Transcript for:
Introduction to Facility Management Standards

foreign hello good day and welcome thank you everybody for joining us today for our lunch and learn session um on the introduction to facility management standards and in particular BSI em ISO 41001. I think I have control of this pack as the um robot lady will have said uh as we joined you are in listen only mode but this is a live event so please do interact via the questions feature and we will answer as many of your questions as we can at the end of our three presentations and to try and preempt the uh the most common question yes a recording of this session is being made and a copy of that and the slides will be available on the BSI website so any colleagues that couldn't attend or those that had such a great time they want to relive it have the experience again um indeed when I checked yesterday um I was able to go back and see webinars that we did two or three years ago so they're on there for some time I've also been asked to highlight that there is a survey that gets sent out at the end of our webinar at webinar and that helps BSI and US understand how we did and what would you like to see more of and what would you like to see less of um my name is Nick Blake I chair bsi's technical committee fmw1 and I also sit on the Strategic committee for FM fmb1 my J job so to speak is a associate director for Gardner and Theobald specialist FM procurement and business process Improvement consultancy team and I'm going to be starting things off for us today with a short talk about what standards are and how they come about and what they can be used for but it's not just my doll set tones that you'll have to put up with um we also have two more fantastic speakers Adrian uh who is chair of fmb1 he's going to be speaking to us about our infographic and sharing some insights into a range of the available FM standards we have um that are mostly already available to us and a few that are still in production um and we're rounding things out with uh Brian you can also see happens on screen now um Brian sits on both of the FM standards committees for BSI and has supported the groups with drafting many of our standards um he's going to be sharing some insightful perceptions of iso 41001 FM's answer to ISO 9001. so I'm going to turn off my camera now we're going to jump into the presentation let's see a little bit more of the screen we've got a couple my first role today is to help mythbust standards and their creation specifically FM standards and also what they're used for we're going to start with the organizations responsible for writing standards BSI our hosts are recognized as the world's first national standards body and one of the most prolific standards creators you're seeing on screen a tiny selection of the um nsbs around the world we've got America and Australia down at the bottom here because we do a lot of work with them they've also got very mature FM markets I've put Italy up there for personal reasons and India because I like that their initials were the same as ours but the other way around in fact there are 167 National bodies who are members of isova International Organization for standardization 126 of those are full members like BSI they're shown in Blue on this map I've listed from the iso website there are 810 technical committees and subcommittees within the iso structure that undertake standards development ISO TC or technical committee 267 is the one that we have primary interest in as that is the facilities management TC or technical committee it's been exist in existence for a little over a decade has published six standards and has another six standards under development for the longest time I was frustrated that the International Organization for standardization couldn't spell its own acronym but in reality ISO is actually a derogation of a Greek word isos meaning equal so whatever the country whatever the language the short version of their name is always ISO now I think that's kind of cool now I know that um there are more Regional versions of Standards groups such as sen uh Committee of open the normalization or the European Committee of normalization or standardization and um senilek which is a electrotechnical focus sen and sennelec bring together the national standards bodies or nsbs of 34 geographical European countries including ours I believe sen is uh based in Belgium BSI our hosts for today were first formed by Design the designer of tower bridge in London incidentally on the day that Queen Victoria died back in January of 1901. one of the first standards that they produced was related to Steel tramways I mentioned that to show that standards and the built environment have always been very close bed fellows yes nowadays there there may be a standard for making tea but the built environment and standards have got the longest history there's also an element of Pride for those that are in the know as many of the standards is especially one of the best known standards around the world originally started their lives here I put this slide together so that we can talk about the nomenclature of Standards how they're named you can see at the top here we have a BS em ISO uh what this signifies is that the iso standard has been adopted at both the European and a British level the BS being the British standard and the en being European the one in the middle I chose that as many will be familiar with this um and it's there so that I can talk about parts the 19650 series all talk about Bim or building building information modeling but there are various sections currently there's Parts one to five published part six is well on the way and about zero I believe is in its infancy um they talk about each of those parts talk about a specific subtopic and then this one I put up here so that we can talk about wider Series so all of the 41 000 series talk about um FM they're they're all written about FM as you're going to see on here during Adrian's presentation the four one zero something something standards relate to the massively wide topic of FM but our Standalone topics in and of themselves they may in turn have Parts like we saw up here um and we're going to go into a little bit more depth about this one specific standard uh that's that's what Brian will be sharing his insights on later so we've had a little look at uh what standards are how