hey Mike here I just wanted to let you know that you can listen to Dark poutine early and adree on Amazon music included with prime you're about to listen to a historical episode of dark poutine after episode 149 you will find Scott is no longer with the show in an effort to maintain continuity and offer listeners as many episodes as possible we are leaving the episodes in which he co-hosted intact thank you hi this is Christy Lee from the Canadian True Crime podcast you're listening to Dark poutine a podcast about Canada's creepier side with hosts Mike Brown and Scott hamway thanks to Christy Lee from the Canadian True Crime podcast for that intro if you haven't checked it out it's one that inspired me to get going in the first place do it it's it's great I'm Mike Brown Creator and host of dark poutine with me as usual is my good friend co-host sound engineer and human stick figure Scott hemway say hello Scott I'm a stick figure with a pot belly it's true actually it's a it's remarkable you're skinny fat it's not easy to do man no I'm I'm just fat fat yeah no I got the skinny fat skinny fat yeah um yeah uh shout outs to uh a couple of people who have sent us emails Yasmin and Megan both sent very compliment emails thank you very much ladies let's get to it dark poutin is not for the faint of heart or squeamish as our content contains mature themes harsh language and graphic descriptions of violent crimes listener discretion and often the sense of humor is strongly advised your hosts are in no way experts on any of the topics we present nor are we professional journalists we just want to entertain you with the stories we tell put on your toque grab yourself a double double and an IMO bar it's time time to scarf down some dark [Music] poutine this episode of dark poutine is about Canada's youngest serial killer what we'll be talking about here is disturbing not only to hear but to research right about and say as well we're talking about the murder of children if that's something that disturbs you and it should if it disturbs you too much that you have to foro listening to this episode we understand the last episode the murder of 12-year-old Carissa budro from my hometown in Nova Scotia was particularly hard for us to get through uh we always want to Main maintain a high level of respect for the feelings of the victims and their families our podcast in no way aims to glorify the murderers themselves or sensationalize their crimes we merely want to bring dark stories to light that may be forgotten otherwise these sad Tales cry out to be told if only to act as a warning to watch yourselves and your loved ones and as a reminder that there is true evil in the world extremely interesting to me is what makes a murderer is it nature or nurture or a bit of both perhaps through looking at the lives of these people we can find out what drives them to kill does that Darkness lurk in all of us somewhere or is something specific in the DNA or upbringing of these people in particular that triggers these horrifying actions that said I'm seriously considering a hard stop on episodes of child murder I chatted with chrisy who did our intro for this episode and she decided to stop doing episodes dealing with the murders of children too I can see why not to say that a murder of an adult is any less heinous or less devastating to a family but there is something about the death of a child at the hands of another that is just repulsive perhaps it's their real innocence talking about these things is harder than you might think I've even considered stopping dark poutine altogether and going on to lighter Fair like movies stupid news farts and poop I'll probably do that anyway as a second project in a palet cleanser you're probably doing the last two right now farting and pooping yeah I probably am but there are some cases I feel compelled to cover like Clifford Olsen the Beast of BC he stalked and took children from this very neighborhood I'm thinking we'll leave that alone for now and uh cover it on a future episode like far in the future yes let's get through this one first you've been warned you can turn back now if you need to from the fall of 1956 until early 1957 in Toronto Ontario three children ranging in age from 9 years to as young as 4 years old were brutally murdered the 17-year-old killer was a and sexual sist who we're talking about here was ironically named Peter Woodcock I kid you not yeah I I want a joke but yet no just when when you find out about this guy's crimes it yeah you can't it it removes uh much Capac City for humor yep Woodcock later changed his name to David Michael Krueger we assumed to escape the stigma of his real name out of respect for his victims we'll refer to him by the name he was best known uh we're not helping him to hide his responsibility for his crimes if that makes sense to you no it makes total sense to me he uh he can't he can't try to escape it we'll do what we can to make sure that uh yeah he's no one there's accountability for what he's done yeah as well as the three murders in the 1950s Woodcock would later commit a fourth murder on July 13th 1991 during his first unsupervised day pass in 34 years with the help of another former inmate he murdered a man named Dennis Kerr as far as I can find the fact that there were 34 years between the original child murders and the killing of Dennis Kerr is the longest enforced cooldown between murders of any other serial killer cuz I know like uh Edmund keer because he was in jail there was a big period of time where he didn't kill but it was not 34 years yeah yeah well once you typically once you're a labeled a serial killer you're not getting out yeah but we're talking about the 50s