kangaroo right you don't have that in the sample we'll take care of your family you just come and have a great time we'll we will pack you on a great ocean Drive uh we'll put in the botless put you in the picnic great weather in Australia that kind of stuff right so um it took a bit of time uh but by the third year when I was in Crown we have raised uh I mean me and my team it's just not me right it's me and my team we have raised the turnover from a mere 200 million to about 2.2 billion in just three years and on the very last year when we before I left I think I left the business at 2.8 billion web of turnover but of course it's not me and my team it's the whole executive team everybody's involved we had uh we had great leadership during that um taught me a lot Innovative um products uh innovative ways of uh selling and uh yeah we'll all put on on proper sales training to make sure that everybody knows what they're selling and how to sell and how to close it right so kudos to all the executives In Crowd during then I think we were pretty um impressive during that point of time yeah yeah obviously you've you've not owned the business now and and what's been going on last couple of years what we see with with kind of crown is you know every time crowns in the news we kind of we ask uh what now you know what's what what regulatory event has happened at this time obviously you're not with the business anymore but as someone who who was there and as you say during this time of transition to you know I think with the numbers you said it's fair to say successful transition right how do you kind of see the situation a crown and then you've got the star as well in Australia right now well uh two separate companies uh two separate experiences with these two companies and I only have good things to say about these two companies uh they were part of my journey in my career and I thank everybody who I've worked with um you know it goes with every other company out there in the world but you know I I love the people I work with I have full-on respect for the people I work for um even till now I I still hold them a lot of gratitude I think Crown um cloud has already said very Superior Hardware they have always a very Superior properties um sure they're having a lot of regulatory hate wins right now um they were taken over by Blackstone and look I I think um it's a matter of time right now it used to be all pro business and and now it's all regulation on compliance which is good right regulation good regulations it's only good for any business in the world I think now that is a period of time where it's still very raw they're coming up with all of this um uh uh fines and all this kind of stuff I think at one point of time the regulators and the business will see eye to eye and see uh this works this doesn't work and I think the the bridge will be met soon so I think everybody is just going through oh no we don't do this we don't do that that kind of stuff I think the regulars are also trying to figure out um what is great for business and what must be done to ensure that AML and and uh compliance is also all seen true so it's a Tiffin it's a tipping period right now I think for Australian Market but I'm but I'm very sure uh you know a good mind would Prevail um you know if if there's a question of casinos are really bad then I would suggest you know close it out right but since they have not closed it down I believe they're trying to find a way that everybody can work together and everybody can be sure that whatever they're doing is correct and right so I think in time to come it should be all right give us give us some time yeah no that's that's the that's a positive outlook and as you say you know there was talk of maybe the license being stripped but I guess that's an important point that they didn't and as you say that suggests yeah the regulator seats well there's a way forward yeah I mean this is not just crown and star the the Pokey machines the clubs around Australia but those are contributing a big portion of Revenue today um to Australia as well right so so not just cloud and star I think the regulars are trying are really trying to figure out um what is good what must be done and if this companies could comply and uh if they could comply and and it's logical I I think it's it would only be just be good for the business in time to time yeah absolutely um no I'm very confident that Australian Market would do um well I wouldn't say we do better than before but it would definitely bounce back from wherever it's right now because you know it's probably ground zero right now you can only go up yeah I've gotta I've got a couple more topics uh to ask you about kind of your your kind of Journey so far and what you're working on at the moment one but uh seeing as we've talked about the Australian kind of landscape I think it'll be appropriate segue to ask you about the you know the Asian gaming landscape in general because you mentioned kind of Singapore already earlier Marina Bay Sands you know there's there's a lot of strength there the Philippines has seen a lot of growth um but I guess the interesting one is Macau because we we haven't had a lot of a lot of talk saying oh my car is I I think some some really incorrect kind of headlines saying Macau is is has fallen and and is done it was always going to come back but I guess the key question is with with the kind of reduced junkets and things like that is the peak is the is the peak long term gonna still be less I don't know what are your thoughts um well I think I've always have strong faith in Macau right because of of one thing the proximity to in Asia the scent it is at the center of Asia right and we're talking about Transportation going in and out that's one uh big key Point uh the other key point is um the