they get named now let's have a look at how we actually use these first off their guidance so for the most most part following them is optional there are a few near exceptions to that rule and a list of some of those exceptions relevant to our field are found in these industry guides here bg80 came out just over a year ago um maybe by a week or three and that focuses on statutory compliance this Builds on the tables that were in the 2014 version of guide M which is again being Rewritten as we speak and it's probably going to be with us later on this year now what these guides do is help us understand what standards are referenced in sis or statutory instruments SLI statue instruments are are primary or secondary legislation they get supported by approved codes of practices and government guidance now in some cases these May refer to industry guidance including standards for example the electricity at work regulations of 89 refers to HSE HSR or health and safety regulations 25. and that in turn relates to a British standard so what that effectively does is mean that if you don't do what the standard says you need to prove how what you are doing is better or at least as good as what's written in the standard there's another example on screen here generally though these standards are there to support you we are all busy and we don't get the white space we need in our calendars for reflection uh the sort of reflection required to create new systems processes procedures sometimes we don't even get the time to polish up existing ones and that is where these guidance documents can come into their own as a baseline to get you most of the way to the solution and provide something that's been publicly ratified Taps into multiple experts to support your own expertise and really bring best practice to the form one of the other ways that standards are used is to add a little bit of icing to your cake I'm Gonna Let Brian talk a little bit more about accreditation accreditation and how that can be used to Benchmark you and your organization as leaders in the FM field what can you do if you want to get involved in standards well one of the easiest ways is to comment on uh new standards review them and and feedback on them as they come out you do need to register on the BSA website this is the web address that you will need to register on takes you to this page here use free to register login search for the specific standard that you're looking for um and then make a difference you can make comments on um you know grammar spelling or punctuation or we're all human and can make typos and and miss them um but you can also make comment on the technical uh side of things so if you if you believe that some of the information presented is inaccurate this is where you can feedback on that and if you can think of something else that you could make a comment on you have those sorts of comments too also on the page is ideas you can go as far as suggesting a new topic for standardization if you feel there is a gap please go to this same site and share your Insight those will all come through and and be reviewed by the Committees so this is another option for people getting involved in standards there are two standards groups that I mentioned right at the very beginning a technical committee and a strategic committee Adrian and I are supported by an amazing group of generous dedicated knowledgeable individuals and we've got representatives from a really wide range of backgrounds but we're always looking to diversify further and raise our inclusivity so if you would like to have a chat about what's involved please take a photo or a screen grab we've got contact details on this slide and you can get in touch at the moment we've got a lot of projects on the go so as you can see from the list here we um that this is taken off the BSI website uh this one down here we will always welcome more experts to join the course and support our teams so to wrap up maybe I can go to this one um I've spoken about the nsbs the other Hub of Standards creation we've had a look at how standards can be used and you've been given some ideas of how you too can get involved to close whether this is something that you have always wanted to do or something that you've just now been made aware of and inspired to get involved with now is the time to get in contact if you missed my contact details from the previous slide they're on the next slide too so all that's left for me is to thank you very much for listening to my brief introduction to standards and remind you to use the questions feature I've seen a few coming in as I've been chatting uh use that questions feature to send us inquiries and the last thing for me to do is to introduce Adrian who will be taking us on a journey through some specific FM standards Adrian over to you black snake well good afternoon everybody um I'm Adrian Brooks and there's Nick said I'm chair of FNB one my day job I'm a principal in uh at Davidson Young so what is the facility management infographic well the infographic seeks to collate the range of facility management related standards that currently exist and reference them against stages of the property life cycle which we've signed posted here the stages one to five you'll also noted uh a number of standards that are currently under development and I'll give you a preview of these uh at the end towards the end of the presentation I realized that the detail of the infographic on this slide is too small to read but a full version of it is available to download and actually the link is about to be put into the chat for today's purpose is important that you're aware of what standards exist and at what stage they're typically used but it is worth noting as Nick referenced earlier that many of the ISO standards in this area had their Origins from the BSI committees here in the UK so something to be proud of we can now examine the content at each stage however time today prevents a detailed treatment of each standard but I can at least give you a flavor of their content as you might expect some of these standards are applicable to more than one stage and where this is the case they're shown for completeness but I will mention their content on the first reference of that standard so moving into a quiet space and if we start with this stage one there are three standards referenced here the first 