here so I don't I don't even know if that label existed I can't remember no I don't think it did let's find out what happened Peter Woodcock was born out of wedlock on March 5th 1939 in a hospital in Peterboro Ontario a city to the northeast of Toronto there are some conflicting reports that his mother Wanita Woodcock was supposed to have been either a 17-year-old factory worker or a 19-year-old prostitute I don't think it really matters no it is said that his father was a 19-year-old soldier from the area closely monitored by the Children's Aid Society of the day Peter stayed with his mother for a month and she breastfed him he cried all the time and was a quote feeding problem unable to handle him oneita finally gave Peter up he was bounced from foster home to foster home to prevent him from bonding with any family in particular until a permanent Foster family could be found for the first year of Peter woodcock's life he cried all day and rarely ate making him underweight he was terrified of people screaming if they came near him he sounds like a great kid his speech nearly 2 years old was described as bizarre and incoherent whining Not only was Peter Woodcock unadoptable he did not always receive premium Child Care at the hands of his foster families some of them were in it just for the Money Paid to them by the Children's Aid Society they could have cared less about this weird mealing brat who is nothing more than the meal ticket he was even hospitalized as an infant after an alleged beating at the hands of one of his caregivers Jesus yep talk about like like no chance right from the beginning yeah you you've mentioned the whole you born or created yeah or is it a combination you can kind of see both of those manifesting here yep uh by this time Peter may have developed a mental condition known as reactive attachment disorder or rad it's a rare condition of emotional dysfunction in which a baby or child cannot form a bond with its parents or caregivers due to early neglect or mistreatment this would explained a lot about his uh behavioral issues but as Psychiatry was in its infancy this diagnosis would have been highly unlikely I don't think it even existed yeah Peter Woodcock was taken in permanently three years old by Frank and Susan Maynard the Maynards were Perpetual foster parents but Peter was more than just another child they cared for perhaps they felt sorry for the boy and decided to give him a chance they yet to have a stable and loving family they didn't legally adopt him however perhaps they wanted to keep escape hatch open or something and the kid was kind of weird yeah U but you know it seemed like they were trying the upper middle class family from Toronto had a natural son of their own George who was 10 years older than Peter and they never really connected Peter was initially still screaming at strangers and looked sickly but eventually he started to gain weight presumably from some consistent home cooking the kids in the neighborhood thought Peter was weird and didn't want to play with him his behavioral issues persisted when Peter was five the Mayers sought medical help for his strange Behavior which included wandering off on his own the Maynards had gone to go searching for him multiple times uh one time he was found cowering under some shrubs he said he was hiding from the other kids and wanted to stay out where God could protect him make sense I guess no no it doesn't no it does not Peter was acting strangely at home too Susan came home one day to find her pet Canary was not only dead but Peter was having his own little funeral for it nothing creepy there oh the bird was on the Family's piano surrounded by candles he claimed that the dog had murdered the canary which guess it ate his homework and murdered the canary those damn dogs right mhm and drove the car family car off a cliff the dog did yeah or not that was Tunes the driving cat I get these confused you must anyway Peter smashed things to face the dining room table carving weird symbols into it and cut up his socks Woodcock later claimed that his mother beat him and this is what led to his problems this has not been substantiated by his older brother who said that stuff didn't happen in the home able to get along in public school uh Peter was sent to a private school with a smaller population of kids but he still managed to cause grief uh being the weird kid in the neighborhood Peter of Woodcock spent most of his time alone and he filled a lot of his days creating fantasy worlds in his mind where he was the king and could do whatever he pleased and whenever he wanted obviously he didn't fit in uh Susan Maynard thought legally adopting Peter might help but she was warned by numerous people people that this was not a good idea they tried numerous schools specifically set up to help kids like Peter as it was the 50s a lot of progress had yet to be made in the Mental Health Professions but Peter was closely watched by the Children's Aid Society as he was still considered a foster child and award of them uh from Mark B's book by reason of Insanity while being assessed for placement at a school for Disturbed children at 11 Woodcock was described as slight in build neat in appearance eyes bright and wide open worried facial expression sometimes screaming screwing up of eyes walks brisk and erect moves rapidly darts ahead interested and questioning constantly in conversation further on something a little more ominous when a Children's Aid worker who was helping with the assessment walked with him through the crowded Canadian national exhibition grounds on an August day Peter turned to him and said I wish a bomb would fall on the exhibition and kill all the children jeez yeah