hardware in Macau combined together with the sixth concession is um they have a lot of rules they have a lot of space and all these properties are are really six star or even Seven Stars right now what is lacking is it's it's uh we've done the junkets and the credit for sneakers and all this kind of stuff what is slacking else is you know Executives and this in this in these companies being extra Innovative and extra creative and trying to create experiences gamblers but for all customers to visit the car now if that is the only thing I think it's quite simple if you need to build the seven star hotel over again now that's going to be a trouble but they have all this Hardware yeah all you need is great sales people great representation um you know people that believe in your brand uh and and would sell correctly um and I said you know you don't sell gambling you just sell everything all at once right yeah that's I understand it's a little bit about the Vegas motor right some people go there they hit hakasan you know it was hakkasan in Seasons yeah they hate hakasan to go to a great night at the nightclubs um they go to watch Britney Spears you know you're making you're making money from tickets you're making money from the clubs you're making money from the FNB and if they do a little punting then fantastic that it's all about picking up the pieces the beats and pieces right you know back in the days you just have to okay Mr junk operator this is your current facilities this is yours go sell I don't want to know too much right so I think that that model is a little bit of the past yeah I'm not saying that you don't need junkers I don't I'm not saying they don't need an agency but think of it the the Raw the role what is the junker operator a John could operate is no different than the marketing agency it's just that third party along the way yeah precisely right it's a referral business right I refer customers to you blah blah but along the way some some people just got a little bit more creative than they should be and which got to some some issues um but other than that a jungle is no different than just a marketing agency or just a third party referral business yeah if it's viewed in that in that space uh I think it could continue uh it's up to because concessionaires and how to understand what they want to do how they want to do it but look coming back to Singapore Singapore has no chunk of operators they're running a pure premium Direct business and it has been doing well yeah sure they take on a little bit more credit risk they take on a little bit more hit count in in terms of fulfillment stuff they take on a little bit more hit count in sales right but having said that um it has been it has been working yeah everything seems to be working very well so I think Macau um you know the trunk and operators has not been there for like what 40 50 years um it's a big shift in Paradigm right now I'm not saying that you know junkets would be will be obsolete looks like obsolete right now but I'm sure there are people out there who are who are willing or understands compliance who understands the need for kyc that would stand up and say hey I think we could help this concession is we can help you um to bring in more business but we're doing it the right way again it's the same Australia Australia they you know Macau has to come to a point where I say okay I think we can still work with people who understand this compliance and kycs and stuff like that and you know try it out yeah well only my one difficulty with with you know you'd say kind of selling the experience Macau I guess does have to compete with with as if Singapore has a lot going for it in terms of you know the the destination and kind of you know Vegas even Australia I guess you say it's quite far away from Asia but there's there's kind of gets more to do more to see there than is that you know is that or as you say is that just a good salesperson can can still pitch that right all right I put a great salesperson I mean there's a there's a great thing that says the Eskimo can sell I mean a great system itself right yeah so so you if you if you put me put me on the ground and say thank you Mark yourself some account you know I would say what what I'll do I'll serve food first of all the food in Macau and the food and Singapore's and poly different entirely different right so I can just go to a street corner and find the best food and we just sell that we could sell you know um you know in the car I always go back to this this old man that that sells hand beaten coffee I've never tried a can of coffee before and that it's very small little thing but you know it works so look um I don't think that there is a problem in selling Mattel it's just every place has this unique selling points you know my team would be laughing when I say this right I've been selling the sun and the Sea for Australia for the last 10 years and it still works right um you know in Macau I you know it's just an entirely different location and we just need to the salesperson need to fall in love with the location that they're working with understand that location true and true um which is the local Spirit right if you can bring the local Spirit to the customer and excite them and entice them in a way um they will come they will come but of course if there's more uh things to do in Macau for example golf simulators or you know more clubs more non-gaming exposures I think that would be fun that could be cool and I mean I just came back from Macau it's it's different it's very different from the junky days but um you know it's still home to me it is still home to me um yeah yeah very very nice still very nice place it's it's the rooms are to die for I've never seen rooms better than that not not in Australia not in Vegas they have the best