41011 provides us with a vocabulary of terms which brings Clarity with definitions as industry professionals we take some of the terms we use for granted but standards of this are valuable to gain consistency when dealing with those outside the industry and especially when working across geographies so this standard is accompanied by 41012. and which provides guidance on strategic sourcing it provides very useful guidance on the stages of strategic sorting with annexes that provide an example structure of things like a business case the key components of FM agreements and also the related service level agreements the final standards shown at this stage at this early stage of the property life cycle is 41 014. the development of FM strategy so this standard provides a thorough treatment of the considerations in developing an FM strategy with examples of threats and opportunities factors affecting business strategy and including an example with the linkage show importantly between the FM requirements and The Core Business objectives design space or we've got two standards reference here bs8536 which was updated recently in 2022 and expanded for me the key here in the title is operability operability of the assets or assets delivered as part of the project that is to say the degree to which the asset is capable of being put into use as intended as facility management professionals we all recognize the benefit being involved at an early stage in the design process so that when the facility is completed we're familiar with how it should operate and that it does function as intended this can range from simple storage considerations visitor and staff Journeys through the facility to fundamental adjacencies aligned to the soft Landings framework this is a valuable standard for anybody taking responsibility for a facility post-change includes a range of example checklists and we'll figure elsewhere in property lifecycle ISO 41018 provides guidance on the development of an FM policy the policy is a framework that sits between both the FM strategy and operational plans it's intended to complement the guidance already included within 41001 itself and provides advice on those decisions that affect the management of the facility and the delivery of Facility Services it also provides guidance for any internal or external audit programs construct space as previously discussed 8536 is also prominent throughout the construction phase as a design evolves and moves into construction it's important that the efficacy of the design and the operability within it are not compromised or where changes are necessary this operability element is properly considered bs8572 deals with the procurement of those Facility Services necessary to support the facility post-completion invariably the process envisaged within this standard should start long before the construction phase is completed the standard was complementary to the iso 410012 strategic sourcing and and as I mentioned earlier but it sets out the stages recommended for the procurement of these services included with this standard are a number of useful annexes that provide a detailed checklist of actions an example option evaluation Matrix and an example scope of a pre-qualification questionnaire this is a useful standard for employers consultants and service providers involved in the procurement process fit out space moving space four standards are referenced here bs8572 on procurement will continue again throughout this period but also bsen 152216 is concerned with area and space measurement within facilities management it presents a framework for measuring floor areas within buildings and areas outside the buildings in addition it contains clear terms and definitions as well as methods for measuring horizontal areas and volumes in buildings and or parts of buildings independent of their function ISO 41014 Facilities Management policy remains applicable in setting up the facility but here we reference for the first time bs-8892 transition management this standard deals with the transition Arrangements required whether that represents the change from one service provider to another the insulting or Outsourcing or the setting up of operations for the first time it recommends the adoption of a project-based approach to transition with all the components you would expect within a project I.E Define scope tasks timelines resources and costs but all of this importantly is within a risk-bounded environment it's packed with useful guidance an example Gantt chart and a comprehensive checklist of actions this is useful for employers practitioners and suppliers alike manage space well managed space is a big area and there's some seven standards referenced here but first bs-8210 was updated in 2020 and represents an expansion of an already big area it provides guidance on the development of facilities maintenance strategy and the key stakeholders to be involved excuse me it recommends the development of a maintenance policy the use of a facility handbook and a series of good practice activities to ensure that assets are suitable for their intended purpose and perform their function throughout their useful life by doing so protect their value the standard provides guidance on selection of different preventative maintenance ratings and the development of relevant key performance indicators it provides some detailed guidance to help all involved in the operation and maintenance of facility assets bs8544 is the standard for life cycle costing which is in many respects complementary to eight to ten is focused on the in-use phases of facilities or constructed assets this latter Point extends the application of the standard Beyond just buildings and into structures and other forms of construction it also provides some useful guidance on the capture of asset information overall it enables owners to identify the most efficient and affordable way to buy operate and maintain a facility or constructed asset bs8587 is the standard for facility information management and it supports the efficient and effective management of this information in order to derive the optimal use and benefit from the facility itself if we consider the component parts of this information there's a long list which includes drawings and specifications operation and maintenance manuals as well as legals and commercials and that's really