I we've talked about it a bit I think you know he sort of reminds me like of Terry driver just a mixed up kid right from the beginning and what are your thoughts on that yeah I mean there's definitely uh some parallels there but I I think uh woodcock's uh path is quite a lot more horrific than Terry's not to diminish Terry's troubled youth but it's there's definitely some um yeah some linkage between the two in regards to their upbringing yeah interesting right yeah uh he was 11 at the time remember so uh when they put him into the school um he was there for a few years he uh he claimed his first sexual consent ual sex with a 12-year-old girl at his boarding school happened when he was 13 uh but they were caught by the staff before anything could really happen and they got bald out for it he claimed that he was beginning to develop what he called a hypers sex drive at one point he was caught fondling an 11-year-old girl and this prevented him from being released when others typically were at 14 his weird Behavior improved slightly at the Sunnyside School for Disturbed children in Kingston but many believe that once he was out of the structured environment and back home with the Maynards in September of 1954 he would backslide so going back home at 15 and I guess they were right y that uh things wouldn't go well probably the only thing Peter Woodcock took away from his school experience in Kingston was an ability to charm and manipulate adults the we're seeing some traits of the psychopath here it's kind of like the prison makes you a better Criminal yeah Theory interesting on his return home neighborhood kids recognized him at school and began picking on him just where they'd left off he changed schools again to BL Dale College school so he could be more Anonymous he was there from grades 9 to 11 but they still lived in the same place and the local kids used to chase him on his new pride and joy a red and white three-speed bike he rode his bike everywhere it helped him Escape both physically and mentally in 1956 uh so he's 17 by now he even got a job at caloma a gotha castle in Toronto that serves as a museum and art gallery and he parked cars there I wonder if if they advertise that anywhere on their former serial killer no I don't I don't like I don't I don't think that's the best marketing plan no so I don't think that the but hey who knows yeah you never know yeah Peter's fantasies were getting darker although he hid it well he was obsessed with human anatomy rape and murder he started conning younger children onto the handlebars of his bike for rides here we go he would take them to some secluded spot and have them strip off their clothes and play sex games with them he didn't have any sexual intercourse with these kids as he couldn't perform normally I guess you know he would get release later on when he was fantasizing about what had gone on with these kids J he wanted to go further he was escalating he wanted to hurt someone in the spring of 1956 Woodcock made friends with a depressed 10-year-old according to him the girl wanted to die and he was willing to help her achieve that end he planned to kill her cut her up and see what she looked like on the inside the pair planned the girl's death over two weeks when they met up nothing seemed to go right although the girl was willing to die wood coock couldn't follow through with the act the girl went home and so did Peter Woodcock it was late enough that uh her parents had become very worried and called the police who questioned their daughter and uh they ended up coming over to Peter woodcock's house to have a conversation with him uh when confronted by his foster parents and the police he threatened to hurt himself so the family wouldn't be embarrassed after the police visit so he said you know well I'd rather kill myself if you want me to I'll kill myself yeah classic manipulation yep after Peter's mother left the room frustrated Mr Maynard said don't pick up any more children so I guess his dad knew yeah you know I and I'm understandably completely skeptical of his Claim about the girl wanted to die at the age of 10 I think when he says she was willing but he uh couldn't go through with it I think it's more he had planned to kill her and he couldn't go through with it yeah who knows I guess you know unless we hear from her we don't know for sure I I could there maybe have been talk about that and stuff but yeah but I I don't for I I can't imagine a 10-year-old having a 10-year-old I can't imagine a 10-year-old um having uh any grasper concept of what that even is so I think he wanted to kill her and at that point in his life was unable to backed out yeah [ __ ] him yeah over the intervening months Woodcock attacks uh on children around Toronto became increasingly violent he choked some unconscious stripping them and leaving them naked after fondling them he loved his new bike this one red and green purchased with Casher and from his caloma gig he was traveling further outside the neighborhood for his nefarious Adventures so he could maintain more anonymity he would also avoid the areas he'd already committed assaults so he was getting Savvy in his crimes too yep he didn't want to run into anybody who may be able to identify him the rage inside Peter Woodcock was building he hated everyone and was strangely obsessed with books about human anatomy and he would look at them while thinking about the assaults he was committing boof on September 16th 1956 Peter Woodcock crossed the line from sexual assault to murder Wayne Mallette a seven-year-old from Eastern Ontario was in Toronto to visit his grandmother Wayne's three older brothers took off to head downtown while Wayne played in his