rooms yeah well I've really enjoyed talking to you so far we've learned a lot and for my final question I think I think we can end on a high because I want to ask you a little bit about obviously you've talked us through a lot of your career so far um I'll give you a chance to talk a little bit about what you're doing now with Vault but also you know you've you've dealt with a lot of high rollers you know a lot of big Net players I'm not big name players right big players um the opposite of your name perhaps um and you know if I'm not mistaking you you've kind of got a book on this topic as well so I thought if you could if you could uh tell us about what you're doing now but maybe end with you know pick some of your kind of your best stories for of kind of dealing with with uh stories that you know you're allowed to tell and then I think that's that I'll be a that'll be a nice way to conclude well the stories though it's allowed to tell it's all written in my book how well right so it's all there but um yeah let me run through one one interesting story view but before that let me tell you what exactly what exactly I'm do we bought so um you know during the pandemic we all make redundant and the whole team and I um and I just felt that there's there's still a lot of things that I have to give I can't give I can share with this industry and I just don't want to give up right now um and I decided to create a company that um address all these kyc and compliance and trans and full-on transparency uh issues right um we hope at Vault we hope to be the branch office or this sales outfit that every Casino in any location would love to have right it's it's a very simple concept where you can engage Us in both we can run sales for you we can run marketing events and all this kind of things for you and we work on a subscription model where it's a little retainer and we only get that big paycheck when we perform uh and that's so important right we you can hire 100 sales people but if they can't perform you're just wasting a lot of operational expenses uh but here we always saying that nope we're gonna we're gonna take this bad along with you small little subscription uh retainer and if we hit that it'd be the number that that we all agreed upon the bonus sector comes in it's a performance model so that's exactly what vote is all about um yeah we still try and figure out I think it's a uh the idea is a little bit I love you a lot of Executives telling me is it my personal uh sales is one of the most crucial departments in our company uh you know if we give it to you and if you do well we might be out of job and that could be the truth but um well we're just trying to figure out I think as the world opens up um the need for Revenue becomes more and more um assistant and I think we we have been persistent for the last three years to keep the ship in this direction and I think we should be signing a few good contracts coming up soon now sounds fantastic and and if we could if we could let's say run through one of those stories but let's see if we could do it like a a quick fire quick fire two minute story and then leave us wanting more anyone who wants to know more can get your book I think my story my I think one of the stories I want to share with everybody it's especially for sales people and that's one of the main reasons why I wrote a book my royalty is a dollar per book right so I'm not going to get rich doing selling books but what I want to share with the audience was was watching and um you know have the time and patience to go through with um what I want to say and if you're running sales um there are customers that are that are extremely difficult uh and they're very pricey that means to say they want this prize um we don't have to cave in all the time the odd the real art in selling is always to hold a line and make sure that it's balance between a customer and a company right customer wants everything on this side it's our job as salesperson to make sure that hey look we are we we are drawing a salary from the company right so we're going to take our company's interests at heart and and we're going to make sure that hey look um it's a bit too much let's try and even it out the art in sales is really not to sell is the art in the sales is really to to say no when you when you can't do it and say no in a way that they could accept it right so I've encountered customers that that is extremely extremely difficult not in the way that he asks for a lot of stuff but he he just doesn't tell me what he wants and I've been trying to figure out what he wants for a long time it took me six months or eight months to figure out what he wants and when I figure out what he wants he he came immediately to the property that I was trying to sell um he didn't want it much he just wanted to learn more about me make sure that he can trust me and probably a friend so what I'm trying to say is sometimes when we want to close the sale as fast as we want it to be it might not happen um it needs time just as we want the customer to come the customer wants to know if he if we know exactly what he wants um to happen in that trip because to them all these high-level individuals what is most important to them is time they don't want to waste time they want to make sure that if they're going to embark on a journey with you you want to make sure that they're going to have great time so if you can ensure that through great relationship building it would happen so don't give up I guess absolutely playing this little long game but um yeah Marcus a huge thanks for your time really really enjoyed hearing uh you know a nice variety as well we talked to Australia we're talking about how I talk Singapore and it's a no yeah really insightful well yeah thank you very much all right thanks Tim thank you