just for starters so what is needed is a structured approach to this information so that it can be compiled maintained and readily communicated bs8587 can offer guidance in this area it should be noted that 8587 doesn't cover the information and data required to deliver the operational set but includes recommended actions excuse me to assist in safe correct efficient and effective operation of the asset 152213 this standard provides guidance on how to measure achieve and improve quality in facilities management and it's complementary to one of the most universally known standards ISO 9001 it provides a link into management methods and theories and follows the plan do check and act approach it could be placed in a number of stages of the property life cycle but as this stage is focused on the management of the space performance of Service delivery is vitally important excuse me staying with managed space bscn 152214 where 41 011 gave us FM terminology with the clarity of terms and definitions of these 152214 provides us a classification of processes products services and activities it adopts a product perspective and aligns with the Core Business activities of the organization its key benefit is that introduces a client rather than an asset or intuitive View 1521 5 this standard is all about processes and the development Improvement of them but importantly in support of the primary processes or Core Business activities it sets out the basic principles describes high-level FM processes but does so from a demand perspective for an audience of all stakeholders now the last one here and that's a long title is Conformity assessment and what is that well once the standard is in place an organizations wish to be certified to that standard then a Conformity assessment is used to describe the requirements for the body certified this ensures that the bodies have the appropriate competencies and know what they're looking for when they carry out their audits in this particular instance this is the Conformity standard for the FM management system 41001. so review space leaving space four standards are referenced here facility maintenance is as clickable as as is the life cycle cost and once the decision to move or leave the space has been made then transition management is also very pertinent but what we haven't yet discovered is 152217 so this is standard establishes a common basis for benchmarking whether that's Facilities Management costs floor areas environmental impact as well as service quality satisfaction and productivity it contains clear terms and definitions as well as methods for benchmarking facilities management whether that's products and services or Facilities Management organizations and their operations a useful tool for practitioners well work continues by standard makers in this discipline and and this list gives you a taste of what is to come I'd like to pick out one of these as the title's not necessarily the simplest 41015 influence in organizational behaviors for improved facilities outcomes in essence what this standard is seeking to support is the use of the facility and the way it was intended the aim is to provide recommendations and guidance on the appropriate operation of the facility so it's contribution to meeting the organization's missions and goals can be clearly defined and measured so in summary I hope that this is provided you with some insight a taster into the range of standards that exist within our industry currently plus a few in development and how they can be categorized I'd like now to hand over to Brian to talk more about the management system standard thank you Brian thank you very much Adrian and uh very good afternoon to you all from me as you can see I'm involved with these two bodies within BSI that's my main interest uh over the years has been in developing the the standards obviously with others um it's often quite an involved task and plenty of contributions are always appreciated so as you know already this is going to be a dive into what I would describe as our Flagship standard so this is ISO 41001. you've noticed already that we do with these ISO standards always have the word facility management in the title and then after that the particular Focus area you know therefore that we use the word facility at the international level whereas in the UK of course we're more familiar with facilities facilities management so what what is this standard really all about well it's a management system standard it's one of approximately 50 within that there are two distinct types first of those is called a Taipei which is basically about specifying requirements so this standard as you can see there specifies requirement from management system we see this as a structured consistent process based arrangement for a business and if you like it's it's how you organize yourselves and it's doing that in a formalized way it is intended to be used by a facility management organization FM organization I think it's important at this point just to draw a distinction between that FM organization and what we've called a demand organization just for for practical reasons if you're if you're drafting a standard and understandably you're referring to an organization it certainly helps if you clear about which organization that you're referring to so if you like the the word demand organization which you can see here refers to an owner an operator an owner operator major tenant could even say client they're on the demand side and if you like in terms of supply of FM we have the FM organization well we look more closely at this 41001 management system standards standard we can say that it actually is very similar to the quality management system approach it's a more developed form because after all facilities management is a sector whereas quality is something very specific and can be applied across all sectors sectors but what is fundamental to this is that the FM system is there to be used by an FM organization to meet the needs of a demand organization so that's if you like the the broad approach to it now then what I'm going to do is I'm going to move on to a look at the reasons why you should go down the path of forty one thousand and one and not as you can see here ISO 9001 many people have asked me well we all know about 9001 so why do we have to bother with 41 0001 well as you've learned already