grandmother's front yard his parents were in the house visiting as it began to get dark out Irene Wayne mallette's mother headed to the door to call her son inside he was nowhere to be found his father Jack thought Wayne was with his older brothers but when they returned saying that they'd left Wayne in the yard alone Panic set in the police were called Wayne had wandered off to play near the train tracks in the neighborhood the tracks were obscured from the view of the houses by a buffer of trees and a chainlink fence with a path between the fence and tracks this is where Wayne Mallette met Peter Woodcock and his own fate in markor book by reason of insanity Peter Woodcock is quoted as saying I took him in there and I told him we could watch the trains together then I tried to get him to play sex games he got scared my alien self took over I shoved his face down into the dirt and he stopped breathing I knew he was gone when I heard the death rattle in fact the murder of Wayne Mallette had been far more Savage upon examination Wayne was found to have had bits of garbage stuffed into his mouth when his clothes were removed it was Apparent from the bruising on his body that he'd been repeatedly kicked there were also bite marks evident on his body his killer had redressed him after the attack and they made forensic cast of the bite marks other evidence included pennies having been scattered near the body and someone had defecated nearby yuck jeez Wayne was identified and the police set to work looking for the killer they investigated a few false leads think it was a perverted that' been caught flashing people in the area before one lead that cops dismissed at first was that the Mallette boy had been seen in the company of a skinny youth with a snazzy bicycle there were reports of a boy leaving the area on a bicycle pedaling fast cops thought he may have seen something that scared him and really wanted to chat with him I guess they thought that it was an adult crime and they didn't want to think that a kid could have done this I think it even now it's hard to uh accept when kids kill it's very very difficult to to accept that and so I can imagine back then it it probably is not even something that enters their mind there's a new podcast coming out just about that specific thing it's not about killer kids um I've been back and forth with them a couple of times over Twitter so you might want to if you if you want to check them out yeah yeah it's interesting uh police later learned that uh a security guard in the area had a weird conversation with a youth who later turned out to be Woodcock The Exchange went like this the boy asked the security guard do they ever find any bodies in these bushes what would you do if you found a body in the bushes I would call police the guard answered aren't you a policeman Woodcock asked no the guard answered the guard asked Woodcock if he had seen a body no but I saw a boy run out of the bushes he looked just like me wow yeah well because it was you Woodcock got on his bicycle and took off now the cops had a very good description of someone they really wanted to talk to and even published a drawing that very much resembled Woodcock with his bike in local papers and posted it in the public schools but interestingly not the private one that Woodcock went to it was not Peter Woodcock who was picked up for the murder of Wayne mleta initially another boy 14-year-old Ronald Moet had skipped school and was hiding out in a crawl space under the family's porch for 4 days fearing repercussions for truancy when he was found police thought they had their man Even though moet's parents gave an alibi for him at the time of the Mallette murder they wanted someone to pay for the murder of a seven-year-old and this guy seemed to fit the bill Mo quickly was wrongfully convicted of manslaughter in Youth Court and sent to the a Reformatory in GTH based on weak circumstantial evidence gez a poor guy yeah right like it all he was doing was skipping school to make a terrible terrible disgusting situation worse to have some poor innocent fella pulled into it yep 14 years old yeah yeah absolutely don't skip school yeah Peter Woodcock had enjoyed his previous crime so much and having gotten gotten away with it he wanted to do it again he began planning the next event this time in the lower uh class Toronto neighborhood of cabbag town I'm not sure if it's lower class now but it was then Peter Woodcock had scouted out an area for his next kill he chose a secluded bit of Shoreline for the deed Peter Woodcock met 9-year-old Gary Morris at a local market and convinced him to come for a ride on his bike same memo Woodcock took the boy to his predetermined killing ground there he strangled Morris into unconsciousness stripped him and examined the naked child then he attacked the boy brutally beating him and viciously biting his neck Gary Morris died of a ruptured liver due to the Savage beating Jesus afterward even Peter Woodcock was horrified by the mistakes he had made referring to his murders thinking my God has got to stop Gary Morris had run away before so when he didn't come home his family thought he'd finally gone to join the circus like he talked about doing I thought that was like run away and join the circus I thought that was like a joke uh and I I struggled to think like guess your 9-year-old go I get that it's the 1950s there was no Facebook you know there was no social media the techn but like to just like I can't imagine your nine-year-old go is missing like he always wanted to be a Carney yeah like it I'm sure there's more to it I'm sure the family was quite panicked and everything but just yeah eh he always wanted to be a Carney yeah again people had seen a youth on a bike ride off with Gary Morris the police and two districts didn't trust each other at the time and connections were not made about the Gary Morris murder and this previous one there were no good suspects or other leads on New Year's Day 1957 an unnamed little girl was molested and strangled near an underpass but she did not die she gave Toronto police a now familiar description of a youth who had a fancy bicycle and had attacked her in the same way so you know on January 19th 1957 Peter Woodcock would strike again this time his victim would not get away on dan4th Avenue 4-year-old Carol voice was playing with an older boy outside an apartment where the children's parent parents were socializing a boy on a bike approached and after some discussion about who wanted to come for a bike ride the boy opted to take Carol voice with him Woodcock would later indicate he chose her because she was smaller and would be easier to control like so crazy yeah Witnesses later reported seeing Carol voice riding along On the handlebars of the of a skinny youth's bicycle after recing Carol was missing her parents frantically searched police were called and a large search party was put together to search for the four-year-old girl just after 11:00 p.m. police found Carol voice dead and mutilated near the bler viaduct her killer had choked her unconscious stripped and brutalized her as he had done to so many before after molesting her he killed her by jamming a stick into her body through her pelvis I said pelvis because I didn't want to say I think we get it and um yeah he had slipped when scrambling back up the bank trying to leave the scene of the crime and angrily returned to give the dead girl one last hard Kick In The Head a few people saw Woodcock leaving the Ravine he even stopped and told one man if there's a murder down there they're going to try and blame it on me I can't understand like I'm trying to think about his logic there put yourself in the shoes of this lunatic or in the mind of this lunatic and like is that supposed to be a cover no I don't think so I think this is the point where he's like holy crap I can't control myself so it's a cry yeah yeah okay yep cuz doing something stupid like that is like walk up to somebody and say if there's a murder down there they'll try to blame it on me like hey what like walking up to a c I didn't rob that bank yeah with the big bag of money and blue paint all over your face if it turns out it was it was robbed don't look at me yeah oh yep even a fellow student who went to Woodcock School saw him in the area The Manhunt was on finally cops had made some connections between the murders the last two at least Ronald Mo was already in in jail doing time for the Wayne Mallette murder a $5,000 reward was posted 2 days after the murder of Carol voice police investigators finally put two and two together they recalled the incident with the little girl in March 1956 who had been molested in the Ravine and talked to Peter Woodcock about about killing her and we had that discussion earlier so Peter Woodcock was arrested on his at school that Monday morning and this was the last time Woodcock would see freedom for a very long time Peter Woodcock cracked and started talking right away when he was assured his mother would not be able to get at him in jail he was more afraid of her than he was going to prison here's his statement to Police from January 21st 1957 the first time this happened was in March you already know the details about that about the girl and from then until now I have actually attacked many children even though I love children as a rule I have felt sexually inclined to I won't go into the number of cases but will say that there must have been about 11 or 12 of them before I met the girl that is for this case I took her for a ride to the viaduct as you fellows know about it now where I subdued her and I don't know what I did but she was dead before I realized what I had done and that was about it do you want to know from the last time I left her and so on you want to know how I subdued her I suppose well first of all I choked her this is very gruesome I know then I stuck fingers in her eyes stuck my fingers in her eyes I don't know why I did that isn't it awful yes yeah yeah it is it is very awful young man and then I tried to clamor up the bank I was frightened by what I did and as I clamored up the little Gully there I slipped and my feet hit her head so he's obviously not owning up to no no no he's the con the it's odd how you know he's willing to admit to murder but not kicking the head well I mean it's like his little thing right yeah yeah I don't know then I left her circled back on the other side and you saw my tracks took one last look and left and that's all but it happened so suddenly I don't know I can tell you right now now that I don't want a trial before a jury the reason why my parents were not aware of my sickness is because I never told them I was too ashamed do you blame me I feel relieved now that I have told you the truth because I was worried whatever happens I don't want to go home tonight I don't want to face my parents signed Peter Maynard yeah don't worry you won't be going home to see your parents no I don't think there's any danger of that happening he admit to lots more later on including the murders of Gary Morris and Wayne Mallette he admitted to the mlet murder as he was angry that someone else had been given credit for something he had done interestingly Moet was not LED out of jail right away the cops and other people in the system had a bit of egg on their faces to say the least Cav convicted an innocent young man I almost burped there sorry all