and we can see at the top of this slide here 9001 is generic it's across all organizations all sectors for 41001 is specific to receptive specific to facility management and that if you think about it when it's defined in close quality it includes Environmental Management Energy Management occupational health and safety security business continuity management the list goes on now as you can see here each one of those topics has its own management system standard so I could actually say that if you have forty One Thousand and One you've got a number of management system standards in one you do because it's able because of what FM is to cover all of these individual areas now if you look at the definition of FM and there are quite a few around I think one word which is common to them all is integration or integrating and that's what FM does it integrates multiple functions and disciplines it is a discipline in its own right but it does bring together in an organized way and this is why you need to be looking at 41 0001 and not 9001. 9001 was the first and the structure of that has been used for all these other management system standards so whichever one you want to look at let's say forty five thousand one on occupational health and safety or we could say 14 0001 on the environment or Environmental Management to be more precise you'll see that the the structure is the same it's certainly not identical but what does set apart the individual standards are the supporting guidance and clearly here with 41 0001 the supporting guidance is specific to facility management so hopefully that gives you an idea of why we really shouldn't be going down the 9001 path we've got our own standard and it's Broad and deep the last point on this slide here uh just really makes that point again about 9001 being generic it applies across the whole organization and that can obviously include its own internal FM organization but it is limited to Quality however 41001 covers everything that the FM organization does only slide I've got as you can see key points already I've touched upon the important distinction that we need to make between the demand organization the FM organization most of our standards are at the iso level really targeted at the FM organization in serving one or more demand organizations a definition in fact of an FM organization that is in the wording on that left-hand side that the entity responsible for facility management and I should point out that facility Management in this context is the operational tactical and strategic levels and if we just move across to the second there the FM organization you can see that very point it's not enough to deliver multiple services and really succeed at being an FM organization there has to be management leadership there has to be a strong management function and what we'll be doing in the next 12 to 24 months at the iso level is looking at how we can support FM organizations on the supply side develop themselves so that they can think and act at all levels not just operational not just delivering Services which is clearly important but being able to contribute their expertise their capabilities to demand organizations now you've heard already that the underpinnings of a number of standards are the plan do check at model uh This Is Fundamental to the management system standards at which 41 000 is our prime example here so essentially you plan what you're going to do so you say what you're going to do you get on and do it then you check what has been done and where necessary you make changes to improve performance and in this context we do use that term continual Improvement so fundamentally what we're doing here is setting our course we're working towards certain objectives we're measuring what we're doing we're providing feedback and looking at how we can make it better on this last point on the right here the key key components they are just three of a number of components which we do actually include in our treatment within 41 0001. it's worth pointing out that FM strategy which we've touched on already with Adrian is supported by its own ISO standard so that's 41 014 FM strategy the development of FM strategy and that gives very clear guidance and recommendations on how you can put together a document which can be used to steer businesses towards successful outcomes where clearly there is a high Reliance not just all facility management but space in general and uh Improvement in in the business policy there is covered by 41018 coming down a level if you like as Adrian pointed out that policies really sitting between the strategy and the plans and as for the plans there we do have currently 41 012 but there are other operational standards if you like which have been covered in various ways pre previously just for Simplicity you could actually regard one and two their strategy and policy as inputs and three rather more about outputs try to keep it simple it needn't be complicated what we do have now is I hope you would agree a suite of interlocking standards which can support anyone that is involved in facility management now then let's move to the breakdown of the main sections what we call them Clauses I've deliberately kept this slide to just a few words because this is where we could get into great great detail and uh being truthful about it it could actually be a little bit tedious and we certainly don't want that so let's keep it a little bit more on a higher level so I've put in the the reference numbers there for the different Clauses in the standard the first one there for is really dealing with issues faced by the organization and how it might deal with them stakeholders are in there only ISO not really keen on that term we call them interested parties stakeholders it's also about the scope of the FM system moving across to five which is leadership there what we see is um if you like how we should approach commitment from Top Management in an organization and how that permeates down through policy FM policy FM objects is roles and responsibilities and authorities Planning number six there picks up risk something which we're all aware of a little bit of a tricky area at the best of times threats and opportunities and and other matters that help us to understand how we can organize what it is we're doing seven on support is looking at resources competences communication documented information we have to obviously make sure that we do provide the resources the people the supporting equipment materials but also we are generating data and information and we need to make a thorough job of that and as we move to the last two over there we've got performance evaluation which is really concerned with monitoring measuring analyzing evaluating audits in there but we needn't be too concerned about that because it's a very simple case of understanding if you are doing what you say you're doing if you're not we can fix it and also manage your review and lastly Improvement if we need to take corrective action how should we think about that so that concludes my look at the the main sections I'm just going to run down some of the uh the benefits of implementing 41001 um I suppose many of these if you like are easy to say but I think that experience so far in the use of Standards does support these claims so we will see a more efficient and effective Service delivery coming about health and safety should be our primary concern and here we can actually see the steps that need to be taken to ensure that individuals property are not harmed and so forth um remember what I said earlier about 41 0001 integrating different functions and amongst those of course we do have occupational health and safety High productivity better control over the management of facilities yes and greater certainty of outcomes less doubt about what is going to be achieved it is important in the world which gets more and more complicated as we go by to be clear about communication uh removing ambiguity making sure that we're all on the same page so to speak and in effect the bottom line of all of this is lower operating costs this clearly makes sense it matters now in the current state of affairs we are always mindful of a commitment to sustainable development I'm very pleased to be able to share this with you because out of the 17 sustainable development goals we can say quite truthfully that we are supporting eight of them I think that's credit where credit's due but it's also isn't it a realization that FM is about the built environment it's about managing it it's about providing for society so what next what shall we do next well we already had a comment about accreditation well accreditation is is what happens with bodies that certify individual organizations so if if you are an organization that is interested in becoming certified it's there for a case that you are interested in implementing the requirements of forty One Thousand and One and certainly it says a reasonable place to start I think it is the place to start is to review what you do now and it needs to be scary at all because most organizations are getting it right maybe there are some things which are not being done perhaps so consistently maybe you're missing a trick or two but the idea is to review your existing processes practices procedures and determine how you are aligned with the requirements of 41 000 and I can tell you they are not onerous well if you if you do that basically you're looking at the Gap that you need to close between what you do what the the standard requires you to do so a gap analysis is something that I think many of you will understand and be only too happy to undertake um and therefore you get on you make a plan for this and all the while you're looking at well how can we make it better um we expect that you would work in Conformity with the standard but you are able to go beyond that and you would understand also that um getting agreement internationally is is not going to um let's say um what's going to be at a particular level so it has to be something that satisfies a broad Church of interest to use an expression and so I would imagine in most cases that you would be adding to what we have as the if you like minimum requirements and within 41 0001 then what you can do is you can you can audit what you're doing you can review it and then you can move towards certification the certification means that you you have gone through a certain process and you're able to say that you're working in Conformity with the requirements of this set standard so there we are and I'm now going to hand back to Nick so that we can uh look at the questions and see if we can answer them Nick over to you well I think it's over to all of us thank you very much for that uh Brian really interesting presentation love that little bit about the sdgs uh how many were able to contribute to with a single standard um Adrian Brian if you could uh join me with some cameras um do I have there we go we're off there um Team we've had quite a few questions come through um I admittedly there was a big flurry at the end for yourself Brian um lucky you I'm going to start off with one that I think is perhaps for yourself Adrian um how the standards the the question is written how the standards will be applicable for different type of facilities I I think the question is asking how do you take um something that's not written is written agnostically and apply it to your actual facility it's Nick but I think that standards by their very nature cover the you know in this sector cover the sector so and and I think they're fairly Universal but depending on the facility and the the category of asset let's say that you have you're going to place emphasis in different areas so it's it's really the application of it in your particular circumstance but the rules still apply and the structures still apply it's just I think where you place the emphasis um and uh you know and that applies to to standards generally really but they are universally applicable thank you thank you very much um Brian I'm going to come to you we have uh one um one delegate who's given us three questions thank you very much Tommy um I actually know Tommy I won't give a last name but um I'll I'll go with uh uh a few of his um yeah yeah he's he's put a few in thank you Tommy um the um the first one um with the benefits of adopting ISO 41001 as a demand organization who predominantly uh sorry are there benefits or would there be benefits who predominantly operate an in-house FM with some externally sourced activities it's a slightly longer question but it is a demand organization but it's also an FM organization I think what you do thank you what you've just uh really described though is what is probably the the