right Peter Woodcock the 5'5 and A2 inch killer of three Toronto area children was tried and found not guilty by reason of insanity he was sent to a maximum security psychiatric Institution for treatment he would spend 34 years in Mental Hospitals no I think we should I mean we've stated the time frame multiple times but it was the 1950s their interpretation or their view of insanity is far different than how it's view now I mean I think back then if you had the vapors they'd probably call you insane and so uh it it's they uh he's like Jeffrey dmer in a way like I don't I don't think that he would be found not guilty by reason of insanity today no I don't think so no no but again 1950s the understanding of the human mind was just in its infancy really yeah I mean you know the Freud and Yung had done their thing already but yeah we understand a little more now yeah and and we still don't fully understand things but we know a lot more especially your mind oh dear God I don't even understand it yeah no well I I never will anyway uh it said that Peter Woodcock enjoyed the attention paid to him by older homosexual patients in the in the hospital I wonder what kind of attention that was handshakes creepy handshakes Peter was depressed and hurt himself on a few occasions he was heavily medicated on the drugs of the day and psychiatrists went to work trying to treat the sick young man he was even treated with LSD in the 1960s they wanted to reveal his quirks and give some insight into the in inner workings of his Twisted mind Peter liked LSD and its attendant tripped to another world by way of hallucinations of course uh not sure what actual benefit had on his treatment I don't think he cared either no he's dripping yeah uh we'll be covering LSD treatments as a psychiatric tool in Canada during the 1960s on the next episode yeah I can't wait for that yeah so here in uh the lower manland was a a hospital called the Hollywood sanitarium and uh and they called it the Hollywood sanitarium because movie stars would come here to dry out from you know exhaustion AKA alcoholism and addiction and they were treated there with LSD so uh we won't reveal too much here but uh I have a lot of research that I've done and and have talked to people who were actually there so oh wow yeah yeah I can't wait it's fascinating so although depressed Peter did show signs of improvement over the years he became a model inmate SLP patient he did not participate however in the treatment geared towards sexual predators like himself and continued to have deviant sexual thoughts he convinced other patients to perform oral sex on him in return for cigarettes so that's a model patient jeez I guess maybe they didn't know I guess cuz it's a transaction no they got C no cigarettes yeah he was adamant uh that his name change uh to Michael David Krueger was not to pay homage to Freddy Krueger the pedophile murderer in The Nightmare on Elm Street films I'm sure that was just a uh added benefit for him he did start the name change process uh before the first film was released about two years before but he did tell AR uh author Mark Bor some people ask me if I'm related to Freddy Krueger I say he's my cousin he's not really the black sheep of the family his three sons are mean vicious and cruel jeez yeah yikes yikes Woodcock now Krueger started to get supervised day passes during one he even went to see Silence of the Lambs with workers from the institution so that you take a serial killer to see a movie about serial killers there's just no reasoning behind that like you that's poor uh Medical Care oh yeah I I think I think there were some oversights in in maybe they thought it has Lambs in the title maybe they thought it was like a cartoon they thought it was like Sean sea Shan the sheep or whatever that is you know it's like a it was a it was a silent film about sheep yeah or Lambs Silence of the Lambs yeah yeah well you'll never guess who he sided with in that situation oh could it could it be Hannibal Lector it was oh W it was go figure Krueger who we we will now refer to him as because his name has been changed at this point um Krueger felt badly for how Hannibal lecor was treated in the film he projecting much I guess uh anyway he struck up a relationship with a fellow inmate named Bruce Hamill Krueger enjoyed his companionships uh and sex with the other man Bruce Hamill was released but he and Krueger kept in touch Krueger's caretakers felt he had progressed with his treatment to the point where he was considered safe in the community at least briefly and he was offered a weekend pass on July 31st 1991 on his very first day pass in 34 years he met up with Bruce Hamill and another man Dennis Kerr together in the first hour of Woodcock Krueger's very first day pass in 34 years Krueger and Hamill murdered 27-year-old Dennis Kerr with a hatchet and knife that Hamill had purchased geez drenched in the man's blood the pair St stripped naked and sodomized Kerr's corpse Krueger considered murdering Hamill as well but thought better of it leaving him in a stuper at the scene so Krueger put his bloody clothes back on left the scene and walked into the nearest police station to turn himself in I'm just I'm sitting here with my jaw dropped right they had been planning this attack even uh before Hamill was released I would imagine so yeah wow so Krueger was sent back to the hospital he was so familiar with where he died of natural causes on March 5th 2010 his 71st birthday and he was also somebody who remember uh people like Clifford olon getting CPP payments in in jail y well he was also somebody who was receiving uh these payments and there was a lot of stink around that yeah um a CPP for uh for