most common Arrangement where you have an organization a demand organization an internal FM organization and therefore um it would be the FM organization that would be implementing the standard for the benefit of its demand organization of course the demand organization itself would probably claim um externally that it it had its facilities management and certified in Conformity with the standard but it would be really the work of the FM organization the division the department the team there to actually work with it to implement it and to do all the working preparation for it so that is the most common situation I think what I could just add quickly here is that we were mindful of the very many up and coming service provider organizations that that see themselves as be able to offer something Beyond just the delivery of operational level services and therefore we need to recognize that external FM organizations uh do have a role to play in this and we recognize of course that service provision uh is subject to quite widespread uh Outsourcing now just sorry to to do this but um that first question that Adrian was addressing about the standards I think I nearly said it in my presentation but standards have to have to cover a lot of expectations and one of the principles is that when it comes to the requirements or the recommendations we suggest that you will think about scaling the approach to suit your own organization yeah you look at all of the requirements and you might think well well that's far in excess of what we are doing well fine but we've got to cover all manner of organizations certainly size but uh yes you can but there cannot be one size fits all uh but by the nature of what's written we try and include as much relevant information as possible and it is it is for people to pick and choose what's appropriate for their organization so yeah absolutely uh thank you very much Brian and Brian I'm going to come to you again um with a sort of follow-on uh Darren's jumped in and asked if a company is providing a soft FM service would it be better to perhaps look at 9001 as opposed to 41 0001 um because he's feeling uh that it's it's quite hard FM orientated the uh 41001. what are your thoughts well I wouldn't I wouldn't say 41 000 was was was hard and there's no place for uh soft services on the contrary um it doesn't follow that um you would have to deal how people delivering on the operational level to let's say qualify or be suitable for seeking certification under 41001 I think it's more likely that the the in the market that will be by number more service providers offering hard Services typically the operational services but there will be those um who are offering more the consultancy services if you like the softer services and this is the standard for for them too we we have had a few active discussions around this and uh what we want to be um is inclusive we we don't see our standards as being developed to favor a particular section let's say we would recognize if if some area is under represented or let's say some aspect of our work is not receiving sufficient attention and then try to deal with that um so it's it's it's for everyone and if you read the requirements they they you'll be able to see that well yes we do those things we do those and if you're supplying Opera the operational level you'll see that if you're supplying these softer Services you'll see that too so it is terrarium please please don't uh abandon the idea of um 41001 and go for for ISO nine thousand or nothing wrong with ISO nine times but we've got we've got our role now yeah absolutely uh so so we are not discriminating between hard and soft it absolutely is a inclusive standard uh thank you um we are getting close to our allotted time so we've got probably time for just two more questions uh for those that aren't uh being covered please uh Adrian and I had um contact details up on the uh on the slides please do feel free to reach out um I'm going to take one uh just because it was really relevant to uh what I was going through and it's just uh hi how can I get involved in supporting the development of future Publications and that's just to to reiterate uh please reach out and contact us um we don't have a name on this one so I can't get in contact with you uh but please do reach out and um and get in contact with us and we'd be happy to chat through in a lot more detail what we were lightly touching on before um and I'm going to have possibly this last one for yourself um Adrian okay do you have a standard checklist for FM I I can read that in two different ways um one do you have a checklist of standards for FM or do you have a a standard a regular checklist for FM activities um yeah well I'll tackle both those hopefully um well what we've gone through this morning or this afternoon I should say um and in terms of the infographic um splitting it across the different stages of the property life cycle um is probably the uh you know is is a fairly comprehensive list at this moment in time of the standards that exist in this space um there and and clearly there's a there's a few more to come uh from from the last slide that I put up there so in terms of that list but obviously there's the BSI website to reference as well as well as the infographic on that in terms of checklists themselves for FM they then there are a number of the standards that and hopefully I I highlighted some of those where there's some detailed information within them and some very good and useful guidance and checklists um whether that's transition management whether whether that's the the maintenance management standard Etc there's some really good stuff in there and depending on which states you are at of the property life cycle so there's there's at a micro level there are some checklists in there and then at the macro level obviously you've got the infographic and bsi's website hey Jen thank you very much for a really good answer to that one and you've managed to time it exactly right um we are bang on time so All That Remains is for me to thank Adrian thank Brian for your uh very nice succinct presentations and of course to thank everyone who's attended we really appreciate uh being able to spread the work that we're doing and hope that's been of interest to you thank you very much enjoy the rest of your days I hope to see you on the next one good day