our American friends is the Canadian pension plan where if you are breathing in and out I think it's at age 65 you're eligible to receive uh payments if you've worked at some point in your life I guess Krueger was because he had worked yeah I don't know it's one of those things where emotionally we're outraged I'm outraged but then when you go by when you take the emotion out of it and and what is actually law what is written it may make sense but it can be very very difficult to separate that emotion because I want to say that's wrong you shouldn't get a dime screw him well I believe and I haven't researched this 100% but if I remember correctly the Canadian govern government has plugged that whole good good good to hear because people like Clifford Olsen were also getting a cpv payment I I just think that the it I think it would be wrong for people to be thinking at that time what you know that they were just like no cool let's give him some CPP I'm sure it wasn't like oh murderer who cares let's give him CPP it would have been policy but uh I'm really glad to hear and I hope to hell they did change that because no yeah I think I think murder when you kill somebody oh I think jail or many other crimes uh I think that should take away your eligibility for if you're going to be in jail for like because you're a Serial child molester or something crazy like that yeah I I don't think we're be I I don't I don't think that guy should get money I don't think we're being unreasonable by saying that no well I don't know if you think we're unreasonable you can tweet us and uh and let us know that or leave us a comment on Facebook yeah or I don't think there'll be very many something tells me that nobody will uh so much of the research from this episode came from the books by reason of insanity the Michael David Michael Krueger story by Mark Bor and Mark Bor put a lot of um research uh into this book even going to interview uh David Michael Krueger uh in the hospital wow yeah so he really had uh an Insider's look at this he also wrote another book called Peter Woodcock uh Peter Woodcock Canada's youngest serial killer and another book that I read was uh serial killers the method and Madness of monsters by Peter vonsky that those are all really interesting books so you know a fascinating thing would be to actually interview some these authors and whatnot because it there would be not so much about the have them talk about the crime but it would be fascinated to know like what they go through emotionally yeah researching and digging into all these things and because it's got to be tax I'm sure you experience it doing your research I do yeah I definitely do yeah and I'm I'm not doing I'm I'm writing 5,000 words on it I'm not writing a book yeah exactly yeah so I did find Peter woodcock's early life interesting because I'm adopted as well and I didn't get adopted until I was three months old I wasn't three years old so I did have a lot of problems connecting with my adopted parents and and people ear on and I even displayed some of the traits of a milder case of rad reactive attachment disorder I didn't want to participate in activities with other kids and be I was really untrusting of adults like I was the last person to learn to swim ride a bike all those kind of I was terrified you know my dad would offer do you want to drive the boat all the other kids wanted to do it but I didn't yeah it was interesting yeah like looking back now I I kind of understand what was going on for sure and I've had some counseling obviously since um I I had a lot of unexplainable angry outbursts too when I was a kid I guess you know that whole Primal wound thing being taken away from your your mummy very early on yeah and and those are fairly common in uh depressive and anxious individuals outbursts and so it was you came by it honestly uh for sure I mean my parents were really loving people absolutely amazing yeah everything I know about them is uh quite a fun bunch of people yeah even mom mentioned uh when I was home the summer how uh when she first when they first got me I was adopted on Halloween October 31st uh but when they first got me I cried a lot and she didn't know what to do apparently I cried way more than other kids like she just was at a loss so I think you still do I don't cry then I feel like crying right now oh you're welcome anyway they took me to doctors to figure out what was wrong and and uh I mean I've suffered from abouts of depression my whole life pretty much you know you and me both even recently but I got help I I think that's where um you know Peter yeah Woodcock and I tend to go in in a very different direction I think you guys diverge on a lot of different things well yes I am not a murderer no at all I I don't even like to step on an ant this is true yeah but uh yeah yeah holy crap Yeah man so this episode uh is the last on on child murder we're going to do in a while I I don't want to do anymore on this in this topic for a while um I agree yeah so uh Yasmin who who emailed us mentioned we should cover the Laura Babcock uh murder and she was she was the girlfriend of uh delyan Mard who who also murdered Tim bosma in Ontario and that case has recently been covered so it might be a while till we get to it because I want to leave leave some time and there's also uh some more stuff yet to happen with Delan Mard apparently he's been charged with his father's murder now oh really oh yeah like or that he's being if he hasn't been charged he's being investigated very thoroughly for it because they think um not only did he kill Tim bosma and um his ex-girlfriend uh he also may have murdered his father for money wow yeah I I think we should wait for a bit more to unfold on that then but what a what a great suggestion thanks thanks so much for for yeah bring that one so so yes we will cover it but I'd like to I like to I'd like to see the whole story yeah yeah have the whole picture yeah for sure um once again there's there's been so many uh awesome other podcast hosts who are so kind and and they keep you know encouraging us to to carry on and things like that and um I mean we have over 2500 downloads of our podcast already and we've only been at it for three months so yeah so that's kind of cool it really is it's it's touching yeah and so anybody who's who has taken the time to listen to us we really really appreciate it it's uh it's it's awesome that anybody is paying attention at all s send us your addresses and Mike will come hug each and every one of you I might i' would like to but I don't want to you know I don't want to be talking about myself as one of these creeps let's pretend like I didn't suggest that do not send us your home addresses please well you might want to eventually cuz I'm going to do stickers and and and I'm looking at t-shirts and stuff like that so we might be doing that at some point too I'll give you my address now I know where you live oh jeez how scary was that that you I'm scared right yeah okay well these heavy topics though yeah geez so so next time it won't be so heavy LSD isn't as heavy you know it'll y it'll be related to CIA and and all that kind of stuff but it's still some dark poutine it's it's Canadian for sure absolutely I mean I I think it's important to try to uh we can't consistently do these stories that are so personally difficult to research and go over I mean it's uh I I love humor I love levity I love to to have a little I think it's it's I never joke in in the podcasts or or try to be funny for the sake of belittling anybody who's been traumatized I just think it's important you edit that out I just think I just think it's important you have to balance such Terror and such trauma hopefully with some levity something to bring you out of that so I find it important to inject levity and uh but with cases like today and the last podcast we did like it it's it's hard to even uh feeling it uh motivated to to laugh or bring a joke into it and so it we need to be able to to balance out emotion I didn't get into it just for all the all the like the dark dark dark dark dark stuff I mean I like the dark history too uh Bigfoot is something I want to tackle there's there's some interesting developments in in Canada around the Bigfoot story so but but it's not Uber dark bootin no but it's still pretty dark it it's well point mon in in the woods yeah well okay I see I was just talking about today this podcast and the other ones but no without a doubt uh uh uh Bigfoot's very dark probably doesn't have very much of a sense of humor well you never know probably quite it's probably quite emo listens to listens to what the Smiths oh listen to a lot of the Smiths in B house girl girlfriend in a coma it reads a lot of Edgar Allen Poe The Raven never more yeah pretty much the origins goth is Bigfoot I've made that conclusion okay yeah anyways yep if you would like to learn more about this and other episodes of dark poutine or check out the inside of Scott's head you probably don't want to do that anyway but uh head on over to our website www.d darkin and if you have story ideas like the one we mentioned earlier and questions comments or just want to say hi you can reach us via email at dark poutin podcast gmail.com please follow us on Facebook Twitter and Instagram tell your friends about us and I think that is a big part of why we've had any success at all is because people are actually doing that so thank you thank you thank you sub subscribe to us on your favorite podcast directory uh like iTunes where you can leave a five star review or a comment um some people say they don't like iTunes and they don't use it but we're on podbean so dark poutin dopod podbean.com uh that's where you can find our podcast and you could subscribe to us there uh I don't think you have to even really sign up for anything but I use personally I used an app called pocketcasts which I find is much better than uh the iTunes app which has been unsubscribing people from stuff lately oh really oh it's ridiculous anyway leave us leave us a review drop us a line every little bit helps and helps us to keep this thing moving forward and and I'll I'll even promote myself here oh [ __ ] we've talked I've talked about photography a few times in here yep uh if you're curious about my photography yeah www. sdh piix is in Scott Douglas hinoi pix ics.com oh my goodness yeah Scott's cameras are broken they don't take pictures in color oh I'm sorry you don't understand art black and white who's art uh you stumped me I don't know it's not I don't know I don't know apparently I don't know him either but go check out my photography yeah do it Scott Scott likes to uh he's he's he's being a little humble he likes to take pictures of bands and things like that he and I have both done that but he he's stuck with it a lot longer than I have and uh he's taken some pictures of some some pretty cool bands so if you if you want to that's a good place to go check things out and plus you know pictures of other people in black and white I think there may be three color photos on my site but you know anyways go find out yourself tell me tell me how many color you find there you go uh yeah in in the show notes is Scott's Twitter handle as well so follow him there and and look at his black and white photos there I'd appreciate it yeah anyway don't forget to be a good egg and not a bad apple thanks everybody [Music] bye [Music]